How to Forgive Yourself & Break the Cycle of Regret with Shawn Mahshie

Welcome back to The Ripple Effect Podcast. I'm your host, Steve Harper, and I am so grateful that you are joining us for this episode. I'm grateful that you joined for any episode. To be perfectly honest with you, I want to share my deep, deep, deep appreciation for you joining this show.

Whether you are catching us on the podcast platforms, we're on all of them, I think, pretty much, or you're catching this on YouTube, and my face does not scare you away. I want you to know what an honor and a privilege it is to do this work, to share my ideas and thoughts about The Ripple Effect with you. Use this as a platform to highlight and showcase not only my thoughts, but also the thoughts of some of the most amazing guests that you could ever possibly imagine being connected to.

I am just so grateful and deeply honored that we are able to bring such amazing people that are out there, making a difference in their leadership style, growing their own companies, spreading their own brand or version of the Ripple. I don't take it lightly, and I believe that this work is something that is super important and so critical for me to be doing. And I just feel so blessed that we have such interest in this show that so many people are clamoring to get on with number one, which is super, super cool, and number two, that we have you guys as our loyal audience who join us every time we drop an episode.

So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

One big ask for you, however, is Spotify, I believe, and Apple both give you the option to leave reviews on these podcasts, which helps us grow the show, grow the audience, and if you'd be so kind as to say a few words about what your experience has been listening to The Ripple Effect Podcast, I would greatly appreciate it. And that would be option one or or ask number one. Number two. Ask Number Two.

Feel like you can. Monty Hall, okay, behind door number two. Door number three, no. Door number two, ask number two, I digress, would be to spread the word, help us get as much exposure to this as we possibly can, because that actually promotes and supports our amazing guests that we invite on here, and so when you share it on social media, whether that be X, whether it be Instagram, TikTok, whether it be Facebook, LinkedIn, links to our show and the amazing guests, and what you're learning from them through these interviews, highlighting those things and even tagging them is just such a huge value to us and to them, and they appreciate it.

We appreciate it. So thank you for doing it. So today, my friends, let's say I was kind of blown away by Shawn Mahshie joining us today. Shawn is an author.

She is a consultant and a coach, and she is a woman who is doing some deep, deep, deep, deep work, specifically around challenges that women face because of her own unique environment and situation led her down the path of the work she's doing today and how critical and important Preview: "And I got up and quietly, went into the bathroom, sat in the cloth with tub in that bed and breakfast, and cried the hardest I've probably ever cried in my life. It was relief, in a way, the part of me that realized what I had, how much I had been abandoning myself, and that glimmer of I know I'm going to come home to myself, to this thing I now call self solidarity..."

But I got to tell you, man, go through this interview, I went back and listened to my part. I really brought my A-game here, because much of what she's talking about really resonated with me, because some of the trauma and challenges that even guys face in the topics that we talk about today. You know, we just don't talk enough about it. And I think women don't talk enough about it.

I don't think men ever talk about it, because we are clueless in a lot of ways. Sorry, guys, but it's true, and women, when you do talk about it, man, there's some substance to it. There's some power and some some oomph to it. But it is hard.

It's a difficult topic to explore, and I think Shawn brings this to the table in such a beautiful, beautiful way, it has led her to the work that she's doing through her book. It's letting led her down the path of building a model that even a simpleton like me can follow and understand, and she just brings an energy and enthusiasm to the table. So I think you're gonna love this interview with Shawn Mahshie. So with no further ado, let's dive in to The Ripple Effect Podcast with Miss Shawn Mahshie.

[INTRO] Guys, I am super excited to have Shawn Mahshie join me today for The Ripple Effect Podcast. Shawn, how are you doing today? Great. It's been so fun meeting you Steve and seeing our common Rippling, Ripple Effects out there.

I am super pumped for this conversation, because you are doing some really, really interesting work. I love engaging with other coaches, people that are out there that are living and working from a heart centered approach, and so I can't wait to dive in. But before we do tell us, tell us where we find your feet today. Where are you?

Where are you calling in from? Today, I'm calling in from my it's actually got a name, the sparkling, skylit flat in my Chesapeake paradise, which is not only where I live, but where I hold my retreats, on the Chesapeake Bay, about 45 minutes from Washington, DC, south of Annapolis, Maryland. I love that. So how long have you lived there?

26 years, and for 23 of it, I had a beautiful dream that I mean, even people who live around here come to this very country like two acres and opens it's on a creek with lots of wildlife, but opens out to the very sparkly Chesapeake Bay, and we get both sunrises and sunsets. And so I knew there needed to be a bigger, you know, my vision of a house that was equal to the setting. And so it was a 23 year dream of gradually coming through a difficult time in my life, knowing what was going to be, helping people, holding the vision, fixing up what we could when we could, and partnering with so many people and eventually transformed it into that vision.

Even a lot of stumbling blocks that I would share with my groups, sometimes stumbling blocks. Mean, okay, listen to that. It's pushing you in another direction. But the vision kept being there.

So I stayed with it for 23 years, until we got that beautiful, you know, transformation of this house, good for you. I love that. I I am quite envious. I told my wife that I was interviewing you today, and that you are living the dream that I have for myself and for us to have a space where we can do retreats and bring people in.

