Episode 177-Understanding Executive Functioning and Its Impact on Lawyers' Performance

You're listening to Counsel to Counsel, a podcast I launched in 2018. On this show, we explore how lawyers can build satisfying and successful professional lives. There have been enormous changes in the practice of law in the decades since I became a member of the bar. On the show, I bring you conversations with attorneys who have charted interesting career paths as the profession has evolved. I'll speak with consultants who are helping the legal community navigate these changes. We dive into strategies, mindsets and ideas that can help you grow your practice and grow in and out of our profession. And now, here's today's episode. Welcome back everybody. Just a reminder that if you're listening to Counsel to Counsel on one of the audio podcast platforms like Spotify or Apple Podcasts, you could also find us now on YouTube. If you're watching us on YouTube, it's nice to have you here. My guest today is Dr. Sarah Al Sadi, a psychologist, executive coach, and creator of the Brain and Mind Method, a coaching framework that integrates neuroscience and psychology to help high performing professionals better understand how their brains work and perform at their best. I first became aware of Sarah's work through a presentation she gave at the recent national association for Law Placement Annual education conference. Her program focused on executive functioning and the critical role skills such as planning, organization prioritization, emotional regulation, and sustained attention play in the success and well being of lawyers. Today we'll discuss what executive functioning is, how executive functioning challenges show up in legal practice, and what lawyers and legal employers can do to improve performance, productivity and resilience. Sarah, welcome to Counsel to Counsel. Thanks so much for joining me today. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation with you. Okay, Sarah, I usually like to start off with the guests telling the audience a little bit about their background. So can you tell us a little bit about your background? What led you to be a psychologist and then eventually an executive coach? Yeah, absolutely. So I graduated with a PhD in counseling and clinical psychology. So I did start my career as a psychologist and a lot of the research that I was doing at the time and the neuropsych training that I had sort of opened the door for me into the world of executive coaching and executive functioning coaching. And so now I'm a coach and consultant that specializes in executive functioning perfectionism, well being, among many other topics. So who are your clients and what services do you provide for them? Yeah, so at the moment, my clients can be organizations that are looking for specific training and content. So I often work with organizations to customize training for the year and content for their employees. My clients are also individual, high achieving, highly ambitious individuals who are looking to. Maybe they're fine. They're experiencing some kind of stuckness in their career, and they're looking to find motion again. And so they might be seeking out executive functioning coaching specifically, or just general coaching. Okay. And a subset of that is lawyers, right? Yes. Yeah. So over the. Over the last two and a half years, I began to specialize in working with lawyers and partners at law firms specifically. Okay. And even though I'm very familiar with some of these diagnoses, not as a psychologist, but as somebody who's kind of a student of human behavior lawyers, it was very interesting to me to learn and find out that lawyers actually have a high incidence of adhd. So can you say a little something about that? Yeah, there is some. Some literature that points to that. I think that for many of the clients that I work with, they are first learning about ADHD and specific learning differences through their kits. Right. So it's something that they didn't have access to when they were growing up, or maybe it was missed when they were in their elementary school years. But it's something that they've always noticed about themselves. They understand the struggle, but they're aware of it, but it never really had a name. They. And often they are learning about it through the experience of their children, where, you know, they might be getting a neuropsych assessment through their child's school. And, you know, in reviewing that, a lot of my clients will say, well, wow, like, a lot of this sounds like me, you know, and so I think there's an entire generation that is now sort of catching up and is beginning to understand the diversity of brains and really leaning into understanding their own brains as well. Okay. And I'm going to ask you in a second to define executive functioning, but maybe first let me just say that I think I told you this when we met at nelp, that I actually learned this about myself also from one of my children, was diagnosed quite a long time ago with executive functioning and adhd. And then over the years, I began to see patterns in my own thinking and in my own behavior that mimicked what my child was experiencing. But I've also come to the conclusion that it's not necessarily a negative. So can you. Before you define executive functioning, can you say something about that? Yeah. So, you