The "Not Enough" Trap (The Ripple Effect Podcast ft. Barbara Burgess)

What's going on Ripplers? Hey, welcome to the Ripple Effect Podcast. I'm your host, Steve Harper. I am so grateful that you are joining us again for another great episode.

And this is a great episode. Let me tell you, I am super stoked for you to meet Barbara Burgess. I rarely go into anything confident. And part of that is actually my superpower and gift because what I'm aware of is that nothing is static and nothing's the same and bad things can happen at any moment.

And I get to scan and be aware, but I move anyway. I'm actually actually a real introvert. I'm a shy person, but I have coffees and lunches with folks, right? I may always feel vulnerable being there, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be there.

What I try not to do is the old self we used to like get out of my skin, literally be out of my body to perform and impress them. I really work hard not to do that. just to be present and sometimes frankly you know you meet somebody you walk away and if I feel less than about myself after that interaction I usually take it as a sign that they're not a fit not that I'm bad and wrong right because anybody that makes you feel that way is not in alignment with my compass and my values and things so Barbara is someone that got put on my radar a while ago.

We've actually been trying to get this interview for a while now. We had a few technical problems on both sides. First time was on her end. Second time was on my end.

We were wondering if we were ever destined to record this interview. We stuck with it. Third time is in fact the charm and we made it. And let me tell you, this interview was so much fun.

What you're going to find in Barbara is someone that is not only enthusiastic and excited about the work that she does, but she's incredibly creative. She calls herself a seeker. And I love the fact that she is able to really put into context what led her down this entrepreneurial path after a very decorated career path in corporate America. And you can just see and sense that she is doing the work that she was destined to do.

I'll give you just a little bit of highlight about her just so you have a little context, but she's a first-time author. She wrote a book called Enough, Finding Peace in a World of Distraction, Hustle, and Expectations. I love that title, by the way. I love how she ties that in during our interview about what that really means to her.

She has a firm based in Chicago called Corluma. She also talks about the inspiration behind naming it that. I think you'll appreciate that. And she's also...

A bit of a actor, a bit of a playwright. She wrote a one-woman show called The Extraordinary Experience of Being Ordinary. Now, we had so much fun having the conversation. We didn't get a chance to talk about the actual show that she wrote or the play, but we are going to do that the next time because I am definitely intrigued.

You're just going to find somebody that is just infinitely interesting and so much fun to listen to. And she has a calmness and a pleasantry that is just - I could have talked to her all day. So I hope you enjoy this as much as I enjoyed having the interview. I just - Continue to be blessed by having so many amazing people cross my path through this show, and we do it all for you.

So I am excited for you to listen to this episode. So with no further ado, in other words, stop talking, Steve. Let's dive into this episode, the Ripple Effect Podcast with Barbara Burgess. Guys, I am so excited to be joined by Barbara Burgess today for the Ripple Effect podcast.

Barbara, how are you doing? I'm doing very well. It's good to be here. I am excited.

So those of you that don't know this, Barbara and I, this is our third time trying to do this. We've had technical problems two other times, but today we are all systems go, everything's working. I should probably knock on some wood just to make sure, but I am so grateful. I think I'm knocking on laminate.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm so grateful that you agreed to do this. I'd love to let everybody know a little bit about you.

So where are you calling in from today? I'm calling in from Chicago and we're at a moment of cold and freeze. Cold and freeze. Yeah, you guys kind of have a little bit of that wintry precipitation throughout, you know, these kinds of months, right?

We do. We get used to it. I love the, I'm originally from Cleveland, but I love the resilience of Midwesterners. What was it that attracted you to Chicago?

You know, it was not, it was as when I was a kid, my dad for a job. So was never, you know, part of my plan per se, but you know, I've been, I've been here longer, but there's a funny thing about Clevelanders that once you're from there, you're always from there. So, you know, Chicago has been my home for a very long time, but I still live in a fantasy that someday the Browns will, you know, come. Do really well.

And, you know, we'll see him in the Super Bowl in my lifetime and all those funny things. You're going to have to bring back Bernie Kosar to have a shot. Exactly. Exactly.

Well, I have good friends that actually lived in Austin that moved to Cleveland and love it except for the winners, right? Yeah. And for the football, unfortunately. But, you know, hopefully Cleveland will - I don't know.

You still follow the team. Do you think Shadir Sanders is going to be your quarterback solution long term? You know, maybe. You know, it's the same with being at Chicago following the Bears.

Like you want to be cautiously optimistic at all times. Yeah. Absolutely. I was happy they made it as far as they did this year.

I was like, yeah, yeah, that was a good, good, huge step forward for the for the Bears. That's for sure. I think they do have their quarterback without question. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. So one of the reasons I was super excited to talk to you is that you are doing some really interesting work. You have a book that we want to talk about, but I'd like my audience just to get a feel for a little of your background. I'm really big into origin stories.

So how did Barbara become the awesome Barbara that she is today? Well, that Barbara probably wouldn't describe herself that way. But yeah, I think part of the book journey and part of the you know, things I've wound up doing have all been part of a hodgepodge of a journey. You know, I used to say in my career, I was a jack of all trades, master of none.

And I think that's still true, right? But if I go all the way back to like little kid time, like I'm always somebody who wanted to contribute in some way, who wanted to be kind, who wanted everything to work out. Like there is this naive optimism and you know sort of indomitable spirit as a young one that I think has been a thread throughout despite you know challenges at different times in my career and things like that so like as a little kid I was like you know writing plays and and and doing creative projects and you know singing at the top of my lungs into a carrot you know like that was me as a kid.

But, but also, you know, life, life's right. So as we grow up, I mean, I was definitely a kid that very much had the, you know, psychological term is external locus of control, meaning I constantly looked outside myself for who I was, validation, et cetera. And so I think a lot of my, you know, whether it's grade school, high school, even into college, it was ticking boxes. Right.

I remember being conscious in high school of like you had if you were a senior you had your yearbook photo at the end but it was like what did you achieve you know so i had two years of student council president i had cheerleading i had all these little ticks right yeah but um all of that really wasn't about me you know it was about some sense of what would matter and what would be belonging and things like that and then i think you know into college post-college into career you have a lot of i'll call it beautiful disillusionment you know about humans and life and challenges and all those kinds of things and i think for all of us throughout our we hit these places of existential crisis, right?

Where it's really like, wait a minute, who am I? What matters to me? Where am I? Why does it matter?

And so in many ways, in this season of my life, particularly I'll say the last five years, I feel like, I'm stepping into my life almost as a child in the best way. You know, I remember my mom saying to me when I was struggling at 13, 14, you know, you don't know how easy you have it. Wait till you get older. 15, like, It's so hard.

And God bless. I'm sure I've said the same thing to my kids, but it's not true. Like I'm saying this for anyone young out there. Like to me, it has gotten easier, not because I face less adversity.

I've probably faced harder things, but I don't, orient so much to that same, you know, what, what the measuring stick is of winning. Right. It's why I love the theme of your podcast and the idea, like, you know what I love to do? I love to be with humans.

I love to meet humans. And so for me, even career wise, like I did the achieve, what's the next thing on the resume? What's the next, you know, I sold candy bars. I worked in internet commerce when internet was new.

I did a lot of those things, but you know, to me, like businesses are just vehicles and for human transactions and so all of that was just stuff still right and so what i choose to do or get to do at the season of my life is like i don't i don't need to have the artifice with it i could just go right in and enjoy being with humans and i don't even have to at least the business model i've built you know the money comes when i'm just caring serving connecting And so I don't feel like I'm needing to tell my soul in ways I might have in earlier times in corporate careers.

