Season Wrap Up - The CEO of Your Life

Speaker A: Welcome to Practical Product Management. This is our podcast where we talk about how product is done in context. It's not some magical theory and framework that you just wave a magic wand. And product happens the same way everywhere. It happens in context of where you are and what you do. So this is what we talk about each time. And today's episode is our season two wrap up. I can't believe we're at the end of this year and this season, um, it is the holiday season and we wanted to just do a little tie, a little bow on season two. And then we're gonna take a little break and come back next year with some new guests and new ideas. So, Marilyn, here's my thinking. You and I, I think one of our very first episodes of this podcast, we talked about things we like, cliches we don't like about product management. And the very first one we led with was neither of us, like, this whole, like, product managers are the CEO of their product. We're both like, right? Yuck.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: I do, however, think that you and I agree on the notion that we are the CEO of our lives and our personal brand and our own joy and happiness. Would you agree with that?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker A: So how do you think about ceoing yourself in your life?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah, I.

Speaker B: And this is one that I like to discuss with people that work for me too, which always kind of surprises them for some reason.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, you, you are the head of yourself as a corporation. And there are. And you taught me this, Leah, to, To be clear. Like, this is not. Like, I'm not the wise man in this. You are. Uh, but I have grasped it with both hands and fully embraced it. Um, you have a board of directors, and they sit at the table of your CEO, and there are people that are allowed on your board and people that are not allowed on your board. And the person, the person, um, thanks, Hobby Lobby, uh, that gets to sit on your board is never your job, right?

Speaker A: Never.

Speaker B: The people that are closest to you, your family, the people that care about you as a human. Some of you, some of your friends, be careful, can sit on this board and advise you on how, what choices to make and you know, because they want the. What's best for you as a human. But your job does not get a seat at that table ever.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Not a family. No.

Speaker A: 100%. And I mean, just to be clear, I originally got this concept from Brene Brown, and that's where. That's who taught it to me, um, years ago when we were living in Seattle And I remember being in a position where I realized I had given the company a seat at the table and their opinion of me was part of my identity. Instead of being like, hang on, hold on a second. Yeah, you don't get to have a seat because you're not even a person.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Who is at the table. Right. So. So, yeah, I 100.

Speaker B: And, uh, like your boss. I mean that. The reason I bring this up to the people that work for me is I'm like. I'm like, don't give me a seat at that table.

Speaker A: Like.

Speaker B: Like, I don't deserve a seat at that table. The person you work for is. Should not have a seat at that table. They give you feedback as part of an annual review process that you can ingest as one view of how some people in certain contexts interact with you. But it is not a reflection of you as a human. It's just not.

Speaker A: No, exactly. Because, I mean, we're not, as a manager of people, as a leader of people, we're not agenda free.

Speaker B: You are not agenda free.

Speaker A: Like, I have an agenda for better. I can. I can really care about my team. I can want for their. Their best, but I also have to think about the business. I also think about the product. I think about the stakeholders. I, uh, Like, I am not without an agenda when it comes to the people who work on my teams. I have less of an agenda if I'm sitting at your table as my friend. My agenda is your happiness. And you and I have had those kinds of hard conversations with one another where I'm like, listen, I need to tell you something. Right. So. But that's me saying, do I still have a seat at the table? Because I have an opinion. Could I have an opinion? You know, and that I. My agenda is your joy and your happiness and your. The respect of you as a person, as a leader. Like, that's my agenda, which is a very cool.

Speaker B: I am in this job and the next job and when I retire and when we're old and crazy, like, you're. You're with me for the journey.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And if someone's not with you for the journey, then, like, don't give them that seat. They don't belong there.

Speaker A: Right. I think, I think using you and I as an example, I'm, um. When we worked together, it probably didn't make sense for me to have a seat at the agenda of your job. Right at the table. I was your friend, but I also, when we were working together side by side, I had an agenda. There were Things I wanted from you. Right. In order for us to be successful doesn't make it wrong. But when we shifted our relationship, we shifted the seats at the table.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Um, yeah. And I think you have to. There are people that were. Had seats at my table in the past who don't anymore.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, and it's not. They didn't.

Speaker B: Wrong.

Speaker A: It's just like, okay, you now don't have a perspective on my life. So thank you for your service. Off you go. Right. Doesn't mean I don't. Don't like them, don't care about them, don't whatever. But the seats are very limited.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: They should be limited. If you're letting too many people chime in, then it's a bad thing. I think you said something really important, and I think there's two. Just because someone doesn't have a seat at your board table does not mean they're. They're not a good friend, they're not a good colleague, and they're not out for your success. So I think, I think there's two different things we're talking about here. The first is who gets to be at, uh, your board table and who gets to help you direct your. Your life.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And then there's people in context in the job that you're in because you can go to someone. Just like you just said to me, hey, because your success is my success and I want both of us to be successful and awesome. I'm going to give you some advice in this context that is. That is a person, that's your colleague and your partner in that moment on that task.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: They don't necessarily care what's going to happen to you 20 years down the line right now.

Speaker A: Right? Exactly. 100%.

