Episode 178-Becoming a Legal Recruiter: Navigating an Alternative Legal Career with Matt Miller

Speaker A: You're listening to Counsel to Counsel, a podcast I launched in 2018. On this show, we explore how lawyers can build satisfying and successful professional lives. There have been enormous changes in the practice of law in the decades since I became a member of the bar. On the show, I bring you conversations with attorneys who have charted interesting career paths as the profession has evolved. I'll speak with consultants who are helping the legal community navigate these changes. We dive into strategies, mindsets and ideas that, ah, can help you grow your practice and grow in and out of our profession. And now, here's today's episode. Welcome back everybody. Just a reminder that if you are listening to Counsel to Counsel on one of the audio podcast platforms like Spotify or Apple Podcasts, you can also find us now on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, it's nice to have you here. Many lawyers spend years trying to determine whether they are on the right career path. Some leave practice entirely. Others reinvent themselves while staying connected to the profession. And many discover that a legal career can open doors they never anticipated when they entered law school. My guest today is Matt Miller, a lawyer, entrepreneur, recruiter and legal industry innovator whose career has taken him through big law boutique practice, law firm partnership, and an in house role as general counsel. Along the way, he founded a legal recruiting firm and more recently launched an AI powered job search platform designed to help lawyers navigate their careers more effectively. In this episode, we'll discuss Matt's, uh, unconventional journey from practicing lawyer to what he describes as an accidental tourist in legal recruiting. We'll explore why he doesn't subscribe to the familiar recovering lawyer narrative, what he has learned from observing thousands of legal careers, the surprising value of a legal education, and how, uh, our priorities, definitions of success and career choices often evolve over time. We'll also talk about entrepreneurship, the idea of a portfolio career, and why autonomy and control over one's time can become increasingly important as we move through different stages of our professional lives. And Matt also happens to be a client of mine. Matt, welcome to Counsel to Counsel.

Speaker B: Yep. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Speaker A: You've had one of the more interesting and unconventional career paths of anyone I've interviewed before we get into recruiting, entrepreneurship, uh, and some of the bigger themes we'll discuss today. I'd love to start at the beginning. Can you quickly walk us through your career journey from deciding to become a lawyer through private practice, partnership, your time as general counsel, and ultimately how you found yourself becoming what you've called an accidental tourist in the world of legal Recruiting, sure.

Speaker B: It's certainly been an unconventional journey. Uh, interesting I guess, would be in the eyes of the beholder and the listener in this case. So I went to law school in the 90s, so pre Internet era. And then I started. I did well in law school and really found myself in law school enjoying the advocacy. And I as a member of the national championship trial team back in 1996. And that sort of shaped what I wanted to be as a lawyer at that time. I started in big law, went to general block, um, where I did my initial foundational training here in Chicago and at that time in my career. And I'll be brief as I go through the rest of the history from there to here. But at that time I wanted to be doing more than you were able to do in big law. And so I left and went to a smaller firm where I wanted to do more, try more cases, be more on my feet, have more direct client contact. And I did all that, tried a lot of cases, began to develop business. And that led to a few different stops in my journey. I had my own firm, M. I merged in with a regional firm where I became partner. Um, I had my own firm again after that for some period of time. And then I ended up going in house with a client. I was representing Groupon at the time. This was years ago, before their ipo, back when Groupon was the fastest growing company of time. And I went in house as deputy general counsel there. Started as responsible for litigation on a global basis, expanded to other aspects of work, eventually moved overseas, lived in Europe for a year working in international legal. From there I landed a few general counsel jobs with different companies, three different companies. And when that all ended a few years ago, my last in house job, I realized I don't want to be in house. This is not the path that I, that I wanted to take at that time. But I didn't quite know what I wanted, so I stepped back from practice. I focused on a startup I had, which is called Jho Low, which is focused not just on legal recruiting, but it's, uh, essentially a dating app for job search, which we can talk about later. More what that is. It's a really cool app that's still very much in beta, but very unique and I think very powerful for job seekers. And then, um, eventually found myself, uh, talking to a legal recruiter who said, why don't you try legal recruiting? As I was trying to figure out what to do. Meanwhile, I've maintained a practice. Along the way, I've represented some Commercial clients, some personal injury clients. I currently am defending a defamation case here, um, in the Northern District of Illinois. But rather than launching straight into practice, a recruiter had suggested, why not try recruiting? So I started doing that, um, and I've been doing that now for about a year and a half, the past year with my own company called Ascent Council, helping partners and associates with their careers. Because I've done a lot of different things. Some good choices, some choices that maybe weren't as good, some things I might do differently, some things not. And that helps me advise people along the way. And I'm working with people all around the country, and actually a few international deals have, uh, come my way. And those are fun to work on too. So that's the unconventional path that you cannot script when you go to law school and say, this is what I want to do. Some of it was just pursuing opportunities as they arose, and somewhere one opportunity led to another, and I would, and I followed the path.

