How to Deal With a Narcissist Without Losing Your Mind | The Ripple Effect Podcast

Unknown: Hey, welcome to The Ripple Effect Podcast. I'm your host, Steve Harper, and I've got a question for you. Have you ever walked into a conversation feeling super confident like this is gonna work and you walked out questioning your sanity? Chances are that you probably had a conversation with a narcissist, and I want to talk about that today.

Hey, have you ever found yourself trying to resolve a conflict, or, you know, be in conversation with someone that somehow makes it all about themselves. This is a challenge, and it's one of those things that I think more and more of us are starting to encounter, and I wanted to have a deep dive conversation about this, because I do think that it's it's important. I think people are dealing with it, and I think people are struggling to figure out how to make it work. Sometimes we can't avoid conversations with narcissists.

Sometimes we may be forced to work with these people. They could be our boss, they could be our co worker, they could be that super important client. I think I've checked all the boxes in terms of being exposed or around, in our assistance, in my life and in my work, and it's hard. It's difficult, especially if you're someone like me that's kind of introverted and shy.

It's like you can be a shrinking violet in those circumstances. I asked Google for an official definition, and Google delivered so perfectly because a narcissist, there's a lot of clinical definitions, there's a lot of explanations, there's different types of narcissists. I'm not going to get into all that. What I want to do is talk about what we do when we deal with them, but Google provides this definition based on dictionary.

com. Actually, I think it's the Oxford Dictionary. A person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves. Oh yeah.

Okay, so I got some notes here. I just want to make sure I follow along. So pardon me if you see me looking down a little bit, but I want to talk about in this episode, you know, how you deal with it, right? How do you protect your energy in these conversations?

How do you communicate strategically in those moments? How do you maintain your integrity and not become the shrinking, violent that Steve Harper has done, and become so many times around all these narcissists. And then how do you create a productive outcome when possible? Now here's the key, when possible may not always be possible with a narcissist, but I promise you, if you at least go into that conversation, kind of knowing who you're dealing with, that there may be hope.

Yet, you can't control somebody else's personality, but you can control the Ripple of the interaction with them. And so one of the things that I want to talk about is how to create, well, not one many things I want to talk about is how we create a environment where we can actually sort of coexist with this narcissist, if we can now, you obviously control your environment. One of the things that I would tell you, if I was coaching you would be, do you have to be around this person who rubs you the wrong way that is all about them, all about their drama, not ever concerned or caring about your situation.

It's all about them, right? If you can, the best medicine is to extricate. Extricate yourself from that situation completely. But that may not be possible.

You might be married to this person. You might be dating this person. You might be neighbors with this person, or, you might have to work or depend on your livelihood because of this person. So one of the things that I think that you can do is is look at the circumstances and define.

Am I in a capacity to remove myself? And if not, how do I make the best of a bad situation? Because avoiding these people are probably... it's probably not possible.

You're gonna have to interact, and you're gonna have to engage them. So one of the things is about redefining the goal, right? When you're dealing with a narcissist, the goal for you is not to win, it's not to get them to admit that they are wrong or that they're at fault, because it will never happen, and your job is not to change their personality. And honestly, your job is not to gain their validation.

That is one of the control pieces that I want you to think of. You know, their opinion of you is probably so far down the route the ladder in terms of where they prioritize. Sorry, I'm gonna take a little coffee here before it gets a little too cold. Dang.

I need to hit that microwave. But your goal is to try and make the best of the worst situation that you can. The goal, I think, number one, is to protect your peace. One of the ways that you do that is knowing what you're going into right?

It's like, "Hey, I'm not going to let this person get on under my skin. I'm not going to let them aggravate me." I think being willing to clarify some boundaries about what's acceptable and what's not acceptable, having the confidence and the courage to do that and then trying to move the conversation forward strategically. So if you know going in, this person is going to make it all about them, how can you go into that conversation with a mindset that you're going to eliminate anything where they could use the word I, right?

That means having a game plan, thinking through, "How do I want to cultivate this conversation? How do I want to craft it?" And basically, "How do I do this in a way that helps me accomplish what I need to do, and then really, at the end of the day, lets me leave with my integrity intact?" That's a critical thing.

