Burnout: Why Thought Load, Not Workload, Is Draining You with Liane Davey

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Speaker A: Hello and welcome back to beyond the To Do List, a, uh, podcast about productivity. I'm your host, Eric Fisher. Dr. Leanne Davey is an organizational psychologist with a gift for naming the thing everybody's feeling but nobody's put a word to yet. She was on the show back in 2019 teaching us how to fight well at work. And she's back with a new book that renames the whole problem with Sitting Underneath the Fighting. Leanne, welcome back. Thanks for being here.

Speaker C: I'm so excited for this conversation. Eric, thanks for having me back.

Speaker A: You're welcome. So here's what got me this. This whole show, in some ways, to some people, 600 plus episodes. It's basically one long argument about the to do list. Manage it, shrink it, get it under control. I mean, it's much more than that, obviously. But your book opens by saying we've been staring at the wrong number the entire time. And it's not the work load, it's the thought load, the mental and emotional weight you're hauling around while you try to do the work. And the timing is almost cruel because AI is finally here to shrink the doing right as the thinking and the deciding go through the roof. And I Want to start right there on that wrong metric.

Speaker C: We are stuck on the wrong metric, aren't we? And you know, I first figured this out by watching the friction grow between employees and their managers. So I was watching employees with their eyeballs floating, just being like, I can't cope, I can't keep up, uh, like this, this workload is so high. And watching their managers kind of do that thing that a dog does if they don't understand you, kind of like turn their head and kind of look back at them like, I don't get it. You're, you're not doing that much work. And I was trying to figure this out, what is this disconnect? Because it was getting kind of nasty. And I started to realize that the manager can see the workload. They see what they assign, they see what comes out the other end of the sausage making machine, but they cannot see your thought load. They cannot see how many cognitive demands are on you, how much complexity there is, the decision fatigue. They can't see that. And they can't see the emotional burdens that are triggering you all day every day from every different source. And they can't really see how empty your batteries are. And so that that equation, the, the load of the cognitive demands and the emotional burdens divided by these declining energy reserves, that equation needed to be defined. The word thought load was necessary so, so that we could improve the conversation, figure out what we need to pay attention to and realize why everything feels so damn hard.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. And you put an act, I mean, you were kind of hinting at it there an actual equation, uh, attention and emotions on top. If we're doing a math problem and then energy on the bottom. Is the formula meant to be literal or is it more of a lens for figuring out those three things? Which of those three things is killing you this week?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think the relationship between the three really is quite literal. So the weight of what you're carrying is really adding, and some people say multiplying the cognitive demands and the emotional burdens. And then you can imagine the day where you're well rested, you had a healthy breakfast and your energy reserves are high and that weight feels totally bearable. I got this. No problem. And you can also think of another day where you didn't sleep well, you're, you're riding that banana nut muffin and it's two o' clock in the afternoon and, and the whole thing feels heavier. So the idea that, you know, energy is in the denominator just like any, any equation like that as, as the denominator gets smaller, the whole thing gets a lot bigger. So, so it really does, um, behave that way that we can have our thought load go up either because we have more emotional and cognitive demands or because we have less energy to carry them. You know, have we got a science lab where we could, you know, do it absolutely, literally, quantitatively? No, not yet.

Speaker A: Well, and the AI piece that I mentioned is this part that I can't stop thinking about that for a decade or so. The pitch was the tools will do the work for you, and now they kind of can. Right as that thinking load spikes. So walk me through that. Why does taking tasks or off my plate not lighten the load the way everyone was promised?

Speaker C: Yeah, so it lightens some of the load. So it's really good at certain things. So for me, when I was writing thought load, it was really great to be able to ask for what kind of studies exist that look at these three different components and look at everything published in the last 10 years in these journals. And then it just runs away and does it. And for an hour I can have been working on something else and it returns to me. It was. So that's great. But here's the thing. If I didn't get the prompt right, there's a lot of work to do to figure out how do I get the right prompt. Um, if stuff comes back that's like, oh, well, some of it's good, but some of it's not really helpful. I have to figure that out. It's still my judgment.

Speaker D: True.

Speaker C: Um, story. There was, uh, there were multiple hallucinations in the research findings that came back. And there was one study that I know had been debunked, but it served it up to me as if it was as valid evidence for what I was talking about as anything else. So that spiked anxiety in me, I was immediately thinking, uh, are there other false things in here that. So now I have the work to actually go through and click every link, read every original study. So it's helped me truly, it's helped me figure out what are all the studies that I need to go and read. And that's very helpful. But I decided that it didn't do a good enough job in reading them for me or evaluating them or those sorts of things. So it does some of our work, but it certainly needs then in some ways, just like doing the Google search, that's the easy stuff, I could do that at 3 o' clock when I'm not really at my best. It's taken that stuff. But the judgment and the discernment and all of that stuff, it's kind of left us with more hard work, more complexity, more of the decisions. So you know, it's a pro and a con. I think the other thing is that thought load is not just the cognitive impacts of AI, but it's also the emotional impacts. And if you think about how many stories have come out of people who vibe coded something and then it crashed, um, you know the newspaper reporter who published a review of a book that didn't exist. So there's emotional, there's anxiety, there's risk, there's a lot of stuff starting to percolate emotionally from using these tools as well, including just overwhelm, like just it comes back at you with this giant thing and you're like something else for me to read. And so I uh, think it's a very mixed bag right now. I think, you know, AI, there's certainly lots of experience I've had and I've seen others have that it has massive benefits in certain parts of our workload.