Speaker B: Yeah. I don't. I think you got to be really careful about who you let at that table and how you let that affect yourself. And it's really hard. Um, it's really hard. And I. So I know that this year has been sort of a rough year for a lot of people. A lot of people I know and myself, myself included. Um, I know that you, you know, we do wrap a lot of our identity in what we do. Um, and so when your role is impacted and, or you're asked to leave for whatever reason, um, I've got a very strong opinion on, um, how companies do things like that and where the failures are when those sorts of things happen. I don't think it's at the individual level for sure. I think most of these things are management failures.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, it's really hard not to take that stuff personally.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, we can say. Listen, I say that all the time. People are always like, oh, it's just business. It's not personal. Fuck that. These are people. Yeah. When we treat them a certain way, when we are treated a certain way, when we treat them as a number, when we say we care about them and then behave a different way. Like, it is personal. These are humans.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Sorry. Yes. Yes. It's business. I'm not even discounting that. It is also business, but it is also personal. Right. These are. These are humans. If you were, you know, dealing in Autobots, fine. But you're not. You're like, these are like. These are humans. Right. And I guess I wonder what. Like, what makes us as. And maybe not us, you and me, but us as. As leaders, as companies? What makes us forget about them as humans? Them, the team, as humans? What do you think does that?

Speaker B: I. I don't know my hypothesis. Look. Look at my body language.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's, like, so awkward.

Speaker B: Um, I'm gonna hunch a little bit. These are really terrible decisions. And usually when a company has to start taking action like that, they've already made so many bad decisions that it's led to almost a financial crisis.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, and that's because they did not have the hard conversations earlier. They did not have the right hard conversations earlier, and they made some bad choices, and now they're at this point where they have to take drastic action. I don't believe most. Most companies or people want to start here. Um, I don't believe. I'm choosing not to believe that because, um, that would mean there were some people out there without a lot of conscience, and that would bother me. Um, so I think. I think you get to this point because there's been. There's been a lack of hard conversations. We could talk about that. Um, but I think that to some degree, once you get to this point where it's like, in order to survive, in order to be viable, we need to make some. Some. Some human cuts.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, that we distance ourselves from the humanity of it. People put on a defense mechanism to be able to get through it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, it's just a quick conversation. You'll be in, you'll be out. It's 10 seconds. Here's your script. Um, but I think. And I get it, right, because there's legal to adhere to, and you don't want to open yourself up to things, but we're forgetting to respect the person on the other side of that conversation. Um, and I do wonder if there are ways. Two things. I wonder if there are ways to deal with the action, um, in a little bit more of a humane way. And I wonder if there's ways for leadership to hold themselves responsible for not having the hard conversations or being more thoughtful about their business choices.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And I think that, like, listen, I mean, now I'm gonna soapbox here for a second. Lisa or Leah. Man, I just called you Lisa. That's how. That's how, like, uptight I am. Um, you're the second person I know

Speaker A: well who's called me Lisa this week.

Speaker B: Oh, weird. You must be giving off Lisa vibes. Um, I'm actually like. I'm like. I'm actually feeling. Feeling in my chest, which is interesting. Um, I actually think that, uh. I actually think that sometimes the act of taking these actions is also, um, a little bit, uh. I don't want to say cowardice. That's the wrong word. Um, but what if rather than just looking at people as a cost center, you took a really hard freaking look at your business and decided what projects and. Or software and. Or things to cut or reduce before you look at people? And I think a lot of this is, um. I think the root cause of a lot of this is lack of prioritization. Um, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna be very specific about what I mean by prioritization. It's really easy to say what your top three things are. I have never, ever seen a company say, and These are the 10 things that we're going to put down. Not right. And I've seen companies say, these are the things we're not going to do. And then they continue to do them on the side. I mean, kick the servers over, shut it down, delete the confluence pages, get rid of the code. Um, shut it down. And I've never seen a company fully shut something down. They say they're gonna. This is deprioritized, but someone's still working on it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Somewhere there's a. A backlog that is still getting looked at and brought forward. Like, totally. No, I totally agree. I totally agree with that. I think. I think there is a lack of, you know, cowardice is a strong word, but I do say it said another way. Like, it is a total lack of courage.

Speaker B: Yes. Right.

Speaker A: Which is ultimately cowardice. Right. Because it's like, oh, well, we can't just be giving up things. Like, I always start from, have we figured out how to optimize our Current revenue. Are we. Are we. Are we making all the money we can make on this? If not, what do we need to do to increase the revenue on the things we already make money on? And what does that mean? Do we need to increase bigger? Exactly. What do we need to do there then? Are there other products we can make money on? And what are they and how hard are they to create? Are they ancillary to these? Are they brand new? Like, why do we think that there's a winner in there? And then what costs can we reduce?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And what does that look like? Because I'm telling you, I think businesses that go to their teams and say, we've got to figure out how to cut costs would be stunned how deeply they will cut in order to. If they know that what you're trying to do is make it so that you don't have to cut people, people will be like, we don't need coffee in the coffee machine. I'll bring my own coffee. Like, they're suddenly very creative.

Speaker B: Uh, I worked at a place when I did a full platform audit. I found 11 messaging systems in the same organization. 11 messaging systems. Let's talk about how you can save cost.

Speaker A: Yeah. Crazy.

Speaker B: It's licenses, administration. Like, uh.

Speaker A: Yep. And so you start there before you ever talk about a single person, Yen. Before you ever say, well, you know who we could get rid of. Okay. And quite frankly, I have more respect for organizations who say, okay, now we've done all this and it's time to talk about people. Let's start at the top.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Who in this leadership team could consume other people's jobs a bit? Where could we cut bonuses? Where could we all take a hit for the next three to five years? Have that damn conversation?

Speaker B: Uh, it never seems to happen there, does it? No. You hear these stories of like, we cut. We cut X thousand people, but then leaders got a bigger bonus. And I don't, I don't. I don't understand that because a lot

Speaker A: of them, A lot of these companies. And I'm gonna. Now it's my turn to be on my soapbox. Are incentivized by VCs and private equity firms to make the cuts. If you do that, we'll reward you. Bullshit. It's bullshit. You are taking advantage of humans and then giving someone a reward for it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Congrats.