So a very long answer to your question, but I think that's sort of how I landed up being here. I love all of that. You know, the thing that you just said, though, that really caught my attention is caring, serving and connecting. So what was it about when, you know, obviously you were in corporate America for a long time and then you decided to hang your own shingle, become an entrepreneur.

Did you always have those three components in your prior corporate career or was that missing? And that's what you really wanted to explore and go forward and bring to the world. Was that sort of, rather than ticking the boxes, kind of like you said so beautifully, did you finally figure out that, Hey, I've been ticking boxes for everybody else. Now it's time to take it for me.

And I have a bigger offering to serve here. Yeah, well, two parts of what you just said there, because there was a lot of nuance in that. But I think those three parts have always been part of me. I think I did a lot of gymnastics to try to fit into invitements where I would give away a part of that at different times.

And I don't think it was, you know, I think it was in different ways over different periods of time, some of which is just growing up, right? Like some of it we get to make a mess and figure ourselves out as we go. But I think I left, you know, I was at a job in e-commerce. I left that to go to my last company searching for meaning.

But that I've always been a seeker from from little, little, I've been a seeker. And so I think I've always been in these, like, literally deep questions about like, what's the meaning of life? Why am I here kind of things, right? And but I think so much of it, and I'm going to go all the way back to the 70s, 80s, etc.

It's like, what color is your parachute? And there's all these like kind of ways, like find your purpose. And we still do it. Like we have assessments ad nauseum to find yourself, you know, but my, what I'm learning in this season is like, no, no, no, no.

I engage as myself, wherever I am and things happen. There's nothing I need to find. There's no treasure that's been hidden from me to discover. So I think those aspects were always part of me.

And I think I, in earnest, really tried to bring that to bear in all the situations I was in. But the real reason, I never thought I'd be an entrepreneur. Like zero, none. Like to me, those were frankly white males.

They were people who were heavy on risk. And they were, you know, like I had the stereotype in my head I wasn't even conscious of. but I left my last role. I had been there 22 years.

I had left as COO, but it was very toxic environment. It had been for decades. What I didn't realize is I kept trying to fix it. Like if I only, but maybe if I try, well, what about, you know, putting all of my sort of emotional labor and life force into that?

And I joke with a friend, I was like, finally, I felt like, oh gosh, my forehead hit the brick wall for the third time where I was finally like, oh, the wall's not moving. Oh, you know, that's, this is making no difference. God bless you, honey. I love that you care.

And so the, the doing what I'm doing now ended up being a little bit accidental because I was exploring it. I had a coach, I'm a coach, but I also have used coaches my whole life. Sure. And I had a coach who said, Hey, have you ever thought like, I think you'd be great at this.

And I'm like, no, I've definitely never thought about it. And that sounds terrifying. But I started just doing it because I didn't have my next plan. And I was like, I'm just going to engage.

And I have loved it because I get to make the rules of the game now. And so even for me early on when I was building the business, I had so many people giving me advice about, you know, here's what you need to do. And I'm like, listen, I have a marketing background. I have taught sales forces, you know, like I love you.

Bless you. You care about me. No, thank you. Here's what I want to do.

I want to go talk with people. and if they ask i want to tell them what i'm doing and if i can help i want to help that's at the core that's it right yeah and that's what i did and i have now like i'm i don't know five years into a thriving business that is changing all the time like that have limited contracts that have to be rebuilt every year sure but i get to have those three things as the point of the You know, instead of as these things I'm trying to do despite. It's like, no, no, no, no, they're first and foremost.

And I get to say my very first gig that came to me was a big consulting gig or second one, I guess. And I actually told the people, I'm like, I don't think I'm the right fit for you. Like I researched and here's another woman I think will be better. And I gave them the link.

You know, I was like, I think you should call it. And they're like, I made them want you more. Right. Well, they did.

And it wasn't a strategy. I just literally thought, dang, I think for this thing, I found her. She has more experience. But, you know, but I kind of have a deal with my maker, you know.

And this happened early on in coaching and working with people. I say a little blessing, a little prayer, a little however you want to call it, depending on your orientation. I say, if this is meant for me, please draw to me like the strongest magnet on the planet and let me be undeniable. If this is not meant for me, please pull it away from me so rapidly that I don't even notice.

Oh, my God, that's beautiful. Thank you. It helped me as an entrepreneur because, you know, you get those rejections where you get it's easy to get down. And I'm like, then that wasn't meant for me.

And I've also gotten other people that said yes, that I was like, oh, oh, feels above my pay grade. I don't know. Am I up to this task? And I'm like, it was put here.

So it's meant for me. Now serve. You get your butt out there and serve to the best of your ability, you know, and that's kind of my how I orient. Barbara, I'm very impressed with that.

I got to say, having been in the coaching space for a very long time, knowing a lot of coaches, one of the biggest challenges, especially people that are transitioning from corporate America into that type of business, they want to talk to anybody and everybody and they want to take on every client opportunity because- The thought process is I need to generate revenue. And I think the thing that I love about how you approached it is if I am meant for this, right, then yes, bring it to me.

If I'm not, then, you know, it isn't for me. And I think that's such a beautiful, beautiful thing for my audience to understand because we have a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of coaches and consultants. Not every opportunity is the perfect opportunity, but having confidence and assuredness about what you're doing. And of course, like you said, depends on what your perspective is.

But if you're in alignment with your maker, your spirit, or really where you want to invest your time and your energy, you need to ask yourself those questions and see where you are. rather than just jumping in with both feet. Because I've also seen coaches that have left corporate America thought they could do it because they had been coached or they've experienced that, thought it wasn't that big a deal and they could certainly figure it out. And then they fail miserably and they end up going with their tail between their legs back to corporate America, but they've lost something, right?

That spark, that confidence, because they didn't really take the time to understand and really get quite familiar about what is right for them and how they want to go out. And to your point, hey, if this is the right fit, then I'm going to dive in with both feet. I'm going to serve my tail off to make sure that I do a great job. I just think it's a really, really good life lesson for folks to hear that.

And I appreciate you sharing that. I just want to say one more thing about that. The other thing, because you said like that confidence, I'm the least confident person I know. So somebody introduced to me years ago, a term that works better for me, which is self-efficacy.

And the whole idea behind that is the sense that I can. So I rarely go into anything confident. And part of that is actually my superpower and gift, because what I'm aware of is that nothing is static and nothing's the same and bad things can happen at any moment. And I get to scan and be aware, but I move anyway.

So even in these things like I'm actually real introvert, I'm a shy person, but I have coffees and lunches with folks. Right. And so I may always feel vulnerable being there, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be there. And I just work to be, what I try not to do is the old self we used to like get out of my skin, literally be out of my body to perform and impress them.

I really work hard not to do that. just to be present. And sometimes, frankly, you know, you meet somebody, you walk away. And if I feel less than about myself after that interaction, I usually take it as a sign that they're not a fit, not that I'm bad and wrong, right?

Because anybody that makes you feel that way is not in alignment with my compass and my values and things. So i i rarely feel quote unquote confidence but the more that i prove this model out the more that i realize listen i'm not going to die doing this you know and even frankly if the business crashes you know in six months i'll figure the next thing out you know if i had to go work at mcdonald's i'm actually good i would probably love organizing the bread and buns it would bring me great joy now would it be hard it would be hard right my ego would take a hit all those things but i'm not gonna let that at this stage this season of my life get in the way from me i i think sort of like we all have this opportunity at our unique contribution and value like this is what i love about even you in what you're doing like there's an old model where the people that are listening would be competitors oh yeah no no no no no we're just all humans working to do our things so you know, I think we get to be next to each other contributing.