And I think one of the things that is important to you is when you stop trying to fixate on trying to fix the person, and you start focusing on managing the interaction and create an environment that potentially rebalances the tables of conversation for you, you're actually shifting the power dynamic, which can be often a mind scramble for a narcissist. To be perfectly honest with you, we got to understand the psychology of a narcissist, and I think, you know, I'm not going to go a deep dive.

Freud didn't give me my brief here. They just are a couple of things that I sort of have recognized over the course of my career path in dealing with some of these people that I've sort of figured out and sort of understand the person that I'm going to be engaging with, and sort of figure out how to adapt the rules of the game to apply so that I can take a little bit of their self effacing power away. First of all, people with narcissism or narcissistic tendencies have a need to win, if it's a small conflict, a small problem, or there's a dispute, they will try to win at all costs.

They need admiration in a in and your adoration. They need to, they need you to think that they are the smartest person in the room. But they need your, they need you giving them their flowers, right? You know their credit, they always will avoid accountability.

This is a big, big factor for people with narcissistic tendencies. They don't want to own anything except the win, right? If you come at them with criticism, they are going to react poorly, in fact, probably really strongly, in a very poor way. And I think that they will always try to re steer or reframe the conversation back so that they can make it about them.

So that is one of those key things that you need to know going in. So if I kind of lay the groundwork and kind of understand, you know what it is about this person that makes them show up the way they do. That means that you can do some things differently, because direct confrontation just means we're going to create environment for escalation. If we attack them that we're they're going to perceive that as an attack on their ego, which is going to automatically throw up the walls of defensiveness.

And when we publicly challenge them, like you make them look bad in front of another person or in a meeting, they will declare all out war on you. You don't want that. So understanding this isn't necessarily excusing the behavior Wayne, but it is understanding the rules of the game, and that's strategic awareness, which I think for good communication you sort of need that. I tell that to people that are just out there building their network or integrating into a new team, whether they even know the personalities yet or not, be an observer of them, understand and see how they interact with other people, ask a few questions to see how they respond and react.

In this case, we know that we're dealing with a narcissist, so we know we're like, I would rather just do anything other than get involved in this conversation with them, but I'm going to do it because I have to. You, or I'm legally obligated to you, or whatever. So how do we do that? How do we go about that?

Now that we know what we're dealing with? Well, we need to come up with some strategies to turn the tide in our favor. Now these are not, you know, scientifically proven. These are things that I have employed in my own life dealing with these psycho bastards, no, just kidding with these people who are, let's be honest, they're, they're narcissistic for a reason, right?

There's a reason that they became the way that they did. Maybe their parents didn't love them. Maybe their parents didn't, you know, give them the credit that they thought they deserved, or maybe they got too much credit, maybe to, like, put on a pedestal. And, you know, life just was handed to him.

I know a guy I went to high school with. It is the most narcissistic individual ever, because from the moment he hit the elementary school, he was lauded as probably the god's gift as an athlete, and everything sort of fell lock and step for him, which then gave him the empowerment to act like a horse's ass. So fortunately, I don't have to deal with him on a daily basis or even talk to him for any length of time, which means that I don't have to come up with these strategies to have a conversation with him.

But if I did, if I did, these are some things that I would suggest, first and foremost, don't call them out, don't attack their identity. Focus on your outcomes. Instead of, like, saying things like, you always make everything about yourself. That's a direct, immediate attack.

It's also our defense mechanism. Like, I don't know how we started talking about, you know, pink kerfuffles, but somehow you turn it into a deal about you, like you were the inventor of the pink kerfuffle. Doing that just backs them into a corner, which means all you're setting yourself up for is a fight or war. But what you do is, instead of say something like that, here's what needs to happen to move forward like you're kind of taking the attention and the focus off of them when they start to generate it back towards them, like I, I was the one who decided we would bring in the pink kerfuffles.

Look at me. I am the greatest. You got to shift that right. Like, hey, here's what needs to happen so that we can take advantage of those pink kerfuffles to maximize our productivity and get some wins for us as a team.

