Why Every Leader Must Understand Menopause at Work

Georgia: I also heard that you have a really lovely analogy about menopause, and I'm really intrigued to hear it. Could you tell me more?

Margaret Wood: Yes. Well, I've recently read quite a lot, uh, a couple of books by two neuroscientists. One, uh, Dr. Luanne Briesendeen, who talks about the menopause as being the upgrade m, which I think is a fantastic way to describe it. And the other one is Dr. Lisa Moscone, and she talks about menopause as being a renovation project on the brain.

Georgia: Hello and welcome to the Plum Pod, where we talk about all things HR and mental health. I'm your host, Georgia, and founder of Access hr. On today's episode, I'm joined by Margaret Wood, an advocate for menopausal transitional learning. And, um, whether you have experienced menopause firsthand or you're supporting someone who is, this episode is for everyone. And it's a conversation that we all need to hear from, regardless of gender. Margaret. Hi.

Margaret Wood: Hello.

Georgia: Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode.

Margaret Wood: It's great to be here.

Georgia: Yes, it's great you've joined me on such a wonderful day here. And we're also going to have an incredible conversation. And importantly, we're going to do some myth busting, which I am really excited for. But firstly, I want to take it back a little bit. I want to talk about you, your background, and make sure our listeners try truly know who you are. And to do that, I've got one question. There's a question that I like to ask every single guest. And the question is, was HR part of the plan or did this happen by chance?

Margaret Wood: It definitely happened by chance.

Georgia: Tell me more.

Margaret Wood: I, uh, was, uh, working as an inspector of taxes in a local tax office. And I was invited to join the regional HR team, which I did and found myself working in, um, equality and diversity issues, specifically, um, with women. Um, and I was asked to gather together a group of women to attend a women's development program. And it was great. You don't very often have chance to select the people that you be with on a course. And we had a great time and we kept in touch for a while afterwards. Um, I found the course very interesting and useful. Um, but I didn't think that much more about it until, uh, the person who was the program director decided that she didn't want to continue. And it was suggested to me that I applied, but it was a UK wide role. Um, um, and, uh, I thought it over and one of the things that struck me Was that having been on the course, I didn't feel it would be complete unless we encourage men to join in the conversation. So I spent quite a lot of time banging on doors and annoying people by saying, can I have some funding to do this Men and Women Working Together program? Um, and I did eventually and ran a couple of courses, um, which were very successful. Unfortunately, um, it didn't go any further. So I've really, um, been wanting to include men in the conversation, um, right from first, beginning with this.

Georgia: I love that. I also think that's really important. And if I reflect on my experience, including men, having that conversation has really made me step back and think, well, why are we not doing this? Like, why are we also not being more inclusive in our conversations? And we're definitely going to get into that a lot more today. So I want to focus on you and being a menopausal transition facilitator with the style of work that you're doing at the moment. Let's break it down at the start. So if somebody has heard of the word menopause, but they don't really know what it means in a real simple term, can you just break it down for me?

Margaret Wood: Well, I think the thing that concerns me is it's still seen as a woman's issue, um, but it starts from, um, Maybe the late 30s and early 40s, when perhaps women aren't aware of the changes that are taking place because they're so subtle. Um, for some women it takes on, um, a life of its own pretty early. But for most, it's very gradual. Um, and then it gradually builds up with different symptoms. But the thing that I like to get across is that no two women will have the same menopause experience. 75% of women will have, um, a moderate to difficult time. A third of those will really have serious issues, and yet another 25% won't experience anything at all. And so it's really a question of not judging someone you've known who's had, um, a barely knowledgeable experience of it with someone who's really had a difficult time or vice versa. So it's accepting that it's no one size fits all. Every woman has different symptoms. It affects them in different ways.

Georgia: And what do you think is often the biggest misunderstanding with menopause? And where do organizations get it so wrong?

Margaret Wood: I think precisely what I've said. I mean, one of the biggest issues, or, ah, um, symptoms that you hear about are hot flushes. And I've seen a lot of menopause Policies which I think are great. Uh, and it's always saying, oh, well, you must have, uh, provide death fans and access to ventilation, perhaps open windows and things like that. But there are some women who suffer from extreme cold and even on a day like today. Mhm. They would want to be wearing cardigans. They wouldn't Montess fan. They would want the window closed.

