282. Why Good Employees Leave and What Actually Makes Them Stay

Speaker A: Welcome to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff and I've spent my entire professional career in hr. Each week we'll explore the delicate balance between people and business, with the aim to reconnect the two and create meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests from various industries about our mission to bring the human back to human resources. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources podcast. This is my very first recording since being on maternity leave and I'm sure my listeners who have been here, uh, for a number of years, ah, are like, oh yeah, you were on a maternity leave. You didn't even tell us you were pregnant. That is my style. Um, I keep it like top secret information and then surprise, there's a, there's a new turn off baby. Um, yeah. So I welcomed number three and I now have three under three. And that means that I'm running on fumes and caffeine, but that makes for a great podcast recording, I think. Um, maybe. We'll see, we'll see how this goes. If I can remember how to string words together. Anyway, this week I have Dr. Carrie Graham with me. Um, and she is. She and I are going to talk about a lot of things, but a lot of really interesting, important information related to why people end up leaving certain jobs for other jobs. And it's certainly a topic that I think is near and dear to many of our hearts. So without further ado, let me introduce you to Dr. Carrie Graham. And as a training strategist specializing in scalable talent development, Dr. Carrie Graham guides small and mid sized organizations to achieve measurable results through strategic employee training programs. Her approach bridges the gap between corporate level training excellence and small business practicality. Delivering validated methods that align training initiatives with organizational vision while driving tangible business outcomes. Through Dr. Graham's work with diverse organizations and she's developed proven frameworks that transform how businesses approach talent development. Her methodology focuses on understanding individual team dynamics, optimizing information delivery, and building employee confidence. Creating training programs that don't require complex HR systems, but deliver corporate caliber results. Dr. Cary Graham, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me. At one point I was listening, I'm like, ooh, who's that person?

Speaker A: Yes, it is me.

Speaker B: It is me. But wow. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Tracy. And congratulations to you and number three under three. Um, but I'm excited for our conversation today.

Speaker A: Me too, me too. And I always say to guests on my show that it's, you know, it's really important, I think, to hear about all of our achievements. So I am a mirror holding up the mirror, at least to you. So kudos to you on all of your um, achievement and success. And so maybe let's start kind of at the top, which I kind of dangled this carrot in front of everyone at the beginning of this recording where, you know, we're going to really try and understand why people leave X employment for Y employment. And you know, certainly you and I have had our own experiences moving to new roles and everyone does. And I, I think of my dad often in moments like this because he's always like, I remember it was my first job out of college and I was like, I don't know that I want to be here anymore, but I'm like stressed about leaving and like, do I want to leave? And he was like, your first job is rarely your last job. You know, and when I think about that it's like, it's true, not everyone is going to work at Johnson and Johnson for 40 years anymore. It's just not really the way of the world. So you have done extensive research on this topic, um, and I'd love to kind of keep this super open and vague so that you can help us to understand why this topic has been so important to you and why ultimately why people do leave one job for another.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's such a great question. One of the. My early beginnings were in a high stress work environment and it was high stress because of the industry and the nature of the um, nature of the role that I was in. And so I had an opportunity to see how people function under stress, um, and really challenging stressors. And some were able to persist and some were not. And so they left. But of uh, those that were able to persist, there was a common sense of they had the tools or the organization was providing them a sense of support that allowed them to persist. And then, you know, the persistence went on until it could no longer go on. But that was an early introduction for me in terms of what is happening for employees. What is the employee experience? And over the decades I've come to uh, to see and learn more about people's experiences and why they leave and, and more importantly, what support do they need to help them stay and thrive. And that's the part of the conversation that uh, being had. It's the uh, how do we get people, how do we recruit and retain? Period. But the conversation isn't around now that we have them here, what can we do to support them in a way that matters to the employee, not simply the employer?

