Stop Managing Hours. Start Managing Outcomes.

Speaker A: And also shifting the focus away from outcomes a little bit.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: So at the minute, I think a lot of people, a lot of managers I see are, uh, very focused on the time spent on something to deliver something. However, I strip that away and I use that with my team. And Grace, who works at Make Campfire, she's amazing. I always say to her, look, it's not necessarily how much time it's taking you. If something takes you an hour because you found a smarter way to do it, do it, you know, I don't then expect you to then, you know, continue the day, you know, till 6 o'. Clock. If I've asked you to do a particular task and you've done it, and we thought it was going to take you all the day, go do what you want, providing things are done, I'm more than happy for her. I would love her to be able to work from a different country or, you know, wherever she wants in the world, providing the work is done, the deliverables are done, the client deadlines are met, whatever it might be. I'm not that bothered about where people work, how many hours they've done in the day. Again, like we said off record earlier, it's all about working smarter, not harder.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the Plum Pod, where we talk about all things HR and mental health. I'm your host, Georgia, and founder of Access H. Hr. On today's episode, I'm joined by Alice Stone and we're exploring why human centric flexibility isn't just the right thing to do, it's the smart thing. As a people director, Alice goes beyond the buzzword as she uncovers the real strategies that are driving results. Alice, hi.

Speaker A: Hi.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode.

Speaker A: Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: M. No, of course. It's my, uh, pleasure. And I really want to strip it back. I want to know more about you and your background. And there's a question, question I like to ask every single guest. And the question is, was HR part of the plan or did this happen by chance?

Speaker A: HR was definitely not part of the plan. I think leaving school, like most people, I had absolutely no idea what HR was. M. Um, the only reason I fell into hr, let's say, was I left school, started doing my A levels and very quickly realized I was just not an academic person. Um, so walked into, um, the creator's advice office, so to speak. I was like, look, tomorrow morning, I'm not coming back. I'm done. They obviously tried everything they could to try and Persuade me. Um, I then got home and got a very stern talking to by my parents, as you can probably imagine. Um, but from that I actually fell into a HR apprentice, um, in a very large corporate company called Evo Group, who cannot thank enough for the opportunity. They didn't just support me entering into the workplace and the work environment, they also supported me becoming a mum for the first time at a very young age of 18. So, yeah, that's kind of where my career started. I always wanted to be a midwife, really. Midwife to HR is very different. But here we are.

Speaker B: It's interesting actually because when I was at school I wanted to be a nurse.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I then studied biology at A level, failed big time. Had to drop that as soon as I could get. Isn't it interesting that that nurturing side we then have taken with us to end up being HR professionals. I'm curious to know, so when you went and got career advice and you ended up in your first hr, ah, position, what drew you to that?

Speaker A: Um, I think I always knew that I'm just naturally not an academic person. I hold my hands up to that all the time. I'm not the sort of person who can sit in a classroom full time and have the attention span to learn 24 7. That's just not me. Um, I think growing up you naturally always push towards that. And I think actually as, as career advisors, this should be offering alternatives which are, you know, your apprenticeships, you know, there's various different things that you can be doing now. Um, and you know, there's different level of apprenticeships as well, which is incredible. Um, I think the only reason that drew me to the actual apprenticeship that I was doing was it was business administration and I knew I could get involved with loads of different things and I knew my attention span would always be switched on outputs and something I was going to get bored in. And it just so, uh, happened that the business administration apprenticeship was in a HR and payroll team.

Speaker B: Oh, perfect.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That's also the side of HR that I do really love. Like no two days are the same. People are complex for good reasons and bad. But it also brings so much energy and excitement to our profession. And what I really want to talk about today is something that you and I have spoken off camera and we're going to talk about it more today around a real human centered approach that you have to your professional career. Have you always taken a human centered approach?