Georgia: That's something new for me. Like, I honestly didn't, I didn't know. It can also be from a cold perspective.

Margaret Wood: Yeah, I mean I've learned this speaking to other women. It's all to do with the part of your brain that controls core body temperature. Mhm. And for some women it can go the complete opposite. So someone who is saying that they're going through a menopause transition, but they don't want the windows open and they feel cold, well, aren't uh, you supposed to be feeling hot and shouldn't you need a fan? So I think that's the thing. It's not making out that every woman will have exactly the same symptoms.

Georgia: Which comes back to the education, I think for a lot of organizations actually understanding what are those symptoms and how can they show up on people differently? Not by textbook, because I've just learned something new. Because I also was under the impression of hot flushes, feeling hot in the body. And I can only relate to a personal example when I was in, um, an office with a lady who now on reflection, she was quite clearly premenopausal, but it was the joke of, oh, she's always hot. Like we need to open the window. But actually that was wrong. Like there was a lack of education within that organization for how do we actually support women, but also as allies, what else we can do? Because there's an education that goes both ways.

Margaret Wood: Exactly. The woman herself has to feel comfortable to be able to share that. I don't believe that anyone, um, should have to share intimate details. Not at all. But I think there should be sufficient knowledge and understanding in an organization that if a woman says she's going through a menopause transition, then it's accepted that she will experience a range of symptoms, some of which could be being hot, which is most usual, but also they could be being cold. And I think it just reminded me one of the other things that I feel very strongly about. Um, the first question, part of the question that you asked is that women can end up being identified with the experience that having during menopause transition, they can then take on that as part of their new personality and other People view them in that way, whereas when they've gone through menopause transition and all the hormonal changes have gone is fantastic. And um, uh, there's an American anthropologist called Margaret Mead who says there is no greater power on earth than the zest of a postmenopausal woman. But that message doesn't come across either. And that's what I want to convey, that it's what happens to a woman over a certain period of time in her life, which is hard to define, but she comes out of it the other side and has got so much

Georgia: to offer, which is then such a shame that organisations during that period aren't supporting their people effectively. Because like you said afterwards, the transformation during all of those stages feels light. And what I'm seeing as well, and why I was so intrigued for having this conversation, is 1 in 10 women had surveyed and said that whilst they have been employed, they have actually left their organization due to their menopausal symptoms. Which just goes to show it's not just a personal issue, it's also a business issue that's happening here. We've got an impact on retention, an impact on loss of productivity and this is an area that needs to be prioritised.

Margaret Wood: Exactly. I just don't understand why organizations don't get it. Because it's the productivity, profitability, reputation of the organization. And yet the Fawcett report in 2022, uh, found that around 80% of women feel unsupported at work. And I think this is where your 1 in 10 leave. 25% of women think about it, but 1 in 10 actually do it. And the organization not only loses, um, the person they've got to recruit, there's a cost of recruiting. And if you recruit someone, yes, they might have the same or better qualifications, but they haven't got that knowledge of the organization and how it works. And that's the biggest loss to an organisation completely.

Georgia: And supporting that one employee will also save them in the cost to then rehire. Exactly. To your point, they lose not just the physical skills and the technical skills, but the knowledge of the organization, the customer awareness, but also the energy and excitement of somebody who wants to be part of your organization. But they're not feeling that connection and engagement from them because work is a two way relationship. And I think that's also the missing piece that during menopausal transition organizations need to be really proactive with their strategy rather than just bringing in a one size fits all policy. Once they hear rumors and whispers in the office around menopause and experience of it. I'd be intrigued to know actually from your perspective, what are more proactive strategies that you like to see within organizations?

Margaret Wood: I would like to see more organizations, including everyone in the conversation. I think that's a big thing. Um, that there's no, there shouldn't be any mystique about. Happens to women naturally. We don't think about this in terms of puberty. Mhm. We see that as being natural. And um, when it comes to menopause, which again is closing a chapter, uh, in a woman's part of a woman's life where she's no longer going to be reproductive. Uh, and there's a phrase actually which I think is really good, that although a woman is no longer reproductive, it doesn't mean to say she isn't productive.