I don't know what a pink kerfuffle is. I'm just making it up as I go, but you're basically shifting right now the emotional accusation into a solution oriented clarity, right, creating a plan saying it's not about you, it's about the pink kerfuffles, and it's how everybody else in the company is going to use the pink kerfuffles. I have no idea why I came up with this pink kerfuffle situation, but we're gonna run with it. Okay, use calm.

And I, I hesitate to use this word, because people have different definitions of neutral language. But you know, emotion fuels a spiral, and it's a downward spiral in a big, big way when we in our in high anxiety conversations. So the first thing that you have to do, and it's one of the important risk pool disciplines Anyway, before you go into any great conversation, is to regulate yourself. First check in, calm yourself.

Recognize that this isn't a battle, it's a challenge. Recognize that this has the potential to have a positive outcome if you lead it there, understand they're going to say and do some things that are gonna annoy the shit out of you, and that's okay. It's temporary, right? And say to yourself things like, I want this to work.

I have to have this work. I want to focus only on the outcome. You know, the pink kerfuffle is a priority for us. We need to figure it out.

We need to know how to leverage it. I need to focus on what the outcome of this conversation is, which is, how do the two of us come together to figure out a strategy for deploying the pink kerfuffle? And I still think that is a bad example, but we're going to continue to run with it, and then it's about helping me understand their way of thinking and their way of approaching things. Because when I can do that, when I can actually start to understand as I walk into that conversation, then I can start to say things and do things a little bit different that is important, because regulating yourself not only calms your nervous system, but also sets yourself at ease.

It helps you understand how to show up with neutral but open body language, as opposed to like, Oh my God, he's gonna go off on that again, I found myself having this situation. You. Yesterday was someone who just always goes into way too much detail about something, and I could feel my eyes rolling in the back of my head, and I stopped myself. I got myself back focused, concentrated.

Listen to the words they were saying, and I know because my body language was not saying, oh my god, I'm not going to get to get to see another thing for another five minutes. It actually started to stem the tide a little bit. I got to be honest with you. I wouldn't say they're necessarily a crazy narcissist, but they do have some narcissistic tendencies, and so I was able to control myself so that I could control my reaction to the situation.

So one of the other ways to do this is to feed a little bit of their ego, little bit, little bit, without losing the integrity of yourself or the situation. This one really surprises a lot of people, because they think, oh my gosh, you know, why would you, why would you lean into that? Well, you don't have to flatter them dishonestly. But if this individual, in this case, brought in the suggestion of the pink kerfuffle, maybe they did all the legwork to get the pink kerfuffle implemented or started.

You know, there's nothing wrong with recognizing that. You know, it was such a great idea for you to bring in the pink kerfuffle. Now, let's find a way collectively to figure out how to leverage it so that everybody, everybody, everybody understands how to make it work. And so that's, you know, that's a big factor.

The other one would be, you can acknowledge their strengths to lower their defenses. You know, you had such great vision to bring in the pink kerfuffle. Man, I would never in a million years thought of that, and you think the team would have thought, right, no way had to be you. Now, all of a sudden, you are playing into your hand, not theirs, because you're they're not having to tell you how great they are, because you're sort of already telling them that.

And I think that's a huge, huge, huge, huge thing, I would say, being in a position to be able to tell somebody that they are really good at seeing the big picture, recognizing situations as they evolve, seeing where and why we are doing something, giving them a little bit of credit can be really powerful. And whatever that positive is that you're going to share with them, what you're going to do immediately following that is then you are going to say. And what I would like is to get your input on this.

How do we implement what do you suggest? How do you think we should do it, focused on the outcome, the objective, not them as much, right? We're shifting it. When someone feels respected, recognized, acknowledged, they often become less reactive, even a narcissist.

And this is tactical generosity, not surrender on your part, this is probably pointing out some things that are actually accurate and true. And true that you for a million years would never want to publicly acknowledge. But by doing so, you are creating an avenue of opportunity, an opportunity for them to be like, oh, you know, always like that, Steve guy, you know, he's one of the only people out of all these idiots that know a little know who I am and what I'm about, he gets me and narcissists when they feel they're gotten, have less tendency to actually display their narcissistic behavior to somebody that they have now, sort of internally put on a different level of respect.