Because I think that just reading in, you know, some of my research about what you're doing and the work that you do, there's something really magical about taking people outside of their normal elements, right? And bringing them into nature, much like what you're doing with your your specific retreat space, and getting them to really connect with a totally different experience than they're accustomed to. What was the you said it was kind of 23 years in the making, and you've been doing it for quite a while now.

What was the impetus of that inspiration, for that idea to actually create the retreat center, or the retreat space? Well, and just so you know, we we are doing online groups year round and have a vibrant community. But you're right, because they it's such a safe space when we each do this work which keeps us on our own side of the street and gives us tools to know how well. I call it the symmetry principle, whatever upsets you is holding the key to your path out of it.

So the people in the groups and retreats know how to do that too, so that safe space online is just so much more fun than when people come here and get to know each other and new people feel they're part of it within about a half hour, because the process itself is so safe and levels the playing field, we See that we're all sharing the same stressful thinking, and we finally know what to do with it. So. So coming back then to your question, I yeah, that 23 years include or 26 years included the big life crash, where I actually came here originally with a husband and a high powered Washington job.

I had written a book and was speaking internationally on stages and making big changes in my field, which at the time was deaf education, masters in sign language, linguistics, really, and, yeah, yeah. And, and yet, you know, I'm sort of a paradigm shifter at heart, right? Sort of able to see where the field wants to go next. And, and yet, the field wasn't ready, so I was kind of dragging it kicking and screaming behind me, as well as a stressful marriage that I didn't have the tools I.

Have today, I might still be married if I had but anyway, so my life crashed in every way, pretty much, first my health, then had to leave that career and another book in process, and then my marriage. So it was about 10 years of a lot of seeking. I had already done a lot of counseling, but after that, a lot more nutrition, energy work, spiritual work of every kind, you know, acupuncture, 12 step programs, all of it, and I still didn't really get better emotionally or physically, until I found actually, it started with the Work of Byron Katie, which helped me really understand how to handle resentment, fear, feeling like a victim of other people's choices or actions, but then I was still beating myself up, so that's where I stumbled into the wheel of self forgiveness that I wanted to talk more about today.

Yes, I'm excited to dive into that work. I'm I am curious, what was the as you were going through it? Because there's, um, there's so much to unpack there with what you just shared. But when you were going through it, what was there one or two things that you that were sort of defining moments for you that said, hey, this, this is why I need to make the change, or this is what I need to do in order to self heal or to get myself out of the circumstance that I'm in.

And obviously that's very broad, right, in terms of whatever the circumstance might be, whether it be your marriage or, you know, unfulfilled career or or just the challenges of trying to, you know, sort of heal yourself in in that period of your life. But I'm curious, was there it was there a defining moment or two that you can now look back and go, Oh, maybe I didn't see it or recognize it at that at that time, but I now see it as I could really, you know, plant a flag on that being a milestone that really changed, you know, the direction or my attitude, or just my actual shift and where I wanted to go with my life.

Yes, most definitely. And first of all, as I work so much with women, both intimately in my private and executive coaching but also in groups, I see these processes where so often it's waking up to wait a minute now that I'm getting to this higher level of self, love and not and getting through the codependence it has us turning ourselves into a pretzel to please, placate, accept treatment we don't really want to agree to. And as there's a waking up to that, there's still, as I was very committed to the relationship I was in and making an effort to change, and nothing seemed to fix those dynamics.

Whereas sometimes with this work, it goes in the direction of as we fix these dynamics within ourselves, everything changes, including the other person, their behavior and so lots of times that's enough to clear it up there. But if it's not, there are still those efforts people make to negotiate for what they want and need to really over. First of all, we overcome the fear of negotiating for it because that, you know, our littlest selves often, we're not trained at all to ask for what we want.

But then I see the women going through these stages of getting closer and closer. And finally, it's always sort of, well, when, when do I leave? And you know when you leave is when you see yourself going out the door, basically, because all the thinking about it, it's there's something come together when you know, however, for me, there are two transformational moments, both happening in bathtubs. So I kind of a mermaid at heart anyway.

One is just after that big life crash with my health, and then having left my job and feeling like, oh, maybe, you know, I'm getting a little better, maybe things are going to be okay. And went away with my husband and started to have some hope that maybe I wasn't going to need to leave and we were going to be okay. And just really turning myself over to that weekend of bicycling and and then private here. But after making love, I don't even remember what he said, but he said something where I know I went, it's not him.

Yeah, he's not the hero I've been waiting for. He can't, he can't be what I'm looking for. And and I got up and quietly went into the to the bathroom, sat in the claw foot tub, in that bed and breakfast and. I cried the hardest I've probably ever cried in my life.

And it wasn't even it was it was relief, in a way, the part of me that realized what I had, how much I had been abandoning myself, and that glimmer of I know I'm going to come home to myself to this thing I now call self solidarity. But it was another 10 years before I really found the self solidarity. But I had a glimpse of it there and and I came down the steps being so confident and glowing. And we have a picture of me, and I always put it near the picture of my daughter the I caught her the first time she stood up in her crib, and her face was like, you know, and even my husband was like, What's going on with you?

You're glowing. So, so that was a big turning point of saying, No, I've got to put myself first no matter what. But still, didn't really have the tools. Tons of fear going through the divorce that I stayed sick still for a long time, was on disability for 15 years, and so, yeah, so there was that, and I can tell the second one, but if you had any comments about that one, or what I said about the women and the waking up stages, yeah, well, I would like to make a comment or two.

