EP # 3 Penn Lat: People-First Leadership Even in the Difficult Moments

Penny: The thing is you, I do have to understand what's going, what's happening in the head or at least in the environment of this person that's underperforming to understand what, what exactly this person needs. Is it, is it a skill issue? Is it a uh, the skill versus will issue? Like you know, but you just don't know how to do it or you just don't care. So if I don't know the entire story, at least have a window to the actual story, it's harder for me to help this person out. So that's people first to us is to understand the other person I mentioned before. Where we have different histories and different processes and the same exact situation can be interpreted differently because of that history or because of how we process things. So how I would say things might, you might interpret differently so that understanding of yes, we are all different and you or my people telling me what the entire story is so that we can, we know how to move forward. I think that's the uh, people first for us

Eli Harrell: here in the Philippines. We've built our workplaces on something deeply cultural. Deference, hierarchy. Don't challenge the person at the top of the room. And it made sense once. But the workforce walking into your offices today didn't get the memo and they're not interested in signing it. Human centric leadership isn't an option anymore. It's the most commercially intelligent decision you can make right now. This is Lead Human, a podcast for senior leaders and ah, anyone who wants to become one, who already sense that something needs to change and are ready to do something about it. My name is Eli Harrell and on this show I sit down with people who lead teams in the Philippines who want to build something different. Not just better businesses, but better ways of leading the people inside them. Better cultures and a better future of work. Alright, let's get into it. In this episode I sat down with Penny. She is the co CEO of Virtua Solutions. They are a remote staffing company that's been quietly doing something that most companies kind of wish they could keep people at.95% employee retention. Some team members are still around from 2014 and Penny I think has built something quite rare. A team that actually wants to stay. But what I loved the most was that Penny really gets honest about the moments that humbled her, including a hard lesson about communicating change to her team the wrong way. One that cost Virtua a client. That story alone I think is worth the listen. We go deep on what people first actually looks like. When performance is slipping and a client is frustrated, we talk about why slowing down isn't weakness, it's leadership. And we get into something. I think we don't talk about enough. Emotional regulation as a core leadership skill, not a wellness trend. A real practical requirement if you want to show up steady for your team. Penny also shares how she and her co founder Frances model the culture they want through humor, which I think is something I need to work on. And we get into something close to my heart. The deference culture in the Philippines and why it holds our leaders back and what it's going to take to move past it. Uh, if you lead people in the Philippines, this one is for you. I would really recommend listening through it. Penny is an amazing person and someone I'm very proud to call a friend who hope you enjoy it. Please let us know what you think. Penny, welcome. Thank you so much for being here on the lead Human podcast.

Penny: Happy to be here, Eli.

Eli Harrell: Looking forward to the conversation. So, um, as you know, like, we're here to talk about what we have learned in our journey of leadership and leading businesses, but most importantly, sort of the human skills side of it and as we learn how important that part is. So I'd love to, you know, just start with your origin story. I know a little bit of your background that you were broadcast com at up cold calling, customer support, eventually building virtua. So walk me through the moment when you realized you weren't just building a career, but that you're, you're like building a point of view about how teams should be led.

Penny: So you're right. Like I started as a freelancer, I was doing cold calling. And then I was hired as a, their first remote worker for a US based tech startup, a SaaS startup. I, I was their first remote worker, their 15 members. So it's really. This was really early days for a startup. And there was a time where I saw that no one was doing their support. I was actually hired as an executive assistant and I saw no one was doing their support. Actually it was a CTO that was answering their support tickets. So I told my boss, which was a COO back then, that I could take that on and the rest is history. I started their knowledge base, I started hiring all of the people here in the Philippines. And, and there was a time where we had this call with the coo and that I think was kind of a switch in a sense of how we presented ourselves to this. To us, um, based startup was. That's that call where we actually presented to the coo, what support could look like, like, uh, the channels that they could be doing, like chat, email, phone, how many people, the KPIs and everything, we actually presented that to the client. But what made these, this experience with them so special was that it was very different from all of the contracts that I've had or even the jobs that I've had before. And when I say it's special because instead of just being contractors or even being called contractors, we felt like we were actually part of the team. Even though we were miles away, like really, really miles away. We felt that we were part of the team, um, in that sometimes we even have meetings with a VP of product or someone in the product team where they actually ask us questions about what the customers were saying. They even presented what was going to be released. And we even had like, we gave our two cents. And that to us was very important and felt very empowering because miles away, but still as if we mattered. It was not like, okay, do this, do this. You know, it was not like really just task based. Um, and I think that also empowered us to really, you know, come forward and give suggestions. And it kind of evolved in a way where the, the founders, the founders kind of let go of the support arm, meaning they gave me free rein into what KPIs we were going to be tracking, what uh, workflows needed to be to be made or improved on, and even the automation inside of their ticketing system. And so just by being in that kind of environment and then also having, having so much fun with the team that we had there, that kind of gave me like, I think the, the baseline of how I wanted my team.