Speaker D: Woohoo.

Speaker C: But we haven't yet stopped to reconcile what are the impacts it has in amplifying all the different pieces of our thought load. And there's lots of interesting research we could pull m that apart more. But uh, you know, I think I'm um, I'm m so excited that I've brought this word out right at this time because it's going to give us language to stop and say okay, I get that agentic AI is a boon for parts of our workload, but can we stop and talk about what it's doing to our thought load?

Speaker A: Mhm, mhm. And I think that the, the honest part or even the heart of the book, um, semi versus this whole show's reason for existing is worth touching on here too. Um, essentially you say that data, your data says that productivity is flat and it's not because workloads are too high. You even separate dead wood from dead work and the trivial tasks that nobody killed. But for a lot of people listening, it is genuinely too much and the expectations are genuinely unreasonable. And so I'm considering this, uh, from a place of where's the line between you're carrying the wrong load and that's on you to fix and you're being handed an impossible load. And no amount of personal thought load management fixes a broken system. So how much of this can one person actually solve from their own desk?

Speaker C: Yeah, so a, uh, tremendous amount of this is systemic. So I'm thinking about, I've decided I've dedicated the next five years of my life to the thought load problem. And I'm on record as saying that. And I think it's two problems that I want to play a part in solving. So one is changing the way we work. And so I think there are things individuals can do that they can own, be accountable for and make themselves more effective. But the other piece is then I want to change work because so much of this is systemic, so much of this is a failure of our systems, um, you know, the erosion of our organizational cultures. So I think it's some of each. I would say the biggest thing is that we are chasing output when we should be chasing outcomes. So if you think about you can pay attention to three different things. Your activity, like am m I doing stuff, am I busy? Am m I booked and busy?

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: Am I like responding to the slack channels really fast? That's activity. You can pay attention to output which is did I get the thing done, did I check it off, did I produce, did I deliver? And you can pay attention to outcomes. Did I change the world? And when I say the world, it could be a very tiny part of the world, but did uh, I change the world in the way I wanted to? And I think right now when we're with heavy thought load, the most likely thing we're paying attention to is just activity. Who's being responsive, who's, who's getting back to me fast, who's, who's like running between meetings and you know, at the office long hours emailing me at 11 o' clock at night. If we pay attention activity, all we're going to get is a bunch of busy burned out people. If we switch to paying attention to output. I'm going to say this and people are going to think it's better, but I'm going to tell you it's not. If you pay attention to output, you get productive people. And I think most people are like woohoo. Productive. Yay. That's what I want to be. I want to be productive. And that's where I think we're in the biggest trap. Because we're producing so much and AI lets us produce at an even higher rate.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: But the question is, is any of what we're producing moving the needle on our outcomes? And so much that we're producing is not moving the needle. So only if you pay attention to outcomes can you become effective. And so I think what we can really do a better job of as individual contributors and as Managers is a better conversation about what are the outcomes and what are the small number of things I can produce that make it more likely I'm going to move the needle on those outcomes and then what are the activities that are necessary to deliver that? And if you have that conversation, then start to say, and what's all the other stuff we're doing and why? And can we stop? Um, so I think that's the biggest starting point is getting out of a just hustle culture, which is just, if I'm doing stuff, I get the gold star. We got to move through there to productivity culture, which is like, if I'm delivering and generating, I'm a winner. And we got to get to. Did I actually change the things that matter? Um, only when we get to that point can we start to peel back the amount of activity that is just engulfing us.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I love that you draw this line between productivity and effectiveness or being productive versus being effective. And people know this if they've listened to the show before. This is not something new, but it's us being finally aware or calling it out or saying we're not going to take it anymore, I guess. Um, and you've got a great anecdote about this where you essentially. And I want you to tell it, but you wrote a blog post every week and then never missed a YouTube upload for 13 years. And talk a little bit about that and the lessons learned there because it fits here, I think.

