#57: From Pressure to Performance: How Great Leaders Find Their Mojo and Flow, with Ben Crowe

Speaker A: The reason chapter one of the book is dedicated to what we call the dreaded E word. Expectations is. In my opinion, it's the most dangerous word in the world today. And it's not so much the word, it's how we define it. I know Shakespeare called expectations the root of all heartache. But where expectations used to mean things we can control 100%, and pressure is defined as things we can't control, but we still want to control them.

Speaker B: Hi, I'm Nick Hague, and welcome to the World's Greatest Business Thinkers Podcast. Today we're exploring a form of competitive, uh, advantage that you won't find in any traditional business textbook. It's not about strategy, technology, or market disruption. It's about the inner game, the mindset that determines whether an individual, a leader, a team, or an entire organization thrives under pressure or shatters. My guest today is a man who's become the secret weapon of some of the world's most notable achievers. He's a mindset coach and mentor who works not from a place of fixing problems, but of unlocking human potential. He guided tennis champion Ash Barty not just to Grand Slam victories, but to a profound sense of purpose and a legendary retirement. At her peak, he helps CEOs and elite athletes alike navigate the invisible pressures of performance and identity. His new book is titled where the Light Gets in. And it argues that, uh, our greatest strengths are often found in our perceived cracks, our, uh, vulnerabilities, our failures, our moments of doubt. In a world obsessed with flawless execution and unwavering confidence, he makes a compelling case for emotional courage and as the ultimate driver of sustainable success. Welcome to the World's Greatest Business Thinkers podcast, Ben.

Speaker A: Thank you, Nick. Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: Well, so much to cover today. Uh, before we, we dive into your book and talk in detail about the profound mindset work that you do today, I want to start where maybe a lot of listeners might find a point of connection. And, uh, that's in. In the corporate world, you had what many would see as a, as a dream role at the peak of Nike's power? Uh, so I'd like to start there because you, you were immersed in this culture that celebrated relentless achievement, competitive fire, and winning. How did that environment at night shape your early understanding of performance and success?

Speaker A: Yeah, great first question, Nick. I, um, think not just Nike, but I think the best organizations or teams in the world that kind of share three qualities. Whether you're the All Blacks or the Boston Celtics or Nike, um, they're all purpose driven and values based and they're performance focused. Um, and Nike, when you're purpose driven, you just play a different game, like an infinite game, like there's no finish line. Which was actually one of Nike's slogans that they created after Just Do It. The second most popular slogan was There is no finish line, which I thought was kind of interesting. Um, Nike's purpose, by the way, was to bring innovation and inspiration to every athlete in the world. And the asterisk was if you've got a body, you're an athlete, right? Uh, because you could be a student athlete, you could be a mum or dad wanting to lose weight, or you could be a professional athlete and that innovate through product development and that inspire through storytelling. And that's what Nike's competitive advantage was against the Germans, as we used to call, you know, Adidas and, and Puma was very much a storytelling platform. And I probably learned early on that. In fact, I asked Phil Knight a few years ago, the founder of Nike. I said, was Nike's purpose your purpose, your personal purpose? And he said, yes. Um, and I thought that was really interesting. But the definition of purpose, Nick, is to create an environment to help others realize their potential. And when everyone is kind of rowing the same way, like creating an environment, you know, to help someone else realize their potential, it creates this extraordinary sense of team and teamwork and camaraderie and you lose like ego and fear, right? Because it's not about you. Everyone kind of knows what their role is in, in that organization. So that was Nike's purpose in terms of, um, their values. Um, they had values around teamwork, obviously, because Phil from his running days knew that if you hunt in packs, like if you run in a group, you actually run faster. Um, so teamwork became very powerful part of Nike's DNA, as was innovation, as was, um, the desire to compete. Back when Nike first started in the early 1970s, uh, Phil created a set of maxims which are kind of these rules, these philosophies, these mantras. And a lot of it was very much sports related, like we're always on the offense, like all the time. Yeah. And this is much about battle as it is about business. And the business is about change. Right. And so once you kind of understood these maxims and these, I guess, these rules of engagement, um, that kind of created the, the philosophy or the work ethic at Nike. It was also very anti establishment, very rebellious. And Nike would deliberately sign athletes, whether it's Steve Prefontaine or, or John McEnroe Nastasi you know, later on in life it was, you know, Andre Agassi in tennis and, you know, Charles Barclay in basketball that had this very much kind of screw the country club, you know, break the rules, be disruptive, um, but still do the right thing. And I think for me personally, understanding that and learning that probably shaped my philosophy of life as well. Um, and when you have that philosophy that's purpose driven, creating environment to help others, you move from I to we. And I think, in my opinion, the number one mistake that most leaders make around the world is they think leadership is about them, that they have to have all the answers and, and everyone's looking for them to have the answers, which is fundamentally flawed. When you're technically trained and you join the corporate world, whether you're a marketer or a banker or a consultant, yes, it's about you.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And if you work hard, um, you get promoted, you get paid more. But I think when you become a leader, there's got to be this metaphorical stake in the ground that from this moment on, it's not about me. Yeah. It's about helping them, serving them, like creating an environment to be interested, not interesting. And if you have a whole organization, as I mentioned, at Nike, you have this kind of sense of, I don't know, humble and hungry. And I think the opposite of humble and hungry is entitled and complacent. And you see that a lot in, in businesses today where if you don't have this incredible desire to compete. Yeah, it's about the battle. And I think Nike struggled a bit as they got older and got successful, if you like, that got distracted from that. You know, Phil was getting quite frustrated. I remember in the early 90s of hiring people that were intellectually really smart, but intrinsically just didn't have that incredible desire to compete, have fun and play. And I think, uh, you needed both, obviously, but getting that balance right was quite difficult. Ah. Ah. At, uh, different stages of Nike's journey

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Speaker A: Yeah, very much so I think um, for athletes in particular, losing sight of their intrinsic motivations and why they fell in love with sport in the first place and watching them get distracted by extrinsic motivations and typically the big five is money, fame, status, recognition and materialism. I think when my dad passed away when I was a teenager, I had this itch that I couldn't scratch. Just trying to make sense of the world and how some people could navigate it really well and they were comfortable in their own skin, um, putting their pants on one leg at a time and, and others were less comfortable and anxiety or social anxiety and so forth. And when I joined Nike, that itch got even worse watching these very famous athletes get so distracted by these extrinsic motivations and that messiah mentality and they lost sight of, as I said, the intrinsic reasons they fell in love. And the fall, when you fall from that, you know, you believe that you're the Persona rather than the person, you lose sight of that authenticity. The fall's huge, has been very well publicized whether it's, you know, Tiger woods or Lance Armstrong. And I noticed at Nike that athletes that went the other way, that went internal, not external. And Andre Agassi is a very good case study. Um, Ashbadi is a very good case study. They were able to separate what they did from who they were, you know, the human being versus the human doing. And so their identity became less about what they did and more about their core values and the incredible Thing when you do that is you actually redefine success. Right? Uh, there's kind of two ways to measure success. One is externally with the external scoreboard, but you can't control that. And a better way to measure success is internally with this internal scorecard by connecting with our intrinsic motivations, especially around play and purpose and potential. And you can start to redefine success that way so you don't have to wait to be successful in the future. You can actually be successful in the present moment. Um, and I define success, by the way, as the alignment between what you truly value and how you live your life. So, Nick, if you value creativity or caring about others or being part of a team or getting out of your comfort zone and being vulnerable and you're showing up that way, then that's technically, you know, that's technically you're living a successful life. But if you think success is in this future state, right, you're putting yourself in this gap between where you are today and where you want to be in the future. And that gap constantly creates this cortisol, you know, this pressure, this expectation. It's the classic I don't know when then syndrome. Like when I get that promotion, then I'll be successful, or when I'm, when I get that relationship, when I get married, then I'll be loved or validated and just never works. So we get athletes, um, or get anyone in the corporate world now to redefine success. And rather than saying, I, uh, know I'll be successful when, you know, I get that promotion, I make that million dollars or whatever, we get them to say, I know I'm being successful when, because then you can redefine success. I know I'm being successful when, I don't know, I get seven hours sleep or I get out of my comfort zone at work, or I have a crucial conversation with a colleague, or I have a beautiful sunrise and you just start to become more self determined. And it's really powerful when you do that. I guess my curiosity was sparked at Nike about athletes that went internal to focus on things they could control rather than external and getting distracted by these extrinsic motivations.