know, I think that the first thing I'll say is in order to qualify for a specific learning difference. Right. And you'll notice that I'm using the Word learning difference, because the DSM and psychology as a field has sort of moved away from this disorder, language, towards learning difference because it really, truly captures what it is. So in order to meet criteria for a diagnosis of adhd, for example, you have to have average or above average iq. So at a baseline, we are not talking about, you know, intellect or ability. We are. We're talking about a specific way in which the brain has preferences to learn. So, you know, for example, with dyslexia, for example, it doesn't mean that that person can't learn to read. It means that the way that we teach kids to read in school, that one way that we teach everyone to read is not going to work for their brain. So, you know, there's a specialized program called Wilson or Oren Gillingham that approaches reading for children and adults who have dyslexia. And reading is possible. So it's really more about how we teach and how we learn and our. And understanding our own individual brain differences. Okay, so let's take a step back and look at this from a high level. So for listeners who may not be familiar with the term, what exactly is executive functioning? And why is it so important for lawyers? Okay, So I often think of. I like to describe the executive functions as like the CEO of your brain. So if you can imagine that there's a CEO sitting in that prefrontal cortex, and there are all of these skills that we access, and we need every single day to figure out what it is we need to do, how we're going to do it, and what we need to get it done. So this includes everything from organization, planning, prioritization, but it also includes things like working memory, cognitive flexibility, task initiation, metacognition. Right. So I call them, you know, different domains of executive functioning. And essentially, they are a set of skills that we're not born with, but we are born with the capacity to develop. And over the course of our life, sometimes we have a natural kind of innate skill towards some of these domains, and sometimes we don't. And sometimes a diagnosis like ADHD is going to affect the development of certain skills, like, for example, like sustained attention or impulse control. So if you think of executive functions, they are a set of skills that, you know, we tap into that help us organize, plan, and set goals. Would you say that executive functioning is something that affects all of us, regardless of a diagnosis? Yes, absolutely. And, you know, I think the best example I can give you, and it's a personal example, is I remember when I first had my son and I was just a couple weeks postpartum and I was experiencing so many breakdowns to my executive functions. And I, you know, I think that was a moment where it was so apparent that the ways that there are just so many different factors. And in that moment, the way that that experience for me was really impacting me and affecting my access to certain skills. So I was forgetting things I normally wouldn't forget. I was really struggling to feel motivated or to start certain tasks. I was feeling like my mind was. I just felt chaos. I felt like it was really hard for me to plan or organize. And these were things that I was in graduate school. I was in a Ph.D. program for seven years. I, you know, had developed these really strong organizational skills, and yet I was really struggling just to understand how to, you know, use the bottle warmer for my son, for example. So, you know, what I'll say is that ADHD and specific learning difference is one factor that can impact executive functions. But it's not the only mental health. You know, anxiety, depression can also impact our EF scaling skills. But also on a sociocultural level. I work with a lot of lawyers who, you know, might have experienced imposter syndrome or perfectionism or maybe experience microaggressions or bias. And all of these things impact the way that they view their identity. And even those cultural experiences can also cause breakdowns to our executive functions. What's the connection between microaggressions and executive functioning? I've never heard that those two put together. Yeah, that. I mean, that's a good question. It probably hasn't. I think I tend to talk about it a lot because I published on microaggressions and I see it in my coaching. So if you can imagine that, you know, experiencing subtle communications of bias can impact sense of belonging. Right. For anyone who has maybe one or more marginalized identity. Now, if you imagine that it's impacting sense of belonging, then they might experience experience a sense. It might impact their self efficacy, their belief in their ability to do things. It might affect their confidence. And when you affect things like self efficacy and confidence, it can cause you to forget things you normally wouldn't forget. So breakdowns and working memory. It can also make, for example, for a lot of my clients, I see a lot of perfectionism. So I need it to be perfect and, you know, in order to make sure that no one finds out that I truly don't belong here. Right. So they're sort of overcompensating for that fear of not belonging or appearing that they don't belong that they might perseverate on a