Episode 14 - Psychological Safety as Priority with Janko Kotze

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to career launch with Javille. And I'm your host, Javille. So in 2012, Google did a, uh, study, right. They wanted to find out what makes a very high performing team. What are some of the traits of a high performing team? And they found there were five important things to a, um, very high performing psychological safety, dependability, structure and clarity of roles, the meaningfulness of the work and the impact of the work is being done. But they actually rank psychological safety as the number, number one key trait. So I'm curious why that would be the number one trait. So today I invited someone like halfway across the world. I think almost halfway across the world. I have Yanku with me. Hi Yanku.

Speaker C: Good afternoon, Javille. Uh, yeah, it is literally halfway across the world. Yeah. Really great to be with you. Thank you.

Speaker B: Yeah, maybe just let the listeners know, like where are you stationed right now?

Speaker C: So halfway across the world from Joville is stationed in, um, Johannesburg, sunny South Africa.

Speaker B: So maybe just to give everyone a little bit of background about Yanku. So Yanku is, uh, an industrial psychologist and he has developed and designed programs for over 50 organizations talking about team development, leadership development, talent management and organization development. And he has delivered many keynote presentation. He has his own company, Human Interest. Maybe I probably didn't do a good job introducing yourself. Maybe just walk us through a little bit more than what I've shared.

Speaker C: Yeah. Jamil? No thanks. Thanks for that spot on introduction from a summary perspective. I'm an industrial psychologist by profession and what that just basically means. I concern myself with human psychology, understanding human behavior and how that plays out in the workplace. Across the world, there's different terms. Some regions talk about an organizational psychologist, some regions talk about a work psychologist. But it really is understanding human behavior and how that plays out in the workplace from a productive or a counterproductive perspective. Yeah. So my firm is called Human Interest. We are a specialist consulting firm. I do believe that we are one of the top industrial psychology firms in South Africa, having also two years back been awarded by and recognized by peers in the industry as the leading industrial psychology firm within South Africa. So the firm is seven years old, so you can probably still call us. We're still relatively young. And before starting Human Interest, I was also with two global consulting firms in the form of Accenture and PwC or PricewaterhouseCoopers. But seven years ago, I just felt that need to move from an oil tanker to a speedboat. The level of bureaucracy and red tape just didn't suit my own personal preferences to move fast, do things different. Didn't necessarily wanted to wait for approval to just engage with a client, because being audit firms, there's a lot of things that had to be approved. And we started human interest. And you are fortunate to go from strength to strength. What you have positioned there is what we focus on. So we have our own flagship program that is called our elite Team Program. Psychological safety is actually one of the components that we do assess teams on and that we do a lot of development on. Uh, so Project Aristotle was one of the sources that we consulted when we designed our program and model. But that is something that I'm personally really passionate about, is teams team development, leader development, and specifically the concept of psychological safety. We spend so much time at work, it's always better that it's an environment where you can be your best, and not only be your best, but where you can be yourself as we can be. There's, uh, a bigger chance that you can actually be your best.

Speaker B: Before we go into that, the importance of the psychological safety, I think for a lot of listeners out there, they may not be very familiar, right? Because unless they read about Project Aristotle or they're in the HR space, or they're, uh, in the IO space, some people may feel like psychological safety seems very fluffy. It's this warm and fuzzy feeling that you can't touch, you can't hold on to it and all that. So what exactly is psychological safety? Are there some elements that people can pinpoint?