Speaker B: Andre Agassi's books on the shelf behind me open, and I've referenced it before in a couple of other podcasts. Love, love Andre, love his story. Love how, you know, he, he got to number one, you know, was winning slams and just felt empty. And he, like you say, it was all it was focused on. Well, he was, he was doing it for his dad. A lot of the time was he. But it was that extrinsic part as opposed to intrinsic. And how he then fell to one, uh, hundred forty in the world and, and then found his mojo and, uh, and, uh, and climbed, climb back again. And I, I think, you know, I, I get that too.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: I think when I was running my agency, uh, you know, sometimes I struggled with it. You know, we were successful, we were growing, but did sometimes wonder, you know, is this, is this it, you know, in, in the sense and what, uh, am I doing this for? And, and now I look back and see maybe I was struggling a bit with a crisis, silent crisis of meaning and, you know, my, my inner needs of wanting to make a difference to the world. What wouldn't be suffice? So I'm definitely in a happier place now that I'm doing this podcast. Uh, and, you know, I'm a chair of a local children's cancer charity as well. And, you know, you do need to find that inner peace first, don't you, before then, you know, setting those goals and, uh, aligning around those totally.

Speaker A: And Andre was probably the first athlete that I observed. That's why I wanted him on the front cover of my, of my book, Nick, because for me, he was the first athlete who truly understood the power of embracing vulnerability as a strength rather than a weakness. And once he got to number one in the world, as he writes in the book, he felt nothing. And he suddenly, his whole life, he want, you know, he's playing tennis, he gets to number one, he's got all this money and all these fame, but he didn't feel anything. And then, you know, through that, it's hard to live a lie, as he says in the book. And his life started to spiral out of control and, you know, his relationships either with, you know, with his wife, um, or his dad, um, and he blew out, obviously, to 141 in the world. But for me, Andre's story is so beautiful in terms of having the courage to take off his mask and take off his armor and find out who he was and go on that journey. But it's also a great story about how your greatest growth comes from your darkest times. Yeah. And your greatest learnings in life will always come from your most difficult times because it unlocks that, that humility and that curiosity. And, you know, when he was in that hotel room and, you know, he just lost to a, you know, a kid who'd ranked 400 in the world and, you know, he thought his coach was going to Leave him. He then had that epiphany that, you know, what if I just live my life? And he kind of was able to identify with his version of shame, that feeling of not being smart enough or intelligent enough, and then realize, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to go and find who I am and work out what I want. But I was able to identify the not enoughness stories that were holding him back, you know, believing I'm not, I'm not smart enough or intelligent enough or loved enough, um, but also finding his purpose as well, you know, around education and setting up that incredible billion dollar foundation, all those charter schools across North America to help other kids who are rebelling against education that feel that they weren't smart enough as well. So he was successful as a tennis player, but he became so fulfilled as a human being because he was able to find a greater purpose beyond himself, which is quite unique in a very individual sport like tennis. And he was the first tennis player to say we, not I. He'd always speak about the we and the team. And I think Ash Barty was very similar in terms of the way she always found a sense of purpose and meaning by, you know, being part of a team. And I think similar what you just said, Nick, in terms of your career pivot and how much joy and meaning and fulfillment you're getting out of the various roles that you've got now, you know, from the podcast to the, to the charities and so forth. I think, yeah, whatever we do from a corporate lens, extrinsically, I think if front and center, ah, we've always got what does play look like for us. And play is not table tennis, by the way. It's creativity and curiosity and experimentation and imagination. Everything we do at work is play. But unfortunately, today, um, we're not in the play state, we're in the fear state. Because the opposite of play isn't work, it's fear. So how we get back into the play state? The second most important intrinsic motivation is purpose. As in the play that you do has a purpose, what we do has a reason, and that reason really matters. And purpose isn't saving the world, by the way, uh, you can work in a call center and have an incredible sense of purpose in terms of understanding your role and the impact you're having on the greater good of the organization. And the third intrinsic motivation is potential. And that's about learning and growing and tapping into possibility and the opportunity to get out of your comfort zone to realize your potential. And I think if you are constantly thinking about those three intrinsic motivations. More often than not, you're in your sweet spot. Because to get into the flow state is very similar to connecting with those three intrinsic motivations to get into flow for an athlete. First and foremost is a sense of autonomy, freedom to play. Um, the second one is doing something that really matters to you, which is obviously purpose. And the third one is connecting with a sense of mastery to kind of realize your potential. So I think it's fascinating that this has been proven through research over the last hundred years that if play purpose and potential are the three most intrinsic motivations in the workforce, and they're also the three most important ingredients to get into the flow state, maybe we should take them a bit more seriously than we are. Which is why I dedicate a few chapters in the book to one, the play state, but also intrinsic motivations and redefining success.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it is fascinating. Ben. Uh, I love the book. Um, and, and, you know, you as a mindset coach, well, you left Nike in the, the late 90s. Um, and I want to fast forward to, to 2016 because you were, you were already a mentor. You're mentoring, uh, world champion surfer Stephanie Gilmour. But you, you met with, um, Peggy o', Neill, who's the, the president of Richmond Football Club, uh, in Australia, where your, your mentorship changed their destiny. And, and I think, you know, a lot of what we've talked about here, you know, feeds into some of that story. But can you, can you tell the listeners what happened and how you transform their success on the field?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so, yeah, Peggy was this. Not only was she a woman, she was an American woman working in an alpha male sport. Like, how dare she? Yeah. Um, and she was getting bullied, I could tell by, in both the media and, um, just in the sports industry in general. And I started working with Peggy, um, a few years earlier. And in 2016, Richmond were like the basket case of the AFL. They, you know, they didn't have one rival group of individuals trying to sack the coach and sack the captain and sack the board. They had three different groups trying to sack everyone. It was like a Monty Python meets Seinfeld kind of skit. It was that crazy, right? Um, they did a review and they realized that the big issue around the organization was connection or in particular, disconnection. And, uh, Peggy asked if I could get involved and mentor the captain and the coach at the time. And, uh, both these individuals, um, thankfully had the courage to, um, make sense of who they were before what they did and decided to embrace vulnerability as a strength rather than a weakness. Um, both of them had elements of imposter syndrome. Um, they thought leadership was all about them. They had to have all the answers, right? And everyone was looking to them for the answers. And they were loners, they didn't ask for help. They didn't have mentors in their life. They were probably rationalizers to a certain degree. So they're making excuses or in denial of the truth and hadn't established their core values. So I took on, um, those two individuals initially because everything starts from leadership down, right? It's the same at home. Parents set the agenda for the house and kids become a, a product of that environment was exactly the same in the workforce. Leaders set the agenda for the environment to create that psychological safety. But if leaders see vulnerability as a weakness rather than a strength, right. They'll be very closed and closed minded rather than open and open minded. They won't be very compassionate to themselves or each other. And then they won't create this incredible connection that is a competitive advantage inside organizational cultures. Right. In fact, my opinion, connection is one of the last truly great competitive advantages inside organizational culture because your competitors can't see it, so they can't defend against it. And when you have this true connection and that true vulnerability, which Richmond did in 2017, and I'll never forget Trent Cochin, the captain. He got up on January 10, the start of the season, in front of all these alpha males, all the players and the coaches, and he got up there and he said two things. He said, first and foremost, I'm so sorry. For the last five years, I thought I had to be the perfect captain with the perfect strategy and the perfect pre match address, right? He was so caught up in perfectionism and caring what people thought of him that he just couldn't be authentic. And he said, I apologize, I'm imperfect. Like, I'm full of struggle. I don't have all the answers. Right. I'm scared to even, you know, um, tell you this, but I'm not sure if I want to even keep playing football anymore, let alone be your captain. So I just want to acknowledge one thing. I'm imperfect. But he also said, he goes, I also have learned something about myself along this journey recently. I've also learned that I'm worthy, that I matter, that I belong and I'm worthy of your love and belonging and connection and taking this band of brotherhood on a journey. And nine months later, they went from being the worst team in the AFL to winning The Premiership. And Trent went from unofficially voted the worst captain in the AFL to officially voted by his peers as the best captain in the afl. Wow. Uh, and what he did was as soon as the players heard him, accept his imperfections, which gets rid of perfectionism, but believe that he's worthy. That creates an incredible self belief. Other players are able to take off their masks and their armor, uh, and talk about their vulnerabilities and then bring these incredible principles of, you know, storytelling and belonging. Which was very similar to um, Ted Lasso. You know, the uh, the world's number one show at one stage around the world became so fascinating when, when that came out and Richmond went on to win three of the next four premierships using these principles. Um, so that was probably the major theme and I dedicate a chapter to that, as you know, Nick, in the book. But they're also able to identify what was sabotaging Richmond from a performance point of view, which was the demon of expectations, in particular expectations of other people, whether it's media or supporters, but also expectation of outcomes. So removing that, you know, demon of expectation, removing that pressure was, was uh, incredibly liberating for the, for the players as well.

