Liane Davey | The Real Reason Burnout Keeps Getting Worse Despite Everything Leaders Are Doing

Speaker A: We live in an era where the demands on our attention, the weight of our emotions, and the drain on our energy have never been greater. And yet most leaders are still trying to push through, unaware that the very way they're managing or failing to manage these three forces is quietly undermining their performance and their teams. So today, we're going to explore a concept that reframes how we think about our mental capacity and. And why getting a handle on it is one of the most important things a leader can do right now. Not just for themselves, but for everyone they lead. I'm Tavi Nasir, and this is Leadership Biz Cafe. For over 15 years, this show has been a space where we distill the complex world of leadership into actionable insights. In addition to this show, I work directly with organizations through my leadership keynotes and workshops, helping teams navigate the very challenges we explore here in every episode. My guest today is Leanne Davey. Leanne is a New York Times bestselling author, a regular contributor to the Harvard Business Review, and the co founder of 3COSI, where she advises on business strategy and executive team effectiveness. Leanne holds a PhD in Organizational Psychology and has worked with executives at companies such as Amazon, Walmart, Aviva, TD bank, and Sony PlayStation. I've invited Leanne to join me on the show to talk about her new book, Manage the Madness and Free youe Team to do great work. Hi, Leanne. I don't get to say this often, but welcome back to the Leadership Biz Cafe.

Speaker B: Yay. I am so thrilled to be back. Tambira. I am so looking forward to this conversation.

Speaker A: So I was curious to check when you were last on the show, Leanne, and it turns out we last spoke of this podcast almost seven years ago. Isn't that wild?

Speaker B: It's wild in so many ways. But first of all, let me say congratulations at, uh, you know, still putting out this kind of value, doing this kind of work, helping leaders in this way seven years later. That's amazing.

Speaker A: Well, it's been a joy for me to do this show because I get to talk to people like yourself about a subject we both care deeply about and. And want to help others to succeed in the role. In fact, I imagine you're just like me, that if you go to a party, you'll end up talking shop. Because we just love this stuff.

Speaker B: Exactly. You know, we are very fortunate to do the work we do, but I

Speaker A: have to tell you, I'm so glad to have you back on the show so we could talk about your new book. Thought Load. Because I finished reading it a couple of days ago, and as I was reading it, I was finding it surreal because the ideas you were writing about, managing what we pay attention to, understanding the role emotions play in leading teams, and understanding how to manage and restore our, uh, energy levels, mirrored some of the ideas I've been teaching in an executive education program to leaders at a Spanish multinational organization. And I especially love how there are these different layers you explored from what I taught. So I'm eager to speak with you about those. But I got to tell you, Leanne, this has got to be the first time that has ever happened where, without knowing beforehand, I was going to be reading someone else's approach to the same ideas I was speaking about. It was very surreal reading this book. It made me almost feel like this was a Canadian thing.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's actually an interesting point because you and I both do lots of work in the US and elsewhere. And, uh, I would say because one of the things that we'll probably talk about is the productivity trap and what a big problem that is, and I do think Americans are particularly vulnerable to the productivity trap have, uh. And I think folks from outside of that intensity maybe can see it better. So maybe you're onto something. Maybe this is something that can be another one of Canada's gifts, uh, to the world is to maybe just shine a light on this in a different way.

Speaker A: Absolutely. So let's get into this, Leanne, because there's a number of things in your book that I'd love to talk to you about and have you share with our listeners. But before we could do that, we should take a step back here and start with the title of your book. So, to start things off here, Leanne, what, um, is thought load, and why is this something that today's leaders need to become familiar with as a concept?