single task and spend way too much time on it. So for example, I had a client who she used to call it the 90% done items. So it was essentially a long list of tasks that she could submit to the partner. They were 90% done, but she didn't. She would hold onto them because it always felt like there was one more thing she needed to do, and it would create this cycle of avoidance. Law school rewards intelligence, analysis and hard work. What changes when new lawyers enter practice that makes executive functioning so critical to success? So I think what I hear often when I am working with law firms, right, When I'm working on the organizational side is there's still a. And particularly when I'm working with partners as well, right. There's a still standard of excellence. There's a quality level that is expected, and there's always this kind of doubt or fear that if we talk about executive functioning, we make room for executive functioning in the conversation, that it. It's at odds with that quality or that level of excellence or even that ambition. And actually it is not. Right. It's these skills support our ability to produce, you know, work at the quality, quality at the level that we want to produce it at. When we ignore our executive functions and we ignore our individual brain differences, we sort of force ourselves to work in specific working styles that don't actually work for us. And so we're not actually getting the most out of people when we don't make room for executive functioning in the conversation. So it's showing a little bit of vulnerability to the people for whom you're doing work. And is that what you're saying? I don't know. It's. If it's vulnerability, I think it's normalizing the language around. You know, for example, when a partner says do X, Y, Z and this is how they do it, right. There's this kind of assumption that that's the only way to do it. So creating more room for, like, how does your brain process this information? Are you the kind of person that when you walk away from a meeting, you need to, you need to sit down with it and read it and process it before you can dive in, or are you the kind of person that needs to actually sit outside of the office and talk it through? Right. So we all have individual brain differences. And the more that we understand our preferences, the better that we can communicate to each other what we need and have better working relationships. I want to hear a little bit more about perfectionism and how lawyers can address this, because particularly in large law firm environments, which will not be everybody listening to this podcasts, but some will be. There's a very high standard for getting every T properly crossed and every eyed properly dotted. But not everything needs to have that standard. So what do you do? And does this come up in your conversations with the lawyers you're working with? How do you, how do you advise? How do you advise them or how do you coach them? Yeah, all of the time. Perfectionism is something I see very, very often with my clients and particularly when working with lawyers. And I think that, you know, that high standard, the no errors, the getting everything, you know, to, to a quality or a level is going to kind of exacerbate existing perfectionism if someone's already coming in with that perfectionism. So let me just for a moment, kind of distill and break down that perfectionism has, is actually so there's healthy ambition and then there is perfectionism, right? And the difference is that perfectionism is the striving for, for a standard that is never actually possible or you're ever actually going to reach. So it's an unrealistic standard. And that's. That is how the cycle of perfectionism kind of works, right? It starts with a really unrealistic standard and a striving for that standard despite knowing that it's not actually realistic or possible. And that what that does is it affects our motivation and it affects our satisfaction. Right? So you can imagine if you're running a race and every time you get close to the finish line, someone says, oh, actually it's another mile out. Maybe the first time, you can keep pushing yourself to the next mile, but when you reach there and someone says, actually it's another two miles out, right, eventually you lose the purpose, you lose the motivation, you lose the joy. So when we, the. The. The difference is with perfectionism, we're setting ourselves up to fail. And, and with healthy ambition, we're setting up goals that move us forward, move us towards growth, but actually set us up to succeed. Okay. All right. So in your now presentation, you also talked about missed deadlines, disorganization, losing track of assignments, and reacting to the moment instead of planning ahead. So how can lawyers address these issues and when are these issues symptoms of executive functioning challenges rather than simply being overworked? So being overworked and being stressed and experiencing burnout can cause executive functioning breakdown. So it can be one of the things that explains what's happening. But to answer your question, around what people can do. I think the first thing you want to do is develop your metacognitive ability. So metacognition is one of the domains of executive functioning and it's one of the harder ones to describe, but it's defined as thinking about your thinking. So