Eli Harrell: How you wanted to lead teams?

Penny: Yes, how I wanted to lead teams. Where, yes, there's always, there are going to be parts where you will be collaborating with everyone. But as a leader, sometimes you do have to make the final decision, but it doesn't necessarily mean that all of the ideas have to come from you. It can come from, from the intelligence of the team that you built.

Eli Harrell: Yeah, I love it that those, uh, people that you were working with back, back in those days extended trust to you that you've, you know, you felt trusted, you felt like you mattered, and they gradually handed you more and more until you were really running things. So great feeling when that happens to us. Right? The opposite of micromanaging. And so when, when did you, or how long have you been running your own company and leading your own teams?

Penny: Leading my own team. I started doing that 2014. But our company started in 2017. So our company's virtual solutions, we started in 2017. So we're going on nine years this year. So pretty, a pretty, pretty long time. And we built multiple teams for our clients at this point. And I think that Francis and I, Francis is my business partner, have always held to the belief that if we built the teams that we have right now with virtual, the way that our experience was in this US based tech startup, that everyone was going to stay and everyone's going to have a great time being part of the team. Which, you know what, to be completely honest, I still have some people who I worked with years ago, as early as 2014, still working with me in virtua. That's how long we've retained.

Eli Harrell: Yeah.

Penny: Um, actually last year I think we were at 95% retention rate in terms of employees. Yeah. So it was just like, it's a good feeling that people want to stay with us.

Eli Harrell: That is amazing. I know companies that are at almost that rate of turnover.

Penny: Yeah. Congrats.

Eli Harrell: That's awesome. Um, so let's talk about, you know, some of the bumps and bruises along the way because uh, you know, you, you experienced what great culture was like, uh, that you saw what that did for you. You wanted to build that for other people. And you've set out like, I guess I would love to hear like, what contrasting experiences have you had in the past and, and what challenges have you run into along the way as you've, you've tried to learn how to, how to lead that kind of a culture.

Penny: The thing with people and in leading humans is that everyone's very different. Everyone has come from different backgrounds and that we have different histories and we have different ways of processing things. So sometimes how I would phrase things and how I would think about things. So I'm very, uh, what do you. Logical, very systematic in a way. And other people will be more emotional. So sometimes when I explain things, I feel like the way that I am explaining it or communicating it is the right way to do it because that's how it will resonate with me. But then over the years I, there are bumps in the road where, okay, that's not the right way to do it. That's not the right way to communicate things. And I do remember this one time where I thought that um, you know, if I explain it in a business sense, like uh, what it would mean for the business, that the agents would understand it, but that's not really how you would position changes with employees. You will have to position it in Such a way, uh, in such a way where you look into why it matters to them rather than why it matters to you. So there was a time where I did a misstep on that, and it did kind of kind of escalated a little bit. Not a little bit. It really escalated a lot in the sense that we lost a client over it. Yeah, it was really heartbreaking for me. I'm still heartbroken over it, to be completely honest. Healing. Still healing on it. But, um, yeah, I think, you know, some lessons are going to be learned the hard way. So.

Eli Harrell: Yeah, that's usually the biggest lessons are. So what were the specific. What. What were the takeaways and the learnings from that one for you?

