🇬🇧 #34 - Finding revenue leakages: How RevOps prioritizes growth, with Sandra Kjærstad from Inpay

Gregor Kohler: The Commission Corner learnings from CFOs, sales leaders and rev ups. This podcast is presented by your hosts Gregor Kohler and Alexander dosser. Have fun. Friday, 9:30 in the morning. What better start is there than to record a new podcast episode? And this time we have a guest from Copenhagen. Sandra, welcome.

Sandra Kjærstad: Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. Happy Friday.

Gregor Kohler: Oh yes, happy Friday to you too. So it's wonderful that we uh, will spend the next 30 minutes, 30ish minutes around uh the topics of sales, compensation, revenue, operations and your role. So just um, to kick things off Sandra would you feel um, alright to give our listeners a quick introduction to yourself. Um, so who are you and what is your role?

Sandra Kjærstad: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so uh, I've been working in commercial um, or with and in commercial and revenue uh teams for almost 16 years. Um, I really love helping a customer buy and build and unblock cross functional uh, collaboration. Um, I think my core thing I've figured out over the years is really taking like a top strategy and then turning that operational and tactical. Right. So what does it actually mean that big Harry or your vision that you have ahead, what does that actually mean for the day to day, month over month? Um, what does it mean for someone in a team? Um and then I'm currently on my fifth year in tech and I have been focusing heavily on sales and leadership enablement and also commercial operations. Um and in the past three months I've now joined FinTech. I came from, from uh, EV tech before. So.

Gregor Kohler: Yeah, so a new world for you. Um, but I guess the role more or less is probably the same. Um, maybe you can tell us a little bit more about the company that you joined the fintech. What are they doing? What is the basically the, the companies that they help and yeah, what is basically maybe also the first steps that you take when you join a new company.

Sandra Kjærstad: Ooh, good one. I'd like to start with the last question first actually. Um, so like um, I said before I'm pretty like um, I'm customer people and efficiency obsessed basically. So um, the first step I like to take and also took this time is uh, to try and get as close to customers as possible so understanding customers and then I find that in um, any industry really but uh, let's say especially in sales because we are quite excitement driven and initiative driven and are very good at pitching those ideas. Um we tend to be, tend to be more idea driven than maybe uh, revenue gap driven. So um, there's a certain element of you know getting an Overview. So that was my step two, like really trying to understand what initiatives are going on, uh, what is the strategy and what is, what is the gaps or the things that we struggle with in the business and then um, see where, like how big is the revenue gap on those different things. Right. And try to, to prioritize from that. Um, and then, then third step is obviously starting to, to execute, uh, to some degree. Um, yeah. And then you also asked me about, about inpay. Um, I, uh, I, you know, I was really excited to join the company. Um, I could see that there was a really, really good mix of, you know, great culture, great uh, product, great uh, history. Like it's a, it's a company that's been really been around for a while. Um, and then that is mixed in with, you know, every company has cycles of, uh, change and the company is currently in a, in a position, um, where we're both doing really well, but there's also a lot of opportunity to um, uh, optimize and improve. Um, so yeah, it was just, it was a really, really great challenge. And I can say that, uh, the way I understood it, the company is also delivering on, ah, now that I'm a few months in, um, yeah.

Gregor Kohler: And having multiple opportunities is of course a good thing. Um, Sandra, now you mentioned you are very customer obsessed and you mentioned that one thing that you start off with is to get in contact with customers. I mean, since revenue operations does not only focus on existing business but also new business, does it also mean you joined potential new client meetings with the sales team and existing client business, uh, existing, uh, business customers with the, um, customer success managers?

Sandra Kjærstad: Yes. Yes. Um, I was so lucky that uh, within my first, uh, month already I was able to join one of the events or fairs that uh, the company visits every year. So one of the big ones, um, it was the ice gaming conference in Barcelona. Um, so, uh, that combined with, you know, speaking and interviewing to the different reps about uh, how they, what they communicate with customers about, like what do we actually talk to them about? What do they ask us about? Like, that kind of understanding is what I went after. I um, think when you're in any department in a, in a company, um, understanding that and getting close to a customer is, is something we, we kind of owe to ourselves because it's, it's not everything is sales. Whether you are in finance or you're in dev or, you know, you're delivering an end product to someone. Um, and the better you understand that person, the better you can kind of um, prioritize, I guess, within all of those, you know, great things that comes our way in a day, uh, that we get to choose from. Um, yeah, it's a good, um, compass to have understanding that customer.

