Standing Out in the AI Age: How to Stay Visible, Valuable, and Relevant with Sally Helgesen

Speaker A: Welcome to the Good Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Charles Goode. This is our next solo conversation in our 300th episode milestone series, what it Takes to Keep rising in the AI Era. Last month I released the series opener, uh, a combined episode with all six experts in this milestone series. So if you haven't listened to that one yet, make sure to check it out after this conversation. My guest for this episode is Sally Helgeson. Sally, who is an international best selling author, speaker, leadership coach, and is cited in Forbes as one of the world's foremost experts on women leadership. Her work has helped leaders understand that, uh, success is, uh, not simply about doing excellent work. It's about making value of that work visible, building relationships that you can expand upon to build your impact, and learning which habits you need to leave behind as you grow. In this episode we dive into questions that feel increasingly urgent in this AI era, such as when technology makes it easier to produce polished work, how do we make sure we are still developing real capability beneath it as the pace of work accelerates? How do leaders create cultures where people feel seen, respected and able to contribute? And as careers change faster than ever, what actually continues to compound over time? I hope you enjoy this episode. Welcome to the Good Leadership Podcast. I'm Charles Goode. This show is built for leaders, managers and high achievers who want to think better, grow faster and perform under pressure. Each episode I sit down with leading researchers, best selling authors and experts to uncover what actually works, the practical tools, proven strategies and insights you can use when the pressure is real. Because in a world that keeps changing, the edge belongs to those who can out learn what worked yesterday, out think what coming next, and outperform when it counts. Welcome to the program, Sally.

Speaker B: Thank you, Charles. It's always a pleasure to be with you.

Speaker A: So Sally, 300 episodes in, I keep seeing leaders who are committed as ever, but are less sure about where it's all going. So before we get into those four questions, just want to ask you, in your 35 plus years of coaching, is there one behavior, one attitude that you see that's more relevant now?

Speaker B: Yes, I do. And I think that is being able to practice an inclusive style of leadership that creates what I call cultures of belonging that people want to belong to, that people want to devote their hard work to, cultures, uh, that ignite their excitement about what they're working on. I think that's more important than ever. The technology really kicked this off. People needed to look for what is my purpose in this very fast changing world. And I think it's more true than ever.

Speaker A: I love that. And you're right, inclusive leadership careers are more important now than ever. With all these obstacles in its place, we're really trying to navigate those more successfully and it's really a, ah, perfect gateway or doorway into that. First question that I wanted to ask you that I keep hearing from many leaders. Why are so many smart, committed leaders working harder than ever before right now, but feeling less confident, uh, about their future than they did five to 10 years ago?

Speaker B: Well, I think that this has been true for about the last 30 years. I've been watching this world very closely for 40 and writing about it. But I think it has been true ever since digital technology came on the scene because it operates in very fast product cycles. So people are always being asked to upgrade their skills and learn a new technology and that that can be very time consuming and that tends to all be in addition to the regular job that they're doing. And there seems to be often less and less support for learning that it's just learn it. Here you go. So that's one of the things. Another thing I think it's really important to understand, which is that digital technologies do operate at a speed beyond human, human consciousness, which means they are programmed to exhaust us. This will be even truer as we move into the AI era. And I think it's one of the reasons we hear students at commencements who are booing like crazy when speakers mention AI. Uh, it's not only that they recognize it may be coming for their jobs, but it is also that they understand that it's going to make their work tougher and less satisfying. So that's where we are.

Speaker A: Is there one respectable strategy, something that looks like diligence that quietly erodes a leader's long term leverage that you've seen recently?

Speaker B: Well, I've seen this for years where a leader feels pressured to put more pressure on, on his or her people. When they really know that they're asking the impossible. They feel that they can't, as uh, Peter Drucker would call it, manage upward. They can't manage the expectations of those above them. So they have to keep pulling people in and saying, okay, we're going to have to work like crazy on this, but in a week and a half we'll be finished. And they know that what's coming down the pike is going to be the same deal. So that's where they begin to lose credibility and people begin to lose heart and disengage from the organization. They just feel like I'm being asked to do what is beyond my capability. So we need leaders at a, uh, mid and mid senior level who are better at pushing back against expectations that are unrealistic and that are only going to drain them of good people.