First and foremost, I just want to acknowledge just how honest and how powerful that is, that you experience that, and you were willing to share that today. So thank you for that. We really appreciate that. What a gift and the inspiration, I think, for a lot of our audience will be understanding that, you know, even in those moments of uncertainty, in maybe certain circumstances where you're trying to make the, you know, the square peg fit in the round hole.

You know that, you know, once you have that awakening, that moment where you recognize that, no, this is not going to work, or maybe I'm no longer going to put up with or tolerate my circumstances remaining unchanged. That is, you know, that's that you're laying the foundation for what's to come, and the power of that. So I think that is, I think that's incredibly inspiring. So my hat's off to you for that, but I would love to hear the second one, you know, the second defining moment.

Because, man, the first was a was a killer, yeah? And the second one, well, you, as an entrepreneur, know what it's like to really care about your message and wanting so much to get it out there. And as a new entrepreneur, I was really schooled by somebody that was about big mailing lists and big broadcasts and affiliates and big events and stuff like that. Even though I, you know, I wasn't very far into it, there was probably a little bit of a backwards approach, because I ended up doing it the right way, which is one on one private, then small groups, then larger groups, then moving into the really big global message that I want to share.

However, that night I had been leading up, I was about to do a webinar, and you know, you're told to promote these things with X number of emails. And we worked so hard on that email, and then I hit send on that email and went up, here was a February morning snow or evening snow falling outside, I celebrated with a bubble bath, and I sunk down in the tub, and I went into my chronic state for much of my life, my mind would always find one thing that I could regret, and just like it always hits me in the stomach, and I was just in hell, and I was so used to that, and I didn't ever know all these years, all the spiritual teachers, all the counselors, all that no one had ever taught me a way to relieve myself, I just thought, well, I'm going to be stuck with this thing I Call regret hell for the rest of my life, because I, you know, I'll talk about this later, but a number of us really got wired for that.

Yeah, there are people that are wired for the external judgment, and that's kind of hell for them, too. And those wired in any situation which is your go to, well, they're the internal judges and the external judges and and there's we all have both. So nobody's better or worse than the other. But what's your primary go to is mine was that turn on myself.

Second guess my decisions go straight to worst case scenario and operate out of fear of that, and turn on myself and and just almost like replay movies of woulda, shoulda, coulda, if only I had and now they're going, you know, they're all they think I've sent too many emails. I should have waited till morning. You know, I'm gonna lose all the newcomers the. The old comers are are tired of hearing from me, just every you know how your mind just gives you all of that so but the different outcome in this moment was that I didn't stay there like normally.

I could lose a night's sleep. I could think back on that moment and still get a flood of adrenaline over this thing I would regret any, any regrettable thing. I was an expert. I call myself queen of regret hell.

So in that time, for some reason, the combination of what I had done in waking up myself to my thinking through becoming certified as a certified facilitator of the Work of Byron Katie, something, there's only a few, and, you know, less than about 150 of us in the world. And that process, at some point, I was still turning on myself, but something came together and I was able to make the shift, and I was like, oh, okay, I'm fine. And then I was like, I sat there, and I thought, What did I do?

And the thing that I figured out that I did became the three steps of the wheel of self forgiveness. At first. I called it antidote to regret. I worked with it with my clients for a year, and then made it into an e book called The Wheel of self love.

But I really wanted to go beyond the general term of self love, even though some of my clients are like, Yeah, but that's what it brings you to, is self love. But I felt like, no, these people who were like me that are beating themselves up, oh my goodness, are in so much pain, and it usually ends up in autoimmune disorders where your body follows suit and turns on you failed relationships, you know, not moving forward because they're not trusting themselves. So anyway, eventually I changed the name to wheel of self forgiveness.

And actually, that's what's coming out as a book I show you my little advanced reader copy. But yeah, those three steps, you know, they haven't failed me yet, and that changed my life completely, and the lives of anyone who has found it. That really works, it is like finally, I've got to ask you when, when that moment happened and you didn't allow yourself, yourself to stay in that state. Clearly, it was one of the defining moments, because you shared it with us.

But at the end of the day, how did it feel in that moment when you recognized, oh, I would normally stay here, but now I'm moving over into this, this, this new version of myself. And I can look back at what I would have done, or have always done, or would have been more comfortable doing, and now I am taking a very gigantic step forward. What did that feel like in the moment? If you don't mind me asking, it's interesting, because in the moment I I felt it, but I don't think I really believed it, yeah, but, but as it's I started, it started to take root in my life, in I could use it in any situation, and it worked.

And that's one of them was even with, with a carpenter, and my and my friend who came by, they were putting together a bed and and they were, they were feeling shame internally for not being able to figure it out. One of them put it together wrong. The other came over to help him undo it, and he couldn't figure it out either. And yet, somehow, the chronic thing was to make me the scapegoat.

Oh, why did you buy this stupid bed? This? This? This is such a piece of junk, why do you know?

And then, and they needed a screwdriver. So I was walking around the house, and right away I know why I bought it. I researched it for a long time. It's the perfect solution.

I didn't buy into the fact that I was a problem, and that's what, I didn't beat myself up for buying that bed. I didn't, you know, I and that's happening all the time. And I think that kind of self abandonment gets wired so early when we have a reactive parent, a situation where they are so in their emotion that we're we are abandoned by them and will do anything to get them back, and because they're often unconfrontable, it wouldn't be safe to point the finger at Wait a minute, this isn't my fault.