it's almost like this self reflective ability. When you're working on an assignment, when you're thinking through a project, what are the questions that you prompt yourself with? Right? And how do those move you forward? That, that process is metacognition. So in order to make any kind of change in our life, we really have to start with our metacognitive abilities because we need to have better insight and awareness into ourselves and a better ability to self reflect. So the first thing that I always recommend, and I say this to everyone, everyone has a toolbox, right? You have a toolbox. I have a toolbox of tools that I use. You use to, to do what we need to do, to set up, to prepare for this interview, to set up for, you know, this podcast for, for everything that we do. So what I recommend is actually like bringing that toolbox to mind and you know, dumping it out on the desk in front of you and then sifting through it, right? And actually asking yourself like, oh, you know, I haven't used this since college, do I really still need it? You know, maybe it's not working as well in my professional life. And oh, here's this thing, I still use this, I can't imagine life without it. So I'm going to keep this in my toolbox. So it's about really looking inward and understanding what tools you already have and how they're supporting you and how they're not supporting you. So that's kind of where I would recommend starting. So with that metacognitive skill, skill of like self reflection and then looking at your tools to figure out what's working, what's not working, and then experimenting with some new tools and, and, and tools that you maybe never tried before, or maybe you tried before but you didn't give it enough time, but tools that are aimed specifically at where you feel the biggest challenges. So for example, if your biggest challenge is task initiation, which is basically like, you know, the ability to start our homework when our parents say to start our homework and delay something more gratifying, like playing with our friends outside, for, you know, my lawyer clients and adults, it can look like starting the brief that is very important and needs to be done by the end of the day and delaying something that feels productive, like clearing Your inbox. Right. It's not actually the task that you should prioritize, but sometimes we kind of get distracted and we do the things that feel productive. That's a task initiation challenge. So if you're noticing task initiation challenges, then you're going to want to think about what tools specifically you can use and you can add to your toolbox that help with task initiation. Similarly, you know, if it's working memory, if it's cognitive flexibility, you're going to think specifically about what domains where you, where, where you feel your biggest struggles and where you feel like your biggest strengths are, and then try to find tools that support those weaker areas. And you know, there are, there are several executive functioning self assessments. I can definitely, you know, guide people if they're, they're interested in learning more about that. Obviously, a neuropsych assessment is going to give you the most comprehensive view, but there are some self assessments that can give you some initial idea of what tools and what areas you might want to start supporting. First, can you say a little something about mindfulness or meditation? I use that as a technique for emotional regulation. And actually if you could say something about emotional regulation as well, I assume that's one of the potential items in the toolbox. In fact, I think I brought this up at your presentation. Can you say something about that? Yeah, absolutely. So if you think about executive functioning, there are all these domains that have, you know, support performance. Right. Our ability to do well in our work and not just in our work, also in our personal lives and in terms of any goals that we have. And then, you know, there are domains within executive functioning that also impact well being. Right. So something like emotion regulation. This is, you know, people think that having good emotion regulation is, you know, being able to not show emotions at work. And I always say, like, well, that's, that's not it because that's just not human. We're all going to have emotions at work. What emotion regulation actually is is an awareness of our emotions. So when you feel something, are you aware? Can you name specifically what that emotion that you're experiencing is? And then the second part of that is, do you have access to really good coping tools? So, so if you, if you, you know, are feeling emotionally dysregulated and you know, you're feeling overwhelmed, do you have access to good coping tools that help you regulate in the moment? Can you tie that to receiving feedback, handling stress, working under pressure? Yeah, so the, you know, receiving feedback, giving feedback, stress, you know, high demand, these are all things that we see in the context of law firms every single day. So emotion regulation is being tested every single moment when these things happen. So we, what we want to do is create more space for ourselves to process those emotions. So when we're feeling overwhelmed, to be able to specifically identify that we're feeling worried, you know, and that, you know, there's. There's a