Speaker A: I think to be very transparent, early days, probably not, no. I think because I started off in a Corporate environment, it was very much policy. Procedures was always drilled into me. I think the thing and the kind of switch that changed me, I think, was becoming a mum and, and seeing it from the, the other lens, I guess that yes, of course, you've got your policies, procedures, you've got your legislation that you have to follow, but you don't always have to have those probably harder conversations sometimes, and it'd be a horrid conversation. You can do it with a human approach. And I think as I've got older, as I've started to mature, um, I think I've started putting myself in other people's shoes a little bit and really understanding if that message was being delivered to me or anything that was coming my way, how would I want that to be handled? Um, and to be honest, I like honesty. I like transparency. I want it direct, but I also want someone to be kind about it. And I just think, you know, there's a lot of things in life that cost us a fortune. Being kind isn't one of them. You know, it's free of charge. I install it into my children every single day, that it doesn't matter if someone else has been mean to you. You kill them with kindness.

Speaker B: Oh, I love that. And I think in the workplace as well, a lot of people are confused being kind with being nice. Yeah, we actually need to stop being nice and we need to start and 100% be more kind. And that also allows us to take more of that human centered approach to being a really great professional. Like we are building really great experiences for our people and for the businesses. That's why we're hired and why we're in those positions. Yeah, I really want to dig into flexibility with having a human centered approach. Can you really break down for me the difference between being flexible compared with the legal definition of flexible working?

Speaker A: Yes. I think for me, we'll start with the legal approach first, because I think that's probably a short, short answer, shorter answer. Uh, I think with the formal legislation, every employer has to follow it. It's the law in the uk. However, the difference between your legal, uh, requirements versus what I would call your nice incentives that an employer chooses to do. They're the two words that you have to do it and there's a choice, um, is, you know, such as with the formal process, you've got your legal legislation where if somebody comes to you, uh, they want to reduce their hours, it's on a permanent basis. You've got to try and, um, you know, be adjustable and implement that in if possible. However, there's the incentive side of it, which is such a broad width that it can be, you know, your flexible working hybrid options, you know, even things down to having wellness days in your organization where you, you have the choice as an employer to give those to your team to be like, do you know what? We know work isn't the easiest things. You know, days, some days are really hard, some days are, you know, you could probably just get by or you have really, really positive days. But that journey and that fluctuation of that will never change. That's just part of the working world. Um, and having those sort of, you know, nice incentives in there just really help your team. You know, it's that investment into your team that you want to support them. Even things through to job sharing, you know, at the minute we see from a recruitment point of view it's always full time positions. There are so few and far between part time or job sharing opportunities out there. Which, you know, with Campfire ourselves, yes, we put most of our roles are full time positions. However, we do also add to our job descriptions that, you know, we're open to this sort of thing, you know, come and talk to us. We had an incredible, um, candidate who came to us not so long ago, incredible experience. She's a mom, she's, you know, really, really good at what she does and she just wants flexible working. Now at Campfire we offer that it's just part and parcel of our day to day working routine. Um, which then for her means she's actually could potentially actually find a new employer who has everything she needs to be able to one, continue in a career and two, continue to be a mum. Um, and that comes from different avenues. You know, it could be a dad, it could be grandparent who still has caring opportunities for their grandchildren. It could be, it could be a

Speaker B: ride that's also everything to somebody, 100%. A lot of us want to find a balance between our personal and our professional lives and that looks very different on each of us of how that shows up. As a people director, what, uh, impact have you seen at Campfire by having more of a flexible, human centric approach?

Speaker A: Uh, definitely a better work life balance. Um, even for me personally, not just as a people director, but as an employee, you, you know, it means that I can still be a mom, I can still go to the gym. Granted that's very rarely nowadays, but you know, if we're doing things outside of working hours, I can finish at 4 o', clock, I can make sure I'm home to be able to go out and do things with the kids or even like little things like, you know, sebakis. We're ending up to the summer holidays now. It's the end of term, you know, we've got final end of year performances, we've got sports days, we've got all that sort of stuff. And having that flexibility to be present and go, still do those things is incredible. Um, I think as well, for a lot of people it's a mindset shift that they know if they wake up at 7 o' clock in the morning thinking I'm gonna start work at 8 o'. Clock. And um, they wake up and think, do you know what? Not today. Because we're all human, we all do. They've got that flexibility to have a little bit more time just to gather your thoughts in the morning, come round a little bit. You know, I know not all of us are morning, uh, people. I'm certainly not a morning person, but they've got the opportunity then to build a few more hours before they actually have to start and getting involved in the day to day work stuff.