Speaker C: Talk about my own epic fails. The book is full of them. Um, so, yeah, I was in the productivity trap, so I'm very clear on what my mission in the world is. I want to help people achieve amazing things together. Together. That's what I'm here. I, I only do work on teamwork. I'm not a coach. I'm not like that. That is my thing. I'm, um, the teamwork doctor people have decided to call me. And so I'm really clear that. And 12 or 13 years ago, I started writing a blog post every single week. Didn't go to bed on Sunday night until the blog was posted. And then some number of years ago, I started doing the same. A YouTube video, a new YouTube video every single week. And I was so proud of myself. I was like, just like you, like how 600 episodes.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Like at some. Super proud just of, of how consistent I was and dedicated and, you know, all these things. Um, and. And I wasn't asking myself, it's, you know, in this day and age, is that still how people Want to consume content. You know, the good news for you is the answer is yes. Like, more people want to consume audio content and podcasts than ever before. But a blog, is that really it? Is that really what they want? So I was so proud of my productivity and. And oblivious to the fact that the effectiveness was eroding. And so I had to do a big reset and kind of say. And of course, it was while I was writing this section of the book that I was like, oh, the epiphany for myself. Um, and it's been amazing to go back to. All right, the mission hasn't changed. I know the outcome. I want people to be able to collaborate more effectively. I want teams to be a whole that's greater than the sum of the parts. That's not changed in all those years. But how I get there and how I create content and things that help people to get there, uh, has changed very much because I was so enamored of my consistent, reliable output and clueless about my lack of effectiveness.

Speaker A: You also throw. Yes, yes, you. You also throw cold water on something that the productivity world worships. And it's this fantasy of 8, 10, 18 hours of heads down deep work. And you say most of us are built, uh, you say most of us are built for four hours of the good stuff, full stop. And that's a relief because that's how I feel with my experience. And. And I just think that you need to make the case, though, that what happens when someone actually believes this fantasy is true?

Speaker C: Oh, I see it constantly. I see so many work products created in the, like, 12th or 13th of the day, and you're just looking at it. You're like, did you. Did you process this idea at all? And AI is making that worse right here. Here's my 32 slide deck that's in some completely vanilla slide presentation mode. Because I had an AI do it. I haven't stopped to think, what is the outcome we're trying to create after this presentation? I haven't done the work to. So, yes, uh, in hour 12 or 13, you can have Claude produce a PowerPoint deck for you about something. Will it, you know, make people feel the way you need them to feel? Will it help them have the insight you need? Will it help them, you know, to move to action? Not likely. So, you know, I think this is one of the things that worries me so much is the sort of cognitive atrophy and the surrender, um, particularly when we're using AI. But even if you're not using AI, that you know, 13th hour of work is not getting you the kind of thinking. So the problem is if we've, if we've outsourced the kind of work you might have been able to do at hour 13, if we've outsourced that to AI and now we're trying to do the real focus and forge kind of work at that hour, we just are not going to be in a position to do that well. So we're seeing a lot of slopes, a lot of poorly processed, completely abdicated responsibility. So lots of production, there's lots coming out. But you look at it and you're like, uh, what does this actually say? Like what? So what now what? And of course that's. That's what's not there.

Speaker A: Yeah, we've heard the term AI slop a lot recently. And I would say there's also human slop.

Speaker C: Human slop. There's just so much slap.

Speaker A: Yes, that's what you get when you're, when you're trying to check things off of a to do list at, you know, 9 o' clock at night. And here's the thing, somebody's 9 o' clock at night is their optimal time. I, um, don't hear me wrong, that's

Speaker C: really important to say.

Speaker A: Not slamming that, just saying right. When you've started at 9am or even 7am and then gone that entire day, then you're not, um, optimal.

Speaker C: So exactly, it's your 13th hour of work as opposed to where that is like that, that could be anywhere for you. Depending on it's when you are in, in that time where your frontal lobe has gone offline, you're running old playbooks because that's all you have the wherewithal to do all those sorts of things when you're into that mode. Uh, Stop

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Speaker A: Speaking of to do lists. So you run three lists instead of one and assign your best hours to your most important work. Which I think this is great. I try to do this myself but give people a quick version of how that reshapes a week.