Speaker B: I wonder when shareholder value stopped. Stopped, including this notion of, uh, the people that also worked in the company.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well. And I think one thing that you and I. Yeah, I 100% agree. I think one thing you and I have talked about is when you start to squeeze that all down, like, and you, like, you don't get more creativity out of people.

Speaker B: No. Um, no.

Speaker A: So when you're having these, like, what could our product do? Could we sell this product in another way? Is there a different market? If you've squeezed the team down and done layoffs, there isn't a creative bone in the team's body for a while. They're like, you don't see me over here getting a, getting a paycheck.

Speaker B: They're running on fear. They're running on fear at this stage.

Speaker A: So they're not going to raise their hand and be like, I have an idea.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: Okay, uh, listen, idea guy, you're out. Next. Thank you for your, you know.

Speaker B: Well, I mean, it's, I think that, I think that's true. And I wonder, um, because, you know, I think that you're. Again, I'm going to go back to like, no set of humans are perfect. You know, there are going to be times when you're taking your risk. As a business, you should understand that risk and have leading and lagging indicators on whether it's going well or not. You should be able to understand the impact on the overall financial picture. But at some stage people are going to make mistakes. Cause we're all human and that's what, that's what happens. Um, and again, to go back to like the transparency and the honesty with the organization to be like, whew, you don't want your sort of CFO to get up and be like, it's peachy. And then the next month or the next two months have something that really impacts workforce. I think you want to go like, hey guys, um, here are the challenges we're facing as a business. Um, we are going to need to focus in these areas. Um, um, sometimes if, you know, roles and responsibilities aren't super clear, then you get what I call like the five year old soccer team where everybody's swarming the ball and it's not helpful. Um, um, I actually the other, the other month I, I said sometimes it's like a five year old soccer team and everybody's forming the ball, but then the coach keeps throwing like two or three more balls on the field. Nobody knows which balls the ball to chase, um, which is the ball that's going to score, but everybody's chasing all the balls. Um, I do think giving your organization real clarity about what are the challenges, who's going to be the decision maker for those challenges. Organizing A team to be able to contribute to those challenges and solve them in creative ways will get you probably farther as an organization than to your point, sort of dropping the organization into a fear response. I don't have the organizational psychology background that you have where Leah, but from lived experience that's. I truly believe that a, uh, team and people operating from a negative fear based position will never give you creativity. They have to heal from that in order to actually produce anything interesting.

Speaker A: 100% I like. Listen, I think this goes back to some of the conversations we've had this year. Like there isn't a framework that gets you out of this. There isn't an org model that gets you out of this. There isn't an org development plan that gets you out of this. You need clarity, you need courage, you need context and you need to point the team at it and say, this is what we're going to do. Be brave.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And consistency. Let's add another C in there.

Speaker A: Yes. Every day I get up and I go to work and I don't have to be afraid because we have clarity, we have courage, we have context and we are going to be consistent.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: I think the, the tricky part for that as we're talking about it and I've, I mean I've had this conversation in the last few months several times. The, the leadership team and the organization as a whole has to have a strong spine.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You have to have a spine. You have to have a creative spine, you have to have a technical spine. You have to have a leadership spine that says we will not bend just because it gets hard. Like we're not just gonna be like, well, that didn't work. It's been two weeks. Like what? Nothing happens in two weeks or two

Speaker B: weeks in two weeks.

Speaker A: Right. We gotta, we gotta get to have some spine.

Speaker B: Yeah. But uh, I think that's about understanding your revenue cycle. Right. What's your business cycle? It's like if you could, if you could have an idea, execute it and get money in your bank account in two weeks, by all means, go, go, my friend. I haven't seen it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Speaker A: Right, Right. Well and I think, I think going back to what we were talking about earlier, like, I think in order to have that forward looking spine, one of the first things you have to do is admit the mistakes you've made.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: This was bad judgment, this was a bad decision. And it doesn't have to be like, marilyn, you made the mistake, but we made mistakes. And what does that look like? And how do we get out of this mistake? And I think individual leaders have to say, I did that. Here's what I was thinking at the time. Here's what I know now. Here's what I would. Now that I have more information, here's what I would do differently.

Speaker B: Yeah. And here's how I'm going to take. Take. Put in guardrail so this doesn't happen again. Um, when you were like, I don't think you have to call out individual leaders. I feel like the best leaders I know would admit. Yes, to your point. Here's the data I had at the time. Here's the call I made.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think in a good leadership team, um, I expect in a good leadership team, if everybody's at the table and the CEO were to say, I think we've made some bad decisions, does anybody else. Does anybody want to point one out that the first person I'd point out would be me? I'd be like, you know what I probably could have done? Like, I might be looking at the room full of people and being like, that guy did that, and that lady did that, and I might know what I would say. But generally, you know me, the first person I'm gonna point out is me. And be like, you know what? I probably could have said this sooner. I probably could have done this. I probably could have not hired this person right away. I could have. There are some things I could have held the line on now that I know this is what I would have done differently.

Speaker B: The frustrating part of that for Amelia, and having seen both of you do that and me do this, is the people that, um, that maybe really need to speak up. Never speak up.

Speaker A: Never. They let you hang yourself out in front of everyone, and then don't take it as a mirror to courage.

