Legally Speaking, with Robert Hanna

1 - > Rob Hanna: aside from us being the highest grossing, I believe, 2 - > legal podcast in the world, sponsored by a$5 billion, the 3 - > world's largest legal tech company in Clio that have just 4 - > surpassed 500 million annual recurring revenue, and being 5 - > exclusively sponsored by them since 2021. 6 - > Aside from guaranteed sponsorship revenue where the 7 - > ROI on that is, is, is infinite, um, that's the wrong way to look 8 - > at it. 9 - > John Tyreman: All right.

10 - > Welcome business podcasters to another episode of"Podcasting in 11 - > Professional Services." I'm your host, John Tyreman, founder of 12 - > Red Cedar, where we build media brands for experts like you. 13 - > Today, my guest is Robert Hanna, founder and managing director at 14 - > KC Partners and host of the UK's number one law podcast,"Legally 15 - > Speaking." Welcome to the show, Robert.

16 - > Rob Hanna: Ah, John, absolute blast to have you with me today 17 - > as a guesting on your show. 18 - > I'm so used to hosting, so I'm genuinely excited. 19 - > Love what you're doing, love what you stand for. 20 - > I'm passionate about podcasting.

21 - > I'm passionate about brand building and helping 22 - > organizations and people see the value in all of this stuff. 23 - > So real pleasure to be here. 24 - > Thanks so much for having me. 25 - > John Tyreman: Yeah, totally.

26 - > And I get that sentiment a lot that podcast hosts love being in 27 - > the guest seat, so I love to be able to provide that, uh, that 28 - > value to you. 29 - > Um, first of all, Rob, before we get into it, um, I just wanna 30 - > say thank you for participating in our 2026 State of Podcasting 31 - > in Professional Services research study. 32 - > Um, folks that are listening to this can get, pick up their 33 - > report at redcedarmarketing.com.

34 - > Um, but thank you so much for sharing your insights there and 35 - > today. 36 - > Um, but before we get to your show,"Legally Speaking," can you 37 - > first just kinda set the stage for our listeners who might not 38 - > be kinda familiar with your firm, KC Partners. 39 - > Rob Hanna: Yeah, so I help lawyers land dream jobs. 40 - > So I have a legal talent solutions business, and of last 41 - > half a decade, content-focused business as well, which is why 42 - > the legal side of it started.

43 - > So my day-to-day is I legal - I run a legal recruiting business 44 - > in the UK. 45 - > We service big law lawyers, so anything you see in the news 46 - > where a company's taking over another company, we're probably 47 - > hiring those lawyers. 48 - > And we're also helping US law firms that are building 49 - > aggressively in London to, um, grow with their strategic hiring 50 - > of, of, of UK-focused talent. 51 - > So that's what I do principally as part of my day-to-day.

52 - > Why do I do it? 53 - > What gets me out of bed? 54 - > My grandfather, my late grandfather, ran a very 55 - > successful law firm in the UK, and I grew up from a legal 56 - > family. 57 - > He built a tremendous legacy, um, an offline legacy in his 58 - > world way back when, before social and everything else.

59 - > And he got - At his funeral, one of his friends said to him,"Live 60 - > respected, die regretted." And that really landed with me. 61 - > He built a fantastic reputation in an offline world where word 62 - > of mouth and what you did for people really carried meaning 63 - > and went through generations of families. 64 - > And I thought if I could carry that legal legacy, uh, but in a 65 - > modern, innovative, creative, researchable, discoverable way 66 - > for my generations beneath me, my daughters, I think I can do 67 - > good.

68 - > So that's what drives me. 69 - > That's what gets me out of bed. 70 - > That's what gets me excited to build a kinder, more 71 - > collaborative global legal community. 72 - > John Tyreman: when did you found your firm, KC Partners?

73 - > Rob Hanna: That was in 2016. 74 - > So I started - Pri- prior to that, I had a, um, career for 75 - > about 10 years in general recruiting across, um, energy, 76 - > oil and gas, procurement, supply chain. 77 - > And then I realized that I felt I had the skills, I had the 78 - > tools. 79 - > I was getting fed up of making people money.

80 - > I thought maybe I could do it for myself and also do something 81 - > where I have a genuine why attached to it. 82 - > I think entrepreneurship really you do need to have that burning 83 - > passion and that why and that thing that gets you out the bed, 84 - > 'cause most days suck. 85 - > Um, and if you're comfortable with that and you enjoy that, 86 - > you'll keep coming back. 87 - > So yeah, that's really, um, my, my career.

88 - > I was the first in my family to go into the City of London. 89 - > I wanted to be the first in my family to set up a business in 90 - > the City of London. 91 - > And yeah, it snowballed from 2016. 92 - > Uh, but I soon realized very early to starting my business in 93 - > 2016, absolutely nobody cared that I set up a business.

94 - > I need to give them a reason to care. 95 - > And one of those reasons was being new to business 96 - > development strategy, outreach strategy, um, leveraging social, 97 - > LinkedIn. 98 - > I've been a LinkedIn Top Voice. 99 - > I've advised LinkedIn.

