Why Founders Shouldn’t Build Alone - with Katie Lewis and Matthew Stafford of 9others

Speaker A: Coming up in today's Ideaspace podcast, one

Speaker B: of the best ways to get help is to give help. So again, it's about that contributing and being curious and being helpful and being useful without the expectation of anything in return. But if you do that, you're gonna get help back.

Speaker C: The most incredible thing to have come from like a seed of an idea to really seeing something through, to fruition might be was just awesome.

Speaker B: You should be able to engineer this in your life so that you can be deliberately vulnerable with a small group of people, um, and try to help each other out.

Speaker A: Welcome to the Ideaspace Podcast. I'm Ben Hartley, head of IdeaSpace. IdeaSpace is a community of entrepreneurs, founders and their teams, many of them working alongside each other in one of our three offices based in and around Cambridge. Our members share knowledge, experience and expertise to help themselves and others in their high impact venture creation. Today on the Ideaspace Podcast, we're joined by Matthew Stafford and Katie Lewis, the co founders of nine Others, a ah, global peer network that's quietly become one of the most trusted spaces for founders to talk honestly about what it really takes to build a company. Matthew and Katie have spent years working alongside founders, investors, accelerators and venture builders across multiple ecosystems. And out of that experience, Katie became a simple but powerful insight.

Speaker D: Building a company can be incredibly lonely

Speaker A: and most founders don't have a safe space to talk about what's actually keeping them up at night. That insight became Nine Others, small curated dinners where founders come together not to pitch, but to share challenges, learn from peers and support one another. Over the past decade, that idea has grown into a global community of, ah, thousands of founders, and into their book, Find you'd nine Others, which captures the lessons they've learned around the dinner table. In this conversation, we talk about the real role of community and entrepreneurship, why asking for help is harder than it should be, what founders often misunderstand about investors and accelerators, and why your success almost always depends on the people around you.

Speaker D: Katie, Matthew, hello. Thank you for joining us for the ideas based podcast. Can I just start by putting this out to you both? Uh, you both spent years working with founders, investors, startup communities all over the world.

Speaker A: What first drew you into the startup world?

Speaker C: Shall I take a bit of a lead on this one, Matthew? To start with, go for it. I think it's been something that I've been really inquisitive about since quite an early age. So actually during my time at school, I set up my first proper business, which was producing packs of playing cards where we Advertised local tourism operators, um, in my last couple of years of high school and going into university. And so I think really from there, from quite a young age, the idea of being curious around business and seeing how there's ways that you can be adding value and creating things that other people value has always sort of sparked with me. Uh, and then from my time in university in New Zealand, I then made the move to the UK and I think actually that's where kind of this idea of sort of startup world and it being an ecosystem and being something that you could be part of really came through to fruition for me. And I was really drawn into that, into that community.

Speaker D: So really early on for you, basically? Yeah, it was, yeah. So, yeah. Uh, and how about yourself, Matthew?

Speaker B: Well, I think similar. It started early. If you, if you look back you can kind of see actually there were signs very, very early. And when I was at school I would be always trying to hustle around making extra money. I'm old enough so that my family was one of the first to have Sky TV, uh, in the 90s. So I would record programs and I would rent them out to my school friends because no one else had access to the Simpsons and films and all that sort of stuff. Uh, so looking back you can kind of see that. And then I started a T shirt company when I was 19. But then I, I don't know, then I sort of just went the conventional route and you know, worked for big companies and all that sort of stuff. But then quite a few years later when I, when I was at business school, I discovered venture capital and it's like, okay, this is the thing that I want to get involved with. You know, I've done computer science undergraduate. I'd seen some startups start appearing, you know, Twitter launched, Facebook launched, that sort of stuff. Um, and then went to business school and discovered that there were these small investment firms that would put little bits of money into lots of early stage companies. Uh, most of them might not work out, but the ones that did could work out really, really well. That was the attraction for me, just working across lots and you know, trying to help out and trying to keep out the way of in, in lots and lots of different little small companies that could get very, very big.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, well, interesting. So both, both having that early entrepreneurial spirit rather than, you know, some that might study finance and go straight into it without necessarily having that, um, sort ah, of lived experience with it. All worked across many parts of the, um, the startup ecosystem, whether it be as investors, uh, Advisors, venture builders, accelerators. How do you kind of explain to people outside that world what it is that you do?

Speaker C: With great difficulty, I think. No, it's. It is quite complex. But I suppose for myself anyway, I boil it down to being an enabler, so really being able to support other people who are on their own entrepreneurial journey to be creating, whether it's products, services, companies, new ventures that are adding value and really anchoring that back to building things that customers really want. So, you know, I think that's really at the thread of it. It's sort of supporting people, whether that's through sort of formal training, like having been, um, running accelerator programs, or if it's through connecting the dots with other people, so unlocking relationships and connections through what we do with nine. You know, it's really about making sure that if people are putting their time, energy and efforts and all of the finite resources that we have into building, you know, a new business and a new, A new venture, that they're doing so with as much kind of empowerment of building something that people really want as is possible. Not necessarily just thinking about wanting to build something that's, uh, an interest with an interesting technology, or developing a kind of cool widget or a fun solution, but actually really making sure that people are solving a big problem.

Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: I think it's a bit easier now to explain what I get up to. Yeah, I think because. Because now, you know, you can, I can sort of explain. Well, Facebook started and What, I mean, 20 years ago, but, you know, in our, in our lifetime, and that's grown from nothing to something very big. And then people have heard of Airbnb, they've heard of Uber. So these companies get established and grow fast and become household names. I think when I started in this world, in, you know, looking at it in sort of 2009, 2010, that was. It was much, much more difficult then because the conventional approach was to go work at some massive company that's been around for decades and decades. Um, and it was a bit weird in the uk, especially if you wanted to start your own company. Um, like that's what you would maybe do if you couldn't get a job at one of these big, prestigious companies. So back then it was a bit more difficult. But now, yeah, it's like Katie says, it's much, much easier.

Speaker D: Yeah, it's a very good point. And you touched on maybe some of those kind of exciting, uh, or standout startups. What's the kind of most exciting one that you've come Across Katie, I'll put

Speaker C: that to you, um, when I come back to time again is a company that was called Ubuntu Power, ah, and they were working in Africa, ah, working with a telecoms company in local villages to provide effectively like a power bank station where, um, local communities could char devices. Uh, and it had such a huge impact on people's lives. So not only charging kind of, you know, what we would think of perhaps as mobile phones or laptops and things, but even being able to charge batteries for lighting for people to be able to do homework or work in their homes after dark. And I just always think of that as being. When I met Juan, the founder, at the very early idea stage of that business, it was so complex, it required so many large organizations and sort of different stakeholders to want to help to move the needle on this, uh, big problem. He came from an appropriate background of having worked in the uh, energy sector and doing some consultancy in that area. So he knew some of these players that he could help unlock. And then when we started to see sort of images of the first kind of power charging stations being set up and the community engaging with them, how that helped children with their schoolwork, how it helped businesses, uh, being able to provide services and things, plus the obviously connectivity with the community, I just remember thinking, wow, that is the most incredible thing to have come from, like a seed of an idea to really seeing something through to fruition. Like that was just awesome. I have no doubt it was incredibly, uh, challenging. At least something that kind of continually comes to mind as being like awesome

Speaker D: and as you said, massive impact. But in environments that are so, um, unique, maybe difficult environments to set something up even physically, let alone infrastructure that might not have been in place for it. So, uh, yeah, yeah, a great example. Uh, uh, Matthew, you've been on both sides of the table in terms of, um, being a founder and being an investor, uh, and helping build ventures as well. Um, what's the one thing that you wish, uh, that founders knew about working with investors?

Speaker B: Oh goodness. I think something that we see, and it's not just for investors that Katie and I are constantly banging on about and that we've realized is what nine Others is about and why we found that so helpful is to build your network before you really need it. I was a bit of a reluctance networker 15 or so years ago. I thought it was a bit naff and you know, people were just there to hoover at business cards or try to sell you something or do these big events. And I don't Know, people were looking for somebody more interesting to speak to over my shoulder and all that sort of stuff. So I was really quite reluctant and found it uncomfortable but managed to bash on and figure out that actually these think of it like relationship building and building trust and getting to know people and being curious about people. And I think if you do that way ahead of time then it just makes, you know, just makes anything that comes after a bit easier. I mean things are all things are always going to be challenging you as an entrepreneur. You're doing things for the first time. Uh, your company might be doing something incredibly innovative but you're going to need people around you and you're going to need some help. And I think uh, the best entrepreneurs realize that early and start to build those relationships without, you know, without any expectation of anything in return. They try to be helpful, they try to foster their own community just because they're interested in people and there's lots of help that can, goes on and then yeah, all of a sudden, you know, a few months or years later, ah, you might need something. Um, and it's just, it's just more seamless to get that. And it's, I think Katie uh, talks about it like putting money in the bank. Right. So you're building these relationships, you're helping people, you're uh, connecting people, you're sharing experiences and trying to help out. And I think that's like money in the bank. And eventually, sure, you know, you're going to need something but it's an awful lot easier if you've got those trusted relationships up front. So yeah, build those kind of connections,

Speaker D: building networks before you need it. Yeah, that's great advice. And I think it's also pertinent to some of the startups that we have or some of the founders that are uh, quite sort of technical specialists. It might be that they're you know, a scientist that's developing something and um, not necessarily coming from a big business background and they will be creating a network of the um, academics or like minded science individuals, if you know what I mean. But in terms of that sort of business networking as well is, is so, so vital. Um, Katie, I'm going to put this one to you. You've worked with um, accelerators and helped so many founders grow. What's a misconception you often see about how accelerators or venture support works that