Penny: Yeah. Um, so the one thing that I also noticed myself is because you're leading all of the teams and you're leading all of the departments, sometimes you want the speed to be there, right? Like, you just want to get things sometimes. And. Yeah, so you just want to get things done. And so I forget to kind of really slow down and think about how. How to phrase things or how to communicate things in a much better way. So that's what I really learned. Just to slow down, think about how this would affect. Affect the other. The other side, and then communicate it that way rather than, no, this is my way or the highway like that. That can't happen anymore. The other thing that I learned is also just to emotionally regulate a lot

Eli Harrell: of things, which also means. Slowing down.

Penny: Yeah, slowing down. Um, like, I can't be in a call where I know I'm already anxious about the situation and be on a call and explain it to everyone. And knowing that I'm anxious about it because I feel like I also transfer that anxiousness to my team, where as a leader or as a CEO or co. CEO, you need to be the steady voice in the team, especially when there are setbacks. So I learned that I need to kind of regulate regular regulate separately a little bit, or at least with my business partner. And then when I'm feeling pretty much okay, or at least I've. I've kind of thought about how it would go about communicating to the team. That's when I actually, um, yeah. Talk to my team.

Eli Harrell: That is such an important topic that I think we don't talk about enough. Um, and, you know, we are humans, and we're in the world of work, which is very much driven, you know, by processes and systems. And I love what. I love the principle from Trust and Inspire. I don't know if you've read that book. But I, I love the. Just the simple concept that like, hey, we need to go fast with computers and machines and processes and systems, but with people, with humans, we. We have to slow down. And that's means with ourselves too. And we push ourselves sometimes, I think as leaders to keep, uh, going. And we're not paying enough attention to what's really going on inside. And if you do, there are consequences. So I love what you just said about the intentionality and the learning the skill of regulating your state, understanding how important that is. Tell me. You know, and this is something we do. A lot of our work is actually around. Around this. It's like helping people learn new methodologies of being aware of their own internal. You know, can you use somatic awareness to notice what's going on in your body so that you realize, like, yeah, I'm walking into this meeting in the wrong state. I gotta do something. Uh, so what are. What are some of the. No actual functional methods that you use to shift your state when you're about to go into a meeting and you know that you're. You're not, you know, it's not good if you go in just like this. What do you do? How do you regulate?

Penny: You know, just as simple as taking a breath, I think is really, really important because what I notice when I'm really stressed or I'm in a high pressure situation and I'm panicking, my. I do grit my teeth like I. And then my muscle tenses. I. You don't notice it right away until you make sure that you notice what's happening in your body. So I noticed that. So taking a deep breath or, uh, do you know that double breath and then exhale. So I do that too. But really taking a moment before diving in, that's helped me. I tried before box breaths. Yeah, I've also tried that, but, uh, it mostly revolves around the breath work. I've tried the meditation before where it's like 20 minutes of visualization and things like that, but I never stuck to it. I feel like it's because my personality is really like the speed thing is a personality of mine. So I don't know how I can stick to it. But I have tried like the breath work, which is a little bit of. Still more like mindfulness work. Right. In 5 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes. But I can't push past that. That's what I've tried so far.

Eli Harrell: Uh, different tools for different settings. I have done a lot of meditating in the past and have found what it did for me is it taught me to baseline and it increased my awareness of what calm really feels like. Because, like, what you just said is we can, we can be so unconscious of what's going on where we don't even realize how much we're tensing our m muscles, we're clenching our teeth, we're really tense, but we don't know it. And so just raise, you know, the longer meditation, I think practices can help us understand, increase our baseline awareness. But in the moment when you need to shift, that's not practical. You don't have 20 minutes. You can't do a, uh, you know, it's not, you're not gonna be able to do it. So I think, you know, breath work, changing your body posture, different, different things work for different people. And you have to experiment and learn what, you know, what works for you and based on the, based on the circumstances. So thank you for sharing. Those are, those are really great. And I think, you know, I think more, I want to see more leaders help other people, uh, make this normal. Like, we do meditation at the beginning of all of our meetings just because maybe it's weird for people at first, but it, it really shifts. It really teaches people, like, yeah, uh, we can't just go full logic into every meeting. We need to actually set our, set our. Because it's challenging. So. All right, I want to ask you, when you, when you say that virtua, uh, solutions is people first, what what does it actually look like? You know, like when somebody's underperforming and a client is frustrated? Like, walk me through the real practice, not the slogan. Like, how do you guys make it real? Tough question.