100 - > I've been invited to their offices around the world. 101 - > I've helped them with product rollouts such as their beta 102 - > testing audio platform and various other things. 103 - > Um, I realized very early on that podcasting could have been 104 - > that outlet, which I'm happy to talk more about at any point. 105 - > Um, but the real key is, it's great that you set up a 106 - > business, but you have to get people to care and support you 107 - > and champion you and give you a why to support your business as 108 - > well.

109 - > John Tyreman: So you, you founded the business in 2016, 110 - > you mentioned podcasting as an outlet and, um, obviously that's 111 - > a way that you've built your business up today. 112 - > So the first episode of"Legally Speaking" aired in November 113 - > 2019. 114 - > Rob Hanna: Yep. 115 - > research.

116 - > John Tyreman: you. 117 - > Why start a podcast in the first place? 118 - > Like, why that medium instead of leaning into some other 119 - > channels? 120 - > Rob Hanna: two reasons.

121 - > One, way back then, we were the first in the UK to launch a 122 - > legal talent, if you like, focused legal careers show. 123 - > So we got blue ocean opportunity. 124 - > This is 2019. 125 - > We're in 2016 chatting today.

126 - > Podcasts are everywhere. 127 - > You know, you can use a platform like we're using Riverside FM. 128 - > Um, you can do everything in-house. 129 - > You don't even need an editor.

130 - > You can use their co-creator chat platform. 131 - > You could DIY it yourself. 132 - > You know, they're really making, podcasting very accessible for 133 - > everyone. 134 - > So the big takeaway from this, if you've got an idea, take 135 - > action on it, because you can be b- ahead of the market.

136 - > It's better to be first than it is to be better sometimes. 137 - > And so we got low-hanging early stage bl- uh, early mover 138 - > advantage in terms of being first. 139 - > Um, the further why behind that was, as I mentioned sort of a 140 - > little bit tongue in cheek before that nobody cared I had a 141 - > business, what I also was up against is very established 142 - > competitors. 143 - > So if you're starting a business in a saturated market, which I 144 - > was, and I'm actually a big advocate for saturated markets 145 - > 'cause that tells me there's demand.

146 - > You just need to find your way to stand out in that saturated 147 - > market. 148 - > So I was up against organizations, legal recruiting 149 - > business been around for 10, 20 years that have had the clients 150 - > that I wanted to, my dream client, and they were doing the 151 - > very traditional things that you would expect that organization 152 - > to be doing in terms of leveraging their database, 153 - > chucking out job adverts, you know, churning the wheel and 154 - > doing the deals, doing the deals.

155 - > And that's great, but no one's gonna pick up to Rob Hannah. 156 - > "Hey, do you wanna come and work with me?" You've never heard of 157 - > me. 158 - > I've got no proven track record.

159 - > Um, I'm just doing this'cause I've got this burning passion 160 - > and desire in my, my, my, my stomach. 161 - > And so what I wanted to do is think lead with value. 162 - > So the podcasting was a great way to start conversations to 163 - > lead with value. 164 - > So rather than reaching out to my prospective client, which 165 - > would be a senior lawyer in a law firm who's A, very busy, B, 166 - > sort of very, very sort of not used to probably getting these 167 - > sort of invitations, so it might be exciting and new.

168 - > I thought I had a chance. 169 - > So I'd say,"Hey, um, you know, I'd love to feature you on my, 170 - > my podcast. 171 - > Um, I'd love to invite you into my office." This is when back 172 - > in-person podcastings were really giving them experience.

173 - > So I would invite them to my office. 174 - > I'd make them cups of tea. 175 - > I would, um, give them a really first-class experience. 176 - > I'd give them the best to my ability interview, and then I 177 - > would say to them,"Look, all I need is this half an hour of 178 - > your time, and we will curate content for you.

179 - > And this is new. 180 - > We'll create a newsletter for you. 181 - > We'll be able to pass this on to your marketing for- team for 182 - > you. 183 - > We'll be able to create some short-form video clips."

Again, 184 - > very early in short-form video clips that would start, which 185 - > are gonna be an upward trajectory. 186 - > So I'm starting to come with value because lawyers are busy 187 - > technically servicing on their job, not necessarily so good at 188 - > business development, profile building way back when. 189 - > I think they're better at it now on LinkedIn and everyone in the 190 - > professional services space are, are catching up. 191 - > And so we were able to basically pitch to them This great 192 - > service, great opportunity to get out there, exposure, give 193 - > them a great example, and then of course the, the journey is 194 - > all around legal careers.

195 - > So we could say this could be a great way for you to then create 196 - > a video job spec for you to mark out, which would help you with 197 - > your, your future in hiring. 198 - > And then they'd be like,"Oh, but don't you do hiring?""Yeah, we 199 - > do." And suddenly you catch them on the hook on the back end, 200 - > right?

201 - > So it's organic value-led relationship, good experience, 202 - > really researching them, giving them questions that they 203 - > wouldn't expect to be asked, to be interviewed to a higher 204 - > standard, to establish a relationship, to then hook them 205 - > to be your client on the back end. 206 - > And that's kind of how the strategy work and it snowballed 207 - > from there. 208 - > John Tyreman: Well, I imagine that there was a bit of a hiccup 209 - > in that strategy when COVID hit and in-person podcasting became 210 - > a little bit more challenging.