Speaker B: Yeah. Like, there's this honesty thing. Like, I. I really feel like that. And it's probably coupled with the helping, serving of humility and being humble, um, to know that as leaders, you're not infallible. Um, but to have an honest conversation, um, um. And I think that what happens is, uh. And a lot of times we. We just sort of. We don't have the honest conversation. Hey, uh, you know, I'm worried about this choice we're making as a leadership team. The leadership team meetings aren't effective because it's some, like, pre. Pre booked agenda that doesn't actually really get at the heart of things. Have you ever left, like, a set of meetings and been like, oof, when we never solved the hard problem.

Speaker A: Yeah. What was the problem? What's the point of that? I find it maddening and I have for many years and I can. This is. I'm not picking on any particular team. I've been on probably all of them. At some point where you have this weekly meeting where all these people get together and are supposed to make decisions and have hard conversations, they don't do it in that room. Instead they all go off and have a point to point here and a point to point here and a point to point here. And you know what Tom said? Tom said this and you know, Bob said that and Susan said this and. And you're just like, why are we not having that conversation in here?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think still totally conflict averse. Yep.

Speaker B: We're like. We lack the courage.

Speaker A: Uncomfortable.

Speaker B: There's this person that I, that I had worked with at MasterCard. Um, his name is Keith Farazi. Uh, and we were really lucky to have him speak at our leadership off site in uh, in Dana point.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: At MasterCard. And um, I had him come work with my team. And he says a lot about that. Saying it in the room, giving people hard feedback in the room. How do you do that in a way that like builds intimacy and trust. He's got some, some really sort of fun little exercises that you can do. I will tell you, I have never seen a tame, um, get to trust faster. I have never seen a team openly talk about hard things in a room. M. Um, I see. So I've seen so many other teams I've been on in my life have, have been exactly what you were talking about. They didn't have the hard conversation. Everything was back channeled. They didn't. And it leads to lack of success. At least to lack of success. Let's be super clear. Um, he changed my life and that team's life and fundamental ways. And it's, it's just so simple and it's a, it's about courage and honesty.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And there. And I think that takes us back to humanity. Right. Like you need. I. And maybe I'm an oddball in this regard, but I fundamentally distrust people who won't say what they're thinking.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Who, who hedge or don't say anything or, or, or sort of just get really silent when I speak my mind or like I, I mean I said this this week. Call me an asshole. Don't walk out. Um, like if you're going to pick one of those two poisons, call me an asshole. Yeah. Let's Go.

Speaker B: You can say, listen, I need a minute. I'm gonna. I'll. I'll be back in three minutes. I just need to go walk around because I can feel myself getting anxious.

Speaker A: Yeah. But let's have, like, let's have a hard conversation with what I mean by that. Like, tell me you don't like my approach. Tell me you don't like what I'm saying. Don't walk out.

Speaker B: No, because you're. I mean, I think, and I think, like, we're going to get back to another piece of, like, my philosophy around leadership and teams. As a leader in an organization, your team is your peers. You're here to run a business in a very successful way. The people that work for you. Yeah. Your job is to care for them as humans, make sure that you're, like, you understand where you want their career to go. You're helping them. Um, but your job is to run this frigging business.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And if you can't have those conversations.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And that, I mean, that's the whole concept of first team, second team. Your first team is the team you're on, not the team you lead. They are each other's first team, right?

Speaker B: They should be.

Speaker A: Yeah. But I think often we get so, like, laser focused on our space in the business that we're like, this is my team and this is the most important thing. No, this is the most important thing.

Speaker B: That's where you have eyes, you have an expertise, and that expertise helps the business.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Um, but you're. You run the business.

Speaker A: But that's the reason why now whenever I interview or talk about potentially taking a role, whether it's fractional or full time or whatever, I want to know the people on the team I'm on.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah, I, uh. This sounds really vain, maybe. I am not worried about building a great team. My team. I'm not worried about it. I know how to build a great team. I know how to get the best out of the team I've got or hire the people I need. I'm not worried about that. Uh, it's just not my biggest concern. Like, I will either hire them or make the best out of what I have. Like, I've always been able to figure it out. It's been harder in some places and easier in others, but I've always been able to do that. I know how to lead my team. I need to know who the people are. They're going to sit at the table and be with me.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: On the hardest days and on the best days. I need to know who's going to look me in the eye and say, you don't get to say that I need that person.

Speaker B: Or hey, hey, uh, I understand your point of view, but, you know, you're driving us down a hole. And let me tell you, let me tell you what I see from my perspective.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, and I think what everybody needs the humility to know is that their perspective is not right. As a collective, we can be right, but as individuals, we're wrong.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, and I don't love, I don't love like top leaders that don't want to hear everything.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like they don't want to hear it.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: They just want you to do the thing. And if, you know, if you just want me to do the thing, you got the wrong person.

Speaker A: Yeah. That's what I'm always like. I'm not your girl. You hire. I mean, at this stage in our careers, we're basically hired for opinions.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: I don't write user stories or truth.

Speaker B: Right. You want me to come in and tell you the truth, which is what you're gonna get.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It's like, I mean, I, I laugh at the, the CEO I work for now sometimes I say, you want the truth? And he goes, yeah. Like he has to take this little breath of, um. Like, I know when you tell me the truth, it's not gonna be great. Right. And the fact that I'm asking you, you means I could tell you what you want to hear or I could

Speaker B: tell you the truth.

Speaker A: What would you prefer? I could do either.

Speaker B: I mean, I can't. I think that's one of my flaws.

Speaker A: But you know that as I say that, they, they know full well that I can tell you what you want to hear. And then it's gonna be like I'm gonna do with a smile on my face because it's not true.

Speaker B: I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't. I can't. And I know that, you know, I've had situations where people just want me to take. Tell them what they want to hear.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I.

Speaker A: Not my thing.