Speaker A: One, from our prior conversations too, Sally, you mentioned that, uh, especially for female leaders, they believe that the work should speak for themselves so they aren't as focused on visibility. And I would argue that visibility is even harder these days with so much work being pushed out by technology, by AI to try to get more visibility. What would you recommend, especially to female leaders who adhere to that adage that if I just do great work, it's going to speak for itself and I'm going to get promoted?

Speaker B: Well, recognize that that has, has never been terribly effective, but it's particularly, uh, ineffective now. So what you have to do is not have that expectation and then try to be very clear about not just, well, I worked really hard on this and blah, blah, blah. But here's the value that this work is providing to you. Let me quantify it for you. Let me give you a chart, a flow chart of the value this provides to the organization. And I need you to understand how important this is not only to our flourishing, but to our survival. Uh, so we need to get smart. And this is for men and women both because as you point out, Charles, this is happening because of technology. It makes it more difficult for almost anybody to get visibility unless they're the person in charge and then they're really sucking up a lot of space and time. But is more and more important and it is more difficult and it requires a real strategy to do it. And it also requires, uh, you're enlisting other people because this is one of those things that you just can't do do alone. You need to get people who speak on your behalf, um, offer to speak on their behalf and really create that kind of web of, uh, inclusive relationships that enables you to have many more channels to bring visibility to the importance of what you're doing.

Speaker A: I love that. And that really speaks to the second area of just in this AI error, what actually still compounds for a leader versus what is most at risk of being lost? Because you and I have talked about this before, about imposter syndrome syndrome and people believing that they're not ready for the role. But AI makes that very easy to do because you can produce this polished output and you're not capable underneath which I think would amplify the imposter syndrome instead of minimizing it. But talk to me, what you think would compound for a leader versus what's kind of at risk of being lost in this AI error.

Speaker B: Well, that's really fascinating about the way that AI can support the imposter syndrome because you, you didn't do the work yourself. So I think that's, that's something that I really want to give some thought to. I hadn't thought of that before. Very good. But what compounds, I think, for leaders is that people want to be seen, they want to be recognized, they want to feel that their voice is heard and respected. That doesn't necessarily mean someone will go along with it. They may disagree, but they want to feel as if they are heard and respect it. And only a human, at least in this stage of our development, and I believe going forward, is capable of providing that. So we need leaders who are really good at being able to pace their tempo, to look someone in the eyes, to really listen to what they're saying and to resonate with what the feeling behind it is, to understand that and to make that person feel as if he or she is valued. That doesn't mean they're guaranteed to have a job forever, but that's fine as long as you can feel that you are valued and people understand the worth of what you contribute. And this is something that an algorithm cannot do when you're right.

Speaker A: Because if AI levels everyone's output, does claiming your contribution, the thing that you've been coaching leaders for years, does that become more important or less important?

Speaker B: I think it becomes really more important because guess what? If you're handing all this off to AI, you don't own it. It may be your intellectual property, it may be your effort. OpenAI owns it. Let's face it, you don't. And you're not going to go up against them to claim your authorship rights. So it is particularly important in this era to be very clear about the contributions you have made and not shy away from that. Not like, feel like, well, I'm not really that important, or, you know, well, there are other people on my team who helped. Of course there were. We can't do it alone. That's understood. But it's very, very important. Uh, especially when you can hollow out your own value so easily by an over reliance on AI tools, whether it's writing in ChatGPT or whether it's, you know, a consultant, which I hear all the time, oh, I'm putting everything out on a bot, and people will be able to use that and I'll be able to reap benefits from that, well, you know, you're commoditizing the service, uh, that you're, that you're offering in the world. But that's fine. Have at it if you want to, but don't forget that you won't own it. So I think that's one of the things that, in the enthusiasm is being overlooked.