Gregor Kohler: I can imagine. Uh, especially as you mentioned, uh, we are in sales, always excited. We do have plenty ideas which may drive revenue. But uh, then the task of the revenue operations managers is to navigate those ideas into real revenue drivers, uh, which you also mentioned. So do you have a good strategy to navigate these, all of these ideas? Um, for example, when Alex and I are, ah, speaking about our own sales process, we do also have plenty of ideas and it's quite hard to uh, figure which is a real revenue impact idea and which is not. So, um, is it just your experience and uh, skill set or do you have data approach, uh, to bring in what's your scope?

Sandra Kjærstad: Um, so I, um. Yes, I think so. Some parts of it comes with experience. I guess there's always like a playbook or a blueprint or you know, something you've tried before that you can all of a sudden see the layout for in a new, uh, context. Right. Um, but uh, my favorite way of doing this is um, um, through two things. So one, like I mentioned, always start with the revenue gap. If you cannot identify or tie a revenue, uh, to something, then it's probably not a P1 at least. Right. Um, I know that we have um, different things that we usually want in order, like a playbook. We want training, we want um, um, our CRM to run perfectly. We want data to be clean, like all that stuff. Right. Um, but if you could try to tie it to revenue, preferably um, multiple deals or at least one deal, then um, that is usually a pretty good indicator of that. The initiative or the task itself is worth going after. Um, but you also don't want to be reactive. Right? You want to be proactive. So there's something around, um, whenever we list out. That's one of the things I did with the team. For example. Now in my first few months, um, we just chucked all of the stuff that's going on. It doesn't matter if it's a super tiny task every day or if it was a big thing we're doing. We checked it all on a whiteboard and then um, we try to attach a metric to it at least. So if it's not driving revenue, is it then driving efficiency, is it driving hours saved, is it driving a cost save somewhere? Ah, revenue operations is just as much about, uh, fine tuning that engine. Right? And making it profitable as it is, uh, driving new revenue. So, um, that's one of my favorite things. It's, it's not complicated. Uh, it's not rocket science. Uh, you know, it's, it's more like really getting to okay, if we do this thing, what will it save or generate or whatever. Right. And if it's very hard to put something on it, then um, you table it for now, which can be difficult, you know, but, but um, but yeah, that would be my way to go.

Gregor Kohler: It sounds like a, uh, potential big whiteboard, uh, to be filled in the end, um, as you orchestrate, ah, entire revenue organization. Maybe just a quick follow up on that. Um, was it um, like a thing to do with each department on itself or was it a joint effort where you brought um, sales department and marketing department maybe customer success together? And it was one really big uh, whiteboard. How did you get into that topic?

Sandra Kjærstad: That's a great question. Because that ties into communication, which is also one of my favorite areas. Um, whenever there is, um, there's this, um, let's say whenever there will be like a trickle down effect or a trickle up effect, um, how you sequence those conversations really, really matter. So I started with the team, um, just the RevOps team and what we have going on. Right. Because that's our immediate reality and that's the stuff that we know that we can hopefully uh, you know, tie something to, uh, right away. Um, and then I widened that circle so um, my own customers or my, my stakeholders and, and, and own teammates in the, in the executive team, so our sales leadership essentially. Um, so I widened the circle to that. And then, um, uh, just in this case there was also certain communication that needed to be done around what it is that RevOps actually do, how we, how we operate and, and, and and and how we contribute. Right. Um, you, you want to be viewed as a strategic partner and not a fee burner at the end. So um, uh, the last part was communicating to full company that uh, you know, make like let us reintroduce ourselves in a sense. Um, yeah, which, uh, which was just the context here. Right. It's not always needed but, but it was the, was the, the way to go. And then in between those like bigger milestones, uh, close communication obviously with uh, with M, with C level and with um, uh, other stakeholders that would be involved. So. Yeah,

Gregor Kohler: so that does mean that probably if I understood correctly, that Refops is a newly introduced role at inpay.