Speaker B: I, I don't follow afl, um, but I'm a, I'm a football fan. I'm here in the uk, in Manchester. So Manchester United is my team. Uh, and uh, you know, I think reading that and, and thinking of the, the you know, the talk, talking on looking at the parallels and uh, it's, it's about you know, making sure that they can flourish under, under pressure and, and actually with this season it's been fairly successful here in the fact that they got rid of a manager. I liked him as a person, Reuben Amarin, but he was, he was very, you know, one track minded. And uh, and then Michael Carrick, an ex player has come in as manager and uh, and and changed it around. But it's, you know, it's amazing what you could do. It, it was about this working for the team. You know, I read an interview just the other day and he said, you know, I haven't changed much really. I've just opened up the opportunity for the talent, uh, to flourish under pressure and put people in the right places, you know, and make sure that they're connected, uh, and you know, that they feel part of this culture and they believe in the winning. And it's amazing, you know, how this mindset and just this change has really, you know, turned uh, their opportunity of what's happened within the season and and taking it on. So hopefully that can happen, Ben, and if not, I need you to step in and uh, and speak to, to the leadership team at United carries on.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. I spent some, many, many years ago, I spent some time up there when Alex Ferguson was, uh, was in charge. I went to the FA Cup. Manchester, um, United versus Milwau, um, which was played in uh, it's actually played in Wales, in Cardiff, in um, Millennium Stadium. That I remember it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I write about in the book. Um, probably your, your arch nemesis in terms of uh, Manchester City. Um, they own a football team here called Melbourne City. And the coach was incredibly, uh, a brand new coach. Get caught up in expectations of Big Brother. Right? And he'd lost the first five games. But once he realized that what was causing the pressure was the expectations of, of other people, in particular Manchester City and expectation of outcome, he banned the word from the entire organization. No external expectations equals no pressure. Right? And he uh, got a phone call from Big brother in Manchester, from head of hr, saying look Patrick, you can't ban a word like it's in the Oxford dictionary. And he said, just watch me. Right? Um, or just effing watch me, right? Anyway, they won 13 of the next 14 games and he became the first coach in history to win the cup and the shield in his first season as coach. And the only thing he did differently was ban the word expectations from the organization. Right. Now you don't have to go to that extreme, but once you realize what the word means and what the word doesn't mean, it can create this incredible freedom.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And I think, uh, well, I suppose staying on the uh, football course. And you just mentioned some of these parallels with Ted Lasso and Richmond, uh, Richmond afc, uh, the, the Tigers. Um, you know, I love Ted Lasso as a program. Uh, but when you, you watch the show, what does it, what do you think the, the TV show gets right about the work you did, maybe with the real Richmond, the Tigers? And where does this Hollywood version diverge from the messy reality of how you do change a team's mindset?

Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Um, it was incredible. When the very first episode came out of Ted Lasso, I think I received about 15 text messages saying, have you seen this show? Do you realize what's going on? Like, first and foremost, both teams are called Richmond. Both teams have a female leader, which is unusual. Both teams bring an in house journalist. Right, right. Um, into when the team's at its worst, by the way, which is incredibly courageous to track the, you know, to track the season. Um, and both of them were labeled as one of the worst teams in the competition. But what was crazy, right? And Ted Lasso came out three years after I worked with Richmond. Um, they used the exact same principles of. And by the way, the four secret ingredients for any organizational culture to flourish as we rolled out at Richmond so successfully was authenticity, which basically means the courage to be me and live a life true to me, rather than feeling I got to fit into someone else. I can just be me. Like imperfections and all that's incredibly powerful for creating psychological safety and the freedom to, you know, to ask questions. Right. And be yourself. The second one is vulnerability, and treating vulnerability as a strength rather than a weakness, and leaning into risk and uncertainty, emotional exposure and permission to say, I don't have all the answers. Right. Because one of the quickest way to bring vulnerability into culture is to ask your team, what's the one thing I can do to be a better leader to you today? Yeah. Or what's the one thing I can do to be a better parent? Right. We never ask these questions. We never talk about our mistakes and what we learned about the mistakes to encourage other people, it's okay to make mistakes and learn from them as well. Um, but also storytelling. You know, the best leaders tell the best stories. The best cultures have the best stories. Because if you have a culture that's rich in storytelling, you don't need thousands of rules and regulations and HR manuals. Right. Because the storytelling educates and inspires. And when you bring storytelling, in particular, when leaders tell stories that connects on a human level, not on a transactional level, it's incredibly powerful. And one technique we rolled out at Richmond FC that Ted Lasso also brings out through the show is we called it the Triple H, Nick. And Triple H stands for three stories. Who's my hero and why? What impact did they have on my philosophy of leadership in life? A hardship from my life. And why? Because our greatest growth comes from our darkest times. Right. So talking about our hardships and how we overcame that adversity is often where our values are, uh, hidden. Um, and then thirdly, what's a highlight from my life and why? So we celebrate the journey along the way. And, yeah, when you. When you see, uh, the most senior person in the room get up there on stage, take off their mask and armor, and Ted Lasso celebrated this, um, and talk about these stories, it creates the most extraordinary connection. And for everyone in the room, they tap into the greatest AV that they've got access to. Which is their imagination. As humans, we have this thing above our head called imagination. And we're the only species to the best of our knowledge that has imagination and the capacity to tell stories and be inspired by tapping into that imagination and dream like, dream big with that what if. Or why not us or why not now, if you like. And yeah, I think the show captured it incredibly. And yeah, when I'm giving talks now in the US I get introduced as the original Ted Lasso from Australia and they talk about the, uh, you know, I guess the similarities between the two shows. Uh, so, yeah, they got an incredible amount right in terms of the writing of it. I still haven't met the writers or Jason Siddiquis, so we still don't know whether they were aware that there was a Richmond FC three years before they created the show that literally, you know, kind of mirrored them. So I don't know whether it's art imitating life or. Or life imitating life or sometimes it's. It's too close to tell. Right? But yeah, it's. It's, uh, it was quite fascinating. The, yeah, the similarities between the two,

Speaker B: I think they've got to. I mean, it's just like you say, there's just so many similarities that have got to take in some, uh.

Speaker A: Oh, uh, quick aside, Nick. The very last episode, and I won't spoil it for those who haven't watched the series, but I'm in New York City, right? I'm about to give a talk. I'm jet lagged, I'm homesick, I'm on my own. And my three boys, um, all messaged me saying, have you watched the last episode? And I said, no, don't tell me. And so I watched it just before I went on stage. And when my dad died, I learned. I was the youngest of six kids and I learned to play the guitar just for, I guess, no reason. I was on my own a lot and I just picked up the guitar and started to play it just for something to do. And. But the first song I ever learned to play and sing out loud to, you know, other people, which in hindsight was probably a dedication to my dad, was, um, Cat Stevens, father and son.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Anyway, so I'm watching Ted Lace. I'm watching the last episode when Ted says goodbye to the players and leaves to go to be reunited with his son. And the song that gets played in the last, literally the last scene is Cat, Steven's father and son. Um, and I'm in the hotel room, I'm bawling my eyes out on my own with this, like, shiver down my back is like, can you screw me up even more? Right. Anyway, yeah, it was quite a, quite a surreal kind of couple of years watching the show.

Speaker B: I could absolutely imagine.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I mean, I love the show. And, and actually, as I was reading your book, uh, you know, they've got the, the believe sign, haven't they? Above the, uh, you know, the changing room, uh, 20 door. Uh, and you know, that. And in reading your book, I realized it's not just about outcomes that sign. It's. It's about identity. It's not about asking, you know, uh, believe we'll win. Yes, that's part of it. But it's believing each other in themselves beyond the scoreboard, isn't it? And that's exactly, you know, the, the work that you talk about. Separate, separating your individual worth from your wins.

