How Writing Transformed My Grief: Katie Huey's Journey of Healing & Purpose

All right, Katie, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here. Yeah, I usually. I don't do any, like, formal intros. There'll be a part for your bio on the episode and whatnot. But, yeah. Katie, would you mind just, like, sharing your. What was your inspiration for your book? Grief Cookies. Yeah, it started out as a blog that I had started in, actually, 2014, where I started writing. The blog is called 52 Beautiful Things, and I just started writing once a week about beauty that I found as I was living my ordinary life. I was newly engaged, and we had to postpone our wedding because my grandfather had died. And I wanted to something to kind of keep me going. And blogging was, like, cool and popular at the time. And so I started writing that blog, and I kept it going for almost 10 years. And I lost my dad unexpectedly in 2016, and that took my writing on a very different trajectory. It took my life on a very different trajectory. And the world changed in 2020 with COVID and so it felt like the need to beauty became more and more relevant, at least in my personal life, especially in a world that suggests otherwise. So I have always wanted to write a book, and I call myself, like, a hesitant grief writer. I like to say that I'm a writer with a grief story, not a grief writer. But as I was honing all that blog content down, because originally I was going to write a book about seeking beauty, I had several caring editors tell me, like, no, this has a really strong grief focus. So that is what launched the idea and gave the story some focus. And it's a series of essays, so it's not entirely one story. But for me, it was all about how do I find beauty when people are hurting? When I was hurting, when my life changed. Yeah, I thought it was so beautiful. And I think the part to me that, like, stuck out the most was it felt like even though it was like this collection of essays, it still felt like there was, like, this arc to it of just like. Yeah. Of like this kind of, like, beginning and then, I don't know, sort of expanding more towards. Yeah. More having more, like, gratitude almost. Is that something that you felt like you experienced in writing it or that you experienced over the course as time kind of progressed from losing your dad? Yeah, so I lost my dad 10 years ago. March. This year marked 10 years. And I think for me, the word I use is there's a softening. Like, the pain isn't as sharp. And I think there, yeah, gratitude is definitely a word that runs Throughout. But also, you know, you hear that kind of cheesy quote about, like, grief is love with nowhere to go. And maybe it's not cheesy, but that quote. And I think for me, I just learned to hold both. Like, I learned to hold the sadness and all the good things that my dad brought me, but, like, he was not a perfect man. None of us are. And Long answer. Yes. Gratitude and softening. Yeah. Yeah. What was your. From, like, from the book? It seemed like your experience with your dad. It seemed like you guys had a really. Just close and strong relationship. Was. How would you describe it? Yeah, I think my dad and I definitely found our connection points. He always showed up in the ways that he could, and he was very intentional. And so there are so many moments even still, that I just miss that presence. I'm the oldest daughter, so I think there's some of that, like, oldest daughter bonding with a dad. But he was a really simple man. Like, he loved black coffee and vanilla ice cream and old school dad jeans, you know, with his white New Balance shoes. Like, very simple. So I think we had a good relationship. There's definitely challenges in his history, but I think there's things that we're all doing. And now that I'm a parent, I, like, see him in such different light. And I wish he was here to talk about that a little bit, but. Yeah. What are some of those. What are some of those ways that you see, I think, perception changing. The most recent, like, I used to make fun of him because he would kind of rush us in the morning to get out the door, you know, and then I'd. He'd yell at me from downstairs. And I'd come up and I'd be like, okay, I'm ready. And he'd be like, ah, I just need to make a cup of coffee. And, like, as a teenager, that would drive me nuts because I'd say, like, why are you yelling at me? Like, I have five more minutes, you know, but now that I see myself and I'm trying to get two kids under, under four out the door, but I'm like, I get it. Like, I get the rush. I get the mental thing. And then you're like, oh, yeah, one more minute for me. So now I wish I could tell him, sorry for making fun of that. And he always, too, would, like, eat his breakfast over the counter. And sometimes I see myself, like, eating toast over the counter, like, trying to run around. And I never got why he didn't, like, sit down and eat, but I get it. Now. Yeah. What were, like, what are, what have been some of those things along your healing journey that have, that have been fruitful for you and that you would say, hey, this is for somebody who's just experienced loss. Here's what I would suggest. Powerful question. I think it depends on the stage that you're at. So for those who are just in the acute, like early days, my advice is always find comfort. And I think that's a thread of my book too. People are going to tell you a lot of things and some of it's helpful and some of it's. Most of it's not, at least in my experience. But in those early days, I really had to find like daily things that brought me