Episode 175-Making Strategic Lateral Moves: Insights for Law Firm Partners from a Top Legal Recruiter

You're listening to Counsel to Counsel, a podcast I launched in 2018. On this show, we explore how lawyers can build satisfying and successful professional lives. There have been enormous changes in the practice of law in the decades since I became a member of the bar. On the show, I bring you conversations with attorneys who have charted interesting career paths as the profession has evolved. I'll speak with consultants who are helping the legal community navigate these changes. We dive into strategies, mindsets and ideas that can help you grow your practice and grow in and out of our profession. And now, here's today's episode. Welcome back everybody. Just a reminder that if you're listening to Counsel to Counsel on one of the audio platforms like Spotify or Apple Podcasts, you could also find us now on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, it's nice to have you here. For the last two decades, lateral partner movement has been a defining feature of the legal market. Until the 1990s, it was more common for lawyers to join a firm as an associate. And if they stayed, they would move up to partnership ranks and stay put. Today, more partners than ever are exploring moves, sometimes for better platforms, sometimes for compensation, sometimes for alignment, and sometimes because something just isn't working anymore. But making a move is one of the highest stakes decisions a partner can make. Done well, it can accelerate a practice and improve quality of life. Done poorly, it can damage client relationships, internal reputation, and long term trajectory. Today we're going to unpack why partners move, what firms are really looking for, how to properly vet opportunities, and the mistakes that can quietly undermine what should be appropriate. Great transition. I'm so pleased to introduce my guest today, Scott Love. Scott is a top legal recruiter who works with AmLaw 100 and 200 corporate and finance partners to help them make smooth, low risk transitions to better platforms. Scott is also the host of the Rainmaking podcast, the top 2% global podcast with more than 300 episodes focused on business development and practice growth. I recently had the chance to be a guest on Scott's podcast to talk about my book. So I'm especially looking forward to turning the tables and digging into his insights on lateral partner movement. Scott, welcome to the show. Thank you Steve. I'm really excited to be here and it's great to always see you. Scott, you've built your career around helping partners make major transitions. How did you get into legal recruiting and how has your philosophy or approach evolved over time? So I got into it kind of in a circuitous way. I started recruiting in 1995. Steve, before the Internet back when there was no such thing as sending emails even. I was in a different niche at the time. And I started a training company in 2002. I got really good at recruiting. I liked teaching people. So I built a training company, later sold it in 2016, but ended up writing books, creating content. Over 4,500 recruiting and staffing companies from 36 countries invested in my resources. And so a lot of my closest and best clients as a coach and consultant and trainer were legal recruiting firms. For example, in 2003, I spoke at Major Lindsay Africa's meeting, which when it was Major Hagen in Africa. And that was my first introduction to what legal recruiting was. And then in 2009, I said, you know, I want to get out of my recruiter training business and do more recruiting again. I think I'll get into legal. So a lot of the people I was coaching, coaching, I said, I won't charge you for coaching. You help me understand legal. And that was my entry into it. And 2010 was when I really kind of made that commitment. And that was the time that I moved to Washington. Cause I knew I needed to be in a major market so I could have a huge volume of meetings in a very close period of time with clients. So I've met with over 70 firms. So that's when I got into it. My niche is just partners. Two years ago I niched into corporate and finance partners. I wanted to become a specialist. So I do corporate deal partners. I'm really involved in the deal space. I went to DealMax last week via ACG, corporate M& a private equity investment management than anything on the finance side, whether it's structured finance, securitization, real estate, finance, project finance. So those are my two practice areas that I focus in. And I say the one thing that's really changed over the years for me at least, is understanding the nuance between those two different practices and how they compare to everything else. Most of my placements before that were IP on the patent and the trademark side, patent prosecution, litigation at trademark. I've done antitrust litigation, labor and employment placements, done group mergers. I've done firm mergers, merging a small firm into a big firm. So I've seen a lot. And I think the one thing that's changed and the industry is that it's gotten a lot busier. I think law firms have become more sophisticated in understanding not just how they practice and run their organizations more effectively, but in terms of the lateral partner recruiting. There are still some deficits in there. I can talk about. But I think the firms have gotten really good at integrating new people in and knowing how to vet new prospective