CELab - Ep 185 - The Four Faces of AI Resistance: Eve Kedar on Why Customer Education Should Own the AI Rollout

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Speaker B: Welcome. Hey everyone. Happy to be here. Ah, it's great to be here, Dave.

Speaker A: Yeah, we've been talking about this for quite a while and let's, before we get into it, we'll do a little fun. Let's do an International day of today. We always go look at the page. I'm not going to show it, um, on screen, but, um, we always look at the days of the year. What is your pick for the day? What is this? The International Day of, uh, or National

Speaker B: Day of Work Like a dog. Because My two dogs are lying here snoring. I don't know if you can hear them snoring.

Speaker A: I know they're snoring in the background for us.

Speaker B: I know they think work like a doc means work really hard, but my dogs haven't read that.

Speaker A: That's fun. Yeah. So if we actually did work like a dog, it would be snoozing. Right? Uh, or sometimes not. Uh, my pick for the day was National Blogger Day, which I felt was. Well, I did a lot of it back in the heyday of. I'm not going to bring up all the sites. You know, MySpace is coming back, so. Hey there.

Speaker B: I like Ghost that I am Ghost.

Speaker A: Oh, that's good. How are you? Are you using that platform for your, um, materials and such?

Speaker B: Occasionally?

Speaker A: I've seen. I've seen and heard good things about it. I was thinking about her project. Okay, well, let's give the audience what they came here for. Uh, today, right before we frame things up, I'm gonna do a little bit of background and switch things up and then get to the hypothesis or a thesis. So I'd like. Eve, I'd like you to do a little bit of intro on yourself. You and I have met quite a while ago when we worked at Gainsight together, and now you have. You've been doing consulting with EK Consulting. You're hitting some subject areas that we talked about that we're going to expose here today. Lots of AI resistance. Lots of. What is this interfacing between customer ed and enablement roles and sales enablement. Um, you've got the floor. Talk a little bit about your story arc and the things that you've been working on over the past, uh, years.

Speaker B: Sure. So I'm Eve Kadar, and as I said, I'm super happy to be here. Um, I did work with Dave in the day, and we've stayed in touch, and I've admired his work and progression over the years myself. I've built enablement and customer education programs at companies that didn't have one, like, at Insight, and I built their academy. At Apple, I helped their global approach. At Gainsight, you know about that? At Seagate, I worked and built their, um, system selling academy, taking or rather dragging sellers from selling just boxes to their new journey of being system sellers and consultative selling. And so. And there's a couple things on my record that I. I don't put on my resume because they date me a little bit, but I worked at PayPal and I developed their developer training before that was actually a category and I also worked at Cisco where they were trying to. We were doing change management and helping the people that they acquired from other Meraki and a few others, uh, come into a different world than they had planned to be doing. And I watched how, you know, this happens to people when someone tells them, uh, you were selling that way, but now you're going to work this way. And that is really where I observed what's actually happening with AI now. So it is exciting and new, but it's also. There's a lot of evidence from the past that change management and the human side of it is really what's playing out here.

Speaker A: Yeah, they're the same old tropes that we have all of the time because. Well, before I prompt you for going a little further, the experience sets that I think both of us have had. You touched on change management, you touched on how you're selling things. You touched on that pain of resistance of, okay, well I was doing this and now I'm using this system or whatever. All of the you and I intersect in that space and technology where like you that gainsight have been a Zuko, uh, which got acquired by Okta, then at Outreach, Atlassian and now Vast Data. And I'm leaving stuff out of course that I've done peripherally. But all of these companies have the same thing in common. They're hyperscale, where they're post like Apple or something or PayPal, they repost that IPO and now they're in this growth curve and then acquiring. So it's like the flip. And there's so much involved with that. I think what I really am interested in. You've got, um, we'll talk about some other stuff. The book that you've got, frameworks. I think what I'd really like to get into is your four faces of AI resistance that you've been talking about. Maybe tease a little bit now and then I'll do a frame up and then let's go break into this.

Speaker B: Sure. I'm always happy to talk about it. Right. So the four faces of um, AI resistance. You can also see the. On my website, Eve Goddard.com uh, four faces. It talks about why things aren't necessarily working consistently. Right. Like you've given them these great tools and they log in and you can see it on your dashboard that people have logged into the tool but you're not seeing it show up in the workflow. And what I found over time is that people have the essential fear like will this replace me? Much like when Elearning first came out, right? Like, oh, all the trainers were very upset, like, is this going to replace me? Right? And then there's the other thing, like pride. Like, I was the expert and now suddenly, I don't know, like, what does this tool do? How do I use it? How do I make it part of my workflow? And then there's the more basic one of like, okay, you're rolling out something new. Uh, ah, we've rolled out new things before and where are they now? You know, so there's some scar tissue about initiatives that don't get carried out. And then there's the, uh, people that are super valuable actually to you if you're rolling out an AI initiative. It's like they're the resistors that say the output is wrong. And those are the people that you actually want to pay attention to because they've probably caught some things that you need better guardrails for and that they have the experience of knowing, oh, this deal should have closed. And AI is saying, oh, it's got a 20% chance of closing because it didn't understand that, you know, about, you know, some urgency that's happening or some external sales thing that's happening or some event that's happening that didn't get taken into consideration. So you want to engage those people for sure in your, in your project.

Speaker A: Oh, that's. This is cool. I love this framing here. Speaking of framing, we'll do a frame up that there's all this human emotion, feelings, worry, doubt, um, scar tissue. I particularly love that. And. Okay, well, let's. Pardon me, we've got a lot of smoke in the area this, this time.

Speaker B: I'm sorry about that.