Speaker C: Yeah, so if you think about the standard to do list which is kind of longer than your arm, um, and has this complete mix of you know, the, you've got one line on your to do list for like the most important thing, you know, like create AI strategy for the next five years is like one point on the to do list. And uh, you know, send expense receipts from Kansas City trip is another. So the problem with the one to do list is that when you have a high thought load, you pick off that list for the wrong reasons. So you probably pick off which thing is attached to the scariest person or which, you know, email just popped up in my inbox or those sorts of things. So what we want to do is we want to create three separate lists. The first list being a uh, prioritized list. One, two, three of the things that will make the most meaningful contribution to the outcomes that you are uniquely in your organization to deliver. Right. That's list one. That's your quest and you want that to be the first list with unadulterated by anything else the second list. And a lot of people are going to relate to this one. You uh, know we work in organizations, we work in lots of cross functional teams and there's a list of things that are probably other people need you to help them with their request and that's completely legitimate. But they'll probably ask you to do things that are kind of like why are you asking me to do that? Isn't that your. So the second list is where can I add unique value to helping other people achieve their quests? And again, one, two, three, in order. And then let's be real, we all have a list of side quests like the expense receipts from Kansas City or whatever else is compliance training, whatever else is on there. So you know, I don't like the idea of pretending that as a member of an organization you only have to work on your quest. That's just not real. It's, that's la la Land. Um, but I also don't like treating those three lists as if they all deserve your best time. So when we've got three to do lists, then we can have three calendar slots. What's my focus? And forge time, my most precious time, where I'm really crackling with energy and insight. I'm putting my stuff in there. And normally what we do is we start the day with side quests or we put side quests into that precious time. Then a second tier of time where you're still, you're good, you're energized, but, you know, you're probably not as creative as you would be. Okay, that's where I'm going to help with other people's quests. And then Thursday at 4:00', clock, uh, that's where you can do your expense receipts. Right? The place where you're otherwise kind of drooling on the desk. So getting clear on the fact that, you know, one to do list beyond the to do list for me is to three prioritize lists that really help us do the most essential and important work in the right time slots. That's how I do it with my week.

Speaker A: Love it. So one of the other things that you use the word thought load, and that's the title of the book obviously. But there's more than just thoughts in there. There's feelings. And that can get mushy for some people. But let's get at that thing that keeps high performers awake. You separate emotions, the stuff that's happening in your body before you've decided anything from feelings, which calls, um, which, which you call the stories we wrap around those feelings. And so emotions are data. I, and I love that you said this because I have been thinking this lately that as a, as a person who collects lots of data, I'm like, emotions can be data. It helps to treat it like that. But, um, so what's actually happening at 2:00am um, when someone's lying there replaying a conversation for the ninth time and where in that chain can they interrupt it?

Speaker C: Yeah, great question. So, you know, even as we think about, um, talking about the difference between emotions and feelings, you realize how kludgy the English language is for this purpose. Because when we talking about an emotion, we're talking about how we feel, which is like, doesn't make sense. So let's talk about an emotional experience. And an emotional experience is a complex physiological reaction to our, uh, to our, to stimuli, to our environment and that sort of thing. So, uh, you know, it's a Physiological thing, it's preconscious, it's non negotiable. And that's what we all recognize, right? All of a sudden my stomach flipped, right? Or my heart started racing and, and there was some kind of an emotion tied to that. Anxiety, fear, excitement. That is an emotional experience. The feelings are, as you said, right? When we start to concoct a story to rationalize why we're having that physiological experience, that's where the, the damage tends to come because we are really, uh, not good at. We write fiction in our feelings, so we don't write nonfiction. We come up with grand things that usually with a strong negativity bias. You know, often with imposter phenomenon, or everybody's going to hate me or oh my goodness, we craft these stories that are not very helpful. So what we want to do is recognize that there's a difference between these emotional physiological experiences and then the cognitive thoughts and stories we tell ourselves. So the best way to do it. Often when we have an emotional experience, the first question we ask is, why? Why am I, Why am I feeling this way? And the second question we ask is, who, Whose fault is this? Who. Who made me feel this way? And those are the wrong questions to ask. So the first question we want to ask when we notice an emotional experience in our bodies is where. Where am I experiencing this? Is this my skin flushing? Am m. I embarrassed? Is this my whatever, my palm sweating? Am I anxious? So start with where and then go to what? Hm, what is this? And you can start with the Pixar inside out, simple characters of emotions. Is this anger, disgust, happiness? Um, but then you want to get even more specific, like, oh, I think this is jealousy. I think just watching how that just went down, I think I'm jealous. So if we start with those two questions, we create this little bit of distance from what we're experiencing in our bodies, which can help us just create a little space. Feel like this is something that is happening to us, but it isn't us and we can actually work through it. Then you can go on to, okay, what story am I telling myself? Like, why? Why am I feeling this way? What story am I telling myself that's reinforcing this? And then like, uh, where can I go next? What's a step? So if we learn how to really efficiently catch this emotion, trust that there's something there, um, figure out where it is, what it is, and then how it relates to these fictions we're creating for ourselves, we give ourselves somewhere to go. Ah, a next Step. And it is incredible how once you realize that these two things are different, you learn to get good at metabolizing your emotions. And when I say metabolize, you think about when you eat something. What you want to do is go through a process. Digestion or metabolizing is to extract the goodness, the nourishing the nutrients. Right. Which is the data. What can I learn from that emotional experience? What is my body trying to tell me? Um, get the good stuff out. But you also, in metabolizing, figure out, uh, yeah, that's waste product. I can get rid of that. That's a crazy story. That's not true. So how do I get better at, you know, we're never going to stop having emotions. We wouldn't want to. But how do I get better at metabolizing them so I can pull out the goodness and get rid of all the rest? So it's a really different way of thinking about it. And whether that's you or that's what you're helping a, uh, teammate do. Direct report do your teenage kid do, you know, that's what we want to do, is help people the kind of questions and things that help them create a little distance from it and then metabolize that emotional reaction. So. Yeah, but nobody teaches us this.