Speaker A: A lot of the lawyers I speak to are very interested in going in house. So what are some of the things that you liked about going in house and what were the things that were a little more challenging?

Speaker B: Yeah, a lot of people I meet and what I do now say they want to go in house. And I think in house can be great, but I also think it can be. Be problematic for a lot of people. And also a lot of it depends on timing. Uh, in house used to be seen as you go in house because the life is easier and maybe the hours are easier and more predictable. And that's no longer as true in a lot of in house jobs. The hours can be more. And the work might be less interesting to some people. Depending on the sort of company you choose to go in house, you might be doing a lot of repetitive work, not a lot of thinking, feeling like you're not even really a lawyer. Maybe you're not appreciated in house in some places. So I think you really have to be careful in going in house. And, and the timing can matter. If you go too early, that can be problematic because you may not like it. Or you might find yourself in a riff, which is a, you know, popular corporate strategy these days. Everybody's, you know, um, every, every quarter to me, numbers companies will let people go, including the legal department. And if you go in house too early, you might find yourself having a real hard time going back to practice because you don't have enough experience or you haven't done enough. So, you know, I don't think it's the answer to everyone's problems. For some people, it's a great path and there are a lot of reasons they want to do it. They're more business minded. They want to work together with business people solving one company's issues and building something. And so they want that experience or they don't want the billable hour. And so, you know, one way to not have a billable hour is to go in house. So there are perfectly valid reasons, but I think it requires more thought and consideration than people give it. For me, the opportunity to go, ah, with Groupon, run litigation for a pre IPO tech company in Chicago. That does not happen very often. Um, in house wasn't on my mind at all. But you know, I was representing this client. That opportunity came up, it seemed unique and I figured I'd pursue it and I really enjoyed it, you know. You know, maybe I might have stayed in it a little bit too long in hindsight. Like maybe I stayed in house a little bit too long and pursued some in house opportunities that didn't fit me, uh, along the way. You know, they weren't all the right fit. Um, but those are lessons I've learned and lessons I use when I talk with other people about what they want to do in house. Asking the whys and what do you expect and what are your goals? So that's my answer to the in house, it can be great. It can also be not great. It can open doors and close others. And you really have to think about it before you make that move.

Speaker A: Okay. A lot of the lawyers that I speak to are interested in going in house, and some of them want to leave the practice of law altogether. And I do meet a lot of lawyers who have left the practice of law and they are doing things like recruiting or some other function that a lawyer might need help with, and their clients are lawyers or law firms. And the term that people seem to use, not infrequently, which I really don't like, and we've talked about this, is recovering lawyer. So why do you think your perspective is different than the typical recovering lawyer narrative?

Speaker B: Well, it's, uh, a great question. My perspective is different. I don't like the term either recovering lawyer because I think the law is a great career for people, uh, uh, and people should pursue it who have interest in it. And I don't even know that I've left the law.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: We'll talk about this probably a little bit later. I do still a little bit of practice, but being a legal recruiter as a lawyer, you're still in the law. You're just not in the courtroom or you're not in the deal room, but you're still practicing in the legal industry in a different way. So that's part of it. But even for people who didn't like practicing, and I enjoyed practicing, I never didn't enjoy it. I enjoyed practicing. There are parts that you, you don't like. Of course, that's true of any job, but I enjoyed it. But for people who don't enjoy, uh, to me, it's too broad of a net to be a recovering lawyer because that suggests that it's a bad thing to be. Which, you know, for people rising up in their careers, um, I just think that's the wrong message to send. Maybe it was the wrong career for somebody, um, and so they're out of it. But it just seems too pejorative to me, you know, too, too strong of language, you know, m not. I'm not practicing actively full time right now. That's true. But I'm still a lawyer, and I'm doing a different thing in the law than when I started. That's how I see it. Right. So I'm still. I'm legal adjacent, I guess. And you don't have to be a lawyer to legal recruit. I, um, think it's an advantage. I think that you should work with a legal recruiter who was a lawyer. That's just my bias. So I don't know how to answer, uh, that more succinctly. It's just that I'm still a lawyer. I think that people who are lawyers not practicing but still working, are still lawyers and, uh, not recovering because, uh, I am one. I'm just not practicing.