Speaker A: And fortunately I'm, I'm not as, uh, plagued by what's happening over on the other side of the Cascades. But you hear me coughing a little bit. It's the smoke. We've all us Westers, Westerners have had that a lot. But look, in the east coast too, it's crazy. Um, so here's a hypothesis to work from today. Because of our experience sets and the diversity of, um, knowledge we have from going to a lot of different companies and being exposed to that in many BNB B2B SaaS companies. We're talking now a little about this AI thrust where we're at today. This is a huge lift and shift for enablement. Right. And customer education too. So historically there's this pattern, ah, things like these, these kinds of change projects that are really going to transform what we're doing and get us. This is kind of meta too because AI is in over everything. Big projects will say, okay, you're going to use this internally. I got uh, or this got rolled out to anybody who was closest to revenue, sales name went rev ops and uh, the thinking here is that this is why adoption stalls. Now I'm looking externally, you're looking internally. They're meeting right here where we see enablement. That's inward facing, right? Revenue first. How do we get our salespeople, how do we get our team? Sell, sell, sell, close, close, close, right. And we optimize metrics for those things, but neither of those functions. This is hard for me to say because I work in enablement too. They're not built to own learning per se. Right. They're not built for that kind of thing. This is deeper learning. This isn't operational, this isn't sales learning. Customer Ed and this is the hypothesis that you came to me with which I'm really interested in ce. We are the only team within the org spanning the entirety of our post sales and sometimes sales structures, whose job is a perspective of the person, the human being on the other side of the screen who's learning. Right? Not only selling, they want to understand the foundations of things. I remember sitting in some enablement videos too and I'm seeing this kind of thing. We talked to sales, sales, sales, but what about the learning that needs to be brought into it? CEO scope was never limited just to the sales, right? We are spanning account management, CS support, project, product engineering, the whole thing. Now if we get back to the AI thing, if that's true, the team that should own specifically internally adoption is the one nobody put in the room.

Speaker B: And that's. You know what I think? I just thinking now, uh, listening to you, you know how in sales there's pre sales and there's post sales. But I think it's the same way with AI adoption. Let's say pre adoption. You want to have the enablement team look at what's helping true adoption. Not the vanity figures of they logged in, but actually is it in their workflow? Are they feeling comfortable with it? That's your pre sales group, that's your sales enablement group. They understand the metrics behind actual learning experiences being used in workflow. And then you have your post sales or your customer education, like can they take this further? Have we understood what their resistance is? Do we understand like the change management that has to happen internally in the company to make it much more enthusiastic and smoother before you're going out Right. So that's why I'm thinking sales enablement, customer education is where AI adoption should be owned. Because all of the go to market, all the revenue, as you said, it's about moving the needle, it's about closing deals, it's about, you know, all the paperwork that has to happen for the deals. Did you have a champion there? All those things? Is there a matter of urgency? Is there a set? No, they're not interested. Is their resistance, is there human resistance to actually using these tools? Are you addressing the fears of the people that they're going to get replaced? You know, like get guru just. He spoke about this, uh, uh, on LinkedIn, that he is making sure that anyone who's getting trained in AI and how to use AI will not be let go from the company because of AI replacing them. He's made that commitment. But many companies can't do that. And the reorgs are happening and we know what reality is. Uh, but if we take a step back and we see if we can get our salespeople and everyone on the team to use AI as an exoskeleton, that's going to make them fiercer in their work, then let's have the team that's going to know how to do that be responsible for it.

Speaker A: Right. I'm trying not to bury the lead of all the things we want to talk about, so I'm just going to jump right in and let's pick apart. We've got four talking points, four sections. We're going to go as long as it takes today because I think this is real important. And you know what, I'm in particular really excited about this conversation about four, is you're bringing back to the surface the interconnectingness that all of our teams that are involved in enablement and learning, right. They should be threaded. And I don't see this behavior working that much because, uh, go back to your point. Customer Ed is kind of a good lens for you, for anybody, because think about enablement. We're thinking about, well, how. Okay, I bring up the word calculus a lot. I don't want to scare anybody off with that term. I had a bad experience with calculus, um, but I learned some really important stuff. It is that there's the, the derivative and the integral. You know, the derivative is like, okay, where's the slope? Whatever. Okay, I don't care. What I care about is the area under the curve, right. If you draw a, ah, a sine wave or something like that, what's this volume where you Make a shape in 3D. What's that volume? All those formula that we learned in high school and elementary school came out of calculus. It's measuring something inside something, the impact of what you've done over time. And that's what we're always facing. Let's say we need to implement AI internally. Well, we also have to do it externally. And I've got one case where I'll talk about ROFO a little bit. I think that maps well. So, okay, let's start with topic. Um, number one. Customer education. Knows what resistance looks like, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. Understand adult, um, learning concepts. Right. I, I mean, I did my doctoral studies on education and leadership for change. And a lot of it was understanding what is the perspective of the person. Not of the seller, not of the. But of the person. Like, how are they seeing themselves within the company? How are they seeing themselves? How are they defining themselves? And that, that self definition is going to have to change a bit. Now that we have these AI tools, there are things that they felt that they were experts at. I was the expert and now they're being told, yeah, put that into a really nice prompt. And I do have this prompt glossary. Put this into a really nice prompt and let the AI do that. You go do something else that you can be more creative at. And they're like, do something else. But this is what I've been doing, so I think that's part of it.

Speaker A: Can I pause you for just one?

Speaker B: Please, please.

Speaker A: So I have some relatable experience sets that I want to use to prompt you. Eve.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: That I spent years at outreach and I got so deep into sales engagement, and now I finally understand that way better because it was a forcing function. And what I saw in that was, okay, customer education is going to break things down into what you talked about already. What is the human in the loop, what's holding us back? But also it's foundational. This is how the thing works. This is the use cases. And that's something I commonly seen this. Oh, let's sell this thing. Well, what is the customer even going to use it for? What are you going to use it for? AI is even a meta condition of that? Because. Well, I need to know. You just said something that was really important. Hey, uh, you go do something that you're really good at. Yeah, I know you're good at selling. What in the, in the context of a sales cycle are you talking about? Can you give me like one or two examples so that we have an anchor, then we can move forward with that, what are, what, what am I? What am. Like, I'm a, I always said this before, like I'm a diva salesperson. I'm the hot, I'm hot one. I'm, um, I'm closing deals left and right. But when you come in and I saw this at Outreach now we have a systemic approach to doing what you do. These people are like, whoa, wait a minute, I'm your top seller, you're going to ask me to change.

