The Books That Made Us Better Product Managers (And Better Humans)

Welcome to Practical Product Management, a podcast about how product management is done in context. There's no magic way to do it. You have to do it in context in order to understand it. This is Season 3. I'm gonna do the Kermie. Sparkles and like, pew pew pew. I had no idea there would be a season 3. So here we are. We did our first season a couple years ago and we talked a lot to each other. Then last season we mostly interviewed other people, and here we are starting season 3, which is going to be a mix of those two as well. So I'm so excited. Me too. I can't, uh, um, I never thought this would turn into this, honestly. And what a gift to myself. I thought it would just be you and I connecting over time and space to have a conversation about things we love. Yeah. But this has been such a— like, I've met great people, I've learned new things, I've applied new things in my day-to-day. Like, wow, awesome. Yeah, I love it. I know, it's been really, really fun. So I had an idea for today. So we started this podcast because I got frustrated about a product management book that everybody was talking about, and I was like, "I don't care, the person hasn't launched anything." And I was moaning and groaning about it, and we were like, we started talking about how there are great product management books out there, but none of them can be all things to all people, right? That's just not how they work. You can learn a lot, you can take some information, but it can't solve all your product management problems. So, I had an idea that we could talk about books that are not product management books that have influenced your career in product management. I love books. Me too. I'm super curious because I'm sure we both have books that we turn to that we've probably told each other about but not read, and then the books we've given each other and said, "Oh, I gotta read that one. You're right. That's a good one." I think it would be really fun. So, I thought we could just start. Start and talk about, you know, what are your kind of go-to books when you think about things that have influenced your career? I love this. So I am currently surrounded by books. I have stacks of books on this side of my desk. I have stacks on this side of my desk. I've got books behind me. I know you've recently moved, so you don't have a lot of your books out yet, but I know you also like roll with your books. Oh yeah, I mean, the movers are like, oh good, you read, when they come. Yeah, but what you should tell them is like— what I do tell people is, well, for fun I read on my Kindle. Yeah. And for like, for thought-provoking, I read on paper. Yeah. So just be glad I do some of my reading digitally because otherwise things would be way heavier. Exactly. Sorry about the 18 boxes of books, right? I'm sorry, not sorry. There's the 18 boxes of books and these are the important ones. All right, so I don't have all my books unpacked, so everybody, what I'll do is I promise to in the Um, in the little section that we have for each of our episodes on our website, we'll list all the books and everybody can find, find the books where they are. But I can't show covers today because I don't have all my books. I mean, I may be able to and I may not. And if I run off screen to go grab a book, it's because I found your book. Um, the one that I have bought— I mean, there's lots that I have bought on repeat. I mean, Amazon's probably like, this girl is stupid. But the one that I buy on repeat a lot is called Tribal Leadership. And I buy this one because it talks about how humans come together in tribes and how they operate either as a whole or not, functional or dysfunctional, and how, how to diagnose a group dynamic and then effective strategies for helping to sort of reset how groups work together. Because typically when I get brought in, things are not going so well. And the team is not functioning cohesively. Right. And this is like one of my favorites, like, okay, really good book. Yeah, it's funny because that's one that you recommended to me. I have a copy in a box somewhere and it's been on my stack of like, I need to get to this, that stack, right? So it's good, good that you talk about that because I'm in the same boat as you. Often when I'm showing up, it's there's something has gone haywire or was never correct in the first place. And so it's like, okay, So yeah, and it's always— it's almost always— it's very rarely just a pure technology challenge. Yeah. Um, you know, I always say that people build software, and if the people— or if there's, if there's organizational dysfunction that impacts humans, it's going to show up in your delivery cadence or what you're building or like whatever. Like, it's all, it's all people in process before it's really technology. Yeah, I love that. It's one of the— I think one that comes to my mind as you say that, that is, I mean, I've bought it, I've bought that book for my whole team before. I've had several copies. I've led a book club on it, you know, at a company, is Dare to Lead by Brené Brown. I think I have that like right behind me somewhere. So, you know, Brené Brown is a shame and vulnerability researcher. She mostly started out talking to individuals and primarily women. And