The Superhero Leader Trap: Why Doing More Can Make Your Team Do Less

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Mason Duke of Tech Show. And before we jump in, this episode is brought to you by workforce alchemy.com place where business owners and executives go to uncover and address profit leaks hidden in their everyday operations. Most leaders I talk to have tried everything to get more out of their teams, and sometimes things still don't climb it. My guest today figured out why, and she learned it jumping out of airplanes. Tanya Chavez is a former Air Force jump master, the executive coach and creator of the Jump Experience. Tanya, welcome.

Speaker A: Thank you for having me. Mason.

Speaker B: So I know you work with a lot of business owners and CEOs. What's the most common frustration that you hear from them about their teams?

Speaker A: You kind of led us right to it. There is this mentality that a lot of people that I work with come into, and it may sound familiar, where they come in, do everything, save the day, and then they're exhausted and wonder why their team is not stepping up and taking control more. And so, uh, it's the superhero leader, as I like to call it. The ones that walk in, they try to save the day, and that's how they're rewarded. But so often they end up stressed out, burnt out, and they're trying to figure out, how do I get the team to carry the load without and let go of control? So that tends to be the biggest archetype that I work with.

Speaker B: So what do you think it really costs a business when their people are holding back?

Speaker A: Yeah. So I don't know if you've ever felt this. I sure have. Where you're sitting in this meeting, and you get like, you have an idea, you have something you want to contribute, you have information that could change the trajectory of the meeting. But instead, you get, like, this pit in your stomach, and you start to swallow it down, and you're like, you know what? Forget it. I'm not gonna say anything. You just stay silent, and then you just. Your ideas go unheard. Right. So there's, uh. If you think about all the people that are sitting around the conference table that are not sharing those ideas because they're scared to bring things up, they don't know what's gonna happen when they do. That's a lot of potential, a lot of ideas that's just kind of left on the table. And so the researchers that I love to bring up, I don't know if you've heard of Karen, uh, what's her name? Karen Hurt and David Dye. So they interviewed or they asked thousands of adults or thousands of employees one question. They were like, how do you have an idea that you haven't shared with your boss? And about half of them said yes. So you have half of these like fully capable, employed adults walking around with that same sort of pit in their stomach. And for some reason they're not able to articulate their ideas or not able to speak up in these meetings because they don't feel like they can. Right. They have this superhero leader coming in and saving the day. So you think about the number of people and the number of ideas that are going unsaid. You're just missing out on bringing people into the fold, building trust, building camaraderie so that you're actually building something together.

Speaker B: Well, it's pure opportunity cost. I mean, it, it's, it's expensive. And the other thing is, even if companies are open to suggestions, a lot of them don't think anything of going and spending a fortune on consultants when the answers are right under their noses. If they would just ask questions and give up. Create an environment where people felt safe talking.

Speaker A: Yes. Oh my gosh, that's so true. Like, think about all the consultants that you bring in when the. And I think about, like, ideo. I don't know if you're familiar with that company, but they bring in purposely lots of different fields to solve a problem. So like, if they're trying to tackle a problem for a tech company, they're bringing in a teacher, they're bringing somebody from defense, they're bringing somebody from. Maybe they are bringing someone in from tech with that deep expertise, but to purposely bring out all these different perspectives and people bring their full selves in so they can get like a, a real solution out of this.

Speaker B: So I don't know about you, but to me it seems like leaders, they've tried everything, you know, better culture, better communication, retreats, ax throwing, escape rooms, everything. In your opinion, how come it doesn't always stick?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So if you think about these events, right, so often they're kind of taking this like, surface level problem or they're trying to fix it at a surface level. They're like, if we do this fun thing, we will. And there's nothing wrong with that. Uh, we will build trust, we'll bring. Build camaraderie. That is still true. But if you don't get to the root and you don't fix the psychological safety, then that's the big missing piece. We try to like, put all these band aids on it, but if there's not that safety, to be able to bring up these Ideas to be able to put, like, trust in each other, then you're not. It's just motivational instead of, like, transformational. So you can't, like. Yeah. So these events are not, like, getting people out of their natural response. Right. If their nervous system is saying, I can't bring up this idea, it's not going to get better by taking an ax throwing. Right. So it's, it's, it's not that the content is wrong, it's just we're not fixing the root cause.