comfort. And we all have different coping mechanisms. You know, some of them are not healthy, some of them are. But I think what I learned was just this ritual of like self care in a way that was really soft and simple. Like. And I, I think I wrote about it in one of the essays, if not, it's on the blog. But like, I kept Diet Coke at my office. I had a comfy blanket that I would bring with me. Places like what else did I do A lot, ate a lot of cookies. But I think there's going to be a lot of people demanding a lot of attention, especially if you're dealing with like the hard details of things. And comfort to me is different than self care. Sometimes, I don't know, in your experience, like taking a shower felt like a lot of energy expended. So just find ways to be kind to yourself. And then I think also there's people who are going to show up and support you and there's people who aren't. And I was more surprised by the people who didn't show up. Well, I guess I was surprised by both, but there were definitely people that I thought would, that couldn't. And so find the people who can and lean into those people too. What would your advice be? I'm curious about your experience. Great. Yeah, great answer. I. Yeah, as, as you were saying that like something that stuck out to me was I think this idea of, of comfort. I think there's some things that are good to find comfort in and definitely in being gentle with ourselves. You know, I think in, in my experience when I had gone through losing my dad, this was in 2021, I. My coping mechanism at first was just like staying as busy as possible. So I, I think I definitely needed that reminder to, to be gentle with myself, you know, But I think it can also kind of become. I think that dichotomy. Right. Of like comfort can also go too far because there are times too where I'd also seek comfort in things that were not healthy. Like I would go out and I would distract myself and I'd go out drinking or partying or doing things that weren't conducive to healing spiritually. And, and that's something that I think is, you know, I think you need to be able to heal spiritually when you're going through something like losing somebody, especially like a parent or any, a friend or child or whatever. So. Yeah, so yeah, that's the first part. And yeah, I'd love to dig into that too first. And then I'll. I'll tell you what else I think. I mean, that's a big part of what I think. Yeah, great. So, yeah. What are your thoughts about that? And is that like, what did you. I guess, what did you mean? Is that what you meant by comfort or did you mean something else when you say thoughts about that? What's the. That in terms of finding comfort in grieving, but also what's that balance of finding comfort and also having healthy coping mechanisms versus avoiding unhealthy ones? Yeah, I mean, to me what comes to mind is kind of Brene Brown's example of like one Oreo is comforting. A whole bag is like not, you know, and all of us are going to have different tolerance levels for different things. Like we all could do different behaviors in healthy ways and not healthy ways. I think it's easy to move from like self comfort to coping. And to me that's different. So I guess I don't. I'm trying to think, like how do I verbalize the distinction? I guess for me it's little, just little things that helped me stay grounded and like self soothed in a way. Again, that's not destructive. Like one Oreo, not, not the whole bag. And I'm not saying you shouldn't drink, I'm not saying you shouldn't party, I'm not saying you shouldn't be busy, you know, but all of these things that we do to make ourselves feel just this much better, we're all gonna have different levels of what the extreme is. And so I don't wanna speak into like. I think there's plenty of examples of when people don't cope well, you know, when comfort turns into self medicating. But I think for me it's more of how can I surround myself with things that make me feel more grounded, more at ease, more Gentle, more slow. Yeah. And my personality style, like I often say, if I could tell people something from a soapbox, I would just tell them to, like, sit down for a second. Like, we move so fast. Yeah. And in my experience, like, so my dad died in March, I lost my job in May, and then my husband lost his job in June or something like that. Like, I don't remember the exact months. It was all blur. But within three months, we had lost my dad and both of us had lost our jobs. So we had a lot of time to do nothing, which in some ways was awful. You know, I call that phase. Like, we literally would drive to my mom's house and like, sit and stare at the wall. Like, none of us knew what to do. And, you know, we got through it. But I think for me, and I just didn't move into over productive mode. And lots of people can and do and. Sounds like you love to stay busy. You know, sometimes that's people's advice too. But I didn't have work to dive into. I had like the anxiety of like, holy crap, we need to find some jobs. But there was lots of staring at walls. Yeah. Well, I think that I love that part about like sitting down and Because I found it in my case, I found that it was in my desire and staying busy and doing that stuff. Like, that's where it got to the point where it was so overwhelming for me, where I had to. I had to sit down. Otherwise I didn't know what I was going to do. Otherwise it was just gonna be too over overwhelming, you know, and for me, I was like, in that time, I was severely depressed. So. Yeah, I think that that is. I think that's a good piece of advice, you know, to