Speaker C: I'm first going to start off with, true to being slight, scholar by heart with a little bit more of a theoretical definition, um, and then just use a practical example. So I can't say the father of psychological safety, because it's a lady by the name of Amy Edmondson who coined this term. And if you want to break it down to its most simplest terms, it really that belief, that experience, that within your environment, within team environment, your work environment, you won't be punished or humiliated for speaking up. So let's say you're in a meeting, you've got an idea, you've got a question, you want to raise a concern you actually made a mistake. If you find yourself in an environment where you are hesitant to ask a question in a meeting to say that, sorry, my bad, that's my mistake, you most likely don't have psychological safety in there. So psychological safety is that environment where you feel comfortable to admit mistakes because a mistake is a learning opportunity. It's where you accept one another for who you are. It's where you really feel comfortable being yourselves. And you're actually encouraged to try things and do it a little bit differently. Okay, so think about your house, uh, where you live, let's say maybe with your family, with your partner, with your spouse, kids at home. And I'm going to say in most homes, um, I don't want to generalize. In most homes, that is where you feel safe, you get home, you can be yourself, your family members accept you for who you are. That is the type of environment and feeling that should be in place in my opinion, in our firm's opinion, in every single organization. If you do experience that within your immediate team, in your work environment, you most likely closer to a point of having psychological safety within your team. So I do hope that sort of gives it some justice. A little bit of theory. But thinking about that, being at your home, um, with your friends, being yourself, that is what it feels like and what psychological safety is.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love the point that you talked about. Able to bring yourselves, uh, to work. I think this of the concept that a lot of my podcasts have talked about, where my guest was speaking about. It's not so easy or straightforward that work is work and your personalized personal life, like, uh, you can just cut it. So clearly the fact of the matter is you spend one third of your life at work, you are bringing a portion of, if not whole of your identity at work. It is very tiring if you had to switch on and switch off button in now when you step in and out of office. Yeah. So, but why is it so important? Wouldn't it be m more important about revenue generating, about productivity and all that? Why is psychological disability safety so important? What would happen if we do not have that?

Speaker C: Well, so that can be a very long answer. Okay, so if we think about what is the opposite of safety? The opposite of safety is danger. So on the one side we do have psychological safety, which is in a nutshell, that type of environment that I described. On the other side, there's a danger environment. And no one in my view would deliberately seek out dangerous environment. Except you're like an adrenaline junkie and you want to do something fun and exercise, but you can't stay in that state for long periods of time. So what is a, uh, psychological dangerous environment? Look, that is an environment where you are scared, where you are afraid of making mistakes. That is an environment where if there is a mistake, if something does went wrong, people just want to attribute blame. They, uh, are, they don't want to solve the problem. They will spend more time trying to find out who's fault it is that actually fixing what went wrong. It is an environment where just one person does all the talking. Everyone else is just too scared. You know, you'll have a meeting after meeting about what was not said in the meeting that should have been said in the meeting. It's all those things that corridor talk, the more corridor talk and all that to this there has to be informal information flow. But that is psychological. It's a dangerous environment. So that is not the space that you want to be in. Um, you said, look, but shouldn't we concern ourselves with revenue that is an output. Okay, so if we think about the process, that is an outcome. That outcome only happens if there are certain people behaviors in place within an organization. Now, there's been extensive research done on the positive outcomes of having a psychologically safe environment. There's increased communication, there's better communication at an, uh, intrapersonal and an interpersonal level. There is higher rate of error reporting because people are not scared to say that I made a mistake. They'll say, I made a mistake, they will fix it and they will move on. Um, so you most likely more likely to identify risks, address the risks. People are more comfortable to make suggestions about process improvements, policy adjustments. A psychologically safe environment is highly correlated with more innovation, with creative thinking, with risk taking. People are more engaged, they're more motivated. We all know what the research says about engagement and performance. There's a direct correlation. The higher engaged you are, the more likely you are to perform. People give feedback, they seek feedback. Their health and well being is increased. So there's this absenteeism. There's also less presenteeism. So presenteeism is I'm there, but I'm not there. And all of that put together will ultimately lead to higher performance. So the focus, in my opinion, should not be necessarily on the outcome that's an outcome. It, uh, should be on the process to get there. One of the most important processes that leaders and in our opinion, every single employee has to focus on is creating a safe environment.

Speaker B: When you say about all this, right. I remember there was this interview done by two of my favorite speakers, Oprah Winfrey and Brene Brown. And they were talking during one of Oprah's episode and they say it almost feels there's a safe space for you to fall. You, you know, that you're not judged, you feel comfortable, you feel safe, that, uh, someone's gonna have your back. I have a question, and this is just maybe really off our structure. How do you go, um, now that Covid has changed the way we work, right? And we talked about people, about remote work, we talk about people having flexible work arrangement. Is psychological safety even more important in that post Covid era? And my next question is then, how do you start building this kind of psychological safety, especially in a world where right now it's very decentralized, right? You can have colleagues or your peers or your teammates or your reportees, just across the world, different time zones, and you don't get to see them often, maybe even if you're in the same geographical location. So how about you understand these young clues?

