Why Most Companies Still Fail to Protect Women

Chloe Wallace: You know, we've recently had it confirmed that there's going to be a ban on NDAs for use in harassment and discrimination cases, including sexual harassment. So no checkbook is big enough anymore to sweep these issues under the carpet. Yes, you can do a settlement agreement. Doesn't mean that person is going to be gagged from talking about the experience they've had in your business.

Georgia: Hello and welcome to the Plum Pod where we talk about all things HR and mental health. I'm your host, Georgia, and founder of Access hr. Before we get into it, I want to start this episode with a disclaimer as we talk about sensitive topics such as sexual harassment in the context of work and sharing real life examples. Today I'm joined by Chloe Wallace, workplace sexual misconduct specialist, as she shares her personal story as well as her framework for how to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace.

Chloe Wallace: Chloe, hi. Hi.

Georgia: Welcome to the Plum podcast.

Chloe Wallace: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. It's such a lovely space as well.

Georgia: I love it. And we've also got such a good day. It is so hot here in London and with us both being from the north, we can definitely feel, uh, it. I went on a walk earlier and honestly I felt like I was on a beach. It's way too hot. But anyway, we are here to, uh, talk about, you, hear about your story and for the people who potentially haven't heard it yet, I really want to take it back. So I've got a question that I ask every single guest and the question is, was HR part of the plan or did this happen by chance?

Chloe Wallace: It happened by chance, definitely. So, um, I went to university to study chemistry.

Georgia: Chemistry.

Chloe Wallace: Chemistry.

Georgia: That's actually the first where it's someone in a science by traditional nature.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, I mean I went to do it and after sort of year one I realized that I hated chemistry. I was crap at maths and I'm actually a people person. Like people fascinate me. Um, so I dropped out, which at the time was like a really brave decision because I was kind of like the first person in the family to go to university. So there's a lot of pressure on. But, um, I dropped out. I already had a part time job at Arnold Clark, so in automotive retail. And I, um, yeah, kind of fell into HR from there, so ended up doing a bit of admin, taxing, um, cars and then moving more into HR admin and just kind of developed from there. So I did my professional qualifications whilst I was working, um, part funded by my employer, part funded by, by me. Um, and just developed and really thrived like being in really commercial environments, if that makes sense. Like fast paced.

Georgia: Yeah, I love that. So when you were more junior, you said around HR admin, give me a quick snapshot of your journey to what's led you here today.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, so, um, worked my way up from admin to advisory positions. Um, did some work in mergers and acquisitions. Ended up moving out of automotive retail and into manufacturing and engineering. I worked for a company that was part owned by the MD M, part owned by the private equity firm. So that was very intense, very fast paced. We did um, five different acquisitions over the course of five years. That business developed from being a 5 million pound turnover to a 24 million pound turnover by the time I exited and it was sold. Um, but my consultancy journey actually started a little bit unconventionally. So when I started my consultancy it was kind of, it was a side hustle basically. So unfortunately I was trapped in a relationship with domestic abuse. A um, lot of coerced debt and I needed to get out. I was very isolated. Isolated, uh, from my family, isolated from my friends. And a lot of people don't know this but the advice I got at the time was to go into a refuge from sort of the National Domestic Abuse Helpline. And yeah, a lot of people don't know this but you can't just go to a refuge for free. You have to pay rent. So. And it's not cheap either. It's, you know, quite costly. It's not just the rent, it's all the overheads and the support that you're getting with that. Uh, um. So they encouraged me really to quit my job to be able to do that. Because if I was in a position where I was unemployed and receiving benefits, the funding would work a lot better and it would be a more affordable situation. But I wasn't really willing to do that. Um, which sounds crazy but it already took everything from me. My independence, my self esteem, like my family, my friends and my career was the one thing that I felt really proud of. It was the only thing that gave me a good level of self esteem. Like I m knew I was good at what I did and I went to work and I had my work identity and my home life which was completely separate. And one of the first disclosures I actually made was to my employer and they were just completely shocked. They didn't believe really that I had all this stuff going on at home. So I built my consultancy as a side hustle. In the space of two years I doubled the turnover I was making to more than my employed income at the time and um, it allowed me to divorce him, move out, pay 6 months rent up front, pay off all my debt and become debt free. So yeah, then I took a bit of time out to heal because I really needed it. And I came back last year, um, sort of relaunched my consultancy in August time with a bit more of a specialist lens on it and just a bit more um, focus and passion and just really now able to bring my full self to my business.