Speaker B: Yeah. So let's just. The premise I started with is that work isn't working. That's where I started. And as I got into it and started talking to people and observing, everybody kept pointing to the workload as the issue, and none of the evidence seemed to support that. As I looked with my clients at how much was getting done, and more importantly, how much wasn't getting done, uh, and those sorts of things, I thought, it's not the workload that's killing us, it's the thought load. And thought load is the invisible tax on our performance that comes from a treacherous triad of three things. Rising cognitive demands, increasing emotional burdens, all carried with declining energy reserves. So, thought load, think of it as that invisible tax on your performance. Um, but it's really coming from three things that each, you know, amplify and exacerbate the others. All the things we're trying to pay attention to at once. All the triggers and emotional residue we're dealing with all day, and then all the burnout and overwhelm and exhaustion that we're trying to do it with.

Speaker A: I have to tell you, Leanne, uh, the scientist in me loves that you've created a mathematical formula that connects our attention, emotions, and energy to explain what. Why we are seeing more cases of anxiety and burnout in today's workplaces. And I especially like how it gives people permission and restores their own sense of autonomy to do something about this. Again, to call back to that executive education program I taught. As leaders, we can't think we're operating above and outside organization's workplace, but we're actually inside of it, shaping and nurturing the very conditions that will determine the whether we are able to bring out the best in those we lead or extinguish their internal drive to commit their discretionary effort to our shared purpose.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's been a theme in all of my books, is taking personal accountability for team effectiveness. So if we just point fingers at everyone else or wait for our boss to hire some external consultant, um, you know, we lose agency, and we likely are going to suffer, uh, in solitude for too long. So, yeah, I completely agree with you. That's been a theme of all of my work. Take ownership. Understand you have much more agency to make your own work experience and your team's work experience better than you think.

Speaker A: So with that in mind, and as you point out in your book, Leanne, um, to address these three elements of attention and emotion and energy as leaders, we first need to look at them in the context of ourselves and how we're showing up. So let's explore that. Because you point out that the best starting point to address thought load is, is by managing our attention. Because it's hard to deal with our emotions or manage our energy if we don't have control over where we focus our attention. And in your book, you share a number of strategies for how we can regain control over our attention or what we pay attention to. And there's two that I'd love for you to share. The first one is one you call chase outcomes, not outputs, which I think is tying to what you mentioned earlier about productivity. Yeah, because this revolves around so many discussions I've had with leaders at different levels of an organization and why I share in some of my keynotes, how leaders can strategize what they should be focusing on. And I find this helps us employ the other strategy you write about, which is make three priority lists, not one. So how do these measures help us to reduce our thought load? Leanne?

Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. Okay, so let's start with the first one. Chase outcomes, not outputs. Um, so there's three things you can pay attention to. You can pay attention to your activity. You know, what am I doing, am I busy, am I working long hours, how fast am I responding to emails? Um, at activity, you can pay attention to output. What am I producing, Have I shipped the code, have I sent the report? Or you can pay attention to outcomes. And outcomes are, how is the world different now? You know, are we selling a different mix of products, what is our profitability, what is our engagement score, etc. Etc. So if you pay attention to activity, what you become is busy. If you pay attention to outputs, you become productive. And usually when I say that, people are like, oh yeah, okay, that's what I want to be. I want to be productive. And that's when I say that's the productivity trap. Because it's easy to measure outputs, um, it's easy to give gold stars for how much you've produced. But I think that means we are producing a massive amount of, of work that is not moving the needle in any way on the outcomes we're trying to create in the world. So the first thing you need to do is shift away from focusing on activity and away from focusing on productivity or outputs and start thinking about, am I being effective? Is the way I'm using my attention, my energy, my time leading to the outcomes in the world that my role is responsible for. And it's amazing how when you get focused on that and, and you then plan in the other order, outcomes first, then outputs, then activities, there's so much work you can realize is stealing your time and energy, uh, with no return on investment. So that's the first step. Chase outcomes, not outputs.

Speaker A: So Leah, now that we have this understanding of what we should be putting our attention towards, how does the other strategy you write about make three priority lists, not one, help us to put these new insights into, to action?