211 - > How did - What was the impact of that time and, and how did that 212 - > play out with the podcast? 213 - > Rob Hanna: Well, that's the beautiful thing, right? 214 - > You can either look at problems or you can think they're 215 - > solutions. 216 - > So that actually helped get our show global.

217 - > Like I'm tuning in from the UK, you're not flying over here to 218 - > spend half an hour of your time to sit in the room with me. 219 - > You don't want the fuel cost, you don't want the time away 220 - > from your family, you don't want the, the headache of it. 221 - > Um, but you'll happily jump on a Zoom or a Riverside and do a 222 - > half an hour recording. 223 - > And so it opened up the world to us.

224 - > It actually opened up our horizons to what is possible to 225 - > get access to legal voices in and around the world of law that 226 - > we otherwise wouldn't have been able to do so. 227 - > So it 10X'd our show in terms of people that have been discounted 228 - > that we'd love to have, because for us, we had the blind spots. 229 - > At the time, if you don't know, you don't know. 230 - > I had never heard of Zoom really around the time of, you know, 231 - > when Zoom was becoming the, the, the platform.

232 - > So it actually, in hindsight, was one of the most beautiful 233 - > things that happened from a very obviously challenging time that 234 - > made it table stakes now for virtual recordings. 235 - > And as a result that we've, we've kept that as our sort of 236 - > forward medium. 237 - > We do lots of miniseries where we do in P- we've just got back 238 - > from Ibiza where we've been doing poolside interviews. 239 - > We've been to Dubai, we've done interviews on yachts.

240 - > Uh, we've done stuff at G-Wagons at Mercedes World. 241 - > We've done stuff, uh, all over the world. 242 - > Um, whole host of things, and we still keep that in-person 243 - > experiential type interview, but a lot of it now is virtual, and 244 - > COVID really set the play for that. 245 - > John Tyreman: I do wanna get into some of the ways that you 246 - > promoted the podcast, but I, I do wanna focus, first on the 247 - > business impact that the podcast has had so far.

248 - > So you launched the, your business in 2016, you launched 249 - > the podcast in 2019. 250 - > Fast-forward to today, we're in 2026. 251 - > Has the, the podcast been, in your view, an ROI positive 252 - > investment? 253 - > And then how do you quantify that?

254 - > Rob Hanna: aside from us being the highest grossing, I believe, 255 - > legal podcast in the world, sponsored by a$5 billion, the 256 - > world's largest legal tech company in Clio that have just 257 - > surpassed 500 million annual recurring revenue, and being 258 - > exclusively sponsored by them since 2021. 259 - > Aside from guaranteed sponsorship revenue where the 260 - > ROI on that is, is, is infinite, um, that's the wrong way to look 261 - > at it. 262 - > The way to look at it is COI, it's cost of inaction.

263 - > Okay? 264 - > So many people don't take action because they want to know the 265 - > immediate ROI. 266 - > I don't think that's an entrepreneurial lens. 267 - > I think that's an accounting lens.

268 - > I think that's in a finance lens. 269 - > I think that's a very closed lens of looking at it. 270 - > Business is, you know, it's not about getting lucky. 271 - > Business is about more risk you take.

272 - > The more risk you take, the more luck you get. 273 - > And so I, I, I, I, you know, you said,"Why did you start a 274 - > podcast?" No one else was doing it. 275 - > You know, people were afraid.

276 - > People weren't really paying attention to it, and so those 277 - > blue ocean opportunities. 278 - > So, um, the ROI, yes, if we were to track it in terms of 279 - > sponsorship alone, is probably 200% plus. 280 - > In terms of being out there, we're always, you know, e- each 281 - > week I'm producing shows, content, legal careers focused 282 - > on my target law firm partners. 283 - > My candidates are reaching out to me.

284 - > We've made placements off that. 285 - > We've had referrals off that. 286 - > You know, average deal sizes are, are quite chunky in the UK. 287 - > They're tens of thousands.

288 - > Um, but the real thing is, it's the cost of inaction. 289 - > None of this, none of the opportunities and my personal 290 - > brand elevation to, you know, I've been able to collaborate 291 - > with the likes of Gary Vee and go on stages and podcast the 292 - > likes of Steven Bartlett, you know, the sort of"Dragons' Den," 293 - > "Diary of a CEO," one of the most popular podcasts in the 294 - > world. 295 - > All of these opportunities wouldn't have had to me if I 296 - > hadn't leaned into the COI principle.

297 - > So if you're sat here with an idea or thinking of a podcast or 298 - > what else, stop looking at the ROI. 299 - > Think,"What is the cost of inaction? 300 - > What could this cost me if I don't take action now?" And I 301 - > think if you switch that mindset, you'll suddenly start 302 - > seeing actually there's a world of opportunity for you out 303 - > there.

304 - > John Tyreman: And so how do you hold yourself accountable to 305 - > that action, right? 306 - > That's the one thing that I think in all of professional 307 - > services a, a lot of consultants struggle with is investing that 308 - > time into those unbillable hours, right? 309 - > So what, I guess what motivates you to get up and act? 310 - > Rob Hanna: Well, firstly, I think you have to have your own 311 - > self-accountability, right?