Speaker A: No, no, not at all. Um, and in fact, so you've got five steps that you can walk through to do this. And I'd love for you to walk us through those steps, but first I'd actually like you to walk us through the snowstorm story, the shovel story, because I think this is a great example of. I mean, we've talked about, you know, the, um, emotions and thought load and narratizing or narrating it in our head. But this really gives a good example of what we really mean by that.

Speaker C: I think in this case, I was definitely narratizing this for sure. It was so painful. So it, uh, was a couple of years ago, there was a massive snowstorm. I live in Toronto, and we had this huge snowstorm. And we live right in the middle of the city. We have this very narrow but very long shared driveway. And so when we have to shovel, it is a massive. We have 70ft of driveway, of which 40 of it you have to fully remove the snow because it's this tiny little driveway. So it's not very fun. And on day one, the snow was so heavy that one of our shovels broke. And so we were down to one shovel. And my husband and I were taking turns. This will be. We decided we would just shovel, like, every hour and a half or two hours to stay on top of this storm that was about, uh, 2ft, 28 inches. We got in in, like, 36 hours. And at one point, he came out. I was out there, and he came out, and he took the shove, and he started shoveling when it was my turn. And did I narratize this one, man? Uh, I came up with this wonderful story about how he didn't think I was up to the task and I wasn't doing it good enough. And I. To the point where all of a sudden tears are running down my face, and most people are like, so he was willing to do your turn of shoveling for you, and you were crying, what? But I had concocted this whole story about how this was a slight on me. And, uh, so, thankfully, because I was writing the book at the time, I was able to go through this process of saying, like, where am I feeling this? And it was really like, my heart was pounding and, okay. And, you know, how do I stop and reflect on what is it? And it's like, I felt disrespected. That was really the emotion that I was feeling, slighted and disrespected. And then, okay, what was the story that I was telling myself? And. And the story I was telling myself was that this was him saying I wasn't doing it right, as opposed to him saying, like, what? Okay, so the next step is what. How do I reframe?

Speaker D: What?

Speaker C: What's another alternative? Well, an alternative was he's really fit, really energized. And. And he wanted to be helpful. He. He was good to go for another round. Um, and then, okay, how do I share with him? And so the good news was, in this case, I was able to kind of say, can I just tell you that when you took that shovel, here's the story I started telling myself. Like, I started telling myself that I wasn't good enough and I wasn't doing right. The face was awesome. The face was like, what? Like, that's the most cockamamie thing I've ever heard. It's like, I know, I know. I just need to tell you that that's what it is. And. And it's so helpful because then you realize, like, uh, you know, in the book, I also talk about, like, if a dragon is breathing fire, if you're having an emotional response, it's because you're protecting treasure. And it was a really helpful conversation to realize I have this treasure about being a strong, independent woman. It was like, oh, he's, he's tapped into that. Or he's, he's come too close. He's threatened that. So I'm, I'm, you know, getting my backup. And so, you know, if you can go through these things, process it for yourself, learn more about your treasure, communicate effectively with other people about, you know, what I think this was about? I think this was about me, you know, telling myself this story that I like to be the strong, independent woman and then all of a sudden feeling like, you know, some trad wife that had to have her snow shoveled for her. So it was hilarious because I was such an idiot. But, um, thankfully, going through my own process actually worked.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the treasure because you conjure this image and I think of, uh, the hobbit, the dragon, and his, you know, sleeping in his room of treasure. And he, you know, someone gets too close, like Bilbo, and then we do this. We do this because. And, and we react and, or overreact because we don't know the why behind the why of one. What that treasure is. Even though we do know it internally, we don't know it consciously enough to know that someone got too close and threatened something. And so how do we get to that point where when someone overreacts to something small, how do they find out what it was that they were really protecting?

Speaker C: Yeah. So I always say when we, when we react to the dragon, um, we tend to take either a sword, a shield, or a bucket of water. Right. So the sword is that we get angry with the person and we try and hurt them because they are being emotional. Right. Like, you're not being a team player here. Don't be so sensitive. Or, so we train the sword or we try the shield. Well, this wasn't my decision. It's not my fault. Or the bucket of water is just like, I'm going to douse the flames without making anything any better. It'll be fine. It'll be fine. Right? We just try to make it make nice. None of those things work. What we want to do is to get them to open the drawbridge and sort of lead us to what this treasure is. And you, uh, know, there's a story I tell in the book about doing this with somebody I work really, really closely with. And I was getting ready. I was actually. What really happened is it was a Sunday. I was reading my weekend newsletters and I read this wonderful newsletter by Christopher Penn about using AI in marketing.