pressure that we're adding onto it because it's a specific partner that we really admire. Just really being able to tease apart from where what that emotion is about and then looking for tools that help us regulate. So sometimes it's as simple as, you know, I often work with my clients to create a coping toolbox. And they're in their desk drawer, right? So if you pull, if you pull my drawer out, I have scented lotion in there, right? I have different fidget toys. You know, there's these really great, like, sand, like sand, small desk sandboxes with like a rake that can feel really soothing. Mindfulness and meditation are wonderful, wonderful tools. So, you know, you can Simply go on YouTube and search like a guided meditation and take five minutes to do a guided meditation that's going to focus on your breathing. Because when we are stressed, when we're overwhelmed, the first thing we do is hold our breath, right? And we forget to breathe, the very thing that we actually need, right? So mindfulness and meditation can really help us to train our body to breathe deeply, which can help regulate our emotions. But the one thing that I'll say on mindfulness, which I think is super, super important because I hear this from my clients all the time, is, you know, oh, I tried it. It didn't work. And, you know, often I'll say, okay, well, like, how many times did you try? And they're like, oh, like two times. And I'm like, well, the muscle's not there, right? It's kind of like, you know, if you're working out and you're trying to build a muscle and you're expecting that muscle to, to help support you in a moment of crisis, but you haven't spent the time or energy building that muscle, it's not going to work, right? But if you spend the time building that muscle towards mindfulness in a moment of crisis, in a moment when you actually need the tool, it is going to work. But it takes time. And I remember, even for myself as a psychologist who was training to teach mindfulness, I struggled. I really struggled. So I just share that, to kind of normalize that experience and say that it's a muscle that you need to invest in, in and build. Just squeezing my stress ball. There you go. I love the desk tools, box breathing. You know, I really like box breathing. Can you explain what box breathing is? Yeah. So there are different types of breathing techniques. Box breathing is one of them, and it uses visualization. So it's this idea that, you know, there, if you're, if you're drawing a box, you can even trace the box on your lap, on your leg, or on the desk. But the idea is that, you know, one line up, you're breathing in for another, you know, a few counts, you're holding your breath and then you're breathing out. So sometimes there you go. Yep. And you always want to breathe in from your nose, hold it, and then out from your mouth and even letting out a loud sigh the way that you did, which was perfect. I made some swag with, with box breathing on it, and it says, yeah, secular attorney coaching for moments when box breathing just isn't enough. I love that. That's amazing. Yeah. Any other tools in the toolbox? I know there's a very large toolbox that one can have. Oh, I will say, actually, I just wanted to add something that I made this connection for the first time just hearing you talk, which is that you said you have to give it time to work. And isn't it analogous to some medications that you take? You have to take them for a while before they work. Yes, that is true. That is true. I see that a lot. You know, when someone's starting a new medication, when they're like, I don't feel different or it doesn't feel good, and it really does take time before your body can adjust. Right. So anyway, I interrupted myself, but any, any other tools that, that you want to mention? Now I know that there's a long list. There are so many tools. So I honestly, I think that it, it's helpful to think about what specific domain you want to build up and then researching tools that support that area. So, you know, for example, we're thinking about sequencing and planning. You know, planning is our ability to break a task into smaller steps. So one of the ways that we do that is by actually forcing ourselves when we're making our to do list to not write that to do list in terms of like, oh, here are all my to do's. It's like, go back and think about the order and the sequence of that task. Now make each of those steps an individual task. So you're, you're approaching each. You're. You're actually breaking it down. And now you're approaching each task and setting yourself up for a more realistic day because it's including everything that's involved. You know, sometimes someone will say, oh, I have like five things that I need to take care of today. When I break it down with them, it turns into 32, you know, and, and I see that a lot with lawyers. So within one big task, there are often a bunch of smaller items. And if you can break them down, that's a really excellent tool that helps with planning and sequencing. We're getting near the end here. I do have a few more questions, one about supervising. So what happens if you're supervising others and you kind of sense that, that those individuals, paralegals, more junior lawyers, are struggling with some of these issues? What are some of the things that you can do? Yeah, it's a good question. I think