Speaker C: by turning up you'll get the answers. And uh, I think you've really got to be putting the work in, you know, to be understanding how the shared with you from an accelerator or a training program to an incubator, how does that really resonate and apply to you and to your new venture? Quite often I think we'd have people come who'd have that misconception of, oh, you're going to give me the playbook, you're going to give me the resources of how I do this exactly for my new brand new venture that hasn't been built yet. And actually it's those that are really hungry to take on examples and different ways of working or different layers of best practice from across a variety of businesses or industries even, and then working out which of those ways or tools is best for their new venture and feels right for them as also as a leader and as a founder of a business, what feels right for you to be for how you're going to be working? So I think the idea that accelerators have been around now, you know, more than a decade, and I think it's, you know, fair to say that there isn't any one set way of doing things, but if you come and you're prepared and you're ready to ask questions, so you're learning from people, learning from experts, and always asking questions to understand how that could be applied to your particular situation, that's how people really make, make the most of it. And then the other point is also that a lot of these programs, whether it's incubator spaces, accelerators, are so well connected within their own community and ecosystem, and that is the role of the program or the space to be making sure that there is those connections out into the wider community. How can you also be really taking the best advantage of that? And I think to Matthew's point earlier, it's about how then also you're contributing, uh, to that and not just there to take and have the expectation of like, oh, I'm part of this program, therefore you will give me. But also how you're showing up as a partner to that, uh, and building those relationships with those people.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, thank you. Really interesting. And also, again, pertinent to idea space in that kind of community sense. We definitely asked out of our founders. We're more sort of driven about the founder rather than the venture in a way and just really, uh, wanting people to share positively to the community. So how about talk about nine others? Um, so where did the idea come from? Was it either one of you or did it come out of, uh, the conversations or experiences you'd had?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, it was, it was definitely a. Yeah, it was definitely A group effort for both of us. So Katie and I were working together on a project in 2011 in London and it was all about investment readiness and trying to help young, mostly techie, high growth startups get investment and understand investment. So understand what an angel is, what a VC is, how to speak to those people, what they want and all that, all that sort of stuff. And so throughout 2011 we were running, uh, events to some mentoring events, some workshops, big networking events, all that kind of stuff to kind of like just help these founders figure out what investment was and what they needed and to get ready to get that investment. And it was just the most fantastic program. It was brilliant. It was, it was an, it was a roaring success and it was great fun to work on and it was, you know, it was government backed at the time so we didn't need to get into, involved in the nitty gritty of any of the deals that happened. But we just made this stuff happen and it was fantastic. As part of that we came up with the idea of doing uh, some dinners where the founders would get to meet investors. So we'd host a dinner. It would be like, I don't know, a dozen or 14 people, you know, a bunch of entrepreneurs, bunch of investors. And the entrepreneurs, we knew that they were ready for investment and the investors, we knew that they were ready, willing and able to invest. So the startups would pitch, investors would ask them questions, move on to the next one. And we go around the table like that and like I say, it was brilliant. They were off, they were off the chart, successful, led to loads of follow up, loads of investment companies growing, creating lots of wealth, all very, very good. But throughout that year we were running these dinners, um, and what happened in the last sort of 20, 30 minutes of every single one was that the founders would huddle together in a corner and talk to each other. And it used to really annoy us like, and Katie used to say, we got you here to talk to these investors. You are missing this opportunity to talk to these investors. Um, but then it happened often enough with different bunches of founders that we finally figured out what was going on. And what was going on was, you know, in those last 20, 30 minutes they'd kind of done the investor thing. And in those last few minutes they were talking to other founders who were in their shoes but not in their business about the normal everyday business of business problems because they didn't get to talk to those, you know, they didn't get to talk about those problems, um, at all. The Other networking events, including the ones that we were putting on, everything had to be brilliant, right? They were pitching, everything's up and to the right. It's all fantastic, you know, happy days. Um, or, you know, they were going home and their. I don't know, their partner at home is sick of hearing of it, of it. Their friends who work at big companies just don't understand what they're going through, but they would. So that's what they were doing in these last few minutes. So then towards the end of the 2011, you know, Katie and I would sit in the coffee shop early in the morning before work and we'd sort of figure out, right, is there something we can do to try and help just those founders figure out solutions to those everyday business challenges and sort of give them a place that they can talk about it. And that was the genesis of how nine others came about. Great.

Speaker D: I love that, you know, you. It's not so much sort of spotting an opportunity as you're just like, they need something, you know, these fans need that. So how does it run exactly, Kasey? I mean, it's grown now into a global network. I believe there's over 5,000 people that are actively involved or have been actively involved in it. So, yeah, can you just talk me through how someone might take part and what it is that they do?

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So we have, um, run a dinner once a month in London and in other cities around the world. And at that dinner there is yourself and nine other people. So 10 people around the table. And the opportunity is that everyone kind of briefly introduces themselves and then we really get into the nitty gritty of what's keeping you up at night. So every person there around the table is asked the same question, what's keeping you up at night? And then the group collectively starts sharing, whether it's further questions for clarification or, oh, I've been through that and this is what I did. Uh, but really importantly, this is what I did and it didn't work. And this is what I've found out later that actually has been working. Um, or in my business, this works. Or in this situation, I found this is really valuable. And it's not necessarily about coming together to get to the answer, but it's about sharing back to the founder with the question. Um, so it's really about being as useful. We often get recommendations for people to speak to other good people, book recommendations, like events that you should be going to. So it's all about kind of unlocking, unlocking those challenges. And I think it also enables people to feel not so lonely because I think running a business, a startup business, when times get tough, it can feel just so incredibly lonely. You know, you can't necessarily even talk to your own co founder because they might be part of the challenge that you're facing. You might not want to necessarily bring that to your board or your advisors and of course probably not appropriate to talk about with your team. So having a peer group that you can be sort of sharing these problems with and hearing that other people are also having different challenges as well is, you know, a really great sort of value add to being part of the community. And at the end of every dinner, uh, Matthew and I are writing up notes and sharing things around to help people be connected. And really the opportunity of just being at the dinner table is the kicking off point. And I think that's why, you know, 13 plus years later, you know, nine others is still a very active community, is because people keep coming back and keep engaging, keep asking questions. It's not a membership. People can just kind of engage as and when they need to at a point for their, for their, where they're at with their business. But we also have sort of some online tools that we use to help people stay, stay connected and have channels to keep asking. So, you know, the experience of being around the dinner table was sort of the thing, oh, I've set, I've sat in that seat, I've been vulnerable. But I've also given help and given support and given guidance to other people around the table. And that's sort of, again, that's the evenness of contributing to be part of the network by contributing your uh, thoughts on other people's challenges, but also being able to receive support and help yourself as well.