Speaker B: I guess it also comes, I guess with what you're saying around like the freedom of flexibility and knowing that that option is there, which I know so many of our listeners will be listening to what you're saying, going, I wish I had a workplace like that. It's very unfortunately rare. I'm seeing more and more of it, especially buoyant businesses who are prioritizing their people, who are taking more of a flexible approach. But if we think of those corporate companies, they are still being quite a stickler for the flexible arrangement that they have internally. I would love to know from your perspective, if we put on our uh, commercial and business hat, what are the benefits of having more of a flexible approach to a modern work?

Speaker A: Number one, productivity. I cannot extra express enough how much positive impact, you know, having just the mindset of having that choice as an employee, they are naturally more engaged, they want to be here, they want to be part of the journey with the team. So on those days where it is a little bit more, you know, difficult, challenging the right behind us, you know, they're on that journey with us. Um, and I think for me, seeing that productivity improve then also improves morale, it improves your culture. It has such a circle of events that it's just a massive positivity granted from a commercial and a business point of view. A lot of corporate businesses are thinking, one, how can I trust my team? You know, are they Actually logging on. When they're saying they're logging on, are

Speaker B: they doing their washing?

Speaker A: 100 and hey, we all hold our hands up then. I work from home sometimes. I sometimes stick the washing in the washing machine. That actually makes you more productive. 100 because I'm not thinking of all the long lists I've got to do when I finish work. And you know, there'll be some days where I log on at 8 and then I finish at 6, which, you know, somebody might think, oh well, that's quite a lot. Bit of a long work day. However, during that time, you know, I popped and picked the kids up from school. Yes, I put a load of washing in and then I put it out in the sunshine to get it done. But that in my mind is reducing the amount of mental almost work I've got going off in my mind that actually makes me be better at what I'm doing. And even on the days when I'm having, you know, maybe some harder conversations with employees, having just that moment to be able to go and have that moment to myself is so important.

Speaker B: I really connect with that and relate to it. I actually, and I'm thinking of this week I put on a washload. But I used the time for that wash load as like my block of where I really need to hyper focus on a certain piece of work because that's the time that I'd allocated before I then needed to go outside and put my washing out to dry.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That enabled me to actually be more productive. Like I said. So hyper focused. That's my working style. I do work in blocks. And the statistics around productivity are huge. We do see a 13 to 22% increase in productivity when we have more flexible arrangements. And there's statistics like those where it makes me think, why are we not capitalizing on this a lot more. But it goes back to the question that you just said, are my team working?

Speaker A: Yeah. The trust element.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And I think a lot of employers need to have a bit of a mindset shift that it's not children. You know, with children you've got to give them maybe a little bit more structure and routine. Um, because their mindset isn't quite there yet. You know, their, their brain ultimately still growing. However, you're dealing with full grown adults and if you cannot trust somebody, there's kind of no point having them on your team. Whereas if, if you give everybody your entire trust and they choose to go against that and you can clearly see the people who do, you know, you'll know that they're not online just through the fact that they're not delivering, they're not meeting deadlines, they're not meeting targets. They're getting negative feedback from your wider team that is so clear very early on. Um, and I think if you nip that in the bud with that person and you know, keep that cycle going, then your whole business will become, it will just run itself. Your team will run your business for

Speaker B: you and challenge that individual person. Don't then make a wider team feel the impact of one individual's behaviors that don't align with your values. I've seen it one too many times where one person has done something, then a company wide email goes out that we're stripping back this perk. And it's such a shame and so damaging because it's actually really positive to a business.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: To have more of a human centric, flexible approach to their working styles. We've gone through a few statistics already and if anyone is listening and they're thinking, okay, how can I actually get my senior stakeholders on board with more of a flexible approach? Do you have any tips for them?