sit down and to take a breath. Especially in our society, you know, where it's like there's so much that is idolizing busyness and idolizing success, and it's always you going and you have to do this, and you can't have any sort of thing that gets in the way of you getting to that thing. And so I. I think that's. That's really important that you emphasize that. Yeah. And. Yeah. So then. So once. So all right, so let's. Let's dive into your kind of your grief journey. And so let's. So at that point, you had lost your dad, you guys had both had gotten laid off. You're staring at walls and then what? So it seems like at that moment you had this sort of time to process a little bit. Yeah. So I Had this weird opportunity. My dad was an insurance agent and the person that acquired his business needed help right away and I needed a job right away. And so I actually went back to work for the person that acquired my dad's agency. So, um, so I got licensed as like an insurance person. The words are escaping me. But I was qualified to sell home and auto insurance. And I was basically surrounded by my dad's clients for about a year and a half. And there was a lot of beauty in that and a lot of weird pain. Like I had to answer the phone and explain over and over and over again that my dad had passed because people didn't know. And so we used to joke when I was a kid, like my first job was at his agency. My cousins worked there, like my. Some of my friends worked there. We'd say we put the family in American family. And so in this weird way, like my dad actually provided a job for me in his absence. And so I did that for a while until it felt like it was really not serving me anymore. And my husband was able to do a few random things and finally found his way back into his industry too. So that was kind of the first. Yeah, again, 18 months post loss. Like I was surrounded by his notes and his handwriting and his files and at the same time, you know, we're helping my mom clean out his closet and just all those logistics. So that was kind of day to day life. And I just kept writing. Like I've always been a writer. I would an avid journaler, but I found like after my dad died, putting pen to paper was kind of hard. Like it felt more painful, it felt more real. But I could type about it and publish on the Internet for strangers to read. So I don't know what that's about. I haven't done any therapy around that yet. But I just kept writing and then so, and then Covid hit, you know, and we were like four years post loss and the world changed again. So it sounded like having this outlet to express your emotions was very transformative for you. Yeah, I think it transformed my experience. It was a place where I could put things that I was holding that not a lot of people could really understand. I feel like I was one of the first in my peer group to have lost a person. And I would sit at like hospice grief groups. And I felt really young. Like again, grief is grief. But I felt very different than the 60 year olds that had lost their spouses. I found my way to a dinner party table, which was fantastic. Did you ever Do a dinner party table? No, but I've heard about the organization that doesn't. Yeah. I'm so sad. They're like sun setting this week. But that was a huge benefit for me too, just to find people who had shared stories of loss. And so I did. I was a host for the dinner party for a while. In terms of finding peers and connections. I don't remember your original question. Now I'm just rambling. Was it transformative? I think it helped transform the experience and, like, the practice of writing over the course of years. And like you said, the book hopefully captures a bit of an arc. Helped me look back and see my growth. I do think grief transforms, um, but I also feel like it's still shaping me. So I'm not really on the other side. Maybe. Maybe. Do you ever get to the other side? I'm not sure I'm there yet. Well, what. I think that's a good question to get into, like, what is the other side? How would you answer it? What's your experience been? I think when I think of, like, what is the other side of losing somebody? I think of like, how does. And this comes kind of. This was like my research question for my. For my thesis. And it was like, what is. Like, what does flourishing look like after experiencing bereavement? And so for me, in my experience, I would say that is a life that is more meaningful than it was before. I think. I think the words that come to my mind are purpose, meaning serving others, honoring my dad. Faith is a big part of that for me. I think these are kind of the big things that kind of come to mind. And I don't. I think there's also this kind of misconception. And this is also. This also comes up in the literature on this a lot. But in talking about post traumatic growth or flourishing, this idea of, like, self deception. Right. Or people deceive themselves into thinking they're doing better than they are. But. But I think it comes. It doesn't mean you're. You don't like, have. It doesn't mean you don't get up, you're sit. You don't get sad anymore. You don't miss them, you know, But I think it's. It's about, like, integrating that into how you live now, you know? And I think for me, like, losing my dad is different than, like, I just have one of my good friends just lost. They just lost a child, you know, A baby. Yeah. And so I can't speak on that experience. I can only speak from My experience. But to me, that is how I define that. And I. Yeah. So. So what do you think about that? I agree with a lot of the similarities. I think the