Speaker A: I love that newsletter. Isn't it Neat. I want to make sure I link up to that in the show notes. Chris is a great guy and does great thought when it comes to AI.

Speaker C: So I read Chris every Sunday, and he did this great thing about marketing and how to use AI to get a better plan and whatever. So it was a Sunday. I was like, this will be fun. And I fed all this stuff in and did it in the he suggested. And I got these results, and so I sent them to my partner at the agency I work with. And I was all excited. Like, look at this cool stuff. Look at this fun stuff we can do. And he got really upset. Uh, like, the dragon was definitely breathing fire. He was dismissive of what I had sent. He was very cold in our call, when that's not like him at all. And I was like, what. What is going on? And I just really. Some big, open drawbridge questions, like, how are you interpreting me sending this to you? And what's going on here? Just, like, big things like that. And we finally got to the point where he was able to say, my treasure is being your strategic advisor, like, being the person who's your partner. We get on these calls every week, and we have these really cool conversations, and we innovate. And you just sent me this finished product. And I'll be honest. Like, my first thought was that I'm not necessary. My second thought was, like, my biggest client is going to fire me, and I'm not going to be able to pay the rent. I was like, m.

Speaker E: And it was

Speaker C: so interesting, it was so valuable, because it was wonderful that we have the trust that he could be vulnerable and tell me that. And then we had the chance to talk about it, and I said, oh, that's so interesting. Like, you're. You're thinking about that as me sending you a finished product and saying, you're not needed. I thought about it as I went to the grocery store without you, bought some ingredients, and I sent them to you so we could get in the kitchen and cook. And when I reframed it that way, then he was like, oh, but it's been great, because in the time since then, I know that his treasure is those conversations where we dream and we think, you know, further time horizon, we, you know, all that sort of thing. So we have to protect that. We have to make sure we have that. And now I'm more careful that if there's, you know, raw ingredients I'm sending. I'm very clear to say, just. Just went to the grocery store. These are just the raw ingredients. This, let's set up a time to cook with them. So it was, it was so great. So you know, you can either have, have a great relationship with somebody and have them help you by asking those questions. If you don't have that person and you notice, you just start to breathe fire. Ask yourself the questions. What is at stake for me here? What am I protecting? What did I, what just happened there that I all of a sudden look like smog and was like, you know, breathing fire? Um, so you can actually ask yourself the open drawbridge questions and if you figure things out, then just share. I think what was going on for me here is that as we're talking about reprioritizing the projects, I'm imagining my project falls off the bottom of the list and I'm imagining going back tail between my legs to my team to tell them their last three months of work are going to be scrapped. And, and I'm worried that they're going to think I'm a bad advocate for them and that I let them down. And, and you know, when we can be vulnerable in sharing, you know, these stories we're telling ourselves, then you, uh, know, it really strengthens the connection between us, but it also lets everybody else help. Right. And just say, oh, okay, that's not what we intended. Or so yeah, this whole thing about emotions are non negotiable but when you're breathing fire, figure out what's the treasure and then we've got a way forward from there. Right. So yeah.

Speaker D: Granger knows. When you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, Filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something, something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

Speaker E: When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast solution of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

Speaker A: There's Also, this other dimension to this that plays into the miscommunication or the misreading of a message like. Or a handoff like, you just framed. And it's this, uh, treating I'm tired as a sleep project. Treating I'm tired as a sleep problem. And in other words, it's energy. You say that restoring energy is often less about rest and more about reconnecting with what actually motivates you, and that it's, uh, an intrinsic motivation and it's an. It's a renewable resource. And, uh, unpack that. Why does the thing that's supposed to drive us so often drain us?