Speaker B: It's physically impossible for me because I think that it ruins my credibility as a, as a person and I just, I won't do it. I would rather, I would rather have this not work out. Which, which brings us to sort of like this moment that I think both of you and I are in, in our careers that I want to figure out how to gift to everybody.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And. And that is, um, You Know, how do you get Leah to a point in your career where you're doing the things only because you want to?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I described, I was introducing myself this week and said, I do a little fractional work. I do some coaching, I do some advisory work. I work with VCs on product due diligence. Um, and I summed it up. I was like, I guess you could summarize it to say, I only work on things I want to do.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. I now, at this stage in my life, I only do what I want to do. After years of having jobs where some part of the job was like, I don't love this, but I love this. Right. I love this part. So I do this to have this. Now I just do less of that part that I don't like. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And again, I think it requires the courage to say, I need this environment to be like this for me to be successful. If we can't do that, not. I'm not asking the whole organization to change, to bend to my will. I'm saying I need us to have this kind of truth, this kind of creativity, this kind of courage. If we can't do that, I'm not right.

Speaker B: Yeah. How, how so? How hard is that? But what a profound shift for me personally.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: To be able to say, if I don't fit her, I think that's okay because I don't really want to get up and live this life. Um, and I wonder how many people out there like me earlier in my career slogged through things where they didn't necessarily fit well.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um. And just think that, like, I gotta have the paycheck, I gotta have the job, I gotta like.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They don't, they don't have the freedom to choose the things they love.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean for me, when you say that. And it. The first, the thought of my brain goes to the first time I was given a performance evaluation and thought, that's not true.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: The first time somebody said something about me to my face that was supposed to be a reflection of who I was. And I thought, no, it was the very first time that I thought, uh, you can give the feedback and I will hear it, but I get to decide if it's true about who I am as a human.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And so I either get to defend my position as to what the thing is you're saying, or I get to just say, thank you very much. I'm not taking that on board.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I've had people say, well, but you need to take feedback on board. I'm not suggesting that you don't listen to the feedback. I'm suggesting you decide what you actually take into your body.

Speaker B: Yes. That's hard.

Speaker A: And if something is saying you are this way and your physical body wants to reject it, Trust your body.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean, because listen, I have been called everything you can call a woman in business. Stubborn, opinionated, bitchy, opinionated, aggressive, aggressive, abrasive. I mean, you need to manage your face. Like all of the things that. Like all of the things you can say. I have heard the difference between me now and me 15 years ago, even maybe 10 years ago, is that I'm like, I can quickly discern what you say and go, yeah, that's true. I am that accurate. I am also these other things. Right. I told, I told the same group of people I was telling you about earlier. They, I said I am direct. I say what I think I am. M opinionated. I am, I can be tough. I'm not the easiest person in the world to work with, but I am also kind.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I am generous and I will listen to you.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Those things are all true.

Speaker B: There's a whole person.

Speaker A: There's a whole person there. And when we're giving people feedback, sometimes we're trying to pound into them who we want them to be and people need the right to say, uh, that's not true.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny. Um, you're reminding me. So a lot of. One of the things I really love to do with teams is do disc profiles and write user manuals and talk about, uh, strengths and attributes. And invariably we get to that slide about how your strengths are also your weaknesses. Um, and you need to know in some situations that what is actually your superpower is going to be perceived as bulldozer or ah, resistant or. And that is not. You are not resistant. Your, your superpower is that you need the details. Yeah. And you're thorough and without the details, you're unable to make a decision or you, you resist a decision because you want to have all the information and people will call you, you know, dragging your feet, not on board.

Speaker A: Like, right.

Speaker B: You know, uh, and, and understanding yourself and being able to create a user manual. Here's when you communicate with me like this, here's when I do my best. When you communicate with me like this, here's what you're going to get. The negative reactions. And it's not because I'm abrasive or abusive or rude. It's because I'm trying to get us to A direction.

Speaker A: Right. We'll go back to clarity.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I have the courage to seek clarity.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker A: And I will push for us to get clear, because that's the only way I can lead other people is if I'm clear, then I can give clarity down. I can. We can move that downstream.

Speaker B: But it's a visionary, and you lead people and you set direction and. Right. So all of these things come with so many bonuses.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, and. But everybody. There's not one person that, that should be, like, sitting on their white horse right now thinking that they're. They have no downside. You absolutely do. But they're also probably predicated on your superpowers.

Speaker A: Right. Right. And I think we just. I think right now, uh, just in general, we tend to reward certain behaviors and punish some behaviors. Right. And I think, I think we're in an age where the machines are getting to weigh in on things that should be appropriate and what we should do and how we should do it. And it's like, hang on, humans. Humans need to. Human, come on, come back to the table. We're not. We're not asking chatgpt how to human. Right.

Speaker B: Oh, my God.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, we have to acknowledge that most of those, Most of those systems are biased.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And we need to remember that. And also, like, as much as I love, uh, I'm going to say technology, because I think that the two letters AI are, like, horrifically overused. And. And if I see one more person presenting them on LinkedIn, presenting themselves on LinkedIn as, like, an AI expert, like, I'm like, I'm going to leave LinkedIn because it's just trash panda universe right now. Um, I do think that technology is useful for helping humans do more. More effectively, but that does not remove your. Your need to actually ensure that it's doing the right thing. Like, I think that, you know, I vibe coded or I had an idea that I put in chat GPT and it spat out a business plan or a prd. If I have to read one more of those things where someone just copy and pasted and the icons are still in the dock, the stupid little icons and headers. I can't see it.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, you didn't.

Speaker A: We know you didn't put that emoji in there yourself.

