Leadership Under Pressure: Lessons From a Marine Leader (The Ripple Effect Podcast ft. John Dailey)

Unknown: Guys, I am constantly filling this small brain with big ideas, which means I pay attention to a lot of different podcasts. In fact, it is my way of unwinding. It's my way of leveraging time that I invest in the gym or on a walk or a hike, and keep my brain engaged. It's the podcast that actually encouraged me to think bigger and to look at things from a different perspective.

One of the podcasts that I love is by a guy by the name of Joe Byerly. It's come from the it's called from the green notebook, and he features military leaders. And I have learned so much from this podcast, but that podcast led me to today's guest, which is a gentleman by the name of John A Daly. He is ex military.

He is a marine badass. Everybody that you run into you know, is going to either be the good example or the good example of a bad example. Finding someone who kind of has what you want is, you know, the position that you want, or the temperament that you want, or the respect that you want. You know, finding somebody and just saying, Hey, let me kind of model myself after after this person, and the second half of that is, and we don't do it in the military as well as we should, but I do believe, and I encourage young Marines to go up to that person and say, Hey, I like the way that you operate.

You know, would it be okay if I come to you from time to time and just ask you questions, be a mentor? And that sounds weird. Nobody wants to do it, but you know, the first time, you know, that happened to me, you know, a young Marine came up. I was like, man.

I'm like, of course, yeah, that's, that's, that's really awesome. John A Daly lives in Hubert, North Carolina. John A Daly joined the Marines at 17, leading to a career of over 20 years spent working in special operations with tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. He received his MFA in creative writing from the University of North Carolina Wilmington.

He wrote a book called tough, rugged bastards. And I can just tell you, after I listened to that interview that he did on the green from the green notebook, I was hooked, and I reached out to him on Instagram. I'm like, sir, could I please interview? Could I have you on my podcast?

Because I believe that he has, he's just, he's phenomenal. He's got a great voice. He has a great message. He has an entire brand, and he's built off of this concept.

He's prolific writer. He's got two different sub, sub stacks. We'll put those links in so you can see it. But this gentleman is a really, really powerful soul.

I love what this is when he describes the book is a memoir of an ordinary guy who seized an extraordinary opportunity to become one of the most elite war fighters in America during the most volatile times in the global war on terror. It just gives me goosebumps to know that I am so lucky to have a conversation with a true American hero, and with no further ado, let's dive into This conversation with John a daily. Guys, I am so grateful to have John Daly join us today with the ripple effect podcast.

How are you doing, sir, I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Steve, thanks. I am so grateful that you agreed to do this.

Just a little bit of background. You know, I listened to your episode with Joe Byerly on from the green notebook, and I listened to that three or four times. I've got to be honest with you, I not only you know, and obviously that's just audio, so I only knew your voice. And I'm like, This guy has a voice for a podcast.

I mean, yeah, you've got a really, really compelling and in a comforting voice, which I suspect in what you do and how you you've gone about your leadership makes that a critical asset. But I loved what you shared in that interview, and made me fascinated about your work and the book and all that you were doing. And I just I was blown away that you responded so quickly to my message to you and and your your real kindness in helping navigate our schedule so that we could get this interview scheduled.

But you know, thank you so much for doing this, and thanks for being here. Oh, again, I'm happy to be here. I'm excited to learn about, you know, everything that you can share, right? I have a whole list of questions, but honestly, I really like to approach this from just a genuine conversation, right?

And at the end of the day, one of the things that I was really fascinated by was the fact that you joined the Marines at age 17. What was that at age 17 that inspired you to want to serve the country the way you did? Well I had, I had to say. Decided long before, when I was a kid, and I tell that story kind of in the in the book, but it was, you know, it was something that it kind of stuck with me.

And during the, like, all the intervening years, I had other things that I wanted to be a truck driver, was a big one. I had an uncle that drove long haul trucks, and that's just, yeah, fascinating, you know, a baseball player, all those things, but, you know, I kept coming back to the the idea of being a Marine, and I was fortunate when, or I got unfortunate when I was getting ready to go into high school. My parents divorced, and it kind of took me by surprise. But we, you know, I stayed, stayed with my mother and my younger siblings, and we moved.

And happened to for a brief time, while we were trying to find some place to live, had an apartment that was very, very close to a strip mall that had the Marine Corps recruiters office in it. And he was great. I mean, I was going into ninth grade, so I was years from being able to join, but he kind of took me under his wing and let me, you know, hang out. So it was, it was that definitely solidified it.

He went on to, he was gone to another assignment before I was actually able to to enlist. But, you know, he definitely made an impact. You know, kind of at a critical time in my life, sure, you know, and solidified this idea that this is what I wanted to do. Did you I've got to ask, because I'm all about connections.

Have you stayed in contact with him over the years? Were you able to ever track him down? Do you see everything that you accomplished throughout your career? You know, just, it's funny that you asked that, because I had never thought about it until about several months ago, and I got on like LinkedIn and social media and tried to find him, and was unable to.

So, you know, his staff sergeant. He was a staff sergeant at the time. Shirley was his last name, which was a So, yeah, if he's listening, then yeah, shoot me. Drop me a line.