Speaker D: Uh, it sounds terrific because you want there to be a social element that relaxes people too. There's a lot of um, almost like imposter syndrome that people have and a very business environment that can feel more overwhelming. But as soon as there's a social element to it that really helps people open up and share more. I think what's one of the most surprising, um, or memorable things that's happened at a dinner? Has anything sort of come out of a, a dinner or something that's uh, memorable.

Speaker B: What I like about it is that in the early days some people said, oh, you should theme them. You know, you should do sector focus, just do games focused dinners, mobile, E commerce, you know, all these different themes that were there back in 2011 and it just didn't sort of feel right, didn't sort of sit right with us, but we didn't quite know why. And then, you know, a month or two later we hosted, you know, one of the, one of the usual dinners and you know, around the table were a bunch of, you know, tech startup founders, which was sort of typical for who we were with. But there was also a guy called Dan Land who started a coffee shop on Fleet street and he started with one and he, him and his co founder Jeremy grew it to 20 odd and sold it to private equity. Uh, and this was in the very early days, I think Dan's, Dan and Jeremy still just had one coffee, uh, shop, but it was where Katie and I would hang out before, before going to our day job. So we'd go there, talk about nine others and then go to our day job. So we got to know Dan who was running the coffee shop and he came along to a dinner and he was just the best person in those early days to come along because all these techies were talking about, oh, they could only do this if they got investment or they could only do that if they had their website done, or they could only do this if they had a techie co founder to build their app or all these sort of excuses. Right? Um, and, and Dan's just sort of sat back and took it all in. And then he said, you know what, this is so simple. Like he runs a coffee shop and all he thinks about is getting people in and out and getting money in the till. So he just cut through all of that BS of excuses of I can't do this until I have that, or I can't do that until I have this. Um, and that, I always remember it. And that was like early. Early.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it was like, ah, that's why we don't theme them. And that's why it's important to have this diverse network. So if you're doing something techy, hang out with a guy that runs a coffee shop because he'll just be the best value conversation you could have.

Speaker D: Great example. Uh, I love that. So the, the tagline says, your success requires the help of others. Why do you think so many founders resist asking for help?

Speaker B: You gotta be vulnerable. You gotta open up a bit and admit that things might not be going so well. Um, which is really, really difficult because when you're a founder, you're leading the business, you're supposed to. Well, people think you're supposed to know all the answers, but the guaranteed result of running a business and starting A business is gonna get hard and you're gonna be under massive pressure. So we would encourage people to, to seek help and actually one of the best ways to get help is to give help. So again it's about that contributing and being curious and being helpful and being useful without the expectation of anything in return. But if you do that you're gonna get help back and that's going to come in handy. And um, you know, it's not about complaining or telling everyone your problems the whole day long. You know, no one wants to hear that but there are, you should be able to engineer this in your life so that you can be deliberately vulnerable with a small group of people, um, and try to help each other out. And I think that's where it comes from. Right, 100.

Speaker D: Yeah. Um, so, so how do people actually get involved then? So you, you know, you obviously organize these. Do people um, go via the website and they. Is there a way of sort of finding out where you've got ah, the next dinner coming up or, or can people even start their own? I mean somewhere like Cambridge, is it, is it possible for them to start their own network here?

Speaker C: Absolutely, yes. So we have the nine Others, uh, dot com website and on there we have a newsletter that people can subscribe to so that they can see, sign up to so that they can see what's coming up um, on the calendar. So we share uh, when different meals are being hosted around um, uh, hosts and. Absolutely yes. If there's someone who's interested in hosting a nine others dinner and they want to follow our kind of format and use the 9 others name, then we're always open to those conversations. This year we just recently kicked off a series in Cheltenham which seems to be going really well. Last night and they had one last night. It's fantastic. So you know, people not having to necessarily come into London or be part of like a, ah, you know, a hub city necessarily to access this type of support I think is also really important. Yeah, absolutely. People are welcome to come. Each year we host two parties. We've got one coming up soon for our summer party and we also do a winter party. And that can be a really nice way for people who, you know, interested and wanting to come along but perhaps haven't been able to make a dinner yet can come and join and meet people who have and other good people again they're willing to help each other out, you know. So we end up now with people who come across us because they're actively searching and looking for something that they can be involved in. And then we have a lot of referrals, a lot of people who come to a meal, then sharing it with other good people in their network when they're having chats and coffees and things going, oh, you should go along to that

Speaker D: Sounds great. And you've, um, published a, a book which is, uh, find your nine others, I guess, you know, that's obviously come out. The experiences that you've gained with the dinners and with the network. How did that come about? Was that something that you'd planned very early on, or was it a case of, wow, we're, we've got, we're gaining so much knowledge and experience here, we need to put it down and share it?