Penny: Well, as far as people first is concerned, I think the first thing that we actually do is just to understand what's really happening on that end of things. Right. Like sometimes when someone is underperforming, and to be completely honest, in my position right now, not everyone is going to be upfront with me anymore. Um, that something's happening with them. They're struggling with something. Of course, some of them won't really tell me that anymore and tell me the actual reason why. And so what we've, I think we've done before is that we find the people that our people also trust and see if they can support this person and see what's happening. Because I, I, I do understand the fact that if I slack you and tell you can have a meeting with you, you're just going to be on the defensive right away because I'm me, I'm the leader of the organization. But if you're talking to a peer, you're much more open. The thing is, I do have to understand what's going, what's happening in the head or at least in the environment of this person. That's underperforming to understand what exactly this person needs. Is it a skill issue? Is it the skill versus will issue? You know, but you just don't know how to do it, or you just don't care. So if I don't know the entire story, at least have a window to the actual story, it's harder for me to help this person out. So that's people first to us is to understand the other person I mentioned before, where we have different histories and different processes and the same exact situation can be interpreted differently because of that history or because of how we process things. So how I would say things might. You might interpret differently so that understanding of, yes, we are all different and you or my people telling me what the entire story is so that we can, we know how to move forward. I think that's the, uh, people first for us.

Eli Harrell: Love it. You mentioned that, uh, you know, the structure of the organization. Once you get to a certain size like you, you need to, obviously you need to have managers and leaders in the organization that have the direct relationships with people that need coaching. They've got that trust, they've got the rapport. What are some of the most important skills that your leaders need when it comes to that understanding? Right. Like, because asking people for their story doesn't always get you actual understanding of what's really going on with that human. So what are some of the skills that you try to, to build within your leaders so that they will be good at truly understanding what's going on with people before they start trying to help them solve something or improve it?

Penny: I think it's not. How do I say this? When Francis and I interact with our leaders, especially with their department leaders, they absolutely. It's not like, hey, do X, Y, Z. This is a lecture. This is a session of you how to lead. It's more of what we do day in and day out. When, or at least for every single meeting that we have with the department leads, where there are moments of laughter and there are moments of, hey, what happened during the weekend? That's actually how we kind of start things. Hey, what happened during the weekend? What are you up to? Even our quarterlys are more of the first parts. At least the first parts are not just the department wins, but also personal wins. So we also talk about those things, and it's more of a modeling type of situation for us.

Eli Harrell: I was gonna use that word if you didn't. Yes, modeling.

Penny: Yeah. Because there are going. There are times, though, where we look at a certain issue or, uh, we're discussing. And I think our people also know when we're, like, down to business. They know when we're joking around and we're keeping things light, but they know that our voice changes when we're like, this is business mode. And there will be mo. There are. There were moments where it's more, okay, this is a feedback. This is, I think, what you should consider or do. The tone of voice and also how we phrase things also differs when it comes to. Okay, take. Take what I'm saying seriously, not as a joke, but this is the exact feedback, and I want to see this happen the next time around. So for me, as far as instilling that skill to people, it's more of the modeling m. Rather than direct 1,

Eli Harrell: 2, 3, telling them how to do it.

Penny: But I do notice, like, not everyone will follow exactly what you tell them to do. And that's fine because we all have our strategies, techniques, tactics, what will work best for us. But the thing is, they do take a few things from it and then kind of put a spin of their own. Whatever the feedback is they do. Kind of as long as we get to the output or the quality of output that we need, then I'm okay.