I would definitely like to, like to thank you. Well, you know, we've got a wide diverse audience, so we have a lot of sleuthing folks. Maybe we can find him for you, because talk about what an impact, obviously, he made on your life at a very pivotal time and and look what it accomplished Give, give our audience just a sense of what you've done through your military career. Obviously, you know, 911 was a very impactful component to, you know, sort of your story, and kind of how that book came about.

But I sense that there was, you know, kind of a higher calling and purpose and what you were doing to, you know, to show your patriotism and to defend this country and the freedoms that we are lucky to have. But I'm curious as to just the sort of the backstory. And obviously you know, how you progress through the Marines and become, you know, you know, leading a, you know, one of the special units that you know was so significant in the war against terror. Just give our audience a sense of your career path, and sort of any you know, any highlights that you might be willing to share absolutely so I joined in 1987 graduated from high school, and within a couple of weeks, I was at boot camp and from a very small town in West Virginia.

So it was a to say it was a culture shock. Was putting it mildly. Yeah. So the, you know, just people, you know, young young men from other parts of the country that, and it's primarily east of the Mississippi, are the Marines that go to Paris Island.

So you know, guys from Philly, New York, that are just, you know, big city guys that I had never experienced. Of course, the drill instructors, you know, you know, screaming at you, throwing things at you, grabbing you back then was, was unique. But I and kind of like we were talking about before, my intent was to get as far away from home as possible, yeah. So when I finished with boot camp and then infantry school, I signed up, or I had requested to go to Okinawa initially, but they sent me to California.

So, big difference, big difference. But you're still still pretty far away, farther, by many factors, than I had ever been from home before. So and I would wind up spending the bulk of my time in California, but through a fluke or a mistake, a clerical error, I wound up getting, getting stuck at barely 18 years old, into a sniper platoon as my first duty station in the actual in the real Marine Corps after after Infantry School. And that was, again, an experience.

It was a position that was usually took some time and proving yourself before you were afforded the opportunity to try out. And I was kind of thrown in as as a kid who was barely 18. I. Everybody hated me because of that.

And so it really, it really became, you know, an opportunity to prove myself or or fail. And you know, I was never a great student, you know, never really, you know, great athlete. But you know, I was kind of the guy who was always going to, you know, keep getting up every time he got knocked down. And that was, you know, that paid off, that paid dividend.

So, you know, I eventually, I was kind of able to win over the Marines I was working with. And, you know, they kind of then took me under their wing, and, you know, taught me all of the, you know, a lot of the things I needed to know, and was able to become trained as a sniper. And that was kind of a pivotal, you know, really pivotal time for me, because I had read, there was a book about a sniper in Vietnam, a marine sniper who had was had what they believed to be the, the highest number of successful missions.

And so I had read that just before joining the Marine Corps. So that was, you know, what was in my head and what I wanted to do. So being able to accomplish that within the span of a couple of years, I was, you know, definitely set the kind of the stage, I guess, for me saying, Well, man, you know, if I could do this, then I can, you know, what's next? What's the next big thing I want to try to do.

So was it, were there lessons in those early days? Obviously, like you said, you had to sort of find your way into and, you know, gain the trust and sort of the camaraderie of your fellow Marines. But obviously, you you did that exceptionally well. What?

What was it about that time in that experience, you know, were there lessons that you took from that that has informed, you know, some approach that you've taken from a leadership perspective later on in your career? Yeah, absolutely, great question. I think, you know, I learned very quickly. I was, I said, not a great athlete, not a great student.

I was kind of the smallest kid and most, you know, I get my grades, so in order to survive that, you kind of have to be a bit of a wise guy. You and I have that in common. I guess on all levels. It sounds like I kind of quickly learned that, hey, you know, keep your mouth shut.

You know, you got two ears and one mouth for a reason. Pay attention. And I think one of the, and I don't even know that I realized it, a lot of things I didn't realize at the time. But when I the very first night, when they put me in this, this first unit, one of the Marines who had been around for, been in for about four years had, you know, kind of came over and was, you know, telling me, just unloading like this, these guys are no good this, you know, blah, blah, blah, here's why I'm I never got to go to sniper school.

They I got screwed. And just all of these, like, Hey, man, you know, trying to, you know, feed me beers. And I'm like, Man, this is, this is strange, you know, I was, I thought that the corporals in the in this, this guy was a corporal. I was a proud, you know, I thought the corporals were supposed to be like, you know, mean to you, and yeah, then a little bit later, or the next night, another Marine comes in, and he was a corporal, and he was just come back from, from completing sniper school.

And he was just like, hey, you know, I'm Corporal Smith, you know, he we weren't on a first name basis, like the other guy, sure. He's like, you know, I just, I wanted to come check in, make sure you got, you know, you know where to go to eat, and the child everything. And he was strictly business. But he was, you know, looking after my welfare.

And I kind of it was kind of like a good angel and the devil on your shoulders, like, you know, who is it that, you know, the guy who's going to give me, give me beer, and probably doesn't have my best interest at heart, who's, like, kind of talking bad about the whole platoon, and I later found was just getting ready to, you know, get out of the Marine Corps, you know, or this guy who wasn't going to be my friend, but was, you know, making sure didn't like me. He was still, you know, hated the fact that I had gotten into the platoon, but wanted to make sure that I knew how to get my mail, knew how I, yeah, knew everything still looking out for you.