Speaker B: So this is, this is a concern and it's a legitimate concern. I wouldn't push back on and saying, oh, this is a person that doesn't understand that they have to move with the times and that AI is coming in. It's going to be like electricity change. It's going to be this huge revolution. These are legitimate concerns. They're not just about status and displacement or change aversion or fatigue of new things, but these are legit concerns. People are losing their jobs to AI automations and agentic AI. Right. So the idea is that you understand that relationship building still has a large part in selling and that the seller's responsibility is building those really essential relationships with the other customers, with the partners, with understanding how that even though there are these tools that are going to help you automate the meetings, the prep, it's still you talking like we're talking now, Dave, like we've kept this relationship alive for all these years. Because I admire your scientific mind and the way you bring that science into the work and makes the work such a high quality. Right. And it's not just about getting certified or understanding the basics. It's about those handshakes that happen in real life. That, that's why they're going to come to you when they have these choices. Oh, I could go to this other company, might be a little less, but I'm not going to get the service that I'm going to get from, from m. Dave, because I know him, I've had coffee with him, I've had dinner with him, I've, I've experienced other sales motions with him. You know, he's, he's a guy that, you know, I, I've watched Pearl Jam with him. Listen to it, you know, so, um, you know, it's the human and he's not scary to me. Right. He's a real person. He's not a automated system. So I think that the magic comes into the selling from these relationships that so far AI hasn't been able to replicate.

Speaker A: No, but it has put a lot of Pressure in. Because if I were, I'm going to lead you a little bit down the road, talking about your four faces of AI resistance. I like that. I think this is such a neat thing to get out in the world because I see it. We're seeing it from kind of opposing but symbiotic directions. So let me break it down real quick. Status. Okay. I'm an expert. We already talked about that. I know how to sell. Now you want me in my framing. I was looking at outreach. So we're trying to teach. Oh, uh, this is actually really good example, Eve. If you're. If you will allow me to. I'm going to use outreach as an example in a good.

Speaker B: Please.

Speaker A: Okay. Because if I frame that up. Outreach was a sales enablement, sales engagement platform that was designed to build an infrastructure and architecture around selling to drive faster, you know, deals close at a higher velocity to. It was using AI, uh, even before AI really started to become a thing. And you're disrupting that. Expert. I know how to sell. I'm doing really good. Or displacement. And is this just going to replace me wholesale? A plain. You know, I'm a jerk. Um, I. I'm not going to change. No, you can make me. I remember being on a call one time where, where, um, the customer. This is. I'm not even single anybody out because this is a good thing. Somebody says, well, why should I learn this? This is us training another team who is sales people internally to an extra other team showing this, exhibiting this behavior. I'm not going to do it. Or, you know what? We've done this 12 different times. We've had all these different tools. None of it works. It's bs. It was a big, big hooray at, uh, the sko, but then I didn't get support, and I'm a manager and everything dies. And that whole this AI resistance is bifold. It is internally and externally present. I'm trying to work on this external and this customer, Ed. But I get forgotten here. And then flipping the tables. A lot of those salespeople know, hey, what is. I'm on a call. What is, uh, you know, what's my objection?

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: What. What am I. What am I already just. You're fighting against all those. But I need to do it in a structural, scientific type way too. Leaving the human in the loop. So

Speaker B: I'll tell you a story that from Seagate, that. That actually, you know, it played out, and it played out in a good way. Right? So we. We transferred these, uh, sellers to become consultative Sellers, we needed them to sell systems and they were used to selling commodity boxes and we couldn't have that happen. They needed to sell in a different way. They needed to sell much larger systems instead of these boxes. And they didn't even understand what we were talking about. Data management systems, this is something I could put on the desk. And we were like, no, this isn't a data pool. You can't, you know, there are racks and racks of these. Um, and so what we did was we managed it by having them peer, peer help each other. Right? There was a lot of peer support. And we showed them, we put together a, uh, Salesforce dashboard, you know, an sft. And we showed that the people that had started leveraging the training that we used that helped them on that journey were really exponentially being more successful. And their business patch that we explained to them that they were now going to own it, it was like taking off like a rocket ship. And so they saw from their peers that the few champions that adopted it, we held onto their coattails tightly and we had them present it to their colleagues. Um, it wasn't just a top down, right, you have to sell this way. It was also their peers were telling them, you sell this way, you're going to make a lot more money, your bonuses are going to fly, you know, you're going to get into the president's circle, you know, it was worth it to them. And so the, the, the peer influence was very valuable in this case. And also that dashboard that they could see and also the top down, that the leadership really cared about it and they aligned. You know, I always thought I was going to have a tattoo align now. Right? And uh, that was going to be like. Because the alignment is the magic in my opinion, Dave, like, like what you're saying about this outreach, that they felt like they were experts and now all of a sudden they're being told that they're you're experts, but not what we want you to be experts at. And if you get everyone to a line and you open the tent as broad as you can, it really helps. Look, there's always going to be someone that's not going to join and they're going to go find another job. But if you want to move the majority of the salesforce forward, uh, it really helps to have, you know, champions within the group that show everyone else like, oh, it's worth the effort.

Speaker A: Yeah. And this is a real team effort too because. And again, we're trying to split, split between enablement and education and customer Education.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And there's a fine line there. But I'm working. I'm living this world right now. This is a big part of my job where I'm focused on, okay, how does this platform really work? And I'll go into our team meetings and say, well, what are the customer use cases? This is where I'll do what I call an empathy audit. And I go out and I talk to customers before building anything internal.

Speaker B: I love that empathy audit. That's just brilliant.

Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know where that goes.

Speaker B: You should do that internally also.

