Why Working Parents Are Leaving - And How to Fix It

Speaker A: There was a study done by BUPA last year that showed, uh, that one in two people employees will be impacted in their, uh, career by caring responsibility. So we're talking about half of your employees. Right. So although right now there's about six and a half million working parents in the UK, it's going to impact 50% of you at some point in your career and journey. So I think if we think about that as a stat, you then go, okay, what else can we do? And for me, so much of it comes down to the education of line managers and how you're creating an ecosystem of support. Mhm. For the individuals in your workplace.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the Plum Pod where we talk about all things HR and mental health. I'm your host Georgia and and founder of Access hr. On today's episode, I'm joined by Becky Nazareth as we talk about one of the most critical, yet overlooked aspects of a modern HR strategy, when employees become parents. As a working parent specialist, Becky brings her perspective on how we can create environments and experiences that work for both the employee and business objectives. Becky, hi. Hi. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker A: Honestly, it's already a pleasure, so thank you for having me.

Speaker B: You've seen our studio in real life. I know you're a listener, but seeing it, is it different?

Speaker A: Uh, no, not really.

Speaker B: Just a lovely, zen, warm space. Perfect.

Speaker A: Uh, it's giving me all the good vibes.

Speaker B: Perfect. And we'll keep those good vibes going today as well. So there is a question which you will likely know. So the question we have for every guest is, is one that lets our listeners know a bit more about you. So we're kind of going to take it back a little bit. Was HR part of the plan or did this happen by chance?

Speaker A: Uh, I'm going to go by chance. People were always part of the plan for me. So I have always loved interacting, working with people. I think it's really interesting when you're growing up and you love people. I thought I'd just be a teacher because, you know, I'm with people all the time, I'm supporting children. And so that was the start of a plan. And I did that for a little bit. I went into the education industry and I actually worked for a company, so private education, who managed tuition centers. So I went in as a manager, as a grad and looked after these centers with loads of kids. But very quickly I started to realise that what I love more than anything was developing the people. And that was my route into hr people experience. So I've always sat on the learning and development side of it, and I just love it. It aligns with my values. I love being in a place where I'm able to kind of empower and uplift others. And so moved into a learning and development team within that organization, stayed there for quite a long time, ended up leading that team, um, before I or had kids, and everything changed and I launched my own business instead.

Speaker B: Love that. Speaking of kids, we, uh, are going to really focus today on what actually is the reality of the modern world for working parents and also what can we do as HR professionals to be more proactive rather than the tail old being reactive within the this space. What is it in particular for you that sparked your interest to be more of a working parent specialist?

Speaker A: Honestly, having kids, which is so funny, right? Because, um, we have so many people that work day to day with parents and working parents and carers actually, and I think that should be part of our conversation today. But because they don't have the lived experience, it's really hard to understand the nuances and actually the whole experience of what's happening to you as a parent. So I've got two children and it was actually after having my second that I had started to really feel that there was a big area that needed a lot of work. I became more attuned to it, the fact that there was a big discrepancy between, you know, what work structures looks like today and actually what you need as a working parent to do a great job. Um, and I then had done further training as a coach and my co founder Jess, who I founded Wonderful Brilliant with, came to me and was like, do you want to do it a different way, alternately a more flexible way? And that's where we came to with founding a business that works on supporting organizations with working parents.

Speaker B: I love that. And a lot of what we're going to get into today, quite selfishly, I'm going to learn from you and I will be really honest. And I've been honest in this podcast before, I don't have children. I hope that's in the near future for me. But I definitely have been guilty throughout my career that because I don't have that lived experience, it hasn't always been top of mind for me. And I think as part of this conversation, there may be people who feel very similar to me, but they want to know, um, how we can do those things. And of course you can definitely share more with what you're doing with your business at the moment too. So for Anybody who is listening, what would you define as a working parent?

Speaker A: So a working parent would be. And actually let's call them working parenting carers because I think that's more holistic. Anybody who has been through a family forming journey and that looks very different. I think the great thing about the society we live in today is that's more acknowledged and perhaps you have any kind of caring responsibilities and you're also in paid work.

Speaker B: Mhm. Okay. How has that changed in recent years?