Sandra Kjærstad: Um, yes and no. It's kind of been, um, I um, love how in commercial industries we have like certain buzzwords and titles and you know things move around a bit. Right. Um, but uh, it's not a new thing, uh but it's, it's had uh, different shapes and forms, it's been sitting different places in the, in the org. Um, I'm sure you guys are also aware of that people you can frequently mix up um, sales excellence or commercial excellence and enablement and you uh, know that kind, those types of terms and departments. Uh ah, revops is really just the way of tying that all together. Right. So um, yeah that's um. It wasn't a new thing, uh, but kind of really making it super clear what it is now was needed. Yes.

Gregor Kohler: So revenue operations you mentioned is kind of the glue of a company but at the same time the accelerator, so interesting uh approach uh to have something glued and accelerating uh other parts of the company at the same time. Um and acceleration is uh quite important when uh focusing on the sales process. So um, to um, get more leads in to uh, get customers closed. Um, can you give us a quick overview of how the sales process at inpay looks right now and um, where you are ah, ah impacting that process currently?

Sandra Kjærstad: Yes. Um, so um, we have a usage based model. Right. Um, ah there's definitely, definitely um fixed fees ah involved as well. But um, um we operate with a quite classical bow tie design. So we have something coming in. Right. It's just a champagne funnel where we move that way to signing and then from there um, ah there's uh three layers essentially. There's the customer success, there is um, you know the technical onboarding and success of the customer. Um and then there is a ramping phase so um, where we kind of help the customer um uh get into usage and adoption. Um and then uh, once they are up and running, you know our cam team takes over and that circle of life is complete so to say. Right. So hopefully no grave, but from cradle to grave it looks kind of like that. Very classic I would say. Um, and the way at least uh I look at it from a rev ops perspective is very uh, holistically. So we obviously look at it from the very, very beginning to the very very end. Um but I'm currently also uh, still uh, um uh digging through you know, what, where do we have the biggest leakages, where do we have uh, the biggest opportunities for um, for acceleration. So yeah.

Gregor Kohler: And uh, Sandra, since you move from ah, an EV business to a fintech business, both businesses are very different and I guess for a Fintech business, as you mentioned, it's consumption based so I guess the activation is way more important than it is for the, the other industry that you worked in, right?

Sandra Kjærstad: Mhm. Yes. Um, and um, maybe that's also a good example of some of the first priorities we'll make. Right. What does a really, really good customer onboarding look like? Um, if you're talking the whole customer journey, we're looking at what does great handovers look like? How do we build that customer bible so that it really supports conversation, it doesn't repeat, um, information extraction, um, ah, how does it build relationship, uh, or continue the relationship with the customer? Um, most newbiz teams are really legends at building those relationships. Right. So you want to make sure that whatever is said and the vibe and the culture in a sense that the customer buys into along with the product is also continued throughout. Um, yeah.

Gregor Kohler: So we had to look on uh, the sales process and you mentioned it's a consumption based model that you're working with which usually comes uh, with uh, some needed uh, collaboration with a finance team or data team. Because this consumption based level can impact commission, can also impact uh, profit or contribution profit. What is the connector between you and the finance team or you and the data team in that regard or question, uh, is it managed by the revenue operations team itself? So do you have data scientists in your team and um, lead them? How does that work?

Sandra Kjærstad: M. Um, so I'll start with that last part of the question first. Um, the team currently uh, composes of um, system admin and tool stack. Right. And then data analytics and insights. Uh so we do have an analyst in the team. Yes. Um, and then um, we're also looking into um, enablement um, and how we can best work that and the more project based initiatives. So those are the three different fields that we have in the team currently. Uh, with that said we have a lovely finance team as well and a lovely data team as well that we work very very closely with. Um, so I'd say you know, responsibility, um, wise again I think I'm quite classic here in terms of let's say ownerships and stuff. So um, uh you know, taxonomy and uh, system design and you know revenue architectures, it's with us. But then uh, we obviously need help from data and finance to make those things uh, work. So that's how we, how we currently do it.

Gregor Kohler: All right. Um Sandra, now you also mentioned um, that basically you are new to the company to inpay three months in. Uh, there are a lot of things that can be done. But maybe, uh, you can also tell us what's currently from your perspective, because I guess everyone has a different perspective. What's currently the biggest challenge that you think, um, you want to tackle in the next month?