Yeah. And that was a lesson that absolutely carried with me, even though I didn't realize it, like I said at the time, that's I love that which, which one had a bigger impact in terms of how your leadership style kind of evolved, I would imagine the positive one, but I also think that the negative one could have some really strong applicability as well in terms of what not to do. Yeah, yeah. I think there's always, you know, I always say that there's good examples and then there's good examples of bad examples, right?

You know, the first one, his name was Mike Smith. He wound up, you know, we continue to serve together for a while when I, when I had the opportunity to go to. Sniper school. He was my, one of my instructors, and we wound up becoming great friends.

But he definitely had a huge impact. The other the other guy, whose name I won't, won't give, yeah, just which was within a matter of days, had exited the Marine Corps to go on to do whatever it was that he was going to do. So he had little impact. But definitely, you know, it did, I guess it did leave an impact, right?

I just remembered that, you know, later years that, hey, it's not about, you know, as a leader, you don't need to have friends among the people that you that work for you, or you don't have to be, you know, but you still have to look out for them. And if you are trying to be their friend instead of looking out for them, then that's, you know, kind of going down the wrong road. Well, yeah, I'd love to explore that just for a second, because obviously, you've got this book, there's a lot about leadership, there's a lot about, you know, grit and determination.

But there's also about, you know, sort of becoming who you are, who you're really destined to be. And I think when you look at that through the lens of a leader, whether it's a military leader or business leader, I'm curious as to how you would help people that that are like I'm trying to find my way as a leader, or I work for really bad leader. Where do I seek out leadership if I don't have it on the daily? And you got lucky one night after the other, you got a real contrast in the examples.

But you speak a lot about leadership, and so I'm really curious about what you think of great leadership and what that takes, and then what you also think about bad leadership and how to overcome it. I mean, there are a million different ways to lead. You know, some are obviously better than others. Some work better in some situations than others do.

But there are, I think, the two key components, and there's a saying in the Marine Corps that, or a question, I guess, that's always posed. Or really the two purposes of Marine Corps leadership. One is mission accomplishment, and the second is troop welfare, you know, taking care of your people. And there's the question is always, you know, which is more important?

And I think as as a young leader, it's got to be mission accomplishment, right? We've got, I mean, that's the whole reason that we exist. And if you are own a company. I mean, you exist to make money, and if you can't make money, then you won't have a company.

And you're, you know, you're not doing much for the people that used to work for you, taking good at the troops. Yeah, right, exactly. So, so that's, that's certainly, you know, one way of looking at it, and then the other, which, I think, as you mature, I guess, or as you get a little older, you realize that if you once you're in a position to truly take care of the people, and taking care of them doesn't mean giving them beer and being a friend. Taking care of them means giving them the opportunity to grow, give them, giving them the trust to take chances, hopefully, you know, maybe not always be successful, but you know, giving them what, what we call in the military Commander's Intent, like, Hey, here's, here's what I want you to accomplish, you kind of figure it out.

And if you can do that, then you're that's really taking care of the of the employee, of the Marine, of your subordinate, whomever it may be. So I think you can be those things have to be balanced. Obviously, there are times when, like, Yeah, I know it's your well in the Marine Corps, you know, I know it's your kid's birthday. Don't care.

You're going overseas, because that's the mission. You know, that's that's probably less applicable, hopefully in the civilian world, but, you know, we have to have both of those things. You know, we feel we're not good at the job that we're assigned, then we're not demonstrating anything to the people both, right? Yeah.

So we need to, we need to be, you know, both of those things, and recognize that at different times. You know, each of those will take priority. I got to believe, just based on your experience and obviously the book, which we'll talk about here in just a minute, you've been afforded a lot of opportunities to share a lot of your thoughts and experiences with a lot of different audiences, many of which are businesses and business leaders. I'm curious when you do get the opportunity to talk specifically around leadership and, you know, adaptability, and many of the things that you're you've learned through the military that do have direct applicability to the civilian world and the civilian, you know, marketplace, in terms of companies and their growth when, when you have somebody that knows that they're maybe not a great leader, or they're not they're not being served by a good leader, what do you recommend for those people?

They're like, you know, I really, I really want to fix this. I really want to do better, either myself or I want to be able to recognize that this is not the only lens I should be looking. Walking through like, you know, your your your colleague that night that you know, wanted to feed you beers and just complain. What would you suggest somebody that might be going through that you know, what they can do to, you know, save their own situation, if you will?

Yeah, I think one of the places, and I think the military, does this a little bit better than in the civilian world, but not, not horribly, is, you know, I think we do a terrible job of the first time we move, you know, someone is good at their job, and then we put so we're like, okay, so you're good at whatever the job is. Now we're going to put you in charge of other people that do the job, and that's promoted to your level of incompetence, right? Yes. But that first, that first promotion, is critical, I think, and that's where, you know, companies would do, you know.

And I do get the opportunity to come in and sometimes talk with those people. It's, it's often, you know, it's a good company, I think, or a good business that will, they're used to spending, spending their training dollars on their the executives, you know, but really, I feel that that first level, going from being a doer to a, you know, a leader of doers, is is kind of a critical time if you're not afforded, you know, an opportunity, or you don't have, I mean, first would be To seek a mentor.