Speaker A: The landscape I would say is both changing. Like there's a really positive movement, but there's a lot of systemic issues that are causing continued challenge. And so I think that, you know, we can look at the scary bigger picture of the systemic problems. And I think it's really important to note that because like you say, if you're not a parent, you aren't aware that a lot of this is going on. And the perhaps that um, people who are working parents and carriers are continually kind of hitting against bias in society. But then there's a lot of good stuff that is moving and changing and HR professionals are a huge part of that.

Speaker B: I think when we were talking about coming here and uh, doing this episode, it was actually government changes around parental leave. And we're seeing big changes already in 2025. So we've got carers leave, we've got neonatal leave. We've also now at the time of recording this, we've been given more insight around 2026 and day one rights for um, parental leave and um, unpaid parental leave as well. There is such big changes coming. Are we slow to it? Yes, I think so, in my opinion. Um, but it's really amazing, even for somebody who isn't a working parent or a carer, it's really amazing to see that we are seeing change. But I think we, whilst you're saying we're still, you know, we're really leading the charge and the advocates, I think there's so much more that we could do.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the more that we can do is what comes with the awareness and the brilliance that is changing. And there's a lot of people out there that are change makers and driving that forward and we're seeing that with equity around parenting. So I think the movement, Elliot Raiders, parenting out loud, Jolie Brearley, like, I think they're fantastic because what they're doing is they're going, let's paint a picture of how it could be more equitable for working parents. And actually that isn't just about the Mum. Because it's a gendered issue.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So most of the impact is on women.

Speaker B: Hm.

Speaker A: But if we change, don't change things for men or you know, whoever the other parent is in the relationship. If you're lucky enough to be two of you parenting, then things aren't going to move forward for working parents. Um, so these, these like legislative stuff that's happening that's brilliant because it enables there to be a starting point.

Speaker B: There's also a lot of talk online around paternity leave and secondary parent leave with the statutory amount just being two weeks, which I cannot imagine how that also feels as a secondary parent only having two weeks seeing your primary and then having to go back to work. A lot of organizations are going more enhanced with it. Some are even matching the levels, which I'm totally on board for and I absolutely love. In terms of looking ahead then knowing that as an HR professional, what can we start to look at?

Speaker A: So I think that there's a couple of different things that's important to consider. So one is you do have to look at your policy. So yes, there's legislative changes, um, hardware to say that one. And uh. M. Make sure you have to make sure that you're embedding that in your organization. That's your foundation. Yeah. Okay. So um, I watched the episode you did with Kelly who was talking about this and she talk about policy is setting intention and I think that's a great way of looking at it. And you know, I'm by no means a policy expert. My background's in learning development, supporting parents. Right. But uh, there's some great resources out there that can help you. So I often use Open Org, their membership platform. They've got loads of stuff that can help you create the policies. Also what you're doing is you're creating policies that provide equity. Mhm. But that's, that's your foundation and I think that's your starting point if you're a HR professional. But there's so much more that is going to impact the whole parental experience of your working parents and carers. And I think just to lay the groundwork of I think why it's so important, there was a study done by BUPA last year that showed that one in two people employees will be impacted in their career by caring responsibility. So we're talking about half of your employees. Right. So although right now there's about six and a half million working parents in the UK it's is going to impact 50% of you at some point in your career. And journey. So I think if we think about that as a stat, you then go, okay, what else can we do? And for me, so much of it comes down to the education of line managers and how you're creating an ecosystem of support.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: For the individuals in your workplace.

Speaker B: That's actually a huge statistic.

Speaker A: One in two, it's mad, right?

Speaker B: Yes, that is huge. But also how are we not building for our reality?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you talk then just around line managers and starting with them. Um, how can we actually start to build awareness for our managers?