Speaker A: Well, actually, okay. When I was like, let's go all the way back to Gainsight when we were working together, I did that when I started. And what I mean by empathy audit is. And I think I'm really trying to return to this because everything you're talking about is human. Right. We're dealing with a crisis of morality and work right now with AI internally and externally, you need to build a bridge. So we're not working in a silo. We shouldn't be. But what you're talking about is, look internally, we mandate thing and take things. You got to take this training. Because this training. Well, the training might be garbage, too. It might be an AI slot put together real quick. It's got a couple decks in it. Somebody was talking. I can't quite hear them. They got a different accent and it's not landing. And now I'm frustrated. Um, for the customer education approach approaches, I use the empathy audit featured. Uh, okay. I am going to go talk to all of our sales team first and learn about what they're thinking from. About the customer. And. Okay, well, hey, you know, Jane, you're going to go out and sell this thing. What was your experience over three to five different customer engagements, positive and negative? Oh, you know, she tells me, well, I had this objection, and then, uh, something happened and I couldn't get to the customer because, well, the use cases that we were talking about. Let's talk about vast. Where I'm at right now. We have transcended a storage platform. That's why I liked you talking about Seagate. We're not just selling racks. We're selling a whole AI factory foundation layer for our businesses to completely transform what they're doing. And that's complicated. So a salesperson now needs to go to the table with. I know something not just about storage. Right. Yeah. I can rack and stack, talk about all this stuff. But now. Okay, well, Eve, I understand that you're. You have a farm of Nvidia you know, video cards that are ren a render farm for your animation business. Or, you know, you're breaking down videos from a, um, sports event and showing all these little things. But you, you're hitting up against time. You need to know about Kafka and you need to know about Kubernetes and like, oh my God, I'm already what? Right. And that salesperson having to know all that. Well, you don't. There's a push pull. There's only so much you have to. But it's all about how do we address it, how do we break it down and not just go close, close, close, close, close. And that's why if we bridge over and talk about adoption, you know, enablement and rev ops aren't really keyed into that. They're keyed into more of the uh, um, um, I'm focusing on revenue growth.

Speaker B: Right. The metrics and bottom line. That's all I care about is the needle moving. Am I closing more? Am I getting things done more rapidly? Am I getting on the board? Right, that's right. And, and what you need is to slow down the process behind the scenes. You need to make sure that they're getting their content right. If they need a glossary, is there a global glossary that they can link to and can they click on it and learn even more? And now with AI it's very easy to build that. And now you can just record the meeting. All the keywords that came up in that meeting, you put them into the glossary, you put a link on that to what they can learn about it. Bang, bang, bang. They've got it right when they need it. They don't have to hold on to all this stuff in their head. Right. And um, use cases is very similar to a glossary. If you have a set of use cases that also keywords that came up in the conversation. Oh, you're talking about this use case. Well, let me talk to you about the products that link to that use case. Then you're being very specific and you're also helping them understand. Oh, this is how AI can help me. I got it now.

Speaker A: Yeah. Specific to that. It's a breadcrumb I have here to pursue. Was at Atlassian. So at the time I was there we were heavily building our own AI tooling. Called it rovo. If you're lasting user, check it out because it's actually really cool. Can do a lot of things. The hard part about it come to us, hey, it's a mandate. You have to use this internally you use it for everything. Okay, but for what? Why? Well, we're selling this to customers. Okay, that's just wonderful. But I also have Claude, I also have OpenAI, uh, you know, chatgpt, I have whatever. Why this? Uh, and that's what the customer is saying. So when you start from that, okay, we're just gonna, we're just gonna grab like, we're in revops, we're enabling, we're gonna make everybody do it. Here's this mandated stuff. You know, I'm doing it. Customer education, you go away. Um, it didn't work. I mean, we were a bunch of smart people, we figured it out, but it was this, it was kind of chaotic and disorganized. What I would always ask in terms of customer education is, okay, well, what do we use this for? What do we use this for? Okay, well, what is ROVO good at? Let's stay on track with that and say you've got jira. Uh, everybody but a lot of people know what JIRA is. If you don't Google it, go see Kevin Lee's video from the last and answered don't tell you in a minute. It's, it's pretty powerful. It, uh, could be ticketing system, it could be managing your work. It's project management, tooling. What is confluence? That's knowledge, right? That is how you're building pages and stuff that's all integrated. And then you've got all these other peripheral type tooling that comes together. There's no power in it. Unless, you know, this is a system of work that I use for all of my business and these are the main things that I'm doing. So now it's the jobs to be done that leads into a certification. That's how I think. Right. I'm, um, coalescing use cases and things to do. Then when I come to you and you go, oh, oh, oh, this is cool, and then you're like, okay. But that didn't get in the way of me being a seller or it complemented, extended. It allowed my humanity to pull through by automating the BS that I have to do, like you were talking about before running reports. So maybe you can go a little bit deeper in that. Because some of the threads in this context is that there's a turf grab. Sometimes you've got mandates and, you know, we don't have any kind of guardrails. So

Speaker B: this is where, um, agentic AI is probably going to flourish. Right?

Speaker A: How so?

Speaker B: If you can connect with, you know, web hooks in the day but if you can connect your, your different uh, tools into a uh, smooth aligned platform, you can call it whatever you want but it knows to um, aggregate these different activities of what used to be jira, what used to be, you know, all these different outreach, what used to be outreach, um, alerts from conversational recording, um, and it, it's going to let you just type a prompt and then go through this huge database of information and pull out for you without your making so much of an effort. You, the seller, uh, you get the best use case to present to your, to your person, you get the best products that go with that use case, you get the pricing that's going to go with that and you get the next step that you need to do in the, in your specific sales process all packaged very nicely. Um, you know that is, that will be and is already for many the beauty of using leveraging AI in sales. Right. And so the question is who owns the alignment? Right? Is it and does it matter who owns it? Right. I'm just saying that I feel that the alignment of using these tools should belong to sales enablement internally and customer education externally. Because if it uh, belongs to Revops, they're not going to care about the alignment and the integration. They're just going to say do whatever you need to do to move the needle to close more deals and you want it to be a much smoother process for your sellers.

Speaker A: Sorry. This episode is brought to you by Parda IO Parda, uh, is a next generation authoring platform built for customer education. Okta Personio, Miro, Rytr and many other fast growing companies rely on Parda to stay in sync with product updates, build customer learning experiences and manage content at scale with Figma style collaboration, granular branding built in localization, an AI assistant, seamless skill jar integration and more. Parta lets you scale customer education the way it should be, fast, flexible and collaborative. To learn more, check them out today at Parta IO Calab. That's Parta IO CE Lab.

Speaker B: So I mean is that what you're expecting to hear? Are you interested in different.

Speaker A: Well no, that's what I would hope for because I know so many people in my network alone have talked about what we're broaching up or what we're hitting up against is kind of a terp grab where I don't look at my role in Customer Edition as ex, as external, extrinsic, separate, I look at as flow. That's very uh, it's very in the weeds for everything. But my mission isn't uh, no, I'm not going to own everything. We're all co owning stuff. But let's, let's take it back down to something manageable. When I approach for customer education, a new learning, uh, a new thing could be ROVO or something else. But what I'll do is break down and do a use case and a catalog, a job task analysis. I don't get that formal because I'm not building certifications most of the time, but I'm seeing what the lay of the land is. What is this thing? What's it used for, how is it used? What's it good at, what's it bad at, what data is behind it. And now internally, the thrust is, I always say, hey, I'm building content for everybody. Enablement. Don't go worry about building this product. Use case, customer style training. The material I make is for literally everybody. The customer.