Georgia: And what's the specialist lens that you bring?

Chloe Wallace: So, um, I'm a specialist in workplace sexual misconduct and harassment. I um, am a trauma informed practitioner. A bit that I didn't really say there is. For a couple of years I founded a community interest company. So through that community interest company we supported women who'd been affected by domestic or sexual violence with employability and financial wellbeing resources. So through that I did a lot of personal and professional development, um, around sort of working with people who have experienced trauma. And I started to think like, how can I combine my professional skills as a HR practitioner? And now what I'm really passionate about, which is, you know, putting an end to gender based violence basically.

Georgia: Um, and that's also where I've seen your content and we've had conversations and that's why I really wanted to have you on as a guest with us to share your perspective. Yes, we've had legislation changes that happened towards the end of last year. We still have a long way to go as workplaces for that. And of course this is your specialist area and I would really love to start with understanding what is the difference between preventing harassment and then simply deterring it.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, yeah. So this is the key thing that I think. I've not met a business that has mastered this yet or really understood what it is. So a deterrent is basically having consequences that seem so undesirable or risky that we hope people won't um, engage in that behavior. So that's things like policies that say we have a zero tolerance policy. If you sexually harass somebody at work then you're liable to lose your job. That's a very severe consequence. But as we know, people still choose to do that and it's outside of the workplace. But an example that I use in training to demonstrate this is around drink driving. So we know that drink driving is illegal. Um, you could lose your license, which means you could lose your income, lose your home. Nobody wants to be friends with a drink driver. Uh, ultimately you could kill somebody. There are very serious consequences to that, but people still choose to do it. And um, if we move it back to sort of the legal example there with sexual harassment, we know that this is a really pervasive issue in wider society. There's a less than 2% conviction rate for rape in this country. It's actually 1.6% in England and Wales it's practically decriminalized. So what makes us think that in our organisations we're going to be able to deter people.

Georgia: Mhm.

Chloe Wallace: From perpetrating sexual misconduct when those conviction rates are so low in society, relying on deterrence really isn't effective. So for me, um, organizations need to bear in mind that it's a preventative duty. It is not a duty to inform on the legal whys and what fors. It's not a duty to deter, it's to prevent. So if we break that down, training is key. Absolutely. Um, and training that doesn't um, that is adult. You know, I'm a big believer that if you treat adults like children at work, you can only expect they're going to behave like children. So I go into um, power dynamics, the psychology of sexual misconduct, psychology of victim blaming and self blame, bystander intervention. It's really about disrupting those societal norms that make this behavior acceptable. And I use kind of a um, pyramid diagram to demonstrate how the more we normalize um, rape culture the more it can escalate because it becomes acceptable. So how things like sexist jokes can become um, sexual harassment, sexual assault and even more serious things than that.

Georgia: So we have previously on one of our very earlier episodes spoke around a very much of a introduction to sexual harassment. And this was at the time when the legislation had just come into force. We are miles ahead um, in terms of timescale with that. But I would just love to know from your perspective, how would you describe to somebody what sexual harassment actually is?

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, so any kind of sexual behavior that makes somebody feel degraded, humiliated, uncomfortable. And the tricky thing is that this can vary from person to person. It's not, we're not just responsible for what we say, but how other people perceive it as.