then she started working with companies and she really started out, she was with, um, who are the people that make Toy Story and all those? Pixar? Yeah, so she went to Pixar and was working with them and then started working with a bunch of like with the military and a bunch of different companies. And so she wrote Dare to Lead from a business context. And I think what I took from it that has been really important to me is this kind of how do you bring vulnerability in as a leader? Yeah. Because I tend to be sort of mushy on the inside, tough on the outside, right? And want to show that vulnerability, help my team do the same so that we can have real conversations about what's going on. And she really helps explain why that's necessary if you're going to build really cohesive teams, cohesive products. And one of the things she talks about that I probably say at least 3 times a week in some context is, You know, she's very much on the— she talks about how being clear with people is the kindest thing you can do for them. Yeah. And that being unclear with them is unkind. And so when you need to give— you know, so I, I— that she's the reason I stopped giving the shit sandwich when I was doing performance evaluation. Interesting. Do you just give the shit? I go straight to it because, because right before I read her, her book, I had given a performance evaluation. It was actually really well-timed. Oh, here comes Here Comes Lucy to join the call. We'll give you your performance evaluation. Little tail and ears. But I had given a performance evaluation to someone that other people on the team knew needed one. And after I gave the performance evaluation, one of my teams came and said, what did you tell her? And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, she thinks she did great. What did you say? And I was like, oh no. And she'd only heard She only heard the bun. She did not. She got the bread, not the shit. And I was like, oh no. And then I read Dare to Lead and was like, okay, I'm done. Like, it doesn't mean you have to be unkind to someone or not tell them what they are great at, but you don't need to couch it. You need to tell them what you need them to know. Yeah. And that fundamentally made me a better leader for sure. I like that. I saw her speak one time a couple of years ago at a at an event, and she is awesome and terrifying all at the same time. I would love to like meet her in real life, but also I think I would be terrified of her because I was terrified from like 50 feet away. Yeah, yeah. She came to Amazon at one point too. She came and talked with one of those, you know, author— yeah, yeah. But yeah, yeah, she is— I think she is scary. I mean, awesomely scary. Like, I'm so glad she exists because then I can just be myself. Exactly. So that's one, that's one for me. Dare to Lead is one for me. You are always so good about communication. So you, you got me off on a communication sort of like, uh, journey. And I do have some of Brené Brown's books, but I think I, I wonder, actually, I don't know where this book came from. So Crucial Conversations, obviously. Is like, you know, How to Talk When Stakes Are High. I think it very much aligns to Brené Brown's teachings. But I, I like this particular book, and I just happen to have it here, which is weird, um, but it's called Nonviolent Communication. Yes, yes. Um, and this book, this book is about communicating things with compassion. Um, but again, you you do it as a— not in holding back and not making nice. And there is no extra bread. It's just about finding common ground with people where there are high stakes or high conflict situations, whether it's personally or business. And I don't think that I realized how much of our language triggers other people. And that's the sort of like the violent part of conversation. In fact, now that I'm talking about it, I probably need to reread it. That's— I was afraid that that would happen if we talked about books again. Exactly right. Books we talk about so bad, because now I'm going to have more than just like my two read piles on my desk. The reread pile is going to be high again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I loved about that, but I think what you just said is really important. It really— he, he really hones in on the notion of high-stakes conversations require a lot of attention. Yes. And intention. Like, you need to be very intentional about— and I think we're, um, sloppy under pressure. Yes. Right? We throw words out, and I, I am absolutely guilty of that. Like, you just throw words at people when, when you're— everybody's under pressure, thinking, I will be really direct and it'll get my message across. But you've got to be really intentional with your directness. Yeah. And you have to find a way to be like, let me get this across because the stakes are high. Yeah. Right? And you don't want to like drive someone so far out of the conversation that you can no longer engage. Yeah. Well, and I think we work in, like you and I work in environments that are very baked in old masculine language. Yes. Right? And I find myself being like a hard charging and like all these words and I'm like, Yikes, those are really, really— and as an American, I often find myself using really violent language anyway, like, yeah, you