I think that's really important. And I encourage everybody to do that, find somebody. And I did it kind of unknowingly and without with that Marine, that other corporal, Mike. I'm like, you know, I just, I'm gonna watch you, and I want to see what he didn't know he was my mentor.

I don't think I just watched what he did. I tried to take on as much of the good things as I could. There's, I mean, there are books, obviously, there's some that are really good. I think five levels of leadership is one that's, yep, that's pretty good.

But I think it's just, you know, if nothing else, recognizing that, hey, I've got to do two things, you know, and that's accomplish the mission, and I've got to take care of my people. Then, you know, I think you can learn enough along the way, hopefully. I mean, in most cases that first level, you you have the ability to fail, you know, without failing, you know, horribly, you know, or without, you know, in the like in the military, that would be like a fire team leader or a squad leader, yeah, and they're you, you're given some authority, you're given a little bit of rain to run, but not enough to really do any harm, right?

So then that's, I think, you know, the case, and a lot of initial leadership opportunities is, you know, I've got, I've got left and right, relatively tight left and right limits, and I'm probably frustrated by those, but you know, as long as I'm bouncing, you know, between those two guardrails, and I'm not going to damage the company, I'm not going to, you know, kill any of my employees, and you have the opportunity to learn, you know, I think a lot of times, we're reluctant to make mistakes and learn it.

As long as you're, you're learning from them, then, you know, I think that, and everybody's, you know, goes home with all their fingers and toes, probably a good day. Yeah, you mentioned that, you know, going back to, you know, your school years, that school wasn't your thing, right? It wasn't, you know, you weren't a strong student, but you seem like a very consummate learner. Where?

Where did that come from? Was that just, you know, I find with the really great leaders, and I don't know if this is I could say this with 100% certainty, but many of the entrepreneurs that I've interviewed, entrepreneurs that I've studied, you know, people that have gone done great things, thinking all the way back to Steve Jobs. He hated school. I hated school.

I could recognize and understand that, you know, I was good enough to do just enough to, you know, stay out of trouble. But, you know, it wasn't my thing. But the really, good, really, I would say, intuitively creative and the innately curious people often aren't the best in those kinds of structured environments. Do you find that was the case for you?

And then when you got into this arena, right? It was a completely new set of circumstances. But there's so much to learn, not just about what the Marines wanted you to do, but really how to live and be a man in that environment, which is, you know, you know, it's kind of feast or famine. So how did that, you know?

How do you think that impacted you as as an individual, in terms of your growth and immaturity? Yeah, absolutely, I was always a reader. I love to read. I mean, I was fortunate.

My dad had a just a huge bookshelf of kind of everything from history things to like the Hardy Boys and Tarzan and Zane Dray and just just stacks and stacks of books. And while I was, yeah, not a good. Student, I just voraciously. I would read, you know, a book a day.

I just loved that's awesome. And love learning. And it's just I didn't love learning, what the, you know, the teachers, what they were teaching, yeah, and I think that's the case with a lot of people who both people who join gravitate towards the military, because you're, it's doing, you know, there's a lot more doing than there is kind of book learning. But also for people who are more creative, I think, and I don't, I, you know, had not thought of myself when I was in the Marine Corps.

The Marine Corps doesn't really foster, necessarily, when you're young, creativity, you know, later, at higher ranks, obviously, they were flexible, yeah? And do it well, right? Because now you have bigger problems, and you have to figure ways to solve them that may not have existed before, but because you're dealing with problems that haven't existed before, yeah, but, but yeah, I think that's that's absolutely the case. And of course, the Marine Corps has all kinds.

But there are a lot of, you know, you're often surprised when you just, you randomly start talking to a marine and he starts quoting poetry to you, or he starts, you know, yeah, I, you know, talk about a book, and he said, Oh yeah, I read that, you know. And you're like, All right, yeah, we're not. We kind of come across as crayon eaters is the term that other other services use for Marines. But we got some relatively intelligent folks.

Yeah, I've, I know several, and they are some of the highest level thinkers that I think I've ever met in my life. And really, you know, certainly when you know shit hits the fan, they're the people you want behind you, right or in front of you, but they're also the people that will make you challenge your way of thinking. I think that you know a few of them that I know that have become leadership coaches or are running companies. They have become really, really fantastic at you know, like you said, Know the mission bring their people along, and they're committed and looking out for the betterment of everybody, but especially the people that they they are chosen to lead.

And it is really, it's really quite powerful. And you said, you're not a good student, however, doing my research, obviously you're an author, but you also went and got your masters at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington. So you clearly figured out the student thing, because you came back and, you know, obviously kick some ass there. So tell us about that journey.

Yeah, yeah, I figured out one that I do. It's not that I don't I, but I love to learn. It's just again. Like I said, I didn't love learning what they were.

I didn't see the value in particularly math. I was just a horrible, horrible student at math. So I think math nine was necessary, and then algebra one, and it was, you know, I only passed algebra in high school because the teacher had been in Army Special Forces. He was a Green Beret, and knew I was joining the Marine Corps.

And I think he just wanted to, you know, get me out. Didn't want the, you know, the idea of me sticking around for another year, if he if he failed me. But, you know, I then I joined the Marine Corps, and, you know, getting to be a sniper, you very quickly realize is, is nothing but math, like ballistics and ballistics is math. And then as I, as I went through going to dive school, it's physics, right?