Sandra Kjærstad: Oh, that's a great question. Um, so I think we have like a few things ahead of us, but, um, there is something around, um, you know, internal, uh, tooling and gaps. Um, we are very much like the whole business is really into AI at the moment. Like everyone is. Right. Um, so, um, so, but on the tooling side, there, There are some gaps that we um, want to close. Uh, and tied to that is like operational efficiency, but also just the experience for, for the rep internally. Right. Um, and there's also an external experience there in terms of what our customers, uh, encounter in the funnel. Um, in fintech, you obviously have the added caveat of compliance. So, um, making that very, very smooth for someone in both, um, uh, end of early funnel and then, um, onboarding, uh, is probably, uh, some of the stuff that we'll tackle first, uh, or at least you know, have prioritized now for. For q. Q2.

Gregor Kohler: Um, yeah, so you're talking about kyc. Kyb. So the, the verification process that is. That is needed to onboard new clients.

Sandra Kjærstad: Yes, yes, exactly.

Gregor Kohler: Yeah. I think in the end, uh, what comes in. And you also, uh, drop that magical word artificial intelligence is, uh, all around. And it's quite similar to the introductional words that you found that there are many ideas around AI, but also some revenue gaps. So it's not just done by introducing a fancy AI tool, um, but it must be some, uh, tool that really helps driving revenue. Um, is there some tooling that you would recommend, uh, to a fellow Rev Ops colleague, uh, where you can say yes, uh, this is an AI tool which is fancy, yes, but also drives revenue.

Sandra Kjærstad: Um, I don't know necessarily what I would recommend. I think, um, all people have their favorite in terms of what LLMs they're using. Uh, in my sake, it's Claude and GPT. So quite standard there. Love. Um, both of them, um, and especially gotten closer into Claude, uh, lately. So, um, that's probably my favorite at the moment. Sorry, GPT, if you're hearing this, I guess you're on. Um, but, um, I will say on the topic of AI, um, I read a wonderful article the other day. It was by, uh, one of the. One of the lovable, uh, women. Uh, they. I'm so sorry, I can't remember her name. I'll have to, have to. Have to look that up. But, um, she said that for anyone who is, uh, currently hesitant or maybe don't really know what to do with it, um, or maybe only really do very high level automation and chats. You know, if you want to take that next step, um, which I think everyone should do no matter what department they're in, if you want to take that next step into starting to build, um, a very good way to do it is actually just block some time, let's say three hours in a day, somewhere in your month and uh, try to build, if you could try to build your product's own company or your company's own product and see how close you can get. If you can get very close, that is probably a sign of that market shifting into, you know, in house builds. If you cannot get very close, uh, I think everyone can get close with the ui, right? But, but, uh, but if we're talking mechanisms underneath, uh, you, you probably uh, have a bit more Runway to work with in terms of, of innovation and time before it takes over. Um, and I just thought that was like, ah, an incredible way to, to make it very t. Um, I also think that what's fun with AI is that um, you know, I come from the EV industry, right? And the number one reason, uh, at least three years ago, ish, that people didn't really make the switch was because they simply had not tried the very act of going out and charging a car. It was, it was like, you can, you can imagine the concept, but you haven't actually done it. You haven't actually picked up the app, tried to do the thing, start the charge and whatever. And that felt a bit overwhelming. It was like easier to just do whatever you're used to doing. And I think it's the same with AI. There's like a very human component to getting your company to make the switch. If you, uh, take those human behaviors and human traits into account when you bring it into the company, you'll probably accelerate the adoption a lot quicker. Um, and that's something I'm very happy to say that we do here. So we have hackathons and we have very open communication around it.

Gregor Kohler: So I mean, I have a lot of questions right now. I will also still ask one more question on that topic before we come to the last topic of this, uh, episode, because I think it's really interesting. The topic of vibe coding you mentioned, lovable, is basically omnipresent and uh, also something that we encounter every day now. You are in a very regulated space, Fintech, and you also Mentioned there is this little caveat of uh, compliance. Now is there, are there also security concerns, uh, from. I don't know if you have a data risk officer or data compliance. Security officer, whatever name might be, uh, in terms of vibe coding at a potential risk because security, uh, penetration testing, et cetera is something that is uh, there for a reason. And of course they are some uh, measurements already in place. But um, I guess this is different for FinTech, right?