Speaker B: Okay, so most of us have a to do list and it's this really long list that sits on our desk and taunts us like, like, haha, you've written me on the list three times and still not cross me off, you know, uh, to do lists are pretty evil in many ways for our thought load. Very emotionally triggering as well. But the interesting thing is when your thought load is high, uh, the way you pick what to do from your very long to do list is based on like which one is attached to the scariest person or which, which one just popped up most recently. And we don't pick for the right reasons and that really tends to dilute our quest. So you want not one to do list, you want three priority lists. So list number one should be the most important things you need to do to drive your most important outcome. Or in the book I make you into a a brave knight on a noble quest. Um, so what is the first, second and third thing you need to accomplish this week to advance your quest? But we all work in organizations and it's not enough to just have our quest. There are things that are going to be asked of you to support other knights and their noble quests. Maybe you've been asked to join an industry team in your consulting firm or whatever. Well, you've got to figure out which of those are worth my time, which of those uniquely could benefit from my participation, which make the most sense. And you need number one, number two and number three on your list of supporting other people's quests. And then the last one is there are side quests for all of us, you and I entrepreneurs like, oh well, I guess I got an invoice. I'm going to keep the lights on. And so also understanding, uh, you know, what are the top three or four things on my side quest list. Now the difference is when these are on three separate lists, then you're able to say where is the highest value real estate in my calendar, what I call your focus and forge time where you're most creative and most capable. And I'm going to fill that time with the things on my quest priority list. In the second tier of my calendar. I'm going to fill that with all the important ways I can contribute to my colleagues quests. And then you know, in between those things, Thursday at 4pm I'm going to fit in those side quests. But when we don't do that often, those side quests, we start the side quests by opening our email at 8am and spending the best hour of our day doing side quests. Um, so it's really important that we go through this process of first understanding what's the quest we're on, second, understanding the priorities for that and then for other people's quests and our side quests and then slotting that into our time with the appropriate split of time on our most important priorities. Uh, and then putting the other stuff into the right slots, um, putting the, putting this stuff into what I call the tidy intent time. When you're, you know, attention of a goldfish, that that's when you should be doing side quests, not your most important work.

Speaker A: Uh, this is fantastic. And as I said, Leon, I find these strategies here really help us to understand how we can wrestle back control of our attention. And of course, once we have better handle on what we pay attention to, the next thing we need to work on to reduce our thought load is to understand, regulate our emotions. And again, as I mentioned earlier, I love the unexpected synchronicity between some of the points you bring up in your book and what I was teaching these executives specifically, that we need to understand that when we talk about emotional regulation, we're not Talking about emulating Mr. Spock from Star Trek and repressing your emotions. Rather, it's to understand that your emotions are just information about your system. They're just data points that we don't have to react to, but we can decide how we respond to them in light of what they're telling us. Yeah. And in terms of managing our thought load, you have such lovely imagery that you use here to help us contextualize why we need to have these unexpected emotional responses. And it's to know your treasure. So could you elaborate on what this means and how this self awareness can help us improve not just our understanding of how and why we emotionally react, but, but how can we better regulate it?