Speaker A: I think that's quite, quite a good one actually. I think demonstrating to your head of, head of department directors, owners of the business, whoever it might be, who's in charge of those decision makings, showing them how your competitors are doing it. Um, you know, we work in the creative industry, that sort of flexibility hybrid just, it's just there, it's just the norm. Whereas in corporate environments I think there is this natural, as we said before, there's this lack of trust. But ultimately if they don't keep up with the ways of working when they go to recruit or retain talent, they're going to drive people away. People are not going to be engaged in that employer anymore, which then they're going to see massively. So I think it's factoring in, I personally factor in every different element that you can come with them with the statistics. If that's the sort of person that they, they want that statistics. You know we mentioned earlier off um, off the record about the color wheel mapping and understanding the people that you're talking to. So you know, I used to work with a cfo, amazing cfo, uh, you know, owe him the world for, for a lot of opportunities he's given me. But he was very red. He wanted very like facts, figures. He didn't want the fluff as I called it. So I went in there with the statistics with the direct messaging and the implications of if you don't do this, this is what's going to happen. And here's what could happen from a positive point of view if we do implement it. And it's understanding your people I think as well. Uh, which I think why that, that color mapping and understanding personality so important.

Speaker B: Speaking their language as well, depending on who you're delivering that information to. I think a lot of us have been guilty in the past of creating a really lovely slide deck of all these wonderful things.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But if we're not creating that and building it with our target audience in mind and speaking their language and knowing which color they are, I think that's so important in business. We should know that for ourselves as professionals, but also for our wider team and how we're communicating that way, then we can start to get these really positive strategies over the line, but also to where the business is bought in from the offset. A uh, challenge that I see in particular with flexible working at the moment and more flexible arrangement is around presenteeism. And I'd really love to know your perspective on this because what I'm fearful of is because we've adjusted our working pattern. We've now got office and then we've got hybrid and then we've got remote. When people aren't feeling in their fits and state, they're potentially poorly and potentially also in a state of ill mental health. People are working from home. But we're seeing presenteeism. How can we start to overcome that and shift the mindset on presenteeism and the world of work we've got today?

Speaker A: Yeah. I think you touched upon a really valid point there about people working from home when they're not well.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: I think that's a separate conversation. However, I would just say that for me an employer needs to make sure that as a duty of care that that employee is fit enough to work. We've all been guilty of doing that. I've done it so many times where I've really felt really poorly about being like, oh, I'll just work from my laptop in bed. Which has actually then delayed my recovery to actually feel better. Um, and I think employers need to make sure they've got a very robust sickness policy in place and they are managing that naturally, of course to make sure you have got people still engaged, still motivated, but they've got that duty of care in there and, and a wellbeing point of view as well I think is, um, is necessary. Um, and also shifting the focus away from outcomes a little bit.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: So at the minute I think A lot of people, a lot of managers I see are very focused on the time spent on something, to deliver something. However, I strip that away and I use that with my team. And Grace, who works at Make Campfire, she's amazing. I always say to her, look, it's not necessarily how much time it's taking you. If something takes you an hour because you found a smarter way to do it, do it. You know, I don't then expect you to then, you know, continue the day, you know, until 6 o'. Clock. If I've asked you to do a particular task and you've done it, and we thought it was going to take you all the day, go do what you want, providing things are done. I'm more than happy for her. I would love her to be able to work from a different country or, you know, wherever she wants in the world, providing the work is done, the deliverables are done, the client deadlines are met, whatever it might be. I'm not that bothered about where people work, how many hours they've done in the day. Again, like we said off record earlier, it's all about working smarter, not harder.

Speaker B: It is. And it goes back to your point that you were saying around not treating people like children. If you treat them like children, you're going to get childish. Childish behavior. Yeah, but we need to shift our mindset into treating each other like adults with our policies, having them like adults, our processes, having like adults, but also being human. There's so many of us that are missing that. And yes, we can work a lot smarter with AI and all of the support that way. I do think that makes us better humans personally, and we can strip it back and go back to basics with that. But if we're not taking the stance on presenteeism and identifying and recognizing that this is actually happening in our team, I think we're really missing out. There's so much that we can do as businesses to really support our team and create that psychological safety where if somebody is poorly, they're poorly.