Speaker C: Yeah. So it's a interesting, um, question, Javille, in terms of is it more important now than pre Covid? And my view is no. My opinion is that it is and should have been just as important prior Covid than it is now. I think what Covid did is it just served as a bit of a spotlight on, um, exactly how important it is. And it has revealed and exposed organizations and leaders that do not create psychological safety or that don't deem it to be important. So still, in my opinion, as important as prior, it, however, uh, has exposed culprits. What has, however, changed to an extent is how you create it. In the past, if everyone was present in the office in person, you went about a certain way in creating it. You need to just tailor your approach slightly. If half your team is in person, half, um, is virtual, et cetera, et cetera. But again, that isn't actually you. If we look at multinational organizations, they still exist. They existed pre Covid. They already people were to a large extent leading a hybrid team. I'm leading a team, let's say, for instance, that's based across, um, the EMEA region. Different time zones, different locations. Nothing has changed for them. But what has happened is how you go about establishing it should be a little bit different. There's many ways in which you can. If you read a lot of literature, people will probably say, and you'll probably read that no starts at the top. It's the leader's responsibility. Yes, that's true. But we maintain a view that it is not just the leaders or a team leader or supervisor's responsibility, it is everyone's responsibility. Uh, everyone can contribute and should be contributing towards creating a safe space. It's not just your leader that's going to have your back, it's going to be the colleague next to you that's going to have your back. But if they're not on board, if they don't think and realize they need to have your back, they're not going to have it, they're not going to support you. So one of the first things that we recommend teams do is, and I'm still surprised that where are we now? Two odd years into Covid teams still hasn't really defined what it means to be part of this team. What is my team's purpose? What is my way of working? What is accepted, what is not accepted? First thing is you need to align on that. Yes, this type of environment is important to all of us. If you have one or two people that think that it's not important, you're going to really struggle. My view is almost like if you want to change the people, change the people. If they don't want to come to the party, there's ways in which you can deal with it. But one of the most important things, to have zero tolerance for behaviors that break psychological safety. So people first need to understand what it is, what does it look like, what does it feel like, why do we as a team want to have this? And then you need to have a zero tolerance policy because you will be comfortable to say, look, hey, Yanka, what you said there now, that does not align with how we treat each other. Janka, I'm hearing that you are shifting and looking for blame, but we agreed with each other that we would rather spend that time and energy on, um, solving the problem, on understanding what we can learn from this. And there's many more ways and we which one can do it. One of the key and most important things that a leader can actually do is to be authentic and to be vulnerable. You mentioned Brene Brown now in her book Dare to Lead. It's all about vulnerability, courage, the courage to be vulnerable. If your team sees the ultimate team leader saying that, guys, I don't know, uh, my mistake. Let's all rally together and let's work together. They will be so much more comfortable to voice their opinion, to provide, uh, feedback, to take a little bit of risk because, wow, look at our leader does this, then I can do it. So, yeah, just a not as important application, maybe a little bit more different. You can still engage. We engaging via online platform now. I can still engage with my entire team through this type of platform and still apply our, uh, internal rules of engagement and creating a safe space. You don't have to sit next to me to challenge me or to provide input into a solution. You can sit halfway across the world and we can work together towards a common goal and objective.

Speaker B: Yeah, you brought up a very Good point. Which resonate with me very strongly. And this is something that, you know, wherever I go to, I also carry with me. It's that psychological safety is everybody's responsibility. But the leaders, of course, have more responsibility to exhibit that as leaders. But I always use this example, is that if something goes wrong in a meeting, say, among the colleagues, and someone was making a very judgmental statement or a discriminatory kind of statement, you don't wait for HR to come in, or you don't wait for a manager to come in. Like someone in the team should be able to raise it up and say, that wasn't right. That's not how you treat each other. That's not the right thing to say. Just not. Whatever you said made the other party feel bad. Why did you say that? Uh, it always becomes this kind of responsibility of, of hr. I say, yeah, I need to escalate to hr. I need to escalate to other committees and all that. Yes. But I feel that it shouldn't just rely on these few stakeholders. Everybody's responsibility to do so. And if everyone can look out for each other. Right. You know, just making sure that we are always aligned to the principles that agree of how this psychological safety looks like in our team, then, yeah, I know we are able to perform more because we know what is expected from every one of us.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: We have some, uh, again, you have a safe space to fall, you have someone that's having your back, and you know that at any one point in time when you are slightly off the track, someone will bring you back.

Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely. And Javille, I think, great place for me always to. To locate, to actually practically see it at play is in sports teams. They are there on the pitch in front of millions of people. There is a tangible result at the end of, you know, uh, 80, 90 minutes, whichever sport it is, and there's that immediate result. So we, when we designed our elite team assessment, yes, we referenced Project Aristotle, but we said, but look, where is it really evident whether one team is better than another team? Because we wanted to understand what makes a winning team. So what does the DNA of a winning team look like? And that's on the sports field.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker C: So we started our research there on the sports field, and our findings was 100% correlated with Project Aristotle. Okay. Uh, so those five that you mentioned right at the start of our conversation, some way of form maybe packaged and named a little bit differently in our model. But then we also said, but where's the stakes? Even higher. That's in the military, uh, people will die if you don't have my back. On the sports field you can clearly see which players have got the ability to lift others, how people respond when someone makes a mistake, how people respond to a poor uh, refereeing decision. And you can see the teams that are uh, cohesive, the teams that are working together as a team that is not dependent proverbial style player but where the entire team works together. Those are teams that they've got true psychological safety. They each individual within a broader framework play to their strengths. If they make a mistake, they don't blame each other. There's always an upliftment. They learn from that mistake so they don't make it again. And it's so fast paced that they don't have the, let me say the challenge that we have in business of analysis paralysis. Oh, why did this happen? We should rather spend more time like guys, wow, this was a success. Why was it a success? Debrief after big wins and small wins and not just after failures. So I think the sports industry and sports field, I think there's great parallels that, that one can, that one can pull to the business world.

Speaker B: But what's really holding people back? What's holding like the leaders, the managers, the hr, everyone's back in wanting to contribute and build up this psychological safety. In your opinion.

Speaker C: So if we, I'm going to start off with this. If we look at, and over the last three odd years we've taken over 60, 60 different teams through our uh, assessment and the two practices we identified 15 practices of a great team. And actually the two practices that most teams struggle with is psychological safety, creating that space and continuous feedback. And those two are also highly correlated with each other. You're not going to necessarily be comfortable to provide feedback or receive feedback if you feel that it is not a safe environment. So what profits people from that? Again, this is my opinion is I think going to put it down to three letters. Ego in the sense that I think people tend to take things personally too easily. Where let's say for instance, let's play it out. We sit in a meeting, I raise an idea, uh, I've got an idea. But it's different to let's say my colleagues and superiors sitting around me. Now I might be hesitant to raise that idea because what if they don't like it? What if they think I'm stupid? So I would rather protect myself than um, put my idea out there. So I'd rather keep quiet. But if the environment is safe, doesn't matter if It's a uh, there's no such thing as a good idea or a bad idea. So I think that's to a large extent it is about me wanting to protect myself from comments that I won't like. So we are, people are actually selfish people. We want to maintain our status quo. We want to be liked the whole time. So I'm going to be, I'm going to disagree with you inside. I actually don't want to disagree with you because maybe you're gonna like me less. It's important for me to be so I think deep down if you take up all the layers of the onion, it comes down um, to that self centeredness and people and mature leaders and great teams that we've worked with. They realize that they are their own worst enemy. They ask for feedback, they seek feedback, they give feedback, they raise opinions. There's, there's no such thing as a good idea or a bad idea. It is an idea that moves the team towards a better solution for the team. And it's not about the eye. So people that are less self centered are much more inclined to display behavior that is required to create to psychological safety. So that's my view is that we are very self centered. We take things too personally. We want to protect our own view of ourselves and because of that we would be hesitant to admit mistakes. We're hesitant to speak up. We don't like to be confronted with views of ourselves or views of our ideas that uh, align with how we see ourselves. Hope that makes sense.

Speaker B: Let's go to the next question which is then how do you go about measuring psychological safety? How do you know that you have built this up and how do you know that you have improved? How do you know that you have seen the impact of all this, the outcome of psychological safety?

Speaker C: So from a measurement and assessment perspective, Javille, there are some formal questionnaires. Amy Edmondson has a questionnaire. You can just hop onto Google, find it. There's a couple of statements in there with the like it style. Strongly disagreed, strongly agreed to give you some indication. Part of our lead team assessment is psychological safety with a couple of behaviors. But to me it's actually a lot easier than that. You don't have to complete a questionnaire to know whether uh, it's there or not. So I'm going to share a couple of behaviors and if the listeners, if you experience this, most likely you do not have psychological safety in your team

Speaker B: and you grab my nm.