Now you may have people that will then go off the reservations, and they will send up their little their little test balloon. Sorry, this thing's beeping because we got another camera that just went dead. Should have checked it, but they actually kind of like, oh, wait, wait, wait, what's going on here? Right?

Yeah, nobody ever agrees with me, and everybody, like, runs from me, and this doesn't seem like it's going well, and so I need to do something, say something, create a situation so that I could try to get back control, wrangle it back and make it about me. So don't take that bait. You know when this starts to happen and you see them putting up those test balloons, or they're saying something for effect, or they're trying to do something to derail the conversation, redirect it back into the objective.

Understand, you know that they are trying to create a sense of superiority in these situations, and that becomes a problem. I think what you do is, is you don't take when they start to, like, take it off the track. Don't take that bait. They may throw blame your way.

They may well, you know, I had such a good idea to bring the pink kerfuffle in, but it was you that was responsible for implementing it. Nobody likes it because you didn't do a good job selling it right. Be easy for. Us to start putting on our gloves.

Get ready for the box boxing match that is going to ensue, right? Don't do that. And then there's the gaslighting. Like the gaslighting is like, oh my gosh, like they are trying to make you feel like you're the idiot in this situation.

Narcissists are freaking gifted at this, right? Always flipping the script in that regard, and then somehow, some way, they will bring up something is so unrelated to the pink kerfuffle. But like, you know, seven weeks ago, on a Tuesday, when you were actually supposed to deliver on that project, you dropped the ball so bad, and you made us look like such an idiot in front of the client. They're trying to take you off your game.

It's part of their narcissistic credo. They want to be able to wrangle back to control in the present day situation by trying to make you distracted or defensive, to take you off your game. So don't do it. So what do you do?

What's your move in those situations? Return specifically to the issue, commonly, what's our goal? What's our objective? Can we address all that stuff?

Maybe later. It sounds like you got some issues with me or some problems. Sorry about that thing that happened seven weeks ago, but that's not what we're here to talk about right now. We need to stay on point and focus on the pink kerfuffle.

And you're taking away all that power. And they're like, but, but, but, I was trying to land body shots, and it didn't happen. And what it is, is it's a state change, right? You're basically scratching that record where they can't continue to play the tune the way they want to play it.

You're basically being like, hey, look, if you got issues, you want to talk about the project, or you want to talk about, you know, any of those other things that you raise fantastic. None of that has anything to do with the pink kerfuffle thing. So let's get back on the point. Let's focus on that.

But I'd be happy to have that conversation with you later about the other thing, they freak out. Okay, Use I statements strategically, not like you're being unfair. You are being unfair. But I feel dismissed with decisions, when decisions are made without my input.

And you're trying to, you know, leverage strategy around the kerfuffle here, right? The pink kerfuffle, but you're not really including me. And like you said, you were the brilliant genius to acquire it and to bring it into service here. And my job and role is to get it implemented and get it going, and I need your help in order to do that.

So you're bringing them to the same side of the desk with you, but you are limiting their ability to make it all about them, right? So focus less on you in the I statements that involve you, but find a way to actually make it more strategically aligned with the conversation that you are intending to have. That's a huge factor, and it kind of lowers their attack energy, or lowers the possibility that they can sink their teeth into something, because you're taking away all that power, but it's still stating, you know, where your mission is, what your goal is, what your objective is, and that has an impact as to what happens next.

So the other thing is really to look at these conversations with setting boundaries without creating unnecessary drama. Boundaries aren't emotional speeches. They're not like, okay, every single time that we get together, you do this, this and this, blame, you know, shame, you know you don't, don't do that. You say things in a way that basically says, hey, look, if you're not prepared to have this conversation, or you're not ready to have this conversation, or you're not willing to step up to the plate to help me implement our, you know, our strategy here, then that's cool.

That's cool. We're gonna agree to like table this for right now, put attack in it, or stick a pin in it, or whatever one of those phrases is. And we'll come back to that in a time that's a little bit more comfortable for you, and you just remove yourself from the situation and rather than allow them to take over or attack you, I always say, hey, you know, it clearly is not a good time. Seems like you're having a bad day.