Speaker A: Right. And I would just add that the reason why it bothers me is that if your clients are lawyers, why would you tell them, I'm so glad I'm not you. It just doesn't feel like a positive message.

Speaker B: No. And I see some recruiters going even further and really kind of bashing the law. Like, why would anybody want to work like this? Why would anybody want to do that? And, like, why would you want to work with a recruiter who doesn't like what you do? They're clearly then just moving you around the table for a fee. And I like it. I like the practice of law. I really like working with lawyers. I respect lawyers. And if somebody wants change, I want them to help find change that will be really good for them, uh, where they'll be happy and fulfilled and thrive and be able to build their practice and be happier than where they are in their current firm, not move them around and also dislike what they do. I just don't know. I don't know how those things go together. But you see it a lot. So I agree with you on that completely. Like, it just. Why would you say that and then still be in the business?

Speaker A: I do want to say out of respect for people that are in the recruiting business who are not lawyers, that they do bring other things to the table as well. But I do think that. And one of the reasons I wanted to, uh, interview you is that you bring such richness. You have like all the components of a legal career and you bring such value. Having been in private practice, having been in house, having had your own firm, and having been an entrepreneur, I just feel. I felt like you have a really interesting perspective.

Speaker B: Yeah, And Steve, if I can jump in on that too. Look, like I said, I think it's an advantage to be a lawyer in legal recruiting, but I know there are many that are not lawyers who do great, do really good work. So I'm not trying to besmirch that in any way. I think it's an advantage to be a lawyer. Um, and obviously I have an interest in saying that, but I also see plenty of very successful, very talented legal recruiters who are not lawyers.

Speaker A: Yes, and I didn't think you were saying that. Okay, so how much of your career would you say was intentional and how much was simply responding to opportunity and circumstances as they arose?

Speaker B: That is a question that I ask myself a lot these days because the years go by so fast. And it's also something I talk with associates about when I work with them. Right. When I'm 55 now and 25 seems like yesterday, but when I was 25, 55 seemed like forever away. Right. So how much was intentional versus not, you know, I would have to say too much of it was not intentional, uh, um, that are following opportunities. Now that's intentional to an extent. Right. You see an opportunity, you pursue it because the opportunity seems valuable and useful. But I don't think I was at the time spending enough time thinking about the long term view the compounding effect of a choice that you may have in your career. So, um, obviously very intentional to go to the general block when I started and, you know, going through OCI and that whole process and working hard to do well in law school. All very intentional, you know, each. So each choice was intentional in some ways, but mostly, mostly opportunity driven and not necessarily thinking about the whole compounding effect of each choice. And that's something I bring to the work I do now when I talk with people. What is their goal? Not just right now.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Having the conversations about what you trying to get away from, but also, and maybe more importantly, what are you trying to run to. Right. What do you want to achieve? You really gotta be asking those questions along the way. So it's really hard question to say how much was intentional versus just sort of happenstance. Nothing was happening. Every choice was made. I'm not sure. All the choices I was making were with full information and full view of the long term and the compounding effects of things we choose to do and how one choice might open other opportunities while closing other opportunities.

Speaker A: I think there's tremendous serendipity in everyone's career unless you just pick one path and stick with it. Opportunity comes along. And I also like to tell my clients that, you know, a lot of success in life does come from luck. That includes the family that you were born into. But you gotta be good, you gotta work hard and you gotta look for opportunity and be open to it. And clearly you've done that your whole career.

Speaker B: Yeah. So many things are luck and circumstances beyond our control. I'll give you an example from my career. Um, you know, going to Groupon at the time when I went was a great choice. I think it was a great company, great opportunity and also, like I said, a little bit of a unicorn opportunity in Chicago. And you know, everybody knows what happened with Groupon as a public company. Right. It didn't continue its upward ascent. Right. It wasn't one of those. Now that's, that's, that's luck. Right. You can't control that. You go in house with a, uh, with a fast growing company, you're certainly hoping it's going to continue riding that way and you'll build value, you'll, your equity will grow, you'll, you'll build profile. Turned out that it went the other way. Nothing I could do about that. Nothing anybody could do about that. Right. That's just that, that's just sort of luck.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: A lot of things we choose, you can make great choices. They may not work out. You can make a choice that's questionable. That works out fantastic.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: I mean, so, so yes, there's not. You don't often have control. Even if you just stay in one place and say, you know what? I'm going to place 30 years, I'm going to do that. Maybe your, your law firm merges, maybe you aren't producing and you end up being unhappy and you can't really rise up or you're not, you're not compensated for the value that you think you bring. So we make choices and our choices are informed the best they can be. But there's so much luck involved. I agree with that completely. There's just a lot beyond our control.