Speaker B: Oh, and you're making me read 18 pages of that. You should have gone through first.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: Wait, am I getting emotional again?

Speaker A: I mean, I had an experience recently where someone actually, rather than another leader, rather than dealing with a conflict in the team, asked ChatGPT to um, analyze the conflict and then just stuck Chat GPT's message in the thread.

Speaker B: Um, how'd that go?

Speaker A: Really, really well, as you can imagine. And I, in giving that person some human feedback said that wasn't appropriate, you can't do that. And they said why not? And I said because you have to. Human.

Speaker B: Yeah, you can ask for advice. It's a great advisor.

Speaker A: It's a great advisor. You can use it to make some connections. You can use it to see if you're, if it thinks like you're thinking. But you then have to human. And one of the things I said, going back to what you said, one of the things I said was, in case you don't know this, I'm going to say it again. I think you should know this. AI is today inherently racist, inherently misogynist, inherently against cultural abnormal abnormalities. Right? It has a norm that it defines. And we would all say, yeah, but these other things are normal. It doesn't, it has designed a normal. It doesn't make room for the other. Right. And I said plus. So that's true. Plus you're the one that wrote the prompt.

Speaker B: Yes. Well it's funny because I just saw, I think I just saw on the information when they looked at ah, at the different models and tried to find out what cultures they were most aligned to. How. Well like what cultures they were like they most closely aligned to. It was like Germany and the Netherlands. Um, but like, remember like this is not, this is not culturally appropriate in all instances at all.

Speaker A: Right? Like it's, it goes back to. Is it the culture code where she talks about sort of high, high, um, emoting ah, versus, you know, she has all these kind of different, like there's different cultures that have different ways of engaging and space bubbles and words you use and what's polite and what's not. And like there isn't a single, a single, you know, a single one that is like this is how humans are. So you have to human in context. Just like you have to product manage in context what it's like, come on, like, would you do that? I wanted to ask this person, like, do you do that at home with your wife?

Speaker B: Oh, please tell me no.

Speaker A: How does that go?

Speaker B: How long have you been single?

Speaker A: Do you have a girlfriend? No. Oh, interesting. You know, but anyway, I just think again, it requires courage to say AI uh is an interesting thing. Technology is important, data is important. We need to have the courage to say those, Those things are interesting and we're learning and we're growing and we're going to use them. But also we're not going to let them replace our humanity.

Speaker B: Not yet. Um, and when we get there, I hope I'm retired. Actually, it's funny that you say this because I think a lot of this is reflected in business use cases that people are trying to use AI for to now. We still need to do the work to understand if the customer problem is there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Is this a business problem that we want to solve? Like, is. Is there a business wrapped around this? Should we be solving this problem and why now? And if you cannot sort of articulate those things, like why would you apply AI in that space?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: It's not, it's not going to be helpful. It's not actually going to drive any results that you care about. It costs something, let's be super clear. Yeah, like it costs you something as a business, both in terms of productivity. Opportunity cost, because people are working on one thing versus another. Again, let's talk about why layoffs happen. Uh, opportunity cost. Um, and so I feel like this like radical application of AI across everything is, um, sometimes, sometimes it's done thoughtfully and business leaders are doing it for a purpose. They understand the reason they're doing it, they understand the cost, they understand the opportunity costs and this is where they want to go, which is cool. Um, and sometimes it's done without all of that because someone saw an article that said that most companies are using AI. All these other CEOs have got it right and you're the dumbest one in the group. And oh, by the way, everybody that's dumb is gonna get. They're gonna go out of business and have no money in five years or like whatever. It's all fear based.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally.

Speaker B: And it's not thoughtful.

Speaker A: So it's funny as you're saying that something came to my mind. I think it's a little tangential, but it's. Something came to my mind. I saw something recently that said, uh, CEO, I know said something about in 12 to 30 years you won't be happy, you won't be driving cars, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he was explaining why and I almost commented and I just changed my mind because I was like, I'm just picking a fight, you know, because I wanted to say some of us love driving a car. Yeah. Like do I want to drive a car to commute every day? Probably not. But do I love to get in a car and drive across a landscape that I haven't heard before with the radio blasting? I don't want someone else to drive that car. I want to drive that car.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And so I was, I wanted to say that. And then what I thought of was the beginning of my career. I worked in, um, an ACH in check processing. And everybody, this was 2001, 2002. Everybody was like, no one's gonna be writing checks in 10 years, baby. It is 20, 25. And people still write checks.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I used to say, like, they would say, you're not even gonna have anything to do. And I'm like, there are states. My mama still writes checks for groceries.

Speaker B: There are places, contractors that, I mean, I saw a. I hope I'm not behind your mom at the grocery store.

Speaker A: No, FYI, I buy when we go.

Speaker B: Just so you know, the contractors that come to work on things, I'm surprised at the amount of people that still want to check. Like, like I. I get the really thin, like, you know, free 25 checks from the bank because I'm like, I don't need checks. And invariably I am going back to get stupid checks.

Speaker A: Right. Uh, and the reason I just point this out is that I think I'm not trying to be like, oh, in our day, blah, blah, blah. Like, I'm not trying to. I like technology. I love to know what's going on. This is what we do. So I'm an early adopter. I love technology. Right. And yet these big sweeping decisions and statements based on nonsense.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Have been, um, true in technology since the start. Right.

Speaker B: People, like, needing to be the visionary. Like, everybody wants to be that bearded guru that sits on top of the mountain that issues profound statements. And I just find it so frustrating, like, ah, it's gross.