word that stood stands out to me is integrating. I don't think it really goes away. I think it really shapes who we are whenever it comes into our life, if we let it. I guess there's plenty of people that. That don't. But there's also part of me that, like, I don't want to be on the other side. I don't want to get over this, you know, I think it's not as painful as it was. It's become more of a part of my life. My dad's birthday was yesterday, and I. I took my kids to go get donuts, you know, because it's Papa Roy's birthday, and they never met him, you know, but we talk about him, and my older daughter kind of knows of him. Um, so I think the pain changes. You know, it again, to me, the word is softens. And, like, how lucky I am to have that ache still, to want that presence still. So I don't know. I don't know if you. Maybe when you're. When you die, you get to the other side and it's over, but I'm not sure. I don't. I'm not sure I want it to be over. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Like, what is over mean? You know, it's like, oh, I just messed up my. I keep kicking it. Sorry. There we go. Yeah, it's. I think for. For that. It's like, what is it? I don't know. I think that kind of gets back to, like, this misconception that we have to get to, like, a certain point somewhere or certain level or it's. Or something, but it's like. I don't know. I don't. I don't think that that part is. It's not. It's not a destination, you know, it's like. Right. It's this journey that we're living every single day. But. Yeah. So what do you think about. What do you think about those themes of meaning and purpose? Is that something that you've experienced more of after the experience of losing your dad, or. What does that look like for you? I mean, I think there's a ton of making meaning that's present in my book. Um. I've often said, like, if my dad were still here, I probably would have written a book, but it wouldn't be this one. You know, like, it just wouldn't And I do feel like a different sense of calling in terms of being a grief advocate, speaking out in places like this, on forums like this, exploring kind of the hard questions. And I do feel gifted at putting words to things that people have a hard time talking about and helping people find their own words. And so in terms of purpose, you know, I don't feel like God was up there that and was like, katie's dad is going to die so that she can fulfill this purpose. I don't think it quite works like that, but for me, it's definitely become a through line, and it's something that I care about. I don't know. Are you a Harry Potter fan? Can you get a Harry Potter reference? I used to. The thestrals are the horses that pull the carriage up to the castle, and you can only see a thestral if you've lost someone. And I think that metaphor, at least for me, really makes a lot of sense. And, like, it's changed the way I see the world. It's changed how I have compassion for others. And I think it's, like, made me acutely aware of how vulnerable life is. And that's kind of terrifying if you start paying attention. So I get why people don't want to talk about it, but I think those are. You know, I've made a lot of meaning in the loss of my dad and trying to make sense of my own story, but how can I use that again to comfort other people and make us feel less alone? Because I think grief can be really lonely. Yeah. And I absolutely agree. I think that you definitely have a gift for putting words to things that people have a hard time articulating just from your book. Absolutely. And also, tell me more about this sense of calling that you have. How do you. How do you navigate that? How do you navigate your sense of calling? That's lifelong work. I don't know. My daughter just learned that little song. Like, what are the words? Like, hide it under a bush. Oh, no, I'm going to let it shine like the little Christian song. And I think about that a lot. Around what. What is my opportunity to share my story, to be brave and to click publish on a book or publish on a blog post and even show up on spaces like this that you're creating. I think there's a real temptation to be like, who am I? I'm just some girl in Colorado. Like, what am I doing? But I think there's, like, a steady drumbeat of the conversation is changing. People are continuing to suffer like that's just part of humanity and what is my role in that? So. And as a parent now, too, it's like terrifying. Like, oh, my gosh, you tiny little humans. I'm so sorry. But also, look how beautiful the world is. And so I think that's really more of my philosophy calling. It feels, I don't know, buzzing. Like there's so many possibilities. But I think there's also, if I'm paying attention, like, there's a lot of whispers or where the open doors are or, hey, you should. You should talk to Jason, you know, and just see what networks can be made. And I have a mentor who says, may my work meet the people who need it. And I stole that line from her because I'm not going to help everybody, you know, but if my. If my book can make one person feel less alone, then I feel like it's done its job. So. Yeah. What's your calling? I'm curious. I'm interrupting you. I'm. I'm not being a good podcast. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. What was your question? Do you. Do you feel that you have an answer to calling or purpose in connection to your loss? Yeah, great question. I think for me, a big part of. Yeah, I think, yeah. So the experience of losing my dad at the time, right, this was. I was very. I was in college, I was partying a lot. I was like, for me, everything was about just being successful. Like, money was my God. And. And that experience of losing my dad really broke me open and made me re. Evaluate what I was idolizing and prioritizing my life. And for me, that was the start of my sort of spiritual journey. And searched in a lot of areas for a while and searched intensely because once, once I knew, I was like, okay, this isn't going to work. There must be an answer that can lead me to how I can live a life again that's worth living. And so I studied different. I read a ton of self help books. I was like, all right, this is for the most part, crap, not really helpful. And then took psychedelics and I was like, okay, this kind of gives you some insights, but then you come down and you feel terrible. So I was like, this isn't it. And then I started looking at just like different spiritual traditions and read a bunch of different texts. I read Buddhist texts and Hindu texts. And because I grew up Jewish, so I had gone to. We had celebrated Passover and the Jewish holidays, but I didn't really believe in God. I didn't have a relationship with God at the Time. And so I was searching. I didn't feel like Judaism was a belief system that was going to help guide me through this, so I searched in other places and ultimately led me to. To finding Christ and getting baptized. And so I would say that that experience was really a catalyst in me starting my relationship with God. And then from there. There have been sort of ways in which I have felt a sense of calling in different things, you know, different assignments, if you will. For instance, like doing. Starting this podcast or. Or doing my thesis on post bereavement and flourishing. And so I would say there's different. And there's kind of different aspects of my life where I know this is what I'm meant to be doing. Yeah. So does that answer your question? Yeah, it's great. I love it. I think there's, you know, an element of exploring, just at least for me, when I see patterns that keep coming into my life, I'm like, I should probably pay attention to that. You know, whether it's my own internal dialogue or what other people, the feedback people are giving me or even, you know, like, what do I want to be doing? Like, I've always wanted to write a book. I didn't think it would be this book, but here we are. Yeah. So. Yeah. So is faith is a relationship with God? Is that something that's a part of your. A part of your life and your current walk? Yeah. So I grew up in the evangelical church. My dad was actually a minister until I was 8 years old in the Covenant Church. And my parents did children's ministry as I was growing up. Like, I was very much a youth group kid. So I've got the PK label for sure. And I think after college, like, I lived in Christian housing. Like, I had a lot of what don't I believe in college. And it was a real. I guess maybe that happens to a lot of people. But for me, kind of a crisis of faith around where do I stand and what's important to me? And I think, too, going back to that idea of comfort, like, when my dad died, I had people be like, aren't you mad at God? And I remember saying, like, no, I'm. I'm not really mad at God. Like, I'm mad at the situation, but I want to find comfort from God. I want to find comfort from a higher power. Like, I want to believe that I am not alone in this. And so I think it was actually an opportunity to kind of return to some of my roots. There's a path or a passage in the book where I'm talking about Easter Sunday, and my dad used to, you know, he used to yell at us in Greek like, Christ is risen. And we had to respond in Greek. And. Well, we didn't have to, but it was kind of a thing that we did. And so I think for me, there's a returning to that source of power, like that source of love, that source of connection. And I have a lot of questions about faith. I have a lot of questions about our current state of the Christian church and just the way the world is. But I think, for me, absolutely, like, I believe we come from a source of love. I believe we'll return to a source of love. There's a lot of things we do as humans that get in the way of that. But I didn't want to feel lonely or doomed or even that God had, like, smited us. I don't know. There's a lot of different ways you can apply that, but that's how I'd answer that. So do you still. Do you still believe that that is. That that source of love and truth is Jesus? Yes. And I don't think it's just Jesus. Yeah. So I. I don't think Jesus is capital T, truth. Like, I think there's a lot of ways to experience God, but that is what makes sense to me. So that's what I. What I'm familiar with. Yeah. So, like, what. So what would some of those other ways. What. What are those. I mean, I think people who are practicing different religions can experience God. I don't want to say that they haven't experienced love or experienced, like, divine guidance, and this might be unpopular, but I. I guess in my own questioning, I just don't think God is that small. Like, I think God can meet people where they're at, and I think Jesus is a way to do that, you know, and a connection point. But for me, I still have so many questions, and so I'm continuing to explore and lean into those. Yeah, I have a lot of questions, too, in my, you know, and considering now that I've only. It's only been two years since I've been baptized, you know, so basically a baby Christian, a toddler Christian, terrible twos. But, like. But I know that the text says. I know that Jesus says, like, I am the way. I'm the truth, I'm the life. Nobody can get to the