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So it's really funny. It's finally emerging, the research is emerging that you can't cure burnout by resting. And it's so funny because if you think about the metaphor of, like, batteries, we often talk about my batteries are depleted. Like, you can't recharge your batteries just by not draining them, right? So that's what we do. It's like, okay, I'm gonna go lie on the couch for a weekend. It's like, like, okay, well, that will stop draining your batteries, maybe, but your thought load might come with you to the couch, but, uh, it's not going to charge them. So we have to think about what are the things that renew and restore and recharge our batteries. So, uh, that's a couple of things, right? You got to fill your cup. And you can fill your cup from a waterfall, which is doing something meaningful. That's a little bit challenging, um, with no distractions. So I can work in flow. That's a great way. Way to actually get re. Energized. I do this a lot. I. I have a little time timer. It's a. It's a tool for, you know, kids with adhd. That's like a physical clock. It has a big red knob. Um, and, uh. Oh, sorry. It has this.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker C: Um, but, um, you know, for the first 15 minutes, I start to do something. When I set my time timer for 40 minutes, the first 15 minutes, I got no energy at all. But if I've left my phone in another room and I've turned off all notifications, and I'm working on a project that's inherently valuable, by 15 or 20 minutes in, I'm rolling. I'm all of a sudden super energized. And sometimes the little alert will go off to say, I have a meeting in 10 minutes. And sometimes my reaction is like, aww, this is good. So there's certainly Waterfalls that we can create by working in flow, removing distractions, those sorts of things. But let's be clear, there's not that many of those in the week. So the other thing we have to know is what charges our batteries as an individual. So I created a little tool, the Overwhelm Assessment, to help people understand four different personality types and different ways we get overwhelmed and different ways we need to recharge. So some people are really recharged by physical activity. So, uh, you and I were talking before we, before we pressed record, talking about gum chewing and how valuable gum chewing is to people who need that bit of motor stimulation. So, you know, I got a bunch of meetings. I better, better make sure I've got some gum or some silly Putty or I'm going to take a quick walk around the block. So there's physical charging of your batteries. There are other people who are really restored and renewed by organization. Things tend to entropy, they get chaotic. And those folks, if they can just take a little bit of time, you know, have a piece of paper, create the plan, understand what's happening, when all of a sudden they're more energized. Other people, it's social for other people. It's more creativity. I'm one of those creativity types. When I get overwhelmed, I become kind of depressive. I become, uh, demoralized. Uh, I feel like I'm trying to boil the ocean. And so my energizing thing is a big 11 by 17 piece of paper and some colored markers. And if I start to mind map and draw and doodle and all of a sudden I'm. I get exc. So it's really understanding yourself. But there's one more caveat, which is that most people have some sense of what recharges their batteries. They're like, I know that I need that creative kind of outlet. But the problem is not that we don't know. It's that we tell ourselves the wrong story. So we'll say something like, it is so busy right now, I can't afford to read my book. I can't afford to go for a run. And that is just the worst fiction, a lie we tell ourselves. Um, and it's kind of like saying, it is so important that I get from point A to point B. I don't have time to get gas. What? But that's kind of what we do. It's so. It's so important. Everybody's counting on me to get from point A to point B. So I, I gotta go. I gotta go. I don't have time to get gas, really. And that's what we do. So we just need to change our language. It's so busy right now. I can't afford not to charge my batteries and whatever it is that charges your batteries. So we've got the story wrong. So I think if you think about it that way, if you really got to get to point, point B, I think it's really a good idea to leave without putting gas in the tank. That's. That's what we do.

Speaker A: Yeah. And one of the greatest things that you provide is this quiz to help people figure out basically what type, uh, of overwhelm. What type of overwhelm you are. That's not the way to phrase it, but that's kind of how it feels, I guess. And so they would then know what, uh, well, that they can go to. To refill from or get gas from.

Speaker C: Right, right, right. When you got to, like, dig deep into that well. So that. Yeah, this will help you understand, uh, what's your. And really valuable like with any of these tools? It's so valuable because you realize, oh, what charges me back up is exactly the opposite to what charges up, uh, my partner or my colleague or my boss. My boss is doing all these things, thinking that she's doing us this big favor and charging us up when her version. It's like her will seems like poison to us. I won't drink from that. Like, my husband gets so much energy from. From physical stuff. He runs marathons. I look at that, I'm like, dude, that would kill me. I need to go read a book. So it's really valuable when you can get that insight about yourself. But it's also really helpful to realize somebody may be trying to help you and trying to energize you, but they're trying to do it from their well. And that may not be potable for you. Right. You might need your own version, carry your own water bottle.

Speaker A: And it creates all this internal friction, but also team friction. Uh, let's close this loop. Like, last time you were on the show, the whole conversation was about how to fight well and that avoiding conflict quietly wrecks a team. And in this book, though, you're saying conflict as it shows up again, because it does, um, it sure does as conflict, debt, a thing that drains everyone's energy. So how has your thinking shifted in those years? Do you now see the fight you're avoiding first as an energy problem, Something that's silently taxing your thought load while you're dodging it?

Speaker C: Yeah. Vicious cycle. It's. It's the. While you're dodging it. Yeah. So now what I see is that our thought load is so high that we can't. We tell ourselves that we can't afford to have that conflict. So I, uh, I can't deal with more cognitive complexity. I can't. I can't make another decision. I'm so. Decision fatigue. I can't risk triggering you getting angry at me because I got enough emotional crap I'm carrying around and I got no energy to spare. So what I see now is that one of the reasons we're in so much conflict, debt avoiding, things that we need to be working through, is that our thought load is so high, we just can't bear it. We won't have the conversation. We won't risk it. But then the vicious cycle is that that conflict, uh, debt we're sitting in is a very, very heavy weight on our thought load because we sit in grievance or we sit in resentment. Um, you know, it adds complexity to do all the workarounds, but it also just leaves us with this emotional residue that's quite toxic to us and burns our energy. So, yeah, we're in this really unhealthy cycle of thought load leads to conflict debt. And conflict debt amplifies thought load. So we got to get out of it. We got to just. Just go to that well, find the gumption and address the issue so that we can get it out of our thought load.