Speaker A: Correct. Yeah. And yeah, just on that word, believe. When I was writing the book, Nick, it was probably one of the more profound, uh, insights for me. I've never prioritized my work. No one's ever asked me, like, of all the work you do, like, what's the most important work, you know, what's the most important mind hack or exercise you can do with people? But I've come to see that belief is probably the most important aspect. And I write about in the book, everyone comes to me for confidence in their skills, but what they need is belief in themselves or belief in where they're going. Now, confidence is evidence based. It's learned experience. Right. Uh, you can learn how to, you know, practice how to hit a golf ball, and then you'll gain trust in your ability to hit the ball. Belief is existential based. Yeah. Like, it's deep rooted and it's foundational. Like, I can believe in a God even though I might not be able to prove he or she exists, but I can also believe in my potential, even though I haven't done anything yet. I, um, might be the youngest player on the team right now. I often ask my clients if confidence and belief had a punch up in the street. I had a fisticuffs in the street. I often ask, who do you think will win? And so often they say confidence. Say belief kicks confidence's butt in a street fight. Because confidence is evidence based. It goes, have I been here before? Belief goes, I haven't been here before, but I believe in my potential and I trust we stay true to our values and we stick fat, we'll be able to get there. Right. Which makes Belief, one of the most important aspects. And as you said, Ted Lasso had the sign. There's two beliefs, in my opinion, Nick, that are more important than any other. Um, one is just to believe that you're worthy to believe that you matter, no matter what, just as you are. Because then you can trust that whether you win or lose this game of football or win or lose this game of tennis, it's okay. The sun will still come up tomorrow because you're already enough just as you are. Then you can be totally committed, but fully detached. Uh, I think Oprah Winfrey calls this detached attachment, where you're totally committed to what you want to achieve, but you don't attach your self worth to whether you get there or not. So, in simple terms, I am enough. Right? But I'm not done yet. Because there's an even bigger belief, which today, when there's so much fear around uncertainty and so much change going on in the world, the second belief is learning to believe in your potential, to believe in what's possible, to believe in the opportunity, and then trust that if you stay true to yourself and your values, you'll actually get there. Yeah, things will work itself out because that second belief fundamentally changes your relationship with uncertainty. Uh, you can't control the future, you can't control uncertainty. But you can control your relationship with the future by tapping into your belief in what's possible. And that makes tomorrow one of excitement rather than anxious. It's like, how good is this possibility, opportunity? Right. And the future belongs, in my opinion, to those who understand the power of those beliefs, but also identifying beliefs that are holding us back. Now, unfortunately, our beliefs get shaped from a very young age, right from our life story. Things happen to us in life, and we believe something right about ourselves or about the world or our place in the world. And, uh, unfortunately, with this reptilian brain with a negativity bias, what we often believe in particular about ourselves is more negative than positive. And we have thousands of thoughts every day. Uh, there's no stake in the ground that says, ben now believes this, or, uh, Nick now believes this. So the process of identifying the beliefs that are holding you back from realizing your potential and then the impact or the consequences of holding onto that belief. And now was, you say, well, in the same way that you used to believe in the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny or Father Christmas and no longer do apologize if you do, Nick, you can also reframe other beliefs that are, uh, potentially holding you back in life and then develop a different trust statement. And it's incredible when people identify these beliefs that are holding organizations back or teams back from, um, believing they're worthy or, you know, believing their potential. Of all the work we do around the world, whether it's with, know, NBA teams, football teams, or the corporate world, that's one of the, for me at the moment, that's one of the most exciting and, and revolutionary ways for perspective shifts to take shape inside an organization.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, talking about perspective shifts, um, it was, well, it was while you were at Richmond, or it was via that connection. Ah, that Ash Barty. She's a Tigers fan herself. She, um, she, uh, she, she contact or reached out to you because alongside the work that you do, Ben, you know, Ash won three Grand Slams, stayed at world number one for 81 weeks, which was unheard of for, you know, in the female tennis world. How did you help her manage the immense pressure and expectation. We shouldn't use that word. Ah, particularly in Australia, where she, uh, she carried the hope of a nation. And were there any tools or mantras that you told her to use in order to stay grounded, to play for herself through that noise?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Ash's story is fascinating. You know, she starts playing tennis when she's 5 years old and fast forward 10 years, like she wins junior Wimbledon, right, um, at the age of, you know, M.15. But she, um, thought it was going to be the best day of her life, but it became one of the worst days of her life because as soon as she won junior Wimbledon, she got completely distracted by the demon of expectations, whether it's from media or social media organizations and so forth. And, and she hated that pressure and that expectation that came when she moved back to Australia. She didn't even go to the Wimbledon ball that night and meet her heroes, right? She jumped on a plane and came back to Australia and cried most of the way home. And it just got worse and worse and worse over the next few years. There was so much buildup, there's so much expectation, there's so much pressure, there's so much noise. Similar to what we said earlier about if you lose that intrinsic joy for playing and being in that play state, going to be in the fear state, right? And so she literally retired from the sport. She literally walked away for, you know, three years and took up other things, right? She took up cricket and played cricket professionally. She played, um, football professionally. Like, it was incredible what, you know, took up golf. Um, she's very good at a lot of sports, right? So, um, and then one night having a Hit a tennis with her best friend, Casey Delacqua. She goes, you know what? I want to have another crack at this. So here's ash Barty version 2.0. And you fast forward to Wimbledon 2018. She's, uh, just off center court. She's. She's 41 up, about to go to 51 up in the set. And she gets spooked again. She gets distracted by, you know, opinions of others, whether it's in the crowd laughing, are they laughing at me, you know, in body image? Or they just, um. Am I getting distracted by the outcome? That expectation of others and expectation of. Of outcome are typically the two distractions that sabotage any athlete anyway. She sabotaged herself on. On the court and lost almost every game after that. And she cried herself to sleep that night in Wimbledon, and she woke up the next day and she goes, screw that. Like, that's not who I am. I don't know who I am. But that's not her. Uh, I can't retire again. I'm like, I'm only 21 years old. So she did the most courageous thing anyone can do, right? She lent into vulnerability, and she went on a journey to make sense of her story. That's when we started working together after that, Wimbledon in 2018. And she was able to realize that playing tennis is what she does. It's not who she is. There's so much more depth to Ash Barty, the human being, not the human doing. And she was able to separate the person from the Persona. And she was also be able to separate goals from expectations. Right? Goals are these positive energy, but unfortunately, athletes and Ash. And if you confuse goals with expectations, there's all this pressure to achieve these goals. Right? But she was able to separate these goals from expectations, and she started to put these beautiful goals out in the universe without any guarantees or promises or, you know, expectations she could achieve those. Those goals, and that freedom just set her free. You know, she had a goal, she wanted to. She set 10 goals down. I think, um, one of them was to beat, you know, the top or the top five tennis players in the world. She knocked off all those goals in the first month of 2019. Right. Uh, she wanted to make the quarterfinals of a Grand Slam, which she'd never done before, which she also did within the first month of setting those goals. Right. In January 1, 2019, she wrote these 10 goals down. She achieved almost all of them within four months, including winning the French Open and becoming number one tennis player in the world. Right. Quite extraordinary when you put these goals out in the universe, but there's no expectations. So along the way, I guess in terms of what. I guess the exercises that Ash did was very much to. Instead of writing a to do list, she wrote a to be list. What kind of human do I want to be to able to connect with that authenticity? There's so many things in life we can't control, but the human we want to be is not one of them. Uh, she was also able to tap into appreciation, which is a superpower against, you know, expectation. Instead of saying, I got to go to training, Ash would say, I get to go to training. Uh, I got to go to this press conference. Ash would say, I get to go to this press conference. But she also brought more play into her life. It's quite a famous story at Wimbledon in 2019, where Naomi Osaka got so spooked by, you know, the press conferences and the, you know, the, um, the negativity around the media that, you know, she took a leave of absence from tennis. Ash turned it into a game, and Wimbledon in 29. She tried to integrate, um, Disney lines from Disney movies into every press conference without the media finding out about it. And it took something, which is normally a pain, going to a press conference or something that Ash was so excited. She could not wait to get into these press conferences and drop these lines like, uh, to infinity and beyond, or, you know, hakuna matata, or, you know, you've got a friend. Her funniest one was the seaweed is always greener. Uh, the seaweed is always greener in, uh. I can't remember what the end of it was. The seaweed is always greener in the place. Uh, anyway, um, it'll come to me, Nick. Um, the seaweed is always greener in somebody else's lake, I think was the line from the movie. Anyway, um, her team had so much joy and playfulness in not taking life so seriously. But the amount of athletes that. Whose job description it is to play but aren't actually in the play state, they're in the fear state. So I guess the biggest one for Ash was self acceptance and self compassion, uh, because she was really hard on herself, as a lot of us are right as humans. So learning to accept her imperfections, learning to accept her body image, learn to accept that life is uncertain and she can't please everyone. And then bringing self compassion along for the ride was a superpower for her. Um, but probably the biggest one in a performance sense was learning to do three things, was learning to accept the things she couldn't control and focus only on the things she could control and the best version of her. And she suddenly realized that there's so many things in life or in tennis that she can't control. In particular, the opinions of others and the outcome, the future or the expectations of outcome. So letting go of those, learning to identify and let them go. Um, and also she realized there was only three things she could control, and that is her intention. Like, what does she want? Like, what's the goal? The second one is her effort. How hard she's prepared to work or train or study or practice. And the third one was her mindset in the moment of performance. What are the words that best describes how she's feeling when she is in the best version of herself? Like, what's her A game when she's in that flow state? And my book actually opens telling the story at that French Open semifinal, um, in 2019, when Ash was 5 love up 40, 15 up in the first set. But then she got spooked, right? There was a rain delay. She lost the point and she lost the point. She lost the game and the next game. And not only did she lose the unlosable set, but she's three loved down in the second set. You know how I said your greatest growth comes from your darkest times? Because it unlocks humility and curiosity. Uh, and if you ever see YouTube highlights of this, Nick, you'll see what I mean. But Ash sits down and she starts laughing to herself. She goes, well done, Ash. Clearly you're going to lose this match today after being five lap up in the first set. But she has this aha moment. And she goes, you're letting the conditions of your environment determine your mindset. And she suddenly realizes that. Hang on a sec. I decide my mindset like I decide my attitude and I decide my self worth. Uh, she taps into agency, right? Uh, and with that, I decide. She also remembered the words, which in her case is calm, clear, confident, sharp and free. Yeah, they're her A game words. She tapped into those words. They and tapped into that agency, right? And she walked back on the court, she broke the girl serve for the first time in nine games. She then held her own serve for the first time in nine games. She wins six games in a row. She wins the set, six, three. She wins the next set, six three, right? Um, and the next day she wins the French Open. And two weeks later, she goes to Birmingham, England, I think, and she becomes the number one player on the planet. And she stays there for the rest of her career. And her life will never, ever, ever be the same again. Right. But if you go back to that moment at three, love down in the second set, she had a choice to make. Yeah. She could have let the conditions of her environment determine her attitude, or she goes, hang on a sec. I decide my mindset and I decide my attitude. And for me, it's just a wonderful, um, I guess, reminder that in the midst of any struggle, we've always got the power to choose or decide our attitude. So it's not what happens to in life, not what happens to us in life that actually matters, it's how we respond. Yeah. We've always got that power to respond in any situation. And the amazing thing about tennis is, no matter what happens during that match, you have to win the last point. It's one of the rare sports in the world where you have to win that last point. So you're always in with a chance. Right. If you've got the right attitude and, you know, skill set and mindset, marry up. So, yeah, Ash is a wonderful example of someone who. And then her perspective, right? Then she retires at the. At the peak of her powers. And just to be clear, I didn't advise her to retire. Like, it's not my fault. Like, I wanted her to keep going. But, you know, when someone is so intrinsically motivated like Ash, not extrinsically, she said, crowe, I could keep playing for a few more years, maybe win a few more Grand Slams and make more money and so forth, but why would I? I've achieved more than I've ever achieved. Winning the French Open was a miracle. Winning Wimbledon was the dream, and winning the Australian Open was the goal. I've achieved so much. Right. Uh, but there's so many other things I want to do with my life from an intrinsic perspective in terms of other ways I want to play, other ways I want to find purpose. I want to start a family, I want to start a foundation and a charity. And, yeah, when she retired, I was really worried she was going to get attacked by the, you know, the classic clickbait warriors on Twitter, saying, you know, get back to work. You know, woman, you're only 25 years old. And, uh, it blew me away. I guess I underestimated how much she's loved and how much winning the Australian Open meant, in particular down here in Australia. But also when you connect with your intrinsic motivations like that and you have the courage to walk away extrinsically and connect with those, I think the rest of the world thought, wow, that's quite brave. And I wouldn't mind a bit of that as well, you know, because for the rest of us, our identity is so caught up in our careers that to have the courage to step away from that career and make your identity more about what you value rather than what you do is, you know, it's quite courageous. Yeah. And to Ash's credit, she was able to stay true to who she was through that, through that journey.