Speaker A: Can you say something about the importance of relationships throughout your career?

Speaker B: Relationships for me have been incredibly important. And something that I think I've been pretty good at is building relationships and networking. You know that that's how I built clients. When I was in private practice, you know, I would rely on either referrals or build relationships with people in businesses. And then when I, when I would pursue new opportunities when I was in house, one opportunity to the next would often be through relationship, through networking. Um, and even now in recruiting, you know, I'm a baby recruiter, but I'm getting referrals and I get those from relationships built over years. Because while I may have done different things along the way, everything I did was always, at least I tried to make sure everything I did was always at the highest levels and with high integrity and being a good person. Right. So that those relationships come back. Uh, I got an email yesterday from somebody I haven't talked to in a decade or more, who I worked with, with a referral for, somebody looking for a new opportunity. And so, you know, we plant our seeds along the way and the relationships really do matter. The legal community is big, but also small. And in Chicago, I like to think of it as the biggest small town in the world. Everybody's really seems like everybody's connected. So relationships are incredibly powerful and can help you grow your business, grow your practice, find your opportunities.

Speaker A: What do you think are some of the biggest career mistakes that lawyers make?

Speaker B: I think the biggest one is that lawyers don't think about their career a lot and in part because they're so busy. Right. So it'll be, you know, head down, do the work, somebody has told you what your goal should be, you should make partner at this firm. Right. And so you adopt that as your goal without thinking about it and without looking ahead at, well, do I want to be partner at this firm? What does that mean and what does that look like? And then once I'm partner, how do I continue to succeed? Because that's obviously not the end. Partner comes at what, years, 8 to 10? And you have a 30 year career or more, probably more. And so you still have to do things to succeed. So what does that look like, and this is very timely, just yesterday I read an article about, uh, how in law firms, 10 to 30% of partners are facing pay cuts, compression on compensation, um, because, you know, the fueling of higher profits per partner and those big numbers we all read about that the people at the top are making. Funding's gotta come from somewhere. Where it comes from is partners who are at firms who don't bring the same value, Maybe they're good lawyers, but they don't bring business and they're never going to bring business. And they probably don't have a lot of opportunities for making a lateral movement that happens. Because I think lawyers, too often the biggest mistake I see is they don't think about their career. They don't think about, okay, I'm in year four or five, so, um, I'm getting to that point where I really got to think about partners. Should it be here, should it be somewhere else? They don't want to talk to a recruiter because they're is annoyed by recruiters. And so they don't take those calls. And so they miss out on valuable information about other opportunities. What it might be different to be partnered at a different firm, how that might help them grow, how that might be better for the relationships they have or the practice that they do. Um, so that's the biggest mistake. And then related to that would be, I see lawyers trying to make a change too late, they're too far along in their career. And the law can be punishing, especially in big law Practice or your AmLaw200, it can be punishing. And what do I mean by that? I mean, you might have the best of credentials and be a fantastic lawyer, but if you're at a certain level and you don't have any business, it's going to be really hard for you to make a change. And that seems unfair, and it is unfair. Um, but those are the rules of the road and you got to be aware of that. So you got to think about your career and you got to think about it at the right time. I think those are mistakes. And there's the prestige mistake too, where some people will get stuck with, well, my firm is fancy, and if I go to this less fancy firm, will I be a less fancy lawyer? And one thing, you know, as you get older is nobody cares about that. Nobody's paying attention to you. Nobody cares how fancy your firm is. And we can get stuck on that. So. And then also I think people make some of the same, uh, mistakes that I made. If, if they're Mistakes, which is you gotta think about the compounding effect of every choice you're making. And because your career is long and those 30 years will go fast. And so you got to think about. You got to think about your career, you got to think about it at the right time, and you got to think about it with not just the short term view, but also the long term view. And what do you want to accomplish? And what do you want to accomplish in all aspects? What do you want to accomplish professionally? And also, although we're not supposed to talk about it, right. What do you want to earn? What kind of wealth do you want to build?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, it's impolite to talk about that stuff, but we should. People want to earn a living, they want to make money. Maybe some people want to make as much as possible. And nothing wrong with saying that out uh, loud. And if you're working with a recruiter, telling your recruiter that that's your goal, no judgment, know your goals, know what you're about, and make decisions that get you towards that goal.