know, pull the trigger, do, you know, like, and I'm like, oh, hang people out to dry, and it's like, why doesn't everything I say have to have so much violence to it? And so, and so I think, you know, which is not exactly the kind of violence he's talking about, but it is tuned into that, like, how do we not be sloppy with it, right? I think that the thing that, I mean, I think that, so this book particularly calls out that language like that blocks compassion, right? You are making people other. I thought the thing about this book that sort of really sort of like blew my mind away, and now you are reminding me that I need to read it again, so I'm like flipping through it. Is the notion that we tend to try to communicate our point of view. Like, I'm trying to, like, force my view on someone else. And when you just take your point of view and put it aside for a second, yeah, and then start to dig into where the shared areas could be, yeah, um, you find places to operate together that open up that channel for communication. Yeah. So instead of talking at someone, like putting yourself and your need to communicate to the side for a minute, looking for a shared outcome is really interesting. I wonder, my friend, and I'm going to now— Marshall seems like a male name, but this feels like capabilities that females employ more naturally than men. Yeah. Yeah. Super interesting. Yeah, he is— he— it is a— it is a man. Um, but he— I think there is a lot in there that he has garnered from working with a lot of women and seeing how they— how they operate and how we show up. Um, to try to make space for those— those conversations, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's super interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I— yeah, I like that one. I also— I like Crucial Conversations. I like Fierce— there's one called Fierce Conversations that I think is pretty good. Conversations. What's that about? Conversations. Very much like how to get to the, you know, like under really, um, again with high stakes, how do you have the hardest conversation rather than having 3 conversations that are about something else, right? Like how do you have the center conversation? Um, which I think is really good. So there's a few of those that are all sort of tied together. One book that's a— I think it's about communication, it's a little bit different, um, that really it kind of led me down this communication path, is Quiet by Susan Cain. Okay. And that is a book she writes about the— I think the subtitle is something like the, um, the hidden genius in introversion or something like that. So it's about how we live in a society that really promotes extroversion, but introverts build a lot of things, do a lot of things, are very involved in things. And so how do we make space for introverts to say what they need to say. Oh, I like that. Right? She also names the concept of an ambivert, someone who is introverted but can extrovert, which is how I would describe myself. Like, I'm an introvert by nature, but if you need me to extrovert, I can. Right? And so this ability is kind of like being ambidextrous, like you can do both. Yeah. Right? You have a primary. And she uses that concept. I read that book when I was at Amazon, in the Amazon, we were building the Amazon business teams, and I was really trying to navigate how could I be myself with a team full of engineers, mostly introverted, and then someone like Joe Margarone, who's like, "Whoa," like, you know, and, and which, by the way, Joe, we love you, and his kind of personality, his introversion and extroversion, and how, you know, how you play with those things. And it was really helpful to me, especially working with engineers, right? And other tech people, because I think we need to understand each other. Yeah, yeah. It was a really interesting read for me. So yeah, I like that a lot. I like that. I think that it's, you're right, especially in technology where there tends to be a lot of introversion. If you're unable to have the right conversations, The right things don't get done. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the things I've always said that I admired at Amazon was that everybody at the table was supposed to have an opinion. Yes. You still needed to ask in some cases, like, what's your opinion? What are you thinking? Right? To people who were naturally quieter. And I think as a leader, I'm always looking for like, who's the quiet person who I'm like, tell me what we're doing wrong because I know you know. Right? I want you to just tell me. So. Talk to the team. Which brings me to my new favorite, which I found on Instagram that I think we talked about in a previous episode, which is Jefferson Fisher, who's the lawyer who wrote the book The Next Conversation. Like, yes, boom. I love this book. I love his Instagram. I follow him all the time. He's got lots of really practical tips about how to, you know, stop violent conversation when it's coming at you, because he's a trial lawyer, so he understands how to sort of like Yeah, like just really practical ways to sort of like trap conversations instead of react, right? Because yeah, we all sort of get triggered, right? You're in a room, you're happily in a meeting thinking that everything's going fine, and then you get