Speaker B: No, it really is. And for her, like you say, to retire at the top of a game, she, she knew her own mind, didn't she? And you, uh, know, she was comfortable, like you say, from an intrinsic point of view. She didn't care extrinsically about it all. I mean, I think I'm a tennis parent. One of my sons, uh, well, my eldest, he's, he still plays on the ITF circuit, uh, competed at junior Wimbledon. Uh, he's now on a scholarship, uh, in the U.S. but uh, I know that tennis is, is just as much a mind game as it is a skill. And, and I think, you know, here in the uk, as he's grown up and I've been part of that journey, you know, I've definitely seen that the LTA don't put as much emphasis on, you know, having that right mindset as they do as spending time on the court practicing their skills. You know, never, never once in his junior career a mindset coach was recommended to us. In fact, we, we, uh, we were doing a tour in Europe. He was playing on clay. We play on hardcore here in the uk and he was struggling big time. He was losing to all these Europeans who know how to play on clay and can slide and everything else. And uh, he was really struggling. And I reached out to a mindset coach, a great guy called Dave Samuel, uh, and he really helped him through those moments. And it was like this epiphany as well that it just started to click and he was starting to understand he was, he was getting down, heartened at the, you know, losing on clay. And he was like, listen, just, you know, play for the love of it. And uh, and actually through that he was losing a lot of his singles matches, but he went on to win. That summer that we were, when he was 16, he won, uh, two, uh, doubles titles on the ITF Tour. So, you know, he found that love in it and, and he became a better player because clay, you need to hit 40 shots before he's got a big serve and a big forehand. And uh, he was, uh, he was always looking to do that and that doesn't work on clay play. So he had to change his mindset not only for his game, but also personally intrinsically on how he felt about the sport. And it, it was just, it, it changed his, it changed his mindset and it changed his life in terms of his perspective on how he, how much he enjoys tennis now. So it's, it's so important, Ben.

Speaker A: I think so, yeah. And you use that word, enjoyment. Right. Um, we forget that sports, you know, and tennis is a game based on the principles of three things. Compete, have fun, and play. Right. If I asked your son to find me an early play memory and doesn't have to be playing tennis, he could be playing, you know, in the backyard with friends or out on the street or on a family holiday. Uh, but if I asked him to find a memory and he'd give me a memory. Right. And then I'd ask him, right. O. What are the words that best describes how that little boy is feeling in that memory? He'll probably tell me one of five words. He feels playful. He feels free or carefree or a derivative of those. He feels excited or adventurous. Yeah. He feels a sense of safe or warm or belonging. And very often we also feel loved. Now he can recreate those same play states on the tennis court today. Yeah. And if I then asked him, when you're playing tennis, what does play look like for you?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, it may look like problem solving, solving the puzzle. Right. Uh, it might look like being curious. Okay. How do I adapt to playing on clay or playing on grass or, you know, it may be experimenting, uh, changing his serve option. But as long as he's in the play state, he's not in the fear state. And you're right, because tennis is one of the sports that we've observed because we get so much demand from, you know, the world's biggest tennis players who are still caught up in fear. They don't call it fear, by the way. They typically call it pressure. And it's typically one of two pressures. It's emotional pressure, believing I have to live up to the expectations typically of my parents. Right. And that's when you bring that pressure on the tennis court. It's hard enough to win a game of tennis. Right. Let alone if you think your self worth and your love from your parents is predicated on whether you get there or not, that's a lot of baggage to take on the tennis court. And the second one is expectations of outcome. Right. Uh, as Andre Agassi used to say, no, one point is More important than the next. They're all worth one point if you attribute value. If I win this game today, suddenly I've won Wimbledon, he'll be focused on the outcome, he won't be focused on the process. And if you're outcome driven, that creates that outcome pressure and you'll normally tighten up rather than lighten up. So the best advice we give not only coaches, but parents of tennis players is six words. Yeah, I love to watch you play. It's not I love to watch you win, or I love to watch you get 10 aces. Right. I love to watch you play. Um, because it's unconditional love. Right? Or I love to watch you dance, or I love to watch you draw. And you. So your reward process, not outcome. Yeah, Reward effort, not outcome. You reward these intrinsic motivations. Um, the three most powerful words you can say to your kids if they're, you know, aspiring athletes, is no matter what, whatever you want to do with your life, son, um, or daughter, we're going to love you no matter what. M, we've got your back no matter what. And what I'm loving so much. I mean, I'm loving that the book is number one in Australia and has been for, you know, four or five months. But in terms of why I wrote the book, from an intrinsic level, um, we've received over 400, uh, letters and emails, a lot of them handwritten from parents who have banned the word expectations with their teenage kids. And I think the book has just created permission or safety to have a conversation over the dinner table and say, look, just to be clear, like, it's your life. We want you to live your life for you. Please don't feel like you have to be a successful tennis player to, you know, to live up to our expectations or think you've got to please us or prove something to us or be validated, right? We're going to love you no matter what. And that simple conversation can not only, like, save a life, save a career and change a life and change a career. Because today, unfortunately, because the world's become so extrinsically motivated, and it's the same in the workforce, right? You know, we think our self, um, worth is predicated on getting, you know, getting results. But we say, always reward effort, not outcome. Reward intrinsic motivations, because employees can control those things. Uh, kids can control those things. And I might get that. I might get asked a question, well, what do you mean by that? And I say, well, you say to your child, well done. When you fell down and you got up again, because that's resilience or well done when you had to problem solve that tricky situation on the clay tennis court. Um, that's play. It's being in the play state or well done when you helped your teammate who had no idea where she was supposed to stand on the football field or the netball court, right? That's just called love. That's just teamwork. That's. And we call these things intrinsic motivations, but we can actually control those things, right? We focus on those little things. The big things will take care of themselves. But the biggest one for me is redefining what is expected of you and what isn't expected of you. And the reason chapter one of the book is dedicated to what we call the dreaded E word. Expectations is, in my opinion, it's the most dangerous word in the world today. And it's not so much the word, it's how we define it. I know Shakespeare called expectations the root of all heartache, right? Um, but where expectations used to mean things we can control 100% and pressure is defined as things we can't control but we still want to control them. It, uh, was typically emotional pressure or outcome pressure. But today we're defining expectations as something we can't control, which is typically expectations of others, you know, parents or coaches or fans or expectations of outcome, the future, which you also can't control. Right? So now today's definition of expectations is our definition of pressure, which is why you'll always hear those two words together when you're watching the World cup telecast over the next month. Have a listen to how many times you hear the word pressure and expectations in the same sentence. In particular, in England, right? Because of the unhealthy relationship we have with the football team and the expectations of the nation. Right? Football's coming home. Football's coming home. Right? Um, having worked with Dr. Pippa Grange, who spent time with the, uh, football team many years ago, and bringing a more playful approach and trying to remove that pressure and expectations, in my opinion. I mean, confidence comes from skill set and mindset. But outside of skillset, assuming we had the same talent in the country, the biggest differentiator, uh, is in the moment that counts. Am I in the play state or am I in the fear state? Because of that, you know, how I'm defining what's expected of me. So the quickest way to remove pressure from your life this very second is to redefine expectations as something you can control. Because believing you have to live up to someone else's Expectations and prove yourself to someone else, whoever these others are. Uh, it's just not our life task. It's like it's not our responsibility, uh, it's not our role in life to do that and we can't control it anyway. Right. So reframing, uh, what is my responsibility in life and what is my expectations are uh, things I can control. The expectations I have for myself. And I heard Michael Jordan talk about this recently. You think about his kids, right? Expectations. He said he went to great lengths to sit his kids down and say the only expectations you have are ah, for yourself. Right? Don't ever think you have expectations outside of what you want for yourself. What kind of human do I want to be? What are my values and goals and dreams? And if you've got the courage to stay true to you and live a life true to you on so many levels, that's success. The alignment between what you truly value and how you show up in the world. So yeah, I think if we can remove expectations, we will remove pressure. So that's the huge opportunity for the whole planet, in my opinion.