Georgia: Well, um, that's also where the legislation has changed, hasn't it? Around the feeling. So it's not around the intention is how the individual felt.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, yeah, it's not just around intention, it is absolutely about how it's received as well. Um, so I think banter has a big part to play here. Um, and uh, when people think of sexual misconduct.

Georgia: Right.

Chloe Wallace: Or sexual harassment at work, they, the Picture that immediately comes to their mind is the sexy secretary in a man and wife owned business and she's working late at night and the guy tries to force her into some uncomfortable situation. It's that kind of quid pro quo, um, sleeping your way to the top, um, kind of thing that people think of but actually doesn't always happen like that. And one example that I always share in training was an example of male to male harassment. So we had um, in a company that I worked with years ago now, over five years ago, they had workers who were on the shop floor and they were whipping down their overalls and um, taking pictures of their genitals as a joke and sending it to each other. And one day they went a step further and they decided to share their joke with somebody else. So they sent it to an agency worker and he was an older gentleman, he didn't find it funny. So he complained um, that you know, he felt harassed, humiliated, that it was disgusting. And the agency rang the MD and the MD said it's just lads being lads, he needs to get over it. Like don't send him back tomorrow, send somebody else instead. And the agency really wasn't satisfied with that. Uh, so they pulled all their workers from site. Now the MD thought um, you know, I'll just find somebody else to supply those workers. But some of these skills are in really, really short demand. We've got huge skills shortages in most sectors in this country. So couldn't find anybody to come in and do the work. And as a result of that they couldn't complete a project in time, a large engineering project. And they were hit with 3 thousands of pounds worth, I'm talking like tens of thousands of pounds worth of LDs. So late delivery fees, um, from their contract and the point at which they actually got me involved to help was not to address the sexual misconduct but it was to make redundancies because they were in that severe financial distress.

Georgia: It also, that story is a perfect example of how having the education around prevention.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah.

Georgia: But actually also how that potentially could show up in the workplace of banter not being acceptable etc. To then the escalation of it, like that's had such a huge impact now within the organization, but also other people outside of that because of the behaviors. It's interesting, isn't it? Because the challenge that I think we have here is it's happening within organizations. Is there an acknowledgment to the severity?

Chloe Wallace: No, no.

Georgia: Yeah, no, I think we can definitely both agree on that. But what's really key is, I do think organizations want to be more proactive with it, uh, reaching out to yourself and getting that support. Sometimes there may be a misalignment and understanding. Like, I know when I, I speak to my clients, I'm like, okay, what are we doing to prevent sexual harassment? In light with the legislation, they're like, well, it doesn't happen here. We've not had any complaints.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, just because they haven't had any complaints, it doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. Um, for somebody to report harassment, they first have to see themselves as a victim, and then they have to perceive that other people will see them as a victim as well. And going back to, you know, 10 minutes ago, when we know that the conviction rate for serious sexual assault is so low, less than 2%, how are we giving these people in our workplaces confidence that we will believe them and we will act on it and we'll take it seriously and do something about it? So I've developed a continuous improvement framework around sexual harassment prevention. Um, it's the first and I think the only, um, registered trademarked continuous improvement framework around it. It's called the SEAS framework. So it stands for call it out culture. Um, educate, assess your risk, strengthen your systems, evaluate and evolve. And for me, that's been a game changer. When I'm talking to businesses, because you talk about continuous improvement, that's something that they're very familiar with. Um, it's not loaded, it doesn't feel politicized. They can really get on board with implementing a continuous improvement framework. But sometimes when you try and approach them to speak about is sexual harassment or misconduct happening in your workplace, it's just shut down out of fear.