Speaker A: It's gross. Exactly. Yuck. And so I like, I just think, like, again, we're back to humanity. Clarity, courage, context, consistency. Like, what does it look like to be all those things? Right? And I think it takes us, I think it takes us all the way back to joy.

Speaker B: I hope so. Hope and joy, right?

Speaker A: I. I mean, listen, it's the holiday season. It's all about hope, it's all about joy. Whatever you believe. Like, that's the, that's why the lights are twinkly and they make us feel good. Right? I.

Speaker B: So what do you do? What do you do? Um, it's funny because I have a sister that's got a pretty severe health problem. I don't know, probably no one knows this and no one cares, but I have a sister that's been struggling health wise. And I was talking to her the other Day, and she's got three kids and she's always busy and she's always doing something for someone else. And I just said, what do you do that makes you happy? What do you like? What do you do? And she's like, I don't know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so, Leah, how do you bring joy to your life?

Speaker A: You know, there for me, there are like, of course I love the work. Like, I love that I have this job that is a little of this and a little of that and a little of this and that is part of it. But there are things I do. I mean, I am, uh, and you know this. I am a woo woo moon worshiper. I love the moon and I love tarot, and I love all of these, you know, woo woo spiritual things that other people would be like, I'm sorry, your little logical numbers technology brain does that too. Yes, it does. I do both those things. Right. And so I love to lean into the mystical, lean into the, like, what is in that space. Right. Um, I love that it brings me joy to sit out under the moon during a full moon or a new moon and be like, hello there, moon. Right? I see you doing your thing. Like, I love that. I love, I love finding, um, like, things I give a. About and figuring out, participate. I just saw a thing the other day that was all about, like, there's all these. I don't know why. We have a. We have a baby cat problem in the UK and we can't, we can't find enough people to take baby cats. And I'm like, how can I help? What do I do? And so I was like, okay, I can give you money, but I'm also wondering, could I help with, you know, could I do some messaging? Could I help with this? Could I, like, I want to find things I care about and dig in. I want to figure out how within my, my circle of family and friends and all of that. How can I, how can I make sure that the kids who need a little bit extra boost to go to college have that space to go to college? Like, those are things that it brings me joy to be like, here's a little extra money for your books. Like, also buy yourself a facial, you know, or whatever. Like, you know, like, I think you should also get to have some, Some joy.

Speaker B: Yeah. It's not just about the book. Unless you love books, which both of us do.

Speaker A: Which we do. I mean, it's on my, it's on my list of things that I give myself freedom to buy a mini of. Obviously.

Speaker B: But I do think it's. It's. It's beholden on us, on each of us, to. To make that space for the things that make your heart feel happiness.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And like. Like, watch for those signs and then do that thing. If you're not doing a thing that makes you happy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, every single day, then what are you. What are you doing? Like, to, you know, to be creative, to lean into work, to. To do the things for the kids and the house and the husband and the parents or whatever. Whatever you're dealing with, because everybody's got their thing. Right. You also have to respect and make time for you and your table to go back to, like, you are the CEO of you dot com. Um, there must be some space for happiness.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It has to be.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's. It's that moment. I always think of it as, like, there is there. We all have those moments where suddenly it's like you can take a deeper breath, and you go, oh, that feels good. I like.

Speaker B: Or live outside your body.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: When is the last time you lost yourself in something?

Speaker A: Yeah. 100%. Like, you know, what. What is that thing that just. You're just like, m. And I know you always have a ton of stuff, and I'm always like, what are you doing? What are you doing? What's happening? So what. What is your joy? Things.

Speaker B: I mean, you know, I'm a huge. I love to bake. Um, and so I. I love to bake, and that comes across in lots of ways. Like, I had a cookbook club with friends. I don't have friends where I live right now, so I don't have a cookbook club. M. I love Great British Bake Off. Um, and I do sometimes remote bake offs with some of my friends. I'll be like, all right, we're gonna do this thing that Paul Hollywood put out. Like, this is the technical challenge. Go. Um, but I've. I've applied that to, like, there's a charity called Cake for Kids, for kids that, um, you know, live in foster care or are homeless, that don't get cakes. And so you get this, like, mini challenge of, like, make a mermaid cupcake. And you're like, I don't know what that means, but you got to figure it out.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, and then I love animals. I don't. I don't have any right now. Except for those seven cats. Or seven cats, seven chickens. You can send me seven cats. I'll take seven cats. Um, so I, like, I'm. I'm on the board of Last Hope. K9, right. I'm trying to give back in spaces that make me happy. Yeah, I love to remodel houses. I'm almost done with this one, so I think I'm gonna need pretty soon.

Speaker A: You need a broken house to take your move?

Speaker B: Sorry, Patrick.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, you know, I do. I like, Like, I like buying the biggest disaster on the block and making it better. Like, it doesn't have to be perfect, but it's going to be better than it was. Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, no, I'm glad you like that, because I'm moving in someday.

Speaker B: Come on. I'll remodel your bedroom. It might have, like, winged. Winged lynxes on the walls, but it'll be a bedroom.

Speaker A: Okay. It just needs a little kitty door for the.

Speaker B: We just finished, uh, redoing the chicken coop, uh, and the chicken run for. For winter. So now they're, like, they're. They've got their little, like, heating panels on and their little electric door that goes up and down, and they've got these like, like, clear side panels. So they're out of the wind. And my chickens are very spoiled.

Speaker A: Is that what you're talking about?

Speaker B: My dad? Yeah. They're not my chickens. What am I talking about? They're my dad's chickens.

Speaker A: Your dad's chickens, grandpa's chickens.

Speaker B: And I have to make. Because I want all these stupid eggs in my house.