312 - > If it's meant to be, it's up to me. 313 - > So you have to have an element of self-accountability. 314 - > And I also feel that in, in sort of my, my, my sort of belief in, 315 - > in business generally is if you're not passionate about what 316 - > you're doing You're probably not going to do it. 317 - > So what I mean by that is you may feel like you need to do a 318 - > podcast, but actually if you're not passionate about that, but 319 - > you know it's gonna be beneficial, is there someone you 320 - > could maybe bring in and you could be part of your team, you 321 - > know, or people that you know that might want to do that, that 322 - > could make it consistent or what have you.

323 - > And everyone says they're time poor, they don't have time. 324 - > Everyone has time to do a 15-minute interview in a week, 325 - > and that 15-minute interview could potentially turn out to be 326 - > three, four months of content, maybe a year's worth of content 327 - > if you really strip that down into a content strategy, into 328 - > themes around the world, things going on in the world, you know, 329 - > anxiety, World Mental Health Day, um, diversity and 330 - > inclusion.

331 - > Like if you touch on topics and things that are relevant to your 332 - > audience or niche or AI technology. 333 - > So everyone has the time. 334 - > And so I would say to people in terms of accountability is A, 335 - > have self-accountability. 336 - > If you're not passionate about it or it doesn't drive you, who 337 - > are some of those people that could potentially help you to 338 - > p-put the driving seat, to put the metrics in place?

339 - > Because in business there are two types of individuals. 340 - > Typically, if you're a business owner, there's visionaries and 341 - > there's integrators. 342 - > The visionaries are the ideas people that go out there, 343 - > they've got a million ideas. 344 - > None of them get executed without an integrator.

345 - > So you might just need that integrator, that person that can 346 - > help you with integrating and actually doing the execution, 347 - > doing the value add, whatever it might be, following up on some 348 - > of the processes. 349 - > John Tyreman: I love that you're speaking in EOS terms because, 350 - > Rob Hanna: Yeah. 351 - > That framework works, right? 352 - > John Tyreman: Oh, it, it totally does, and it's helped me 353 - > organize my business, and a few of my clients operate on it as 354 - > well, and they love it too.

355 - > Rob, a couple things that you mentioned I want to highlight 356 - > and dig in on a little bit. 357 - > So you mentioned creating content every single week, and 358 - > then you mentioned consistency. 359 - > So your show is a weekly podcast, so I guess I've got two 360 - > questions for you. 361 - > Number one, why weekly?

362 - > And then two, how are you able to maintain that consistency? 363 - > Like, what are the systems that you have in place? 364 - > Rob Hanna: Yeah. 365 - > Great, great question.

366 - > so firstly, I, I think we could be an everyday show. 367 - > Our demand has got that high. 368 - > So we're in now the top 1% of shows in the world. 369 - > We're a top number one for, um, the UK, where we, we partner, so 370 - > we're the go-to for a number of the major legal, um, outlet 371 - > YouTube channels such as National Law Review, which gets 372 - > 3.

2, um, million viewership each month, that, that kind of stuff. 373 - > So we're in demand. 374 - > It's obviously my, my time. 375 - > I couldn't actually physically do, uh, one a day with the other 376 - > bits and ventures.

377 - > So firstly, why one a week? 378 - > Because we absolutely know the demand is there and people 379 - > expect it. 380 - > I'll use a scenario as well is, um, you know, in Netflix, when 381 - > you see your favorite series, um, you start getting into"Lost" 382 - > way back when or what have you, you're gutted if there's not a 383 - > new season coming out. 384 - > You're gutted.

385 - > So we're in Season 10, and of course, now it's a commercial 386 - > business. 387 - > We've trademarked our content. 388 - > We've got big ticket sponsors. 389 - > We're doing some of the - We go to some of the biggest events 390 - > around the world.

391 - > I get flown around the world to come up and do a media and 392 - > actually be the voice outlet for these legal organizations. 393 - > So we've built a brand, and when you've got brand, people wanna 394 - > be attached to it. 395 - > It's really, really important. 396 - > So absolutely one a week is because we know the demand is 397 - > there, and that enables us to be consistent.

398 - > And then in terms of being consistent, we've done over 500 399 - > episodes across 10 seasons. 400 - > Um, it's not just about putting out another episode. 401 - > Once you get to a, a level and an, and an audience, they expect 402 - > quality. 403 - > There's a reason they've been following you and expecting you.

404 - > So your caliber of content and your caliber of guest and your 405 - > caliber of delivery needs to continuously get better because 406 - > other people are coming into the market. 407 - > And I love that there's other legal podcasts coming out there 408 - > innovating, coming at us or trying to take market share 409 - > because keeps us on our toes, and I like that. 410 - > And that's why I think, you know, if you just have a 411 - > podcast, you're at risk. 412 - > We're building a community around that, and I can talk 413 - > about some of the strategies we're, we're doing.

414 - > So consistency, we're also looking at the themes Right. 415 - > So what are the big ticket themes? 416 - > Legal technology, AI, efficiencies, um, big things 417 - > going on that are gonna impact careers. 418 - > The key to a successful podcast is having a good TOI.