Georgia: Oh, I felt that because I feel like that's also responses that, uh, I've had. Whereas if it's more of a framework continuous improvement, it's terminology and language that doesn't seem scary. Yeah, it's not as fearful. It's more known to them. Um, I'm not surprised that you get a better response with that. You were just talking about the Cs within the framework. Could you give us a really short, sweet intro to each one? So when you say like, call out.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, um, the call out culture that is around making sure that your policy is. It's not just that as a tick box, is that everybody feels there is a zero tolerance and that the workplace is safe and respectful. It's not an add on, it's not a tick box, it's something that you live and breathe. The educate. Um, so you don't just have to educate around sexual harassment, what that behavior looks like. It's about what are we doing about um, power dynamics and how to mitigate power imbalances at work? What are we doing about bystander intervention? What are we doing about um, victim blaming in the company? The A is for assess your risk. So understand where harm is most likely to occur in the business and why. So is it in policy gaps, is it in power gaps, is it cultural norms? Um, the S is strengthen your systems, so reporting systems, for example, policies, processes. Um, and a key thing that I find there is a lot of managers will over promise and then under deliver because they don't understand the subtle differences between words like confidentiality and anonymity. So if you promise that something's going to be anonymous, but what you actually mean is confidential, that can have a huge erosion on trust and the welfare of somebody that's experienced sexual harassment as well. And then the E is for evaluate and evolve. So you've constantly got to be looking at this. It's cyclical, it's not a, uh, once and done type thing. What I do with my clients is I have a pre and post delivery assessment for all training. So it's a paired T test and it allows us to statistically analyze what impact we've had and what risks are uh, still there. So it feeds into their risk assessment and it tells US Right, in 12 months time, we're not simply doing a refresher on what sexual harassment is. We've actually got quite a gap here in manager confidence to respond to disclosures. So we're really going to zone in on that.

Georgia: It's also then going into what responses and feedback you're getting and building for the demographic and the team and the people. And those gaps specifically be more bespoke.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, yeah.

Georgia: Rather than a one size fits all, which is absolutely not what the new legislation is around, it's got to be more bespoke to your environment. And as part of that, what I'm noticing is, is a really great thing with the legislation is extends now to third parties. Yeah, that is causing an issue and I would love to know from your perspective, what can business leaders do when the misconduct does relate to third parties?

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, absolutely. So I think right at the very start it is having a robust approach to your procurement processes. So who are the businesses that you're working with and what do they stand for? Um, you know, a lot of these processes, they are treated like tick box. So it's, have you got a dignity and respect at work policy tick. They've not opened it. Ah. And actually look to see is there a zero tolerance to this kind of behavior in your organization. So I'd say be looking at that and, um, making sure that if you're not satisfied with the content, they actually sign up to your, um, rules that they're gonna abide by your policies. But I think when it comes to, um, reacting to it, that is the most important thing. And you'll know this, that a lot of the time when we get disclosures in hr, people will say to us, I'm telling you this, but I don't want you to do anything about it.

Georgia: Yes. Which makes it particularly hard.

Chloe Wallace: It does. Um, but, you know, we have got a duty of care as employers, not just for the person that's been impacted, but for all employees that could also be impacted. So taking a trauma informed approach is recognizing and acknowledging their feelings. I know this is hard. I respect the way you feel. I have to do something. But let's move forward in a way that you would be most comfortable with. And then talking about options there. Um, you know, they might not want you to go full steam ahead and ringing a supplier and saying, don't send Dave the driver back tomorrow. M. Um, because he's, you know, been winking at Sally. You know, um, because Sally might see Dave out at the pub regularly on a weekend and that might cause something really serious for her. But there are ways of having those discussions and highlighting when something has happened with a third party, what's acceptable and what's not, and involving your employee in that and letting them have some agency and autonomy and over what happens.

Georgia: That was actually going to be my next question to you. Have you found that speaking with the employees and getting their perspective, have you found that to be beneficial in terms of putting actions in place and ensuring that this doesn't happen again?