Father except through me. So. So what do you. What do we make of that? I just don't think Jesus wants us to be that literal. I think there's room for grace. I think there's room for mystery. Yeah. And I don't have a Bible verse that backs that up, and I'm sure there are plenty of Bible verses that could counter it, but I just think God is bigger. Yeah. Yeah. And I. From. From my own experience, too, you know, it's. I've. Even when I didn't believe in God, I still. I can see what you're saying because I. I believe that I have. Actually. I don't know if I've experienced him before I believed in him, but I. But I knew that looking back, like, I could see that he. Like, his hand was over me and he was. He was guiding me and protecting me. But. Yeah, I. I don't. I don't know. So you. So you think that people who, who don't believe in. Who don't believe in Jesus can still experience God? Yeah, I do. They might not be aware of it or seeking it or in tune for it, but. Yeah. Short answer. Yeah. No, that's. No, that's. That's. Yeah, that's totally valid. Yeah. How so? Like, what is. Like, what is your. How does, like, your faith and your belief, like, play out in your life now? I think we're really at an interesting point in humanity. And for me, as I think about what I want to both focus on and teach and instill, like, we have two little lives that we're stewarding. I think, again, it's. It's hard conversations about love. It's hard conversations about grace. It's hard conversations about what is right and wrong and how do we forgive and how do we put others ahead of ourselves or at least as equals of ourselves. And how do we care for the planet? Like, how do we slow down and pay attention? And so, again, I think there's a lot of parallels in terms of gratitude and appreciation. And you know the other word that comes to mind when you're talking about others experiencing God? Like, to me, there's so many opportunities for awe, and I think that's a through line of our. My book too is like, what are the beautiful things? Like, there's this quote, like, everything is horrible and it's so beautiful. And like, that just feels so real right now. And maybe it's. We have so many opportunities to consume negative stories and negative truths of the world, and I think the beauty is quieter. And so for me, again, going back to calling, maybe you're helping me articulate. This is like, what is our invitation to love? What is our invitation to beauty? What is Our invitation to forgiveness. And I think for me, that's Jesus. That's what Jesus taught, and that's, you know, but with. That doesn't come without boundaries and responsibility and accountability. And it's complicated being human. But I think that's how I would answer that. Yeah. Yeah. So walk me through, like, do you have, like a. Do you have, like, a practice, like a spiritual practice, or how do you focus on deepening your relationship with Jesus? Don't. Right now. I mean, we are not going to a church at the moment. We've kind of taken a break since. Since COVID I think we do our daily gratitudes at our dinner table, and we do our prayers with our daughters. And I think it's that. Asking that question of, like, did I do enough today? And what is the invitation? And I guess in terms of practice, like, I think there's silent prayers and pleading, asking for guidance, asking for provision, like being grateful for provision. So to me, it's more like habits of just how we go about our day instead of, oh, I spend 20 minutes reading my Bible every morning. I'm just not in that stage of life right now. Yeah. And some, you know, I've had seasons like that, but that's not where I'm at right now. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that kind of comes, you know, it's like asking those questions of, like, what to do. I think that is really where our calling comes from. Our calling. Our assignment. How else can you know? Because I can say, oh, I think this, or, I think God wants me to do this, but how can you really know unless it's confirmed? And so, yeah, I think that that's something that I am constantly seeking. You know, it's like, is that, like, what's my assignment? Where do you want me? And I think my problem, my. My biggest problem. I have a lot of problems, but my biggest one is that I'm. I can be very impatient. And in my prayer, that's. That's something that I feel that the Lord has been speaking to me a lot lately, which is just like, just be patient. Just wait. And. Yeah, I think that it's. For me, lately, like, my journey has been a lot about, how can I. How can I accept that? You know, and what do I do in that time? And to me, I think about the parable of the virgins with the oil in their lamp and just having the oil in their lamp so that they're ready for when Jesus returns. And so I think that that's. That's a big part of It. And then also like just continuing to read scripture, you know, I don't read my Bible every single day, you know, like, I try to be disciplined about it, you know, but I mean there's some days where I just, I just don't do it. But also reading scripture and being encouraged by the different examples, you know, like when Moses see I'm being Jewish, I'm like, Moses, he's a Jewish guy. We've got our roots. Yeah, I think of Moses and it was so he had, it was 40 years, you know, before he led the Israelites out of Egypt. And for Paul, it was, I think it was eight years from when he had encountered Jesus to when his ministry started. And for, I mean the list goes on and on. Joseph, he was in, he had this dream about. And then he gets thrown in jail. So it's like, there's all, it's like this, this is a common theme in, you know, in scripture where it's, it's just, it's being patient, you know. And so yeah, I've been trying to learn that. And that's, that's something that is, it's challenging, you know, especially coming from a culture where it's like, let's do it now, let's do it now. You know, and especially, as you can see, that was my initial way of kind of coping with grief is go, let's go, let's say. But I think for me the most fruit has been in learning how to be patient. And I think that's going to be a lifelong journey for me. Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Well, maybe it'll get easier, but maybe not. Yeah. Yeah. Well, do you have any, do you have any advice on that? Like what would you say about patience? You know, I think you, it seems like you have a lot more experience than me in that area, especially with little children. So with self regulate, that's self regulation. I mean, patience is in there too. Advice on patience. I was. No, not something profound. I think one of the phrases that I return to often in many different areas of my life is just too little words like not yet. Like, that's not clear yet. Not yet. And that doesn't mean never. It doesn't mean I shouldn't be doing this. My mom would always tell us when we were kids, like God can't move a parked car. And I think about that a lot, like what is our invitation to co create with the spirit? Like co create with the universe. Because God can't move us if we're not willing to move. And so, but you know, like, if you don't have the key and you don't know where the map is, and, you know, like, you also need things in your life to equip you for whatever might be waiting for you around the bend. So I can say in my personality style, too, like, I get frustrated when people are like, if you knew now what you knew in three years, you know, like, you'll understand why you have to wait. And that might be true, but that doesn't make me feel better in the moment. And someone was asking me that, like, what I said. That would just make me angry at the person. Yeah, exactly. It's not really helpful. But I do think what. I guess what helps me is trust that your life will grow you into the person that you need to be. Yeah. If you're willing to let it. And sometimes that can be painful, and sometimes it's rewarding. There's another essay in the book about the mountain metaphor. I spent many years at a church camp. You know, around the mountain metaphor. You got to climb the mountain to see the beautiful view. But I think the other side of the hike is you got to come back down. And our culture does not talk about both the climb and the ascent. Like, what are you learning? What are you taking with you from the beautiful view? So I guess my advice around patience is, like, what can you glean at every sort of every point in the process? Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Take what you like and leave the rest. But so how. Like, how do you. How do you feel that you are honoring your dad? Oh, I hope. Well, I think. I think one of my proudest things is we do dance parties in the kitchen with my daughter and my dad, when, like, he was at his best, he would do that with us. You know, like, there's just little parts of him that I want to carry forward. I think there's a reverence, too. Like, my dad was a pastor. He was really good at seeing people. So even though he became an insurance agent, like, his boss would often say, like, you got to spend less time on the phone with people. Like, you got to hang up and take the next. He's like, I'm saving souls. Well, and it wasn't even about Jesus. It was just like, who are you? How are you? What is life teaching you? So when I think I'm at my best is I. I can look people in the eye and really say with genuine care, like, how are you today? He was so good at that, and, I don't know, just Little rituals. Like I was thinking the other yesterday, because yesterday was my dad's birthday. Like, I gotta find another way to honor my dad that's not just like food related because then I'm just eating in his honor without him here. And it's kind of weird, but he loved little snacks and things. So. Yeah, those are a few that come to mind. Yeah, I found in my research because, like, I'd surveyed seven. It was a small study, but seven people who had identified as flourishing and had experienced close loss. So it could have either been a parent or a friend. Yeah, either a parent or a close friend. And in almost all of the cases that theme came up, they were all actively honoring their loved one in some sort of way. These are people who. Who are also who identify as flourishing. And I thought. I thought that that was really interesting, you know, because it's. I think it's. It comes back to what you said about integrating and. And, yeah, and for me, I think about. I'm like, how are ways in which I honor my dad? And I think for me, I think a big one is he was very. He was a surgeon. And he was very precise. He was very precise. He was very analytical. He was very detail oriented. And he was also a drummer in a cover band on the weekends. Nice. And he was. He was like, very technical. And so I think that that is number one. You know, it's like when. And he would always. When I was doing my homework as a little kid, if it was ever messy, I would like, start erasing it. And he'd be like, no, start over. And he'd give me a new piece of paper and it would drive me crazy. It'd make me so angry because I just wanted to get it done. And I'm still like that in a lot of ways where I just want to get it