Speaker A: Yeah. And they feel comfortable taking the day off sick, going, getting in bed, watching Netflix, whatever it might be. And I think there's also, you know, when we refer to sick leave, everyone thinks there's a physical, medical condition and sometimes we need to identify and, you know, have more conversations around that. Sometimes when you feel sick, it's because you mentally burn out and that's absolutely fine. I'd love people not to get to that point. But I think we have to be realistic that that does happen. And you Know, that can be an accumulation of very different things. It can be work, it could be personal life all in one. It can be so many different things. But again, having that safe space to open up those conversations, to be like, you know what? My, uh, mind's just not there today. I'm really struggling. I just need a day in a dark room, and that's absolutely fine. And like you say, creating that safe space for people to feel comfortable to go and have those conversations. And I think, again, it's going back to the trust element, that we need to model trust in leadership more. You know, give people the autonomy and not be micromanaging, you know, going back to the human element. Let adults manage their own life. You know, if they feel they're not well enough to work, allow, like, they need to. They need to be the ones to make that decision that they're not well enough to work. Um, and that's okay.

Speaker B: It also helps with their recovery as well. The longer that we stretch this out where, uh, they're genuinely not fit and they shouldn't be online, the more damage we're going to cause. I'd love to know your perspective, and I'm coming from this. From an HR professional's lens, how can we start to track the impact that we're having with flexible arrangements to see if they're actually working or if we're seeing things like presenteeism, um, and avoidance. What can we actually do?

Speaker A: Yeah, so one of the things we do is an employee pulse check. Ah. Which is part of an employee engagement survey. I guess. Um, I know a lot of people aren't fond of employee engagement surveys, but it's really good for us to be able just to get a bit of a. Just a pulse feeling in terms of where our employees are at. For, um, me personally, because I work so closely with our entire team, which I'm really fortunate to be able to do because we're just such a small team. I can see physically when people are burnt out and I naturally go over and be like, come on, like, what you doing here? Please go home. Take the time you need. And as part of our L and D strategy, moving forward at campfire, that's the sort of thing that we're going to be implementing. We're going to make sure that our line managers, you know, future leaders of campfire, are really going to know how to identify, you know, different changes in people's behaviors, you know, what's normal for them, what's not. And that will ultimately come down to a training aspect as well for us because naturally, as we said earlier off record, a lot of people do just become natural people managers because it's that natural progression but they're not given that L and D support to be able to like this is actually how you manage a person day to day and this is the difference between managing and leading. And I do think to a degree you've got to go through that management piece before you could become then a leader. But ultimately as a business that's our responsibility to be able to provide them with those core skills to be able to do that.

Speaker B: It enables them to be better professionals. Many of us go into leadership, we uh, don't have the training. We learn a lot along the way and when it comes to flexibility, more often than not we go off our own learnt experience and role modelled behaviour that we've seen in the workplace of what's acceptable and what's not. When you were talking then around there needs to be a commercial piece first of how can we give people the resources for success. I also think there needs to be a conversation of what does flexibility look like here for us? What do we celebrate in, in those moments and how can we recognize those as a really good thing? Because they benefit then both the employee and the business, which is what we're all here for.

Speaker A: Definitely. It's the whole point of having a HR team. It is, we're there to enable and um, bring these initial initiatives to the table And I think, you know, I'm fortunate that working organizations that have allowed us to do that and we've naturally been able to progress what our benefits package looks like to our team and that's incredible. But like we touched upon earlier, there will be corporate environments that are still very much, you've got to be in the office nine till five, you've got to be in five days a week. And ultimately they will drive, as we said, they'll drive their team away eventually and they'll make it will make it even harder to attract that key talent that they need moving forward.

Speaker B: And um, employees and candidates are ahead of the curve. Like they're not dumb, they're looking out, they're seeing all the employers now we've got a pool of employers we're then openly selecting what sort of environment do we want to go into. And that's why for me as a people experience consultant, you've got to have a really solid experience for your people because if not they're going to go elsewhere. Agencies have got it so right. And tech, I love when you said look at your competitors because that knowledge is public. It's really shareable with what organizations are doing currently to create environments that actually better stimulate and attract talent. Like, if you're, if you're not putting this on your agenda, you really risk not being an employer of choice anymore.