Speaker A: Well, your book is full of sharp, practical tactics for reducing drag. More focus, uh, more flow, less noise in your head. I think we all want those things. But there's a moment near the end of the book where you write about leaving loudly and making a point of visibly stepping away to drive your kids to dance so that your team knows a, uh, life can have, uh, different rhythms. And that rest isn't an indulgent. And, uh, that rest isn't an indulgence, I should say. And that work can always be, uh. Work can't always be more fast or better or whatever. I mean, that's this whole show's thesis. So after all those tactics, all the reclaimed hours, the lightened low, essentially, if someone wins back the thinking time and the energy, what's that in service of?

Speaker C: Oh, just a great life. So, you know, when. And I've been working on this because, of course, uh, you know, I went deep into the research and the neuroscience to understand how to do it, and then I've been applying it to myself and, you know, just feeling On a Friday afternoon. Like, you got really meaningful things done that week. That's amazing. You know, I remember going quite a long time without having that feeling on a Friday. Just feeling like the only reason I was stopping on Friday is because I was, like, dropping at the finish line. Not because I felt I was done or. And that's amazing. Uh, when we get good at metabolizing not only our thoughts, but our emotions, you just feel so much lighter. You feel like, I can go have these interesting experiences because I know I can metabolize them. I know that they're not going to create drag. Uh, and then just this natural sense of renewed energy. Like, no, no, this is good. I know how to go back and charge my batteries. I end the workday with enough gas left in the tank to really be present for my family and for my life and to enjoy my hobbies again and those sorts of things. So it's great for us. Us as, as workers. It's great for us as colleagues. It's great for us as family members and friends and community members. And ultimately it's. It's great for us as people. Um, you know, working on this for the last two or three years has just been such a meaningful, you know, part of my life. And now being able to have these conversations. And most people I talk to are just so far from that. They're just constantly running m Trying to keep their heads above water. It's probably more like a drowning metaphor. You know, they are treading water as hard as they can. And, uh, and who wants to feel like that? It's just awful.

Speaker A: Well, and. And you also do the reader a service where you basically built the book specifically so that it wouldn't add to anyone's thought load. It's small chunks. You can stop anytime. So let's point people to where they can find out more about you and the book and the work that you're doing and the quiz.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So thoughtload.com, we might as well make it easy. As you say, everything in the book was this idea of making the book buoyant. Like, how do I make it a life ring we can hang on to? So might as well make the URL easy to thoughtload.com um, and there's an assessment there that helps you figure out is your thought load coming more from the cognitive, the emotional, or the energy. And then there's the overwhelm assessment we talked about. So you can find it if you're a whirlwind or a stickler or a rogue Or a brooder. Um, and then there's. It takes you to Thought World, which is a community. It's all free, uh, with dozens and dozens of resources to help you put this into practice, to make your own life better, or if you're a manager, tools and scripts you can use to do this for your team. So Thought World is chock a block with tools that. That was what I. I felt was really important, is that we have to put things in people's hands that allow them to chip away at their thought load and everybody else's.

Speaker A: And let's call out the. The company name just because it's cool to see it and say it.

Speaker C: Oh, the. The three Cos. Yeah. So, um, our company comes from the mission statement, so we exist to transform the way people communicate, connect and contribute so they can achieve amazing things together. So the company's called 3 cosmos for that. Communicate, connect and contribute. So 3cos is us.

Speaker A: Awesome. Leanne, it's been great talking with you again. Uh, I'm kind of disappointed that it took this long, but I'm glad we did it and I'll be glad to have you back again in the future. So thank you so much for being here.

Speaker C: I would love to come back. It was so wonderful talking with Yarek.

Speaker A: Well, that's another podcast crossed off. You're listening to do list. I've been doing this for a while now, this show, and I don't think I've ever had a word for the thing Leanne just named. Not that my list is too long. It's everything that I'm carrying while I try to work it. And what stuck with me is that she doesn't hand you an anvil. The whole book is built to take weight off, not pile it on. And if you've ever been awake at night replying to a conversation that you just can't put down, you're putting it over and over, having that pretend conversation. Then this book is worth your time. Start with her quiz in the show notes and then go. Go and find the book. You can find it at BeyondTheToDolist.com that's where you'll find the show notes. Or you'll find them in whatever podcast app of preference you're listening to this in right now. And we talked about teams a bit. If you know of someone who is absorbing everybody else's load, they're the den mother of their team and they're the one who's always fine until they're not. This is that episode. Share it with them. Right right now from the show notes at beyond the to do list.com or that share button in your podcast app. Again, thank you for sharing. Thanks again for listening and I will see you next episode. M.

Speaker D: Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of the them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, Filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

Speaker E: When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines m moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.