Speaker B: What's usually the gap between what a team leader imagined and what they. When they started and what they find out that they actually have.

Speaker A: Yeah. So this is a question I ask all the time. And I'm curious if, if this brings up anything, like, throughout your time you're sitting in, like, before you're a leader, like, you're this individual contributor. Maybe you're in college and you start to think about, well, what kind of leader do I want to be? Most people aren't sitting there thinking, uh, I just want to save the day all the time. I want to, like, react. I want to check the boxes. I want to be stressed out. That's not what they're thinking. They're thinking, I want to be the person who steps into a room. I can diffuse conflict. I can be the calm in the storm, and I'm the one really guiding the ship. I can slow things down. I can get people on board. And for most leaders, that's what they walk in wanting. They want to be the inspiration. But so often they get caught in that spiral of, I have to do it all. I can't let go. I need to have this control. Which is totally understandable because that's what maybe helped you as an individual contributor. Then you start to rise and you're like, well, how do I bring all these other people along? But you're stuck in this spiral. There's more responsibility on you, more pressure on you. And so now you are starting to get this. I'll use the word dysregulated. You're starting to get dysregulated. And your team can sense that you're from. You're not the, uh, you're not changing the temperature at the table. You're just adding to the chaos. Just to kind of bring in this quick story real quick. There was a VP I worked with, and everyone called him the Tasmanian Devil because he would run in, stir up the pot, like, just throw his ideas all over the place, let his, like, energy take over, and people would Start spinning out of control and they would start to confuse movement with momentum. And so if that leader comes in with that kind of energy, it's just going to multiply throughout. So the gap I usually see is that the leader hasn't shifted to being grounded enough. Being the calm, setting the example so they can set the right conditions for everybody else to step up and put themselves out there, create that safety and allow them to try new things while they're still being that safety net for them.

Speaker B: You know, you and I both share a background in the military. I was army, um, but I remember back in ROTC when I was a cadet. And when you're a cadet, it's kind of for those who are having military, it's kind of no man's land because you're not an enlisted person because you're a future officer. So the enlisted people don't really want to hang out with you too much because you're a future officer. The officers really don't want to hang out with you too much because you're not an officer yet and you have really no authority at all. But I use that time to really interact with people. And I paid attention to what the best officer did and how the enlisted people responded to me. I also paid attention to what the worst ones did and how the enlisted people responded to them. Because I got to hang out in the middle. I saw cause and effect on a real time basis. And it wasn't something I read in a book, is something I experienced firsthand and it really stuck with me.

Speaker A: So what's, um, so what's your take

Speaker B: on, um, what's going on with people who are playing it safe?

Speaker A: Yeah. So so often we, first of all, we think of playing it safe as like. I think the common thing to say is like, well, I'm not raising my hand or I'm not taking these risks. But sometimes that word gets a little bit confused. Like we, we trick ourselves into playing it safe and we have these very reasonable reasons as to why. Right. So you mentioned the military. When I think about playing it safe, you'd be like, well, I'm not going to join the parachute team, which is a huge piece of my origin story. But the other people who play it safe, like if I go back to that superhero leader, I remember the first group I ever took through the wind tunnel. This guy was like, I just come in and save the day. It's like, I cannot let go and my team doesn't step up. That was his way of playing it safe because it's more comfortable to do it himself, to. To step in, fix things the way that he wants to fix it, and just do it himself. Right? And I think a lot of entrepreneurs, founders, have the same feeling where it's like, just. And even leaders in corporate, they are so used to just stepping in and fixing it. That's what they get rewarded for, and that is safe for them. What feels scary is letting go. And so they. They might not even. First of all, they might not even realize that's how they're playing it safe. They don't realize that that's an actual fear. But if you could start to recognize, like, man, I notice that I am scared of letting go. If I am scared of, like, if you can start to recognize those signals and you can start to move through it, then you can start to create the, uh, space and the conditions for people to actually step in and show up. Right? Like, this leader, he was like, I don't know if my team's lazy. I don't know if they're not motivated. I don't. And it's usually not them. It's usually not the problem. It's usually the conditions that are keeping them playing safe.

Speaker B: So you've jumped out of airplanes and somehow you found that less scary than certain things that were. How does that happen?