Speaker A: M. I agree 100%. We constantly, you know, I'm a big advocate of LinkedIn and um, bit of a sucker for. It's been a minute, but every single day, you know, I follow a lot of our competitors. I can see the shifts, the trends of what they're doing and not necessarily that we're going to go and repeat what they're doing, but as a inspiration though, as a hundred percent, as a creative agency, we're going to think outside the box and be like, right, how can we do something better to be able to make us that number one creative agency that people want to come and work for. And you know, that's not to minimize anything that our competitors are doing. We've got some amazing people who, you know, definitely keep us on their toes, which is incredible. But it does also put us on the spotlight and the pedestal to be like, right, okay, how can we make sure that, that what we're offering is the best in the industry to attract that incredible talent in.

Speaker B: I can also imagine as well that that really helps with your retention. Have you seen any impact as a people director, uh, on the retention because of the strategies that you've brought in?

Speaker A: 100%. Um, I think it's probably harder in my most recent role of honor being there, what, coming up to three months now. Ah, but in previous roles, absolutely, 100% because it enables our team again, that flexibility to have everything. I use a really good example that when I first had my, my first little one, I was told by a HR team member who was also my manager at the time that you can't have a career and be a mum. Now me being really stubborn was like, watch this space. I'll make that happen. And here I am. And um, I'm very key to make sure that any organization that I work in, I never want anybody to question their choices in life and be like, well, I can't have a career and that if I have a career that I can't do X, Y and Z. Mhm. Absolutely not. If you want a career, 100%, go get it and we will support you as an employer. But on the flip side, I will be that one. Quite annoyingly, sometimes if I'm logged on a little bit later and I'm like, why on earth are you still logged on like, girl? And I think a lot of people are like, I can't believe that we've got someone in the business who is telling me to stop working. It feels a bit, a bit unknown, I guess. Um, but I am that person. I'll always be that person. And you know, our team are not just a team, they're not just a number. Like, we genuinely care about every single one of them. And in order for them to be happy and successful, they've got to have that flexibility in every aspect of their life.

Speaker B: It also sounds like you've got a really safe culture as well where you can challenge people in the way that really benefits them. Like them being online late at night, that's not productive, that's not healthy, that's not something that will give people their best and optimum levels of life. How have you found over the last three months in particular enabling safety within Campfire, that's really, given that long term success, what's really worked?

Speaker A: So I think definitely for us at Campfire, we have identified over the last couple of months that we've got some challenges with ways of working. We're quite transparent about that. We know we've got a lot of work to do. However, we're on the right path. And as part of doing that, we're not just coming in as an SLT and a leadership to be like, this is the new ways of working. This is what we're doing. We're opening that forum up to have workshops in the organization. Um, so we've got, in particular, we had a workshop a few weeks ago where it was like, how do we evolve our product? And we opened it up to the entire business. I was like, right, guys, what do you all think? Tell us, you know, what have you seen on LinkedIn? What have you seen on TikTok, the social media platforms? What's working and how can we integrate something new? On the flip side, even with like the people management tools at the minute, we've just recently introduced a new management structure. As part of that, every month, every week, sorry, we get together and do a level 10 meeting. Um, as part of that there's a very clear, um, issues map, let's say. And we don't just do it by department to be like, Alice, you know, this is an issue in the HR team. What are you going to do to fix it? It's a roundtable discussion to black. Right guys, this is the challenge we've got this week. How are we collectively going to do it? As an smt. And I think with time, obviously this is quite a relatively new process that we've introduced. But I think naturally over time, employees will see that, they'll see that, that psychological safety to be like, you know what, actually I've got a voice here.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: And I actually posted something this morning about employee voice and how important that is, that it goes back down to that psychological safety for somebody in the team, um, to really feel like they're being heard, they're being listened to. And of course there's going to be some things that are brought to the table. And as business, you can't do that, but it's how you communicate that back to your team member to be like, look, brilliant suggestion. We're just not quite there yet because of X, Y and Z reasons. However, when we hit this KPI or, you know, these skill matrix measured, whatever it might be, then we can review that again. So it's making them feel heard, um, and empowering them is one of our core values this year.