partners to make sure it is a good fit. Because at the end of the day, it's what I try to do is create that mutual satisfaction of needs between the partner or the group and the firm so that everybody's truly excited about that combination. And the intention is that it's going to be a good long term fit where there's mutual satisfaction of needs between both parties. Let's start with the big picture. What are the most common reasons you see partners considering a lateral move right now? I think in general, I put them in two buckets. One of the reasons partners leave is because of leadership issues, and the other one is strategy issues. Those in general are the two reasons why partners move. Okay. Any other reasons that you see that sort of come up with the regularity? I think we could look at more deeply among strategy. I'll start with that. There's several situations I've seen where, number one, a partner might be conflicted. A firm brings in another group or there's a big change and that partner's practice just can't fit. He or she needs to go to a different firm, which is bittersweet because they've done well. But then sometimes going to a new firm, it's the same game, same rules, but a different strategy, different esprit de corps, different jersey. Sometimes that gives partners lift. Other reasons related to strategy could be their particular practice and what they want to do just isn't a fit for everybody else. It can also kind of look at leadership where what they do just isn't as much of a priority. They're not getting a lot of attention from the leadership. So I'd say those are kind of among those two areas. Those are some specific examples of each of those. Okay, so you host the Rainmaking podcast, which focuses on marketing and business development. And you know, I have to say the reason why we're talking right now is because you're really you. You've been very visible over the last few years, and somewhere along the line, I start seeing you all the time on my feed. I was listening occasionally to your podcast podcast, and it's great. It's a great podcast. Thank you. But I'm wondering, like, you're a recruiter, you make your money placing lawyers. Why are you investing time and energy in this podcast? The Rainmaking podcast? Yeah. In a word, it's about trust. And because if you think about my target market, partners in big law firms, they're trained to be untrusting and judicious about where they invest time and energy. Right. I totally understand that. And I think it also coincides with what happened in 2021, where everybody that hated being a lawyer said, I think I'll be a legal recruiter. And so, you see, I'd say maybe about 70% of our industry are people that are trying to get lawyers to move one firm to another that have maybe less than three years of experience doing that. That's the overall majority of legal recruiters. And so I knew I had to do something. And this is during COVID I like learning things, and I realized, what is it that every partner truly wants? They don't want to talk to a head on her until they're ready to make a move. But how often does that happen? And so I wanted to give people a reason to connect with me over the long term without being spammy and annoying. And part of my job is to be annoying. You know, hi, I'm a complete stranger. I'd like to talk to you about making a life move. But. And I think that when you look at. Relationships are built over time, and the frequency of contact is a variable in building trust with people. So I realized I want to give people something that they eagerly want to hang on to, because everything I do in my whole business, it's all about creating opportunities that serve other people's interests. And so I realized I'm over Covid. I'm like, what is it that every partner cares about? They care about getting more clients, about getting more business from existing clients. They care about growing closer to their clients and building trust with them. So I thought, why don't I create something like that? I did some research. There was no other podcast on client development for professional services. And so I was proud of the fact that I started something, I made adjustments, and that's when I realized I'm creating something that really helps people, regardless of them connecting with me, which is totally fine. So We've got over 300 episodes on the show. Half of them are authors like you. And so I've read all of their books. I forced myself to read all the books there. So also, it's kind of opened my mind up to how I can learn from that, but by giving people something that benefits them. And over time, they listen to a show. Listen to a show. And recently, I've had clients on there as guests also. And so, in a word, like I mentioned before, it helps me to build trust in the market because I work in a Hyper competitive industry with no barriers to entry. Anybody can be a legal recruiter. And I wanted to be different. I wanted to create something that gives people something of value, even if they don't work with me again. And now I've gotten to the point where I get a lot of referrals. A lot of people that listen to the show, they'll reach out to me with referrals. A lot of BD coaches, career coaches like you in legal. I appreciate that. I'm grateful for that. But the overarching philosophy was, what can I do to serve people and give them something even if they don't ever work with me? And that's what we did. Can you just like quickly connect the dots to