You know, this is your stuff. Let me go out and play. But we don't go out and play. We we take those survival reactions, usually we can't fight or flee, so we freeze and fawn when we become little.

Fawn is maybe the lesser known of those survival reactions, where like when a dog turns on its back for the the. Alpha Dog. It's like, I'll do anything. Somehow this is my fault.

I'm going to turn on myself. I'm going to believe you when you're blaming me or others. So yeah, that's that started to actually turn around in every way possible, and becomes this mad love affair for the rest of my life. I know, you know, between that and the whole no matter what way that I developed, it does incorporate The Work of Byron Katie for those situations of kind of pointing the finger outward and the wheel of self forgiveness for inward.

So between those two, I know I'll be okay no matter what. So that's why I called it the no matter what way. Rather than telling it the method or approach, it was a true personal paradigm shift, a true New Way of Life, which I believe is true for most of my clients, even those most counselors, coaches, people that have been on the long journey and have that shift also. I think that's why your work.

And of course, this forthcoming book is so important, because especially for women, I think because, you know, and not to generalize, but I think women are cultured in a lot of ways, at least in this country, to fawn a lot, because the circumstances or the challenges or the issues that they're often at the heart of feeling like they're the ones to blame, but they're also feeling like the ones that have to figure out the solution, fix it, but not overstepping the boundaries, because other people have put the, you know, put the boundaries on them.

And I think what, what you discovered in that moment with the bed, like, hey, screw you guys, right? This is the bed I chose. This is the one I figured out. And I didn't tell you to put it together, wrong?

I was not my mistake that you did. I think that was a huge, huge step forward for you to be able to say, like, let me reclaim my power, not only in the fact that I bought this because I researched it and I, I went through those motions to determine this is what was best for me. But at the end of the day, your problem does not have to become my problem, right? You know, we may have to still try to arrive at the solution together.

But at the end of the day, the fact that you didn't just immediately fawn and say, My I'm so sorry. I wish this was so difficult, or, you know, make excuses or apologize for the circumstance, but to step into your power there. And what I can tell on screen with you is, as you are telling that story, you just see it happen with your physical body. The power came, you know, comes through in your eyes, your expression, your body language.

And I just think that is just pure gold. And so for those of you that are only going to hear this on the podcast, you got to go check this one out and watch the YouTube, because you definitely want to see what I'm talking about, because you can see it in Sean's body language, just as she as she was experiencing that story she shared with us, the power brought back to her even in that moment. So well done. Yeah, and you're so right about I believe that men are hard on themselves in a different way, and we're held to very high standards, sometimes even in the same family, my dad, sweetest guy in the world, held my brother to much stricter standards and me made him toughen up in ways that he didn't with my sister and I, and what I was gonna say about that thing, in addition to not apologizing and making it better for them, the big thing was that I also didn't turn on myself, because that could have been a for the rest of my life.

Whenever I'm in that bed, I could have been, Oh, why did I buy this bed? You know, kind of thing, or if it or if it went badly, see, that's one of the things I talked about in the book, is how outcome driven regret is it either you're going along fine, and then all of a sudden something doesn't go the way you planned, or somebody's mad, or somebody's uncomfortable, and instantly taking over responsibility for it and blaming ourselves, and even in a circumstance where you can't actually do anything To fix it.

I think that that's a really relevant point, because I think owning an understanding of that, I think, is a really big factor that I want my audience to hear. Because how many times, if you think back, let's just say, in the course of the last year, how many times have you personally taken responsibility for something that you really didn't have to own? You didn't, it wasn't your fault. It wasn't your your circus, right?

Not your monkeys. Wasn't your circus, right? But at the end of the day, we feel like there's some sort of obligation to own it. And I think what you're saying is really, really powerful, and I want to make sure that our audience hears that, because I think women, especially.

Experience this, but also think, like you said, Men do too in a different way, but we still end up self loathing in it when, when it occurs and and it can really cost you in so many ways. Like you said, physically, it can have impacts on your health, but it can also just undermine the hell out of your confidence about where you go from that moment forward, right? And I want to, I want to hit on two things. One is about conditions and comparisons.

But one is to say, to make it really clear that this state that I discovered, and that, you know, the self solidarity solution, is kind of the name of the overarching thing that everything fits under here. And we, I have a book coming out by that name later, too, of the much deeper, almost textbook, like where I go so deep into regret, self doubt, self hatred, one of the big collateral benefits is this is healing indecision. So I can come back to that too. But what, based on what you were saying, I want to make sure everybody knows two things about this state of self solidarity and the act of forgiving yourself.

Is not selfish. It's not self serving. The way this works is that when you go in and find your own innocence and you're okay, I'm getting choked that point, you're able to stand with by and for yourself no matter what, like you never were before, just never, just was trained out of us we are when we're babies, and it's amazing how early people learn. Can't do that.

Got to become invisible. Gotta do whatever I need to do to to make this work. But when you learn, when you embrace self solidarity, when you stand with by and for yourself and see your own innocence. You embrace the innocence of others too.

You're able to support what they want as much as what you want and and raise the whole problem solving game to the next higher level. So you know, self forgiveness, self solidarity means you actually come to the table as an equal negotiator, but you also want them to come to the table and create Win Win outcomes. The whole win lose paradigm that's out there is completely not necessary. It's just that we weren't wired.