Georgia: Ooh, I've not heard that before.

Margaret Wood: Yeah, it's good, isn't it?

Georgia: That's really good. I'm gonna write that down. That's also really powerful. And I also think for women to hear that it shows that there is light as well for them.

Margaret Wood: I think that uh, that is one of the big things that I want to give women. Yes, you might be having a difficult time. And the unfortunate thing is that at the time that menopause hits, other things are happening as well. Um, children, uh, doing GCSEs, A levels, going to university, maybe having to look after aging or sick relatives. And then with all the um, issues, mental health issues that come, really they're the most profound aspect of menopause. Not the hot flushes which can be very debilitating. But the biggest thing that women find is their experience of depression, anxiety. And so often they find themselves on antidepressants, uh, sleeping tablets and tranquilizers which really only exacerbate or just put a lid on for a time. Um, I was reading something the other day where um, it's not necessarily when someone goes to the. A woman goes to the doctors in the early stages in perimenopause with anxiety and depression. Hormonal, um, issues don't come to the fore when the doctor's prescribing something, which you would think, and you just hope that more and more there's an understanding that this happens gradually and much um, sooner than I think people have really considered in the past, which I also

Georgia: think then goes to one of your core points around this, around educating outside of just women and taking it further beyond that. Because also I think we can start to identify changes as well, but also support so If I think for like my personal perspective, I have siblings, I also have a mum. So it's. How could I also really start to recognize and support her during that process? So how, how are you finding a really nice way to get individuals more on um, board with this conversation compared with just having women? Are there any particular strategies or anything that you found really helpful?

Margaret Wood: I think explaining more about how the, it's the brain that's mostly affected the changes in different parts of the brain, um, that kind of really change a woman's personality. And I found that speaking to mixed groups, um, and explaining this, you can almost see this epiphany moment, the light bulb goes on and the. Oh yes, that explains the changes in behavior better. Mhm. Um, and so I feel that that's why I want to get the message across so that everybody understands. I mean, I was speaking to a young man, he's about 25 now and he said that he is the only child of a single parent mum and they'd always shared everything, uh, and really had a happy life. And when he was about 10, his mother, who was only 32, went into early menopause and he found her crying and he didn't know what was the matter. He'd never known her be unhappy like that before. And he said if he'd have known what I'm trying to get the message across to everyone, it would have helped an awful lot. So he said to me, keep on doing what you're doing, keep on um, you know, sort of telling people this.

Georgia: I also think that's a really big misconception around menopause, that it happens around late 40s, 50s. I only learned this quite recently, I'll be completely honest around this. And the reason I learned that is I was in a working environment where somebody was new onto the team and they very kindly shared that they actually started menopause due to endometriosis very early at the age of 18, which I did not know that was a thing. But equally to the example that you just gave there, Starting menopause at 32 and early menopause, we need to be having these conversations sooner.

Margaret Wood: M. Yes, one in a hundred women experience early menopause. Some of it can. When I say naturally, it's obviously not natural that it happens earlier, uh, but it's their own body changes that do it. But the others are uh, either medically induced or chemically induced. And like you, I'm learning all the time. And I was speaking to someone only two or three weeks ago and she was Saying that when she had IVF treatment, she was put into a medically induced menopause.

Georgia: Really?

Margaret Wood: Yeah. I'd never heard of that before. So when she actually started in perimenopause, she recognized the symptoms straight away,

Georgia: which goes back to the education as well. And also if we can, as women, if we can understand symptoms and potentially how they may show up, but also start to recognize our own behaviors that are outside of the norm that are happening, we can support ourselves first and foremost, but then also communicate that, uh, with those around us, including personal lives, but also professional, if we feel comfortable for that. I think there's also a big piece around culture and is there that psychological safety internally to where we can have an open conversation around menopausal transition pre and post? What does that look like? And then an education for managers for how to actually support rather than avoiding the conversation because they don't know how to have it.