Speaker B: You mentioned that the meeting is called level 10.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What, what does that mean? Level 10?

Speaker A: So it's all about, it's about the score matrix, basically. So with a Level 10 meeting, at the end of it, we all score it, basically. Now, we only did our first one this week, um, as campfire. Um, it was an incredible session. It was really engaging. Everyone was involved, everyone had something to say, which was amazing. Um, so ultimately, at the end of that meeting, our cfo, who chairs that meeting, goes around, says, right, Alice, tell me how of 10 rate the meeting. And I think, to be very transparent, mine was seven this week. Because it's a brand new process. We're all still finding us feet. However, for a first meeting, it was incredibly productive. Like, we had a lot of outcomes. Don't get me wrong, the to do list extended. Um, but, you know, we're already on that and, um, we're identifying the key challenges we've got as a business and just driving that forward.

Speaker B: Now, the reason that I asked that is a lot of what you were saying started with, and I wrote this down, how do we. And I love that because you're also opening the floor to the entire team to get feedback from then rather than here's how we're going to.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I think that the ultimate, uh, word there is we. It's not I, you know, we're a team. You know, we get on, we do things together. And even through the highs and the lows, we're there as a team together doing It I think Campfire are definitely one of the most supporting organisations I've worked for. Don't get me wrong. As I said, we've got work, you know, ways of working, challenges to me they're not a huge problem. You know, actually behind that we've got a really good set of people who have got, you know, they're very aligned with our core values as a business. They live and breathe them every single day. And I think we've got that in place. The ways of working now we're workshopping them. Once we've got those nailed, we will be absolutely flying.

Speaker B: I love that. That's also really inspiring because quite clearly the approach that you've taken with the human centric position has really helped to. Because you've got a great team, you've got great strategies that are already in place. Naturally as a business evolves, we review those, we adjust those. It makes sense. They've got to work for our people otherwise whatever they there for 100% and

Speaker A: over time, you know, uh, the world evolves so quickly, tech evolves so quickly. You know, AI is going to take over the world one day, I swear by it. And we've got to adjust our processes by so many different key components all the time. But every time we do that our team will be part of that. You know, we're not just driving it forward as an slt, you know, from the bottom of the hierarchy right to the top. We want everybody involved with that and we're doing it. And I think a really cool thread

Speaker B: of what you're saying around flexibility and connection and engagement. You've got the buy in from your people because you're seeing them as humans and as adults. By allowing that flexible perspective and approach, then naturally when you're asking people for their contribution, you're giving them a voice. They've got that space and they feel really good. And that is also a way that each of us can take inspiration from that. Uh, having those practices done first then enables us to grow for the future. Alice, I only have one last question for you.

Speaker A: Go for it.

Speaker B: And looking back, so thinking around the HR apprenticeship road that you went down to at the start of your career in that moment, what is one piece of advice you would give your younger self?

Speaker A: Oh, never doubt yourself.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: I think naturally we live in a very social focused world, which ironically I work for a social first agency, so that was quite aligned. Um, but I think there's so much on there online at the moment that does make you doubt yourself and it doesn't matter how old you are. Um, you know, we all see things and we think, oh, maybe I should be doing that, maybe I should be doing that way. However, one thing I've always been is unapologetically me. And, you know, I, you know, laughing joker say all the Barnes are girls here, but I am, you know, I'm very northern. Um, I'm very much, you know, very family orientated, but I'm also very career driven and I want to do that. Granted, a lot of that was installed by my parents growing up in terms of, like, our values as a family and what they believed in and that passed through to us. But, yeah, my advice is just be unapologetically you and you'll go far, you'll succeed, you'll have an amazing life.

Speaker B: Honestly, thank you so much for saying that as a fellow northern girlie. Hearing that, it just like, it makes my heart feel so full. Definitely agree. I think more of us need to do that in our career and hopefully we can learn that a lot sooner than on reflection. But honestly, Alice, thank you so much for sharing everything that you're doing. There's such inspiration and I love the human centric approach that you're taking. Really credible. Thank you so much.

Speaker A: Thank you. It's been lovely.