Speaker B: Yeah. The metaphor of treasure came because I kept noticing that when I was working with teams, somebody would get emotional and, and people would start paying attention to the emotion. Like they would make that the issue. And that's not the issue, that's just a symptom. So I came up with this story of saying when the dragon is breathing fire, it's because they're protecting treasure. To differentiate between the emotion, the fire and the values and beliefs and what's underlying that perception of threat. That's the treasure that feels at risk or impinged upon. So people really, you know, I was getting all sorts of letters about I love the dragon story. It really helps me think differently. So what we have to understand is that we have emotional experiences and as you said, that we take in sensory information from our environment and also from inside our bodies and we, we use that information to give us data about, primarily about our safety. That's the Most important thing, as humans, we're animals. That's what we're processing. Am I safe here? Do I belong? Am I worthy? Am I in control? Those sorts of things and those emotional experiences are preconscious, not something that we can prevent. But we do want to quickly extract the data from them and process those emotions, because what comes next is a whole bunch of feelings that are cognitive narratives, stories that we create to rationalize what we're experiencing in our bodies. And so while the emotional experience is non negotiable and full of useful data, those feelings are, first of all, we are in control of them. But they're also where a lot of the drama comes from. So once we understand that, uh, there is a difference between an emotion and a feeling, uh, but you know, think of how terrible the English language is for helping us with that, because when we're talking about an emotion, we talk about how we feel. So this is not helpful. So I've been using, uh, what am I experiencing? To help me even process my emotions more effectively by saying, what am I experiencing? And more importantly, where am I experiencing that? Am I feeling sweaty palms? Am I, you know, feeling a, uh, you know, racing heart? Because if we start with understanding the emotional experience and what that emotion is and where it's coming from, then we have a chance to interrupt and interrogate those fictions that we tend to tell ourselves about what that's all about. So when the dragon's breathing fire, it's because it's protecting treasure and whether that's somebody else who's the dragon. And you need to ask them those questions to get them to open the drawbridge and help you understand what this is about or whether you're the dragon? You need to ask yourself those questions and figure out what story am I telling myself that makes me feel something I care about and value deeply is at risk here? So it's, uh, that whole section of the book really gives us a new emotional literacy and a set of skill sets, uh, to get the data out of our emotions without the drama from our feelings.

Speaker A: So here's another thing I liked about this section of your book, Leanne. When I've discussed with leaders the importance of emotional regulation, they intuitively understand it, but at the same time, they'll tell me, this is asking a lot, what with everything I already have to deal with. So I'm curious, Leanne, how do we go about doing this so we're not only helping other people become better at emotional regulation, but that we're learning for ourselves how we can do a better job managing our emotions so we can reduce our thought load.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're referring to a chapter I call Give to Get, uh, which is really nice. Right. And so it's a wonderful research finding that shows, you know, when you're just at wit's end and your thought load is so high and you're really not giving yourself grace, you know, that internal narrative is kind of nasty, that one of the best things you can do is help somebody else. So whether it's a direct report or somebody at home, a friend, if you help them to more effectively kind of understand what they're experiencing, perhaps reframe, uh, other options about what might be going on other than the sort of, uh, terrible, catastrophic story they're telling themselves as you go through that process. The research shows that somewhere, somewhere, somewhere inside your brain, something's listening. And you turn out to be more empathetic toward yourself and also better able to see that there are lots of different ways to interpret a situation and you don't have to believe those feelings you're feeling and stories you're telling. So it's just one of my favorite bindings because, you know, when I set out to write this book, I have so much empathy for how heavy the reader's thought load is. And I, and I know that asking you to go through this sort of emotional processing protocol is, is a lot, but I know that you are, you know, probably 10 steps away from somebody else who's struggling. And you're probably really good at helping them. And so going through the process of helping them. And then what you'll see is, what if I were to give, uh, myself advice the same way I just gave it to that person, what would I tell myself? And you'll see you begin to use those skills really effectively on yourself. So it's one of my favorite counterintuitive strategies that when you're at wit's end and you just, you can't be nice to yourself, go help somebody else and you'll get the benefit. I said it's kind of like being a physical trainer, uh, who you know is getting stronger while somebody else does the sit ups. I'm like, this is ideal, this is great.