Speaker B: Well, it's not a surprise, Ben, that it has been uh, number one, uh, your book for the last five months. I mean in Australia. I think it's a tremendous book. 9. We've touched on a number of the perspective shifts. There's nine different perspective shifts in the book itself. You know, we talked about uh, you know, removing the word expectation. We've talked about from being a, ah, from human doing to human being. I think your final chapter in the book is called From Performance Anxiety to Performance Confidence and some flow hacks that you talk about. So I, um, let, let's draw it to a close by touching on some of those because I was fascinated by the humming hack. Ah. So uh, and there's lots of different other flow hacks that you talk about. So what's, what's your favorite, I suppose that you use or you uh, you know, you recommend some of your clients to use to suppress anxiety and increase confidence, whether it's on the sports field or, or in the boardroom itself.

Speaker A: Yeah, the humming one surprises a lot of people. Nick. Um, yeah, I wrote about in the book, ah, Esther Perel, uh, who's also on the, you know, the front cover of the book. Um, and I wanted her on the front cover because she helped me understand the interrelationship between play and love. Because if the opposite of love is fear and the opposite of play is fear, then the relationship between play and love is very, very close. Right. And she helped me understand that, you know, love, um, is the noun and play is the verb. Like love is the intention and play is the action. Yeah. Uh, and play mobilizes love. So as long as you're in the play state, you're the closest thing to this authentic version of yourself. That sense of unconditional love that we have for yourself. She gave a talk at south by Southwest with Brene Brown. And Brene asked her, you know, what do you do when you're feeling anxious? What's your flow hack? And she said, I hum. Um, because the thing about humming, it's both primal and soothing at the same time, right? As infants, it's one of the first things we learn to do. And if you've ever done yoga, Nick, you'll hear about the om breath. The om breath and humming just enables you to take a breath and cross create this space that enables you to process and not get into that, that fight or flight kind of state. Um, and yeah, it's incredibly. And hum is also very playful. Right? Just get into that playful hum. You can hum a song. I've had that many clients who, who will text me after a match and you won't believe it. I, this song came into my head, I started humming it and enabled me to stay processed. It was like a ritual, you know, that I just continued on and enabled me to, to be successful. But yeah, to your question, um, yeah, in that last chapter we talk about power of breathing and diaphragm breathing in particular as the quickest mind hack to tell the brain everything's going to be okay. And when we're babies, we breathe through our diaphragm where there's, you know, 75% more oxygen. Right. And when we become teenagers and we get pimples and we think we got to fit into a try, we start breathing through our lungs and only 25% oxygen. And it's where cortisol, that kind of fight or flight. So, um, if you're about to be attacked by a tiger or a shark, you know, you're not going to be in this relaxed Buddha belly breathing, right? You're going to be up in your lungs. So just taking a four second breath hold with your diaphragm is the quickest mind hack. Everything's going to be okay. So breathing is really powerful as well. I mentioned, um, belief and confidence. Um, the confidence mind hack is those three steps developing an acceptance list of all the things you can't control. And if you don't accept them, you suffer. You'll create that pressure, developing a focus list of the things you can control, which is that intention, effort, and mindset. I think that's really powerful. Um, one that's quite unusual, that doesn't get enough attention, in my opinion, is the power of dedication. Because, you think about it, Nick, if you dedicate, let's say your son is playing in a, I don't know, junior Wimbledon final. Yeah. And if he dedicates that performance to someone else who's helped him get there along the way, it could be a parent, it could be a coach or an ex coach, a brother, a sister, a neighbor, like, it doesn't matter. But if he dedicates that performance to someone else, it takes that performance to quite a spiritual level. Like, quite a deep level. But the most amazing thing happens, right? Uh, he lets go of ego and he lets go of fear, because, like, it's literally not about him, right? He's dedicating his performance to someone else. It's incredible how successful that theme has been in team sport. When the teams in the m, you know, the moments that matter, dedicate themselves to other people who have helped them along the journey. Um, but also appreciation, right? Uh, um, the Boston Celtics, a couple of years ago, when they won the NBA title, tapped into appreciation in the most beautiful, simple way. They came up with three trademarks they called the triple. T stood for the three, T stood for team tough. And my favorite one is thankfulness. Uh, and they also used to say, instead of saying, I got to do this, they used to say, I get to do this. And Joe Mazoola, the coach at the time, talks about this. Richmond Football Club tapped into appreciation using the word celebrate. It wasn't celebrating outcomes, was celebrating the journey, celebrating the moments, and celebrating the little things. Because when you replace expectation with appreciation, um, or that sense of entitlement to, uh, feeling lucky and thankful and grateful, um, that's also a superpower as well. So, yeah, they're probably some of the interesting mind hacks that probably don't get enough attention, but, uh, are incredibly powerful to get you in that flow state.

Speaker B: Yeah. I took a photo of the page, uh, talking about humming, and sent it to one of my mates, because he hums all the time. And I said, who knew? You know, I thought you were just trying to annoy us all. But actually,

Speaker A: yes, it often happens instinctively. But then when I remind the client of the powers of humming, they go, okay, I'm going to do it proactively from, you know, from here on in. And, you know, it doesn't mean you Win. But it often means you're more present. Yeah. And just more relaxed and more playful as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. To finish, Ben, uh, few questions that I ask all my guests. And we have, you know, a, uh, protocol where the last guest leaves a question for, uh. For the current one. So my last guest was Grant McCracken. He's an anthropologist, uh, studies American culture, has written over 15 books on. On the topic. And, uh, he did his research on you. He knows that you're a surfer. Ah. So his. His question to you is. Uh, I've never surfed before, but I've always wanted to know what it's like when you're surfing in the green room. What's it like when you're surfing in the tube?

Speaker A: I didn't say I was a very good surfer, Nick. I'd probably like to know. I'd probably like to know the answer to that question as well. I've been, uh. I've been barreled once in my life, um, which is being in the green room or in the tube. I remember it being. Well, in my case, very scared because I knew what was about to happen when it closed out all over me. But it was also incredibly quiet. Um, a lot of surfers say it's the closest thing to God when, in terms of their connection with nature, as they define God. Uh, um. Is that incredible when just time still. And it feels like you're in slow motion? Yeah. And just. It's so quiet and you've just got this little gap that you focus in on this little bit of light. Right. And you just focus on staying in on that line. Um, it's quite a spiritual moment for a lot of surfers who know it probably a lot better than I do. But, yeah, that sense of being incredibly calm and present and still. Hence, they often believe it's such a spiritual connection in terms of their relationship with being in the green room. But, yeah, if I ever get to do it again, I'll. Hopefully I'll know it better, Nick, and I can give you a better answer.

Speaker B: Well, I've only. I've only tried to surfer a couple of times. And, uh, you know, I. I thought I was fit. I thought I was sporty. I must have stood up about three times. So, uh, yeah, I've definitely never been in the green room.

Speaker A: All you have to do is man up one snick and you're officially a surfer. So congratulations.