And that's the beauty of it. I love that. You touch on something, though, when you and I assume in your your corporate roles, you felt like you had to play a certain role, right? You had to put on a certain air.

And that's often very hard. I'm introverted as well, which is probably why you and I will get along and become fast friends. But oftentimes we feel like we have to put on these airs and do these things. And it's like that uncomfortable pair of shoes, right?

It just never fits. It never feels right. And you just kind of know that you are legitimately destined for bigger and better things. But you don't oftentimes as an introvert know where those things are.

What was it that sort of was the tipping point for you in terms of saying, okay, I've done this. I've been great at it and I could do it for the rest of my life, right? At least the rest of my career. But I'm ready to actually start doing things for Barbara.

I'm ready to step into my own power and explore what I know that I can - what talents I can bring to the world. Yeah, I think some of that was the, I don't know how to quite say this, but there's almost this buildup, right? You get to a point where I'm like, I'm done. And I remember journaling this one morning.

And I journaled it about some relationships. I also journaled it about my work situation. And I remember the pivot. I remember the moment.

And it was December 31st of that year. I have a habit where I will take my calendar and do a look ahead of my calendar, like what's coming up next quarter, just a little scan. And I had done that and we had regular at the company was that we had regular trainings that we did. And I remember my eyes landed on March.

I don't know why they skipped January and February, but like they just somehow went ahead. And I saw like it was a weekend training we were doing. I would be leading it, blah, blah, blah. And I literally had a physical sensation in my body that was just a no, just no, no, no.

And I will say, like, I was skeptical, like I was negotiating with myself in my head. I'm like, what do you mean? No, it's like there were two people in my head at the time because I was like, this is what I've done. This is I mean, I'm there for two decades and I had crafted enough of it to be in a way that I could do things my way within certain realms.

But there was just that sense of, you know, life is short. My kids are getting older. Like, what are you waiting for? Like, that's, I think, the predominant question.

Like, there's nothing wrong with you continuing to do what you've always done. You're good at it. But that's not enough anymore for me and what I was wanting and doing. And I think the real thing was, was I willing to take the risk and change?

to do something that, you know, you kind of get settled into bad situations sometimes and we get okay with the familiar, even if it's not ideal for us. And I didn't have another picture to this point. It wasn't like, oh, I can see myself being an entrepreneur. I just didn't.

But there was something about making that choice in that moment that everything started to shift. I was open to new ideas. I was open to listening to coaches who had probably been telling me these things for some time, you know, all of that kind of thing. And so then it became, you know, a kind of a new journey in that moment.

But I think there was just a place where I just, there was this, I couldn't anymore. Had you, had you previous to that kind of that moment, had you considered or sort of fantasized about owning your own business, doing something on your own, or had you always kind of thought at that point, corporate was kind of the career path for you? I don't think I had thought of that as like a logical pathway, but I had fantasized leaving that job a thousand times. I had fantasized anything but that.

Right. You know, I mean, so like so, yes, I had imagined like and I will say I keep imagining like my desire to grow my business now and to grow my wealth. is I see a lot of things where I could contribute and help. I just see more things than even within the limited frame I have right now than I can do.

And so I had those visions as I'm honest with myself and look back for probably a decade. You know, those were there. I just kept ignoring it, putting it to the side, et cetera, because I think I was too afraid if I let it grow. And I think I was afraid of failing.

I think I was afraid like, what if I get out there and I find out that I'm actually terrible? You know, like, what if that's the case? And, you know, and so I do say, like, I wish I would have left a decade earlier. I really do.

Well, yeah, you got, I was going to ask that question. If you thought you maybe should have, you know, being in your last role for, you know, 20 plus years, if you would have done it earlier, if you had known. But I guess one of the things that I would ask you is when you made that decision and you said, nope, I'm looking at this thing, you know, coming up in March and And you finally said, nope, I'm going to do it. Did you feel like, you know, all of a sudden the weight of the world was kind of off and now you were sort of a little bit free to actually create and explore and sort of tap into those things where you were a seeker as, okay, now this is going to be what I need to do.

This is the path I need to take. And I don't know all the answers, but I'm going to go find them. Yeah, I think the weight was off about two to four weeks later. And that was just because I had been at that organization so long.

So this was a Sunday. I'll never forget. I came home and my husband was on the couch. And I said to him, I'm like, honey, I'm going to need to quit my job.

And he just looked at me and I could tell he's an engineer by training. I watched the wheels spin and the smoke coming out. And then he was like, already then. I mean, he was just like...

There you go. And that so that was a Sunday. My meeting with my CEO was that Tuesday, our regular weekly meeting. And I told him that Tuesday.

So and originally I gave an 11 month notice. This is what a funny human I am. And I shortened it to six months. But to this point, there were milestones of letting people know because I was so ingrained in the culture.

And even at that point, what I cared the most about was making sure my team was great, that people got elevated, that I left every to-do transitioned. I wouldn't do all that again if I went back. That was too much overgiving, which is a constant lesson for me. But to your point, there was a turning point that once enough people knew, And that was a couple of weeks later that it is unbelievable the burden that lifted from my shoulders.

It was literally like the skies parted and all things were possible in a way. None of it was certain. None of it was determined. But it just like there was like a creativity that could come because I had at least said officially no to that.

Yeah. Well, you know, I call it the entrepreneurial moment of clarity, right? This is the path I'm going. And it doesn't matter whether you're going to go be a coach, a consultant, you're going to start a tech startup, whatever.

It's that one pivot where all of a sudden you just, the cloud's clear. You sort of see where you're going and where you want to go and how you want to get there. You may not have all the answers on how you'll get it, but you have a very... I'll say quiet, but, you know, burning desire to be successful and you've got quiet confidence that you can get there.

Yeah. I think that's, you know, every entrepreneur that I've ever talked to has had that moment and almost every single one of them that has had that moment never goes back to the safety of a corporate job. When I ask folks that have gone into, you know, the entrepreneurial venture and you just can tell they're maybe just not getting it or it's just not right. They didn't have that moment.

They got fed up or got laid off and they felt like that was the only way they could go. So I've found that there's a secret ingredient there that that point actually has to happen for you to know, Hey, I'm no longer employable. I need to be in a position to do my thing. And I want to be able to make my decisions and make the right calls and be able to serve in a, in a capacity that's right for me.

And that could be taking my time, energy, and talents and applying it, you know, for Other clients in that same industry or in other avenues, or maybe I have this great idea that I've been thinking about in the back of my mind forever and ever. And now I'm ready to go start it. And you just have that moment of clarity that says, yep, now's the time. Well, it's so interesting as I'm listening to you talk and I'm, you know, seeing how that resonates with me or other people I've known because similarly, I've had folks that I know that gave it a whirl and it wasn't a fit.

But I was thinking as you were saying that what I realized for myself, like I love the word possibilities. And so I think in that moment, when that moment came, you know, uh, possibilities opened and because i was very tuned in with what resonated at the core of me it was obvious right which is very different to your point than i got to get out of here like i've run away from any of jobs to the next better job right but um this was not that right this was a instead of a deep getting away from it was a deep tuning into and i think probably many of us need to open up to that moment but if it isn't aligned with a core essence, then it's probably not going to stick.