done, whether it's at work or whatever, you know. So I think for me it's about how can I really take pride in the work that I'm doing, you know, and putting. Putting this forward, whatever it may be, whether it be school or at my company or whatever, and say like, this is really. This is like my best. This is. Yeah, this is my best effort. And so I think that that's number one and two, his love for music. He loved music. And I found that when he got sick, I really got into playing guitar. And I had always kind of played, but like, just getting through it, you know, it comes back to that again where it's like, oh, it's getting through it. I'D set my timer as it hasn't been 15 minutes yet. I'm done. But when he got sick, I. It really was about, like, playing things that I love to play, you know, playing things that I love to play. And. Yeah. And. And enjoying playing for other people, you know, And I think that music is really powerful, especially when you love what you're doing, you love the music that you're playing. I think that that really comes through in. In anything, but especially music. So I think that those have been the. I think the big two ways. And I've also noticed, too, like, as I've gotten, we had a more complicated relationship, like, prior to him getting sick. But I think now the more. The more further out I am, the more I can appreciate my relationship with him and accept his shortcomings, you know, because we all have the shortcomings, and I'm probably going to make many of the similar mistakes that he made, so. So. Yeah. Cool. What would your dad tell you about your desire for urgency? Like, what would he say about your patient question? It's interesting because I have, like, two different answers, and, like, one was like, his. I think, when I. Before he got sick, I think he would be very. Because he was like that a lot, you know, I think in some ways, and he would get impatient. But with me, when I was. When I wasn't being patient, which was like, come on, you're gonna tell me to be patient, but you're not being patient. But towards. Really, like, towards the end of his life, he was really, like, transformed by his, I think, acceptance of death, you know, and accepting his fate. So I would say that. I think that version of him at the end would have been really. I think he would have said it, like, really lovingly, you know, like, just, hey, it's all gonna work out. Like, there's no. There's no rush to get anywhere, you know, like, you're doing great. You're doing great work. I'm proud of you for working hard. But, like, there's. It's not. It doesn't need to be that urgent, you know, it's not. Nothing's that urgent. Sure. So I think that that's what he'd say, and that's a great question. So I appreciate you asking that. Yeah. I have a friend who, when I text her, she's like my grief pal. You know, she's always like, oh, what would your dad tell you right now? So I think that's another way just to honor him and bring him into the fold. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I think there's something really powerful about like reflecting on that because it's like the relationship, you know, I think the relationship and like the emotions that we have in those relation. That relationship is very. I don't know, it's with us forever, you know, like you can always think back until you die. You will always be able to think back about your relationship with your dad. And so I don't know, maybe that's your next book. I don't know. I know people like, what's the next one? I'm like, well, I just published a book and had a baby so I'm taking a little break. But we'll get back to writing eventually. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe it is around like these sort of like a daily devotional around giving people these like self reflective questions around their, you know, like a grief. A grief devotional. I don't know. All right, well, when it happens, I'll adjust. You can take it and run with it. Yes, exactly. You can write the forward. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Well, yeah. Do you have any. I mean that was, that was a really enjoyable episode and I didn't, I didn't, I didn't. Yeah. Usually like prior to the episodes I'll have like, I try to leave this part behind, you know, Like, I try not to have a sense of where I want it to go, you know, because sometimes I can think that it there, it'll go a certain direction, you know, And I find that like. Yeah, I find that. I mean, or at least this time I found that was like very, I don't know, I was very pleasantly surprised, you know, with how the conversation went. Good. Feels organic and good to me. I'll put the book cover up just so you guys can see it. Do a little self promo. But that's grief cookies and other comforting things. It's available wherever books are sold. You might just have to ask for it because most people haven't heard of it yet, but you can help with that. Yes. Is it in, is it in any bookstores? So it's in the IngramSpark system so bookstores can order it. It's in bookstores here in Colorado, but it's available on Amazon and bookshop.org as well. Okay, awesome. And then you'll. We'll get your socials and people can find you on what, what, what sort of platforms are you on? Yes. So my website is just katieki.com. i'm on Instagram @52beautiful things 5. Two beautiful things and those are the. Well, I'm on LinkedIn, too. People can reach out to me there if you want to, but in terms of content generation, that's where the magic happens. Awesome. All right, Katie, well, thank you so much. And we'll end it here. Yeah. Thanks for.