Sandra Kjærstad: Yes. So um, I have um, our wonderful VP of CS and NGO sales. She worded it perfectly. It's like we have to innovate within a very rigid box. Which is also kind of what makes it fun. Right? Um, it just adds an additional layer of uh, um, um, let's say challenge when you have to innovate. Um, but um, your first question was if we have all of that. And yes, I think whatever you can think of in terms of extreme security data, ah, compliance, uh, uh, we have all of it. And that sometimes, um, no matter the department, but also for revops, right. Sometimes, um, slows you down in a way. But I think it um, more so. I like to view it as two things. One, um, you can flip it around. So let's say that you have for example very rigid documentation. Instead of saying there's a new list of to dos, right. You can call it a pipeline of optimization. So for us, whenever we look at something and it also has to be compliant, um, we take compliance as of part, part of the checklist. But we still put on our, you know, RevOps lens and commercial lens and say how can we improve it? Um, and then um, sometimes slowing down is not the worst thing. That is, that is usually what makes the difference in. I don't know if it's vibe coding or something else. Right, but, but slowing down just a little bit or just taking that extra time to, to think through all of the, all of the, all of the design, um, that makes it long term viable versus something that breaks when you start making you know, all of these integrations and building these systems. That might be a bit spaghetti if you're new to it. Right,

Gregor Kohler: that makes totally sense. And speaking of commercial lands and also thinking long term and not breaking things short term, um, let's talk about compensation and sales commission because uh, this maybe it's a, uh, similar approach that you can incentivize on short term goals but in the end, uh, things can break. So I'm quite eager to learn what your experiences regarding sales compensation or sales commissions, um, that you made during your revops career. Do you have anything to share about uh, that topic?

Sandra Kjærstad: Yeah. So um, in terms of commission, I find it super uh, super interesting. Uh, you may have caught on already that I'm just as much. I am metric and revenue focused. I'm also very people focused. I love topics like uh, motivation, coaching, uh, training, um, uh, because I think those are the types of topics that really takes a team from efficient to dangerous. Um um. But on commission I just, I have some principles that I like to work with. Right. It should always support um business goals. So it should support alignment. Um whatever we do uh in the commercial org, um the, the compensation should, should be tied to those bigger hairy goals that we, that we want to reach. Um I also want to always allow for some flexible components so that you can do a certain, you know, course correction throughout the the quarters or, or the year. Um um, still being a big fan of that. Most of the comp is tied to, to, to the, to the actual performance and the revenue performance. But uh, you want to make sure that you can, can obviously also um, incentivize um, whatever else you want to put a spotlight on for at the moment. Right. If we, if we have a certain uh, if we've done, if, if we have identified a certain leakage point and a certain behavior would support plugging that leakage, then you know, if it's important enough you, you may want to have that as a, as a, as an optional um, part of the compensation bag. Right. Um, but then coming back to motivation, like it should be a motivational driver, um very easy to understand and track for reps, um um, not because it, it's, it should, it should necessarily be simple but um, making it easy to understand just you know, it elevates trust. It's a noise reduction, it helps with focus. So I think those would be my 2 cents on it.

Gregor Kohler: And I guess especially in the fintech space there is a lot of complexity uh to it. I mean Gregor and I have our fair share of experience in that space. And one question Sandra is of course um, your business model is based on consumption but this, let's say actual or realized revenue contribution, whatever profit, um that usually comes at the later stage and not directly because um, sometimes there are money uh, withheld and then just uh paid out after a certain amount of time. So question here is I guess one thing that really is important is also the topic of forecasting. Um, when you have deals, do you work with expected revenue for certain deals and then I don't know, uh, compared with the realized revenue or what is uh, let's say a go to approach for you in this regard for the fintech area.

