How to Network Without Feeling Fake (The Ripple Effect Podcast ft. Sasha Grinshpun: Part Two)

Stephen Harper: Welcome back to the Ripple Effect Podcast. I am super excited to bring you part two of my conversation with Sasha. I know you're probably buzzing from that first part, just like I was, and I am grateful that you guys are back for the second part of our conversation. She is amazing, isn't she?

I would love, love, love to hear some of your insights in what you gained from the first episode. I know there were a ton of knowledge nuggets that people probably took down, so share them with me, because I know Sasha would love to know that you guys are appreciating the value of this conversation, and just what came of this authentic friendship that we have that we somehow magically got recorded, so I will speak no more. I will just let you move on to episode two, but like I said before, I'd watch this twice: first time with your head, your heart, and then the second time with your Ripple Connection Journal at the ready to take down the knowledge and the nuggets that Sasha shares during this episode.

So, thanks for coming back. Thanks, as always, to Sasha for the time. And, honestly, I'm going to badger again, so that we can get another interview scheduled as soon as I possibly can. I need Sasha in my life on a more regular basis.

I absolutely think that a lot of you will probably think the same. So, thanks for being back for episode, or the part two of this episode, and with no further ado, let's dive back in. Oh Oh, you, you, and I now I feel really regretful that we don't just hang every week. Unknown: We need to start a commune where we all like grow old together and Stephen Harper: sign me up.

Tell me where my tent goes. I'm there. You touch on a couple of things, right? I love the fact that you're working on that multi-generational client, right, and that's what I would call - is I like have the executive that I work with, but they are so impressed with what you do and what you've brought to their life or their career, they now want some of that magic that you know goes downstream, whether it be to the spouse or whether it be to their kids, and I love that, because that is, that's a mark of a great coach, which I know you are, without question, but I love that.

I also love the fact that you're encouraging people to go out. It isn't about the ask, so tell me what you do question, right? Or the elevator pitch, having that perfected the curiosity goal, being I'm here at across that crossroads thing is golden, right, and it would apply to just about anybody. I'm thinking about making a career shift.

I'm thinking about going down this path of this technology versus that technology, or I am so out of my depth, but part of the reason I'm here is because I want to learn and I want to grow. Tell me a little bit about yourself. What brought you here? Why, you know, why'd you go down this path with your career or whatever, and to your point, some of the best connections I've made had nothing to do with the networking.

It came down to putting the emphasis in the conversation about helping make it safe and encouraging for that other person to open up and invite them to share a little bit about themselves, and that's where the magic is, like that, is that is just incredible. I remember years ago one of the first investors, Mike Maples, was in Microsoft. I got an opportunity. Unknown: Mike is great.

He was actually out in the Bay Area promoting his book, and I got to hang with him for a little bit. He's great. Stephen Harper: So, senior or junior? Unknown: Junior?

Stephen Harper: Junior. Okay, so I haven't yet met Junior. I want to, really bad, because I mean, he is a chip off the old block, but I got to meet Senior when he was one of the first investors in Microsoft, and everybody was pitching him the latest and greatest idea, and he lives, still lives not out, not far from, you know, outside of Austin, but I met him downtown for coffee, and I think he was expecting this, you know, everybody pitches him everything, everything, everybody's there to get something from him, maybe, right?

You know, some sort of investment or whatever, right connection. And I remember, because I'm introverted and shy, I always treat every engagement as an opportunity to learn something, but because I'm shy and introverted, it's easier to put all the attention on somebody else by asking a well thought out question, so I asked him, What would your life have looked like if you had not invested in Microsoft? I mean, it just blew his freaking mind. He, like, had no idea where that question came from, and he started talking about some of the passions he didn't follow through with that weren't even tech related, and we had the most delightful conversation about his family, his upbringing, who he really envisioned himself to be, and how that was sadly different than what he had arrived at at this stage, and I just.

Remember making one comment, I'm like, well, you still got time, right? And he was like, oh my gosh, that's like what a great, you know, great approach. He's like, what exactly did were we here to meet about him? Like, somehow somebody want to talk about it, right?

But it was amazing, like it was the golden ticket to learning who he was and what made him tick, and where the mark he really wanted to leave on this world, and the reason I share that is I take it back to what I think I heard you say, which is the clients that you most like to work, you know, with are the people who have yet to discover the power of that, still struggle to, they look at these influencers like I'd never get there, you know, they look at the people that have really well-crafted networks be like, I'm not sure that I'm, I'm able to do that, you know.

I'm, I'm the most comfortable in my basement doing my brilliance, right? And I call that the brilliance basement brilliance, right? If you don't have the ability to share it beyond the basement, then you're probably not going very far, and yeah, your mom may bring you the cookies, you know, at 3o'clock every afternoon, but that doesn't turn into revenue. And when I think about the types of clients I have most loved working with, those are the underdogs, those are the people that they believe in themselves, they have confidence what they're doing, they just don't know how to frame it, or they don't know how to get in in conversation, and I love expressing my approach with the ripple, and that you don't start there.