It's a whole lot of particularly as a diving supervisor, you know, understanding gas laws and and things, and then explosives and, you know, jump master, where you throwing people out of aircraft. There's a whole lot of so, you know, I realized that, yeah, it's, it wasn't that I'm not good at math. It's, it's that I didn't see the value in it. And once, once I did, you know, it started to make more sense.

So I was able to, I realized it just shortly after 911 I came back from Afghanistan that I needed to start learning more. You know, at some point I was going to get out of the Marine Corps. And at that point, I've been in about 14 years or so, and so I I started in the Marine Corps has a great the services all do, but a great program that's all tuition assistance, and they'll provide you with funding to take classes. And so I just started, whenever I wasn't deployed, just kind of chipping away at a, initially, a bachelor's degree in Homeland Security Studies, right?

So I thought I was going to, it made sense, right? I was going to get out, make a, make a million dollars, you know, as as you know, advising companies and things like that, and that, of course, didn't happen. But when I did eventually leave the Marine Corps, I had, I still had. The GI Bill, which is enough to send you through four years of school.

And so I was able to finish two masters, a master's in liberal studies, which was I just wanted to be able to learn what I wanted to learn. And so I, you know, it was a lot of literature, a lot of philosophy and things of that nature. And then at the completion of that, my thesis advisor said, Hey, you really, you know, you seem to like writing, you know, why don't you apply to this Master of Fine Arts program that we have? And I applied, you know, somehow they they let me in.

And so I, you know, wound up with another masters, and that was all, you know, three, three degree programs, you know, paid for by the Marine Corps and the GI Bill. So that's the plane, yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. So that obviously led you to, you know, embrace, like you're like you said, you obviously were recognized as a good writer, and tell us about how the book, which I love, by the way, tough, rugged bastards.

I mean, what a perfect title. Your prolific writer on sub stack, we're going to include your for everybody that's listening to this or watching it on YouTube. We'll definitely include both links to the sub stack channels that you've created. But you are really, really good at what you do.

But tell us specifically about the book and sort of what inspired it. And, you know, you obviously have in all the time we have, and we can't go into everything for for your very, very decorated career and what you've done to to really defend and support this nation. But I want to, you know, want to just say thank you from the bottom of my heart and for our audience, you know, for what you've done, but you're a true American hero, and I this book really encapsulates what you went through and and you were, you were, you were breaking barriers right for the Marines, and what you were asked to do at a very, very pivotal time for our country, yeah, but it's kind of lucky to be, you know, at the right place, at the right time, or, you know, unlucky.

Maybe it depends on how you look at it, but to kind of try to answer that, you know, timeline sense. So after being a sniper for a while, I was able to move into what the Marine Corps called force reconnaissance, and that was at the time, it was the highest level that you could kind of hope to achieve. We were responsible for parachuting behind enemy lines and doing reconnaissance, doing hostage rescue missions and things of that nature. So it was super, super cool, and it was just an incredible group of Marines that it was very physically challenging.

You know, it's very most emotional, emotionally, mentally demanding place to work. But I got there in 2000 and or 1992 like three, and stayed there through for almost 10 years, and kind of worked my way up through the ranks, you know, getting promoted, and was with, you know, I was finally, kind of given, given the role of platoon sergeant. So I had my own platoon of Marines. We were on routine deployment in and we're had just left us the United States.

We were in Australia. Just got our, you know, first night in town. We'd been training with the Australians. I had my team leaders said, Hey, let's all go out to a bar, just hang out.

We were all like, old, married guys, so we're like, hey, we'll just, just hang out in a sports bar while the young guys were running around, you know, looking for doing what young guys do, right? Yeah. And the television screen that had a soccer game on, you know, switch to the first tower. And so that was, yeah, we were, we were relatively well lubricated by that point.

But we, you know, not, not so much that we didn't recognize that, hey, this is, you know, it changes everything. So we were kind of rushed back onto the ship, you know, set sail that night, and by, you know, October, we were in Pakistan, establishing some of the first locations for refueling aircraft and airfields that would enable troops to fly in to Afghanistan. And by Thanksgiving, I think we were in Afghanistan, and it stayed through so based on both the start of the war and somewhat based on, I guess my our success, the success of my unit, while I was there, when we returned from that deployment, we were told that the Marine Corps was told that it had to start up a unit that would answer to us, Special Operations Command.

I. So that had the US Special Operations Command had been formed in 1987 and it was really an outcome of the failed attempt to rescue the Iranian hostages in 1979 1980 so it took a while, but they they said, Hey, we need a unit that, or a command that kind of oversees all us, special operations and the Marine Corps had declined to participate when, when it initially formed in in 1987 so the the Navy SEALs were a part of it, the army green berets, the Rangers, the Air Force, special operations, but the Marine Corps was not so I think the Secretary of Defense at the time recognized that there was going to be a greater need for special operations in the war on terror, so he told the Marine Corps, this time, you guys are going to participate.

And the Marine Corps has never been big on joining. So so the Marine Corps was like, no, they kind of pushed back as much as much as they could, but they were told, No, you're gonna do this. And likewise, Special Operations Command was, we're fine without Marines. So they're, they're good at breaking stuff, but, you know, maybe we don't, we don't know if they can do the things that will be necessary.