Speaker B: A bit of both, actually. So we had it. We've had a Google Doc called the book since 2012. And Katie and I would kind of just throw in things that we'd learned, interesting things, interesting stories, little anecdotes and bits and bobs like that, uh, from time to time. And then we got to having done nine others for 10 years and we thought, oh, come on, we've got to, you know, I mean, it's like we were saying, it's Chatham House ruling everything, but in the right way. We've got to get some of these lessons out to a wider audience because it'll be, again, it's about being useful. We want to be useful. So, yeah, so we, so Katie and I just thought, right, we've got to do a book. Let's crack on with that. So we sat on calls every weekend for, uh, quite a few months, uh, getting all of these stories out there onto a proper, you know, into. And growing the Google Doc called the Book and. Yeah, and then got that published a couple of years ago. And really the, the chapters are the questions that you should ask yourself. So the main thing is like, what's keeping you up at night? And then there are, uh, we go through other questions that we think founders need to ask themselves. You know, things like, can I, shall I, shall I? True. Trust my guts. Can I do this on my own? You know, how do I get the right people around me? All the, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker D: Yeah, it sounds great, but probably, um, a bigger undertaking than you'd realize, getting the Google Doc into an actual book.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, we had some help, I

Speaker A: was going to say a lot longer.

Speaker C: It took a lot longer than we were expecting.

Speaker D: Yeah, it seems to be getting great traction and reviews, et cetera. So, um, yeah, where can people find the book?

Speaker C: So there's also a link to the book on our website. So that's through nine the number nine others dot com.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker C: And it's for sale through Amazon as well. So yes, those are the two main channels that people find.

Speaker D: Yeah, great, thank you. Um, so I'd like to talk a little bit more about community. You both mentioned the importance of it and because Ideaspace is a community of founders and startups, um, how do you describe the Cambridge community from seeing it from the outside?

Speaker B: Oh, goodness. I think I see Cambridge as obviously very academic, high standards, lots of bright people and we often hear of, you know, kind of Oxford Cambridge links and that there should be collaborations and people are trying to make more of it. And then we do occasionally hear of uh, I think SwiftKey was one of the ones that springs to mind, which was a Cambridge company that did extremely well. I think it was acquired by Microsoft, was super successful. Um, I think of it more as like quite hard technology coming out of this place. But you know, I mean I'd encourage people just to get involved and the more of it the better. And whether that's, you know, it doesn't matter what the business is, just have a go, doesn't have to be super technical, so just crack on.

Speaker D: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And in terms of um, you know, founders, not necessarily just within this community, but what's the sort of single biggest challenge that founders face in your experience?

Speaker C: Money. Whether that's cash, you know, cash coming into the business through sales or equally raising investment and having the right sort of measures of um, impact in place in order to be able to convince investors to part with their own hard cash. Um, but I think cash is always a big challenge that people are facing. That and probably talent, access to the right talent, people who have got enough experience to be able to really add value to the business, but also have a similar sort of entrepreneurial mindset that's required to be part of a startup. Um, and not afraid to sort of hustle and get stuck in to doing more than what a job description might say. You know, it's sort of a very different environment to something that's a bit more traditional. So I think those are the two key things that we, well, that we see quite regularly is sort of uh, cash. So how do I, you know, how am I attracting these customers, how am I securing these customers? Um, how am I sell, you know, the different routes for, for sales and then is another one that does come up and sometimes, you know, investment feels like it's the answer, uh, and it might not be. So, you know, sort of also having those kind of hard questions back to yourself or back to the people around the table. To kind of Matthew's point earlier, it's what are the excuses that you might be telling yourself as to what you need to unlock the next thing? But actually maybe you just need to focus on sales.

Speaker D: And with that investment as well, people sort of underestimate what they might need and also the time it takes to get it. So it's always, um, I was going to say late. By the time they've got some money, start thinking about your next round as early as you possibly can.

Speaker C: And I think that comes back to the point around that you need to build the network before you need it. So people quite often get to a point in their business and they're like, oh, right now I need to go out and raise investment. And they're starting from that point where they recognize as that's what they're wanting to do for their business. And then they're starting to go out and build the relationships and connect with the investment community. And the commentary and the kind of engagement is like, oh, I've got this business. Would you like to invest in it? And it's like, well, who are you? I don't know who you are. Like, I'm being approached all of the time for funding. I know nothing about your business. What have you overcome to get here? What have you created? What value have you created? And so I think if, uh, founders are thinking about whether they might be looking to raise investment in the future, then starting to build relationships with investors before you're going to them for cash makes those conversations just so much easier in the future because they've felt like they've been part of your journey. Maybe you're going to ask them for some advice on something. They might be a subject matter expert or a business model expert in your area, so sort of going and asking for advice, uh, to build the relationship and then they can see how you're applying that advice, how you're approaching, you know, different challenges and sharing sort of updates with them to keep them in a breath, uh, in the, uh, loop of what's being developed with your business, then being able to go to them and say, oh, by the way, we're looking to raise investment and open an

Speaker D: investment round, um, uh, on the sort of community front, you've obviously been involved, both of you, pre and post Covid in this, in this world. Do you think that entrepreneurial communities have, um, gotten stronger post Covid or uh, is it somehow weakened due to the, the more kind of virtual interfaces that people can have with each other?

Speaker B: Oh goodness, that's a good question. I think. I mean there has been good things come out of that because it's easier and it feels more comfortable to connect with anybody anywhere. So I think that's a huge advantage. It's sort of more seamless to connect with people anywhere in the world and you can have calls and it's just not such a big deal that you're uh, not in the same city or country or whatever. But then I think also off the back of COVID it's a bit too easy as well sometimes to have calls with people. You know, I try to have fewer calls and yeah fewer calls and meet more people for coffee. You know, I think there's no substitute really for sitting down and breaking bread and looking at someone's eyes and that kind of stuff. So I would encourage people to sure access, you can, you can access anyone in the world and that's fantastic. Definitely take advantage of that. But if you, if people are local to you or you do think actually getting on a plane might make a difference. Yeah, do that.