Speaker A: I have to make something with all these eggs.

Speaker B: We give away eggs like crazy.

Speaker A: Well, something you said just now that I think, like, I think it's a. For me, it's a little bit of vulnerability, but I'm going to say it out loud. I think going into next year, you know, I'm not a resolution person. Uh, but what I would like to have going into next year is I want a group of friends around me. Yes. Like, this is, you know, like, it's hard to not be like, hey, guys, come over. Let's do this. Hey, everybody.

Speaker B: Or someone randomly bangs on your door.

Speaker A: It's like, hey, hey, can I can. You know, do you want to come over for pizza tonight? And then Marilyn gets out the wheat. But

Speaker B: yes, I do.

Speaker A: You do?

Speaker B: I will grind the wheat for the flour.

Speaker A: Okay. I'll just bring wine. But no, I think. I think when you have had community and you've been in places where you've had community, it can feel like a real lack. Right. And I think in that. In those spaces where you have that lack of community, it's easy to fall into your job and visit that space. And I Don't think we should.

Speaker B: I don't either.

Speaker A: Your job should be your community. They can be people that you hang out with that you like. You can make friends at work. Hello. Um, but. But you need a community outside of that.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think there's this notion of conscious community building where you live. And I mean, like, I would like the same thing, Leah. Like, I would like to know people that we don't have. We don't really have friends here. I'm trying. Right. We had a summer party and we had people over and it's awkward. And like tomorrow I'm having a, um, get uh, together for the art association that I'm part of. And it's awkward.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, like pre game with a glass of wine and I'm way funnier.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But I. And I think, I think it's such a, uh. I think it's so easy to fall into. Like, oh, I'm really busy and I've got this. And I have these people and I have these other people I need to talk to and I'm going to video call with this friend and I'm going to. All true. And they are. Those are that my online community is my community. If I didn't have my online people, I would be bereft.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It would be a bad situation. And yet I just want. I want a table again. That people are around.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because it.

Speaker B: Especially this time of year.

Speaker A: Yes. And it keeps me from putting my identity in the work only. And it is a group of people who can say we have you. When you are like, this is not gonna work out.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because it's a job. It doesn't have to work out. And that's okay.

Speaker A: It's okay. It's okay. So. So it sounds like we both know what we want next year. Yeah. So which is good to do things that we enjoy to not. Yeah.

Speaker B: I think that is the. That is the mantra. Like, is this bringing me joy? What's Marie Kondo? I'm gonna recond life. It's not just the stuff around me. It's like, do I enjoy working with this person?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Do I enjoy this part of what I'm doing where I'm choosing to give my time? You're trading your time, you're trading a piece of your life for something.

Speaker A: I mean, you know, you know me well enough to know how much I hate post it notes on my desk. I know I have one post it note on my desk and it is the same post it note all the time. And it Literally says, how do I want my life to feel?

Speaker B: Yes, I love it.

Speaker A: That's it. Like, I'm not worried about how do I want. Like. Like, yes, I need to make money. Yes, I need this. Yes, I need that. Sure. But every decision has to be run through the. The matrix of how do. Will that make my life feel right and good and happy?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Will I feel better or worse if I do this or that?

Speaker B: Yeah. Will I feel better or worse?

Speaker A: Yeah. And how. How do I want my life to feel?

Speaker B: Yeah. Right.

Speaker A: And so for me, that's the. That's the labyrinth it has to go through to say, no, that's not the right job. Yes, that's the right person to have in my life. No. Yes. You know, if it's. You know, sometimes you go down a road and go, oh, no, that's not it.

Speaker B: And that's okay. There's actually a whole book on that. There's. Funny, when I. When we worked back at Amazon, there was a book I used to buy everybody that came to work for me, and it was by Seth Godden. It was called the Dip. And it talks about what is the difference between a dip and a cul de sac.

Speaker A: Yeah. Ah.

Speaker B: And it is okay when you walk into a cul de sac to be like, whoops and turn around and go out.

Speaker A: It's just.

Speaker B: Just like navigating a road. You don't keep driving down the cul de sac because there's a freaking house there. You turn around and you go do something else. And it's okay. Just recognize when it's a closed second when it's a dip, and it's a true learning experience. Anyways, meow, meow, meow. I know. Um. Love it. I know that we're wrapping up, but can I just tell you, like, thank you. You bring me joy, and spending time with you brings me joy. And you have always just been a constant source of friendship in my life. Um, and so for everybody listening, like, you know, find your people and find your joy and bake cookies and send me some pictures of it. And thanks. Thanks for being here.

Speaker A: Yeah. Thanks for saying that. I feel the same. Like, I know that if I send out the. The flag of, oh, God, I need help. Some talk to me. I need this or I'm lonely or this is funny to me. Is it funny to you? Like, we. Like, I know you're going to be on the other end of that. Right. And you need people in your life who don't leave you hanging and who will say, I got a lot going on but let's talk right? Like there's a lot, there's a lot going on. I uh, you know, but, but yes, I'm here. Let's talk about what's going on with you and you always answer and that's been so critical in my life over the years. So I appreciate it and I love that we do this so that we can do this.

Speaker B: It brings me joy.

Speaker A: Yeah, we podcast for us if you guys like it.

Speaker B: I'm still convinced nobody listens and I'm all right with that because it really is just for us.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly. So I look forward to season three. Um, enjoy your holidays and if you're you're listening to this, have a great holiday season. Go listen to some old episodes in your free time if you want to. Otherwise we'll see you next year with some more cool, cool topics. Awesome. Bye. Happy New Year.

Speaker B: Bye.

Speaker A: Mhm.