Speaker A: So it isn't an easy job. Um, we know that around 85% of managers in the UK like they're here accidentally, like deemed accidental. Um, and many of them don't have training. So I think it's starting with putting in formal structures in place that enable them to ultimately build understanding around the lived experience. So there's a mindset shift here, I think that goes caring isn't the exception, it's the norm. So if that's the case, how can I, with my line managers help them understand that? And so there's a mindset shift that I think needs to happen because many managers may not have that lived experience of being parents. And then I think after that it's about giving them the skills and developing the skills that enable them to communicate well, to have empathy with the situation, ultimately to meet an individual where they're at.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: And think about how they can flex to best support them. Because if you do that, you're going to get better performance, better productivity and you're going to retain your people, which we all know the cost of retraining, recruiting and retraining talented individuals into your organization. So it definitely starts there, starts with that mindset and the knowledge and skill building.

Speaker B: You're absolutely right as well. If I think of my experience with being a manager, as I said, I don't have children, but I could have really done with that mindset shift because I'm also looking at it through my own lens and my own eyes of course, not really thinking more wider with that. And the education I think is an absolutely great place to start. And then potentially even keeping regular rhythms and flexing on that muscle a little bit more because I do see this a lot. Unfortunately people do a one and done management, um, experience or an incredible workshop on supporting working parents and carers once a year, if that, and then leave it. We, we need to get more into a routine where it's the norm, as you just said.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and it's and it's talked about and it's built on and you know, he got into my L and D head where we all know one off, one off workshops don't work. Right. But we, we need to build a whole system around and how to embed that in the organization. So the line manager support, I think, I believe it starts with more formal education because I think that's always a starting point and a catalyst for change. But absolutely what then comes with it is ongoing conversations. It's ensuring that ultimately it's how to lead and manage more inclusively and that isn't actually just going to benefit your working parents, that's going to benefit every single person that you manage. Um, so I think sometimes, you know, organizations look at leadership programs and building that, leading with inclusivity and communication skills into, to practise. But however you do it, it does need to be an ongoing conversation. Um, and probably what comes with that is creating spaces for your working parents to talk openly about their experience.

Speaker B: And what sort of spaces are you meaning when you suggest that?

Speaker A: So we've seen it done well in a couple of organizations we work with where it's like lunch and learns, share experience, chat about. Um, might be actually that you're setting up ergs or just community supports where individuals are connecting with one another. Uh, and sometimes it's inviting line managers in to have conversations with them. So I think it's been quite clever. It doesn't have to be costly because, you know, I mostly work with scaling organizations and they don't always have the money to put into infrastructure that is, you know, very tangible and solid, but you can make it so that you're just opening up social learning experiences as well.

Speaker B: Do your clients ever speak to their people first before they reach out to you for any sort of strategies, like are they getting that data from their people or do you find that you then come in and get the data from their people of what they're really looking for?

Speaker A: I think I'm quite lucky to work with quite a lot of progressive companies. So they're coming to us because they know they want to make a difference. Right. And actually some of the organizations I work with are doing this so well. Um, have you heard of smol?

Speaker B: No, tell me more.

Speaker A: So smol, um, I'm going to do a poor job of explaining now, but cleaning, yes, cleaning. And it's all eco friendly, all. It's all about sustainability. So they're doing amazing stuff. They're a scaling organization but they've got the policy in place They've put systems of support in place. So I go in and I do one to one coaching with their parents uh, to be. And when they return and then you know they've got, they've got great ways of uh, flexibility and flexible working. So many of them work quite hybridly or completely remotely and basically it's going find organizations that uh, are doing it. Well. Voucher code is another one that I know does some great stuff with how to pull people into the office for it to be intentional but not just to do it for the sake of return to office mandates. Which is stuff that parents are quite scared of.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So being pulled back into the workplace when you've got additional caring responsibilities is challenging. So I think you find those and you go right, how are they doing it? And a lot of the time it isn't at huge cost. It's intentionality.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: That's the proactive point. Right.

Speaker B: I can imagine as well. That has quite a lot of impact for me. I'm thinking around. So you just said that the coaching for parents, working parents in preparation.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: But then also for their return. And it made me think what are the gaps in our mindset that we're missing for the return piece? Because I don't think in my experience as an ah, HR professional I haven't thought about both.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And it's, it, it needs to be thought about. And the reason for this is like somebody with lived experience of it. You go through this huge identity shift when you become a parent and I think that happens for both parents, not just the birthing parent or however you form your journey. It's an identity shift because you have this whole other person to be responsible for. And we know now, now know that there are changes in the brain that come with that uh, that lots of things happen to your whole body. Everything's going on socially, your psychology like there's just so much that builds experience. And then however, depending on how long you take off and if you're lucky maybe in the UK you'll take nine months to a year. And uh, then you go back into the workplace which has often evolved since you've been off. And what, what you get is you go wait, I've gone through this huge shift and I'm trying to figure out who I am still and where work fits and, and it's like a jigsaw puzzle that you're trying to piece together and at the beginning you don't know how you piece it together. It doesn't fit at the beginning And I think it's quite an emotional and physical experience for parents and perhaps that is something that is overlooked.