We, most people, were never taught these things. I call it the missing piece, P, E, A, C, E, we were never taught so so many people and things show up as the enemy, as the cause of our internal suffering, when in fact, they're not. It's what we're thinking and believing. It's the way we've gotten wired and affirming over all that which has been out there in the spiritual space for a while now, keeping your focus only on the positive outcomes and shutting down any negativity really doesn't work.

It's like a little kid who's scared of something, and you just push them away and say, Oh, that's not a problem. They're going to hug your leg and scream louder. So what we're doing is bringing up the actual scary thoughts and beliefs, holding them and finding the symmetry in them. It's through two really simple processes, the work in the will of self forgiveness, which create the no matter what way that it's got these other steps around it of readiness and follow up.

So it's just so much fun to have a completely 100% reliable thing that I never had all those years, to shift my emotional state from point A to point B. 100% reliability once I stop and become willing to to do these simple steps, I love that. I love the fact, because, right, as you were starting to say, I was the the image of Win, win popped into my mind before you said those words, which was really phenomenal. Because I think at the end of the day, some people who might, and I could see, you know, some of my male listeners, being like, well, you know this, this is the way of the world, right?

Somebody's always got to win, somebody's always got to lose, because that's how we've been cultured. And like you said, you know, it doesn't have to be that way. And if we could actually all come to the table, even in a circumstance of dispute or opposing views, which is all over the world right now, the ability to bring your your best self to the table and allow someone else the freedom to do the same, allows you to be able to approach that circumstance and resolve conflicts and solve problems in a mutually beneficial way, but in a way that allows each individual to have their self respect and their identity and all.

All of the benefits of all of what they bring, you know, to a circumstance you know they can do so much more, as opposed to being guarded or feeling like they can't contribute or add too too much for fear that they may overstep. I think it, it actually breaks down barriers what you're talking about, and allows people to actually say, okay, look, we may have just very different opinions on this, but allow me to absorb what you're telling me, and you absorb what I'm telling you.

And let's maybe see if there's some common ground that can be, you know, can be created here, maybe not today, maybe over the course of several days or several different interactions. But rather than picking and choosing a side, we now have the opportunity to really potentially discover something pretty magical together. And what a difference it makes for leaders. I mean it this, this work, though, no matter what way really helps you see that whenever you have that little rage almost, that can come up with defensiveness, yeah, or you feel like you can't handle what someone is saying or doing.

So that's why you either attack back or minimize the point they're making, or believe there isn't a win win outcome, but there is, and it's got it comes from, you know, opening up those places in yourself. One of my levels of my mastermind, is called the aligned action adventure, because even when people learned this work, we saw that they weren't necessarily. They could do it with each other. They could take a situation and calm themselves almost immediately.

But were they making a big change in their lives? And so we identify what are those? Hold out places and actually start to do baby step actions toward those and to have Okay, name the action. And it's not even about manifesting the action.

It's when you I did it, I did it, I didn't do it, I did it. I didn't do it, didn't do it, didn't do it. And all the ways that you didn't do it, just to be the, you know, the I say, put the camera on you, just the observer, the primary investigator of your own research study of what's going on. Why didn't I do it?

And then we see, oh, I was scared to make that phone call. I was afraid I would have to stop eating sugar if I investigate these diets. I was, you know, so we work through those fears and Yeah, and so it just what we're doing here is ending self sabotage, getting out of your own way and and manifestation. We're not doing it, but it definitely is happening when, I mean, every time I just have a vision of something, it's almost like the next phone call is the answer to it, that I couldn't have thought of myself no matter how long I stayed with it.

But when we're not getting in our own way, life is just it's almost like it was already there anyway. We just weren't seeing it. So so that that absence of self sabotage, the Compassionate finding of how you get in your own way is is one of the biggest results of all this. And I got so into seeing the self sabotage patterns that people were doing that I even have a quiz, a free quiz on my website, about those five styles we've got that the conditions and comparisons factory.

And I think you were talking about those things with men that lots of times I see the ways they're hard on themselves is by because maybe they're not sharing with each other enough about their vulnerabilities, and so they've got others on a pedestal. So condition, conditions and comparison factory or the not enough police is the nickname. They all have a nickname, the self sacrificing fixer, also known as the pretzel, the the made up mind, the one that's so right and gets crazy when things don't go exactly the way you think they should or want them to, or somebody else or yourself, is is also known as the judge and jury and the worst case expert, or The for forecaster and and the hamster of hellish hindsight, which, anyway of those, everybody's doing the conditions part, anytime you're suffering, it means your mind has created a condition on yourself, others, or Life.

And so with this simple process. You capture that on paper and see through it, turning it around, seeing how you're what you're doing to yourself, that the condition actually never existed, that you need to be this, or they need to be that, or life has to do that. It shouldn't be raining, whatever the condition is. Mind is a conditioned generator out of survival and wants you to believe that it's right, and then it knows.

But the more you do this work, you realize your mind actually doesn't know, pretty much anything. It doesn't we don't know why we're here. We can't predict the future even seconds from now, and yet, we believe it when it tells us that stuff. So it's fascinating to be able to to know what to do with those go to places.