the lawyers who might be listening to this? Like, what's the lesson? Because lawyers, I mean, it takes a lot of energy to do a podcast. I know you have people helping you, including the producer Zhelko, who you introduced me to, who's great. But what are the lessons for lawyers about their business development? I'd say find ways so that you become top of mind and you're the kind of person that people want to work with. Selflessness is a big part of that. Going out of your way to give things to people. For example, somebody that was on my show, she gave me a lead on a conference I want to go to. Wow. I really appreciate that. That's really helpful. She's someone I want to help out in return. So I think if we could kind of distill, I'll give you kind of three different bullet points on this. One of them is be the kind of person that's a giver, not just a taker. Look for ways to serve people. Number two, find ways to dangle a shiny lure of content or reasons why people want to stay connected with you. Let me give you another example. My realtor sold a house, or he sold us our house in 2019. We refinanced at the peak low. I don't think I'm ever going to move Steve. So he still keeps in touch with us every month. There's some sort of a reach out over the holidays. Here's some holiday recipes over the summer. Here's some vacation places you might want to consider. His most recent communication to us was just a note that said, just wanted to let you know and remind you that I'm well connected in the housing industry. I know people that do lawn maintenance, home repairs, painters, renovations, other contractors. If I can ever connect you with any of them, let me know. And I thought that's just so brilliant because I'm keeping him in mind. I referred people to him now that are going to buy a house from. So that's the second point is be the kind of person that stays visible by offering something that can be useful, even if they don't ever work with you again. That's how you do it. And I think number three is consistency. I think when you reach out to people and connect with them, it can't be the only time you connect with them. You can't contact people only to sell them things, and that becomes annoying. If the only communication they hear from you is, buy from me, buy from me, buy from me. They start to tune you out. So those are the things I've learned from it. And that can be something that can help other people listening to the show, too. Steve, I love the example you gave because when I talk about this topic about staying top of mind, I always mention the fact that we've had our house painted five times, and I think four of those times over the last 30 years were different painters. And we liked every painter that painted our house, more or less. But at the time we were ready to have our house painted, somebody else was having their house painted and the prior painters hadn't kept in touch with us, which, you know, whatever, it's fine. And so being able to stay top of mind. Yes. So, so critical. And your podcast, I'm sure, is helping you a lot. It sounds like it is. It is. And I think it's when I realized, I don't remember how many episodes I was into it, I started looking at who is my quote unquote customer? Is it the listener? It is the listener, but it's also the guest. And so we've come up with systems and strategies, myself and my team, to help our guests get more visibility from this, because we know our guests are in this ecosystem where they could bring opportunities to me. I could bring them opportunities also. And so I've kind of taken that same playbook into other areas in which I network to where how can I be involved in that ecosystem and be someone that's a giver and not just a taker? Okay, great. Great advice. I'm sure your guests on your podcast talk about this because it's a podcast about business development, right? Absolutely. Yeah. All right, let's dig in a little bit into how you work as a recruiter. How do you actually help partners navigate a move from the first conversation through landing at a new firm? We have a specific process, I believe, in one of My company's four core values is process. I even created a separate site called partnersonthemove.com where I put resources that partners can go to, even if they don't work with me, that can help them move. But the first thing is understanding a process. We have our process in a graphic flow chart where it shows exactly what happens next. And when I think moving from one firm to another, it sounds simple. Some people call me and say, well, I know the client. I'm just going to work with them directly. I'm like, good luck. Because there's a lot of speed bumps that you don't know about. And nine times out of 10, it didn't work out with that firm because something happened. Maybe it was the conflicts, maybe it was a subtlety of communication, whatever it was. And so that's why I tell partners that I work with. I say I'm the midwife in the placement process. There's a lot that can go wrong. And I've done this hundreds of times and I know where the speed bumps are and I can make it a smooth process for you. But I'd say where it starts is understanding what the partner's motivations to move are. If a partner tells me all I want to do is make more money, I'm not going to work with that person. There has to be more to it than that. If they want to make more money, they should go renegotiate their comp with their managing partner because that's gonna save a lot