419 - > It's a topic of influence. 420 - > So our topic of influence is legal careers, and what I mean 421 - > by that, if you're gonna start a podcast or, or anything really, 422 - > um, it's understanding what the pain point is. 423 - > So for me, remember my holding company is my legal recruiting 424 - > business. 425 - > I want lawyers, lawyers to be, to be working for and to help 426 - > them with new roles.

427 - > So legal careers make sense. 428 - > So people might be putting into ChatGPT now or Claude, um, or 429 - > Google way back when, how to get a legal job or top tips to get 430 - > an interview in a, in a law. 431 - > So that needs to be our content, right? 432 - > That stuff needs to be in our content to, to deliver to our 433 - > audience, to deliver on our ROI, our, our TOI, and so we've been 434 - > able to be consistent around understanding the key themes and 435 - > things impacting our TOI, where we know demand is.

436 - > So we can look at Google, um, index data. 437 - > We can go on Keywords Planner. 438 - > We can go on answerthepublic.com.

439 - > You know, we can get all those g- Goo- Google index data points 440 - > in terms of what are the questions people are asking, and 441 - > then we go and get the absolute best guest to deliver on those 442 - > questions and get their stories, 'cause facts tell, but the 443 - > stories really sell, and that enables, enables people to 444 - > really connect with our audience, and I think we do a 445 - > good job of that, and we, we go above and beyond in terms of 446 - > researching guests, in terms of asking questions that is not in 447 - > the public domain.

448 - > So when they come on, they're almost like enthused and excited 449 - > 'cause they've never been asked these questions before, because 450 - > going on a podcast now isn't as exciting as once was, so you 451 - > need to bring out the absolute best. 452 - > Um, and so we just work in that top percent, one percenters of 453 - > really delivering the best interviews possible for our 454 - > guests. 455 - > John Tyreman: I love the, the research-based approach that you 456 - > take on the issues first, rather than identifying guests that you 457 - > want to bring in just because they're influential.

458 - > The Lost analogy is great because it really is a media 459 - > brand that you're building. 460 - > It's much more than a podcast and, um, and I think that that's 461 - > kind of the theme that I'm, that I'm taking away from our 462 - > conversation right now. 463 - > And, and I wanna expand upon that a little bit,'cause you've 464 - > mentioned a, a couple times of doing interviews on, on boats 465 - > and, you know, courtside and things like that. 466 - > Can, can you talk about going to those live events and, um, and 467 - > how that ties into the podcast, and what has been your 468 - > experience in the conversations at those live events and how 469 - > that melds with the podcast that you've created?

470 - > Rob Hanna: Yeah, no, thank you. 471 - > And thank you for mentioning Courtside Conversations. 472 - > So for context, con- that launched in January of 2026, and 473 - > that is a blend of, uh, Padel, which, um, is one of the 474 - > fastest-growing sports in the world right now, which is 475 - > inevitably going to be an Olympic sport, or padel, um, 476 - > which originates from, from Spain, with podcasting, with 477 - > networking. 478 - > And so I wanted - And there's a legal theme to that as well with 479 - > the courtside, courtside, um, et cetera.

480 - > Um, what, what we, we found is actually, um, there is event 481 - > fatigue, and there is death by hotel conference, there is death 482 - > by lanyards, there is death by small conversation. 483 - > And what's really important is to understand that we're all 484 - > humans here. 485 - > We all wanna go out and connect with people, have a 486 - > conversation, be ourselves. 487 - > And so actually, putting the networking and the chatting and 488 - > stuff after an activity when your endorphins are up was a 489 - > really smart play.

490 - > And we were in the sunshine. 491 - > It was when it was the Billion Summit, um, in Dubai, looking 492 - > out at the Future Museum of the World. 493 - > Um, incredible Padel courts. 494 - > We brought 50 or so legal people together, and we just played 495 - > Padel.

496 - > We had a great time, the conversations, bit of 497 - > competition. 498 - > Lawyers are competitive. 499 - > And then after that, people were ready to do some side interviews 500 - > and connect and chat. 501 - > And then we had a DJ that was spinning the tunes and sort of 502 - > afterwards.

503 - > And it just, it just proved the concept that actually people 504 - > want slightly different interactive, immersive, 505 - > connectivity-focused events. 506 - > And why did we do it? 507 - > Because I think it's really important if you're building a 508 - > brand to let people feel seen, heard, and valued. 509 - > What better way than to invite them to an in-person event and 510 - > to an experience?

511 - > Because yes, there's a like and a comment on Spotify or on 512 - > LinkedIn or on YouTube, or there's a quick exchange. 513 - > But actually shaking hands or, as my friend Mitch Jackson says, 514 - > "Turning digital handshakes into real-life hugs," that's really 515 - > important. 516 - > And I think if you're gonna be building a community and as a 517 - > podcast host and you're the lead or the voice of that, I think 518 - > being open. 519 - > And that's why I put on a lot of events.

520 - > Another one is the Great Big Legal Offsite, which we're 521 - > gearing up for this year, which you might have seen in your, um, 522 - > your sort of research, which is on July the 3rd. 523 - > And we've done, again, slightly different format. 524 - > That's all about the future of law and law firms trying to add 525 - > value to lawyers and people in law, but we'd make it fun. 526 - > We've had an eight-foot AI robot that would go around singing 527 - > "Lady in Red," squirting the guests with water.