Speaker A: Can you say a little something about maybe how you gained more perspective, who you spoke to, what advice you would give to anyone listening about who they should be speaking to?

Speaker B: Yeah, great question. I was actually thinking about this, getting ready for this interview, um, because everybody talks about having mentors, right? You got to have mentors. And to be honest, I'm not exactly sure what that means. And maybe I'm m just more informal by nature, but I think you ought to just find people you trust in, whose opinions you value, who have, um, had more experience than you. And talking to them honestly and openly, like a little vulnerability really does help. And for lawyers, that's hard, right? Lawyers don't like to be vulnerable. We don't like to show weakness. But being vulnerable with people whose opinions you trust and offering to take them out for coffee or meet them for lunch, and talking about your concerns honestly and your goals honestly. I think that that's incredibly important. So I don't know that you need formal mentors because again, I don't even know what that means or looks like. You just need people you trust who will give you honest advice and who will also hear you honestly. Because I've also read into people who got advice and listening to it and thinking the advice you got doesn't sound like advice for you. It sounds like advice from the person who was giving it to you of what they would do. Which again, comes back to being open and honest about what your own goals are, um, and being Vulnerable enough to tell your advisors, the people you trust, your sort of kitchen cabinet, if you will, of people who you want to listen to. You got to be willing to be vulnerable. If you think you made a mistake, say so, and how do I correct this and ask for help? You know, it's hard for people to ask for help. It's double hard for lawyers to ask for help. So, uh, that's how I'd answer that. You just got to find people you trust and respect. Find people who are doing something that you want to do, whether that's a partner in your firm, a partner in another firm, a um, lawyer somewhere else. Reach out to those people, find out how they did it, and, you know, learn from other people's journeys.

Speaker A: And I'm going to put in a public service announcement for coaching as well, if you're really feeling stuck.

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, look, I think, uh, that's how we got together. And for me, you know, it was a little later in my career and I, you know, I certainly suffered from the lawyer trap of I don't want to ask for help. Right. Like, you know, you're a proud lawyer, you don't need help. High achiever. Um, but yes, coaches are helpful for people. And again, that sort of means you got to be vulnerable. You got to be willing to take down that facade of I don't need help. We all need help. And coaches are great for that. And they're neutral.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And they can help you think through your process, your struggles, your decisions. So, yes, uh, the self promotional plug is worth it. It's worth it. People should seek it out.

Speaker A: I will say also that I've had coaching several times in my career. Right now I'm part of a, uh, peer coaching group. And it's extremely helpful because as one of my coaching friends said, you can't read the label from inside the jar. Right, Right. And you don't have to hire a coach. I mean, there's lots of people in your life that can give you perspective and be very valuable. One of the reasons sometimes to hire a coach is you just really want to have a space that is basically safe. And you can say things that you don't really want to tell anybody else. And as a coach, I find that to be a great privilege that people share with me things that they're really not talking to anybody about, including their spouse.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that's what I was talking about with the vulnerability.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Like, so, you know, your advisors, the people in, close to you or in your professional circles, you got to be willing to be open with them. But if you're honest, you're not going to be completely. And that's where a coach is great, because you can really go in and say, this is what I'm thinking and this is where I screwed up, or this is what I want to do, or whatever it might be. So, yeah, I think it can really help a lot of people.

Speaker A: I wanted to hear a little bit more about the startup that you're involved with and how you balance everything with this portfolio career that you've created.