But if it is, what I discovered in that cloud moment is it was the end vision, not the end goal. The end vision is to care, contribute, and serve any way that I can. And so with that, that was undeniable. So I guess if you go back to your confidence, I knew that in my DNA, you know, like I'm like, this is all we're doing and we're doing it our way and all that kind of stuff.

But, but I love how you're saying that because I think if we, if we get the opportunity or we think about doing it, but it doesn't come from that really clicking core resonance and alignment, then it probably isn't going to fit. And I think it's good for people to try and decide to go back because you can go back with a different lens if it isn't your thing. Yeah. And I've known several that have actually gone back, you know, maybe into a similar or exact same industry, right?

Where they tried it, they now have that outsider's perspective, but they bring a completely different lens to the table now. And that certainly can serve you as well. And certainly not, you know, don't want to, you know, discourage anybody from giving it a whirl and giving it a try. And you may learn some things along the way that makes it even more valuable if you do decide to go back into a corporate role.

Certainly, you will learn as an entrepreneur, as I know that you have, you'll take your licks and they come fast and furious a lot of times in ways that you never saw in corporate America, that's for sure. Well, and I think to that point, I was very, very fortunate and lucky because we did work with entrepreneurs. So I also had the blessing of not being naive, you know? And so I knew, like, I think a lot of people go into their own business or that thing thinking like, they don't think about the fact that i'll have to drum up business that i'll have to meet people that i'll have to do all those kinds of things i had no illusion of that yeah right i knew it's not like okay if you build it they will come no you know you actually have to put yourself out you have to be vulnerable you have to do the work that is involved in that um and i think that was part of the the gift in that regard and and again i keep thinking about a good friend of mine who did uh pause out for a moment i mean she had the opportunity to kind of almost do an early retirement and then did it for a bit but there's almost a mutual appreciation between us now as a friendship because some of the things she's dealing with corporately she's high up in hr you could not pay me enough money i cannot think of the dollar amount that i would do but she feels the same way about mine having learned like what it is to really meet a client to figure out what it is to keep that building etc she would say the same thing and i think And that that guidepost that you were saying is it gives people a good way to know, is this is this the thing?

Well, and, you know, from coaching right at this point, you know, when you find the right fit, it just feels right. Right. And, you know, that for some is entrepreneurs, you know, entrepreneurism or an entrepreneurial path. For others, it's the safety and security of working for a company or having the resources of a company to surround yourself with.

Entrepreneurship is hot right now. Everybody talks about it. If you're on Instagram for more than five minutes, somebody's talking about the hustle culture and define your own path and be your own boss. But it isn't for everybody.

And it can be very, very challenging. But at the same time, You're the only one that can answer that for yourself. I mean, one of the things that I think that I have an appreciation for for what you've done and I want to talk about your company too because I love how you named it and I want to hear the inspiration behind it. But the fact that you knew in that moment and you felt like this was the direction you wanted to go - even as an introvert, which is really often not the case.

Introverts are almost sometimes afraid of their own shadow, especially when it comes to starting their own thing. Because just the fact that whatever the idea might be or whatever the business is, now you have to talk to people about it. How did you overcome that in order to be able to say, okay, boom, I'm planting the flag and we're doing it. And then maybe follow that up with how you ended up naming your company the way you did.

Yeah, well, I think part of it is having coached people, even in my last role so long, I knew that there was, like, I kind of had to make that choice that was not go backable from, you know, for myself. I just knew myself to know, like, if we don't plant a flag here, this is going to be something we skate around for a million years, right? So I knew my own weaknesses in that regard. So I think you just came up with a phrase that you need to trademark right now, not go backable.

Not go backable. You need T-shirts or hats on that. I don't know. I'm just saying.

But anyway, go ahead. Sorry. But to that point, I didn't tell many people. It was only very few.

The few that I trusted the most, right? But saying it out loud to them said, okay, this is not something we're going about lightly, right? And so that helped a lot having made sort of that declaration because it held me accountable. you know, to navigate through the tough stuff.

I mean, I'll, I'll never forget my first round of tax season that of all the education I got all, you know, having to navigate health insurance in a different, like all the things that you're like, wham, there's another wave. Right. But, but I think to this point about that kind of guiding compass to my, companies naming so i have a marketing background you know i've been in marketing been sales i've been in operations i've dabbled in a lot of different places and so i i knew that there were some ground rules like i have to have something that's easily searchable can't be too confusing in the spelling it has to be something that um somebody else doesn't own that it's not going to get confused by like i had some rules and guidelines but every you know, name that I kept thinking of, which was a combination of words and phrases that mattered to me is already taken because we have so many URL sitters.

Now it's such a business in itself. So I had, you know, had a number of those. And then I finally decided like, okay, no, let's just try to get the essence of it. And so the, the two part, my business name's Corluma, C-O-R-L-U-M-A and core coming from that kind of, you know, Latin romance language instead of root for heart, because that's what really matters to me is like I'm being guided by my heart that, you know, I'm feeling it in my body.

This feels right. I can care. I can contribute. And then the luma was for light.

And so bringing those together, because a lot of I'm somebody who's willing to step into really difficult situations. and say despite the introvert say really difficult things bring them to light but i don't do them in a blustery way i don't do them in an aggressive way it's all gentled you know in that way but i'm bringing together that heart and light like let's shine the light on difficult things let's shine the light on our vulnerabilities let's shine the light on the things we may haven't wanted to see but let's do it from a place of heart and caring and purpose and so that core and luma coming together became sort of the name and and i it was funny you bring it up because i don't think about it often it's second nature but i had to type my email address in somewhere this morning and i thought gosh that is just stuck you know i wasn't even committed to it that it had to be there forever because again as a somebody who's helped entrepreneurs i know like you can make up the big website you need, but the truth is you just got to get out there.

Like no website's going to save you. No company name's going to save you. No creative branding's going to save you. It can be a waste of time and a whole wormhole.

You got to get out and start meeting people, tell them what you're doing, et cetera. And so I was remarking on the fact that like, no, it's five years out and that still really works for me because it's an umbrella under which so much can live. Yeah, actually what I'd throw back at you that I like so much about it is where you talk about, which is something a coach is really very, very helpful in is uncovering some of those challenges that an individual is facing. A lot of times that could be their confidence.

It could be their own experience, their work environment, their way of being raised, whatever, right? That informs how they sort of show up in the world. And what generally tends to happen is that a lot of people will not take those things that are often termed weaknesses or challenges. They won't bring those out of the closet and shine the light on them.

And they don't want to address them. And that's often usually the Achilles heel, right? As you probably experienced in your work. But the thing I like about your experience Naming convention is, hey, look, I'm going to start with heart.

We're going to pull this out. You used the word gentle a couple of times, and I love that phraseology because you can see how you are with your clients. We're going to do this with respect, and we're going to do it with caring, and we're going to do it with heart, and we're going to shine a light on these things that maybe have been holding you back. And we're going to show you that they're not as scary and they're not things that actually have to keep you in one place.

We can actually break you free from some of these challenges that you've run into or some of these experiences that may be informed how you've looked at yourself or looked at your work situation. And we're going to show you ways that we can help get away from that, right? And I think that's one of the beautiful things about coaching is helping people really address those monsters in the room that they have been afraid to even look in the same direction of and be able to do it in a way that comes across with such care and compassion, which you clearly have.