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, um, the workshops that I run are always debate and discussion focused, so we can really get into it. And language is a big barrier. So I'm a Yorkshire lass anyway, so I'm quite straight talking. But I, I, um, emphasize that when I'm running like workshops or training with employees and we'll have a mixed group of people together and we might say something like, um, if a woman wears a short skirt and gets too drunk at the Christmas party and something happens to her, uh, it's her own fault, she should have been more responsible. What do you think of that? And people will be, oh, ah, that's shocking. That's awful. You know, I would never say that. And then one brave person will say, well yeah. And that's what we hear down the pub and that's what we see in headlines and that's what people comment on Facebook and Instagram and then we can start to unpack. Okay, why do we think this way? What can we do about it? Uh, and what do we need to do as an organization to really um, prevent this from happening? So getting the solutions from the people, not just a top down approach and

Georgia: talking about real life examples.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah.

Georgia: At the same time where people can actually really connect so that it goes back to what you were saying before around like adult to adult conversations for the reality of work. We are also in a new world where unwanted conduct of a sexual nature doesn't have to be face to face and in person as we are now. We've now got a whole new world of technology where it can still happen there.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah. And I think um, you know, on that I've uh, recently read a brilliant book. Um, it's a new book by Laura Bates and it's the New Ages of um, Sexism. How AI is reinventing, um, misogyny and oh, it's a deep dark read that you probably have to do in chunks but it's a brilliant book. And she um, has exposed um, a lot of the stuff that is going on. You know, the technological developments that we're seeing, um, especially with AI and how that is being used as the, it's an, it's the new epidemic in schools basically. Um, deep fakes especially. So we hear a lot about um, deep fakes and the potential impact of them on things like uh, politics. But actually 98 of deep fakes are of women and are of a pornographic nature. So I don't know why we're so worried about politicians.

Georgia: Yeah.

Chloe Wallace: And less worried about about 50 odd percent of the population which then for

Georgia: us as HR professionals I think this is also something that we can just keep an eye on the pulse of what's going on in the wider world. It's no longer just about hr. Ah, it's about the world that we live in. For us to be more progressive and more agile, we do need to be looking ahead. We need to be getting out of that lane, expanding out, whether that is networking newsletters, listening to podcasts like this.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah.

Georgia: It's a way that we can understand what's going on in the world because naturally that's going to have an impact on the workplace.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, is, Yeah, I agree. And I think, um, you know, some of the stuff that is happening around technology is outpacing our kind of current legal and wider institutional frameworks. And what I'd really like to see with the HR profession actually is a move away from generalists. I think over the last decade, the breadth of the role of HR has exploded and it's unsustainable. Um, I remember 10 years ago somebody knocking on my office door and saying, I'm here about the counseling. And this was before, you know, mental health first aid was a big thing. Um, and I was kind of like, well, I'm not a counsellor, but we can have a chat, you know, um, but from sort of well being to menopause to global mobility, um, right through to sexual harassment, I really feel like we need to focus on developing more specialists and move away from the generalist model.

Georgia: I honestly couldn't agree more. And I'm gonna actually jump off the back of your counseling example. I think I've shared this on the podcast before, but I was actually, um, on site with a team and somebody came up to me and said, oh, are you the company counselor? And I was in the people team. And I was like, no, I am not the company counselor. But for me, everything changed on that moment because I thought, wow, the perception is so varied for what we do. And I do also have a lot of junior HR professionals and aspiring people who will say to me, I want to progress in my career and I really want to be a generalist. Why? Why do you want to be a generalist? Like, well, like, if I get really good at er, I'll be, you know, really successful in my career. With the way that technology is advancing. Every single person who asked me that question, I said, no, you need to be a specialist. Yeah, you need to do your admin and advisory work real quick, real quick. Learn the Bobby basics, then become a specialist. That is the best way anybody in their HR career can succeed, in my personal opinion.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree with you. And you know, ER is actually a specialism in itself. Not everybody is capable of doing er. And again, there's so many different angles to that, isn't ah, there. Like, are we talking about, um, collective redundancy consultations or are we talking about disciplinary, um, for financial fraud? Worlds apart. I think there's room for, there is absolutely room for development of more specialists. And don't be afraid, Eva. I think, you know, a year ago now, when I was saying I'm gonna specially specialize in this area. Uh, people told me like, not to do it and that it's stupid and that it was a bit of a fad and it'll all die down. And especially with the way, you know, right wing politics has gone in America, um, people are expecting a natural backlash against HR in the UK because we've been seen as, um, the people that have pushed the WOKE agenda, as it's called. Um, but I just don't believe that at all. Not with the way technology is going and not with the way the legal landscape is evolving as well. You know, we've recently had it confirmed that there's going to be a ban on NDAs for use in harassment and discrimination cases, including sexual harassment. So no checkbook is big enough anymore to sweep these issues under the carpet. Yes, you can do a settlement agreement. Doesn't mean that person is going to be gagged from talking about the experience they've had in your business.