Speaker A: That's a good point. I'm also curious about your thoughts, because a lot of senior leaders that I talk to and interview, they learn judgment by doing the junior grunt work that AI now does. So we're automating the bottom rung of the ladder that everyone above had to climb. So I see that as a possible issue as well, because how is this apprenticeship problem, uh, going to surface in terms of how do they get the experience if they're never given that opportunity?

Speaker B: How do you know what's right or what's wrong if you haven't done it? You can't be useful to a more junior person because you can't tell them, you know, really, I'm not sure this is going to work because I, I had this experience and this is what happened. So we don't have the benefit of just simply of learning from one another as human beings. And this isn't, as Jon Stewart might say, this isn't just an issue for humans. It's an issue for mammals. I mean, mammals teach their young skills, and we learn from one another. And trying to outsource that, um, is very dangerous because we can't teach. We're going to have younger generations coming up. And I'm certainly not suggesting that the people out there now are like this, but we're going to have generations coming up who have not been able to learn because those above them have not been able to teach.

Speaker A: And that really speaks to expertise and really getting people to that expert level. Because I'm sure as you are gaining your expertise and your experience, that was a valuable part of your overall career trajectory. Right. And by skipping that step, that could pose some, uh, challenges for people wanting to become someone in your role or an expert in their respective field without having to go through the grunt work, the times in which they weren't the expert learning, the practice, being that apprentice that now is so easily, um, that you can offload A.I.

Speaker B: that's exactly right. And you learn it from people you respect, and you kind of choose your teachers and your teachers choose you. So it's that process of connecting with people whose expertise is much more developed than yours or people coming up that really creates the path that defines what your trajectory has been and what your legacy in the world will be. So these are very important things that we're kind of trifling with at this point. And I think it's just very important for people to be aware of what we're risking. I can't tell you how moved and encouraged I was and how much I really learned from the Pope putting out an encyclical on AI, the one Magisterium Humanitas that came out a couple weeks ago, this is in June. And I found it really fascinating because he's not a Luddite at all, and he made that very clear. But the idea was that these technologies will be of benefit if they serve human beings. We're not there to serve the technologies, which is not really something you hear from a lot of AI developers, a lot of those who are at the top. You know, their idea is this is good, that we should be there to be the servants of something that is exponentially better than we as, uh, frail and fragile humans could ever be. And that's a very dangerous, uh, point of view. And in the encyclical, the Pope points out that what it is at risk of doing, one of the many things it's at risk of doing, is just completely undermining the dignity of work and work relationships. And so that set me thinking about this word dignity, because it has a. A sort of industrial era connotation of, you know, the dignity of work. But it's really. Isn't that a primary part of feeling engaged? We feel that our own dignity, our own worth as a human being is seen and appreciated, and that enables us to grow, that enables us to flourish, to really make a contribution to our job, to our field, to our neighborhood, to our world. It's that that does it, that feeling that we. That our dignity is honored and that we're part of something bigger that actually matters, but we're a part of it. It's not just that there's something bigger than us and we're trying to, you know, serve it. We are a part of it. I often think that's one of the reasons I happen to love cop shows. But people seem to when they get really involved in shows like this, they like cop shows, they like, um, medical shows, because they're what draws you to it. It's the team. It's seeing the team work together, seeing the team sort of understand one another's humanity and work with other people who are flawed like they are. And I think that's an exciting part. That's part of what work does for us. And it's not something should be lost. And that's part of why I think this encyclical is so important, especially because it's not Luddite in its point of view. It says, you know, they're fantastic things. Certainly we see them in medicine that can come about, but we need to understand what the cost could be, the risks.