You, in fact, stay as far away from whatever it is that you're doing at this point, because you don't want people to think that you're coming across so only focused on the pitch, and the only reason that you're trying to talk to them is because you're a Mike Maples of the world, right? You want to talk to them because you're a Mike, or you're a Sasha, or you're a Steve of the world, and there's curiosity there, and those curiosity conversations, that's just plain money that you're doing, and I think that it's also for me, when I look back at my career, many of the people that are of high influence that I've met all came because I didn't come with some predetermined networking BS, you know, to try and drive a result, but I got a whole bunch of results that came of it because I didn't ask of something, you know, ask them of something right then and there.

I got an opportunity to build that connection in that relationship. So, I think what you're doing is brilliant, and the approach that I think you like to take is very similar to me. I'm, I'm, I'm just the guy that wants the underdog, or the person that just has zero confidence, and I will be that. That to me is the project I love working with, because every single person on this planet has something amazing to offer.

It's just a matter of figuring out how to get it out there and get it up to a point where they feel comfortable to be able to share it and help them understand, hey, you belong in that law, and you belong at the front of that room, or you certainly should not be a shrinking violet, because you are, you're powerful beyond measure, you just need some help in coaxing along the way to get there. Unknown: How do you get them? So, I'm going to turn the tables on you. How do you get them to get over that initial, like, who am I to be doing this, or like, I'm afraid of the no, like, what's..

how do you get them over that chasm? Stephen Harper: Oh, I love that. Yeah, the who am I piece is, is, is really the fun one, because at the end of the day, you know, if it's not you, then who will it be? I can give a list of great ideas that I came up with that I never ever took beyond my workbench or beyond the design that there are companies out there that are making gobs of money, they did it because you know probably there are no original thoughts, right, but had I done it and done it differently, then you know I'd be in there, but I failed to step forward and actually take my place in line and say I wanted to do it, and so I, I try to give them at least the benefit of some of my, my misses, and the fact that my lack of swing was going to guarantee that I sat on the bench, right, that I just never got any game time, and then never got to play, and and just try to put them in the shoes of, so five years from now, what would happen if you don't do anything different?

What will, what will, what will the outcome be if somebody else gets to that, you know, start finish line before you do, and get them to envision, you know, why them not taking action or them not leaning into their power and finding that confidence will actually end up being something that will create regret and potentially a swing and a miss that you know they're going to, you know, that they're not going to be happy with five years from now. So I do that. I think the other thing is, no, just sucks.

No, it's hard. No is difficult, but no is part of life, right? I mean, there are many, many things. If you think back to when you were a kid, and you're like, you go and ask your mom for a cookie, and she says no, and you go back and you ask your dad, and he's like, what'd your mom say?

Well, yeah, well, let me, let me jump. My pitch a little bit to prevent people from prevent him from knowing I already got a no, it's find an alternate route, find a different way to get to your yes release, to maybe into your thing that you said maybe that 19th no is is hard to take, but it gets me to my 20th, well, maybe, or yeah, okay, that one's my yes. No is just part of what what we're accustomed to, and I think, honestly, now, because of the world we live in, no's come a lot more fast and they're not a lot more regular, because you know, we as society throw up these barriers to think, hey, we don't know, we don't, you know, we don't need what you have, and we don't want to even talk further about it.

At least they give you the respect of saying no quickly, and you can move on to the next one. But it's difficult. So, let me turn that back on you. What is your approach to those two things, and how do you go about it?

Unknown: So, I mean, this is a big part of what I'm building towards next, I think everyone goes through these like life stages. For me, the empty nest phase is glorious. Highly recommend five tacos, like it is the best thing ever. So, please don't cry when your little one leaves the net, it is the best thing ever, but I'm thinking about what that means for me, and we started the podcast on this, but my journey with hackathons has been illuminatory, and I think it's one of those things where it's like build what you yourself need, and so, like, I'm a, like, a very, very ambitious, like, I've got, I could have led 12 completely different, full, like, wildly, like, unlike the other lives, like, and I'm always trying to optimize, that's like the MBA in me, we're like, literally, we have a degree in optimization, like what is the best way to get to the sales, what is the best way to cut the cost, what is, you know, that's sort of what an MBA gives you, is that line of thinking, but you know, because of my background in design thinking, and I worked at IDEO, I think that has saved me, because it actually isn't about the yes or the no, like I don't even think about it in terms of the yes or the no, it's let's let's build something, let's just like put it out there, get feedback, and it's just for me it's about a continuous feedback loop to make something better, and that's not a yes or no, that is like you're having conversations about what works, you've got a vision in your mind about what you can give to the world or a product that you're building, and you like put it out in the world for feedback, and it's not a yes or no, it's like, How do I keep making this better?

Along the way, people are going to like give it a thumbs up and purchase it, or hire you, or put you on a board, or like click on your sub stack, but you just, you're running experiments all the time. Stephen Harper: Yeah, Unknown: so in my mind it's for me my biggest hold back, and the same is true for a lot of my clients, is like this like debilitating perfectionism. It's like I, as a kid, I would come, you know, immigrant kid, I would come home with a, with a 98 out of 100 and my dad would be like, where did the other two points go?