528 - > This year's theme's gonna be Laws of the Jungle. 529 - > We've got"America's Got Talent" and"Britain's Got Talent" and X 530 - > Factor's MC for the day, like the voiceover artist coming. 531 - > And people are just wowed. 532 - > It's like, wow, we don't get this in legal.

533 - > Like you're coming in, you're disrupting, you're being 534 - > different. 535 - > You're, you're working on COI, you know, im- not the immediate 536 - > ROI. 537 - > And then suddenly you get attached to one of the world's 538 - > biggest legal tech brands that see what you're doing, that are 539 - > trying to be progressive, and it suddenly starts becoming a great 540 - > collaboration partnership, but also your ROI then starts 10, 541 - > 20, 100X-ing. 542 - > John Tyreman: I think it - you're very forward-thinking in 543 - > terms of focusing on the experiential aspect of that.

544 - > I see that as be-being like that that's in the future, but you're 545 - > doing this right now. 546 - > Rob Hanna: Well, yeah, again, remember when I was doing the 547 - > podcast, no one was doing it. 548 - > So again, people are sleeping, right? 549 - > And you've gotta wake up, that podcasts are not exciting 550 - > anymore.

551 - > No one cares that you've started a podcast. 552 - > No one cares about the"Legally Speaking" podcast outside of the 553 - > community that I've built. 554 - > But new people, I need to go out there and get these new people 555 - > and ac- think of growth, think of attraction, think of leaning 556 - > into what I've already built. 557 - > Because everyone's probably read the book"Good to Great" by Jim 558 - > Collins, the flywheel effect.

559 - > You've gotta continuously start putting energy inputs, new ideas 560 - > to keep that momentum building and building, and building and 561 - > building. 562 - > And then, like you said, we're building a media brand. 563 - > We're gearing up to potentially be acquired one day. 564 - > We don't wanna be sponsored by, we wanna be owned by.

565 - > So we have a whole strategy about being the world's first 566 - > professional services show to be acquired. 567 - > Won't be Joe Rogan's level of the hundreds of millions, but 568 - > it'll certainly make a chunk into the, uh, the dent to prove 569 - > that podcasting should be investable assets. 570 - > Podcasting people should be paying to play to get involved 571 - > in them and be seeing that they're the most trusted form of 572 - > medium. 573 - > People spend so much on ads, sp- so much other things, but 574 - > actually if someone - And don't get too hell-bent on downloads.

575 - > I'm getting on my soapbox here, but I bloody will. 576 - > Um, it's about actually, if someone's gonna give you 20 to 577 - > half... 578 - > If someone's gonna listen to this episode end to end, that 579 - > proves you've got a really good quality content and people care 580 - > about what you're doing. 581 - > That person listening to you for 30 minutes every week is an 582 - > invaluable potential fan, referrer, business person at 583 - > some po- in the future, rather than getting touched on a 584 - > short-form video clip for three seconds, never going to watch 585 - > the full episode, but being tacked on the TikTok algo or 586 - > what have you.

587 - > So I feel like don't get too worried about the official 588 - > number of downloads. 589 - > Think about the average listening and time, the quality 590 - > of those people, because if they're listening to it end to 591 - > end, they care about you, and it's about taking those people, 592 - > turning them into super fans, loyal fans, and growing from 593 - > there. 594 - > John Tyreman: on top of all of that, the relationships that you 595 - > forge with the guests, that y- those guest conversations, 596 - > that's, that's, um, immensely valuable as well.

597 - > Rob, I wanna ask about, um, so 500 episodes is very impressive. 598 - > how do you make sure that those older episodes still see the 599 - > light of day? 600 - > How - Do you re-promote older episodes? 601 - > How do you work that into your promotion cycles?

602 - > Rob Hanna: bang on, John. 603 - > And it's so true. 604 - > We just did it this week. 605 - > My friend Jody Hill, who's one of the top, uh, mental health 606 - > voices.

607 - > It's been Mental Health Awareness Week. 608 - > Um, you know, and that was, uh, in episode two. 609 - > Um, we, we have a, A, we have a searchable web- website on our, 610 - > our website, so we can put in the keywords. 611 - > Again, I'm a big, what, what are the keywords?

612 - > What are the datas? 613 - > What's easily accessible? 614 - > So we look at, we have a events of the year calendar. 615 - > Everything that's going on in and around the legal world and 616 - > in the general world, and we think about how then we can 617 - > repurpose an episode from that, okay?

618 - > So there's obviously mental health awareness. 619 - > Christmas, July 4th, we do Christmas specials, you know, 620 - > things going on. 621 - > Anything where there's an event or something going on in the 622 - > world, we have that tracked, and we use that as an opportunity to 623 - > then repurpose, recycle it. 624 - > Because what we're trying to do is we're trying to audience 625 - > jack, right?

626 - > When stuff is trending on hashtags, we wanna make sure 627 - > that we're talking about those conversations, so we're at the 628 - > front doorstop of that. 629 - > Similar to why do I wanna come on your show? 630 - > I want to hijack your audience. 631 - > I hope people listening to this enjoy.