Sandra Kjærstad: It's a great question. It was uh, it was one of the, of the learning curves to go through here for sure in terms of getting used to a new um, new revenue model. Um, but um, I'll start a little bit earlier than that. Um, you guys asked about design earlier, right? Or um, customer journey. Um, and I'd say um, the way I currently view it is as we have a certain pipeline of deals that we close and then that almost turns into a new pipeline because like you say it's not realized yet. Right. So um, there's something around accuracy in that ramping. Um, um, how good. It's almost like a second part of a new business pipeline that, where, where you, where you say okay, we, we close a pipeline only to transfer that into a temporary pipeline before it actually becomes revenue. Um, so, um, so that's how I, how I kind of view that it has a, it has a certain extra middle step there that, that not necessarily, that doesn't necessarily exist in, in, in traditional SaaS where you just go seat or platform fee. Right. Um, but then, um, forecasting wise, uh, we very much look at um, historic data and run rates. Right. So we tie it more to a run rate and certain performance as to how we're doing day over day, week over week, month over month. Um, luckily I also have some absolute legends here on the team to work with. So um, uh, we have quite good data there and have actually reached a really, really cool uh, level of truth. Um, but then what I've added in uh, now is actually a uh, executive forecast as well. So I think when you work with a usage based model it becomes even more important to understand if there are intelligence within the teams or within certain deals that uh, the model cannot predict. Right. Will this uh, company um, accelerate their onboarding? Will we have to push them to next month? Um, so you kind of work with two forecasts. You work in one forecast of closed deals and what that would be and then you work with one forecast in terms of the running customers. Yeah. Mhm.

Gregor Kohler: Very insightful. So Sandra, we touched base, uh, with so many interesting topics. I think uh, we need to invite you to a second podcast in the future, especially when you ramp more at your current company. Uh, this podcast unfortunately comes to an end already uh, 30 minutes in. But to the end of the podcast we usually play a quick game with our um, guests, which means an either or game. So imagine uh, you just joined A company, maybe a fintech company, could also be an EV company, but the size of the company sales team is around 20 sales reps. And you're uh, about to create a new compensation model and um, Alex and I will ask you um, some question and you have to decide if it's uh, either the one answer from your preference or the other one. And Alex, uh, feel free to kick things off. All right, so Sandra, ah, the first question is when you build a new compensation model, would you put the focus more on the fixed income or the fixed part of the uh, compensation or the variable part of the commission? The compensation. Sorry,

Sandra Kjærstad: um, can you. So how do you mean?

Gregor Kohler: Yeah, so for example, imagine you have one, uh, hundred thousand euros and then that you can earn throughout the year and then you want to apply, for example, a certain um, split to it, I don't know, 50% fix. 50% variable would be, let's say what you see a lot, but maybe you say no. From your perspective there should be a um, bigger focus on the fixed part.

Sandra Kjærstad: For example, I would say 60, 40, 60 fixed. And ah, 40. Yeah, depends a little. Like this is the thing, right? It depends. It always depends. Um, but um, yeah, let's just go

Gregor Kohler: with that sounds like a good base. 60, 40 and the uh, 40%, uh, would that be earned by um, a revenue share or any sort of a share of the deal value or would you create a target setting, uh, environment where I need to attain a specific target to reach that 40%?

Sandra Kjærstad: Uh, it depends. Um, if it's more of a, um, so I'd say if it's more of a classical model where the revenue is very predictable. Like as soon as you close a customer, you know that that's the MRR and ARR you'll be working with. Right. Um, there I'd go more quota based. So are you reaching your quota? Not. And that's a certain payout. Right. Um, if it's more usage based, I think I'd go share uh, of revenue or some somehow there. But uh, but um, I'll, I'll add an, add a disclaimer there that I'm, I'm, I'm yet to design such a system.

Gregor Kohler: All right, all right, okay then, uh, very important part. I mean lots of companies um, think sales reps need to reach a certain threshold like a cliff in order to receive commissions. So question is, would you work with a cliff or without a cliff?

Sandra Kjærstad: Yeah, so I think that ties back to the first question you asked me with the 60, 40. Right. Um, I am always A big fan of very decent basic, uh, pay. Right. Um, but, um, and with that said, I then also think that comp, um, comes with, uh, you know, it's when you do extra, when you do well. Right. And therefore I'd say cliff. But, um, again, it depends. Depends on the model.

Gregor Kohler: Yeah, but first preference is a cliff. And that's very insightful. Um, so also, uh, on the other side of the medal, um, what about uncapped, Ah, commission. Would you put a cap on commission, uh, earnings, or would you have it uncapped in your model?

Sandra Kjærstad: So, um, if the model is designed correctly. Right. Then the business can afford it and therefore I would go uncapped. So hopefully you've taken all of the variables into account, uh, protecting that, that margin. But, uh, but, uh, if you have a rep that can fly, let them fly. Uh, uh, that would be my answer.