Eli Harrell: I love it. There's a quote, like, children have never. Children have never been very good at doing what their elders tell them, but they've never failed to follow what they see. Something like that, um, I'm messing it up. But modeling is so much more powerful than telling. And it's. It's hard. It's really hard. Like, and I love how you guys have maintained. Um, it's. You know, it's very clear. I. I hear the data points that you prioritize connection. We do the same. I think it's really important, and it's easy to skip it because it. It doesn't always seem practical. It doesn't always seem critical. But I do think. Yeah, exactly. Right. But I think it's. It is critical. And I think we need to remember, yeah, we are. We are humans. We need to be connected. And it does not go well when we deprioritize that. And spending time at the beginning of meetings to know how people are really doing goes a long way when it's real. Taking time to really understand people and what's going on with them before you start trying to help them get better at something is. Is it has to be real, not tactical.

Penny: Mhm.

Eli Harrell: But I, But I love it. I think that's amazing. So it's great that you guys do that. You said now that you're in this, you know, now that the company's big enough and you're co. CEO and you feel like it's a, it's a bit, A bit less likely that people will be so forthcoming with you. Or maybe there's a little bit of distance, maybe that doesn't directly point to this, but I just, it made me think of, you know, hierarchy in, in the culture in the Philippines. And I'm curious how you address that. Do you guys kind of try to try to unlearn some of the cultural programming that, that people have by nature if they grow up in the Philippines?

Penny: I think how Francis and I interact with our people is very unhigh. I can't just pronounce the word horizontal. Uh, and that, yeah, it's because we really joke with everyone. Uh, it's our default. It's just our default to keep on joking and people do lighten up with us. But I do understand that not, uh, everyone is gonna lighten up. Telling this to everyone. I haven't met someone I haven't broken before. And when I say broken, not really bullied until they cry. It's more of I haven't gotten a joke out of from. Which means for me, we're good enough, our relationship is good enough, that you're okay telling me a joke, that you're okay kind of, you know, doing a little sass. And that's actually how I kind of see that. Okay, this person is comfortable enough with us now to be able to do that. Because some people will just let other. Everyone. Everyone else speak. Like they'll just let everyone speak. And there are going to be people in the team who can speak more than the others. But when that happens, and I hear an introvert, or what we call introverts in the team, make a joke or do some sass, uh, uh, a sassy comment to the other that's like, hey,

Eli Harrell: that's a big win.

Penny: Yeah, that's already a big win for me. So that's how I know I've kind of broken that person a little bit broken. But that's how it's done.

Eli Harrell: Now that I understand what it means, it makes me laugh. It's such a good reminder for me right now. I appreciate you bringing this up because I think this is, uh. I'm quite jealous of you if this is your nature, because it is not mine. And I have occasionally gotten into a. Into a habit or a mode of using humor, keeping the energy light, and I know how to do it, and it's been successful, but it's not my nature, and it's not. It's so easy for me to slip out of it. And Gladys, too. We both get really serious, and then the whole vibe around us, everyone else, we don't use humor enough, and it's not light. The energy's not light energy enough. And, uh, thank you for the reminder. I'm gonna go back to work on that. So I appreciate. I appreciate that you have that in your culture.

Penny: I have a friend who. Who. Who told me that as people who don't kind of use humor, a little bit more serious or reserved, I guess, is the. Is the more. Sometimes we feel like that small talk is not the nature. Like, it's. It's just not within our nature. Right. Because we want more deeper conversations. And you know what? Even those deeper conversations can still create the relationship. It's just very different. But. And for some people, that might work better. Not everyone can be broken by humor.

Eli Harrell: That is. That's my way of connecting, is deep conversations. And Gladys is the same. But humor, it's still. I think it's really useful, and it's really important in a team. Yeah. I just. Anyone out there who doesn't have that vibe happening, if you can figure out how to authentically lighten the energy, bring some humor as the senior leader, it does really change things. It's pretty amazing. Oh, thank you. I've seen it in glimpses. I just need to keep it. I need to find a way to sustain it. Um. Um. All right. I want to kind of zoom out a little bit and talk about the Philippines, because I, uh. I've lived here for 12 or 13 years. I set it as an objective now where I really want the Philippines to be known for leadership more than it is. Like, it's known for talent, you know, but it's not really known for leadership. I think most people nod when I say that. So, you know, what kind of leaders do you think Filipino teams need for the future? What are we, you know, what are we still importing from the West? That should stop, because we could be doing it here.