Speaker B: What can we do as professionals to better support our parental returners?

Speaker A: I think it starts before they go off. This is the proactive piece. Right. So it starts with um, having clarity. So I'm a big fan of the scarf mod. It's about the model of um, human behaviours and drivers. So it stands for status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness and fairness. And I think certainty is really triggered when you are forming a family. And that is because you don't know what it's going to look like. You don't know what's going to come next. And so you feel that. And I think if you are able as a HR professional and an organization to provide certainty by saying we know you're about to go off. Here's the policies that you need, here's the financial information, here is everything that we're going to give you about how you can support the return. They're free of worry and it kind of allows them to focus on this monumental shift that's going on in their personal life as opposed to work as well. So I think it starts there but then in the instance when they come back, it's about re inducting them into the workplace m and not treating them just because we might show up with a smile and everybody pretend that they're doing a great job of knowing it, um, that you're able to provide that support and kind of build the structure over time. Um, the number one thing that the parents I coach say to me when they go back to work is I don't know how everybody else is managing it because I'm not. And I'm like every number one thing time and time again. I've actually sometimes coached numerous, often women at the same time in an organization and all of them will say that to me and I'm like, not to break confidentiality but everybody's saying it to me. So. So I think there's like a perception because we all show up and pretend we're fine.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: That we aren't transparent about how difficult that journey can be.

Speaker B: Do you find that it also comes down to the culture and psychological safety within an organization where people can say that they're not okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, hugely. I think that element of knowing that people have done it before them and their job. Isn't their job safe? That they're safe, they're allowed to have time to adapt and they are psychologically safe ultimately in that environment. Has a huge impact, especially if they can heir it to their line manager.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And that's where it circles uh, back around to that line manager education is, is the person that is providing that lived experience of that moving into the workplace, are they giving you the support and the compassion that you need at that period of time?

Speaker B: I also love when you were talking about setting them up before going on leave around everything that they need to know, especially if they're first time parents. I get a lot of questions that I think people know. And again this is the naivety of not being a parent. But there are some times where we can make their lives a hell of a lot easier by providing that information because it is such a monumental moment as you just described. Do I want to go on parental leave and think about work?

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: I want to embrace as I expand and celebrate my family and we can make that so much easier. We can take that load off of them. But it goes back to being proactive rather than being reactive. I've um, in the past worked with organizations who have no family friendly policies other than one. And I will say, why have you got one? And I will say, well someone went on maternity leave last year, so I've just got one. That's the issue that we're having. Mhm. We're being too reactive.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. You're waiting for it to happen to your people until you put the things in place. And all that does is it you're going to have people like you say openly thinking about at some point that's going to happen in the future. And if you're not seeing it around you, if you're at least not seeing your organization prepare for that, you're just going to be worrying about the impact it's going to have and that I think, you know, actually most people don't leave organizations when they're at that point because they're thinking about it. Um, but it doesn't mean that they're not considering like how am I going to manage. And you're ultimately just putting more stress on what can be already a bit of a scary situation for a lot of people because it's the first time they've done it.