So ultimately, the decision was reached that the Marine Corps would form a small unit of about 100 total personnel that would train deploy, as, you know, underneath the Special Operations Command umbrella, essentially as a seal platoon. So we deployed with a seal headquarters, you know, underneath the seal headquarters, and I was fortunate to be asked to be one of the team leaders for that organization. And then it was called detachment one. And when I was kind of brought in to the commander of this organization, he and I had known him for quite a few years.

I had worked for him a few times, and he, very bluntly, was like, hey, you know what I expect daily? You know, I want tough, rugged bastards with strong backs and hard feet. And that was I walked out thinking, Man, if I ever write a book, that's a title. So that was, you know, we wound up doing, doing well in Iraq.

The the follow on decision was that the Marine Corps would start a much larger, you know, several 1000 person organization called the marine Special Operations Command, or the Marine Raiders and I was able to move from when, when that unit stood up, just hop over, and was tasked with helping start the school to train to build more of these folks. So I did that for a couple of years, and before I retired in 2008 and then I wouldn't, I kept showing up. So they, they gave me a job I've been, but now it's been almost 18 years that I've been, you know, the training and education branch director for, wow, so you're still serving in that capacity, but, you know, as a, theoretically, a civilian now, right?

Yeah, yes, not theoretically, totally a civilian, totally, okay, yeah, I wasn't sure so, yeah, so was that Rumsfeld during that time, obviously, that made that decision, that you guys were going to have it and, you know, figure it out. Yeah, yes, it was, what a historic time, though, for that, that branch of the military, to be a part of that and to to, you know, that's, that's, that's a legacy that will live on, and obviously, still to this day, is continuing to, you know, fight the war on terror and be a critical, steadfast solution to those very difficult, challenging problems and what, what was that experience when you went through it?

It sort of that forming of that, did you envision that to be something that would be long term and long standing for the Marines, or did you think it was primarily just to deal with the circumstances of the day? So I think, well, let's see when the initial unit, detachment, one the small unit, when, when we were formed, we, I think one of the, one of the lessons I'll say that I learned is it was built out of, I mean, everybody was kind of picked. I was able to pick my guys. And so, of course, we were all picking, you know, who we thought were the best, and that's phenomenal, because we weren't just we're the again, like the Door Kickers, but we had intelligence folks that were coming from the NSA or the CIA, just Marines who had been tasked to work at these places.

So just an incredibly phenomenal. Crew. But there comes, you know, problems come with that. So you take a whole bunch of really bit, really big fish, and you kind of throw them into a really small pond, you know, there's going to be growing pains.

And it was, you know, it was, there was absolutely the case. And they're the initially, the four teams of which, you know, I led. One was we were all going to buying for missions. We all wanted to show what we could do that we were better than this guy or that guy.

So it was, there was a lot of hard conversations, a lot of hard times, but it ultimately just made, you know, we each made each other. You know, that much better, I think, during it, so that that portion of the two years, or almost three years that we existed is attachment one. We really believed that we were going to be allowed to grow kind of like a, you know, an amoeba, right, go from one detachment, one to a second attachment to a third to a fourth, and make sure that we kept, like, quality control, you know, able to continue that hand picked idea.

And when the decision was made that you're going to go from this 100 man unit to a several 1000 person unit, you know, that's you can't do that. So you have to put, you know, measures in place to make sure that, you know, everybody's meeting the same training standards and everybody's capable of the same sorts of things. So there was, you know, and I, obviously, I don't say this to be, you know, there was a dip right in, I mean, we were, you know, a bunch of hand picked guys who had been around for an incredibly long time, you know, as far as the Marine Corps concern, very, very senior.

And then the Marine Corps can't sustain that for over a massive force. So there was a point where we're like, Hey, we're going to grab all these people. They're going to be a part of the the organization, and then we'll kind of figure out, you know, how we assess and select them. We'll figure out how we train them later.

So there was some there were a little bit of rocky road in the early days of the Special Operations Command, but that, and that was one of the reasons that I was really felt kind of compelled to be at the school and try to help make sure that we were upholding the legacy of the of the guys who had gone before. That's awesome. And what a, what an incredible way to continue to serve in that capacity, too. And that's, that's, that's really fantastic.

Could, could your 17 year old self ever imagine where you ended up in terms of your career with the Marines, and ultimately what you're doing today. No, I don't think he would have thought that I would have lived this long. But, yeah, I don't, absolutely not. You know, I couldn't have seen this.

I did, you know, have a pretty clear picture in my head that I wanted to get into force recon. You know, being a young, 17 year old, could barely swim. I thought I could swim much better that I could, you know, that's one of the that was one of my struggles. You know, doing forced reconnaissance is, you know, like said, We're divers were, or all these other things.

And so, you know, I think I, I wanted it really, really badly, and I think that was a big part of doing all the things necessary to achieve it. But, yeah, I don't think he would have 17 year old me would have, would have pictured, pictured me here now, yeah, and look at you now. I mean just that, what an amazing testament to you know, all your grit and determination and your willingness to step into circumstances unknown, and often you know, quite tumultuous you know, and still you know, show up and do the best possible job.