That was sort of the way that I grew up, yeah, you know, since I'm Ukrainian, it wasn't like, like a tiger dad, but he was a borscht dad, yeah, like that was my flavor of it, and so that's how I grew up, and it really took me a long time, and I think working at IDEO and thinking about design thinking really allowed me to surmount that really debilitating weakness of, like, the perfectionism served me really well, and it got me into a great college, got me into a great first job out of college, and then it started not being so great because I wouldn't put stuff out in the world or I wouldn't launch something because I'm like oh it's not perfect yet or I need to wait because this other thing is going to come along or I need all of these things all of the all of the things that we know perfectionism keeps you from doing and so for me it actually isn't about the yes or no, or constantly building something that the world needs, and you need its feedback on, and that's it.

And then it becomes like this playful thing where you know, like you go to the beach and you start building a sand castle, you're not sure what it's going to look like, you keep doing it. Some people think it's cool, they come and join you, some idiot comes and kicks it over, you're like, okay, so I guess we'll like build it. It is like about the metaphor of like what my next phase is going to be. It's more of like a sand castle approach, where it's like I know I'm going to build something very cool, I know I'm in a space that I enjoy being in and.

And I know the people that are that are going to be in this community with me are going to be my tribe and I think like the next phase for me and what I love about the hackathon and what I think that means for what I do next is building in community is so powerful and all of the most of the work that I've done so far is either like group coaching or one on one or facilitation, I think my next phase is going to be these cohort experiences, and they're going to be virtual and in person, but there is so much power in building together and I think it allows you to get over, like, the fear factor and the insecurities, and all of the things, if you're able to do it in community, so that's Stephen Harper: love, Unknown: that's what I'm, Stephen Harper: I think that's amazing, and a, I would love to know more about the cohort, and as you do those, if you could share it, we'd love to promote it through the Ripple community, because I think what your approach is a lot of people would benefit from, including me.

So, I'm, you know, I'd love Unknown: you, might be patient zero, Steve. Well, Stephen Harper: yeah, I'm in, I'm in, I'm the whole time you're speaking, I'm like, God, I love her so much. Why do I not talk to her daily? I'm like, I'm getting a realtor, I'm moving out there.

I gotta become your neighbor. So, um, so Unknown: we've got, we've got some spare bedrooms, you can start here, and Stephen Harper: let's do it. Like, well, that you also made me think of something, which is something that I'm kind of a little bit sad that I kind of went away from this when it came to know, and you just hit it needs, right? You know, like, you know, I'm, I'm iterating, I'm adjusting, I'm on the fly, and you know, there's that adage, it's not really a no, it's just a no, right now, it's, you know, it could be a maybe, or could be a yes in the future, right?

As you continue to work on and iterate, I don't know how you know, but I think this applies to just about anybody, or how people will take it, but you know, at the end of the day, I looked at Noah's needs only. It was an invitation for somebody to tell you why they wouldn't do business with you, but then if you could get very specific in order for you to actually change that answer, what would it need? You know, it only needs this, right? You're kind of reversing it, but it needs only this in order for me to get to a yes, or maybe I'd try it, and I'm thinking about my software company for a little bit, like I even did this this morning with a prospect that basically has just been like, lead me on, lead me on, and I asked the guy, I'm like, you know, at the end of the day, you know, you, you brought in your executive team to look at what we're doing, and they brought you onto the team to be able to manage and do this thing that you're doing for the project, and what does this need in order for you to get to that?

Yes, and I was thinking about, you know, as you were talking about that needs only this in order for us to do business together, and he gave me the one thing that I think if I could tell my CEO that you guys will do this, or can you know, make this one adjustment, or we could deliver this one dashboard. I think it's a no-brainer, right. And so, when I think about no, and thank you for just the revelation, like the thing that I used to tell when I did a bunch of sales training is, you know, don't take no as the negative, but turn that no into a future invitation for you to continue to engage and potentially have collaboration or a conversation, even if it doesn't net you any revenue, you'll learn a shit ton about your customer or your prospective customer just by someone saying, look, oh, you're not going to cry over spilt milk and beat me up because I'm telling you no, I'm not going to pay you money for what you're doing now, but you'd still want to invite me in to collaborate, or to dance in this, in this arena with you.

There's so much power in that, and so you know, thank you for that revelation to just like remind me that, you know, yeah, nose knows if you take it only for the negative piece of it, suck, but if you're willing to put yourself out there a little bit. Some of my best connections now that I think about this have come from people that didn't agree to do business with me initially. They found out who I was, what that, what I'm about, what I'm passionate, you know, and why I was someone worth knowing that eventually came back and ended up doing business with me just by default, because by that time you built enough credibility and trust that they were curious enough to want to, you know, sign on for, you know, one point a right, or you know, the next iteration of your idea.