of time if that's what they really want. I think what? Again, going back to what I mentioned earlier, it's either strategy reasons or leadership reasons. First thing I try to do is understand what is their motivation to move. Second thing I try to understand what are the goals that they have that they can't accomplish in their current firm. If they can accomplish the goals in their current firm, I'm not gonna talk em into making a move. And the third part of it is understanding what the ideal situation looks like. Sometimes I work on a retained basis with a very small number of firms. But because I've met with 70 firms, I've got placement agreements with 80 firms. I've read 50 law firm LPQs. I've made placements in two dozen firms because I've got LPQs. Excuse me, LPQs. It stands for Long Painful Questionnaire or Lateral Partner Questionnaire. That is the very detailed document that each firm has. Some firms use a universal lateral partner questionnaire that really tells the firm what the partner's Practice is like. But it's a specific process that we follow. But it all starts with what the partner's goals are, what he or she can or cannot accomplish in their current firm, and what their ideal situation looks like. Okay. What are some of the common mistakes that you see partners making during the lateral move process? You've mentioned some of them already. I think the biggest mistake I see is that they don't have realistic expectations on what's going to port over. I think they really need to think through that, because if they think some clients are going to port and they're not, that could be very. I would say it's even dangerous to move to a firm where you think a lot of your book is going to fall, and it just doesn't. I think that's the biggest mistake I've seen. They don't have a realistic estimation on what business is going to follow them. Just a quick aside. You know, you're a Navy guy and you talked about the process. Is that informed by your upbringing of having gone to the Naval Academy and having been involved in warfare? It is. But more accurately, it was my sea duty tour after I was on a ship. I was third in command of a US Navy ship during Operation Desert Storm and Desert Shield. After that, I was a leadership trainer at the world's largest naval base in Norfolk, Virginia. That was a time that the Navy had an initiative called Total Quality Leadership, derived from Total Quality Management based on the principles of W. Edwards Deming, who was one of the leaders in the quality movement. So at that time, I was able to train junior officers, senior enlisted and government employees on statistical process control, fancy charts and graphs. How do we measure things to improve our process? So it really came out of that experience, Steve. I was in the right place at the right time and got to learn and teach those concepts to people. See, I think having gone through the military would have been great experience in the way you describe it. But I was a nice Jewish boy from Long island, and my mother thought that that sort of activity was dangerous. But thank you for your service. You bet. Thank you. And I don't say that part jokingly. I really do mean that. Okay, what about from the firm's perspective? What are they really looking for? When they evaluate a lateral partner? The number one thing they want is action. They want partners to come in and build. They want partners to assess. And many times it's with the firm's help where those opportunities are. I think that's what every firm wants. They want people to come in and take Action to build, to integrate into the firm, to let go of the ego and to let other people work on their clients. I think that's what it really takes, someone to come into a firm and say, here's my clients. Let's see if we can help them, and see if I can help other client. Opportunities you have. But to be transparent, and it does take trust, because you've made a significant life change. You're going to a new firm, and on day one, they are your partners. But that's what every firm wants. They want partners to come in and take action. What is some of the due diligence that partners should be doing and how do you help them with that? I would say much of it is me showing them. Here are some things about the firm you may not know that just aren't publicly. Information's not publicly available about internal protocols, about how this firm can help you reach your potential. It's me giving them information on that. If I were a partner looking at a firm and if I knew people in that firm, I would definitely call them and I would ask them, what's it been like for you? Sometimes I'll have partners meet new laterals, people that joined a new firm less than two years ago to get that person's sense on how it was. What was the integration like? That's what I would do. If I were a new partner coming into a firm, I would want to talk to at least one person that's been there for less than two years just to get a real candid conversation off the record about what's it like. This is what they're telling me. What's it been like for you? That's what I would do. Can you give an example? Obviously, you gotta keep it confidential and maybe change some of the facts. But where things didn't go, you know, the partner made the move and things didn't really work out that well. Right. And I will keep that in confidence. But there was a partner that joined a firm and he didn't accurately understand the lack of abilities