Well, and I think a lot of that, as you were talking, I was thinking for me, I have had the blessing of using coaches also, or just mentors and different things in my life and like trying to really appreciate the best of what that is. But part of it for me is it's also a big portion is mutuality because I, In order for me to be integrous, I'm constantly looking at my vulnerabilities and the things I'm trying to hide from myself. So whatever tools or friends or trainings or things I use to keep uncovering those.

So for me, when I'm with somebody one-on-one, the main thing I'm trying to do is... be super curious about how did they wind up being who they are and again this is where i love humanity too because when you really get there it's it is massive empathy which to your point is the heart piece right yeah if i can really picture i always say my clients like i want to picture a 3d movie like you're facing a challenge at work i want to be able to pretend i am the main character in the movie and i can see it taste it touch it all that kind of thing because if i can then I can be curious about what might be limiting, might be in the way, et cetera.

But I can only put myself in those shoes if I have been willing to say the uncomfortable things to myself as well. And I have said this before, and I think it's truer every season, like I'm getting more and more allergic to experts. Like I really don't want to talk to them. I don't want to be with them because it's just such an enormous amount of hubris, right?

Like we could have this whole podcast on all of my current weaknesses and we'd fill up the hour and then some also, right? But I don't feel that kind of safety or trust or authenticity if people aren't willing to admit that. I have a friend who launched a whole business, sold a financial company, all that kind of stuff. And he would never, he was great at sales, but I said to him, I said, the biggest thing you're blowing is you never lead with your failure story.

I knew it. I found it out a decade into our relationship. And I said, that's the most powerful thing. Your achievements are who cares, but what it took for you to have been failing as a salesperson and turn it around.

That's interesting because then I can join you. Then I can say we're both human. Oh, you had your struggles. I had mine.

Let's discover what they are. And that's where the light can come. But if I'm not willing to do that for myself, to me, it's just climbing up on somebody. You know, it's being patronizing.

It's looking down like I don't need anybody's advice. I need their being next to me on the journey and us working together. Well, I think you've been reading my mind or you've been in my studio because one of my questions I was going to ask you and I'll just ask it now because you touched it so perfectly there with talking about your friend. How has failure informed who you've become and how you show up in the world today?

Yeah, well, like right away, as you said, with the business, right? I remember I was lucky to get a first consulting gig that was sizable enough that I felt like it was one of those votes like, okay, you're not an idiot. You could do this. I mean, it was literally at that level, you know, it was very lovely.

But then I had an opportunity for a very large coaching engagement with a startup and all this kind of thing and put together a proposal. And again, I had already been doing proposals for, so it wasn't like that wasn't new, et cetera. And I really thought I had it and I didn't. And this was like my second thing I went after.

And it was such a kick in the gut. Like it took me a minute, you know, to really be with that disappointment, that upset. not because it was going to kill anybody, but because how much it awoke my limiting beliefs about myself, how much it started the voices, which is part of the thing that led to the book in some ways, right? Of this thing like, see, told you, you're not enough.

You'll never do it. Who did you think you were? You're too big for your britches, all those childhood kinds of things, right? They were just right there in my face.

But interestingly, back to the earlier part of our conversation, that's where I had to sort of let go and have something bigger driving it. That's where the compass came into play. That was, wait a minute, then that wasn't meant for me. Like I had to hold that framework to keep my legs moving because otherwise I could have just been stuck there forever about how bad it was.

Right. So I've not really reflected on it until you asked, but as I think back, like, boy, that was a pivotal failure. Right. both from having that new philosophy, but also navigating through it.

Because I also knew, because it was for a minute longer than I would have liked that it set me back. But knowing that I navigated through that when I got a next rejection or another rejection, it's like, okay, we lived through that one. More business came. You're not going to die.

It's all going to be good, right? And I'm blessed to have a good network of support that I've developed over the years because I didn't used to. And I would joke with them like, yeah, somehow I thought I'd be an entrepreneur. And 100% of the people would say yes to me, like 100%.

That was my stick, my measuring stick. On what planet does that happen? That's a high watermark, boy. That's a high watermark.

There is no room for learning, which is what I say I'm about, right? So I had enough of a sense of humor and some distance. But I think that big failure and ones that follow were very formative because when you know you can get through the failure, It adds to the resilience. It adds to that forward thrust.

I'm like, yeah, like I said, this business may fail. Many entrepreneurs fail in multiple businesses over time, but we don't talk about it. You don't say I've had 10 of them because this one had its life cycle. Then it died.

Then I built this one. Like people don't say that so much. So you think if you're an entrepreneur and you have something that lasts a handful of years and it has to be reinvented or reborn or die, you think there's something wrong. No, that's entrepreneurship.

That's right. That's right. There's a cycle and you should not be afraid to talk about your failures. And in fact, people identify more with people that have not been successful than they are with people that are successful.

And let's face it, nine times out of 10, and we touched on it earlier as well about social media, but People only put out there the good stuff, right? They don't ever talk about the bad stuff. It's funny, the videos that I have had the most success with, whether it be on Instagram Reels or YouTube, is when I'm talking about a failure, right? And something that didn't work out the way I thought it should or...

you know, overcoming a problem or an issue because people are hungry to see that other people out there are willing to share sort of the beats that they've been given so that you can learn from them. And I really, I'm like you, I think that there's a lot of value in understanding that, you know, just like your colleague that you were talking about, it's, you know, that makes you infinitely more interesting. I think back to a consulting engagement I was doing for a tech company in Austin and they had bought a company and they had two different philosophies in development, right?

So software development and one was kind of a waterfall approach. People are familiar with that approach from a development perspective. It's kind of how you move work along the cycle and the pipeline. And then they were embracing an agile methodology, which is, you know, Same kind of mindset but vastly different in terms of the deliverable.

And they had two warring factions within the organization. And so one of the things that I did when I got consulted was how do I bridge this? How do I get these people to get connected and engaged? And I told them we can get them to ripple.

That's not a problem. We can help them find ways to - create commonality, um, and get to know one another, but that's still not going to be enough. You actually need something like that kind of that lightning strike moment. And so what we did was we created, um, um, you know, every two weeks they had a launch called failure club and failure club was bringing their failures from any time in their career, but following the methodology that they were so, you know, that in the world over and, And before you know it, there were similarities that allowed people to start bridging conversation and engaging with one another.

And we know I've always been curious about Agile or tell me why you stuck with Waterfall so long. And before you know it, you had people that looked at each other as the enemy. They started looking at each other as colleagues and they were able to help one another adapt into the methodology that - Quite honestly, if you wanted to stay working there, you had to fall in line with, right? But you can go about it so many different ways.

And an organization, you know, leadership would have just threatened people, right? You either get on board or you don't. And yeah, that's one way you could do it. But the other way is to just find some common ground and find some ways to help them understand.

And one of the best places to learn from people is how they dealt with failure. Yeah, I love the Failure Club. I mean, that's just brilliant. And I think more organizations who really mean they want to make changes should start one.

Because just thinking about all the cross-functional learning, like if I can really talk about what didn't work, you're going to have an insight or some other way you did it that we can join. But what struck me as you were talking was as a parent. So I remember when I was doing drop-off for my firstborn back in the day. And part of the thing that was challenging as a parent is the same thing, is that everybody, you know, got all the moms in their yoga pants with gorgeous bodies and their kids are brilliant and all that kind of stuff.

And it was painful. They all got it figured out. Yeah. They all got it figured out.