sideswiped by something and it actually triggers a physical reaction, right? And it's how you deal with those moments that makes you the leader that you are. You cannot just sort of like, I don't know, lash out. Yeah, I liked his— I really, when I read that, I really felt like a strategy. Like he was like, as a trial lawyer, he's like, okay, we're here and you want to be there. And our typical fashion is to go here, find your way this path. Right. And I really liked how he did that. And I, like you said, I think his Instagram is really— he's very good at like nuggets of information. You're like, oh yeah, I'm doing that. I don't want to do that. I should stop doing that. Oh dang. Yeah. Dang. Fell into a habit. Right. Do you know what he needs? He needs one of those word a day calendars. That I can just like pull up January 37th and be like, oof, that's a good one for today. Yeah, I've done that in the last 3 weeks, those 3 weeks multiple times, right? Yeah. Um, another book that I find myself recommending a lot, which is hilarious, is a book called The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control. Okay, tell me more. Her name is— you've mentioned this to me before and now I'm like regretting not buying it. I wonder why. There's an accusation in that. I don't know. Ouch. So her name is Kathryn Shafler, and what she does is she defines— she basically at the start of the book gives— there's a test, and there are multiple types of perfectionists. Okay. Perfectionist is kind of one way, like you always want everything to be perfect, but there are procrastinating perfectionists who won't even get started because they know they can't do it well. And there are, there are perfectionists who are doing it— they, they need, um, there's a type of perfectionist that's more like, I need everyone else to agree with how I'm gonna do things. Oh yeah, that's not me, right? There's all these different types of perfectionists. So she helps you figure out if you are one or if you have a tendency, and then she basically talks through the fact that there's so much out in the ecosystem about becoming a recovering perfectionist and giving up perfectionism. And she says, you just gotta use it for good. Yeah. Like, how can you use your perfectionism not to weigh yourself down and beat yourself up, but to move in the direction of good? I love that. And so she talks about, like, if you have a North Star, and this is perfect, The perfectionist needs to aim in that direction and be okay with whatever happens on the way. Like, learn to adapt and say, okay, like, learn, learn something. Not maybe not going to get there, maybe I need to move the star, right? And so I really like how she basically says it's not a— like, you don't have to lower your standards, you don't have to let go of your perfection, you have to figure out how to make it your superpower. Oh, I really love this. It's really lovely. And I think it's, you know, how do you learn to tolerate ambiguity, uncertainty, those things, so that your perfectionism doesn't cause you to freeze. Yeah. You know, and so, so I've recommended that book so many times because I think there is a natural inclination for product managers to be perfectionists. Yeah, because you have to be right. Yeah, you have to be right, and so you don't want to get it wrong. Yeah, you and I both know we spend more time being wrong than right. If you're doing the job right, you spend a lot more time being wrong than right. You just have to reduce the risk. I love this because it kind dovetails to one of my philosophies that I've sort of embraced as I've gotten more experienced. More experienced. I turned 50 yesterday. Oh, yay! I'm more experienced now. I crossed that mark many moons ago. Many moons ago. I don't, I like, remember when I remember when I was early in my career and people would always try to tell me what was wrong with me, and then we would try to fix what was wrong with me. Um, and it— you only have a certain amount of energy in your life or in your day to gift to doing things. And as I've progressed and as I've helped mentor and manage people, um, I think that rather than trying to like perfect areas that don't come natural— naturally to you. You should acknowledge they're there. You should look for compensating controls, whether that's working with people that have the skills that you don't have, and then doubling down on your superpowers or your strengths and honing those in a way that makes you more effective. You're probably going to get more juice out of that lemon. Wow. Then you are like trying to like You know, I'm not— I was just going to say I'm not a perfectionist. I think I probably am, but maybe in one of those weird ones. I don't love the details. I don't want to get mired in the details. I want to set the high-level direction. I want to like, you know, we're going towards the mountain, team. And if you told me I had to spend my life in the details and I had to get really good at it, I would hate my life. Right. So I love that notion of like, you know, your perfectionism is a superpower and lean into it in ways that enhance your life. All right, I'm buying that book. Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think what you just said that's really interesting is I feel like I spend a lot of time both as a coach and when I'm meeting people saying, I'm not trying to make you be someone you're not. Yeah, I'm trying to help you be as effective as you can with your particular set of skills and personality. Yep. I remember, and we've talked about this before and I won't name the person, but I remember getting a review at Amazon and being like, it was the first time that I got the review and I thought, I don't agree with some of this and I'm not going to take it. And I said, I appreciate the feedback, I have taken the feedback in, I reject this piece of feedback. And the person was like, you can't. And I'm all, no, I'm just telling you I'm not taking it on board. That is not true about me. And they're like, oh, okay. And I'm like, I, I understand that there's feedback here. I'm happy to talk to anybody who's given me the feedback, but I reject that this is a truth about me as a person. Yeah. Based on a handful of data points that don't actually collide into what you've decided about me. And I just reject it. I accept everything else, and I intend to work on all of it, but I reject that piece of feedback. And the other person was so like, I don't know what to say to that. And I'm like, fine, I'm gonna sign the review. I'm not, you know, I'm not, I'm just saying in the notes when I sign, I'll say I reject that piece of feedback. I remember that happening and I gotta tell you, I think that was such an epiphany for me personally that you don't have to take on what someone else says about you. Especially if you don't believe in your heart it's true. If you examine it with humility and— because, I mean, being at work with someone only shows one side of your personality. And I think that sometimes when people give feedback, they're casting aspersions on the human rather than just saying, hey, in this particular situation, you exhibited this and someone interpreted it as that. Yeah. Um, it's very situational. Yeah, yeah. And I think you gave me a lot of strength in that, in that example, because I just didn't realize you could be like, meh. No, that's okay. Well, what I always tell people when I'm coaching them, or even if they're on my team, when I'm giving feedback, I always say, what I want you to do is really listen and take it on board and examine it. And if you decide that it is not true about who you are, that is your choice. Yeah, it's okay, right? Because we don't have to let other people— once again, it's about the table. Yeah, the table, right? And that was for me all around that same time. And, and in this particular case, this person had a bit of an agenda. He was trying to change something about me. Yeah, it's pretty unchangeable. That's a fundamental part of the feedback to sort of do that thing. And I was like, no, I, I'm fine with the feedback. I'm not fine with your conclusion about the feedback. Yeah. Wait, explain the table because I have used that example so many times over the course of my career with people. And I don't know if we've hit it in this broadcast. And I think it's important for people to understand. Yeah. So I mean, I got this from Brené Brown. Like she talks about that not everybody has the right to a seat at your board table. So if we are each our own product, our own brand, our own person, we have a set of people that we'd say, hey, come sit around the table. We need to talk about how I'm doing, what I'm gonna do next, what's gonna happen. And I want your opinion. You get to have some feedback and some input. Yep. Everyone doesn't get to sit at the table. Randos definitely don't get to sit at the table. Toxic people don't get to sit at the table. You want people at the table who have your best interests at heart, who know you, and who care about the outcome for you, apart from themselves. Like, they don't have an agenda to act out on you. And for me, what happened when I learned about that concept was I realized I had given the company a seat at my table. Yes. Amazon's opinion of me was as important as my sister's. Yes. And I was like, "Oh, hell no." Right? Like, my sister loves me, wants the best for me. Amazon wants— I'm a product. Yeah, right. And I'm not bad. I mean, I had good experiences at Amazon, but I also am not— I am a tool in their tool belt. I am not a human being treated as a human. Yeah, a company doesn't get a seat at the table. An abuser doesn't get the seat at the table. No, you need to have a pretty narrow table. Yeah, and those are the people that you tend to call on when you're like, I got something going on, I need some help, I need someone to help me think this through. Yeah, they will be objective about who you are, but from a loving place. Yes, they want you to succeed, and they're going to be with you for a large arc of your life. Yeah, so that for me, I just, in the course of that whole review was, and I was doing that, that learning, I was like, oh, I've given them, I've given them a seat at the table, and I don't, I'm rescinding your seat. Yeah, lost your board seat, sorry, right? That is the one thing that you taught me that I, I gift to almost everybody that works for me, is, is I have an opinion, um, that you— but, and I think we're work obsessed, right? So much of our identity comes from work that people naturally let the company take a seat at the table. I have an opinion in this