Speaker A: Yeah, listener, uh, notice what Sally is saying, too, that your tools are going to change, your outputs will change, your org chart will change, but the way people experience your judgment and your steadiness as what keeps compounding over time and everything we've described so far is advice to give you. But I want to turn the lens around to Sally, because she spent over 35 years watching leaders confront their own patterns. And I don't believe anyone studies a subject that long without it being personal. So my next question to you, Sally, is looking back at your career. What is one realization that genuinely changed how you work and how long did it take for you to truly internalize it?

Speaker B: My work has mostly consisted of two parts. There's writing and then there's speaking, delivering workshops, um, et cetera, and coaching, which is more part of that. And I would say that with writing, what really changed. And it took me about four books in when I realized that what was important to people was not my ideas or, you know, whether my ideas were brilliant or whether I cited all these different sources, et cetera. But what mattered to people was, can I use this? Can I use this next week? Does this have value to me? Can I see? Can I figure out how in my life I, uh, can apply this? And once I saw, uh, once I was able to sort of shift that lens and see, that's what matters. That's what makes people think, you know, sleep with a bed under their pillow at night, then that is. That's where you want to be. Then you know, you're having an impact. Why are you writing if you're writing for money? You chose the wrong field because it's. It's so insecure. Uh, and you're probably a smart person who could make a lot more money another way. But we write for impact. We write because we believe that what we think can be helpful to people. So once you really focus in on that in a very granular way, I think it makes everything much easier. You can make better decisions about what to leave in and what, uh, to take out. But the other thing, in terms of speaking and giving workshops, I'd say that my biggest.

Speaker A: Aha.

Speaker B: Uh, Came when I realized that I was routinely over preparing for whatever I did, that I was going over and writing out my remarks beforehand, bulletizing them, then studying them, reading them over trying to memorize them, et cetera. And that while impressive, um, because I was good at memorizing, it wasn't what people wanted. People wanted to feel that you heard them and saw them and you were focused on them. And that the only way to really do that in a program was to be quite fluid and adaptable and realize, uh, okay, I thought they'd be interested in this, but actually this seems to be resonating with them more. Let me explore that. Turning it around, asking them, is this helpful for you? Is there some way we could be exploring this that might be more useful given the specifics of your job? I don't know the nature of every single person's job unless I'm coaching them. So that was a big thing for me. And what I decided the way I had to begin to do that was to not prep so much because then I wouldn't feel as wedded to what I was prepared to say, what I wanted to go in and say. Uh, so it made it not only much more effective, but so much less stressful and so much more fun because it really did become as these conversations with you are a dialogue rather than, you know, well, I think this and that sort of thing, and I just became aware also as I worked on that, of what a turnoff that is generally in speakers and people, uh, delivering workshops and how engaging it is, uh, when people are really good at being in the flow.

Speaker A: And that's a great insight to have. It's somewhat counterintuitive because you're starting it from a good place by being over prepared because you want to deliver value. But you're right. I know from our prior conversations with Marshall Goldsmith, he has a different approach which helped you kind of move out of that over preparation. See, now he operates. But one of the biggest ahas, uh, from your work that I've always kept with me is instead of starting with your thought patterns, to change your behavior. Start with the behavior first and that'll change your thought patterns as a result, which is counterintuitive to a lot of the unconscious bias training and the other stuff that we do currently in a lot of organizations.

Speaker B: That's exactly right. It's not only more effective, but it's easier to change your habits than you're thinking because as you change your habits, that is, for example, as I changed from being a habitual over Preparer. Um, I was able to notice new things, uh, because I wasn't stuck in that loop. So once you change your habits, you can learn new things and you can kind of try them out. And it loosens you up in a way that's really, I think, quite delightful. It's like the way children play. You know, they're not thinking, well, tomorrow I'm gonna get up and pull out the Tinker Toys or whatever. No, they're really in the flow. I think it's why we love sports. When we see team sports played at the highest possible level. Level is because we're watching people who are improvising and going with the flow. And, oh, he does this. So I'm going to do that. And she went over in that direction. So now I'm going to go here. And we love that process. It's very human. And this brings us again back to AI it's also a way of being present, because when you're focused on, you know, my remarks and I. It's my duty to convey all this information to. To my participants. When you focused on that, you're not really present for the people there. You're present for what you're trying to deliver. So, again, I think that's part of the thrill of being human, that we have this capacity to do good work, but to improvise at the same time in a way that's very satisfying and exciting and engaging.