And so everybody would be like, well, how's Joey? Oh, he's, you know. And then I made a choice at that point in time because authenticity really matters to me. And that's, again, something that bothered me.

And so people would ask me. And so I just led with, well, I'm having a hard time here. this is what's not and i will tell you it was like the floodgates open so i made so many good connections with people because these same people who had that facade when i led with that were like oh my god let me tell you this other thing like i learned stuff i had no idea what's going on you know in relationships and with kids and stuff like that but i think everybody just needed permission yeah and that's what i hear i'm doing a talk coming up about psychological safety and and how to navigate with that but i think In that place like that, when you create a failure club, you create psychological safety, and almost a mandate to go into those vulnerable spaces.

And that's where the magic happens. Yeah, which is I love that love the concept. Well, thank you. It's interesting.

And it was something I got to be honest with you, I was thinking of on the fly when I put it forward, but it worked out so beautifully. And along that same lines, and I've gone into organizations like this, but a lot of times we always focus on just the positives, right? One of the things that I think leaders ought to walk in and ask is, okay, so what's not working? What's blowing up right now?

Tell me. And not with a punitive mindset, right? Or having that doom and gloom mindset, but actually look at the things that are not working within your organization or within your team or within the dynamic of a customer relationship, right? what isn't working because if we aren't able to talk about what isn't working we're never going to figure out how to get things to work right and i think that's another way that you could put a you know framework in place to help people really welcome the conversation about things that may not be going as well as they could be And I think leadership has a responsibility to not hide from those things.

They need to ask about them. And I think to even take that to the next thing, because I'm thinking about a couple of companies that I'm working in right now where they are asking those questions, but it is not a safe environment to actually share it. no matter what people say, it's not like they're ready with the, you know, they have proven that. Right.

So, but as you're talking about leadership, like, do we have the courage as leaders to not only invite those questions, but to create the environment, right. That is, and I can't remember there's a, again, it's a parenting analogy and I, I can't remember this woman's last name. I have to look it up. So I give appropriate attribution.

I know her first name's Allison, but she talks about as parents were trying to like carve this block of wood into whatever we consider a kid to be. And instead our job is a gardener. So do I have good soil? Can I put the sunshine, the water?

Can I prune away things that aren't working? But the plant itself has a life of its own. And I think as leaders, how do we ask those questions, but how do we create the soil where it's safe, the place where roots can go so that we can be buffeted by the upset, but we are still going to stay connected, you know, underneath the surface in a way that's meaningful, that allows us to grow not be you know pushed down and all that kind of stuff so as you're talking about I'm thinking like it really is quite a responsibility to think about what's involved in that because it's more than asking the question if you're asking the question in an environment that is proven that it is not a you know going to reward that then you got another thing coming if you expect to get an answer right which you did by making it everybody and mandated right Yeah, when the leader's asking the question, but they're also sharpening the guillotine as they do it, it's not a good safe environment.

That's for sure. Well, and I think that's our job as coaches a lot of time too. Like this is where in some of the gigs I've walked away from or where somebody will ask me. Like I've had a couple clients I've worked with over time saying, hey, we got this really difficult one.

Like it's somebody usually very high up who has very bad behavior, who's been allowed to get away with it for 20, 30 years. And they're like, will you take this person on? And my question is, you know, a couple phase always. I'm like, A, have they been given the feedback as directly as I'm receiving it right now?

And B, is there a real consequence if they don't change? And if either of the answers to those are no, I'm not going to go do that gig. Because the truth is, I'm not going to come do the job you didn't do, which is telling them the truth about this. And if you're not going to hold them accountable, who are we kidding?

They're not going to change, right? There's no motivation for it. And so, but those are those conditions, right? To say, can I be effective here or not?

I'm not going to put myself in an unsafe situation where I can't make a change that way. And I think there's a lot of parallels to what you're saying in that regard. Cause yeah, if the guillotine is being sharpened, that's different. i love how you framework you know frame that um back to them and you know the whole time you were saying that i was thinking yeah i'm not gonna be your surrogate backbone right a hundred percent that's and by the way since you have so many coaches who listen a very dangerous spot like you have to watch out for yourself and um and and again even like if i get the description of what it is like i'm gonna read it to my client live like this and then i will say does this resonate with you like this is what i'm hired to work with you on does this resonate And if the answer is yes, good, we're in good shape.

And sometimes it's nuanced or whatever. Most of the time it's in pretty good shape. But if that's brand news to them, red flag, red flag. Exactly.

Yeah. I mean, I've got one question then I want to ask you about your book, but how do you handle it when it's not new news to them and they still have dug in and refused to change, but now you are in a position to actually have the opportunity to work with them? How do you get them to... open up and see the light that you know you know the the days may be numbered if you don't make the change yeah well i i do two things i first go back to the stakeholder because again to me that's an integrity out on the company's part and so um and and if for some reason they're not willing to write that wrong i won't do it like i would walk away from the gig i haven't had that happen yet but i have said those words directly So that's my first move.

But in the second one, it is back to what we said about the, you know, starting from that place of like, I'm super direct with them, like, hey, I know this is rough. I know it's not what you expect, etc. But are you willing to go here? I'm willing to support you if you're willing to go here.

So I look for permission. And if so, it is really taking it one step at a time with massive empathy. people are not most of the time that we have plenty of mental health, you know, issues and things like that. But most of the time, people don't want to be the jerk that they may be coming off as right, like, that's at least my experience, I do assume that they want to do well, you know, in all those aspects.

And if they do, I feel like we could almost solve anything. But if there's not a willingness there, and that's the piece, I think that's the third one that I didn't mention is like, are they willing to be coached? Are they do they want to? And are they willing to?

I always reiterate that question when I'm on with anybody, if it's a tough situation, like just to be clear, I had one of these, uh, you know, three months ago, I'm like, to be clear, I've been told that, but are you really game? And you know, this person was like, yeah, I am. And he's been amazing to work with, like so coachable. Right.

So, yeah. So I do go back to the stakeholder, but then again, I, I have huge compassion. If somebody is really doing some not great stuff, like there's probably a reason, Yeah. For that.

And I may never know the exact reason, but I can have a huge heart and empathy for the reason they're being so protective of themselves or so distanced or so whatever it is, right? Assholey. Yes. Assholey.

I think we need to coin that one. That goes on a t-shirt. A little too assholey. Yeah.

Yeah. I actually find I like those folks the most because they're the ones that are often the most broken, which is what they're, you know, they're always putting out this particular way in the world, right? But it's a defense mechanism most often. And they're bullies and they were probably bullies when they were in school.

They were allowed to grow up. They were assholes then. They were assholes. They just grew bigger, right?

And more emboldened. And especially if you get into a leadership role or some sort of position where you have a certain authority over anybody, coworkers, teammates, whatever. They're emboldened by that, but they often don't recognize how big a problem they have become. But they are the most challenging clients to work with, but they're also the most rewarding, in my opinion, because...

when you can bring them around and people actually don't run the other way when they're walking down the hallway, they notice it. Right. And they, they, they recognize that, you know, that, that they have probably robbed themselves of great work experiences, great work relationships, great career paths because they've been their own limiting, you know, um, challenge right so but they're not always the easiest to work with but they know but i think to your point it is a skill gap where somebody else like i had a skill gap because you know i would over serve be overly kind over whatever like i had to learn to be stricter straighter and right between the eyeballs right so that was a skill i needed to develop but still in authenticity with me well oftentimes they need the skill of allowing the vulnerability and the messiness and some of those things in order for them to be more successful.