the instinct for a lot of supervisors, and I say this because I work with a lot of partners who ask me similar questions, but the instinct is often to share what worked for you, right? Like, oh, this is how I did it and this is what worked for me. And it's not that that's a bad thing. I think that that often actually really works. And. But what I would add to it is just creating space to add more coaching questions, right? So like approaching it as a coach would, and instead of sort of saying like, here's how I do it, it's sort of saying like, what do you think? And how, how would you, you know, like. Because the belief in coaching is that the answers are within our client and our job as the coach is to ask really good questions and help them arrive at those answers that are truly internally within them. So, so if the supervisor approaches it in the same way that the associate that they're supporting has the answers within them, that they're more of a guide, right? And saying like, hey, this is how I've done it. But what makes sense for you? How would you reorder this? What part of this do you think would work? What part do you think wouldn't work and how would you change it? You know, I think could be really helpful in terms of having more conversation. The other thing that I think I see a lot of firms do is incorporating and offering executive functioning coaching as a resource. Because it's in that one on one environment. It can create a really safe space for people to one really unpack what's working, what's not working, dump their toolbox as I was sharing, and actually experiment with new tools and have an Accountability partner. You just answered my last three questions. There we go. Perfect. Perfect. All right, so how might somebody work with you, for example? Can you just say a little bit more about that as we're. As we're getting near the end here? Yeah. So I have a website. It's saralsadie consulting. Com. You can reach out to me there. You can also reach out to me directly at Dr. Dr. Sarah elsadiemail. Com. I do coaching. I do consulting. I think my favorite thing is when someone, you know, comes to me and says, let's customize a program for a specific group, because I love to, um, I'm a researcher at heart, so I love to send out surveys and really understand what people need and then customize the content to meet them where they need it. All right, so definitely reach out to Sarah. And can you spell your last name just so that people can find you? Yeah. So Sarah S A R, A H. And then my last name is A L, S A I, D, I. Okay, great. All right, so here's the last question that I ask all my guests. What's one movie, streaming television series or podcast that you would recommend? And this is something for entertainment purposes. So a movie that I absolutely love and think about randomly. It's actually a sad movie. It's actually a very emotional movie, but it's called the Lost Daughter, and it's based on a novel, and it follows a college professor who goes on this solo summer vacation, I believe, in Greece. But it is a beautiful story around what can happen when we don't process our emotions, when emotion regulation starts to break down, and how that can kind of spill over and manifest later on in life and just the complicated emotions and nuances of human emotion, it captures it really beautifully. So I highly recommend. If you haven't seen it yet. Okay, I'm adding that to my list, and you have to tell me what you think. It's intense, but it's good. Okay. I like intense sad movies. Emotional crying, I was told, promotes weight loss. Amazing. It's also a really great release and can strengthen our emotion regulation. Sarah, this has been a great conversation. Do you have any final takeaways if somebody is thinking that they may be dealing with these issues, they're not sure what to do. I think I would just say to anyone who is sort of thinking about these challenges and is feeling sort of stuck. Stuck. That it's not hopeless. You know, I think a lot of people think, well, I've always been this way. And something I hear often is like, oh, I'm just a procrastinator, right? So we, we assign these labels to ourselves. And you know, I will say executive functioning is not a diagnosis or something that can't be changed. It is actually a set of skills that can develop, can grow, can be improved. And I see that every single time when you find the right tools and you see changes, right? So I think just to remember that there anything can change at any point and with the and with a deeper understanding of your brain, there's so much to unlock. Okay, great. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please tell others and rate us on itunes or your favorite podcast app and share it with someone who you think might be interested. And if you're watching on YouTube, please hit the subscribe button. It will help others find us. If you'd like to continue the conversation, I welcome your inquiries and invite you to set up a time to speak with me about your own career or marketing concerns. I've been coaching lawyers for almost 30 years and I'm happy to do a free 30 minute consultation. You can sign up on my website@sechler.com on my website you could also find links to more episodes of Counsel to Counsel and get access to many free career, marketing and leadership resources. In the meantime, thanks for listening.