But what I was starting to say is the made up mind and the worst case expert are both more externally focused, whereas the self sacrificing fixer and the hamster of hellish hindsight are kind of where you're turning on or sacrificing yourself. So what I wanted to make the point that the wheel of self forgiveness actually addresses both sides of the external or other blamers and the internal blamers. Because what I find the external blamers don't always see it or know it, but they have a really strong inner critic that's gone underground.

And in fact, that might even be why they have to point the finger outward, because being honest with themselves that they thought they did it wrong is so painful that they can't even go there so they don't even realize it. Yeah, it's a self protection methodology for them. In a lot of ways, self defense, right? And the self blamers are often pissed off, resentful, angry underneath, because they don't know how to stand up for themselves, or because they're hoping someone else will save them and tell them, Oh, you're okay.

Don't beat yourself up. And you know, and even when they do that, you won't believe it, but, but, so both, both have both sides of the coin, and what this does is, is bring you closer the middle where there you are, just present. I God, you shared so much goodness there. First and foremost, I want everybody to know, we will definitely include the link to your website as well as all of your links to all of your different social channels.

But as you mentioned, you know this, this assessment or this test that you've got is available on your website, correct? Yeah, the self so self set, or what's your self sabotage style quiz? Yeah, it's such an I love it because you give it names nicknames, like you mentioned that that can really be identifiable. And I think that one of the things that I always tell and I'm sure you experience this a lot, but you know, one of the things that you run into with a lot of people is that they've never taken the time to actually evaluate themselves in this capacity and think about some of these concepts that you're talking about.

You know? These are, these are heavy, heavy, heavy concepts, right? Self acceptance, self sabotage, understanding, you know, how and why you come across to the world the way that you do, these are all things that when, if there's someone out there that's listening and they're trying to figure out why they're bouncing from job to job, some of these things might really illuminate, you know, why circumstances continue to be in flux for you and continue to change, because you may very much be part of the problem, and you can't fix it if you don't know about it.

And I think that some of the approaches that you're taking, obviously, you know, with the approach that you're taking with the not only the book, but you know the, you know, the the model that you've created, I think, is just really, really phenomenal. So I highly encourage everybody to go to your website to learn more and to see how they can interface with your work. I along that lines, let me ask you this question. Sean, when somebody comes, maybe it's a listener to today's episode.

Maybe it's somebody that just happens along and meets you at a conference or an event. How, how do you frame the work that you do in, you know, a couple of sentences. How do you want people to like really think of when I think of Sean, this is what I think of, or this is how I might introduce or explain Sean to someone else, like I heard Steve's great podcast with Sean, and I want to explain to my leader what this, what her work might mean to our company or to our leadership team.

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's interesting, because that is probably my, one of my most challenging questions. Because it really is, for me, it was a complete cut above the mindfulness and other work, not that it's all good, and yet, I didn't have the how even like you were saying when we have identified these, these types. There's a lot in there about, why do you feel that way?

Or, let's name it. Let's give it a diagnosis. Let's see what's the problem. But I didn't have the how to get myself from point A to point B.

So I guess I would say, when it comes to both blame and shame, this is the how. This became the model for living that takes care of it all, like for me, it was the end of seeking, after decades of being an ardent seeker. And it's not that I don't mind learning and that other people aren't doing amazing things, but whatever is a religion, a spiritual approach, energy, work, all of it still fits into this model, because this is using whatever upsets you as a path to peace. I even do a session with my clients called childhood alchemy, where we go back where they become that six year old and witness that traumatic event and rewrite history by having an advocate that they never had there, by becoming by being able to stand up for themselves from all they know now in ways that they couldn't then, and and even if it means finally getting angry, but then coming back around into love by actually seeing that person too.

Meaning seeing that we're all the just the believer of our thoughts. So I guess I would say, when it comes to both self, love and and other love, I always call it unconditional thriving, unconditional prosperity, unconditional connection to self, others and life, because whatever upsets you, no matter how much inner work you've done, if it has the power to give you an emotional charge, it's it's holding the nugget that that will just continue to evolve you further once you've undone these beliefs, you You actually can't believe them again.

You might go to a deeper level with that same belief, but, but it really is the how of just life becomes the teacher I like. I like how you talked about that. I think, you know, what I heard from your answer was the summarization of blame and shame. I think what a perfect way to encapsulate because I think if I was, I was trying to qualify your work, and you know, I'm going to take a shot here just to see if I, you know, if I, if I would hit it correctly on your, your part.

But if I was asking somebody, have you ever experienced blame or shame? You're immediately anchoring it here. It's like, who hasn't right? But maybe I would admit it or not admit it, but then say, Have you ever seen or have you ever experienced a loss because of blame or shame now?

Now you're making it really personal. Maybe it's I lost a relationship, or maybe I lost a job, or maybe I, you know, I lost an opportunity to be, you know, you know, take a take a hand, or take a role at a really great startup. And then, have you ever weaponized blame or shame to your advantage? And I think that when I think about your work, it's like one, it's the inner work that I need to know.

It's two, it's not just the inner work, but it's what it's cost me in my life. And three, have I used this that hurts me to hurt others. And now when you think of it, I would add to that. And then have you also beat yourself up for having done that?

Yes, yeah. Then that comes full circle, yeah, right. Part of the wheel of self forgiveness is what I call the spark of self love, which means that part of the wheel of self forgiveness is going back. This is the you that did the thing you regret.