Georgia: And that is so important for people to know because unfortunately, uh, a lot of people do jump to a settlement with situations like that. And I'm actually like, it makes me really happy actually that people are no longer going to be silenced by those sort of documents. And I just wondered from your perspective then, have you found that going in and really honing in on what you're good at as a specialist, have you found that that's actually made you feel more fulfilled in your career?

Chloe Wallace: Yeah, definitely, yeah. You know, my passion and um, skills have absolutely combined and um, there's been times where I've wanted to say yes to stuff just to pay the bills, but I'm like, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm quite a values driven person anyway. And I've always found that when I've said no, I've been redirected to something else. So, um, one example was I've been asked heaps of times to consult on E learning, development of E learning and if I will do an E learning, um, on sexual harassment prevention. And I've said no because I don't think it should be delivered via E learning. And I've worked with one business, um, on that, a company called FLO Hospitality. Um, and that was with full commitment that it was going to be through a trauma informed lens and we'd focus heavily on bystander intervention. M and that's what we did. And you know, that led to more work. So Margaret Wood, who I think you're going to have as a guest on the podcast as well, um, me and her co consulted on development of A E learning, you know, unit for module, unit for, um, menopause at work. But again, my kind of, um, commitment from them was we are going to look at this through a very inclusive and trauma informed lens. And that was things like, you know, um, menopause, um, causes anxiety. Well, no, feeling anxious can be a symptom of menopause. We don't, um, pathologize natural reactions to our bodies or to traumatic things that have happened to us.

Georgia: It also, I think, is a really good example of a really lovely piece that we've been talking about throughout this entire episode around education and intentional investment of education and what that looks like dependent on the organization, their demographic, their working styles and their patterns. I want to look back and I want to reflect. So when you got your first role.

Chloe Wallace: Yeah.

Georgia: What is one piece of advice that you would give your younger self?

Chloe Wallace: I would say, um, personal brand. Like focus on, um, personal brand. And yes. Be yourself. Um, and this is really weird because it was actually a piece of advice that was, um, given to me by someone at some point. But when I received it, I was a bit like, you know, no, um, you know, I don't, don't agree with what you're saying. But, um, on reflection, personal brand is definitely everything. Like, show up as you are. Be a real model. Being a real model is better than being a role model. Um, at work, when we share our stories, I'm very open about my experiences in life and with domestic abuse and stuff. And it creates a safe space for other people to show up as themselves and then when we've unpacked, that they can be their best selves at work as well. People have said to me, like, oh, uh, aren't you afraid, like, by sharing your story you'll put people off wanting to work with you? If sharing my story puts people off wanting to work with me, there's no work to be done because we're not each other's people.

Georgia: No. That is also incredibly powerful. Being real people and being a real model, not a role model. I absolutely love that. Honestly, Chloe, thank you so much. Firstly for sharing your personal story, but also then giving us such great tips and takeaways that we can implement. And honestly, I've loved it. So thank you so much.

Chloe Wallace: No, thank you so much for having me.