Speaker A: So Leah, now that, that we've addressed the top two variables in your thought load equation, let's now look at the denominator in that equation. Our energy reserves. So in our modern workplaces, let's be honest, this is the one that gets overlooked the most for the odd reason that the more we create technology to make our lives better the more we try to compete with that very technology. And, uh, one of the things I shared with these executives was to look at what's behind the success records of elite athletes, namely how they're not always competing and then practicing, but that they incorporate into their routines periods for rest and recovery. And here it's also about recognizing how we have different energy sources. We have our cognitive, emotional, and physical energy, and each has a unique cycle that impacts our thought load. And fortunately, there are things we can do to both renew our energy sources as well as reduce our energy loss. But let's start with how we can renew our energy. As you share that, there are four different energy wells that can help us to boost our energy levels. So could you walk us through what these four energy wells are? Leanne?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things we could put this in the show note, but, um, there's a quick assessment that I built to help people understand which of the four they are. So that might be helpful to your listeners.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: So, um, let's take. First we'll talk about what the overwhelm style is for each person, and then we'll talk about what the well is that goes with it. So the first type of overwhelm, and you know, so probably about a quarter of your listeners will respond to this one, is when you get overwhelmed, you get busier. Yes. So you start doing more. You just act to feel busy. You write things on your to do list you've already done just for the satisfaction of crossing them off. Um, that's a whirlwind of, of overwhelm style. And usually what you need, the well of energy for you is something very physical. So get up, get out, uh, and so get walking. It might be that, uh, you have another meeting. Another meeting. Um, but it's a meeting where you can put in your earbuds and you can walk and participate in the meeting while you're moving. That physical movement is going to be a real wellspring of energy for folks who are like that. Um, there's a second completely different type of person for whom, uh, in overwhelm, they start to feel a sense that nothing is real, nothing is predictable, everything is uncertain or unfair. And I call them the stickler. Uh, and so in overwhelm, they go back to, as per my email of April 2nd, or if you refer to policy 17.3, 0.7. And so what they need, ah, the well for them is organization. Like, just let me take a minute to map out all these pieces. Like, if I can throw this into some kind of a spreadsheet. I'll feel like I can get back on top of it again. So that's their well of energy as organization. Um, the third type, the rogue. And a rogue, when they get overwhelmed, rogue is very socially motivated. And a rogue, when they get overwhelmed, they're often overwhelmed by so much bureaucracy or people who won't do what they say or who don't want do what they want. And so what happens when they get overwhelmed is they're like, well, well, I'm going to do this, you know, by hell or high water. And they'll tend to ignore the rules, get it done somehow, but not necessarily the right how. And so they need to come back to kind of a positive social interaction with other people. Rally some folks. Let's get around the whiteboard. Let's figure it out. That's their wellspring is, is coming back to feeling connected to people. And the final one, which is me, I'm going to put mine last. The brooder, um, and the brooder in overwhelm just feels like they're trying to boil the oce. Um, they, they start feeling like, oh, I could. I'm just, I'm not good enough for this. Um, woe is me. Um, and they need to reconnect to meaning. Right? Uh, and, and, and get some amount of traction by picking something very small and doable to get some momentum going. So that's part of the fun of this. And that's, you know, me with the psychology background, I, I never want to paint everyone with the same brush. And when I, when I work with clients, I see their version load looks very different. So you need to know what's your version. And then you need to tap into your own wellspring of energy to fill your cup. Um, and I'm really happy to provide some of the tools to help people identify that. And then very specific tools tailored to your type. Ah, because you need the things that will help you. For me, the thought that, um, a whirlwind's well would help, like, oh, you know what you need to do right now, you need to like, get up and, you know, go for a run. Said me never. Like, it's like, not, not a thing. But, um, you know, give me a big blank piece of paper and a bunch of colored markers to do a mind map of my idea. Now I'm back. Right. So, yeah, that's really important that you understand. Can I just make one other point, though? I think a lot of us intuitively know what our wellspring of energy is. The bigger problem is we're telling ourselves the wrong story. So what we're saying is, so for me, reading fiction is a really important, uh, source of renewable energy. But when there's a lot going on, when you're, for example, hypothetically launching a new book, um, it's really easy to tell yourself, I'm so busy, I don't have time to read this month.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: Um, and so the biggest problem is usually not that we don't know what renews our energy, it's that we are telling ourselves the exact wrong story, that it's so busy, I can't afford to do this. When we need to tell ourselves the other story, it's so busy, my thought load is so heavy, I can't afford not to do the things that give me the cognitive, physical, mental energy to carry that load.