context, but our time together is limited, and so I need you to form your own board table. I need you to think about this objectively. I need you to think about what you want out your life. Yeah. And then you can either take this on or not. Right. Stop giving a company a seat at your table. They're not going to be there forever. No. And even, I don't know about you, but I've even had people that I knew were giving me too much of a seat at their table. Yeah. Because they admired me, because they liked working for me or whatever. And I'm like, whoa, I actually, I like you, but I also have an agenda. Yeah. You are a tool for getting this done, and you're a human, and I care about you, But you're giving me way too much power. In 30 years, are we going to be sitting on a beach drinking a margarita together? Probably not. Right. So with that point of view, put a little bit more distance between what I'm saying and how you've onboarded. Yeah. And I think that there are, you know, like, listen, there are people you work with who do have a seat at the table. You have a seat at my table. Gino has a seat at my table, right? Like, you're the people that I'm like, I gotta talk. Right? Like that. And I value— yeah, I value your opinions. I listen to you. I can look back at things you've told me and be like, yeah, I should have listened to that. Right? I did that thing that I shouldn't have done. Right? I can see that. I told you not to do that. Right? Yes, you did. Yes, you did. I mean, I've definitely— you make those, but those are relationships that are established at work. Transcend work. Yes. Right. And so I think those things start at work. Yeah. Yeah. But they're different. They're like, you know, you call those people in times of personal crisis. You can call and tell them you hate your job. Yeah. Because there's no, like, right. Or you, or you hate, like, this interaction with them, or like, it's different. I don't think as product managers, because you are interacting with so many different stakeholders and so many different people, you might give up ground to people and put them at your table when really you need to, like, this is work, this is me, I am a human with an identity separate from being product manager on product A. Yeah. Right. And so I think that learning these things can be so important for PMs. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. One more for me. Okay. And it's going to go back to what we talked about consistently, Leah. So, I guess I'm just like a broken record. I think that the best leaders make others smarter and better and don't take the credit and don't stand out front. I love this book, Multiple Leaders. Okay. Yep. I 100% believe on taking the hit for your team when something goes wrong and letting them stand out front when things go right. Don't take the credit. Spread the love and spread the joy and make others successful. And sometimes you're less visible, and I don't think I care about that. Right. There comes a moment when you're like, no, no, take the credit. You're just having a bad day. Exactly. You're like, I'm good. I don't even need the credit. Go stand in the sunshine, my friend. Yeah, that's what I always say. I will stand in front of you when the bullets fly and behind you when there's sunshine, right? And I think when a team believes that about you, man, they will go the distance. It's when they know you're like, hold on, I'm going to step in front of this. Everybody back off. This is my mistake. And everybody behind you is going, it's mine. Shut up. It's my mistake. Right? And then when the sun shines and you just move out of the way and let it land on them, it's like, you're brilliant. You're the— Look how amazing my team is. Yeah. Look at how brilliant they are. Right? The other day I said something about how great my team was and the CEO I work for was like, That's a reflection of you. And I was like, yeah, maybe. Like, I just sort of brushed it off, right? It was just like I batted it away very easily. I was like, yeah, sure. I was like, you know, but he laughed because I was like, I don't care about that, right? Like, I was like, yeah, maybe. I said, what it is, is I'm a decent hiring manager, right? That's what I— I know how to hire good people. That's what I'm good at, right? So, but yeah, so it's interesting. One more from me is probably a bit of a wild card. Oh, I like a wild card. I had a couple others that were a little bit more data-driven, like Factfulness and Humankind and those kinds of books. But the one that comes to my mind now that we've talked about all this is The Four Agreements by Miguel Ruiz. Okay, tell me more. The Four Agreements is a bit of a woo-woo, um, Toltec woo-woo book from, you know, like, it's, it's really short. Okay. And Four Agreements are Be impeccable with your word. Don't take anything personally. Don't make assumptions. And always do your best. Oh, what? Hold on. It's a short little book. I mean, it's like, I don't know, less than 100 pages. I'm gonna buy this. Check, check, check. In, in, here it is. And he tells it from sort of a fable. He uses a fable and tells the story and then, and works through. But basically, like, use your language responsibly. Always speak the truth, right? So that's being impeccable with your word. When you think about taking