Speaker B: You know what I've been thinking, you've got to think bigger now that you've got AI available. Okay, so here's my thought, here's my thought, right? We're like focused on the old way of looking at things a little bit in what we've been talking about. And I've been thinking there's some companies out there that they create these safe, um, playgrounds with really high fences so you could throw the ball in any direction. It's not going to go out into traffic. Okay. And those sandboxes are just letting people play with the AI tools that are available to them. And then, you know, everyone's got their own perspective and their own idea. So let them play as hard as they want in a safe environment and then come to the group, you know, maybe a hackathon day type of environment. Let them come to the group and say, look what I've managed to do with this, look what I've managed to build. Uh, and you know, the engineers can come and say, well, that's not going to work because of this and this and this, but I love the direction you're going in. I can build a tool that'll do that for us. Right? But unless you get them to play and be a little bit less caring and less scared of the tool, it's not going to take your job away. Come play with us. You know, um, you're not going to leverage the cognitive diversity that you can get. Uh, and, because like, fear stops that, right? The play and the fun and the exploration and the experimentation. But you want them to experiment and play and have some fun with these tools in a safe Safe way. So I think, I think establishing now these playgrounds with really safe fences is essential to, um, customer education. And you can even, you know, you could even do it with your customers or your partners. Right. It doesn't have to just be internal. So I think be kind of fun.

Speaker A: Well, in fact, some of that. Pardon?

Speaker B: I think it'd be fun to see what could come of it.

Speaker A: It is. I like that, uh, the element of play because. Well, let me give you another concrete example. More recently I was working to scaffold out a program where I'm redoing a whole instructor LED training, uh, rubric, right? It's nine modules and all this. It's really dense, really complicated.

Speaker B: It's a vast.

Speaker A: Yeah, nice one. Um, how am I going to break this down? Because really I've got to get it into jira. I sat down with Claude at first, or Gemini, one of the two, and I kind of scaffold out what I want. Then I have two different tools that I use. I use my personal tool, which is todoist for my todos, because it's very simple, affordable, easy to use. I can use it for everything. But for work I use jira. So what I was able to do is actually use both Claude and Rovo together. So Claude got my overall structure and then I said, okay, let's enable the connector to Atlassian Rovo. Right? And now I've got that integration built with Claude. Now Claude is talking to Rovo and Rovo is picking up the ball that I've already articulated as basically a CSV file with all things and all the dates and all the stuff. And then I'm in Rovo. Now I'm working with Rovo to put this into my work context, which is required of me at my work. And now I'm like, oh my God, look at how easy this was. And all of it happened in minutes. And now that is for me, when somebody showed me the light, I go, I get it, I can use this. I had to do this. This would take me all day. And now I'm moving on to the next thing that I need to get done. But now I put in some guard rails, I put in some safety nets. I've uh, you know, I built all the learning material and I got people together. I love the idea of the game, the jam, you know, um, this is cool. Okay, let's, let's move on.

Speaker B: And then. No, but, no, to take that even further, what you just did, put it into a framework that's repeatable that if I Have something in one unit, and I need to. How do I set up the linkage? How do I do this? Like, I want to make this into a skill for Claude or whatever platform. Or I want to make this into a compute for Claude so that I just do it once and then I come and I tell it. Do it for this other project, do it for this, you know, and so then you have this skill that's replicable, that the rest of your team can use for their advantages. Also, I think the more you start building that type of directory, uh, of capabilities, of compute capabilities, the more you're using your AI the way, you know we should be using it, right?

Speaker A: You do it. I don't know if you do it like I do. I kind of stumble through the first time. And then Claude will always prompt, hey, do you want me to package this at a skill? Looks like you could use this for this podcast. I have that. So when we go and we do a conversation, I have my transcription tool connected in, I take all those data sources and I produce a script and then automate all that. It's just. It's amazing.

Speaker B: And we haven't lost our creativity, we haven't lost our ability to play with these things. Right. And it's just, like, reinforces, oh, wow, this is amazing. Let's do more of it. So. Yeah.

Speaker A: Or, Or. And the other things are when people think, oh, well, it doesn't sound like me, doesn't look like me. What if her. Well, now you can build into your voice and, and your.

Speaker B: Brandon. Yes. The skill of your voice. I m. You know, it's a little creepy how well, uh, Claude actually knows me lately, but okay, I can remember that.

Speaker A: Yeah, it is a little creepy, but

Speaker B: I always tell it, you are not, you know, I give it its guidelines. You are not allowed to delete any of my files without my explicit request. And. And I say, do you remember this guideline? Like, I. I'll start that at the beginning of every project because, you know, there's these rogue. These news news, uh, articles about rogue deletions, and I want to make sure that mine doesn't do that. So I just give it a guideline and I say, uh, remember this guideline. Keep that in memory. And then I'll check every so often because there's also drift in AI, Right. If you don't go back and you check every so often, what's the guidelines? You're going to lose them, right? So you don't want this AI drift. You want to make sure that you're still safe, you're still in your happy place. You're still in a, in the playground with the high fences. So you got to check every so often.

Speaker A: I see what you're saying here. And these are the kind of. I think learning about AI is formatively different than a lot of things because of the art of the possible. That there's this imaginal space where you're saying, well, what do I do? Well, you can do anything. Well, what does that mean right now? In a few moments we talked about how I can build the guardrails for myself. I can make sure that I can use my tone. I can force and enforce an AI agent making sure that I'm putting my own guardrails in place. Or systemically as a company, we could have those kinds of things in kind of a master approach so things will go out here or we've firewalled things. We're only using the certain LLM. You know, there's so much going on here that I think this is one of the great subjects that we've been approaching in this year and see lab we've been talking about AI non stop.

Speaker B: And yet like my Four Faces of Resistance, they're really founded in human behavior. Even before AI it's how we all deal with changes always because we're human and we have to address that in, in the time of AI now. So that, that's how I feel about these things.