Speaker C: So we don't have, we don't have to do questionnaires. We can just like if I look around me my job daily and I experienced this, cool. We need to do something about this. So the first really is that bullying, intimidation and ruling by fear. So that is where people blame each other. There's passive aggressive behavior. They just reprimand in front of other people. They don't hesitate to do that. It's like nasty emails, unfounded comments. And that creates an environment of fear, anxiety, second guessing yourself, don't want to speak up. So if you sit in a meeting and you walk out of the meeting and your colleagues turn to you, say I actually wanted to say this, uh, then that's a good sign that they didn't feel comfortable to say it. So uh, most likely because there wasn't good safety, breaking promises. Uh, that's another example. If for instance not following through on what you said you would do, not apologizing if you didn't manage to do what you promised. Because behind this it's trust. So uh, breaking promises, be, just be aware of that. I'm gonna say having the wrong person in the room. So what I mean by that sometimes team leaders will invite the manager to a meeting. Okay. And now this whole meeting is all about what went wrong. And it's almost feels like the manager is throwing that entire team under the bus. They want to protect themselves by saying that hey Jose, it wasn't me that did this. This is my team. It was their fault man. See you here, now you. And now it might be something that is completely outside the team's control. So if you ever find yourself in that type of ambush environment, most likely there isn't psychological safety in the room. Also if you are working with team leader that loves to take the shine, it's just about them. Okay. That is the type of person, let's say for instance you sit in a meeting and you raise an idea. Uh, and like two, three days afterwards you hear that down the through the grapevine that your idea was positioned as the leader's idea that is now being acted on and they're getting all the credit for that. Doesn't create a space where you would then feel comfortable to say but so then you're just going to keep punt because someone else is taking the shot. So self gritting behavior taking yeah credit for success. I spoke about also leaders that, that really I want to say put themselves on a pedestal corner offer just special parking spot. They really raise their status. So uh, they create the space that they are ga uh and the rest of the team are just the minions talking and executing their tasks. There's no team cohesion. There's micromanagement. Uh, will, please do this for me? But now I check in with you every single day, and instead of allowing you freedom to do the job how you see fit, I just tell you how to do it. So technically, I'm doing it, but I'm doing it through you.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Micromanagement. Another big red flag that there isn't psychological safety. And then lastly, is just measuring things that's actually not adding any value. And things like clock in and clock out times. Oh, I see that you have 43 minutes. You spent 43 minutes too long eating that sandwich. When are you going to work that back? What value is that adding? We still have organizations and leaders like that, so they just focus on the wrong thing. So these are just a couple of examples that if you look around you, you don't need to complete a questionnaire to see whether it's there.

Speaker B: One last question before we go into the quick fire round is what is that one thing that all of us can do in the next workday or so that we can help to move the needle for psychological safety at the workplace?

Speaker C: So, in my view, everyone needs to be comfortable being the idiot in the room. You need to be comfortable, put yourself out there to ask the questions, to admit mistakes. Because initially people are going to be looking at what idiot? What's. Who's this idiot? They're admitting mistake in everyone else. What's wrong with it? Okay. Or they're asking a question. Well, actually, I also wanted to ask that question. I'm too. So I'm saying a little bit tongue in cheek, that be comfortable being the idiot in the room. What I'm just meaning there is be comfortable to be different. Be comfortable to be different. Ground yourself in who you are, not who others, what others think of you. And so ground yourself in who you are, your personal values, your own personal foundation, and divorce that view of yourself, of how others will respond to you, because then you'll be comfortable being the idiot in the room. I'm comfortable being the idiot in the room.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: I will sit in a meeting, and if I'm not clear, I will ask a question.

Speaker B: Love that. Yes, it's really that. Not being afraid. Right. And going to the workplace as who you are. Uh, at the same time, as you want to be who you are, you also want to help others to be who they are. If everybody has a mindset, then I guess that's one big step closer to psychological safety. Right? Cool. We are going to go into a quick fire round. We want to let everyone also know a little bit about your non professional side of things. So whatever comes to your mind, just answer it. Okay? Yeah. One important question I really want to ask is why CrossFit?