Penny: I think we're, uh, at least Filipinos. Most Filipinos still think that, you know, when you're of a different race, especially if you. If you're sorry to Say this even, but you're the color of your. Of your skin. Like you still are on a pedestal. Right? Like, um, and that you would have to be regarded or, um, you would have to bow, I guess, in a sense.

Eli Harrell: Yeah.

Penny: Respect.

Eli Harrell: Pedestal is exactly the right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's elevated.

Penny: It's, um, it's not. And, and the problem here is that it's not a conscious thing. It's a subconscious thing where, okay, it's a different place. Maybe we shouldn't talk to him. Um, and the problem also is that every single Filipino is also contributing to that, uh, type of like, okay, he's not. Then let's not talk to him. And everyone just gathers around and says the same thing. Right. I think the reason why Filipinos think about this not just because historically, I mean, 300 years of colonization of a different race and then repeatedly colonized by not only that, but also being exposed, I guess, in circles of, um, different nationalities, I feel like needs to also happen where everyone is treated the same. And I say this because I think in the past few years I've had the, uh, been lucky and I've had the honor of just being in rooms where it's just different races, like, uh, different nationalities. And they all live in the Philippines and they love the Philippines, and I see their love for the Philippines, and they treat me like the same. We're not very different from each other. In one of the webinars that I did in terms of communicating, so I did a webinar on how Filipino vas can communicate better with their clients. I told them that if you realize or if you think about it, we're all just humans. We're all just flesh, blood, we're all the same people. And if you get it out of your head that this person, whatever, however they look like, is just a person who has dreams, who has goals, who's just trying every single day to reach further goals. If you think of it that way, then you would know that, hey, this person just wants to be also seen, just wants to be valued, just wants to be talked to like a normal person. Just wants to also just joke around. And that's going to be also very different for Filipinos. So one being conscious of how we actually think about other nationalities when we see them, when we look at them and when we talk to them, to also exposing ourselves in that types of situation where we're talking to different natural and just really realizing that we're all humans, we're all the same. And it's.

Eli Harrell: Yeah, yeah, I Mean, interestingly, I think that growth experience, I think most people have to go through that no matter where you're from in one way or another. For example, I mean, I. I used to feel inferior or some deference or some separation from people in a high level position or very popular or, you know, famous people, whatever. I would feel insecure around them or uncomfortable or hesitant to go and talk to them. And I remember this conversation with a friend of mine who I, who I placed. I thought very highly of him. And I almost was, uh, you know, going to lunch with him was. I like, wow, you know, that this is somebody I really respect. He's very. He's very known, you know, socially, very influential. And I'm having lunch with him and he says. He said a few things to me that day that, that really kind of hit me. But one of them was, uh, you know, he is close friends with a lot of very, very, very wealthy, very successful, very known people. And he said, one of the things I've learned in life is nobody has all their shit together. Nobody. Nobody. You know, and it kind of stuck with me because no matter what room you're in with whoever they are, there's still value you can bring. There's still things, you know, they don't know. Like you said, we're all. We're all having kind of the same human experience. Whatever the gender, whatever the, whatever the nationality, those things are really worth thinking about, I think, for all of us. But to your point, the only way you ever really dissolve that programming is by experience. You have to do the. You just have to do the reps and the cycles with people you used to be uncomfortable around until you realize, like, oh, I'm just like them, not any different. And, um, yeah, I love what you just said about all that. I think it is critical. And the deference thing, that's very much, you know, it's more in this culture than it is in the one I came from. Do you think it's for sure? It's pronounced with people that are white, you know, people that are from the West. But what about people that just have titles here? Do you think it's. How much. Do you think it's pretty much the

Penny: same, or you think it's different as Filipino bosses? You mean for Filipinos, hierarchy is, um, I would say a little bit more important than in other cases or other countries. And the reason why I say that is when I was a freelancer, I've never called anyone boss or sir or ma'.

Eli Harrell: Am.