Speaker A: I think that's pretty cool. I want to get you talking about that more. But we had a couple minor topics that showed up. For example, showing up to be very meta about it. So if we, if we talk about again, we're we're trying to implement approach using AI or other softwares internally. It's challenging and maybe we can go back to talking about why some of the things that CE does differently than typical enablement approaches. And I think one of those is showing up, right? Hey, we've got a mandatory meeting. You can kind of come and learn about this AI thing, right? And then we come back and say, hey, how many people attended the training? Can you walk me through some of your thinking there?

Speaker B: Well, some of my thinking is that it's very easy to provide vanity metrics. Uh, you know, you got 80% of your team to show up and complete the training. But what does that mean in terms of the workflow afterwards? Again, it's much like sales kickoff. Everyone's rah, rah, rah. And then a month later no one's really carrying out because there was no follow Up. There was no management training to have these things. It's the same idea, right? What you need to do is not just have a single point of contact. You need to have the program, as I'm sure you're aware that, uh, you know, have a program that, that carries through either the full quarter or the full year and have touch points like even have like open, open office hours, Q and A on whatever topic that you presented so that people can come and ask their questions that they either didn't have time or they felt uncomfortable raising the question in front of their manager or in front of their peers, even feeling foolish, like they should know more about it, they think, whereas no one knows more about it. Nobody, nobody knows how some of this stuff works, to be honest. Right? And so you want to be supportive and available and open. So you want to have these multiple touch points instead of just a single one. And done. And it's so easy to do your work and then to keep clicking on the quiz questions or you watch the video or you've watched the training instead. It would be good to have proof, uh, of the workflow changing, right? Like how did you actually use it in your session? Like when the manager does their weekly conversation, have them bring up what was an example of using this tool in your workflow this week? Or how did AI help you? Or how did AI not help you? And bring all that up and then have a summary, right? You can have AI make the summary of that meeting and then disperse it and see what's happening in other groups. You know, it's just more transparency, more touch points, more reinforcement, you know, and the gap to reinforcement that still works in everything, right? The space reinforcement. So yeah, yeah, matter.

Speaker A: Well, maybe now one of the things I think I asked you when we were in pre gaming and talk in working out, uh, what we're talking about today was along that the lines. Okay, I'll just say it this way. I've seen so many places where I'm working with internal label mitt. Of course I'm exposed to that, right? Because I have to take the material too. And I have that same thing. Oh, go do this thing. It's mandatory. Okay, I go do it. I'm clicking through over here, but I'm also typing on my screen here. I've run into all kinds of people, including some enablement people before we said, oh, well, you know, I always was just go try to take the quiz first. And then if I pass it, I'm out, I'm done. And I go, wait, wait, you're enablement person.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um, you're saying that your, your default mode, operating mode is to take the quiz and never read the material. Yeah.

Speaker B: So this, this goes back to instructional design. Good instructional design. Like I have this framework seid, right. You want it specific, you want it engaging, you want it iterative and you want it designed for the purpose that it was supposed to be built for. Right. And what do I have here? Build a kick ass sales team. I talk about these frameworks in there as well. You want to, you want to actually have training that's going to engage the people that you're training and not just have them click off a box. Right? I know that's shocking but that is the problem. Like people use it to, to check off, you know those vanity metrics that I was talking about that you can say, oh, so many people did it. No, you actually want them to engage. You want. And if something's boring or something is, they already know it. Right. They don't need to learn it again. Then you want to iterate, you don't want to keep pushing out that same and, and it's too easy. That's what you were talking about before, right Dave AI slop that if you just put in a prompt and say this is the type of training I need and you're not super specific and contextual about in prompt, you're going to get exactly that type of training and they're going to say look how amazing the training was built in half an hour and it's already out there in the LMS and blah, blah. No, no, no. Find a way to engage, find a way to make it specific. And that's the beauty of this system because it has such a broad database. You can actually very create training for the younger or newer salesperson. You can create training for the intermediate. You can create training for the person on a journey to transform from selling this product to selling consultative, you know, using use cases in a different way. You can really customize the training. Now if you're not going to be lazy about how you do it.

Speaker A: That's right. There's a lot of good stuff out there. And one of the sponsors this year is um, uh, Learn Experts Leah which, and you've touched on a subject that uh, I want to go a little deeper on and let's again frame it in the terms of hey, I'm an enablement team. I'm um, sales enablement. I'm, I got, I have all these meetings and I have office uh, hours and you know what I got the really high percentage of people show up. Okay, great, you showed up. So where I think you're bridging to something that is a superpower of customer ed. What we've learned and you and I, when we're at gainsight, we have that DNA now it's outcomes. Did you get the outcome? I don't care if you showed up. I don't care if you, you know, if you pass test first time. Great. Because you knew it. Great. I'm done. I'm done. The outcome is I've done knowledge transfer. And not just that, I've, I've helped you flourish and adopt a platform. So if I just show up, it's one and done. I've, I've seen. And this is where I'm really trying to back off and make sure that I'm, I'm, I know a lot of people that work in enablement just like you. And I feel like even in customer ed.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: And enablement in fast uh, moving companies, we have a lot of people that fall into these roles because they like teaching or whatever, you know, so now. But it's the showing up mentality. Hey, you got all these people there. Great, great job. Go to the next one. Yeah. Hey, I made a course on this overnight and it took me 30 minutes and here it is. Great. Okay, go on to the next one. Okay, let's go down one notch. What were your guardrails on creating that content? Did you use good instructional design, adult learning? You've got all these gen zers now that are in sales roles and they're going to sit down. Yeah, they did it, but they were doing something else the time. We're not seeing anything downstream. Outreach was a good use case because we had these dashboards and stuff to be able for a sales manager, um, manager of SDRs or BDRs to be able to reflect on the work and the change and the, and the, and the little tiny motions that would impact your work day after day, month after month and make, make you be a consistent performer in a sales function. Right. But that was data driven.