632 - > If two or three people, ideally a few more, enjoy this and start 633 - > hearing about"The Legally Speaking" podcast or refer that 634 - > to people, I feel like I've done my job. 635 - > Similarly, when I share it, you're gonna hope people are 636 - > gonna want to know more about your show, and that's just the 637 - > way it works. 638 - > It's about audience growth, audience collaboration is 639 - > domination. 640 - > Um, but yeah, absolutely content repurpose is really important 641 - > strategy.

642 - > And of course, you can modernize it, right? 643 - > So our audio quality wasn't that great back way back then. 644 - > Our branding was different, so we put it in slightly new 645 - > branding. 646 - > We used the new images of the individual.

647 - > We used the quotes that might be timeless quotes or what have 648 - > you. 649 - > So it's never, never dated, but we're very keen to do evergreen 650 - > content interviews. 651 - > So we try not to do too much dated content. 652 - > We try and do it, and we explain to our guests in advance that, 653 - > you know, the longer we can kind of not say,"This week, this is 654 - > happening," and we remove that from the interview, then we've 655 - > kinda got more legacy evergreen content to keep those episodes 656 - > churning out again and again and again.

657 - > John Tyreman: And this is why it's so important to make sure 658 - > that your episodes are tagged and organized properly, and the 659 - > data is structured in a way that's indexable, it's 660 - > searchable, um, not just for, you know, search algorithms, but 661 - > to your point, for when you know that you have e- episodes in 662 - > your back catalog that you wanna go and highlight again. 663 - > Rob Hanna: the key, what we're good at or what we were good at 664 - > when no one cared about the show and no one knewed about us, is 665 - > knowing who's on the rise.

666 - > John Tyreman: Right. 667 - > Yep. 668 - > Rob Hanna: What I mean by that is when someone's hit there, 669 - > they're not gonna come on your show. 670 - > They're too busy.

671 - > They don't care about you. 672 - > But if you get someone who's on the rise, and you get them early 673 - > enough that they're grateful for the opportunity, and then when 674 - > they get there, you repurpose, you get that audience jack back, 675 - > you get that value back, you get that lifetime value back off 676 - > them without them even noticing. 677 - > And the relationship started organic because you helped them 678 - > first. 679 - > John Tyreman: Yeah, I, I like to advise my clients on breaking up 680 - > your target guests into three buckets when you're first 681 - > starting out.

682 - > friendly contacts that'll help you out just because they trust 683 - > you, they know you, they like you, and they wanna help you 684 - > Rob Hanna: Yep. 685 - > John Tyreman: And that second bucket is the rising stars, the 686 - > people that are - want to get their voice out there that 687 - > you're placing a bet on for the future. 688 - > And then your dream guests. 689 - > Once you're established, you can go out and reach out to, to 690 - > dream guests.

691 - > that's kind of validating to hear that kind of perspective 692 - > from you. 693 - > in your marketing, you've mentioned that you're on a 694 - > mission to disrupt the legal recruitment sector. 695 - > So it sounds like the podcast is helping you achieve that 696 - > mission. 697 - > Rob Hanna: Yeah, I mean, hopefully what I've shared thus 698 - > far the proves - proof of concept.

699 - > you know, I, I take time away from my family to go around the 700 - > world to do that as well. 701 - > So, you know, I know it sounds exciting. 702 - > I've been in Ibiza, I've been to Dubai, but, uh, you know, I'm, 703 - > I'm also very family-focused. 704 - > Like I wa- I've got a, a young daughter, I wanna be around her.

705 - > You know, I, I, I've built this life so I can be. 706 - > You know, I can't - I don't get stuck in the corporate trap, and 707 - > I can be a creator and business builder and owner and have that 708 - > freedom and flexibility. 709 - > But I'm also very passionate about delivering on this 710 - > mission. 711 - > So yeah, I will go out there, and when we go to these places, 712 - > we do the work.

713 - > Yeah, it's great that we're doing an interview in the 714 - > sunshine. 715 - > There's a poolside panel, but I'm researching the guests. 716 - > I'm getting the best quality information out of them because 717 - > we're drowning in information but craving wisdom, right? 718 - > And so I need to get that wisdom out of my guests to ensure that 719 - > we're top tier.

720 - > It's like, yeah, I listen to Legally Speaking podcast'cause 721 - > the interviews genuinely fill my cup with entertainment, 722 - > education, and relevant, helpful information that's gonna help me 723 - > become a better lawyer or a better legal professional, 724 - > someone to harm- enhance my legal career. 725 - > And what I mean by that is we're never gonna be a Diary of a CEO, 726 - > and we don't want to be, because, you know, unless you 727 - > get that big to Diary of CEO, which I'm sure a lot of people 728 - > know about.

729 - > I'm sure I'm, I'm talking to - I know the US audience, I'm sure 730 - > people are familiar with it. 731 - > You know, they've got so big now, they can have politicians 732 - > on there, but it's not Diary of a CEO anymore. 733 - > It's not CEOs on this. 734 - > It's sports stars.

735 - > It's anyone. 736 - > It's anything, right? 737 - > Because unless you get that big, stay to what I said to you 738 - > before, that TOI, that topic of influence,'cause that's where 739 - > you're gonna get brands. 740 - > That's when you're gonna get partnerships.