Gregor Kohler: So all the people that, uh, right now are in the process of, uh, applying for inpay, you heard it. Just kidding. Just kidding. Sandra, it was wonderful to have you today to talk about a lot of topics that are omnipresent right now. I mean, joining new companies, building revenue structures from scratch, or basically improving them. Also, um, how AI can. Can be involved right now, I guess, Claude, you mentioned it is the number one LLM used out there. And then of course, compensation is one of our favorite topics. So thank you for sharing your views. And um, yeah, that's the end of it, unfortunately.

Sandra Kjærstad: Thank you guys. I was super happy to join. Um, I have a question for you as well.

Gregor Kohler: All right.

Sandra Kjærstad: You obviously do these podcasts all the time. You've talked to a lot of different people, and, uh, I'm hoping to get a little bit out of that too. Uh, what is the number one thing that you guys hear around commission and designing those models? Like, what's your preferred or success model, at least that you've heard the most at this point.

Gregor Kohler: Wonderful question, and I can give you a quick answer. It depends. So in the end, m. Um, what, uh, was proven as the top, um combination is a large focus on target attainments. So OTE models and utilizing revenue shares or bonus payouts as spiffs. So you also mentioned that you hold back a specific budget to navigate through, um, maybe also decisions during the year and the quarter. And having that, um, as revenue shares or bonus payouts is the number one combination. Um, the caviar lies in target setting for all of our, um, guests. So whenever an OTE model is introduced, it's so hard to find the correct target, the quota to be set on each individual and each role. And if you know anyone who cracked that nut already, uh, please forward them or him or her to us and we will have a nice deep dive on that topic. But yeah, uh, long story short, it's a combination key focus on OTE and utilizing a spiff budget for revenue shares and bonus payouts throughout the year.

Sandra Kjærstad: All right.

Gregor Kohler: And maybe also to add on this, I um, guess we haven't had a lot of podcast episodes with people from FinTech yet. So I mean Greg and I of course have a background in fintech. And what you told us is also that we can uh, confirm that there is a certain component like the activation component, which of course makes more sense from a, let's say incentivization perspective. If the reps participate, the better the client performs in the end. Um, so of course a certain share makes sense. Um, but I'm also curious to see how compensation might shift. Uh, now that AI is omnipresent and that some business models shift from let's say just a usage based, just a seed based pricing model to maybe a combination of both. Right. So later today for example I will meet with uh, one, uh, the founder of Plantcraft, like uh, the software for craftsmen here in Germany. And what they recently introduced for example is they have now an AI that can basically answer calls for every craftsman out there. So I'm very curious also to dive deeper into this topic with Julian the founder, maybe how their pricing model might change. And then of course I guess uh, compensation is something that follows this, right?

Sandra Kjærstad: Yeah, for sure. Yes. I think it's super interesting to. Because you, you kind of, if at least if you talk about comp, right. You want to operate within a certain, you know, that's also why I say cliff, for example, I do believe that it should trigger once you hit a certain um, certain um, a uh, certain um, what do you say? Level of your quota. Right. Uh, so, so are you, are you contributing actively or are you, are you not? Um, but, but then there is a difference between target setting or budget setting and uh, Sorry, uh, the budget setting and the target setting. Right. Do you want to take that into account as well? Where do we need to be minimum and where would be nice to be? Um, and where's the delta? Um, yeah,

Gregor Kohler: as you mentioned, yeah, it's a very complex topic and I guess especially with AI and let's say a credit based uh, pricing model or consumption model, it will probably ah, shift. But this is also something I can already tease that here which Gregor and I will discuss going forward with, uh, one of the, uh, sales compensation experts in Europe. Um, but, uh, this episode will follow.

Sandra Kjærstad: All right, I'll have to listen to that then.

Gregor Kohler: Exactly, Sandra. So thanks again for being here to our guest today. And, uh, it was lovely talking to you, and hope the audience likes it, too.

Sandra Kjærstad: Yes, I look forward to hearing the episode, and we'll see how, uh, that

Gregor Kohler: is probably a good one. All right, Sandra, take care.

Sandra Kjærstad: Yeah. Bye.

Gregor Kohler: Bye.