Speaker B: Uh, next from the listeners. Uh, firstly from Stuart Skinner, who's in Melbourne, who asks. The idea of walking away at your peak is counterintuitive in business where we taught more is always better. When should a leader consider an ashbarti exit from a, uh, strategy or even their role?

Speaker A: Yeah, great question. It's like, when is enough enough? Yeah. In terms of. From an extrinsic side of things. Yeah. If you feel like it's at a stage where, you know those. The top three motivations why anyone goes to work is play, purpose and potential. If you're not doing what you do for those reasons, you're typically doing it for extrinsic reasons. You know, um, economic pressure, you know, doing it for the money, making more money. Emotional pressure, you know, expectations of others, as I mentioned. So if you've achieved from an extrinsic level all the things you wanted to do and there's not a lot else left from an extrinsic lens and you feel like there's something missing, there's a good chance that you've achieved, but you're not fulfilled. Yeah. Um, or you might be in the wrong role. That's not tapping into that sense of purpose and contribution and fulfillment and meaning beyond yourself. So it's probably a good time to take a step back and do some self reflection and think, okay, in terms of what do I want? What does play look like for me? Am I in the play state or am I just in that state of inertia? I'm just going through the routines. I'm going to work, I'm getting my paycheck, I'm making great money, but I'm not excited. I'm not playful, I'm not carefree. I'm not creating something new or experimenting or tapping that imagination. Um, or spontaneity. Right. All these different types of play or what I'm doing doesn't fulfill me. There's no. It doesn't give me a sense of meaning or doing something that really matters. Yeah. Or I'm not learning or growing or getting out of my comfort zone to see what's possible or opportunity. So I'd say, yeah, if, you know. And for some people, they don't get a choice. Right. So you might not find those intrinsic motivations because, you know, you literally need the money. You need a house to live and money to live with. So, um. But yeah, assuming you've got that choice, I'd always say do a diagnostic and am I connecting with my intrinsic motivations? Right. And they're all different. Purpose might be being part of a team or helping others or, you know, meaningful work or meaningful relationships. Um, and learning and growing might Be different as well. But I think if, yeah, if you can get the combination of both, you're in your sweet spot. But for a lot of us, you know, I mean, yeah, I worked. I work in the finance industry around the world. Um, and the amount of people that work in finance who've been so extrinsically motivated to the detriment of their intrinsic motivations, and they're quite well known, or they made m an enormous amount of money, but, you know, the kids have grown up and moved away from home, and they're all having this cat's in the cradle moment of, like, God, what just happened to the last two decades in terms of my perspective, in terms of what I thought was success. But I get to the end of the line, and there's so much I've missed out on that creates more contribution and fulfillment. So, yeah, that would be my answer to that particular challenge for all of us.

Speaker B: A great answer. And secondly, is from Carmen Price, uh, who's in Sydney, who asks, I'm a pa To a CEO who's rightly or wrongly observed with quarterly targets, how would you translate the fulfillment over trophies concept to their leadership?

Speaker A: Yeah, it'd be exactly the same, actually. Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't have a client on the planet that doesn't want to dominate and win. Right. And for a lot of them, they're companies, right. So making money is really, really important. But if it's to the detriment of those intrinsic motivations, you typically won't have great psychological safety, you won't have a sense of enjoyment and engagement, so forth. So, yeah, I'd say the same thing is, um, redefine success from both an extrinsic lens and an intrinsic lens. And what I mean by that is, um, rather than living in this gap mentality, where the company's here, but they want to be there, and there's this constant gap, this pressure you get them to measure backwards to when they first started out. Right? Uh, so if I gave you a sheet of paper, Nick, and I said, righto, go back to when you first started out in the workforce, right, and write down all the little wins, you know, all the little successes, the promotions, all the little gains you've had from when you first started to where you are right now, you know, talking with me m on this podcast. And then I said to you, right, oh, look at this incredible list. Like, look how far you've come. And you live your life in the gains. And if I said to you, how do you feel you'll probably say you say Ben. I feel, I feel grateful because I've had this incredible journey. I feel successful, uh, I feel confident, I feel happy. And my favorite word at the moment, I feel content. Now I'm not done yet. Right. So I've got all these goals and dreams that we want to go after as a business. But in terms of that sense of fulfillment that you mentioned, everything I go after from this moment on is a want. Yeah. It's not a need if I need that. Right. In terms of that, extrinsic motivations are constantly feeling that this not enoughness, this constant gap between where I am and where I want to be. But if organizations can measure backwards and remind themselves how far they've come and live their life celebrating the gains, there'll be just a different perspective and getting that balance, in my opinion, between achievement and a sense of fulfillment as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I get that. What's the best piece of business advice you've ever been given?

Speaker A: Oh, the best piece of business advice. Um, I call it the Bill of Rights. Um, Phil Knight used this a lot. One of his maxims, um, that he wrote down back in 1977 was if we do the right things, you know, we'll make money damn near automatic. Right. I think it was the last maxim that Phil Knight created. Created, um, over the journey, uh, it's evolved to what I call the Bill of Rights, which is five rights, um, which stands for do the right thing for the right reason in the right way, at the right time, with the right people. Now, you don't have to have all five of those rights ticked off, right. When you're going to make an important decision in your professional or personal life. But if the word wrong is in any of those five, it's the quickest way to synthesize right or shit test, identify where I might be going wrong in my decision making process. So the best piece of advice from. Yeah. In the corporate world is I constantly use that with clients when they're going to make a tough decision during COVID Right. Do we lay people off? Like, do we still pay people? Sometimes there's no black or white answer in life or in business. So. Okay. But instinctively, if you do the right thing for the right reason in terms of your intentionality, and then you execute it the right way with empathy and compassion, and you do it at the right time with the right people, very good chance you'll get the right result. Not always, but the likelihood of getting the right result is, uh, exponential.

Speaker B: It's about putting all the odds in your favor at least, isn't it? And uh, yeah, what's one of the

Speaker A: best pieces of advices that, that you've been given as well? I mean, yeah, this podcast is incredible in terms of the, you know, the insights and the learnings that, that you're sharing with, uh, you know, with the wider world.

Speaker B: Well, I think, um, and I take this every day into my life, but, uh, it was a family business that we run with my agents, my agency before with my father. And I, uh, remember delivering the first, you know, research, ah, presentation, uh, and it went well. And I remember my dad saying to me, uh, you know, you're only as good as your last presentation. And uh, I think it was, it ingrained within me that work ethic to always do your best, you know, to be humble like you say, and work hard, but, uh, you know, always strive to deliver the, you know, next project you've delivered and met the needs of one client, but you've got another five. Five clients that you're managing projects with. So always to, to work just as hard. You know, you can't rest on your laurels and say, that was a good job because, uh, you know, you're always pushing forward. And uh, and I suppose that's uh, I've taken that into my, uh, my work life every day. And, and, and, and doing this podcast, I suppose I'm only as good as the, the last podcast. And uh, so this is a, uh, this has been a fantastic podcast, man. That's for sure.

Speaker A: I love that. Yeah. Humble and hungry is, is a, is a really, is one of my favorite mantras. And be interested, not interesting is also one of my favorite mantras. Um, but yeah, I, uh, I worked with a client recently, a lawyer who took on Donald Trump in the Supreme Court and, and actually won the case. The first lawyer in history to, um, take on a president, um, on the tariffs last year. And uh, yeah, I asked him what worked. I did every, every exercise I've ever done, you know, high performance exercise with a client. And some I just made up. Right. So, um, and I spoke to him the next day. I said, well, congratulations on behalf of the world. I said, what worked for you? Right? Because, um, you did so much work. And he said in quite simple ways. He goes, ben, when you explained the difference between got to and get to, instead of saying, I got to win this case, right? I got to, I got to give the best, you know, address I've ever given, right? Put that pressure on yourself. And he flipped his mindset to get to. All right. Like, he goes, how good is this? I get to represent democracy or the Constitution? And he could not wait to get into the Supreme Court. Um, so, yeah, that's. That's really powerful. One of my favorites is even when you lose, you win. Um, when I was trying to finish one of the chapters in the book on intrinsic motivations, um, my beautiful father in law passed away. And, uh, before he died, Nick, he learned to play a new game. Uh, my three sons taught him how to play beer pong. I don't know if they have beer pong in the UK. Um, and anyway, 10 minutes into the game, uh, he whispers to me, he goes, ben, this is the best game ever. And I said, why? And he goes, because even when you lose, you win, right? Because he loves beer. It was really bad. And he was having a skull of beer. And for me, what I love about that expression is that if something doesn't go your way tomorrow, right? Uh, something doesn't go as planned, but there's a lesson in there, like, there's a learning or there's a growth in there, right? Then that's technically a win. So even when you lose, you win. Right? Just as my beautiful father in law, Rod Grace, said to me all those years ago. So, yeah, that's a beautiful mantra that I keep dear to me as well.

Speaker B: It really is. And we all learn more from the loss than we do from the win as well, don't we? Take those learnings into the next stage.