Speaker A: I like that you flipped the script a little bit. It's kind of why it's so important to focus on retention versus attrition. Absolutely. Uh, because it's sort of like focusing on the positive versus the negative.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It's like, oh, rather than thinking, why does everyone keep leaving? We can think about what can we do to support people to your point, um, to enable them to feel better, to have more support and ultimately to stay. Um, I think it's an important distinction actually to flip the script a bit because then ultimately you're focused on solving the problem and not just kind of harping on the problem.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. And oftentimes this conversation goes to when, when you think about small and medium sized businesses, oh, we can't offer this level of salary. And so people are leaving because of the salary. That is a reality. Right. Like, let's not ignore the reality. But in some instances there are employees that will stay at the same salary that you've provided them, but if you're able to provide them with some other areas of development that is meaningful to them, they see the equal value in that. Um, are they getting the mentorship that they need within your organization? Um, you know, at a lower salary? And for some individuals, that is the direction to go. And they're so, um. There's so much value. There's so much value in that. And if and when that individual leaves, it's not a lost investment, but rather it is your free recruiting tool. Right. So now you have people who have been with you, they've done good work for you, but they leave and they have only good things to say about your organization. And so it lightens your lift when it comes to recruiting.

Speaker A: Yes, that's so true. It's that referral process, effectively, that happens when you set, as I like to put it, send people back out into the world better than you found them. Right. Like that's kind of the, the, um, nucleus to all of this is like, how do we, businesses, employers treat people? How do people treat people? And it's very easy, I think, to get lost, lost in the sauce, but lost in the, um, in the, uh, you know, kind of absolving ourselves and just saying, oh, you know, the business has decided this or this is just the way the company is. When really, in fact, people are making decisions, people are influencing the ways in which a company runs. People are really at the hands and at the Helm of whether a company is considered toxic or not.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Uh, right. And, and we can't absolve our ourselves of that accountability. Um, and I think, you know, in the age of AI and technology and all these fabulous things and buzzwords, it is very easy for people to say, well, you know, this is just the way it is. Or that wasn't my decision. And we all, whether we like it or not, influence the perception and the feelings that people have in our organizations.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, I, it's one of the reasons I've been looking forward to our conversation today, you know, in terms of bringing the human back to not only human resources, but to an organization. You're right. It is the people that perform the production, that perform the operations. And so you cannot, you cannot get away from the value of a singular employee and then the collective of employees. And there are, there is an expectation that people are trained to do their job. Right. And so you think, you know, let's talk about the thing that the elephant that's always there, you know, good people leave, man, leave bad managers. Right. So let's talk about that. Oftentimes people are placed in management positions without being trained how to function in that role. They are placed in those positions because they've been here the longest or everyone else has left and so here we go. Or they simply asked. But that doesn't mean that they are equipped to do the job of leading other human beings, managing and supervising other human beings, as well as developing and mentoring other human beings. And so you can't it, like you said, it's easy to absolve ourselves, um, as leaders, that they're adults, they should be able to figure this out. Out. But the truth of the matter is if you have committed to them by hiring them, you also have a responsibility to developing them as well.

Speaker A: Mhm. A thousand percent. It makes me think of something that I've tried to incorporate in my various experiences, which is assume that people have not been shown the right way to do something. And you know, with my background, I've come up through HR as an HR business partner primarily. And that's kind of like the track I've always been on. And you know, regardless of level of seniority, that's effectively the work that I do. And part of a major part of being a business partner, other than being a partner to the business, whatever that might mean to someone, whether it's to a person, business decisions. Right. Um, is really helping people to, in my opinion at least helping people to become stronger, more capable Leaders and contributors to a business. And I think sometimes there are folks who are in similar HR positions maybe who are just solving the problem, which there's a time and place for that. Um, but when we take this approach of assuming, not only assuming positive intent, that's certainly a big part of it, but also assuming that people may not have ever had experience with the right way to do that particular thing, then you, you end up going into this, ah, way of working where you're teaching and coaching rather than, you know, uh, holding someone accountable or reprimanding or whatever might be negative in that, in that experience.