Speaker A: So we have these four different energy wells that we could choose from to help us boost our energy. But let's face it, we won't be effective if we don't address the things that drain our energy. And you identify three of them. And these three energy drainers are decisions, drama and negative self talk. So how do we tamp down these energy drainers so we can also reduce our thought load? Leanne?

Speaker B: Um, yeah, so people have probably seen the stats around. The average person makes like, 35,000 decisions a day or something like that. So. So decision fatigue is a big problem. It really zaps our energy. So figuring out, you know, how do you get a bit of an audit of the decisions you're making and which ones can you reduce? And I would say particularly work on reducing the ones that have an emotional component. So I'll just give you a silly example. Um, I give keynote speeches all over, everywhere. So I'm packing a suitcase all the time. And for a long time, you know, what I was going to wear on stage was a bigger decision than I care to admit. Like, I still have all sorts of, like, hangover from the nerdy girl I was in grade 10. And are people judging me? And so what I was going to wear to be on a stage in front of a thousand people was a bit triggering. So what I've done is I've eliminated that decision by having, uh, almost a uniform that goes with each of my speeches. So now I don't think about it. I just know that that's right, there's no decision there. It's just, this is the speech, and so this is the suit that's going into the suitcase. So are there places where you can, uh, reduce decisions? Can you batch decisions or automate them? A lot of people love meal prep because a Sunday meal prep means you don't have that horrible Wednesday, like, what are we going to have for dinner? Right? You've, you've got that mapped out. So that's uh, a big one for sure. Drama. Uh, you know, where are the relationships in your life? Or just maybe they're, the call is coming from inside the house. Maybe it's conversations you're having with yourself that are toxic, that are, you know, are you in conflict, debt? In a place where you're sitting in grievance or resentment and that's draining your cup. Um, so deal with the drama that's really important and then the delusional self talk. Have you got imposter syndrome? Have you, you know, are you struggling with perfectionism, all those kinds of things. And actually one of the tools I've built to go with Thought World, which is all the resour that go with the book as a tool around some of those negative self talk and how you can, um, you know, have a better, healthier narrative. So just understanding that, you know, we can fill our cup from waterfalls of energy and wells of energy and all those sorts of things. And I take you through lots of ways to do that in the book. But if you're, if your cup has cracks in it, it doesn't help much. So how do you make sure that you are fixing the cracks in your cup that come from just too many decisions to make all the time, too much drama or delusional self talk. That's really not helping anybody.