Speaker B: And you know what's really cool.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Is um, you know how much people ah, hate role playing. Right. Because it exposes, you know, but now you can do individual role playing with uh, with a prompt, with AI and just you, you find out from the manager what the gap is for each individual salesperson and you put into that, you build that into a prompt for that specific salesperson to have a one on one role play with, with their uh, with their clock and they don't have to type it in. There's a microphone button. They can talk if they don't want to type it in. And, like, don't hide from doing the work. Like, it still requires work to create, you know, to design this type of training. But the, uh, ability, uh, to make it engaging, to make it real, to have it part of the workflow, to have the outcome change, is, I think, so much more available today than it's ever been in the past because you actually have to use them. You have to think about it. You have to, uh, you know, build it into your system.

Speaker A: Well, there's. Speaking of that point, there's a lot of really cool emerging stuff. There's systems around that. I know Bongo was one of the folks that. I talk with them a lot, but when you, when specifically sit down with Claude or ChatGPT, there's been many a time where I'll just pull up my phone and I'll go put it in a voice mode and I'll have a conversation, right? And all I. And people are doing. This is one of the biggest, I think, threats to customer education in a way, in a good way, is that if I can retool my learning materials, the canonical source material say, hey, this right here is all of the learning. I've vetted it, it's curated, it's up to date, it's current. Claude, go look at that. Everything's in there, including short videos, all this stuff. Now Claude can go and look at that and go, oh, okay, now I'm Dave. You know what? How do I like to learn? I like to learn on the fly. I like to get. I like some people to show me. I was from Missouri, right. Um, I can use my own learning approach now and have quad or chatgpt deliver to me in my preferred style. Bespoke learning.

Speaker B: Absolutely, 100%. You want to see an infographic, it'll design you an infographic. You want to see, you know, you want to see an Excel spreadsheet, you can get an Excel spreadsheet. You can do whatever is needed, uh, for your specific salesperson or custom, you know, whoever partner. Yeah, it's amazing that that's where the value is. And again, it goes back to making sure that whoever's working and creating this understands instructional design principles, understands adult education, you know, like choices that, um, matter to the person learning and that they understand. It's not a checkbox that we're really here to get them to a better outcome, to make them more successful and make the company more successful, to align with the business goals of the company and to bring them along.

Speaker A: Let's stick with that. I won't go deeper because this is really emblematic of where we're trending. One of the things that customer education we've always tried to do is, and I don't necessarily always see this in enablement. We begin with the end in mind. We go back to Stephen Covey. What are we trying to do? What's different about customer education than more traditional learning, Straight academic, L and D, whatever is where I hit with this was gainsight, gains. I was always outcomes driven. You're looking where you need to go, what you need to do, and getting the data and evidence to support and push us towards that goal. Did you go? Okay, well, in a traditional educational world, let's just think a classroom, I showed up, showed up every day. I took some tests, right, cool. Those are my metrics. But did I learn anything? Kind of a test might expose some knowledge. But what'd you do with what you learned? Now that's. This is where customer education comes in clutch. Because what my goal is not to check a box, say, hey, I had 15,000 people coming to webinar. All right, Dave, what do they do? What they do? What do they do next week, what they do the week after, what they do the month after. You know what? Because of where we live in tech, I have all the data. I have adoption data, I know what people are using. I have product usage data and I can map that to a human being, to a company. Now I slice and dice it anyway 10 Ways to Sunday. And then guess what? Now I have evidence of the work that I did, but it's slow and it's methodical, yet it comes what the converse of that is. Let's say I'm Jimothy and ah, I got to do homage to our native strange little, uh, raccoon. But, um, Jimothy needs to be enabled on something or needs to build enable material. So you go, you put a bunch of stuff into Claude or ChatGPT. You say, build me a course and it does. But I'm not an expert in education. I don't have any guardrails in place to say what good looks like. I don't have any. And the other thing I like to do is say, okay, we're building this content. What are the KPIs, what are the data points you're going to say that evidences that this team member actually picked up on and learned it and is now changing Their behaviors.

Speaker B: Exactly. You have to map it to the KPIs. And that's where it gets a little tricky because a lot of teams don't want to share their data. It doesn't want to, you know, they don't want to expose. They, they don't, they don't feel safe. Like it's a competitive feature, you know, but if you can convince them, if you get a champion on the team where you have some sort of working relationship, again, that human in the loop and you can share your excitement about how this is really going to help them, if you can map the outcome of the learning to their KPIs and show the growth, then you have a winning program and that's where you want to go.

Speaker A: Yeah, That's where I'll go back and assert. And we want more data points for. Our hypothesis is that we work differently in customer Ed, but we're complementary. If we imbue some of the mechanics that we use for customer ed into all of our enablement functionality. You know, begin with the end in mind, map to KPIs, map to business alignment. Look in the long term, not at, not at the number of courses I made. The other thing I don't see happen a lot is sometimes people that are in enablement consider themselves a subject matter expert. But when the velocity of change and the delta of our companies is so dramatically fast, that edge is gone quickly,

Speaker B: uh, it's a point of friction. There's no doubt about it. Speed and velocity. You have that triangle. Quality, speed, uh, resources. Something has to give. And if you're only focused on the speed, the quality is going to go down. There's no doubt unless you have very seasoned people in place doing the work and not newbies. And that, that's not how it, you know, that's not how it plays out usually, but. Yeah, but again, if you iterate, if you iterate, you can get to higher quality even if you started with something that's not so terrific.

Speaker A: Yeah, okay. We've covered a lot of ground so far. I think we have room for one more. We were talking a while back about a couple of things, the master glossary. And one of the things that I think is really in interesting it would be to talk about reward mechanisms. How do you get people to go deeper? Um, if I close the loop on ce, I keep thinking the role of customer education is canonical learning. It's making sure that we're fast, agile, iterative, and we're keeping the foundations of all of how things work and why they work. And what are the use cases in a library, right? And enablement builds on top of that and add junk to that is okay. Now we know how the product is, we know how to sell it. Now what is our approach today? What are the mechanics around that? But things like the Master Glossary, I think were just brilliant ads.