Speaker B: Right, right. You said something that I really want to share. This example just came to mind that I want to share because I think it will add perspective. Um, excuse me. I had a client bring me in because they were undergoing a merger. Two corporate, um, mergers, an acquisition of merger. And the individual on the healthcare, on the medical side had to have convers. The expert on the medical side had to have conversations with the sales and business team. Um, but was uh, struggling through those conversations as it relates to medical advocacy. And so that team lead brought me in to help support her team and this one individual who is highly credentialed medical professional. Um, I said, well, what is the struggle that you're having when you're in these meetings, um, of getting on the same page and advocating from a medical perspective? And she said, you know, I just really struggle. It's in oncology, so cancer level work. And she said, I struggle because they're focused on dollars and I'm focused on the people. I said, okay, like I understand, I can appreciate that. Why don't you tell me more? And what she said was that her mother was a cancer patient, a cancer patient who undergoing cancer treatment. Um, they had an experience where people who would be of support were not of support. And that's why she wanted to be a medical advocate in this initial organization. At this point, she actually is tearing up and really struggling to contain her emotions. And so we walked. I gave her time and space to navigate that. And then I asked her, I said, have you shared that experience with your team lead and with your team members? And she said, no, this is the first time I'm sharing it. And her leadership shared with me. I had no idea. And so I was pushing and pushing and getting frustrated, but I didn't know the story behind it.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And you know, fast forward with some presentation coaching on my, on my part.

Speaker A: The re.

Speaker B: The feedback that I got was that the next time she had this um, had to do a presentation with the sales business side. She did, she walked in with confidence, you know, was able to do, do really well and convince them of some things. And so I share that story because when we think about development, development starts with understanding who the individual is and what they bring to the table, what they bring to your organization. It's not simply what you believe they bring. It is all the things that they didn't tell you about, but that in fact influence their ability, their motivation and their capacity to excel at the job. And so it's again, it's going a step further and you, you really need to take the time to understand nuances of every individual.

Speaker A: Mhm. Well, this also kind of underlines a bit of that, um, that very commonly used phrase that you shared before that good people leave bad managers and AKA people work for people.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um, and ultimately I think the differentiating part of this between a, uh, bad leader and possibly a good leader is that a good leader is going to take the time to get to know their team, um, and see that people are complex creatures. And it's not like, you know, it's not like putting something into Claude or Chachi where you're not, you know, they don't have maybe, maybe I would say differently, but they don't have a life outside of whatever they're producing. Right. Um, whereas for us, you know, if I have to take one of my kids to the doctor, like that's the prevailing thing in my day. And for someone else like this uh, um, woman who you were sharing this story about, that's the prevailing, top priority thing in her day, week, month, year, that takes her a portion of her away, probably a significant portion of her away from work and you know, back in the COVID good days, which is already six years ago, which is crazy, crazy, crazy, you know, we started to get to this understanding. I think around, oh well, you can't just like check all of your baggage when at the door when you get to work because now work is your own home, um, and still continues to be for many of us. And I think there we've taken some steps back because it's like, oh well, you know, that was in the past, like Covid different time, blah, blah, blah. But it's like, no, actually people are people and we have to appreciate the nuance and the complexity and that people are going to have other things outside of a project and a deadline, um, that's taking up their mental capacity and their mental load. And um, when I think about, you know, some of the elements related to work environments. There's a decreased mental capacity and mental load when the work environment is stressful, toxic, unhealthy. Right. Like whatever that negative connotation might be. And I know that part of your dissertation was around uh, or I guess it was really doing the research into toxic work environments and their correlation between uh, or maybe the causation around severe health issues for the employees. So. Yes. What was that research like?

Speaker B: Yeah, it, you know it was some time, um, but very, very moving in the stories, you know, looking at women, particularly women in work environment, a very specific segment of um, work environment, high, high level, high functioning women. And in interviewing them what I found was that while they were able to succeed and arrive at where they are on their own terms, they were, there was this sort of unspoken promise that they would be supported in their development. Right. So it's, you've got um, terminal degree degreed individuals who are going into these environments where of course you know, we will support you in your further career development and ambitions. But what was happening was that was not the case. And so um, there was a gatekeeping for some, there was a level of gatekeeping where mentorship was happening but they were not, did not have access to it, um, and were quite frankly restricted from accessing those developmental resources. And for others, um, being the only woman, being the um, only individual of diverse identity, they were equally excluded. Um, and again the things that those women were bringing to the table became instead of being a part of their story to help them propel in their career, the environment was toxic and created using that as a barrier. Um, and so 60% of these women struggle. All of them changed, I don't want to say career paths but ended up leaving their, their employer at some point in time. But around 60, 70% of them experience mental and physical, um, health implications that, that were really, that were in fact avoidable but life changing. And, and, and it was because of the environment that it was being promoted in the recruitment process. But once they were there it was not happening. And that happens every day across all