that their associates had. I didn't even think to ask that question also. And it just didn't work out for him because he couldn't get the quality associate support that he wanted. They didn't have a large recruiting team recruiting associates, so they didn't have the bandwidth to bring people in compared to other firms. And those are things that I look at now, not just tell me about the firm, but tell me about the firm's recruiting staff of associates. How do you recruit associates how do you integrate them? How do you support them? Tell me about the size of your recruiting team. If you just have one or two people handling national associate recruiting for an AMLA 100 firm, that's not enough. Those are the things I've learned. The other situation that didn't work out, and this is several years ago, I had a candidate whose largest client, which was a very large pharmaceutical company, couldn't come to that small firm because that small firm did not have a diversity initiative at that time. That was a criteria of that company. They're only going to work with law firms that have a diversity initiative. So his largest client, which was a multimillion dollar year client, just couldn't go with him. That was something I didn't even know to add. Wow. Just as an aside, in the climate that we're in, are firms still talking about diversity initiatives? I haven't heard it. I've heard it from other firms before, but new clients even, it's just not come up. I don't think it's given the priority status that it once was. Realistically, several years compared to several years ago. Right. All right, so you're talking about things that have gone wrong. What about what's a really well executed lateral move and what does that look like from your perspective? I think it starts with expectations and intention. This is what can be expected of me in terms of clients I'm bringing in. And we've articulated that and everybody's in agreement. I think it's the intention of coming in to build, to bring the clients over, to share those with other colleagues. Those are the two things that have to be there. And some firms have these amazing integration protocols and these, some of them aren't very large firms like Amlod. 200 firms that don't have the resources of all these larger global firms. In spite of that, they still have very good integration protocols because they know their firm so well and they know what type of clients do really well within their firm. And their firm is a welcome destination for those clients. That's when it goes really, really well. When two things I look for. Here's a partner, here's a firm. I look for connection points such as I need to have boots on the ground in London. Okay, That's a connection point they have. Then I also go a little bit deeper and I look for force multipliers. What are those opportunities that can really sink a partner quickly and deeply into that firm? One example of that is I have all the private credit work from this client and the firm the candidate, I've got all the private credit work from this client, and the firm has that same client, but they haven't been able to get that private credit work. The partner coming to that firm, bringing that business, even though it's a shared client, he has that relationship. It's going to follow on day one. So I look for connection points and also force multipliers. And when I look at a force multiplier, that's something where I look for that. And if I don't see it, I've made a lot of placements. In fact, there's one firm I placed six partners at in the last two years. None of them were looking at other opportunities. None of them had the dissatisfaction that was great enough to actively go out and look at making a move. But I tapped him on the shoulder, I said, why don't you consider this firm, just take a meeting and I'll tell partners, just invest 30 minutes and then stop and assess. Does it make sense to go to a second round, or do we just part as friends? Every single one of them had another round and another round, and they all moved. So they were not in a position of distress. Their discomfort was not great enough that they felt compelled to look at opportunities. So by me tapping them on the shoulder, earning trust and suggesting taking a look, it was enough for them to move. Okay, but I mean, realistically, you know, I talk to my clients about push factors and pull factors, and I was in the recruiting business for 25 years, and it seemed like the people that I had most success in recruiting were people that, you know, they were push factors. They weren't happy with what you're talking about, talking about the management, their support of their practice, whatnot, or for associates that they really didn't like the way they were being treated in general. But you're saying that you've had people that you've recruited that are fine. Thank you. But a good opportunity comes along. Yes, I have. Surprised me too. Not every firm has that ability, and so it's not as common. But if I can earn trust from someone and find out what their goals are and say, I think my client could help you reach those goals in a different way. Have a meeting, and if you don't want to go beyond that, that's totally fine. And so I never put pressure on people. Of course. It's basically I channel, I mean, my company mission statement, Steve, is literally I channel the self interest of a partner. So it intersects with law firm strategy. And I tell them, I say based on what you've