Speaker B: Yeah, we could talk about. I've got some legal work that I do too. The startup is super fun and I really enjoy, uh, working on it. It's very, very hard. So anybody thinking about a startup should know it's really hard. We read all the headlines about all the success stories, but, you know, that's not everybody's fate. I hope it will be ours. So the startup is called jholo. And the idea came to me when I was a, uh, general counsel. I was actually in between general counsel jobs. I had left one job and was looking for another. And I found the process to be exhausting and impersonal and depressing. It didn't matter who you knew, it didn't matter who you were, it didn't matter what your credentials were. It was just, you know, Every job has 4,000 applicants in 30 seconds, and by the time you know about it, it's probably too late. Right. So. Or there's something in your resume that didn't get past an initial screen, even though maybe you would have been a perfect candidate. But how do you distill a career or a person? Because we're all more than our career to a resume. And so the idea came to me of why can't we find jobs? Sort of the way dating apps work, where an app would get to know me as a person and would get smarter the more I interact with jobs. And I could be presented with jobs that match me based on my experiences and my goals and who I am as a person and as a lawyer and as a business. Business person. And if there's a match, have a conversation right in an app. Um, instead of having to play the. The email game of scheduling something, can we have an interview? Can we have this. Just have a chat and an app. And even better, what we've done at jholo is make the candidate profiles anonymous so you don't have to worry about discrimination or unconscious bias sneaking in. The first step of the process, right? You're gonna, you're gonna match with me because my profile is interesting to you and because I match your skills and requirements and. And we're a match on culture and values and other things. We can have a conversation without knowing anything about me. So that's what JLO is. We're. We're live. So my plug would be Jolo AI. If you're looking for a job, go there, create a profile today. We have about a hundred users right now, which is great for a beta. And we're doing ah, um, we're doing a focus group with the university here. I don't know if I can say which university, so I won't. But we're doing a focus group with the university so a lot of traction. Really cool thing. I think it's what drove it for me was I think it's really good for people and it's technology for good. And I like helping people. That's kind of been a theme throughout all the things in my career is helping people. So that's what jholo is. How do I balance it? Well, I have a really good team that I work with and it took a while to put them together and there are some times where it's focused time on jholo and other times when I just have to more focus on other things that I'm doing and you know, trusting, trusting the team and you know, delegating when you need to delegate and dedicating the time I need to dedicate. So it's just, you know, every day is a little bit different but Joel's a cool thing and the right time. Job search. This isn't legal, which we don't do legal. Um, we do everything but legal, basically. But job search for most people is really broken and really frustrating and job search depression is real for people. So that's a little bit about dating. App for job search, anonymous profiles to remove bias in app chat. It's a great thing.

Speaker A: That's a great term. Job search depression. I was just speaking to a client yesterday that has job search depression and I keep telling him that job hunting is. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yes. And you have to be willing to keep moving. And it's hard for lawyers in particular. I don't know if you'll agree with this in terms of who you've met, but we're not that resilient, you know, like, we don't really like rejection, maybe even more so than the average person

Speaker B: when I was job searching and I'm a confident person. Generally, my confidence was down subterranean. It's really bad. I understand your client and job search. Depression is a real term, it's a real thing. And jholo tries to help that by saying, you're going to have power in your job search because you can change your profile, you can answer questions differently, you have the ability to share your voice. We give you a little bit of power in agency and you don't have to spend 20 hours, 30 hours, 40 hours a week searching because we're going to bring the jobs to you. Right? So create your profile, open the app and see which jobs match for you. And if you get a match, you know, you get that dopamine hit if there's a match, right. And so the whole premise was candidate focused and empower candidates in the process. Because it is hard. There will be a lot of projection. How do you have more of a voice? Because, uh, it is very, very hard. You write. Lawyers probably take it even harder. Because we've worked so hard, we powered through law school, we studied for the bar, passed the bar. We can do hard things. Why is somebody not hiring me? Very difficult. Job search is hard, um, especially hard for lawyers.

Speaker A: We're getting near the end here. Question about your younger self. If you could sit down with your younger self at the beginning of your legal career, what advice would you give him?

Speaker B: So this is an easy one because I'd give this advice to my son and to, uh, a young associate who I'm working with. I just gave this advice yesterday, which is you cannot judge your career by the early years. You just cannot. You don't know enough. You don't know enough about you. You don't know enough about the practice. You don't know enough about your firm. It takes time. How much time, I can't say exactly. And it also will depend on where you start your career. Uh, but you can't judge it by the early years. Law is hard, right? It's a hard career, it's a hard industry. It's not like law school. It's certainly not like tv. It's certainly not like the movies. So my advice to younger self and newer attorneys is you cannot judge your career by these early years. And does that mean years one through five, years one through six, years one through eight? I mean, I'm not that. I don't know. I don't haven't yet figured that out yet. But you need to give it time. And I guess what I'd append to that would be. And don't do it alone, like we were talking about earlier. Whether it's with a coach, whether it's with an advisor, a family member, have somebody who you're talking to along the way about the good things, celebrating the successes, and also the challenges you're facing. So don't go it alone and don't judge it. Um, your career by the early years would be my advice to younger self.