Speaker B: Couldn't agree more. I want to jump back a little bit. You were talking about re inducting parents. Hm. On their return back to work. Would you describe that similar to like an onboarding process with a new hire? What would that look like?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think if it was done well it would be I think. But I also think there'd be a lot of flexibility going on and that's perhaps the element we haven't touched on hugely yet because I think across the, the parental and carer journey it's ever evolving and there's always stuff that comes up. So we focus quite strongly, I think the companies that are doing it well nowadays on that return and less so on the fact that if you've got working parents, they're probably carrying a load.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: At different points around different things. Right. My six year old throws different challenges at me all the time and I don't know where they came from. Um, and as does my 3 year old and you know, I'm way out of that return to work phase. So I think it's about going well actually on a rewind. How are you going to support them all the way through? And with that return to work it's about flexibility. So can we slowly move them back into the workplace on like a three day model to start off with, build up to whatever they're returning back to. And the reason for that is, you know, you want to be thinking about they're dealing with dropping off their, their baby who's just got so, you know, that's so emotional for so many parents and it just gives them a chance to move back into the rhythm of separating and figuring out what work life and home life looks like.

Speaker B: It also makes me think too the responses that I've also had from people returning from parental leave where they've explained I want to spend more time with their new child, which I totally understand. It's also. That's the reality. The statistic is still on my mind that you said earlier, one, uh, in two will have their responsibilities. Why are we not being more adaptive rather than, you know, saying five days a week, nine till five in the office, we're not being flexible and we're going to lose a hell of a lot of talent. But the companies who are really seeing and recognizing their people have put in such incredible support frameworks and I'm loving to see them anywhere. That's the future of work. That's the inspiration where also they recognize their people as a benefit to their business.

Speaker A: Oh hugely. And the fact that their people experience will provide their client experience or their service experience or anything that's happening there. So it's cyclical and you have to invest in people to get it back and to have the return and yeah, I think that is what. You know what, I don't think it's the HR professionals that we need to get on board with that it's, that they are, you know, tackling senior leadership and key stakeholders of understanding. And so when it comes to flexible working, we've had this huge shift post Covid. Um, and that shift has enabled so many working parents and carers to do their job and do their job better because there's ease with them being able to do their caring responsibilities and work. And about 35%, I think it is, of parents work hybridly. Right now we just need to be careful because back to work mandate is happening. Um, I Read from your LinkedIn post the other day about the importance of that connection and being in work. And I completely agree. I think being in the office is a brilliant thing for lots of people. It's just around flexibility. So flexibility of hours, flexibility of, like, when they can show up and what days they can do and, and making it so it doesn't just have to be a, uh, always thing.

Speaker B: Yeah, completely. And with that post, I also loved the response that people gave to it because they're like, yeah, like, we want that connection, but it's also got to work at the same time. I've seen so much online where people are like, return to the office. One people don't want to. I don't know anyone who wants to go five days.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But then also, if we're potentially doing more of a hybrid approach, but we don't have the core hours that allow that flexibility again, I think we're not moving ahead to the modern world that we're actually all living in. You were talking just then around not necessarily being hr, but more of the senior stakeholders. What is your advice for any HR professional who's listening for how we can start to plant those seeds for the importance to our senior stakeholders?

Speaker A: Um, I think our senior stakeholders love statistics. Oh, they do the data. They do. And so I think there's, there's a huge amount of research that backs up now why flexible working works for working parents and carers, um, the working families, um, charity. They've got loads of research that's come out in the last few years that support that. And I think you draw on that data and you say, look, this is what, this is what the research is saying. You then talk to your people and there's some really key stats that I don't think we track or measure that should be looked at, which is what's happening to your parents when they return to work.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: One year, three years after. Are they getting promotions?

Speaker B: Are they leaving?

Speaker A: Why are they leaving? You know, that's slightly longer term data to look at but you can absolutely capture feedback and sentiment from your people. And I think if you take that and you showcase how you could make it work and perhaps ways that people are like the four day week, so much traction being gained and m how performance and productivity is increased through delivering it in that way and then you do the slow moves as to like what could it look like and the key steps and outlining what they could be.

Speaker B: I love that really good advice as well because I think that's the biggest challenge because most of us become business owners unfortunately to get the flexibility.

Speaker A: Yeah, I did.