And like you said, Take care of your people along the way, which I think is just a testament to your leadership, and tell us just, you know, a little bit about the book and what you would like your your reader to actually get from it. Absolutely, yeah, I never made it to the book. So, you know, it came about after I'd always had it in my head that I wanted to, because, as I said, I love to read, you know, I used to love as a kid in school, writing stories, and that was one of the areas where I did Excel, you know, and was just coming up with with crazy stories or lies.

The it was, it was quite a few years. I mean, I guess it was. The book came out just a little over a year ago, and it took about a year in the writing. So it was approaching 20 years after the, you know, the time that these things happened, that I was writing about, which I think is a, I think is necessary to really write something that's, you know.

Really a memoir, you know, yeah, French, it means memory, right? It's, you know, if you're if something's happening and you're writing about it, you know, the next week, you really don't have time for reflection. So I think that's one of the strengths of it, is that I've spent a lot of time, you know, in the 20 years that preceded it, just kind of thinking about the lessons that I learned. One of the, the the goals that I had for it was obviously to kind of tell the story of these, these Marines that were, you know, started up a unit from nothing and and set the stage for, you know, what would become the Marine Raiders of today.

You know, that was definitely part of it there was, you know, a big part of me wanted to share some of the leadership lessons and just being a Marine lessons with with Marines that, you know, coming up. And another part of it was, was I feel that there are not very many books that a civilian can pick up and read and and really kind of get what it what it is, what it's all about. So I wanted to, you know, a lot of times there's just a lot of acronyms and technical jargon and things that are confusing, even in books that I've read and kind of in research other memoir of like, you know, there's no way a civilian understands this So, enough so just trying to break things down in a way that that somebody could read it and say, okay, you know, I kind of get what, what life is like.

And it's not all, you know, shoot them up stuff. There's, you know, the toll that it takes on families and kids, and, you know, when you a lot of sacrifice, yeah, there's lie, and it's, it's much more on the the people that didn't enlist. I mean, wives kind of, or spouses are, you know, kind of serving too, right? Yeah, maybe, yeah.

But kids, you know, have no, no say so, and it's so, you know, there's, you know, I definitely want to make sure that the full, you know, cost was the life of service is understood. So those were, you know, the big goals I wanted. And, you know, I, like said, I had a relatively interesting life, so I thought, you know, I might as well kind of share it with some people that might get a kick out of it. I love it.

I love it. Well, the title is tough, rugged bastards. I definitely encourage everybody to go pick up a copy. It's, it's on you can, you can get it at Amazon, but y'all, do you sell it off your website as well?

Because you got a lot of merchandise around this concept, right? Yeah, yeah, I do, yeah, you can pick one up there, and I'll sign it. And I think it's probably the same price. It's totally, totally up to you.

Awesome. Yeah, and it's also on Audible too, right? So, yeah, Audible, yeah, John, I could talk to you all day, and I want to be respectful your time. I would love to do a follow up to this, because I didn't get to a third of the questions I'd love to ask you, but I always like to finish these interviews.

You're just such an engaging and really heartfelt individual. And I really, really appreciate had, you know, just showing up and having this conversation with me. But I like to ask these ripple connection questions, just to give people just a little bit further insight, if you don't mind, and you know, we'll wrap it up and be respectful your time. But, you know, I sort of, sort of asked you about your 17 year old self.

But what did the seven year old version of John want to be when he grew up? I think I was seven when I first decided that I wanted to join the Marine Corps. And, okay, I won't go into the long story, but it was, you know, seeing a Marine in 1976 Yeah. So, yeah, that may be seven, not quite seven, because it was the fourth of July.

The Bicentennial is a big, okay, big thing. And I remember seeing him a Marine, and asking my dad, like, you know, what's that guy? And after that, I was just, you know, wanting to read books about the Marines and learn more. So, so he would be pretty stoked that, yeah, I got to do those things that's talk about.

That's destiny for sure. Who, who do you consider your hero? Either someone that you served with, someone that you know you you were led by, or maybe, you know, it sounds like you're a consummate reader of, you know military history, and you know, all sorts of things, but obviously military history, and you know prior styles in terms of leadership relative to military leadership. You know, is there one person that maybe stands out to you as is someone that really had a strong influence, like, you know, coming up, you're like, I want to be more like that guy or that gal, and, you know, you know, sort of serve in that same kind of perspective.

And, yeah, there's, I could go through a massive list, I'm sure. Well, this is long. I was one of the first books about individual marine that I read was about this Marine World War Two. To Korea guy named Chesty Puller, who wound up being a general and was kind of instrumental in the Korean War particularly, and was just known for his absolute toughness.

And I think that was he's one particularly because Monday, I don't know when this will come out, but it's the 10th of November, will be the 250th birthday of the Marine Corps. So, so that kind of has drawn my mind back, you know, as we approach it, to some of the Marines of the past. So, you know, I think he was definitely one that that from, you know, Nicaragua and the banana wars, and the, you know, the early 1800s or the early, I'm sorry, 1900s you know, through Korea, was, you know, somebody who all Marines look up to.

So he would, I'll pick him. I love that. I love that. I'm gonna have to do some research.

That's a that's a nugget I will definitely look into for sure, what's one piece of advice that you might give someone who's thinking about a life of service, much like yours? Man? Again, you know there's, there's tons, but I think probably the best is everybody that you run into, you know, is going to either be the good example or the good example of a bad example, you know. But you know, finding someone who kind of has what you want, or is, you know, the position that you want or the temperament that you want or the respect that you want, you know, finding somebody and just saying, Hey, let me, let me kind of model myself after after this person, and the second half of that is, and we don't do it in the military as well as we should, but I do believe, and I encourage young Marines to go up to that person and say, hey, you know, I kind of, I like the way that you operate.