Speaker A: Totally, totally.

Speaker B: Who would you like me to reach out to? Who would you like to hear, uh, on this podcast in the future? Ben?

Speaker A: Well, yeah, in terms. Well, definitely have a crack at Phil Knight. I'm not sure if you'll get him, but, um, yeah, Phil's been really, really powerful for me. Um, Adam Grant. I'm not sure if you've had Adam Grant.

Speaker B: I haven't had Adam, and I've spoken to him a couple of times, uh, via email. Uh, and it's not fallen right. But, uh, hopefully, you know, I will continue to, uh, pressure him and

Speaker A: a few others, um, is Daniel Coyle. Daniel's, um, just written a beautiful book called Flourish. Um, and what I found incredible about Daniel's book was he talks about, and I didn't know this, uh, and it's incredible, you know, how we struggle with uncertainty today, and there's so much burnout in the workforce today. He explains through. Actually, it was in, uh, a professor at Oxford university in the UK, where they've been studying the brain for the last 30. 30 years that our, uh, brains actually have two operating systems. One's called the controlling attention system that wants to control everything and have everything certain and set squared and, you know, very granular. Um, but we also have a much bigger operating system called the connected Operating System, or, uh, connected Attention System, and that zooms out to the bigger picture and surrenders to the unknown and almost enjoys uncertainty. And since we were cavemen, those two, uh, operating systems work in unison. Right. They work together, but the connected one is more powerful and more important. Right. Uh, now they work together like kill or be killed. So you need the controlling one if you're about to be attacked.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: If you didn't zoom out to the bigger picture and realize that, you know, the animals were migrating and the temperatures were changing, it was getting cold, you die out as a species. Right. So. But today, because we're obsessed with mobile phones and. And technology and. And so forth and fear, we've lost sight of the. The connected operating system that looks at the bigger picture and realizes that life itself is uncertain. And we're being driven wholeheartedly by this controlling operating system that wants to make everything certain and control over these things that we can't control. Right. And I think that's fascinating, but he talks about how cultures flourish and how organizations flourish as well, so he'd probably be one that I'd highly recommend. He also wrote the Culture Code, which is a very famous book as well. Um, so, yeah, he'd be one that I'd suggest trying to get on your. On your podcast.

Speaker B: Well, I haven't had Daniel and I get sent a lot of books, and I think in the last couple of weeks, I've been sent the book Flourish, uh, from the publishers, so I will. I'll follow that up for sure. I haven't managed to turn my attention, but that summer reading, I will. I'll pick up the book Flourish.

Speaker A: Sounds great, Ben.

Speaker B: Finally, um, my next guest is Maureen Dunn. She's a cognitive scientist, uh, a neurodiversity expert, whose latest book is called the Neurodiversity Edge. How to Embrace Autism, adhd, and Dyslexia for any organization. What question would you like to leave to Maureen?

Speaker A: Oh, wow, there's so many. So, um, much that we mistake, um, or don't understand. I'd say if every CEO could understand one thing about neurodiversity, what would she want it to be? Um, but also just in terms of strengths. Like, what strengths do people with autism or ADHD or dyslexia often possess? That traditional workplaces consistently overlook. Right. Because there's so much brilliance and magic and giftedness that it's unique but I think is misunderstood or might scare off. Um, and yeah, having worked with quite a few neurodivergent, um, whether it's athletes or people in the workforce or in media. Yeah. Um, celebrating. Ah. But also learning to accept differences and celebrate those, you know, what you might call imperfections as part of the beauty and part of the gift. I think that's really, really important for, for the rest of the world.

Speaker B: Yeah, it really is. So I'm looking forward to that. In fact, she's writing a new book. I don't know whether it'll be done before I, uh, speak to her, but, uh, we'll, uh, I'll pose those two questions soon. Ben. Well, Ben, I am, you know, an hour and 20 minutes and it's, it's flown by for me. So I need to thank you for joining me today. It's been a truly enlightening conversation. Uh, I think so many takeaways. I think the, maybe the greatest takeaway from today is that a person can change their entire life purely by changing the perspective. It's, it's about purpose over performance, being vulnerable over invincibility and definitely growth over, uh, mere resilience. So, uh, for our listeners, it's. If again, I suppose a thread that I'll take from today is that the highest performance isn't about armoring up, it's about removing your. Said it. The mask. Uh, having the courage to be human and to connect to a why bigger than whether it's a quarterly target or uh, the performance on the pitch. You need to see every, every crack or every setback not as a flaw, but as an opening where the light can get in and the learnings can take place. So your book, uh, love it where the Light Gets in, uh, can be found online and all good bookshops. And we haven't even covered off the amazing work you do for, uh, Vimojo, your online course that helps leaders perform with confidence under pressure. Again, shifting mindset. So if people are interested in the work that you do, where can they. Where would you, uh, ask them to go and learn more?

Speaker A: Yeah, simply just go on to our website, um, mojocrow.com. yeah, it's probably the quickest and simplest way where you can understand. And that's what happens when I wrote the book because we're just getting smashed and I could clone myself a thousand times and not keep up. But what's even better now is We've got these exercises that we can roll out, organizations can roll out at scale. Um, whether it's through workshops or digital exercises as well, and whether it's on leadership development or creating connected teams, um, yeah, it's a privilege to do it. And now we can do it at scale and then eventually get it into the education system. And we worked with the World Health Organization many years ago, and they were the ones who were kind of pushing us to try and get these principles out into the workforce and into hospitals and universities and education as well. So Mojo Crow was born. And, yeah, it's having the same moment that my book is having, which is a really good thing. Right. And so it can actually do the work. Um, and at the back of the book, there's some exercises that individuals can do as well. But, yeah, definitely go to mojocrow.com to. To find out more.

Speaker B: I love your strap line as well. Embrace your weird. So, uh, yeah, um, Ben, we couldn't. You're in Australia right now. I'm in the uk. Uh, we couldn't do this face to face. We're in June. I know you're on tour in the UK in July. Um, so if our paths do cross, uh, and I know we talked beforehand, if we are at Wimbledon, then hopefully we can, uh, catch up face to face. That will be amazing. Uh, likewise. I've got a load of mates over in Australia and I'm definitely overdue a visit there. So, uh, you know, if we can't make that happen, then hopefully, uh, in the future there. But, uh, thanks again for everything, for the book, for, you know, the fabulous episode we've had today. And good luck with pushing it in in Europe, in the UK and the rest of the world.

Speaker A: Thank you so much, Nick. Thanks for. It's been a joy talking to you as well, so. And I absolutely look forward to that beer in Wimbledon. It's, uh, it's your shout.

Speaker B: It certainly is. It certainly is. Let's try and make that happen.

Speaker A: Sounds great. Thank you.

Speaker B: So here are my three key takeaways from speaking with Ben. Firstly, Ben talked about how to get rid of pressure. And to do this, we need to banish the word expectation. How can we do this? We talked of three ways. Uh, firstly, replacing expectation with appreciation. Gratitude is a potent perspective shifter, uh, enabling us to think, you know, how good is this? Really being excited about the moment. He also talks about replacing expectation with experimentation. When you're experimenting, you're in the play state and not the fear state. Uh, and so not thinking about expectations. And thirdly, he said about dedicating a performance to someone else who's helped you along the way. That way you let go of your ego and fear, uh, because it's no longer about you, uh, and it's about a bigger perspective that you're playing for. Changing your relationship with the word expectation is a game changer. It requires a deep focus on what you can control and reframing what success means to you. And only then can you, uh, set yourself free from the opinion of others. Another perspective shift he talked about is the fact that we're called human beings, not human doings. And we typically attach our identity and self worth to what we do externally and how we want others to perceive us. And our identity then becomes what we do rather than who we are. And, uh, in the book, he talks about changing. Well, in order to change this, we should set a to be list rather than a to do list. Ask yourself, what kind of a human do I want to be today? There are so many things in life that we cannot control, but the human we want to be is not one of those. We can 100% control that. So, uh, you know, our identity, not, uh, a mask or a Persona we wear, pretending to be something we are not. So set that to be list and then follow that through and be true to yourself. Finally, he talked about some of the flow hacks of how we can shift our mind from being anxious to being confident. And he mentioned humming, uh, as this improves oxygen flow. It calms, ah, the mind and works especially in the heat of battle. Uh, and I know Ash Barty used this technique to win tournaments by humming her favorite tune. Another flow hack he talked about was changing the way that we breathe. Belly. Breathing through the diaphragm is the quickest way to tell the brain that everything's okay. It makes sense if you've been chased by a tiger. Your breathing is going to be quick as opposed to slow and relaxed. So breathing through your diaphragm says to the brain, all is good and we're calm and therefore lowers heart rate, regulates our emotions, and ultimately reduces stress. Next up is Maureen Dunn. She's talking about how we should embrace autism, um, ADHD, and dyslexia in the businesses that we run. I hope you can join me for that fascinating conversation.