Even if we go to a thing where you felt like you had to weaponize or attack someone back or lash out, you can find, first of all, you go back and stand with by and for yourself, the you that you were in that moment. What was I thinking and believing? Who was I in that moment? What did I believe was going to happen to me because of what they were doing?

What was I scared of all of that? And you find that given the lens you were looking through, you can see if, when I say, find your own innocence, it means you didn't do the thing. You are guilty of doing the thing, but you you were innocent in that we actually don't create our thoughts. We don't create that lens.

We're looking through people. Sometimes I heard, oh, your thoughts are just a buffet. Choose different ones. But in the moment, if you'll notice, the thought is just there.

We're not saying, Oh, I think I will think this now. So it's driving you. And so looking through that lens, then you can see that you find your own innocence. And then I go even deeper than that and say, okay, and find the spark of self love, meaning at a real wish to help, save, protect, fix, something like that, connect.

We have an example in the book called advice giving mom where she is saying something to her grown daughter and then later is terrified that she's, you know. Daughter gets mad at her. She's terrified the daughter's just going to cut her off completely, and all of that and and she was able to really go back and see the amazingly loving motives that were behind what she did. But, but that I was like to say, my brother said, Well, that doesn't that mean you just go around finding your own innocence and you can just do whatever you want and say, Oh, I was innocent.

You know, it's like, no, it doesn't work that way. Somehow it raises you to the level of wanting to to have integrity. And so if you find that you truly did do something to be of harm, it's so much easier to take appropriate level of responsibility and seek to make amends here, I think amends, if you haven't really forgiven yourself, put a burden on the other person lots of times, because you're still looking to have them say, Oh, that's okay. Whereas if you've completely forgiven yourself, and you come back to someone and say, Wow, I am so sorry.

I went back and I saw what I was thinking and believing. I could see that I couldn't have done it any differently in that moment, but I fear I may have caused you harm. And I'm wondering, is there anything I can do to make it right? Or do you want to share with me how you experienced that moment and get that off your chest here.

You know there are specific ways that we talk about in the book, even to make these all out amends. But anyway, so, like you said, when you you might lash out, but the other half of that is then beating yourself up for having done that, especially if it got you fired. Or I legitimately could talk to you all day about this, because I am just so intrigued with the approach that you're taking the strategies that you have really settled on. The book is called, for my my audience, the wheel of self forgiveness, three simple steps to unconditional self love, self confidence and self advocacy.

Sean's putting the galley copy up on the screen for us so that you can see it for those either on YouTube. When do you anticipate this book to be out fine print? Get off the hamster wheel of regret, self doubt and indecision and then three simple steps to radical self love, self confidence and self advocacy. When I get back to you about the indecision before we wrap up, but just yeah, that when it's coming out, we're still not quite sure.

So we are going to, you know, inviting our fans out there to be part of a launch team and to take time to make sure that those experts in in these fields get a chance to also look at it and give us comments, which is, Oh, that's great. I can't give you a date yet, but I'm hoping it will be by summer, sooner, maybe, yeah, well, if somebody wanted to be a part of the beta reader group, are you still accepting BETA readers. We're always, no matter when you pick up this book, I am always open to your feedback, your experience, your questions.

We have happiness hacks, Facebook group so people can get feedback on there and other ways. But in the meantime, while you're waiting for the book to come out, we've set it up so that you can get the cheat sheet, which is a page from the book and was my original thing when I first started conceptualizing this out of what happened in bathtub. So if you just type in wheel of self, dash, forgiveness.com, that takes you to a page where you not only request to get the cheat sheet the wheel of self forgiveness, cheat sheet that breaks down these three simple steps, but the book itself is what really goes into and And it's, it's, it's not even as thick as it looks, in some ways, because part of it is a workbook.

I have a 350 page book about this, but I wanted to keep this one simple and hands on. So I hope even if you get the cheat sheet, you will go much further, because it's a summary. But whether it's working through it with me or doing the book that's going to take you further, but wheel of self, Dash forgiveness.com, will take you there, and then up in the corner too, is an opportunity to book a discovery call with me or one of my team members.

So yeah, it's all right there. It's also my website, Sean massey.com, we have videos on YouTube of just various things, yeah, what I mean? What a perfect gift.

And I will, you know, remind my audience, right? You know, like Sean's reminding you, this is, this is a summer. Me, right? But the only time success comes before work is actually in the dictionary, which means that you have to go through the book when it comes out, because she's going to give all of the detail and the strategies will be contained in that work.

Or, as I recommend, even prior to the book, you know, reach out to Sean and her team and see where you can get integrated and work with them. Because I think that the quicker that you can start to put this into practice and to put the effort towards it, the better off you're going to be. And that's what a dynamic way to really not only celebrate Sean's work, but also put it into action for you to make 2026 and beyond even that much better Sean I am. I know we're in the closing minutes, but I always like to finish these interviews up, and we're going to just have to have you back when the book comes out officially, because this is just such a fun conversation.

But I always like to wrap up with a few ripple connection questions, just a way for our audience to get to know you, just beyond the work, if you don't mind, and just a little insight as to who you are as an individual. Are you okay with that? Sure, fantastic. All right, so no gotchas, I promise.

But I have to ask you, if you weren't doing the work that you're doing now, what would you be doing, or what would you like to be doing? Well, I could be a mermaid. Adore turquoise water and swimming underwater, but I would miss land and trees, things like that. So now, yeah, you know, part of this work has me having a mad love affair with pretty much everything.