You know? Would it be okay if, you know, if I come to you from time to time and just ask you questions, you know, kind of be a mentor. And that sounds weird. Nobody wants to do it.

But you know, the first time, you know, that happened to me, you know, a young Marine came up. I was like, man. I'm like, of course, you know, I was hugely, you know, knocked off my feet. I'm like, yeah, that's, that's, that's really awesome.

So I think it's, it can be a great opportunity on both sides, you know, just for the mentor and the the mentee. You know, the mentee obviously learns a lot, but you you know, a lot of times people discount how much you learn. You know, like you said, you have a lot of friends who are coaches. I mean, once you got to really start coaching people, you realize I'm learning a lot more than you know, I probably ought to be paying you.

Yeah? You feel guilty about it a little bit. Yeah, I'm right there with you. I think what you captured right there is really important for everybody to take away, because it isn't natural for people to walk up and go, I really like what you do and how you do it.

Would you teach me, right? But when you do it, you are actually honoring that person in such an incredible way, right? And I have yet to find anybody which is part of you know, sort of the success of this show is asking great people like yourself, Hey, would you share? But when you do that, it's amazing how many people, they are just honored, because they don't actually get an opportunity to do that, and to have somebody, another human being, actually recognize you for what you do, and that you have something positive that they've picked up on, or they've noticed, or that they really would like to learn how to emulate in their own life, or their leadership style or the way they conduct themselves, I think is such a it's actually a gift that you're giving to them.

And like you said, in fact, that relationship ends up becoming a pretty big part of who they recognize in themselves, of what they are contributing to the world. That's a that's a huge ripple effect. Absolutely, absolutely, I love that. I love that.

So last, last three questions. I want to make this one a really, really good one. But if you were, if you were to do anything that you're not, you know, like if you had to say, Hey, I was, I'm, you know, I could, I could pick anything, do anything that would be vastly different from what you're doing today or what you have done, what would it be? What would you have reformed for your life?

If you could have, if, if I could have, yeah, but I would have loved to have been a park ranger or Arctic explorer, you know, I think I was, I was drawn to adventure, you know, but you know, the, you know somebody who, immediately after high school, you know, hiked the app election trail. You know, I still haven't quenched whatever the thirst for adventure I've kind of always had, from when I was a little kid reading the, you know, the Harley boys was. Being great. I think that's, that's probably it.

And I've also, though I've loved, you know, spending, I mean, right now, or 39 years between military and government service, you know, I have, not really, although I'm trying. I guess I'm starting to build something of my own. You know, I kind of have, have always felt that that was something missing and that, which is kind of why I'm working at that now, you know, preparing, preparing for my second retirement, which will the start of my entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial career, I guess, yeah, oh, you'll be fantastic at it.

There's no doubt I have no you know. And if I can help in any way, be of service in any capacity, you know, Sign me up. You can easily convert me as a recruit to help you. Because I really, you know, I think you are an amazing individual, and I would, I think the world needs to learn from you.

I think they need to know about not only your book, but just your your style and your approach, and just what a big role you played. And you know, what has transpired on the war, war and terrorism, you know, I think it's, it's just really, really incredible. So I promised you the last three questions. So the last two would be when you hear the ripple effect.

What does that bring up to you? What does it you know? What does that conjure up for you when you hear that term, when? And just Friday, I attended the retirement of a Marine who had spent 22 or so years and one of the the things that happens every time you do that is the four star in charge of the Marine Corps writes a letter, and then, if he doesn't really write it, but it's a form, essentially, but a part of it says that you know you're the all of the people they just to let the person the marine retiring understand that you know, Everything, everybody that you've led, every you know, are all going to continue long after you have left.

And I forget, I could almost quote the kind of the line, but it's, you know, there's something about the you know, the Marine Corps will feel the effects of your service long after you've left our active ranks. And to me, that's a perfect, perfect example of the ripple effect. It's continued some almost 250, years now here, that's incredible. And one of the best answers I've got, quite honestly, that's fantastic.

What ripple could I create for you? Well, I mean, I think this, hopefully this does it, you know, it just gets the kind of the word out to some people that otherwise I wouldn't have had the opportunity to interact with. And you know, if you know your other podcasts that you think I would, yeah, I would be good on. I would absolutely appreciate kind of throwing a throwing a rock at him.

Absolutely, yeah, we can create those ripples. No problem. John Daly, thank you so much, not only for your service to the country, but just you being you. And I am so grateful that we've connected.

I hope that we can continue the conversation and become friends, because, you know, I definitely need what you have in my life in a big, big way. And I am just so honored, truly honored, to have had you on the show. And guys, the book is tough, rugged bastards. You got to go pick it up.

If you go to his website, and we're going to have that link in the show notes for you, he said he'd sign it for you. I think that would be pretty damn cool. And you're a living legend, and so I'm just so grateful for the time, and I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. But John, thank you.

Thank you so much for the time and rip along right on Steve, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it, and I could have gone on talking for for a while. So I appreciate that.