You got a lot on your plate. Let's revisit this later, and you just skedaddle. Do that in a way that basically doesn't, like, kick them, you know, squarely in the butt, but at the end of the day takes away their ability to address it like, you know, at the end, if they have no power, they can't attack. They can't make it about them.

Then they don't, they don't really have that fourth leg of the stool to sit on, right? So they're still super wobbly, and that may just be enough to be like, What? No, no, no, I'm I'm fine. You know, you know, let's, we're going to talk about the pink crook.

Let's, let's get it done. Let's get it done, right? But that's the key thing, right? No threats, no volume, just clarity, right?

That's what you're doing. And if they can't be respectful in the moment, then just remove yourself. And one of the things that I always tell people, especially in team dynamics, it's the biggest ripple you can do. Be firm, but be kind and be clear, right?

Those three things in any conversation, whether you're dealing with a narcissist or anybody in general, is just kind of a good way to go about it. So last, a couple last points here is make sure that when you're going to have this conversation, you would choose the right environment, don't hey, I want to talk about the pink kerfuffle, and then they're like, Fine, stop by my cubicle, or come into my office, or whatever. No, find a neutral setting, maybe preferably a public setting.

Hey, I was thinking we could talk about that pink kerfuffle. Do you mind? I was about to go on a walk around the building. Why don't you join me?

Or how about we meet at 1230 after everybody's done in the lunchroom. Or let's meet at or near the coffee pot, and then we'll grab a table and have a conversation. Find a setting that's away from where they feel the most comfortable created in an environment where it's the most public. Because the one thing narcissists don't like is unnecessary attention.

Believe it or not, they're all about the attention, but they don't like public attention that they don't control, right? So they don't want to be in an environment where they can't actually control the narrative or what people are thinking about being talked about or said to them. And so public setting is a really, really, really good thing. Also, the audience dynamics is really important.

If this is going to be a one on one conversation, that's great. If it's going to be in a community of or a committee of some sort, or, you know, in a small group, understand what the dynamics are, maybe even brief the group about what you're planning on doing, so that this conversation gets the maximum output you can get, and that we can stimmy the tide of the narcissist as best as we possibly can. And then avoid any situation where their ego is amplified, right? I always find that people like to be around people that laud them, or people that you know have to like sing their praises, you know, because they feel, you know they feel afraid not to.

And so that's why you know being around an environment where people are sucking up or reaffirming the power dynamic that this narcissist might have is not a good idea, right? Which is why, trying to get it outside of, like, the fishbowl of, you know, their team, or finding a neutral site or place to, you know, to have the conversation where you don't have people coming by and be like, Hey, man, what's going on? Well, great job on coming up with that pink kerfuffle thing. And they look at you like, why are we not implementing it yet.

You don't want to do that, because that just builds their power position and it makes you look like a bonehead. Here's the thing, I think, know when the goal is distance, not agreement, and this is really critical, right? So some conversations will never be productive, but in business and leadership, sometimes your win is about limiting exposure, creating systems instead of emotional appeals, and changing communication channels, right? The goal there, and what I mean by this, is that it's Oh, getting as far away from their narcissistic behavior as possible.

And maybe sometimes we won't get on the same page, we won't see eye to eye, but we're going to find a path forward regardless. And what you're trying to do is you're trying to limit the damage that they can cause, because you if you it'd be easy to just ignore them and say, I'm going to go and figure out the solution myself. But then they have a story to tell everyone else that you didn't include them, or it was their great idea, but they weren't part of the implementation team.

They weren't part of the PTA committee, whatever the environment is, right? So you want to limit that exposure. You want to give them an opportunity to have a seat at the table, but you also are kind of laying the groundwork here about how and what is going to be expected and what is going to be tolerated as far as behavior, and then you're basically focused on creating the solution, or the system to create the solution, not just being like, Come on, man, you got to get behind this, because, you know, you brought it in, and you know that you need to be on board, because everybody else is going to look to you because you brought it in.

You know, you're you're basically changing that power dynamic. You're giving them too much credit. So you don't really want to do that. You don't want to, like, do any emotional appeals there.