Speaker C: 100% agree with that. I think it's almost harder as well to sometimes find those moments for that crossover. Pre Covid, you're pretty much guaranteed that everyone's going to be in central London or a central hub Monday to Friday. So the chance to find a coffee before work or meet for lunch and after work. But now people have sort of created with this hybrid environment, people have created their own timetabling that works and find those opportunities where you can have crossover becomes more difficult. So you have to be really purposeful about going out and coming into a hub, into a town to make those connections happen in person and not just take it for granted that you can develop a relationship over zoom.

Speaker D: And if you're building a sort of startup hub within a city somewhere that doesn't have one, what would be the sort of three key ingredients you'd have?

Speaker B: Think very, very long term, don't put it on a spreadsheet and think you can figure out what's going to happen with who and when is two.

Speaker C: Katie third I think it's about having a lot of open door opportunity and inviting as many different people in from the community. You know, whether it's going to sharing about it with local hospitals and doctors, centres as to, you know, these are things that are happening within our space and this, these are the things that you might be, these are the Types of people you might be able to meet with and also childcare providers and schools and you know, and universities and the businesses and you know, and libraries and all just thinking almost of like the whole entire city infrastructure as being an opportunity to engage, to engage people. Because bringing the variety of perspectives and ideas to the table is really important for those that are setting up and founding businesses. But also they could be their customers, they could be their users. And so starting to have conversations really early on with people who are not only interested in what's happening, what's new and what's happening, uh, in innovation and in technology and things, you know, is then starting to understand their language, how are they talking about it, what are the pains that they're really facing. So the more opportunities to run, uh, whether it's a workshop or a talk or a session on a topic, on a subject area and not just opening that to, you know, technical, the technical community or the startup founder community, but actually opening that to the broader community, the more valuable ones.

Speaker B: You m. Just never know what's going to happen. I think that's a mistake. Sometimes community spaces make is that they think, they think if they, I don't know, if they do this thing and they try to figure out this magic formula, then they know what's going to happen. They know what's going to be, what the result is going to be. Which yeah, you should have uh, a, you should have a direction to go in, but you should think longer term and just not try to run it at a granular level because like Katie said, you get all those people involved and you do all those things. It would be a bit weird if nothing amazing happened. Right. So you just got to keep going and then you'll be able to connect the dots backwards. Thinking fantastic. This wouldn't have inviting Dan to the dinner where he's running a coffee shop. I mean we could easily have said oh no, he shouldn't be there because he's not wearing a tech starter up. But you know, we just invite good people along and get good people into nine others and other communities and yeah, it'd be weird if nothing good happened.

Speaker D: Yeah, that's such a good point. So just in sort of um, in terms of your own personal kind of reflections or things that you. Advice you've received, uh, you know, or I wouldn't say just. Or experiences that you've had, I'm interested in sort of picking into those. What's the best piece of advice you've ever, ever received, Katie?

Speaker A: And maybe what's the worst as well.

Speaker C: The best piece of advice I've received quite recently actually is, um, having an abundant mindset. And I think it can be really tough as a founder where you think that every opportunity, things are really scarce, there's limited opportunities, limited conversations that you're having, or you have to get this one across the line, this is the one that will make the difference. But actually if you kind of flip the narrative in your head and you think like there a is, is a world full of opportunity out there, you need to be having lots of interesting, good conversations and being able to manage that, but really thinking kind of with that optimistic tone, um, and not having a sense of like, desperation in your conversations with prospects or clients of like, I just have to get your, I have to make payroll at the end of this month, I have to get you across the line. But instead stepping away from that and just really thinking about, um, through an abundant mindset lens, I have found to be an absolute game changer personally. And it was the best piece of advice I've ever received. Uh, the worst piece of advice, uh, would be around hiring people who have, who match the job description and then expecting that they can do the job without you setting the expectations that you have of that job. People will always often say in startups is hiring people who are qualified to do, who've got the experience, who've done it before, who can come in and hit the ground running with you, which I think can be great as long as you're then also managing the expectations as to how that plays out within your startup and what you're wanting to achieve with that team member.

Speaker D: Both great answers. Okay, so over to you.

Speaker B: Ah, uh, so many good things I've heard over the years, but the one, the one I've been thinking a lot about recently, the good advice is just to lose the fear. Like I think to myself, we all get nervous, we all get anxious, we're all trying to achieve amazing things. And sometimes it's, yeah, you feel a bit reluctant or it feels uncomfortable. But then if I just ask myself, is this coming from a place of fear? I can get over it. And you just gotta push yourself. And you know, we all have challenges in life and the things that go on in startups and raising investment and communities, it's not as bad as some of the things that we've had to deal with. So just like, lose the fear is what I think about more and more. And I think bad advice, I don't know, that's the. Something sprang to mind which Was like, from my, When I was a kid, I can't remember exactly what we were doing, but my parents told me, oh, no, no, no, you can't do that. It's not the done thing. And I was like, I just rebelled against that. I was like, why, you know, don't tell me what I kind of can't do, like, if it's not the done thing done. So conventions. I don't like conforming. Always.