And again, I think as long as we approach it with that mindset, like it is so gratifying when those turn, you're like, yes, somebody didn't run away down the hall. All right. Yeah, absolutely. I love it.

You know, I would be remiss if we didn't touch on your book though. I love the title enough. What was it that inspired this book and what do you hope people get from it? Yeah, it was one of these things that sort of came.

I thought I'd write a book at some point in time, but I thought it would be much more bullseye on some of the business things or whatever that I teach, and that may still happen. But it was really out of this journey of having left my job and created this space and be building this thing. Again, all the vulnerabilities that came up with that. and that concept of like feeling like not enough so much of the time but really looking at dissecting that right and what was interesting is i had possibilities open up that hadn't been there before from a structure perspective from an insight perspective from a time perspective like you were talking about once those clouds cleared there was a lot of possibilities.

And what I was finding were these two contrary things. On one hand, I would be almost overly critical in that voice of not enough sometimes. But at the same time, I started experiencing these micro moments of enough. And I literally felt it as if it were a being, as if it were a human, as if it were whatever.

So I'd have these little moments in life where I felt the tiny little things in life of these kindnesses, these exchanges between humans were filling me up like I could not imagine. And I was like, holy cow, this is just a different game, right? I had been measuring everything so much in my career by other things when all of a sudden the things that were filling my cup, providing meaning and all that kind of stuff was an interaction with somebody chalking on my sidewalk. It was you know, meeting somebody at a coffee shop.

It was a kindness somewhere the other day, you know? And so, but literally these voices were playing out in my head as two distinct characters, not enough and enough. And I could hear them, hear them, right? And so- the it the book itself it started writing itself in that way i just felt like i was kind of grabbing the stories as i went and even i have worked with publishers in the past or authors that have put out books i also knew like i'm not allowed to overthink this you're just gonna do a hybrid publisher and put it out this is not we're not going for like new york times bestseller here like this is just you need to birth it the interesting thing was Once the book was finally published, what I really realized was all of that was actually for me.

I love that it can serve and contribute to other people, but I am almost now beginning to live those concepts at a much deeper level that I talked about in the book. So it almost felt like, boy, there were all these downloads of things, but they were the things I most needed to be guided by in some ways. And so, you know, what I hope people would get if they were reading it is understanding that distinction, that really deep awareness between enough and not enough. I talk in the book about boundaries, which was not something I was super strong at.

A chapter that's beautiful boundaries, zero apologies. And it really is what we've been talking about. Like, if I'm building my own game as a human, as an entrepreneur, what are my rules? What are my guiding principles?

How do I do that? And how do I... how am I willing to say no to the societal norms? Like an example of this is like a friend had invited me to a fundraiser.

Well, if I didn't have a conflict before I would have gone, but instead in this new compass and journey, I looked inside. I'm like, that is not the right use of me for that weekend. I need to rest. I need to restore.

I need to whatever. And so I would say genuinely, thanks for the invite, but no. And in the beginning, it was no with an excuse. And then I took the excuses out and it was just no, not a fit for me.

To the point where like my friend and network now knows, like if I commit to something, I'm there, there. And if I say no, it is no offense to them. It has nothing to do with it. It's just not right for me at that moment.

But that was a whole muscle to work on. I worked on that muscle. I worked on the muscle of comparing myself to other people. I worked on a lot of these things.

And so people reading the book, I would hope that they would find what resonates for them and hopefully find some simple ideas about ways to think about things that's a little bit more fueling from the inside, creating the game we want to play. And the subtitle, the title is Enough and the subtitle is finding peace in a world of distractions hustle and expectations and i think that's the wish also right it's like it's so easy to get caught up in you said it the hustle videos like i have to limit my own screen time because if i start going down there that's toxic for me right and so and you start comparing and feeling like you're not enough and then oh my gosh i should be doing more and then Exactly.

I should be doing it this way, or this is the only way to do it. And it's just not true. Right. And I think that's part of it is like, I don't want that narrative to live within me because it's false.

You and I both know we've met so many people doing all different things in all different ways. So there's a lot of things that can work. And the reality is we get to choose that for ourselves. Doesn't mean it won't be hard.

You don't have to do tough stuff, but there's a lot of options out there. And so, you know, what I would want for people is to sort of have that, felt sense of the enoughness and know that like, I'm not, I'm not naive like that. Not enough is always going to be there. I just work on turning down the volume really lowly, you know, really low so that I'm not paying that much attention to it.

Um, and there's a lot of things I use in my coaching that are in there, like some concepts on bulletproof grace, in different environments. Like how do you stay true to yourself even when you are getting attacked and some stuff's coming at you, you know? So yeah, but I think in some ways it was a thing to serve, but it's ended up probably serving me the most. I, you know, it's, it's funny.

I've interviewed a lot of authors and I, you and I have the exact same concept about our books, right? I wrote it for me and I'm glad that someone else benefits from it. But I, I wrote these things because I needed to, I needed to go through them. I needed to experience them.

I needed to, I needed to give birth to these ideas. One to, you know, validate for my own, sanity, right? That what I was thinking about in terms of the Ripple concept really had a play. But at the same time, what a great ringing endorsement that is for you and for me when we think about our books.

We put it out into the world, but we're also utilizing it, right? Using the old Microsoft eat your own dog food approach, right? Yes. We don't just write this because it's the flavor of the month.

We have utilized this. This is where we've cultured our business and we've structured our approach to living and connecting and engaging in these relationships or approaching our leadership style or our methodology for building our businesses. I think it's really, really important that people recognize that. It's just not another, I have a few folks that I know that are, they're good friends.

They put books out, but they put them out. I've got a good friend of that serial, like latest idea thing. It's great, but it's like, Hey, you know, give me like three great concepts from the book that you produced three years ago. And they can't tell you because they just, well, I'm onto the new book.

It's like, well, then you weren't really heart-centered in the other book. And I just think that there's a lot of value and I loved how you framed it and the approach that you take. And I can't wait to read your book. I'm very, very excited to read it.

But we'll definitely - I think that there's an opportunity and we can talk when we come off the podcast. Yeah. But there's an opportunity for us to even explore your book a little bit more and do some more to promote it because I think that very much everything you said resonates. I think everybody needs to know about the book and you want to definitely sing its praises from the rooftops.

So I know you are super busy and I want to be very respectful of your time. But one of the things I always like to finish up our interviews with, because I could talk to you all day. It's funny, even though third time's a charm, like the resonances are way more than I even knew from what I read about you. So that's such a delight.

Well, I appreciate that. I had an inkling. I'm just so grateful that we stuck with it, right? So good things are worth the wait, right?

That's right. That's right. But we always like to wrap these interviews up with a few Ripple questions, right? I call these Ripple Connection questions.

give people a little bit more insight as to who you are and you touched on this i loved how you um coined the phrase seeker i i the the most interesting people i've met in my entire life are seekers they're they they never you know feel fully cooked they're always looking and they're always exploring what did the seven-year-old version of barbara want to be when she grew up oh my gosh i think she in in earnestness wanted to be an actress a performer a creative a dancer an ice skater a gymnast like all of the things right and it was but really you know you think about um there is a reality of like what you would see women doing i remember i had to actually answer that question in eighth grade we like in our published yearbook and i said at that point in time i wanted to be a flight attendant now it's because like the things i didn't read like i didn't want to be in a classroom doing teaching.