Speaker A: So, Leanne, now that we've learned how to manage our own thought load, let's now talk about how leaders can help their team reduce their thought load. And as we did with ourselves, the starting point here is again learning to control what we focus our attention on. And there's a brilliant concept you share here, which I think so many listeners will immediately relate to. And it's addressing what you call the unseen work that is fragmenting your employees attention. So could you elaborate on what this is, Leanne, and how do leaders help their employees to address it? Especially if this work is a result of various collaborations and organizational matrices.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's why what we were talking about before of understanding your quest, but then also understanding which other people's quests, uh, are worthy of your time is important because most managers I talk to have a decent sense of the workload coming at their folks from them. Right. You have to Be fairly delusional as a manager not to know that. But very little sense or appreciation of how many things are sneaking in the side door and the back door from other parts of a matrix, uh, or a large corporate organization.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So the unseen work exercise. And I do have, um, a worksheet and a toolkit for this I'm happy to share with folks. Um, so what you do is you actually have people for. In the first step, log some of the things that require cognitive, physical, or emotional labor, um, that you might. Might not know about. So creating a list of those things is the first step. And then having a conversation where you help folks to triage through that. So, uh, there are different tools you can use. So it may be that they share something that's particularly arduous. They. They say, I, you know, I have to do this report last Thursday of every month. And it's, oh, it takes me six hours and three different databases. And. And you may say, okay, thanks for sharing that. That report is really important. Here's how we use it. And the note to self for you is, hey, last Thursday of the month, buy them a coffee or go over and say thanks or whatever. But it's equally as likely that when they say that, you're like, what report? Who does that go to? Um, what? And you're like, oh, we don't need to do that anymore. That was a Covid thing. Why are we still doing that? So you may delete it. Um, you may actually delay something. You may say, oh, you're doing that right now. Like, we're in the biggest production quarter of the year and you're working on that thing for like, three quarters from now. No, delay, delay, delay. Like, what are you doing? Um, you may distribute. You may say, oh, you're doing that. Why are you doing that report? You know, Becky the summer intern is an Excel whiz. Or, you know, why are you not using agentic AI to do. To do that report? Like, no, no, distribute that. And my favorite one is the fourth one, diminish it, which is most of our work ends up pretty bloated. So maybe the report made sense when it started. And then somewhere along the way, I was like, well, could you also do the cross tabs of that by region and then by eye color? And. And now it's taking forever. And so diminish is just saying, okay, is there 50% or 20% of that work that would get us 80% of the value. And can we shrink it back down, take the air out of that balloon? So Doing the unseen work exercise both to give you greater awareness and empathy for what is in someone's thought load, but also to give you the chance to add value by triaging with them or uh, or just better recognizing and appreciating and rewarding people's efforts. So the unseen work exercise is one of my favorites for showing that want to know what's in your thought load, um, and that matters to me and that I can add value in helping you manage it.

Speaker A: No, I absolutely agree. This is a great tool. But let's go on to the next step to helping reduce your team's thought load, which is one most leaders prefer to avoid. And that is helping your team to process their emotions. And it's worth pointing out here though that this isn't about the leader being some kind of therapist because that's often what I hear from people, but rather what we're talking about here is, and uh, it's a larger folks in my work for the last decade or so is that we have to understand the role empathy plays in leadership where it's about understanding your employees emotional context without necessarily having to agree with it. Which I tell you every time I've told leaders that there's this big, you can see the shoulders just kind of, you know, relax, the tension just falls away, like, oh, thank goodness. So with this in mind in terms of our thought load, Leanne, what do you tell leaders is a good starting point for this? Because for many leaders dealing with their employees, emotions is messy and complicated.

Speaker B: Yeah, it is. So first of all, we have to go back to what we learned for ourselves, which is there's a difference between emotional experiences and feelings. And we have to stop fearing emotional experiences. But, but our best way to deal with them is to help people, uh, process them instead of trying to invalidate them or move through them really quickly or sweep them under the rug or maybe if I just say it'll be fine, that it'll go away. And the answer is it will not. And if you tell someone it'll be fine, you are invalidating them, probably making them feel sheepish about sharing an emotional experience, reducing trust, and making it very likely that you're not going to get access to that important information in the future. So don't do that, don't invalidate, but do ask questions to understand where it's coming from and how they're thinking about the issue and what they're experiencing so that you then have the privilege of being able to help them. Consider other ways to frame the situation to uh, Work toward an action, because the antidote to anxiety is action. So really helping an individual. Um, and when you understand how to help an individual, not you don't ever take the ownership of it. And that's what happens when we try and say it'll be fine, right? Is we're trying to just, like, I'm going to take ownership of this and move past it, you can't do that. It doesn't work. Um, but helping them, being right beside them, making it clear to them that you understand that emotional experiences aren't negotiable or optional even in a work setting, um, and that you're there to help them reframe it and choose an action to move forward. So, uh, processing emotions is a much, much more efficient and effective way to get past them than pretending they're not there.