Speaker A: Yeah. So if I go back to the Air Force Academy, I was so excited that I got in. I was like, man, I'm going to, like, it's going to be life changing. But I was an extremely shy kid, so going there, like, it didn't change that, right? So I show up and they have this, these. All these opportunities to jump in and to lead and to practice. So that way, when you get out into the real world, you're ready to go. Right? And for those who don't know anything about military academies, their whole mission is to build leaders with character. Like, there's. That's it, right? We're not specialists. It's. It's all about training leaders. And I remember being asked to try for squadron commander to take on some leadership role. And every single time, I would say no. And I would tell myself. The story I would tell myself was, I will lead when it matters. I mean, I'm just a cadet right now, right? Like you said, it's this weird romance land, right? So, like, I'm in college. Let's, uh, have some fun with it. So the job I found was the MWR officer, right? Morale, welfare, and recreation. So basically what I'm doing is planning the parties. I'm Planning the tailgates. I'm not actually running a squadron. I'm not giving briefings. It is so safe behind that group for me. And so I told myself, I was like, well, this is just fun, right? Like that. That's why I'm doing this. But in reality. And same thing with the parachute team. So just to kind of tie that together. So it started out with the burgers, then. Then I try out for this parachute team. And the best part about it is everybody thinks that I'm being brave. Like, you're jumping out of airplanes. You're doing the scary thing, so you must be brave. And it's considered, like, an elite team. So, like, no one questions me anymore why I'm turning down these roles. But if I was being really honest with myself, it wasn't me being, like, lazy or unambig. Unambitious. I was just scared, right? Like, I was scared of the critiques I would get. I was scared of having all the eyes on me being in a leadership position. Right. Nobody gets, like. Like, you get way more criticism than you get praise when you're in these types of roles, right? So it was terrifying. And it was, like, the kind of scare that you, like, can't talk yourself out of. It's, like, in your bones. Like, I am terrified, and I just can't. I can't move. So to me, jumping out of an airplane felt so much safer than being in a leadership position. Yes. Yes.

Speaker B: I. I've only got five times then. I was just. I went to Airborne School. 88, something like that. Maybe 89. 89. 89. Anyway, I. The first jump was a total adrenaline rush for me. Second one, I was a little nervous because I go, okay, this is real.

Speaker A: You know?

Speaker B: Now I know. First one was like, I was so amped up and. And ready for it. And there were. There was one of the gals that was in my squad in basic that summer that was afraid of heights, and she did it so that she could help overcome her fear heights. So no matter how I felt, I was like, it could be worse. I could be her. Like. Like, I saw someone who was way worse than me. I'm like, okay, I. I'm all right. This isn't so bad. But, uh, I. I remember her eyes were the size of cue balls. She was so nervous going out of there, and I felt empathy for her and super, super great cadet. Like, great cadet. But. And I appreciate that she was doing that to overcome her fear, and she did do it. But. But I. To see the big whites in her eyes and giant sized cue balls. Like yeah. But she did it anyway. And much respect to her. And I've never forgotten the look across the main and see it seeing how she looked. And I felt a lot better after seeing that.

Speaker A: But oh my gosh, I hear you. Because I, even 20 plus years later, I can still see certain faces. Yeah, it's in, it's ingrained in you.

Speaker B: Well, and this, you will appreciate this. I don't know if those listening would, but the uh, when we went through, I remember very clearly the instructors told us like if you stall in the door, they said, we're gonna give you the 4, 5, 9 injection. Everyone's like, what's the 4, 5, 9 injection, Sergeant? They're like, Take four doctors, five hours to get my size 9 boot out of your rear end. And we all thought that was funny. But I saw a guy in front of me stall in the door and the jump master grabbed the, the wire and uh, wound up his foot. And literally as that foot was extending, ready to get that guy's hit that guy's bottom. That guy jumped at the last second. And it, there wasn't connection. I honestly think the sergeant was a little disappointed that he didn't get the connection because they probably were looking forward to it. But I remember watching that, hearing about it and watching it just. This conversation is bringing back some memories for me that I haven't thought about in a very long time. But I remember them clearly.

Speaker A: Yes, yes.

Speaker B: What does, what does fear look like in a high performing workplace? Even if it doesn't look like it to a casual observer, in your opinion?