things personally, other people are experiencing the world, and when they say things to you, you don't have to always take everything they say personally because sometimes it's just them. It's a them thing, right? Just, just be willing to say, I'm not gonna take that personally. And then ask questions and be curious. Don't just make assumptions. Yep, right. And then finally, in all of that, do your best. I love that. From where you are right now. And that, for me, as a product person, I read that book years ago. I've read it so many times over the years. It's one that I go back to a lot. And it reminds me, like, okay, as long as I'm doing my best and telling the truth and not making assumptions and not trying to over-personalize everything that's being said to me, I can just do my job and do it the best I can. Yeah. Right? And it's a short little book, and it really has stuck with me over the years. I love it. It's in my cart. Um, I— yeah, I would like to go to a bookstore though and try to like buy it from a real bookstore. That would be kind of cool. You should do that. I know, bookstores. I love that. I love that notion of like no assumptions. And I had a coach years ago, um, and that was his— like, there was a, there was a message for me in not trying to assume. Don't build the story, only deal in like the base facts, and then to check in with myself physically because, you know, yeah, what's like how, what am I feeling? Who do I want to be as I walk into this meeting? And those just few things for me, like the couple tools he gave around there about not making up stories in my head, don't make assumptions about what other people's motivations are, and just sort of checking with myself were game-changing for me. Game-changing. Yeah, because we write, we try to fill any gap we have with a narrative. Yes, we're storytellers. Write a script. What are they thinking? Why are they thinking this? Oh, they're thinking, now I'm mad. It's like, what are you even mad about? You don't even know what they're thinking. Yeah, right. And let's see, it's like I said, I think it's such a game changer when you can stop and say, I'm going to ask a question rather than make an assumption. Yeah, yeah. And I know there's like a, there's a technique that I, I don't know, I probably picked up from somewhere like the 5 things you can see, the 5 things you can hear, the 5 things you can touch, just to sort of ground yourself right here and shut your brain up. Very grounding. Yeah. I mean, I do think those sort of things are really critical regardless of whether it's a high-stakes conversation or not. Maybe it's just like Tuesday and you're like, I can't go to sleep. So I can hear myself breathing. Yeah, how do I get back in my body, right? How do I get back in this body? Because I'm having a physical experience, right? Yeah, yeah, 100%. 100%. I love this. This was fun. This was like a little book club. It was a book club. It was a book club. Maybe, maybe this year we should branch out and bring in some authors or experts that do things like this. Yeah, I would love that. You know, wait, is season 3 going to be a little bit wild, Leah? Let's do it. I mean, it's all about making product managers better product managers, and that's really broad. Yeah, right. It's a broad job that you don't have— you don't hone in on, like, I know how to write user stories. Okay, great. Yeah, right, exactly right. Cool, cool story, bro. Yeah, awesome. Now what are we gonna do, right? Yeah, that's the easy part. I, uh, I know we talk about this all the time. And we're trying to wrap up, but I, I still struggle with the fact that people are like, oh, this random person in another piece of the org, they'd be a great product manager. And I'm always like, the hardest part of the job is actually building and launching something. They might have instincts, but do you want me to really train up yet another person? Yeah, to do this job? Possible. It's possible. But like, just don't think you can take someone off the street and like pop a new title on them and be like, "Go, I'm the product manager." It's like, "Okay." Yeah. It is such a devaluing of the role that happens a lot. I'm always like, that's why I always tell product managers, like, don't get your panties in a twist over not being understood for the job title. That's just gonna be your whole career. So deal with it. Figure out a succinct way to say what you do, because if you try to spend all your life explaining it, It's a waste of time. You're just gonna go nuts. I am not a project manager. I do something different. Let me explain it quickly and then we're moving on because you don't need to understand it. Exactly. So unless you do, in which case, let me get you some information. And point you at millions of people that need you to come and help build their product because it actually takes a certain amount of skill and patience and grinding it out to actually make something work. That's exactly, exactly. Uh, this was fun. I'm looking forward to season 3. We have this episode and we have some interesting guests coming up quickly, and I think it's going to be really fun. So if you're watching this, pay attention. Every couple of weeks there'll be a new drop, and we'll go from here. Love it. Thank you. Talk to you soon. Bye everyone. Bye.