Speaker C: It challenges me on so many different levels and it is, there's so many different. It's aerobic, it's gymnastic, it is. I've only been doing it for two years, so I'm uh, I'm very much a newbie at CrossFit. I can do things now that if I look back a year ago I couldn't even think of doing it. And there's still so many different things that I can't do. So there's this constant challenge that I like personally and the uh, just the variety of them. One exercise you'll do four or five different types of movements and also the surprise, you'll look at it, you'll get to your CrossFit box and you're like, ah, we're doing this today. It doesn't seem to be so bad. And then eight minutes into the exercise you want to die. And then also that beauty of you actually showing and proving to yourself on a daily basis that look, you can do so much more than what's on

Speaker B: your playlist, your music playlist when you are working.

Speaker C: Oh, so I'm a big One Republic fan, love music from One Republic also actually a little bit of baroque and classical music I believe I've got a very wide and I'll even shuffle in some Ramstein, some German rock. Even though I have no clue what they're saying. I just like the beat in the background. But what I listen to most often is I'll just hop into YouTube and I'll just type in epic battle music. Uh, oh. So I'm a big fantasy reader, a big fantasy fan. So I'll just type in epic battle music and that will play in the background.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Beside like academia work, uh, what is the other most geeky part about you?

Speaker C: Another geeky part of me is I like to read. I aim to do a book a week. This year hasn't been going so well so I'm going to book every second week. So I'm like to. In the mornings I will read business books. So currently I'm busy with Masters of Scale of uh, Reid hoffman, founder of LinkedIn. It's also based on that specific podcast. And in the evenings I just before I fall asleep I like to read fantasy. At the moment I'm busy with the wheel Of Time series by Robert, uh, Jordan also premiered this year on Amazon Prime. And I'm just very thankful that they did a pretty decent job at portraying

Speaker B: otherwise, you get very disappointed as a very.

Speaker C: Look, there's only so much you can do in TV series, but they do a pretty decent job.

Speaker B: What is that one book that you think everybody should read in their lifetime?

Speaker C: No Rules.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah.

Speaker C: Based on the Netflix culture. One of the best business books I've read.

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, man, that was like a page turner for me. And because when I was reading Patty McCourt's powerful, I only saw certain parts of the HR culture. But then when I read Rules, it's like a part one and part two where you put them together, then you get to see the whole picture of Netflix, even though wherever situation they are,

Speaker C: uh, at right now.

Speaker B: I would still say that they were a trailblazer in terms of the whole HR culture and all that, but I'm

Speaker C: going to be sneaky. Javille. I'm going to throw in two more books there. Obviously I read quite a bit, but I want to encourage every person the combination of this too. So, uh, Atomic Habits by James Clear. And read that in conjunction with the Compound Effect by, uh, Darren Hardy. Any type of personal change, we need to understand what it actually takes to create a new habit, which is where atomic habit comes. Atomic habits comes in. Look, and I've done a lot of research on habits. Uh, it's a passion of mine. And then the compound effect really is just highlighting the importance of consistency. Yeah. So listeners read those two as well. But start off with no rules. Rules.

Speaker B: Yeah. And thanks for recommending that. Two books. It's going to go into my book debt. Like, I have a very bad book debt in my Kindle. Okay, last question. What is that one piece of advice that you've ever received in your life and you think it has changed you a lot already?

Speaker C: Oh, three words. Trust the process, I think. And, uh, I'm going to quantify why I say that people, in my view, spend too much time being fixated on the outcome. And the outcome is not in your control. The only thing that's within your control is the process. And sometimes you just need to trust the process. Because if you trust the process and stick to the process, you will get to the outcome. It's proven time and time again. So just trust the process, be patient and trust the process. Wow.

Speaker B: Cool. Otherwise, thank you so much, Yanku, for taking time for the past an hour. So sharing with us the importance and of psychological safety, how we can build it and I really enjoy the conversation. To all the listeners out there. I'm going to put young LinkedIn and the company's name in the show notes so you definitely can reach out to him and connect with him. He has a lot of great content every day. I do read them and these are really short snippets, right? It just takes you less than a couple of minutes for you to read it and you can just go straight into your workplace and run it. Thank you so much Yangku for being on the show.

Speaker C: Appreciate it.

Speaker A: Thank you for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoy it and have learned so much to level up your career and your workplace. I hope you can continue to support my work to impact more people and organizations to level up their leadership, culture and performance. You can support me by giving reviews or subscribing to this podcast, share any memorable episode on your social media with your peers, or pledge a little token on Patreon. All the details can be found in the show notes below. I greatly appreciate your support.