There were things I didn't want. I wanted to travel the world. I wanted whatever. But a lot of that was influenced by what you saw, right?

But I think to this point, what I really wanted was to create. And I loved when you were saying about your book, that's what I feel like. I think we very much underestimate what it is to make something, to create something, and to put it out it doesn't have to have a purpose beyond the actual act of creation and so i think i'm somebody through all those venues like you know would never have had the skills to do the ice skating or any of those things or the gymnastics or the dedication frankly but it was like making something and leaving a legacy that's beautiful and i feel like that's part of the core luma business thing is i'm gonna do that no one may ever know about it that's okay but i get to create something in this season of my life as well.

And it's such a rewarding experience, right? To put something out there that wasn't there before. And it's out there because you're the only person that could put it out in the way you put it out. I think that's phenomenal.

I was thinking about this next question in terms of When you were growing up, you touched on, I mean, it sounded like you were a very high achiever, right? You did a lot of things, but was there a book or movie that inspired you before you graduated high school? It could be from fifth grade on, right? Was there a book or movie that really inspired you that helped you either realize, hey, one day I'm going to go out in the world and I'm going to accomplish my own thing or I'm going to write a book or I'm going to, You performed this one woman play.

I mean, it sounds like you were just an exceptionally creative person. I was just curious if anything really stood out from your younger days that maybe have informed who you became. Well, two things came to mind. So one was the Little House on the Prairie series that You know, any young women of my age, you know, it was you got these young women out on a frontier, you know, battling bears, trying to stay safe, learning how to whatever.

So that one. But what really struck me, I don't know the name of it and I need to go find it. It was a book I read as a kid. And it was kind of a tragedy story in the sense that a young girl who was probably about my age at that time.

maybe she was like sixth grade or something, ends up sort of on the streets, but in a country, not urban setting. And she's having to take care of two younger siblings. And this is so strange, but I loved like her ingenuity. Like it was...

We have one potato and one penny. And how can we get this other thing? And how can I turn that into a meal? And how can I?

But there was something very much. I loved the creativity that was involved in that, even though they were just trying to survive. She was so incredibly reliable in her ability to figure it out. And I never thought about it till you asked the question, but like it is the self-efficacy.

You know, there was something she was demonstrating to say, I can. And In the story, all this adversity happens and stuff. They have stuff, it leaves, all that kind of stuff. But there are three poor kids making it without parents on the thing.

And she kept figuring it out. And I think I really want to go back and figure out what that book was. But it moved me because I thought, again, at that age, I think I thought, I can. I don't know what I can do, but I can figure something out.

I can do something, et cetera. And again, this is where I think even creativity as an idea, We do it in business all the time. It's not an art thing. It's a, gosh, how do I get these people to talk in a way they weren't talking?

That is a way of wrapping our mind around something and trying to put something out there that serves too. I love that. Five years from now, what will success look like for you? I think, am I still orienting to my compass, right?

I think in the wave, the magic wand, I'd like to have a lot more financial success that doesn't require my time. What I want to be doing is I want to be able to share with you a dozen stories of things I lifted up that aren't, I don't like, I can be behind the scenes. No one needs to know I did it, but that things were different out there because I was there. Oh, I love that.

What does, what do you want your legacy to be? Well, I think my legacy for myself is the same that I say about my kids, which is very different than when they were little. When they were little, I was working on achievements for them also and living my life through them. But what I say are three things.

I want you to love yourself as much as you possibly can, right, to really appreciate you as a unique being. not for anybody else. I want you to surround yourself with people who love you and care about you and have your back. And the third thing is at the end of days, like I do a lot of fast forwarding to the end of days moment.

I just want to be a net positive on the planet. I don't care what that looks like. It might've been because I cleaned out one bathroom, somebody didn't, but at the end of days when it's all measured up, that's what I would like to do. So I'd say that, that that's what I wish for my kids, but it's really what I wish for myself.

Oh, Barbara, that's beautiful. I love that. Last three questions, but they're short. When you think of or hear the concept of the ripple effect, what does the ripple effect mean to you?

What does that conjure up? Well, the biggest thing that was an immediate resonance and why I was interested in this conversation is I think about when I started my business. And I would go meet with people and I'm just having some of the people I hadn't seen in a while. Some are people, whatever.

I didn't have to have a logical follow on or conclusion. And I would say this to people all the time, which I felt like make it true. I would often say like, I don't know why I'm here with this person for this thing. And that's not mine to figure out, but I do feel like there's nothing's by accident.

And it's a reason. And I feel like that's the ripple, right, is me showing up fully as myself looking for ways to contribute, to care, to connect has an impact. And I know it in my DNA. It doesn't mean our world's going to measure it.

It doesn't mean I can logically explain it to other people. But that is the beauty of that. And I have now five years into business seen it play out more ways than I could think. Oh, gosh, I never knew that was going to connect to this, which was going to connect to this other thing.

And that's not my job to do. My job is not to map out the impacts of the ripple. It's to be the drop in the pond and show up and see what happens. And that's all that I'm responsible for.

But I need to do that with as full of authenticity as I can. Well, no doubt you show up in the world that way. I can see you're one hell of a Rippler. No doubt.

I want a shirt that says that. We're going to create our t-shirt empire before we're done here. Exactly. What is one ripple that I can look to create for you in 2026?

I think you're doing it, frankly. I mean, it really is just exposure and sharing. Because again, even for me, it's not like a direct link to a business. It's not like, oh, I need this kind of new client.

It just really is having these discussions in a way that those who resonate will resonate. So I don't have a wish beyond this, frankly. This is lovely. Well, thank you.

I got to be honest with you. I see an interview a lot of people. The thing that I really am most impressed about with you is that you light up when you talk about the work that you do, which tells me you're absolutely on the path you are destined to be on. And it's easy to support great people doing great work.

And so I look forward to continuing to explore that. as we move forward with our friendship, because now you're stuck with me. So, you know, you got a friend in us. Well, I was going to say this is a mutual question.

So I am going to want to know the same thing from you, which is how I can help and support and all that kind of thing. Because I think beautiful work. Well, we'll save that for the sequel, but I'm going to think about it because I do think that we have a lot of commonality. I think there's a lot of opportunity for two introverts to get together and do something really fun.

Yeah. At our minimum, we have to make our shirts. Yeah, absolutely. We've got, yeah, we've got four.

I mean, our t-shirt empire is on its way. That's right. That's right. The last question I have for you is what's the best way for people to learn about your work and, you know, get the book and, you know, how do you want them to follow you?

Yeah, I think to learn just about my business and thing, it's corluma.com. So C-O-R-L-U-M-A.com.

And then to get the book, you search Amazon, Barnes & Noble, et cetera, all the sources. But you have to look for Enough by Barbara Burgess, because there are a couple of books called Enough. So if you want to find mine, you got to search that way. And within the website, there's more information about the book and other things.

But I think that does it. Well, for those of you that are listening to this on the podcast, be sure to go look for it like Barbara suggested. For those of you that are following on YouTube, or even if you're listening, you come over to my YouTube. We're going to have the links in the show notes.

So you'll have that accessible so you can click on all the things to connect and engage with Barbara and get the book. Barbara, thank you so much. Let me just say you are one hell of an interesting person. I'm so grateful that we got the opportunity to do this.

And I'm excited to continue the conversation. Ditto. It feels like it went so fast and that's a beautiful thing. It did for sure.

Well, guys, we'll be back with another episode of The Ripple Effect very soon. But until then, Barbara, ripple on. Thank you.