Speaker A: For lawyers who feel stuck, uncertain, restless in their careers, what would you like them to take away from our conversation today?

Speaker B: Well, a couple things. One is, and this will be a plug, but talk to the occasional recruiter. I'd love it to be me, but you're getting plenty of emails and phone calls. Talk to them because there's intelligence to gather there, there's, there's market insights to learn. And lawyers tend not to like the sales approach. They don't like recruiters. I know there are some bad actors out there that have given the industry a bad name, but if you refuse to talk to everybody because, oh, uh, I just don't need that, or everything's great, you're missing out on information. And, you know, you don't have to take a job simply because you're talking to a recruiter. You don't even have to apply. But there's information and a connection in the industry and you may not be looking today, but maybe you are in a year and it's nice to have that. So I would say occasionally talk to a recruiter, but also something you mentioned we haven't yet talked about, but your law degree gives you a lot of flexibility. And so if you make different choices, like I did, um, and like others have, you will have options. You will always have an option. You know, whether it's in house, whether it's outside the law, whether it's adjacent to the law, whether it's just, you know what, I don't know what to do, so I'm just going to be a lawyer. You don't need a big company, right? You got a laptop and you got a law firm. Right? Not that hard. So you, you don't need, you know, you don't need factory equipment like other industries do. Right. So you will always have options. The options may not be what you thought or what you planned, but, you know, life is often not what you thought or what you planned. So I think that you'll always have options. With your law degree, there's a lot of different things you can do and, and keep going, keep going, and back to a Theme, I guess that's developing through this conversation. Don't do it alone. Don't do it alone. Talk to the recruiter, have a coach, talk to your friends, talk to mentors, whatever that means to you. Um, talk to people who you went to law school with. Don't do it alone. Don't let lawyer pride get in the way of progress.

Speaker A: Okay, great advice. So, last question that I like to ask all my guests. What's one movie, streaming television series or podcast that you would recommend? And this is something for entertainment purposes?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, Landman is my current recommendation of a streaming television series, uh, with Billy Bob Thornton. I can't remember what streaming service it's on, but I thought it was great. Great writing, witty. Some interesting points of view come through. Um, some nuggets of wisdom on life and just fun. I thought it was. I think there's three seasons now. I don't know if that's the end or if they're going to have a fourth. But that would be my recommendation for a streaming show was good tv, good entertainment. So that's mine. Usually I struggle with those questions because I'm not a big guy. I don't watch a lot of movie, I don't watch a lot of tv. But that one, to me, I've been recommending to people. So thumbs up for me.

Speaker A: Okay, great. Yeah, I'll add it to my list, as I do often when I ask this question, because it's just amazing to me, like 40, 50 years ago, the number of choices in terms of television in particular was much more limited. And so now I'm amazed at how often people recommend things that I've never even heard of.

Speaker B: Well, Landman's a good one. Add it to your list.

Speaker A: Yeah. Matt, this has been a great conversation. Thanks so much for joining us. I always enjoy speaking with you. If anyone in our audience has follow up questions, how can they reach you?

Speaker B: I'd say the best way to reach me would be through my email@mattcounsel uh.com and ascent is a s c e n t counsel C-O-U-N-S e l.com would be the best way to reach me. You can go to my website too and you can reach me through there. And I'm usually pretty responsive on email and I enjoy working with and talking to lawyers.

Speaker A: So feel free to reach out and I strongly encourage everybody to do that. Matt will not just try to recruit you, he will try to help you. And, um, he's a great conversationalist. And you should take advantage of that at offer. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please tell others and rate us on itunes or your favorite podcast app and share it with someone who you think might be interested. And if you're watching on YouTube, please hit the subscribe button. It will help others find us. If you'd like to continue the conversation, I, uh, welcome your inquiries and invite you to set up a time to speak with me about your own career or marketing concerns. I've been coaching lawyers for almost 30 years and I'm happy to do a free 30 minute consultation. You can sign up on my website at secular.com that's S E C K-L-E R.com on my website you can also find links to more episodes of Counsel to Counsel and get access to many free career, marketing and leadership resources. In the meantime, thanks for listening.