Unknown: Steve, can I, can I layer an additional thing on top, because I love that we're like, we're riffing on each other so beautifully. So there's another, I actually love the no, because I don't even look at it as a no, and I love that we keep on talking about this, because I think this is the biggest thing that holds people back from putting themselves out there and networking. For me, it's data, and that's like what the iterative prototype process is. You're just getting data, Stephen Harper: so if the data Unknown: is your product sucks, that is great data, and it's the same thing, like I view like whatever you're like on the lookout for, whether it's like looking for a job or getting funding or getting a sale, it's very much like dating, like it is always the best analogy, and if you keep getting a ton of no's, you got to take a good look at yourself, like what's going on, and it's great data, like you could, you could sit there in a corner and take it personally and weep, and but that's not the point, the point is like if you're actually that the best thing to do is like neutralize it and look at the data and then just keep iterating, so I just, I, I love the back and forth, and I think that there's the fact that we like it's understandable that we put like this emotionality to it, but if you can actually like take that off the table, and just be like, it's just data.

Stephen Harper: Yeah, Unknown: it's a.. that is such a game changer. Stephen Harper: Oh, it is. And if you apply that just data to the gamification piece, then you embrace the fact that you're going to have people that won't just beat a path to your door for every great idea you have out there.

You're going to have to take some, you know, some lumps along the way, but if you don't look at it as, let me shut the door, and I don't care what they think, but actually open that a little bit and say, even though you don't want to do it today, or you don't want to, you know, sign up, could I come back to you just for some iterative feedback? I mean, you obviously saw enough in this to have a meeting, or to let me do my demo, or whatever, but could I come back, because you're someone that even in our brief interactions I've really come to respect and admire, and I think that a, I would love to just continue to stay in your, in your orbit a little bit, if you're open to it, but you may actually help, you know, make this thing better, even if you go with a competitor, or even if you, you know, never go with this product or service.

How many people in a business or sales development role would ever actually do that? Right. No, Unknown: think about what you just said. Like, if the way for anyone who's listening to this that's not in sales, if they hear the way that you've approached this, like I hope that it's like the emoji of like the brain exploding, like that's what I like, it's like most of the time, it's like, are you gonna buy or not, that's how most people think about sales, Stephen Harper: the definitive boom, yeah, Unknown: yeah, this black and white thinking, and I think, and some people might have a like a bit of a snarky reaction to that, which might be like, oh, you're just trying to like, like, just stay in their orbit to sell that to them again, but if your genuine thing is I want to make this product just absolutely kick ass, and you're someone that's actually giving me real feedback, it is so valuable.

Thank you for trying to make this better. I don't even want to sell it to you. In fact, don't buy my product, I just want you to give me feedback, like there are ways that you can kind of like it's just a very unusual approach, and here's the thing, this is like the best part of it. It really comes from this authentic core from you, Stephen, of like I really want to make this a better product.

Stephen Harper: Yep, Unknown: that is the secret, honestly. That's that's that's the core of what's underneath what both of us are talking about, is like, how do you, how do you have authentic relationships. Period. Stephen Harper: I'm it gives me chills.

I mean, you and I are aligned in so many different ways, but we approach things maybe a little bit different, but at the end of the day, the commitment to what we want to drive and what we want to do, I think, is fantastic. When I think about you doing that, the hackathons and putting yourself in a space that you weren't necessarily comfortable with, because you wanted to be uncomfortable, because there were things that you wanted to learn, and one of the best ways to learn it is to be around people who are probably unaware that they're teaching at the same time as they're offering or promoting, or, sorry, you know, developing, but what a great master class on how to get that experience.

If you are willing to put yourself out there, imagine the outcome and the potential value you bring to your life, not only are you stimulating something new to get excited about, and that's good. I mean, that's just that's a mood changer. It's a, you know, it's a, it's hits you right in your core, but also kind of pushes you, whether you're extroverted or introverted, to look at things and do things a little bit different to challenge yourself to do something outside the norm, and what's the worst that could happen, right?

You know, either somebody's like, "I don't know why you keep showing up with these things, you're not a developer. Like, yeah, well, did you know you wanted to be a developer before you became a developer? I mean, you know what? If you were going to teach me five things that were most important that you wish.

You had learned before becoming a developer that you wish somebody had taught you, and would you be willing to share those things? Not saying you have to teach me, not saying you have to spend time to give me the master class on it, but imagine taking that conversation from "you don't belong" to "oh hell, you definitely belong, you're exactly the kind of person I would love to talk to" or "I'd love to teach" or impart a little wisdom, or share my story, or my, you know, my, my background, and my history, because nobody else asks me about these things.

I just think there's so much value there. It just, this is just, it's just mind blowing in terms of how cool this conversation turned out to be for my audience. Say, you know, Sasha and I are like, what are we going to talk about today? I'm like, I know we will talk about something, and you know, I had a game plan, but we went the other direction, and I love that, because I think when you meet what I call dance partners or co-collaborators, and I think that you guys could probably see if Sasha and I were to like decide we were going to do a startup together, the energy level would just be off the charts, right, because we could just figure these things out, because we don't need to be the expert, we'll, we'll get the expertise or associate ourselves with the people who have that, that can help us accelerate our, our progress, but I think that having this type of conversation, having this type of interaction with another human being, that's the whole premise of the Ripple, right.