Penny: I call them by their first name. Like, even though the CEO, like, still the first name. In the Philippines, I. There was this one agent that we hired, and they kept calling the client sir or mom. And I was like, dude, you're already miles away. We already have a barrier in place because of the distance. Right. Don't add to it by calling someone sir and ma'. Am. And plus, it's not their culture to do that. It's very much a Pinoy thing where you call your boss. And mind you, some people still call me ma' am or still call me boss, and if it makes them comfortable, then. Okay. Uh, my thing is that whatever makes you comfortable, but I'm never gonna tell you to call me boss or madame.

Eli Harrell: Yeah.

Penny: I might joke that you can call me Her Royal Highness, But I've never told anyone that, hey, you should call me boss. And so in the Philippines, it's much more pronouns. Um, I don't know if it's because from the time that we were students, that's also how we call our teachers.

Eli Harrell: Yeah, it's just. I think it's just. It's just, again, modeling. You know, we grew up in a. You grew up in a place that. That's the way it is. That's what you learn, and. And it's respect, and it's wired in. Do you think that that's. Let's move on after this. But, yeah. Do you think that this is a little bit diminishing in Gen Z and kind of younger people who are growing up with so much more international exposure or still think it's the same?

Penny: It's going to be a learning curve for all generations, a learning curve for millennials or boomers, where we might not. Or the Gen Z or the Alpha might not even call them sir or ma' am anymore, depending on the culture of the company. Right. It really depends on the culture of the company still. So I was talking to my brother about this. My brother used to work for a bpo, like, way way back, probably more than a decade ago. I was. I was talking to him about this agent was calling everyone mom and sir, and he was like, really? You don't do that anymore? Because when he was in the bpo, he was taught like that. And I'm like, no, we don't do that anymore. So it is evolving. It will be a learning curve of the older generations, knowing that that might dissolve there.

Eli Harrell: We need that. We need to let go of it.

Penny: Yeah.

Eli Harrell: All right, so. So just, you know, in. In one or two sentences to put a cap on this topic. And give some people some suggestions, A What's your best argument for why we should try to make or build cultures that are a little bit. That are less hierarchical? And then what's a. What's a tip for individuals to head in that direction? Like, what do you think people can do and why. Why should they?

Penny: So when we. When. When I run a company or when I think about running your company, my first goal is to run a tight ship, and that means getting the best out of my people. Um, because I cannot do everything, actually. I actually need them to be their best. And if that means that, you know, removing the hierarchies and removing the, hey, I'm, um, the almighty boss and you need to do whatever I say and you need to call me, you know, um, just to make my ego, boost my ego. I really have to think about is that the best way to get the best out of your people. And there have had, like, several studies, right, about employee engagement, about, um, the one thing that I keep remembering is the Gallup one where if an employee is engaged, they're 14 to 18% more productive. Right. So if. If we have. We already know these studies exist, and if we think that being more involved, being more inclusive, you know, taking out that hierarchy helps the team out, helps the company out, helps everyone out to be more productive, then why are we keeping to these practices?

Eli Harrell: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's the main point in my mind is just that, you know, if we want leadership, you know, not everybody has a. Agreement on what that word means. We all have different ideas of what the. What the word leadership even means. But if the first idea that comes into your head when you hear the word leader is title, position, authority, based on that position, we're not very likely to be focused on growing people and, uh, helping them develop their potential and extending trust to them, a lot of times accidentally, we're enjoying being on the pedestal, you know, and that. That just. That dynamic doesn't grow people nearly as much is the biggest argument that I would make. But, yeah, I love it. Thank you. Um, all right, I want to ask, before we start to wrap up, I want to ask one more question about sort of, you know, culture and, um, in outsourcing and SaaS, companies, experiences that you've had when it comes to growing leaders, like you just said, you need. You need the best out of people. That as you want to try to see people, you want to multiply talent, you want people to step into their potential when it comes to supporting them in doing that. So learning and Development or leadership development, like growing people. What, what are some things that you would wish for? Like, what do you, what do you do that you love and what do you, what do you still wish for when it comes to the ability to grow people into their potential?