741 - > That's where you're gonna get leads. 742 - > That's where you're gonna get trust. 743 - > That's when you're gonna get your micro, nano communities 744 - > really coming together and being part of you and supporting you. 745 - > And if you get a major breakthrough, then sure, have 746 - > who the hell you want on your show all the time and just make 747 - > it into whatever you want it to be.

748 - > But I think being really strategic is really important. 749 - > John Tyreman: Awesome. 750 - > Awesome. 751 - > Yep, and it's clear that you've led with that why throughout 752 - > this whole process, and that's one of the driving forces to the 753 - > success of the"Legally Speaking" podcast.

754 - > So, uh, Rob, I've got one final question for you. 755 - > Um, where do you take the show from here? 756 - > What's on the horizon for "Legally Speaking"? 757 - > Rob Hanna: Yeah.

758 - > We wanna be the number one legal show in the world. 759 - > Um, we're in the top 1% of shows in the world. 760 - > We're in the number one in the UK. 761 - > We're very, very - We're probably all but there 762 - > arguments, you know, if we, we could argue we are, but I think 763 - > we absolutely do wanna have that badge and be known to, if anyone 764 - > thinks of legal media, thinks of legal interviews, thinks of 765 - > legal information, they think of "Legally Speaking Podcast."

And 766 - > we wanna be the first show to be acquired, um, by a major 767 - > organization that shakes the industry and proves that 768 - > podcasting wasn't just a nice-to-have, but it was the 769 - > real business development strategic tool that actually 770 - > created real ROI through conversation and connection 771 - > because, um, community is really important. 772 - > Building a podcast around community is one of the 773 - > strongest, smartest ways I think you can do it.

774 - > So I wanna be the first in the legal world to have done that. 775 - > John Tyreman: Sage advice, Robert. 776 - > and thank you for, um, your, your time today. 777 - > for folks that are listening, they can connect with you on 778 - > LinkedIn.

779 - > Uh, they can check out legallyspeakingpodcast.com for 780 - > the event calendars, for all the latest episodes. 781 - > is there anything else that, we didn't talk about today that 782 - > you'd like to highlight for our listeners? 783 - > Rob Hanna: I think one is just a strategy that we did when we 784 - > first launched the show.

785 - > I know I've talked quite a little bit sort of, you know, 786 - > generally. 787 - > Give one strategic play because this again could come across a 788 - > little bit overwhelming for somebody who has never started. 789 - > So when I first started"Legally Speaking Podcast," again, 790 - > thinking strategically, I've referenced that we had a topic 791 - > of influence What I didn't say when we first started is we were 792 - > very, very intentional about who our first guests were, and I 793 - > mentioned collaboration is domination.

794 - > So when we invited our first guests, we invited the 795 - > presidents of the London Young Lawyers Group, which is a 796 - > society over here in the UK which has around 7,000 members. 797 - > Now, those 7,000 members are my ideal legal recruiting avatar. 798 - > They're sort of mid to junior level lawyers, which of course 799 - > are ones that I would want to recruit or get known to, but had 800 - > already got relationships with my competitors, right? 801 - > Because I'm new into the market with KC Partners.

802 - > So that's why we called it Legal Speaking Podcast, point of 803 - > difference and then hook on the back end. 804 - > So why did I invite those on? 805 - > Because they had a trusted audience. 806 - > And what were they gonna do when it aired as the first episode?

807 - > They'd never been invited to a podcast before. 808 - > They put it in their newsletter to 7,000 people. 809 - > They put it out to their social networks. 810 - > They promoted it.

811 - > So from starting from zero through being strategic and 812 - > going to the organization societies where I've got trusted 813 - > voice, trusted influence, I was able to grow and I immediately 814 - > got leverage, and then I got ratings and reviews early from 815 - > key people of influence when the relationships were nice and 816 - > high. 817 - > So think about who are organization societies that have 818 - > trusted data networks that you could hijack, that you could 819 - > invite on, that then they can send out to their audience 820 - > that's gonna boost your start.

821 - > And the other thing, as I mentioned before around Netflix, 822 - > um, you know, it's really important you don't just go onto 823 - > Netflix and watch one show of a new series. 824 - > You like to binge-watch it. 825 - > So we also stacked content, right? 826 - > So when we launched, we released a few episodes, and then we were 827 - > ensure we're into flow to ensure we can continue to deliver, and 828 - > we're always social listening and asking for feedback very, 829 - > very early on to ensure that we're delivering on what we 830 - > wanted to.

831 - > Um, so that would just be a couple of other strategic things 832 - > I would think about if I was launching a show. 833 - > John Tyreman: Well, for folks that are, are listening this far 834 - > into the episode, they just found a couple golden nuggets 835 - > that they can put into play when they launch their podcast. 836 - > Rob Hanna: There we go. 837 - > Well, look, it's been an absolute blast, John.

838 - > Congrats on everything you're doing. 839 - > It's been a real pleasure. 840 - > Um, yeah, hopefully we can collaborate again in the future, 841 - > but I'm, I'm, I'm passionate about this stuff, so I 842 - > appreciate you giving me the time today. 843 - > John Tyreman: And then I appreciate you.

844 - > Thank you so much.