And then maybe it makes sense just to change how you communicate, right? Hey, let's talk about this. Let's set some priorities and. Then from here, I think we can accomplish everything through email or slack, so that you can avoid, you know, any unnecessary Riff Raff that occurs or happens.

So that's something definitely to consider. So, you know, I think that there are a couple of critical points there that I think really, really help and make a huge, difference. I would be curious to see what you think, because, you know, these are these are things that have worked for me. These are strategies that I've learned and tried to perfect over the years.

But, you know, sometimes not every stone needs to be thrown in every pond. You're not going to ripple with everybody. You're not going to win them over. They're not always going to be the nicest, friendliest people in the world.

That's not going to happen. But I think that when you do that, what you're doing is you're you're bringing your A game to the table, right? Which actually leads me to the other part, which is sort of understanding how and why you want to do this, which is really sort of creating barriers to protect your own energy, your own emotional fortitude, because these conversations have an emotional toll. They can be exhausting.

And the thing that I think that is really important for you as you're hearing this and thinking about your own circumstances, is it's not your job to manage somebody else's ego, right? Despite what you might think, that is not the responsibility you signed up for, even if you're employed to work with a narcissistic, egomaniac boss, it's not your job to manage their ego. It's not your job to fix them personally, which I think, as a fixer myself, that becomes a real hard one for me, because I want to get people to like me.

I want people to get along. I want to collaborate with people, and I want to show people a better way than just being difficult or always making it about themselves. But not every person is fixable, right? So I need to be cognizant of that, that I can sort of set some ground rules.

I can set the environment, the situation in in motion as best as I can to try and have the best possible outcome, but I may have to take some losses along the way, and one of those losses will be, I may not ever get across to this person what they're doing or how they're doing it. I may not be able to change them in any way, and this is the most important that I may never convince them of my value, right? I might be the implementer for the pink kerfuffle. I might be the person that was chosen by the CEO to implement that, but they will never respect or give me any due acknowledgement, because it's just not possible.

So why I would worry about whether they value me or they respect me, or appreciate me is really giving way more power, my power away than I should. What you are responsible for is, however, the ripple that you create in every opportunity to engage with this person. Did you bring your best to that table? Did you do your level best to make it as best a possible outcome and you possibly can have in conversation with this narcissist, which means you have to control your tone, you have to know your boundaries, and you really have to understand how to leave yourself with self respect.

Don't give up on yourself, because that is one of the most important things to do. So that, that I think is probably the biggest factor, is that I want to be able to say that I gave my all I did my best. May not have worked out the way I expected it or wanted it, but I at least went down fighting right. I went down doing the very best that I could, and I can walk away from this situation with integrity and appreciation for it.

So narcissists are everywhere. Oh, my God, they're everywhere. But they are. They are probably one of the most interesting challenges that we'll have to ripple with.

But if you can turn them, you could do, man, you're doing God's work right there. Let's just say it, you're doing some really, really good stuff. And I have, in my own experience, turned several narcissists into really good friends, people that I could have just easily wanted to strangle or hate on for the rest of my life. But I tried these things, they worked, and the payoff was worth the pain.

So I hope you'll give it a try. I hope you'll let me know how it goes. Hope you enjoy a little deeper dive on the solo podcast. Let me know your thoughts.

Let me know how you've dealt with narcissists in the past. Leave comments on our YouTube channel, Spotify, I think now has comments on the podcast, and if there was anything that really stood out to you and that you're gonna go try, I would love to hear from you. So drop me a line. Steve at ripples central.

com, but I don't want to make this about me. I want to make it about you. I. Want to have a positive outcome.

So I'm not accusing you of being a narcissist, by the way. I'm just saying but thanks for listening. Thanks for being here. Thanks for paying attention to this.

Thanks for being a part of this journey and this ride. If you like this great content, please be sure to share it. Let people know. Check out this podcast, not only for when Steve does these very in you know, few and far between solo podcasts, but he's got some amazing guests, and don't forget to check out our subscriber channels on Patreon, sub stack, and of course, our Connect and grow ripple coaching program.

Until next time, my friends, don't be a narcissist, and if you do find one, be a good rippler and ripple away with that narcissist. Till next time, Ripple On!!!