Speaker A: Love it. And, yeah, before I move to the final question, the other one that I love from our prior conversations in your work and Marshall's work is everyone gives you a to do list. Why don't more people have a to don't list? Because as you keep moving up the ladder in any career that you have, you have to let go of or remove certain habits, and people don't realize what's holding them back.

Speaker B: That's exactly true. And as you move up, you have to be diligent about saying, okay, maybe this person can't do this as well as I could because I've been doing this, but I'm going to have to trust them and I'm going to have to help them learn rather than feel like I have to, you know, hold the reins of power on my old job simply because I know how to do it better. So that's, you know, that's part of that whole process of how we learn and how we learn from others and how we teach others that I think is at risk of being. I'm not going to say lost now, but is at risk right now.

Speaker A: So if there's one thing a listener could start this week, that would still be paying off, uh, five years, maybe ten years. Even as AI and their jobs keep changing. What would that be? Or what would a few of those things be?

Speaker B: Well, I think one of the first things would be, is not to decide that you can determine what direction the technology is going in, especially AI. We really don't know. And I see people who are trying to. I'm. I'm doing my job, but I'm also really trying to prepare myself for all the changes AI is going to make in my job. And so I got on a big learning curve here, and I'm taking courses and I'm doing this, that, or the other. Fine, that's great. We all want to be prepared, but you also want to be very sure you're not exhausting yourself by preparing for something that may have very different outcomes than we can anticipate now. So we really don't know. So I see, as I said earlier, I see a lot of people, you know, I've got to transfer my work to an AI model so I can make sure I don't lose relevance. But you may lose relevance by transferring your work to an AI model and getting too involved in it. So I think that the best thing to do is really think about what skill do I have that people seem to place the highest value on? What have I heard from people I work with, from people on my team, from bosses that I've had? What do they most appreciate about how I work and what I do and what my contributions are by how I speak and how I treat others? What is that one thing? And then find a way to get better at that, to emphasize that and to begin talking about it and test them out on other people. You know, I was thinking about articulating this skill that I have in this way. What do you think of this? Give me some feedback. How does that sound? I don't want to sound all about me, but I want to be very clear about what I believe my value is here and start testing that in the marketplace and then take it out there and see what response you get.

Speaker A: Great advice, Sally. Thank you so much for being a part of this series. Um, give our listeners, um, some insight into where they can find you and your books.

Speaker B: Certainly, I'm easy to find. Uh, you can go to Sally Helgeson.com, my website. My website has a contact button there where you can email me. And my books are pretty much available everywhere, all the major distributors and Amazon, um, Barnes and Noble. All the major sites carry them.

Speaker A: Thank you. Sally There's a powerful thread running through this conversation. The future does not belong to the people who simply work the hardest or move the fastest or even generate the most output. It belongs to the leaders who know how to make people feel valued. The leaders who can build belonging, recognize contribution, develop others, and create conditions where people can do meaningful work together. Sally also reminds us that AI reshapes the work around us, but we have to be careful not to let it outsource the very experiences that build our judgment, confidence, relationships and expertise. The tools will change, outputs will change. But the ability to listen, adapt and see the value in others and articulate that value that you bring, Those are the capabilities that will continue to compound. Thank you for listening. Until next time, Remember, it's not what you know, but what you do consistently that makes a difference. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Good Leadership Podcast. Remember, great ideas only matter when they change what you do next. So choose one insight from today's conversation and put it into practice this week. If this episode was valuable, please follow the show and share it with someone who would benefit. And until next time, remember, the edge belongs to those who outlearned what worked yesterday, who can out think what's coming next so that they can outperform when it counts.