So that's that's a tricky one, but I do love the idea. I do have on my bucket list to start doing retreats and speaking engagements in Europe and actually spend, you know, at least a week in turquoise water in the winter and a month in Europe in the summer where I don't like, I mean, I love to travel, but not just to go around, but to really settle in one place like I did in Croatia, get to know that area, make my way through the grocery store, the little day to day things. So yeah, I would probably, and it would all have to include some nature too.

So yeah, I love that. I love that. What did the seven year old version of Sean want to be when she grew up horse trainer? That's a good one.

I love that I was horse trait crazy. Read every horse book, Drew horses, had horses. They were all borrowed horses. But still, yeah, horses are horses, though, right?

That's awesome, yeah? Okay. So what does the current version of Sean want to be when she grows up? Whatever I become moment to moment.

I like that. That's a good one. How do, how do we find you when you have an unexpected afternoon with no projects or no work? How do you spend your free time?

How do you or what's, what's a guilty pleasure you like to indulge in? In free time? I'm not sure there's an afternoon with, you know, no projects. And yet, I'm, my work is play.

I'm in love with creating models and conveying them out there and my team. So I already feel like I'm, you know, yeah, I think mostly I live in this beautiful spot. Just it's funny how I can take the smallest breaks to rejuvenate, just feel the air on your skin. I have the opportunity to look out at very sparkly water throughout the day.

I do love going to movies too. Oh, I have a favorite movie to Okay, yeah, which one? If you haven't seen it, it's called about time. Okay, I have not.

But no, I have not. Oh, my goodness, some, sometimes people have even stayed after my retreats and and watch that movie. But, yeah, it's just not only Rachel McAdams, but, okay, adorable guy, English guy, but, but the message is so consistent with this too. So watch it all the way to the end, and it's funny and not predictable.

And, yeah, you're gonna love it. That's awesome. Okay, last three questions, and then I'll let you go, because I want to be respectful your time. But if there was a, let's say there was a billboard outside of where you live that people had to go by every single day on their way to work or on their way to school, and then back by on the way home, if you could put any message that all of those people would see up on that billboard, what would it be?

Well, my team and coaches know that I'm really good at coming up with names and slogans so that we actually have more than we can deal with but one of them along the way that I. Really love is love yourself happy. Love yourself happy. I love that.

I've never heard that phrase that is a good one. Really big. Love yourself happy. How.

What a great one. Thank you for sharing that. When you hear the words, the ripple effect, what does that conjure up for you. What does that make you think of it makes me think of what I see every day with the women in these groups, and the changes that happen, not only in their relationships with spouse, children, grown, children, work, colleagues, etc, but the changes that happened in those people.

And and also that whole Win Win concept that I met, actually, at a Byron Katie event, a global Think Tank guy, where everybody wanted him on their think tanks is like the smartest, obviously smartest guy I've ever met who could also say things in a simple way, and and he felt this work was the only way we were going to be able to overcome climate change and other things, by being able to work together cooperatively to create what's needed to, you know, reverse those things. So I think of that just the way that my wish, my goal, would be that all this becomes common knowledge.

It just second nature to us of how we question our thinking to handle problems, and that it's not a way of blaming yourself when you find your own part. It's freedom because it puts the ball back in your court. That's a great ripple. I love that everybody's doing that when I think that's why the groups are so safe, because everybody's working their own side of things.

Yeah, that's great. Thank you for that last question. What kind of ripple can I be looking to create for you? Shout to the rooftops about the book and on all of this and and, you know, I think if, if you find yourself in regret or just want to experience the shift of both sides of this, this method I invite you to, or I offer if you would like to come in for a private session with me, because having experienced that, no matter how I see that you're already a very free and connected and wow, highly contributing person, and yet, as it's always, seeing through even more when people get this and it's and feel the literal, visceral change when you've been upset about something and you feel, Oh, it's just gone.

I can't find that anymore. So I offer that to you too, because I know that will turn into a ripple effect for everything you touch. Like I said, shout it out there. Send people.

I think it is hard to differentiate ourselves from the rest of the you know, what's out there, this spiritual party line kind of and yet, it was a huge change for me and for others. Well, no, I that was a very generous and incredible offer, and I will take you up on that, and I will absolutely have no problem sharing and shouting from the rooftops about your book, I actually already have a couple of ideas and ways that we could promote that, not only through another follow up episode of the podcast, but even through my ripple community.

We'd love to have you be a contributor there and maybe come do a talk about your book. I think that would be a great way to do it. But John, I am just really, really glad that we got to know each other through this time together today. You are a really, really, really interesting person.

The work that you're doing is so necessary and so needed right now. And I am grateful. I always tell my guests that you know, you know, we may have not known each other beforehand, but I can see that there is a really great opportunity to create a really strong friendship here. And so I'm so I'm so grateful that you've come into my life, and I appreciate that, and I look forward to really, really promoting the heck out of this episode so people learn about your work and everything you're doing.

So thank you so much for the time today. Thank you. I appreciate it. All right.

Ripple On!!! Thank you so much, guys. We'll be back with another episode of The Ripple Effect very, very soon, but until then, we will post all of Sean's links on the show notes, and I encourage you to go check out her work. But we really appreciate it.

And as Sean already said, I love it. You've got my coin phrase down perfectly, but Shawn, thank you so much for the time and as always, Ripple On!!!