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so if I take uh, it to a very literal metaphor to start with, kind of like what you said about, you know, you have these visceral memories, right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: At the Air Force Academy, what makes it super unique is it's the only place in the world where your first skydive is a hundred percent solo. So you're, you're jumping out, you're free falling for 10 seconds and then you're pulling your own parachute and nobody is there to help you with this. And we do that after only three days of ground training. So the amount of trust and repetition and muscle memory we have to build into these folks really quickly is like especially looking back, is astonishing to me. And so I remember going up into the, into the airplane, particularly with my first jump, I, everyone was just dead silent. Right. Like they're scared. Even if they're excited, there's still this like trepidation there. And I remember Thinking I want to be the first person to jump out of this airplane because I don't want to watch anyone else go. I don't want to, I don't want to get the fear, like in my head. So of course I'm like in the middle. And I remember like sitting on the bench and watching my classmates just like fall away from the airplane. And all I can think is there is literally no way my body will let go of this airplane. Like, I don't care how much I want it. Your body doesn't want to like let go at 4,500ft. It's just not a natural response. And so it's very real. Fight or flight, right? And I think one thing that makes us unique is when you think about jumping out of an airplane, most people think of just like diving out, right? Like, it's almost like you're bypassing the fear and you could just go straight to the adrenaline rush. In our case, you have a whole sequence you have to go through. So you, the jet master tells you to stand in the door and then you go through your sequence. You're like, right hand, right foot, left hand, left foot, check in. And so we might not be shoving, uh, a size 9 boot in people, but if they are not hanging out the door all the way, we quite literally take their hips and shove them out of the aircraft. So they're not letting go yet. They're hanging out by just like a thread, like barely holding onto the door. Their feet are in and their whole body is at the. And then we tell them to go. And then they say, prop up, down and then let go. So they're sitting in this discomfort. And part of the reason why we do this is most of these guys are going to go off to be pilots. Like, I think maybe 0.001% will jump into combat, but we don't have them earn their jump wings in order to jump into combat. We have them earn their jump wings so they know how to respond when they want to freeze, when they want to run. They know how their body responds and they know how to move through it. So all that to say is when you think about these high performing workplaces, every person has a door. Every single person has that edge that makes them feel like they're about to go into free fall. And most people are staying on the plane. They're not raising their hand, they're not giving the pitch, they're not, uh, leading a project that they could. Right. They're just in there and they're kind of trapped on this airplane. But if we can create the right conditions, if we can start to recognize that what their door is, what their growth edge is, you could start to help them actually take that jump. And the key here is I've learned this especially over like my corporate career and especially becoming a mom is you have to separate the story from the signal. So the skydiving thing is like a very clear analogy. You recognize like that is scary. I'm probably gonna, my heart's probably gonna be pounding, I'm probably gonna be sweating, right. There's like things that you know are gonna happen, right. But what gets sneaky in a high perform places, you will still get those signals but you're going to ignore them. So like let's say like you hear that every time you hear Ms. Team's ringtone, you get that pounding heart. You're like, oh gosh, not another call. Right. You're not creating. It feels like freefall for you because you're constantly in these back, back to back meetings or your email is like piled up and you start to get that like tight chest and you're starting to feel stressed. You tell yourself, who cares? It's just emails, I gotta push through. Or you tell yourself it's just another meeting, I just gotta push through. And most of us are not recognizing those things as like, as free falls. As like this is something that I, I need to create some space with so that I can actually take the jump. Like I have the space to actually take the jump. So like whether it's a real cliff or not, whether the story is something big like pitching to investors or something that feels small, like you have too many emails, all of those things put us into fight or flight. And most of us are operating out of that place all the time and we don't even realize it. So you've got to separate the story from the signals. And I think most of us in a modern workplace are ignoring the signals.

Speaker B: You know it. And my experience was very different than yours because I went through three weeks of airborne school and it was. And I had a boss, uh, that I worked for early in my career who always told me, do the thing you fear. And the death of fear is certain.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that repetition was the mother of skill. And with competence comes confidence. And really the way airborne school was set up, we did a week of learning how to fall without breaking our neck in the sand. Sand pits. And then week two was tower week where they started putting us up on trainers. And after we dropped us with like a 250 foot power or something like that. And then week three was jumping. By the time I actually went, it felt like I'd been doing it a long time because everything we had drilled, drilled, drilled, and everything was familiar. It's like step by step by step by step. And then by the time we got to one week, it was just put it all together and they didn't really have to because we just executed what exactly what we've been practicing. Now. It wasn't lost to me when I got on the plane that I'm not landing. Yes, yes, that was a, that was an aha moment for me. Like, yeah, we're not landing, we're going up and I'm not coming down in this plane. And that was a, uh, moment of reality for me, which again, but I had confidence because I had competence, I knew what I was doing. So for a lot of companies that put people in those situations, I think what you're saying is very valuable. But for those listening, it doesn't hurt to, to invest extra in training and developing these people and giving them the competence so that they can be confident so they don't freeze in the door.