Speaker D: Both. I love both those answers. It's great. Um, so what about, um, a moment where you've completely failed at something? Well, you don't have to.

Speaker B: So you don't, you don't.

Speaker D: Was that.

Speaker B: Yeah. A sharp intake of breath. Um, well, when I was. Before I started working at the investment firm, which I was at when I met Katie, I was trying to hustle, doing all sorts of different things, entrepreneurial things. Um, just after business school and, you know, I was importing stuff from China on Alibaba. I was trying to export stuff to my friend's friend in Kenya, and it was all pretty much a failure. Um, I had solar powered iPhone chargers that wiped my friend's phone. I had, you know, it was a complete learning experience. I'm so embarrassed. Um, but, you know, I buy USB memory sticks that were hit near 2 megabytes rather than 2 gigabytes of whatever it said on the packet was just, just, just, just so dodgy and a scam. Um, so, yeah, that failed pretty miserably, I remember. And then I was exporting stuff to, uh, Kenya thinking that, oh, yeah, they like all this British, British goods and I can export out there and make some money and it's just never made any money.

Speaker A: But it's, it's, it's so important to

Speaker D: share these things, isn't it? I mean, I don't know. I, I hear sometimes that, you know, our, uh, mindset, uh, on this side of the Atlantic, in terms of embracing failures or even championing failures, you know, and I do think in America this probably is a little bit more of a kind of, um, you know, you wear it as a badge of honor for the amount that you've failed in a, in a business sense. And we should get a little more open about the failures, a. Because it just shows that we're all just trying our best and there's so much luck involved as well in all of this. But it also just encourages people to try and as you said before, to, to be less fearful of things if you, if you failed and, you know, you're still waking up the next day and can still able to fail again, then, you know, it's not that, not that bad.

Speaker B: Yeah, but just go, run, you know, run towards it a bit as well. Run. Deal with those kind of potential failures. And yeah, you know, I'll never import, uh, solar, solar powers. I, I put charges again. So I learned, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't a failure at all. It was a brilliant lesson.

Speaker D: In fact, it was a failure for him when his phone was wide, of course.

Speaker B: So embarrassing.

Speaker D: How about you, Case?

Speaker C: So my biggest failure, uh, that was expensive and timely was recruiting salespeople. Before as founders, we could really sell repeatedly what it was that we were building. So sort of thinking that, oh, if we recruit someone in who can, who's got the pedigree of sales experience, that they'll be able to do it on our behalf. And I think actually, as founders is you're the best people to be selling your product and service. You know it, you know why it's different. You know, the problem that you're addressing, you know, inside and out, you're the one who's the most passionate about solving it. You're the one who's waking up in the middle of the night and, uh, have the fire in your belly in the morning. And so I think, and this was no reflection on the skills of the salespeople that we hired, but I think we just, we hadn't got the business to a mature enough stage for them to be able to come in and have, have the playbook, have the operating guidelines, uh, and all of the different sort of tools for them to be able to really run with it and sell on the business's behalf. Um, so that was incredibly expensive and, uh, such a lot of time because we did it multiple times. We didn't learn the lesson the first time around. And then I think the challenge actually, like anything in life, if you're not learning from it, it just starts kicking, kicking you a bit harder and costing you a bit more. So I think, you know, if I was to give debt as a, as a failure that I've experienced and lived through to other founders, I think it is, you really need to make sure that you are like 100% on, um, pack of selling what it is, on track of selling what it is that you're building repeatably before looking to other people to help you scale that effort in a business.

Speaker D: Yeah. Thank you, um, for sharing that. I would say of all of your successes, um, are there bits in the, in the book that you might have been able to express your own successes, or is it mainly about what you'd learned from the, um, other founders through the. Through the dinners?

Speaker B: Well, we'd done something for 10 years, I think that was pretty good. We never quite knew where nine others was going to go. You know, we thought, okay, this is a good idea. Does anybody else think it's a good idea? So we tried it out and we liked it. So we did another one. Did another one. And then, you know, people kept coming back and introducing new people. So that was good. So we kept that going and, uh, lots of, lots of good things came out of that. But yeah, the book is really more about the lessons that we've learned from around the dinner table and some little anecdotes at the end from founders who've been there and who are still in there doing it.

Speaker D: Ah, yeah, because I need to have you both back on individually to talk about, as I said, your own journeys, either from. And the investor side or venture building side. Um, which, uh, yeah, which we'll. Which we'll have to do. Can I just ask maybe something that you believed early on in your careers that you've completely changed your mind about? Is there something you sort of a firm belief that you had that's been.

Speaker C: Oh, yes, um, I'll go first on this one, Matthew. Mine is that it's actually a phrase, a quote that Matthew introduced me to, but it's the other people around you are there to help you and save you. And the idea that, you know, I'm working with people who are more senior or more, More tenured, that they'll have the answers for you. I've learned that the quote I often refer back to is that your courage starts to flourish when you realize that no one is coming to save you. And that really it all comes down to you, what you're doing, where you're investing your time, where you're putting your energy and efforts, uh, and to kind of remove the fallacy that someone else will have the answer, uh, or that someone else will be able to unlock the next opportunity for you, I think has been. Been an incredibly. A lesson that I've learned over time. And it's actually quite interesting because then being part of a community and going to other people for help, perhaps you could see it as being a wee bit conflicting. But I think more in the environment of, in your work environment or working perhaps with people who are aboard or investors and things, it's also being really, uh, responsible for charging forward for what it is that you're wanting to Achieve.