told me, I think this is worth a meeting, and if you don't want to take it, that's fine. But you need to take a look, and they do, and the rest is history. But you're right. I think overall, for most people there is that push. What's going to push them out of their firm? The discomfort. The discomfort. And I've talked to other partners where the discomfort is here at a certain level. And as time goes by, it continues to increase. I'm more dissatisfied. I'm more dissatisfied. More dissatisfied. And then finally, it's significant enough where they have to move, where the discomfort of staying in the firm is much greater than the discomfort of moving. You know what's really striking to me, Scott, about talking to you and getting to know you is how authentic you are and how much you seem to really enjoy what you're doing. And I'm not saying there weren't moments that I enjoyed recruiting, but it really turned out to not be after 25 years, or maybe after three years or maybe after six months, not a great fit, just because there's so much rejection on the part of the recruiter. When you're going through it and you seem to really enjoy it, what is it that you enjoy about it? I think. Thank you, Steve. I appreciate that. And I totally understand what you meant. It's a grindy sort of business, but I think any business is going to be kind of grindy. The thing I. The thing I enjoy the most from it is earning the trust of someone that has a lot to lose if they make a mistake and knowing that they're trusting me enough. And I cherish that trust, and I'm never going to violate that trust. I think just knowing that I'm the midwife, I'm the surgeon, I'm someone that's doing significant work. It's simple in terms of what we do, but the complexity and the nuance is very deep, and I'm good at that. And I'd rather be painting. Honestly, I'd rather be painting oil landscapes and writing poetry all day, Steve, if I'm honest with you, and maybe someday I'll move a. Grow a goatee and move to Asheville, North Carolina, or Santa Fe and paint pretty pictures on a street. But. But until then, I'm doing deals. I'm doing deals between partners and law firms. Well, you are truly an enigma. From what I understand, you tend to lean conservative, but you have certain progressive values. You were a Navy guy, but you paint. You're thinking about Asheville, which I Don't know if it's been reconstructed, but I'd love to listen in on your conversations in coffee shops in Asheville because I'm sure I would get diverse viewpoints. So truly an enigma. Well, thank you, Steve. I used to live in Asheville for 10 years. Really? Yeah. It's the kind of place. No kidding. Yeah. Every. You know, I think that even though you're around people where the viewpoints might differ, you can still. And that's what it's all about is being friends with your neighbors, being friends with people where you have different opinions, which I think our country used to be that way. It used to. And maybe it will be one day again. Yeah, someday, you know, God willing. What about. If you're thinking about bringing along partners and associates, how do you. How does one approach that effectively? I think I would recommend checking out on the website partnersonthemove.com, go to the ethics page. I've got an interview with Hillary Gershwig, who's an ethics attorney, and she talks about the ethics issues. I can't give legal advice. I'm not an attorney. But from what she mentioned, you can talk to other partners, you can't talk to associates. But step one, I would definitely confirm that you're doing this ethically because you don't want to talk to associates and find out that's a breach of your fiduciary responsibility to your firm. That would be the first thing I would do. And then when you talk with your partners, make sure that everybody's in agreement. Look at. And so this. I'll just tell you what I've done. When I work with groups, I've done large groups. The largest group I did with 17 partners and an equal number of associates. 17 partners. I was talking with the leader of the group and they only looked at one firm. I presented about four or five options, and they love that firm. And there's different strategies. When you look at options, one strategy is I place people that look at seven options and I get in multiple offers. And then they start and they feel like they've had a good perspective and a good look at the market. I've had other people that fall in love on the first date and they stop looking. And there's nothing wrong with that strategy also. So I would say get real clear on what your goals are to moving. How can that improves your condition? And look at also, what are the risks associating with moving as well? Because there are risks and you don't want that to happen. My job is to mitigate that risk. And if you're working with a good recruiter, somebody that's a member of the nalsc, national association of Legal Search Consultants, I think that gives you an edge because you're working with someone that's most likely to be an ethical recruiter. So you definitely wouldn't want to risk it with people unless they've got a good story that they've helped other people just like you. That's what I'd recommend also, is just getting with your team, conferring with them, and then having an action plan. And then the other variable, and I'll stop right here, but because it's. It's a complex answer. The other one is in terms of timing. When can you move? If you move before a certain time, are