Margaret Wood: When you were speaking there, it reminded me of something, um, called menopause concealment. And um, I think, you know, certainly someone 18 wouldn't. It's very courageous actually to feel, and I think it's a testament to the people that she was sharing it with that she felt comfortable doing that. But it's just got these aging connotations and women, um, don't want to admit to it because of the view that other people will have of them that they should be put out to posture, that they're not going to be any good at anything anymore. Um, and I think that's sort of reinforced by the, uh, brain fog, which is one of the hardest things women speak to me about. And I know it's horrible. You're standing up in front of a group of people and suddenly you're. You forget what you were going to say and you just wish the ground would swallow you up. And then your confidence goes m. Because you think if that happens again, and I know it can happen again, I'm not going to put myself into that kind of situation where I'm likely to forget something really relevant. And so they withdraw as almost a safety mechanism. But then they're viewed as losing interest.

Georgia: Mhm.

Margaret Wood: So unless they feel able to speak about it, they're going to be viewed, uh, as well, she's not interested in this, that or the other anymore, which

Georgia: is also really hard for women. M. Especially just. I can't imagine how that feels. And also we need to do better as a society, I think, to understand and have that education. But also during those moments, that's when women need us the most, especially with confidence, as you. As you just said. Because Also, we spend 90,000 hours at work. We've intentionally built our careers on areas that we loved so much. Yet during that point, our confidence may go m. Exactly.

Margaret Wood: Yeah.

Georgia: I also heard that you have a really lovely analogy about menopause. And I'm really intrigued to hear it. Could you tell me more?

Margaret Wood: Yes. Well, I've recently read quite a lot, uh, a couple of books by two neuroscientists. One, uh, Dr. Luanne Brizendine, who talks about the menopause as being the upgrade, which I think is a fantastic way to describe it. And the other one is Dr. Lisa Moscone, and she talks about menopause as being a renovation project on the brain. And, um, I thought m. Several decades ago now, we bought a house that was in need of everything doing. And we had to rip out the old wiring, rip out the old central heating, rip out chimney, breasts, the bathroom, the false turn. I mean, it was really big. And we couldn't live in the house for four months. It just wasn't habitable. And when we did move in, we had a bathroom which didn't have a door on. And if you were lying on this luxury bath, it was next to a brick wall, a bare brick wall. And we had one bedroom, which was a family bedroom because we hadn't had time to. We were desperate to move in. We hadn't had time to do any more than this one bedroom. And it took us five years to get everything done. And we're still there now. And we wouldn't leave it because it. It's. And that is what happens with menopause. And I was speaking to a group of women about this. I was doing a presentation at a wellbeing conference. And one of the women came up to me at the end and she said, thank you for that. I've been trying to find a way to describe what I'm experiencing to my husband. And he happens to renovate motorbikes. So I'll use that analogy of the renovation project that things can get really bad, but then they're going to get fantastic. And quite. Several years ago now, I was, um, co. Delivering a workshop. And there was this amazing woman on the course. And she said. And I linked these two together. She feels that she is like the old fashioned switchboard. You know, where they had the plugs going in and out. And, um, her before the switchboard, the plugs were in in a certain way. And then there's all this messing about where they're all crossing over during menopause transition. And then there's the Mark 2 version where they're all in a different place. She's still her, but she's learned an awful lot. And she's got this freedom from monthly hormonal cycles and uh, she's got this newfound confidence. And um, you know, that really for me, those two examples I want to be able to communicate to women, to let them know what is possible and um, for the people that they share their lives with, both at home and at work, to understand that if they can support them through that difficult time for some, then they're going to have this fantastic person at the end of it.

Georgia: It's a journey, isn't it?

Margaret Wood: Um, it is.

Georgia: And I also think that's a really visual way to explain it for a lot of people. It's gonna get hard. Like you said with the house, a Renault is never my favorite thing to do, but the end is incredible. Like you said with your house, you're gonna stay there, you're happy there. Um, people need to understand that and those around them, personally and professionally. I would really love to see HR professionals having a really intentional strategy that's much more proactive, where we look ahead, but also look at each stages of the transition, pre and post.

Margaret Wood: Yes, I think, um, the thing is with postmenopausal women, because a lot of it is they want to give back. They're not necessarily interested in promotion. Mhm.