It's the whole.. there is just.. there's gold in those hills if you're willing to dig for it. And that's where I think a lot of people fall short, is they're just not willing to go beyond the norms and try things that are different, or get outside their lane and their comfort level and do things like you're doing.

I mean, you are, my friend, a big inspiration to me, and how you approach life, how you're approaching your work, and why you're a freaking kick-ass coach. I mean, I am in awe. I am just absolutely in awe. Unknown: Well, I appreciate you, Steve.

I, I was complimenting you from, from, from head to toe up front, but I think one of, for those that don't already know, this, like, you are the personification of a portfolio life, like, we, I could, they're like 12 concepts I'd love to talk about right now, but I'm gonna let's close on this, this idea of, like, you, you run your own company, you've got the podcast, you have this member community, you're like very actively involved in a lot of communities that are personally important for you, you've got like the athleticism piece, like that's a big identity part for you as well, and I think that there is a agility in living life like all of it in the in the moment versus like oh I need to wait till this period of life to do this, but you're like, no, I can just like build a whole portfolio now.

I'm just going to do it my way, if that's okay. It is beautiful to witness, and it is inspirational to me, and I, and I know that a big part of your community is in your community because of that. So, I'm just giving it a conceptual framework, but you are the personification of a portfolio life well lived. Stephen Harper: Well, a, I've never heard it like phrased that way, but thank you for being like one of the only people on the planet that actually recognizes me.

That's awesome. I just need a little mini Sasha, like on my shoulder. If we're gonna come up with a product, I think it should be many, Sasha. Unknown: There we go.

We might need to prototype that. Stephen Harper: That would be badass, like just that would be awesome. But thank you for that. I mean that acknowledgement, you know, of of you reframing what I do and how I do it in that way really actually gives me a whole new perspective, and I'm grateful for that.

So, thank you. So, Sasha, we're gonna have to do a follow-up, because I think we're there's like a bunch of stuff that I really want to talk to you about that we didn't get to today, but I want Unknown: to launch our own podcast to you, is what Stephen Harper: we should, when I'm living in your next room, that'd be part, Unknown: it'll be easy, Stephen Harper: but I want to be respectful of your time. Do you have just a few more minutes that we could, or you need to jump? Unknown: No, no, we're good.

Stephen Harper: So I always like to wrap these up, because I think people are going to be in love with you, without question. There's no doubt, but we always ask these Ripple connection questions, are kind of fun to ask, fun to answer, to just give a little bit more insight, you coming from the Ukraine, and when did you move from the Ukraine to the United States? Unknown: So, I moved from Ukraine when I was four. Stephen Harper: Okay, so what is growing up in a Ukrainian family in the United States?

What is something that you're super proud of that you learned from that upbringing? Unknown: Gosh, what a great question. I don't know if it's anything specific to, for, to Ukrainian families or Slavic families, but I think growing up as, as an immigrant. Kid is like first and foremost my like primary identity, so I'm a woman, but I'm an immigrant woman, like I went to these great schools, but but I'm an immigrant kid that went to these great schools, and so I think that, and I think coming at that age, not that I had any influence over it, but because I came at such a young age, it just gave me this, like, I think I'm forever that kid that was like, "Oh, this is super cool, like I get to learn the new language, versus, like, I think for other members in my family it was brutally hard, like, there, I mean, imagine learning.

I think my dad, if I'm getting my math right, my dad was 40 when he came. Imagine learning English at 40. My sister was 11, like the worst time to move in general. But imagine moving, and you don't know the language, and you're, you know, 11 years old.

Stephen Harper: Oh, yeah, Unknown: yeah. And so, and we were, I mean, my parents were very highly educated, but had to work these minimum wage jobs to get by in the beginning, and so I think what it gave me, just like many other immigrant kids, is this really amazing resourcefulness, and for me, I think my particular flavor, I don't think every immigrant kid has this varietal of it, but for me, like learning new things is fun, like I remember when I lived in Brazil for two and a half years, three years, right after it was part of my first job after when I was a consultant, and I just like dove into learning Portuguese, and the all of the other consultants, they were like, oh, we're going to practice English, like, and I had to like the way that I, they didn't have Duolingo at the time, so I was like, look, I'll cut you a deal, I will actively correct your English, but you have to actively correct my Portuguese.

Stephen Harper: Oh, that's awesome. Unknown: And Portuguese say phashado, which means closed, done deal. And so it was great, because what they would do, and it was also, it was always like give, give, give, and then make the ask, because they would say something in English, and I would always correct them, and if you're like, for anyone that's learned another language, people love that, because no one does that. People think that, like, the person that could potentially give feedback holds back from it, because they think they're embarrassing the person.