Speaker A: Yes. Yes. No, I totally agree. Yes. So it's like you're creating these conditions so that people can actually jump. They can actually do the big thing. Yes. So whether. And for the individual.

Speaker B: You mentioned the word elite because you were doing it in three days. So that takes a special breed of cat who can do this in three days where the rest of us had three weeks. I get that. So. But there's a lesson there too, is what if you aren't. You've got who you've got. And maybe they aren't all elite people, they're all good contributors that, uh, could be great contributors. And elite is within reason, but it's not there yet. Well, good can become great, and great can become elite with enough effort and training and support.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you're running a department or running a company. The you get to decide where you are. Do you have a few elite people that you can push very quickly and get things up to speed, and in your case, a small group of people that can get trained and execute this in three days versus a large group of people if they follow process and a system can all get through it in three weeks. But the point is, is in either case, you can get people out the door.

Speaker A: You're right. And I think you highlighted something, uh, really important is like the systems that you have in place have to match where that person is at yes. Right. So like, yes. And so often I see, particularly out of the military, it's like the mentality is just throw them in the fire, your trial by fire, sink or swim. And I get it, sometimes there's a time or place for that. But if you don't teach people how to deal with pressure, how to handle fear, how to, if you don't give them the opportunity to build that capacity, you are missing out on so much. You're going to be chasing a players when you could be building a players. You. It's just there's so many times where

Speaker B: uh, you're going have falling in the door, getting the four or five knock and then managers are mean. No, no, they've got a job and they're saving the rest of the plane by getting that person out the door. So yeah, I, yeah, this is really um, a conversation that's bringing back a lot of memory for me.

Speaker A: Okay. So you know, we talked about the door and how there's this like pushing past the fear, being able to do the hard thing and proving that to yourself time and time again. But so often what happens is we stay in that free fall forever. Like we are either constantly chasing it or we're letting like the little things keep us in free fall. Like I mentioned earlier, the hundred unread emails, the uh, constant chirping of your phone, the back to back meetings, we are either constantly in free fall by those types of little things or by chasing these big, big things. But what you really need to do, just like a skydiver, right. They are not in free fall forever. It's not possible. You have to pull your parachute. So if I kind of like take a step back and put this in like more biological terms, I think of the free fall as like that's your sympathetic nervous system online, your fight or flight, that's you operating at this stress state, which is important. That's where you grow, that's where you learn. So I don't want to take that away. I'm not suggesting that you don't jump right, but you have to parachute into the parasympathetic. So now you're slowing things down and this is where you can actually rest, process, digest the free fall. Otherwise you're just spinning. And you're the Tasmanian devil leader that I mentioned before. So in this case it's do you have the right tools in place to slow yourself down so you can raise your baseline so you can handle stress better when it hits? And then your reserve parachute, when you find yourself in freefall unexpectedly. How do you pull yourself out of it? And I bring these up cuz I think a lot of people know this logically they just don't have a practice around it. So the example I love to use is like I had a client that I was working with and she was so stressed out, she wasn't the leader she wanted to be. She literally said that to me, like what we talked about earlier. She's like, I used to have these like coffees with my team and we had all these like inspirations things that would come out of those. And she was like, but the demands are just too much. I can't get any breathing room. How am I? And you could just hear it in her. Her like shoulders are up here, she's breathing fast, she's clearly in free fall. And so when we talked about finding space, most people think I can never find space because I need a 19 step morning routine. I need to be able to go on a 40 minute walk. And those things are great. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have them, but maybe you don't start there. Maybe it's for her. In her case, she realized that meetings, even if they said they were going to end early, would always go to the top of the hour or the half hour but they never, never started early. So she started scheduling all her meetings for five minutes after the hour or five minutes after the 30, 30 minute. So she found like a very practical way to just wedge space into her schedule so she had a minute to come down and then she could like approach everything from a much more grounded space and um, start to. So that was her par, that's her practice to help raise her baseline. She's also the same person who, if I think about the reserve parachute, like what do you need? What are the tools you need in the moment? She would say that if she found herself in a free fall she would start taking deep breaths but that would tip her into hyperventilation. So she was like I, I can't do that. Like it just makes things worse. So we tried different tools for her. We were uh, we tried like touch where you're really like rubbing the, your fingertips so lightly that you can feel like your fingerprint. Can you use something like that to calm yourself down and get you out of your body? So all that to say there are so many different tools that you could be packing into your parachute, but they have to work for you. And most of us don't take the time to collect the data to recognize when we're in free fall and then collect the data to see what helps us pull our parachute. And so that is really the work with leaders that I find so helpful is like, let's get intentional about what puts you in free fall, how do you move out of it, and, and what helps you recover.