Georgia: Okay.

Margaret Wood: They might be.

Georgia: Yeah. That's interesting though, because I also think that could be part of the strategy. Like how can we also then get those demographic of our team if they are more inclined to give back to then buddy up with others internally and create a strategy that way.

Margaret Wood: Yes, I think what women who, I mean, I suppose this is what I want to do. I want to share what I've learned with other women and with everyone so that we have a much better understanding and um, can get such enjoyment out of life. Because something he was saying earlier reminded me of a quote by someone who I have a lot of admiration for. She's called Diane Danzibrink. And one of the things that she says is that menopause can take the joy out of life. And I was speaking to a group of women only two or three weeks ago about this and one of them said, that's exactly it. It's the joy that goes out of life. And you know, if we can get that joy back again. Mhm. It's fantastic.

Georgia: I'd love to know from your perspective, say if we were somebody listening to this episode and we didn't have a strategy or anything internally, from your perspective, where can we start? What are those micro items that we can start with as early as today?

Margaret Wood: I think it's having that conversation facilitated by someone like me who knows what they want to bring out. I don't think it can be necessarily a free for all.

Georgia: Um, it needs to be intentional.

Margaret Wood: Yes, exactly. Um, and to include everyone in the organization, perhaps in an informal environment. I mean, I have a thing about. I prefer like we're speaking today face to face. I much prefer that. But if the only way is an online situation, uh, and also it does allow women who don't at the outset feel comfortable in, uh. Well, I suppose. What's it, uh, what is it showing the color, hanging the colors to the mask? Something like that. Yeah. I can't remember the exact phrase. They're still in a menopause concealment. Mhm. Phase. They don't want to have to, uh, they're not ready to own up to it, to come out as menopausal. Um, they might want to hide behind that anonymity. Mhm. And for me, whatever it takes, I will work with an organization with whatever it takes to get that message across, be it face to face, online. Mhm. Or whatever.

Georgia: Yeah, completely. It's also about having a safe space to do that. You were talking then around menopause concealment. I've physically seen that in people as well. So we previously have had, um, it was a, like a Monday tea and chats around menopause. And a lot of people who were attended were there for education rather than sharing their experience or knowledge. But the feedback that we got after as a people team was I felt seen, I felt heard, I felt understood with that point. And then at the next one, the people who were there to be educated, they started to share and it opened up that safe space for people. And I think that's also why facilitation is so important. Women are 50% of our population. The other 50%, we could support women. So this isn't just a nice to have. It's a commercial must notice.

Margaret Wood: Yes. Yeah.

Georgia: Uh, we've gone through quite a few examples and myth busting, which I've learned a lot during this conversation today as well. And I really want to look back to the early stage of your career, starting in taxes. What is one piece of advice that you would give Margaret back then?

Margaret Wood: I think sideways moves. Don't always look for promotion. I've benefited a lot from moving Sideways. Um, it's like what is it? The. The career jungle rather than the career ladder.

Georgia: That is amazing. M. I've never heard that before. I love that.

Margaret Wood: Yeah, it's good, isn't it?

Georgia: Yeah, it's good. Because I also think we are institutionalized to think that we need to go up that ladder, we need to progress in the hierarchy. But actually being more of a specialist and having those side would moves I think is fundamental now in anybody's career. But even more so for the future of work and the way it's going.

Margaret Wood: I think the big thing there is that not going for promotion. Mhm. Isn't seeing as lack of ambition. That if you feel that you're good at something and you really want to give something back, then that should be rewarded, acknowledged, rewarded as much as if you were wanting to get promotion. Because some people just want to get promoted to be promoted. And the recognition that I really feel that I can get this message across at this level better than if I go up to that level. Maybe I could influence the people at board level more, but I'm prepared to influence people at board level from where I am, uh, rather than needing to get onto the board.

Georgia: I love that. Honestly. It's a perspective that no one else has shared and I couldn't agree more. As you're talking with it. The volume of analogies that you've provided has been amazing, honestly. Thank you so much for sharing and please keep continuing doing the work that you. You're doing. There's so much education there and I know so many of us will take inspiration. So thank you so much.

Margaret Wood: Thank you.