Speaker B: Yeah. I'm also building my business for my future family so that I've got that flexibility. So this is where for me this conversation is amazing because I'm also, also learning whilst thinking about my future and also being a better professional, like how can I better support uh, working parents and carers back into the workplace. And unfortunately I do think it's those small acorns, those uh, small but impactful data filled conversations with our stakeholders to get them on board. And like you said, looking ahead, looking more long term and speaking to our people. As you're talking now, I'm actually reflecting on my career and I was in the early years space education for nearly six years.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: We were a 97% female workforce and we had a lot of primary carers there. Did I look enough at the data? No. And I'm thinking now I could have actually seen so much richness in that data but unfortunately at the time it just, it wasn't something oh that was top of mind. And I'm just thinking there's so much there of value I could have brought to the, to the team.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, and we can all reflect on that.

Speaker B: I think.

Speaker A: I don't think there's a single parent that I know that hasn't looked back of their life pre kids and gone, oh, if only I've known this or if only I'd known that. And also it's a different journey for everyone.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So everyone's gonna experience it in a different way. But I think if we have that knowledge now it seems silly not to like share that far and wide. And if you do then build your own understanding going how can we make it? How can we make a system that actually works for half of the people in it? Um and if we can do that we're ultimately all going to be better. And we know that all of our business leaders just want performing businesses that are making money because that's how it works. And if you're able to invest in your people particularly at different life stages in the moments that matter. That's how you're going to get.

Speaker B: That completely goes back to uh, we need to get better at asking questions. Yes. As well. And actually asking the people how could we have made your return better? What's one thing that you would recommend for us to do? And previously um, you mentioned Kelly. So I had an episode with Kelly and one thing that she said that really has stuck with me. You touched on it ever so slightly just then around different stages. So rather than just thinking of the return post maternity leave, paternity leave, check parental thinking more around then the transition stages. Mhm. As they get older as well. And what does that actually mean? I hadn't thought about that before.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's. And it's things like for parents when your kids start school.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: It's mind boggling. I honestly was like how do people do it?

Speaker B: How.

Speaker A: How do I work and have a child in school when you only go to school nine till three. And yes there's wraparound care and there's ways that you can manage it once you've figured it out. But then there's the. And six weeks of summer holiday which I'm about to enter into and it's a whole different life stage. And actually are we supporting parents to have the flexibility in the summer that they may need to get their kids to camp that maybe isn't the same hours to ultimately just manage caregiving and work responsibilities. And it's a jigsaw. But the jigsaw changes all the time and that's why we need to be conscious I think of ongoing changes and

Speaker B: flexibility and it also changes dependent on their personal situation.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: With everything like I've had it before where a lot of people as managers their immediate responses, well can someone else not step in and that might not always be an option. Everything you're saying is absolutely circling back to the leadership um conversation that we were having much earlier on. And I definitely think that is an area that us as professionals we can also speak to our senior stakeholders as an area of development. Mhm. For not just ourselves but also for all of our line managers into internally so that they're not waiting for a situation to happen to then learn but being more proactive.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely Becky.

Speaker B: Unfortunately I've only got one more question which has been lovely. It has. And this has been such a learning for me. Like honestly you've really opened my eyes. So. Thank you. And thinking of your career when you were A grad.

Speaker A: Uh-huh.

Speaker B: Going into the management role. Looking back, what is one piece of advice that you would give your younger self?

Speaker A: That's a great question. I think it would have been know yourself and your values. So so much of what I now do and so much of what I support other people in is knowing what your core values are so that you can make decisions that align with them.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think throughout our career we come up against many difficult decisions and trying to figure out the journey and what that looks like for us. And I think if I so strongly know my values at that stage, it really would have supported me in aligning of, like, where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do and who I was.

Speaker B: Yeah. How can we start to do that? Because I did the same. I, um, wouldn't say I really. I always knew mine, but I didn't like, know them, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's the articulation different.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: How can we.

Speaker B: How can we start to do that? What's a small thing that we can do to understand?

Speaker A: Um, I think self reflection and using activities. So amazing. If have an amazing know your values activity that you can literally work through online and. And it just provides you with clarity over why do I react to certain things a certain way. Why does this thing feel wrong for me? Why does this feel right for me? And I think being able to articulate that and use that to drive you forward ultimately just makes us better people, makes us know who we are.

Speaker B: Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you. Uh, no, of course. Honestly, this has been amazing. And thank you so much for sharing your experience as well. And thank you. I know all of our listeners, especially me, have taken so much away from this.

Speaker A: Yes, it's been great to be here.