Speaker B: So, uh, what do you do with someone who clearly has more in them?

Speaker A: So usually I, the first thing is like, really, you gotta get curious because you know that there is everybody, nobody goes to work saying, like, I don't want to do a good job, I want to be mediocre at my job. If they are saying that it's likely fear, it's likely they're scared to be seen, they're scared to step forward. So your job is really, how do I create these conditions? Right, but before you can even create the conditions, the environment, we could talk about that all day long. What do you have on your walls? What does your office look like? What does, what procedures do, do you have in place? Right? You talked about muscle memory, what training do you have? All that stuff matters. But it only matters if the foundation is in place first. And that's you, because at the end of the day, you are the one executing these procedures. You're the one having them go through this stuff. So if you are coming in dysregulated Tasmanian devil, they're going to read you and the room as not safe. Even if they can't articulate that, they're going to read it as it is not safe to speak up. There's too much stress here. So your job is to come in grounded and you have to view. We talked about recovery on this last one and not burning out if you don't make that part of it. I mean, in my opinion, it should be part of the job description. Like a regulated nervous system is part of the job description because you are being paid the big bucks or you are starting this business because of your clear vision and your ability to move through uncertainty. And that only comes when you are grounded and clear. So that is the first step is like, can you build a practice for yourself? So you are showing up and setting the temperature for everyone else.

Speaker B: What does it take to build a culture where people aren't?

Speaker A: Uh, I ran, uh, a leadership team through a workshop around this, like not too long ago, and we were talking about the difference between responding and reacting, which I think a lot of people have heard, right? They've are familiar with the Viktor Frankl quote, between stimulus and response. There is a space, and in that space lies your power so we talked so much about noticing the stimulus not just for yourself, but for your team. Like when do you see them in fight or flight? So that way before you or they react, you create space. So what does that look like for them or for, for your team in this case? Uh, the CEO, she was like, oh my gosh. I just realized that we are operating in this really like high intense environment and we think we have to match that intensity. So it's like almost like we think that stress and like amped up ness is going to make is appropriate for the mission. So there's a lot of like pressure on them. But she was like, none of us think clearly when we do that. So they started to create language and tools to create more space once they noticed that the stimulus is there, once they notice their um, sympathetic nervous system having like a procedure. Just like you would have a procedure to run a machine on the plant floor having a procedure in place as to how do we create space. And once you do that, people, once they're grounded and calm and they're not in fight or flight, then they're willing to step forward. Courage just comes out naturally when you have these conditions already in place. Because genuinely believe courage is innate and we like take it away from like, uh, it gets like beaten out of us as we grow up because we become scared to fail. We become scared about what we're going to look like. We don't want to get criticized. All those things take our courage away. But if we can put that stuff back in place, then things will just start to come out naturally if people want it.

Speaker B: First of all, thank you for your time today. People want more about you and what you do and how you help teams develop. What's the best ways for them to connect, learn more.

Speaker A: Yeah, so I am. My handle is the same everywhere. It's Tanya Ann Chavez and with an E on LinkedIn as well as Instagram. But the best way to get in touch with me is just shoot me an email at tanya, tanya and chavez.com and I would love to chat about what this could look like for your team. Uh, we are very like, I tend to customize everything to basically what you need, uh, whether it's a workshop or bringing people into the wind tunnel. I love to make things extremely experiential because there's a reason that skydiving is still the foundation of my leadership practice even 20 plus years later. My goal is to get people out of their heads and into their bodies and really start to feel how they can start to make these changes.

Speaker B: Awesome. It's been a pleasure having you.