Speaker A: industries, 1,000 thousand percent. I really can see how all of this would make sense and uh, it feels like very tangible that when there is a ah, work environment that's less than ideal, someone is spending 40 hours minimum, generally speaking in that environment. And like at some point you're either going to like mentally or physically break down somewhere and potentially both. And when I think about the research kind of that you've done being primarily on women, I'm also not surprised to that end, because many of us are mothers or spouses and, or caregivers in some capacity and have a whole other host of things to worry about. Like, I think about myself in this case.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's like, you know, if I were in a really stressful environment, like, could I take that? Would that, Would that be, uh, something that I could shoulder? And I think most people maybe could shoulder that type of environment for a certain amount of time. And it doesn't make you strong if you can shoulder it for longer. I think it just traumatizes you more.

Speaker B: I agree, I agree. But, you know, to this point, it raises, I think, you know, one of the things about COVID is it pulled the curtain that people had to take on multiple social roles that were unanticipated. So you have working adults who drop their children off to school and they go about their day. But in, during COVID okay, you have working adults that are also educators. Now they're attempting to navigate homeschool as well as nurturing young children or caregiving, whatever the case may be. Those social roles evolved very, very quickly, but nevertheless, they evolved. And organizations, those that are doing right by human beings, made adjustments for that. But the same holds true is that if you hire someone, um, at one stage of life and they stay with your organization, their social role, it evolves with them. And so you, you cannot continue to look at an individual, your employees, and say, well, I h. As an unmarried single person with no children, I hired you as a middle age career professional with children out of the house, and you know, you're 15 years in, you're a caregiver now, or you're now parent, it doesn't matter. But people's roles change. And sometimes, like in Covid or in other instances, it happens in a very short window of time. And if you want to retain your employees and have them be happy and productive and motivated individuals, you have got to acknowledge that their roles might change. And the only way you can do that is if you get to know them 1000%.

Speaker A: I really appreciate this conversation. I think with all of the layoffs that are happening, people looking for new jobs. I know the job market is tough. It hopefully it serves as a reminder for everyone to really put energy and attention into finding the right place when they are met with that, uh, either inevitable change that they're looking to make, or if it's thrust upon them through a layoff, which is obviously less than ideal. However, one door closes, another door opens. Easy for me to say over here,

Speaker B: but it does it? Does it does. And to that point I want to encourage, if there's a, a potential or prospective employee listening, or someone on the job marketing listening market listening to this conversation. I want to empower you and encourage you. It is your right during an interview to ask about the culture and to ask other employees about the culture.

Speaker A: Mhm, totally. I mean, you could arguably ask to meet with a peer, meet with someone on the team who's been there for a year or more or less than a year, um, someone who potentially could mentor you. I mean that not only does it display some interest in the job, but it's also a great window of opportunity to really get to know the inner workings of a company before experiencing it, um, if offered the job. And even better, knowing someone on the inside to begin with, arguably the best way to go. Um, but seriously, Dr. Cary Graham, thank you so much for joining the podcast and for sharing your wisdom. I mean, it's certainly, uh, no easy feat to do all this research and um, into all of these really complex topics that we have brought onto this show. But um, to me it's like you can never really talk about it too much because things are always evolving and it's really important. I think it's really important information. So, um, with that, where can everyone learn more about you, get to know you and your philosophies and maybe just connect?

Speaker B: Yeah, I would love to have people Visit my website, drcarygraham.com um, I have a book coming out, um, this summer, um, and so you can learn more about it there. And it's an extension of this conversation. So. Tracy, thank you. Welcome back. I want to first welcome you back to podcasting and to the world, but thank you so much for having me in this conversation.

Speaker A: Of course. Anytime. You're welcome back anytime.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the show so that you are the first to hear when an episode drops each week. And maybe leave a five star review and a comment about how much you loved this episode. Plus, if you have someone in mind who would really enjoy this episode, make sure you share it with them. Thank you so much for tuning in and I will see you next week.