Stephen Harper: Yeah, Unknown: but I taught my parents English, and I know, like, the way that you improve is by continuous feedback from a place of love, like if you don't care about somebody, you're not going to bother giving them feedback, Stephen Harper: right? Unknown: Yeah, you don't do it in an embarrassing way, you don't do it in a big public venue, but if you're having one on one or small group conversation, you're like, oh no, it's it's this, like in Spanish and Portuguese, a lot of the prepositions, like you can, like in Spanish or Portuguese, it's like I dream on something, versus in English you'd say I dream of something, and you would never like there are all these like little things that I would, I would gently be like, oh, it's this, and they're like, thank you, Sashi, so and then it made my like my learning rate with Portuguese was so fast, because I was like four year old Sasha, like I would like, I wouldn't care that I would make mistakes, I like cut loving deals with the people around me, being like I really want you to correct it, like please, please, please, if I say something wrong, like I will like cherish Stephen Harper: it, yeah, Unknown: and so, like, learning something new, and like critical feedback for me was just feedback again, like dial it down, dialed in, like what you think is negative is actually a gift, like again, some there are different ways to do this, there are people who are like don't do it well, and they're kind of like the intent is to hurt people, but for the most part people shy away from giving feedback, and it kills me because feedback is such a gift, and I think the biggest blessing for me as an immigrant kid was the resourcefulness, the curiosity, the fearlessness, the like, invite feedback, like actively invite feedback, and I think, like, a lot of it is pure luck, like I don't think I would have been who I am if I was 11 years old, or if I was 30 years old when I immigrated.

Stephen Harper: Wow, that's cool. And what I, what I really loved, what you said is, and there is a difference. Seek out people who will provide you the feedback and ask them for that, not criticism, right? And almost explain the difference between it, right?

Because what you did was gamify that process to say, look, I want, I want you to do it, I'll do the same for you, but there's got to be a mutual. Will exchange, and that is what creates great connection, and there's you eliminate the awkwardness of me saying, hey, you just misspoke, or you said that in a way that probably isn't as clear as it needed to be, so let me give you that feedback, rather than, oh, you said that wrong, you know, like there's, there's some, there's a huge lesson in just what you shared right there, which actually brings me to a conversation, or a question on, you know, immigration right now is a really hot topic in this country.

Right, what would you like people who maybe have not had the pleasure of meeting someone like you, or had, you know, anybody that is immigrated to United States, what would you like them to know about the immigrant kids and the immigrant families in the gift and the gold that there is with them if they're willing to step into and embrace them wasn't exactly a ripple connection question I was going to ask, but, man, Unknown: yeah, I'm like, wow, we're going, we're going into into something very provocative, so I'm pausing because I think that there's no, there's no one answer, there's no like monolith of immigrants.

Sure, so I think I can't answer for there's no one answer. I will say there is what's the pause. What do I.. what do I want people to know about immigrants?

I actually, I think the pause is.. I don't know if that is the right question, so I'm going to actually push back on the question, because it's not like there's one way to look at immigrants. I think that the other question is like, how do you, what's a, what's a productive way to look at someone that comes from a very different background than you. Period.

You know, I, and I'll give it, I'll give an example that's very close to home, like my husband and I are both immigrant kids that come from very humble families, like we've, we've, you know, we've made our own path through like a lot of hard work and some, you know, some great decisions, but also a lot of luck, and we've sent our kids to some really great schools, and I remember my dad going to the private high school where we sent our oldest daughter, which is like, like very resourced, and we were having lunch together, and he was like, he's like, are they going to be able to have conversations with real people, like with like salt of the earth people, Stephen Harper: yeah, Unknown: and it was like he said that out of from a from a point of like we came from this very humble place, you know, we grew up with very humble people, like the high school that I went to was a very normal public high school in Long Island, and lots of like blue collar people that like were born, lived, and will die in that town, and the loveliest human beings you will ever meet, and he asked just a really great question, which is like, How do you create bridges with people that don't have your background, so I hope it's okay that I switched the question around, because I think the immigration question is kind of, it's a tricky one, because there are some great immigrants, there are some not so great immigrants, like I feel like that is, that is a tougher question to ask, but I think to answer, but I think that the question of what do you want, how do you want to be around someone who's very different from you, and I see this all the time in Silicon Valley, and in in tech, where like women get short, short changed in rooms, Stephen Harper: yeah, Unknown: I don't know what the number is now, but like the fact that like under 5% of founders are women is how, like, how is that happening?

Like, you will not meet, like, like that should not be the case. And this isn't a DEI thing. This is a literal, like, how, like, we get asked different questions, we get asked different questions, and so this is a challenge that I have for everyone, which is I think that there's an empathy piece, which is like when you're asking a question to somebody, be like, am I asking them this question because they are fill in the blank, whatever the group, the other group is for them, asking this question of this female founder, because she's a woman, like I went to an event last week where this incredible woman with this amazing idea that will reduce like the energy toll of AI, she was.

Ching and the VC was like, so when do you think you're going to start a family like that's going to influence how much money, like if I'm going to fund you? I was like, I thought we were beyond this at this point, but so I think, I think whenever from the perspective of the person that is in the position of power to be like, am I asking this question? Like, would I ask this question of a, like, if it were somebody else Stephen Harper: ever, right? Like, why would you ask that question?