Speaker B: And then also I do the VIP day, I go and I take a look, like these audits, right? And I, uh, will focus on one of the gaps and at the end of the four hours of a session, they're going to have a, uh, playbook that can work for them, that they can take and actually follow and close one of those gaps. Like it doesn't cover everything, right? But it covers, as you say in your audits, that the spot that really needs attention, that isn't mapping to the KPIs, that the outcome isn't playing out the way the team needs it to play out. So the master Glossary idea can be in different areas, right? It's the same idea that you have a place to go to, to reference, that you need just in time, right? I mean, you're a big fan of that, right? Just in time knowledge. Yeah. And so, and, and it has to be relevant, it has to be new, it has to be updated, it has to contain actually what, what's available, not a vaporware. And so that when they're talking use cases with, with people, with your partners, with your customers, they can, they build this human relationship that they rely on you, that they know that you're going to tell them, oh, I don't have a solution for that right now, but this is what we can do right now. Um, and be honest about your roadmap type of thing. Or maybe you just tell them that's not our area of expertise right now, you know, and, and, and you've solidified a relationship, they're going to trust you even more going forward. They'll come back to you again. So there's many ways that I think that you can up the level of the quality of the customer education that you're giving out and leverage sales enablement to do it. So I think the partnership should, uh, be strengthened by the developments that are happening in the field. That's what I think, Dave.

Speaker A: So too, I don't think there's a real complementarity between our enablement and education

Speaker B: teams that I hope it keeps up, I hope it stays, I hope it grows, it should.

Speaker A: The fears that I have really are more the, I call it AI Slop, Dunning, Kruger, because you know what I mean, we're reinforcing or uh, we're really coming to market with all these things like hey, you can build a course in five minutes and okay, great, because you feed it a bunch of stuff and you let AI figured it out. But then what I'm seeing is the art of our craft. You know, the craft that I engage in is one of deep learning. And I think myself, I think I take it upon myself to actually learn the subject matter, which is not a requirement, but it's that added human value of okay, well I've done this too. I'm not going to deliver a course ah of the workshop and not have gone through this or really, you know, processed what this stuff means. And I'm m worried at times that we're skipping uh, a lot of things. Even though certification, you could throw a bunch of stuff at it and have it spit out questions, are they good? Are they legally defensible? Are you going to build a program that's working? Well, we're going to do a certification. You need to go that far. And I'm seeing a lot of that missed.

Speaker B: And the same like working with prompts in AI if someone's created a really good prompt, put it in a repository so other people can use it. Don't lose the stuff stuff like don't make everyone start inventing the, you know, keep much like the glossary, keep a glossary of prompts, subject and and I think exactly what you're saying. I, I, I can't, you know, I really agree with, with that perspective.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely share and move faster and do more and keep learning.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Keep learning, keep learning, keep sharing. I love those little, you know, JAM workshops or hey, we get on our weekly call and what was one thing you learned to do with AI the day you didn't know how to do before, for example? Um, was it last week? Yeah, it was last week. I was on a trip training uh, customers and um, I'd been working around using AI to take a spreadsheet where I've been maintaining my trainings right now. Um, but I built an entire app with Claude in hours. I did it iteratively and then I came out with this really cool, really slick, but yet still backed on that original spreadsheet interface for everybody in my organization to use. But I did the testing, I continue to do develop. I didn't get detached from it. I'm not working with third party and it was so easy to do. Well, it wasn't so easy.

Speaker B: It's amazing. It's amazing what you can build and you have to be willing to be humbled also by the system. And, uh, when I get stuck in something technical, because that's not necessarily my background, I take a screenshot, I give it to Claude and I say, what? Where did I always get really good advice?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's fun. I like that too. Okay, well, let's start wrapping up here Again to reconnect all of the things we talked about. This thread running through our discussion is internal. AI rollout is a learning problem. Wearing a revenue costume. You know, we're all fighting against the same thing as learning something that has never been here before and it's hard. Um, your suggestion that customer education is really good because we know what that resistance looked like and we know that training exposes it. You talked about your four faces, uh, of AI enablement. Uh, let's do this honest catches. CE doesn't really get handed this very often and we have to get to the table by proving impact on the things we do. We can't just walk into an enablement team go, hey, look, we have to be a team. So let me ask you, what are some things that you want to share with our audience that can help expose them to some of the things your resistance framework you've got?

Speaker B: Great. I'm happy. If anyone wants to reach out to me, please.

Speaker A: Yeah, please do LinkedIn.

Speaker B: Direct message me on LinkedIn and I'll happily follow up. Uh, I do talk about the four phases quite a bit and I do the VIP day and I do feel like if your teams, you know, Dave, the customer education team and the sales enablement team find some time to play together in this safe, um, playground that we've created for AI practice. They're going to learn to work together better because, you know, same like pick up basketball or something. If you're playing together, you're going to enjoy working together. And so I think that that could be a really fun way to evolve in the AI era.

Speaker A: I agree. Well, in the show notes and comments on LinkedIn, I'll thread your, uh, your book and your, and obviously point back to you on LinkedIn.

Speaker B: And it's a super pleasure talking to you. I can't believe we waited this long, but I'm really happy to share this space with you today.

Speaker A: Well, I am too because we've had, you know, a complimentary journey to learn the things we've done. I really, and this is the word to our audience, especially those that are practicing enablement element, the things outside of what we call Customer education. I really value your time today, Eve, because we're talking about these friction points between different teams which should be partnering together. We need to work a lot more together as flywheels for our companies and not get precious or try to grab stuff. It's not about that now with AIs going to eat our lunch unless we all work together to leverage it in a way that interconnects us.

Speaker B: Right. We have to do this empathy audit more often.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'll share that in the link too.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Okay. It's been a pleasure. If you want to learn more, want to connect. Eve, you want to learn about this podcast? We've got our website at Customer Education. Easy to remember. You find, show notes, other material. We're also part of the broader customer education community. There's so many people and ideas and things out there. We got some announcements coming to soon for Ding set or exciting and you won't want to miss out on. Um, so just follow us if you're on LinkedIn. Great. Special thanks as always to Alan Kota for amazing theme music. And if it helps you out, you can help us out by subscribing to our show and Apple podcast. Overcast, Stitcher, Spotify, Take a breath, uh, or your product of choice and please leave us a positive review.

Speaker B: We would.

Speaker A: We really wanted to expand and reach out to more people. We really value both the vendors and the practitioners and the leaders out there doing the work. So come talk to us, get on our show. Let's have great conversations like we did with Eve here. And to our audience, thank you so much again for joining us. Get out there, educate, experiment and find your people. Thanks everybody.