Speaker A: Okay, Leanne. So we've helped our employees understand what to focus their attention on, and we've created conditions that allow them to express emotion in a constructive way so it doesn't derail the rest of the team. Now let's talk about how we go about restoring our team's energy. Now, one of my favorite strategies you share here is what you call leave loudly, which I'm sure for our listeners doesn't sound very Canadian. But what have you found to be some good starting points for leaders to start helping to restore their team's energy?

Speaker B: I love leave loudly. So just so they know listeners know what the context is for that. Um, you know, I have two daughters, and when they were young, they were both competitive dancers. So I was running a big team in a consulting firm. Very heavy workload, heavy thought load. And the only way that we could manage this as a family to get these kids to dancing six days a week was if I took Mondays. Um, and taking Mondays meant at 3 o', clock, I had to leave the office, drive to the school, pick up our kids and our friends kids, get them to, you know, buy some dinner, get eight legs in little pink tights and four buns, and it was crazy. And so for three o', clock, that meant that I was leaving two and a half hours earlier than I would normally leave the office. And I could have left quietly. I could. I was the boss. I could have just left and not had to say a word. But I decided to leave loudly by saying, like, off to drive the dance bus. And leave loudly was just my way of modeling that we, we live real lives, that our. Our life is. Tends to have poor boundaries and compartmentalization. And, and that's okay as Long as we manage it. So Leave Loudly started with that kind of example. But leave Loudly is also when I'm having an emotional reaction to something I want to actually share that show people that, yes, I get emotional about things. It's okay. Here's how I'm taking accountability for. For processing that emotion, moving through it, or to leave loudly about my energy and to just say, you know what? Right now I'm actually going to go leave for an hour and go do a workout because I'm spent. I got nothing left in the tank. So it's really about role modeling. And Leave Loudly was just the story that came from me driving the dance bus. But it's a metaphor for we need to role model that. Managing thought load is something we all have to do, and sometimes it requires us to, like, hit, pause and. And try something different. And the more we show that and. And we're open about that, the more everybody else, first of all, they learn some strategies from us, but they also learn it's okay to be wrestling with these things. Uh, so I think leaving loudly is one of the healthiest things you can do as a leader.

Speaker A: You know, Leanne, what I loved about reading your book is how you address a common affliction we see in so many of today's workplaces. With some practical strategies that, you know, while they're easy to start, they nonetheless require this intentional effort on our part to not only keep at it, but to evolve with it, that we make changes and adjustments as we go along, because there will inevitably be new things trying to take our attention away from what matters. There will be new problems or issues that cause our emotions to bubble up in unproductive ways. And we all know there's going to be new energy drainers that come up, creating those new cracks in our cup, causing us to lose that precious energy we need to meet those very challenges. But I got to say, what you shared here today not only gives us the proper starting point and mindset to be able to evolve and adapt as things continue to change, but still be able to achieve our desired outcomes and purpose in spite of it. So it was lovely to have you back on the show for such an engaging and timely conversation.

Speaker B: Leanne. Um, thanks so much, Tamir. Oh, I had such a good time. Thank you for such great questions.

Speaker A: I've been talking with Leanne Davey about her new book, Thought Load. You can find links to Leanne's book, the previous episode she's appeared on, and to learn more about her work in the show. Notes for this episode on the podcast page of our website@tavitasir.com now if the themes we discussed today around managing attention, regulating emotions and restoring energy are something you'd like to explore with your own leadership team, I'd love to help facilitate that. As I mentioned earlier, I've been teaching an executive education program where one of the sessions addressed these pertinent issues Leading today, I also offer customized keynotes and interactive workshops that are delivered both in person and virtually where you'll learn how to turn these high level strategies into daily, daily habits. You can learn more about my speaking and leadership development work@ tavernasir.com where you can also find articles I've written on various timely leadership topics on my Leadership blog that was recently recognized as one of the top 20 leadership blogs for 2026. And if today's conversation resonated with you, it would mean a great deal to me if you could take a moment to leave a rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to this podcast as it really does help others to discover this show. I'm Tavi Nasir. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time here at the Leadership Biz Cafe.