Penny: Um, I love that we do the modeling thing, um, and that we're upfront enough with our leaders or the people that we lead to tell them straight up what needs to happen or what we think they should consider, um, to better themselves. What we don't have yet, which we are gearing towards, is, um, every single person who's going to be a team lead or a, um, leader in the team will have, um, a leadership training that is built for MIC or for virtuous culture. So we have, our leaders have had like project, um, management de escalation training. Um, what do you call this? Even Six Sigma M. They've all undergone through that. But we haven't had the point where, okay, this is the culture. This is how we want to run teams. Meaning we want you to be more inclusive. We want you to get feedback from your team about the specific workflow, especially if that team member is the one doing that workflow instead of you just telling them what to do. Like, we want that type of leadership here in virtual, we're still gearing towards that, like building, like, what does that actually mean for Virtua? So that everyone knows that's how we want to work. And the reason why I want that to happen is that we, as I mentioned earlier, we came from different companies, different history, and you might have seen a leader that might act differently from what I want a leader to be. And if I put you in a team lead position, you might model that person instead of how I want my leaders to be.

Eli Harrell: Yes.

Penny: So I really, really want that training to be a little bit more specific or personalized for who Virtua is and how we want things run.

Eli Harrell: No, that's so important and kind of rarely done. You know, it's hard enough to create a culture where, or you know, create an organization where there's a lot of clarity around purpose and vision and the direction you're going and why you do what you're doing and how you treat your customers and the core values and the way you show up, but a very specific way of showing up as leaders. It does take quite a bit of work to get that to the point where not only is it clear, but that it's clearly communicated and then repeatedly practiced and that you can measure that that is a great goal. I Love it. Thank you for sharing. Let's wrap up with this question. What would you say one message for a leader listening tomorrow before they step into their day, what do you want them to carry with them to be better human centric leaders?

Penny: The number one thing that I would tell uh, other leaders is to understand themselves first, understand their emotions, understand how they could regulate those emotions, understand their triggers and everything. Because how you understand and manage yourself, it will lead out in how you will m. Manage others. So if you don't understand your complexities as a person, how would you understand that other people in your team have also have complexities and how you'll be able to communicate or even know if you're communicating clearly or you're using the right words. If you don't know, if you're not looking, you know how you communicate. So really self awareness is the top thing that I don't think like, because some people will be promoted as leaders without having gone through leadership training or looking into it. And it's, it's, it's a hard lesson to learn when you're a leader and knowing that how you manage yourself, how you just, you, it will affect how

Eli Harrell: you manage others, that inner work. I couldn't agree with you more and, and I couldn't say it more accurately uh, than what I, what you just said. I, I found that's one of the biggest lessons in life that I've learned is just that the amount of potential inner work that there is, is, is infinite and it pays off. The more you do it, the more it pays off. But it's so easy to go through life not realizing how much there is you haven't done. And um, succeeding in business up to a certain level is possible without very much of that at all. Which is why like we have these fundamental fundamentals of leadership programs that we run that we've built. And the first one is all about leading self and it's all about inner work. It's barely anything about leading teams because, and I exactly agree with what you just said. I don't think as humans we can really understand how humans work. The only way we can understand how humans work is by doing lots of deep paying attention and learning with the only human that we have direct access to is, is like you never, I never get to be in your experience. The only person's experience I can ever analyze is my own. And that's the only lens that we can look at other people and understand them better through. Um, um. Yeah, I, I totally love what you just said. I think that's really critical, and we'll definitely use that in the promotion of this episode because that's, for me, such a powerful thing. Penny, thank you so much for this conversation. I've, uh, enjoyed this conversation, and, uh, I really appreciate the way you lead. And, yeah, I would love to continue to have conversations about these things. Thanks.

Penny: Okay, thank you, Yi Lei. Thanks for having me.

Eli Harrell: All right, that's the conversation for today. And you know what? If something in there hit good, sit with it. The most expensive leadership insight is the one you agree with and never act on. If this felt worth your time, pass it on to one leader in your life who needs to hear it. That's how this conversation grows. Thank you again for being here. Would love to hear your comments on the conversation again. I'm Eli Harrell, and this is what leadership looks like when humans come first. See you next time.