Speaker D: Uh, thank you for sharing that. And Matthew,

Speaker B: I m. Think I realized that you don't need permission, I think is one thing that came to mind. And it's kind of like to Katie's point as well, it's like, you know, realize that people should realize that they're capable of achieving incredible things.

Speaker C: Things.

Speaker B: So act accordingly.

Speaker D: Yeah, both. Again, great. It's really nice when, when you. That there's so many like sound bites that come in. I'm not surprised you've ended up writing a book because there's like loads of sound bites you can grab, um, and hold from. From both of you. You're gonna, you're gonna need another book. Sorry? I've realized you're gonna need another book.

Speaker B: It's in.

Speaker D: All of a sudden you're listening to. Katie was almost wiping her brow. Oh my gosh. In fact, speaking of books, is there um, one sort of book other than yours that founders should, um, should read?

Speaker B: Um, so, uh, my favorite of the last few years is the Courage to be Disliked. Yeah, I think it's exceptional. And then I think I've realized if I've read that and I've read that again and then the only other stuff I need to read is Robert Greene, which is like 48 laws of power, laws of human nature, 33 laws of strategy. I mean the guy's just a genius.

Speaker D: Okay, thank you, Katie.

Speaker C: I think I've started reading the Key People of Influence, the Daniel Presley book. And I think that's really interesting. Sort of understanding how you can be working with and influencing people around you, um, and influencing your own future. I think it's a really interesting, really, really good read. And he also does some great podcasts. If you're not a reader, you can also be listening to him to, to get his sound bites on how he's achieved some incredible success.

Speaker D: Yeah. Thank you. What about a favorite, um, productivity hack? Is this something that you do that makes you kind of more productive in what you do?

Speaker C: Yes. The best thing, the best tool that we got this year, Matthew actually sent me one is a, a paper pen to paper weekly, um, planner. And it is literally just a four size page broken down into your different days within the m overview of your weekly goals. And that is absolutely fantastic. Where you sit on a Sunday night, Sunday afternoon and you just think about the week ahead, where you're looking at, where you're spending your time and what's missing from your week for you to feel really fulfilled. Great. To also recognize if you're only going to be on zoom this week and not in person meeting anyone for coffee and making your way into town. It can also highlight those sorts of things. Uh, but it enables me to kind of make sure I'm baking in with enough exercise in my week. Am I going to be working late a couple of days? Because I've got events happening or workshops happening and things. So I find it to be a week on week. Productivity hack.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: Great, thank you, thank you. Katie loves a list and a planner and all that sort of stuff. My, my best productivity hack really is that I run four times a week. So I go out running, running around in the countryside near my house and often don't take a phone. That's my. I've really, I've realized because over the years I thought, oh, I should meditate or I should sit in on like, I don't know, do Zen yoga or whatever. And I'm like, oh no, hang on a minute. My running is my meditation. So, uh, I run four times a week pretty religiously and yeah, sometimes take a podcast, but sometimes that's just my space to kind of, of get away from it all.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And that helps me in my work immensely. I can tell if I've like last weekend it was too hot to run, so I didn't bother. I could tell.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Interesting. Um, thank, thank you for sharing that. Um, we're running out of time or we've run out of time, which is, um.

Speaker B: We'll come back, we'll come back.

Speaker D: Yeah, please do. Obviously, because as I said individually, it's so nice to have had you both um, here together. Um, you know, obviously talk about nine others which, um, which is brilliant. And I, I personally want to get involved. Ah. And I'm sure lots of listeners as well. But you've both got such rich experiences individually, as I said, whether it be, uh, on the investing side and venture building side of things, which we weren't going to have time to get into unfortunately. But how can people, um, find you, follow you, contact you each, uh, to

Speaker B: find out a bit more, uh, I'm on Twitter. M. Stafford. I gave up LinkedIn last week again. Uh, I deleted it for a year a couple of years ago. And uh, last week, uh, I've given it up again. Right. So I'm on Twitter or you can find my email. I'm quite happy to get emails. Matthew. Uh, nineothers.com okay, great, thank you, Matthew.

Speaker D: And then.

Speaker C: And Katie, I'm on LinkedIn. I've deleted the Twitter. So I'm on LinkedIn. My name is Katie Lewis and it's katielewis66 after the LinkedIn.com uh, and I'm also very happy to receive emails, so. Katieneothers. Com.

Speaker D: Brilliant. Okay, well, thank, uh, you so much again for joining us. And then, um, we'll sort of wave bye bye to Katie on the Zoom. And then, um, Matthew and I are actually going to go, uh, into IdeaSpace itself and have a look around and um, talk about Cambridge Enterprise, a bit more about the ecosystem. Sorry you couldn't have joined, Katie, but next time.

Speaker C: Absolutely next time. I look forward to it. Ben, thank you so much.

Speaker D: Brilliant. No, thank you for sharing. I know, um, um, lots of our audiences will find so much of what you've, um, talked about about useful, but also being able to follow it up and follow both as well. So thank you.

Speaker C: Appreciate it. Thanks, Bean.

Speaker D: See you, May. Bye.

Speaker B: Bye bye, Katie.

Speaker A: For more information or any inquiries about joining IdeaSpace, please contact us via ideaspace.cam.ac.uk or via any of our social media channels.

Speaker B: Sam.