Unknown: Yeah, and from the person that's receiving that question, because you can't control how other people are going to behave, but from the person that's receiving that question, be like, you know, I hear your question, but I have another question back, which is, would you be asking this of a male founder? Because my technology speaks for itself, like there's a way that you can kind of reframe it. So I just want to empower everyone to be both more empathic, but also raise the bar if somebody is asking questions that have this undercurrent of weight, you're actually diminishing what I bring to the table.

Like, I feel like it is within your right to again benevolently educate them. Stephen Harper: Yeah, I love that. I think one of the things that I, that I hear, sort of the underlying theme that you touched on earlier, though, is be curious, like look at the opportunity to learn from this immigrant that comes from some different countries, some different culture, had a different way of living, different way of being raised, maybe a different educational path, but how is it that life brought you two into this space at this time, right now, and if it, you can look at each other by roles, you can look at each other by, you know, all these things that denote status, or what have you, but the life offered you a gift to learn from this person, and I go back, and I guess the reason I asked that question is thinking all the way back to when you and I first sort of stood next to each other, and we were coping, you know, you know, drinking our drinks or our beers, or whatever, while you know we were at Bootstrap Austin, and being curious enough to talk to the other human doesn't matter where the hell they came from, how they got here, they're here now, and the opportunity for you to learn from them and them to learn from you, that could be the gift that you know was supposed to be given to both of you, if you just take the time to do it, so yeah, anyway, I didn't mean to get you on the "gotchy" question, that wasn't my, no, Unknown: no, that it wasn't.

It was, I know it wasn't intended, I know it wasn't intended as such, but I'm also very mindful about not like for questions that might have, like a monolithic Stephen Harper: or Unknown: not one Stephen Harper: size fits all kind of situation I Unknown: wanted, I wanted to reframe it, which I, because I think that that was, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think that's what was underneath the question. Yes, like, how do you interact with somebody who's very different from you?

And I think, like, my biggest ahas have almost always come from people with a wildly different background, almost. That's by definition, that's where you're going to have the biggest leap if you're, if you're open to approaching it with genuine curiosity about where that person is coming from. Stephen Harper: Absolutely, without question. I love that.

Um, what, what, what we could do a whole podcast on that Unknown: one. Stephen Harper: We just start making on our list, anyway. All right. Well, we'll go to a lighter question.

Well, maybe we'll see what is, because you are a female entrepreneur, and there is such continue, which pisses me off, that there's such disparity in terms of whether it's funding or just, you know, women that are in leadership roles within the Inc 500 or excuse me, the Fortune 500 What's the advice you give to, I mean, you have, you know, obviously young girls that'll eventually be that Unknown: young, they're they're they're young adults in the world, Stephen Harper: young adults, that's right.

Yeah, I mean, they're they're just starting their careers, Unknown: right? Stephen Harper: What advice would you give to them and to anyone else that's at that phase, about like, yes, the world has presented a bunch of obstacles, so what? Here's what you should do with it. What advice would you give them as they begin to enter into these arenas, where maybe you know the numbers are stacked against them, or there's, you know, circumstances that maybe aren't exactly fair, but what, what advice would you give to the young entrepreneur starting their own business, or someone that's moving into a career path where they're, you know, part of a larger corporate organization?

Unknown: So, you, you, you mentioned the, like, bringing people into the, like, the Coliseum. My advice is to befriend the lion, like, so I think, like, here's, here's the reality, like, you, whenever possible, like, be the one that creates, like, there's no meritocracy, I just don't believe in meritocracy, like, I believe in it, I just don't. Think it's possible, and I think that they're like, you need to, you need to have, you need to be really good, but you need to have like great alliances, and there's like a to the extent that you can create like an amazingly unfair advantage, you do that, you find the great communities, you go to the great schools, you like, you get into the into the groups where people will be your allies, like I remember, like right when I got to Silicon Valley, there was a panel that I went to where there was a woman, I mean, imagine, so this was 20 years ago.

There was a woman that was, that was working at, I want to say, Sun Microsystems, like, how's that for a blast? And, and she was saying that she was the only woman at, like, her executive level, like, she wasn't at the upper echelon, she was, like, at maybe the VP or SVP level that made money on the IPO because she had conversations with guys about like what's the best way to like structure the her contract and what to ask for and they would be like this number do you want this number of shares or would you rather have that as as like money in the bank, Stephen Harper: yeah.

Unknown: And because she had those conversations, she was able to kind of make the decisions that would then allow her to get the upside. I'm like, yeah, that's how you do it. And so this isn't like when I say like get an unfair advantage, people are like, ooh, that sounds very like Machiavellian, like that sounds very like The Art of War. Yeah, but I think that there's like conversations are the way in, always.

Yeah, she bothered to have conversations with people that that came in from a different perspective, and I think my advice is, don't only be in your head if there's something you're not sure about, like you'll never, you'll never fully know, but you've like, ask three people, ask 10 people, better yet, ask 20 people, Stephen Harper: yeah, Unknown: and you'll get at a better answer for you, I think that women don't have enough conversations with people that really, really know.