you willing to give up whatever distribution you're hoping to get, or are there going to be issues related to you not getting your cap contribution back if you move during a certain time? Those are the issues where it gets pretty complex. It's more than I want to move in 90 days. You have to look at all that also. Okay. All right, so final question that kind of summarizes a lot of what you've been saying. What advice would you give to a partner who's on the fence right now about whether to stay or explore a move? I would tell them to understand the intention and know what the risks are between those two options. And in fact, I created a quiz. It's on the site I mentioned, partnersonthemove.com, it's totally free, confidential, you don't have to type in your email address. I set it up that way so people don't think it's like a lead funnel sort of thing. But I put a quiz on there that can help you to assess should you look at other options. There are some people that think they should move, but their best decision may be to stay. Maybe that is the best option for them not to move. And I think you need to think through that. And that's why I created that quiz, because it's stressful. I've talked to people where for three or four years, they want to move, but they're afraid to move. And, you know, and then they get to a point where moving actually isn't the best situation for them at that time. But I would. I would have that inner dialogue with yourself. I think this is an emotional journey for people, having a journal that you can write down what are the challenges that you're facing. And here's one exercise I'LL give your listeners. Steve, let's just say you have two options. Let's say you looked at one firm, you had a conversation with one firm and your current firm, and that could be an option. I would recommend writing down the pros and the cons of your current firm, and then also the pros and the cons of that other option. And next to each variable, rank it numerically on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 meaning how important that variable is, and then add up those columns. It'll give you four different columns, pros and cons for your current firm, pros and cons at the other firm. And you may not make the decision based on what is quantitatively showing you you should do, but at least it gives you some sort of quantifiable ways to make that decision. At the end of the day, it is an emotional decision, but you want to make a safe decision, too. I'll leave it with that, Steve. Okay, I'm endlessly curious person, so I've got to add one more thing which is, sure, I mean, I have an opinion about this, but let me see what your opinion is. So some of the people listening to this are associates and not partners. And I would give people different advice depending upon whether they were associates or partners, about talking to their firm, their existing firm, and just, you know, as opposed to a partner who has ownership interest. Do you think that's. That's a bit of a leading question. Do you agree with that or have different thoughts about it? My answer to that would be, you don't know what's going to happen with partners. And I don't do associate placements. I've done a few with colleagues that work for me. But with some firms, if they find out that you're thinking about moving, that you've had meetings with other firms, I've heard stories that they will fire a partner for that. So I would be very careful with it. Your mentor also has a fiduciary responsibility to the firm as well, so you want to be careful with that, too. All right, so final question I ask all my guests, what's one podcast, streaming television series or book that you'd recommend? And this is purely for enjoyment, I think. I like watching Tehran. It's on Apple tv. It's not just it's relevant right now, but it shows the dynamics between Israeli and Arab politics and the individuals in that. And it's just an interesting story. It's nice to take a break from your brain and watch interesting shows like that. Okay, Scott, this has been a great conversation. Thanks so much for joining us. I've really been enjoying getting to know you. I really love your style and I'm sure that your clients really enjoy working with you, especially when you tell them like, I think you should stay put. I think that shows high levels of integrity. If anyone in our audience has follow up questions, how can they reach you? They can email me Scott turneysearchgroup.com and you can also just google the Rainmaking podcast. You can find that anywhere and they can reach out to me through that as well. Great. And I really encourage everybody to do that. Scott's a very welcoming person. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please tell others and rate us on itunes or your favorite podcast app and share it with someone who you think might be interested. And if you're watching on YouTube, please hit the subscribe button. It will help others find us. If you'd like to continue the conversation, I welcome your inquiries and invite you to set up a time to speak with me about your own career or marketing concerns. I've been coaching lawyers for almost 30 years and I'm happy to do a free 30 minute consultation. You can sign up on my website@seclar.com that's s e C K L E R. On my website you could also find links to more episodes of Counsel to Counsel and get access to many free career, marketing and leadership resources. In the meantime, thanks for listening.