I think we tend to like be in our, our, our comfort circle, which is amazing and fantastic for certain things, but if you're, if you want to be a titan of industry, if you want to have a successful startup, if you want to be an incredible thought leader, you have to have a lot of conversations, and that, in effect, will allow you to have amazingly unfair, like an unfair advantage, which is, I mean, that's like the underpinning of, like, if you're looking at the bell curve of success, that's what allows you to be on that, like, that that better tail of the curve.

Stephen Harper: I love that. That's such fantastic advice. What is the book that you recommend the most to entrepreneurs, business owners, your coaching clients. Unknown: Wow, there are so many.

I'm like such a nerd about that stuff. Stephen Harper: Give me your top three. How about that? Unknown: So, so I mentioned the one thing I think the one thing is incredibly powerful if you actually really understand that book, and use the tools that they give.

You will have a wildly differently better life. Stephen Harper: Agreed. Yeah, Unknown: so I love the one thing. So I will share the other.

Is it okay if I don't just do books? I do podcast, and so I'm a huge fan for anyone that's really curious about AI. I really love the AI Daily Brief. Stephen Harper: Oh yeah, Unknown: it's 2030 minutes every day.

It's just brilliant, like I just.. I have been able to like really ramp up my learning curve listening to that, and I sometimes he gets technical, but it's always, it's always within reach. So I, for those that are really like, I need to understand this AI thing, the AI daily brief is great. And then the third is really more of an approach than a, than a, then a like a concrete recommendation, because again I don't want to, I think that that's that's sort of the better way to do it, is like I would make sure that there's something new that you want to learn and get like get three resources on it that you dive into, like have it be one.

Podcast one sub stack, and then subscribe to like one Luma calendar of events related to that one thing, and get on it, like I think. So, one is like an, like a literal book, the other one is for those that want to understand AI, and the third is an approach. Stephen Harper: I love that. Oh, that, what a perfect answer.

I love that so much. Okay, last two questions, and I'll let you go. When you hear the term, the ripple effect, what does that bring to mind for you? What does that conjure Unknown: up?

It conjures up a couple of things. I think what I, what I love about the concept, and I think it's so perfect for the work that you do, is we really have a duality in us as human beings. On one hand, we are absolute nothingness relative to the history of the universe. So, so genuinely, you could say nothing that we do effectively matters.

Nothing really matters. So, like, make the most of it, so, so, in my mind, that's sort of like the, the optimistic nihilism, which is stop making such a big deal out of everything, like, stop sweating the small stuff, and it's all small stuff, and so I think the ripple effect is really get really clear on what kind of difference you want to make, and then jump in. Stephen Harper: That's good. Unknown: That's it.

Stephen Harper: I love that. Oh, money right there. That's all right. What positive ripple can I be looking to create for you?

Unknown: Just, I mean, this conversation already, but yeah, I'm really excited about the things that I'm planning on launching over the summer, and would love for you to be a partner in that. So, we'll, Stephen Harper: the ripple, Unknown: ripple is, let's keep, let's keep, let's keep chatting, because I feel like we, we inspire one another, and we come at it from different backgrounds and approaches, and it's just been great. Stephen Harper: I, that's an easy ask. I'm happy to do that any way I can.

Sasha, what's the.. yeah, I lied. There's one last question, but this is mainly just because I know people will be absolutely chomping at the bit to learn. How do people learn about you, your work, get engaged in the, in what you're doing?

Unknown: I mean, please connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm a LinkedIn zealot, like there are things that LinkedIn is doing that, that cause me dismay, but, but in the end, it is the platform. So, please connect with me on LinkedIn. My website will have all the latest and greatest about what I'm doing, that's Catapult Circles, is my company, so Catapult circles.

com and I'm going to be launching a Substack, so that'll probably be on, that'll be both on LinkedIn and my, my website, so Stephen Harper: I love that, we'll put that in the show notes, so everybody's got links to all of that, those resources, Sasha, thank you so much for the time. We went longer than we expected, but I am so grateful for the depth of our conversation and what we covered, and you are just a, you're, you're amazing in every respect, and I'm so grateful that we had this opportunity to sit down, have the conversation, but more importantly, all that I think it's going to stimulate in terms, I mean, now I'm moving in, so I mean Unknown: all the Stephen Harper: different places that we took this conversation, but no, at the end of the day, I'm just super grateful that after all these years, and even the, you know, the geographic difference between where we are, you know, on not only physically, but you know, the fact that we, you know, we've continued to stay in contact, and I'm a little reticent, in fact, that we shouldn't, we should have played a bigger part in each other's entrepreneurial journeys over the course of this last 20 years, but Unknown: only too late if we don't start now, so we're good, Stephen Harper: we are going to continue to focus on that, but I'm just, I just want to say, thank you.

You are an inspiration to me. You always have been, and I can't wait till we have the next conversation. Unknown: Same, Steve, I'm, I'm so excited that that you reached out. I'm so grateful for this chance to talk with you and your community, and this is the beginning of both of our next chapters, so let's, let's like join arms and continue for it.

Stephen Harper: Let's do it. I can't. I am so grateful. Thank you, guys.