Best of Season 2, Part 2 - Conversations that reminded us why Product is a "people-first" craft.

Speaker A: Welcome back to Practical Product Management, a podcast. Um, as you all know, if you watch us, you know that we talk about doing product management in context and how important it is to think about where you are, what you do, who your team is, what your company does, instead of only thinking about theory and what's in books. So. So here we are. It is another special episode. This is episode two of the best of our podcast this year. We talked last, um, episode about the first 10 sessions that we recorded this year, and now we're talking about the second 10 sessions we recorded this year. And, um, we talked to some really cool people. I mean, we did.

Speaker B: It was a good. I, uh, feel like we have got to meet actually some really interesting people this year. And, um, we're starting to sort of, like, talk to people that maybe we haven't, like, known for years, which is kind of fun.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean, I think there's a little blend here and there of people that we knew or whatever, but for the most part, this second half was mostly new folks. Other than Alicia and Gino. I think everyone else was someone, or I guess you knew Steve, but other than that, and I know Sunny, so, um, maybe.

Speaker B: All right, we're lying. We know everybody.

Speaker A: Gino and Alicia and Sunny and Steve. We knew them. It was a great combination of people that I think I felt. I said to you earlier, it felt a little like the second half of the year was a little more touchy feely and. And about softer, softer topics, but I don't know if that's true or not.

Speaker B: I feel like it. I feel like it was. I mean, I. I feel like we always have a theme of curiosity and learning and leadership and either being a good leader or finding. Uh, but we, you know, we actually sort of dovetailed into some pretty interesting subjects with some of these people.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: I mean, still containing some of the, like, better together, right? We're all better together. People build software. Um, but I love some of the conversations, like the one conversation we have with Charity, who is like my new best friend now. Um, you know, when you. When your passion, when your energy, when your creativity start to fade, it's not failure. Feedback from your body. And this is something like you're really good at it and helping people understand through your coaching. Uh, but burnout is data, not drama.

Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And just, you know, as, you know, because we've both been there, like, your body starts to signal long before your brain catches up. Right. And Charity talked about that. I know we Also talked a little bit about that with others, but certainly we talked about it some with Sunny. Um, and, like, how do you, you know, how do you really think about design for fun, but also, like, how do you build community? And how do you think about giving people spaces where they're not only kind of in my head. In my head, like, how do you actually open that up and create some actual kind of thought and community? And I think that there's a huge, huge element to fending off burnout with with some of these concepts that we talked about.

Speaker C: It was really.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: It's really interesting.

Speaker B: And I think that goes for your product, too. Like, you know, when we were talking with Greg about the art of intentional white space, like, not only how do you leave space for yourself and. And your body to be creative and to have play? If you're, like, if you're in that situation where you're under constant stress, it's not good for you. How do you leave white space in your product? Um, and how do you sort of, like, get really simple?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And, I mean, I loved that conversation with Greg because I think he really hones in on, you know, that leadership isn't just for extroverts and for, you know, big personalities. You can also lead from that other space. And I really, uh, enjoyed that conversation, and I think it speaks to a lot of folks who are like, I love this job, but I also am not going to fit a specific mold. And I think that's important. And I think we saw that in the conversation with Ryan where we talked about, you know, how. How we use these tools, um, to build culture change and how, you know, there's so much that you really want to fix in our conversations, right? So that the system can follow and the systems can flow and. And do what they're designed to do. But you have to start with really, really good communication.

Speaker B: A hundred percent, 100%. And then, you know, I mean, I think both of us are. Are firm believers in, like, you know, authenticity and, you know, standing in your own power and being yourself and the courage of, like, sticking with your truth.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, yeah. And obviously, Leah, some of my very favorite conversations are around, um, experimentation. And we saw that a lot with Mike and how, you know, empathy and experimentation kind of came from the nerd culture. And then obvi. Our conversation with Gina, Gino and Alicia, where we talked about Fafo, um, and, uh, MVPs being garbage.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Uh, or trash. How did. How did you know?

Speaker A: Phrase it?

Speaker B: MVPs are trash.

Speaker A: Trash.

Speaker B: Makes me happy. Uh, that was actually probably. That was probably, I think, one of the episodes where we laughed the most.

Speaker A: We. Yeah, I mean, that covered that. If you watch that episode, you'll notice that there's a lot of airspace because we're all laughing and talking at the same time. And that to me was such a sign of like real friendship, but also really excited to talk to each other about this topic because we were all sort of wrestling to get in and talk to each other about it. And that is when I love what we do when that happens. When we're just like, oh my gosh, what about this? And there's so much energy there.

Speaker B: Um, you should see us after we've all had like one cocktail and doing the same thing.

Speaker A: Well, I mean, except Gina, who drinks like a 16 year old girl.

Speaker B: But he can have a flower in his drink.

Speaker A: He's like, look at my cocktail with a straw and a flower. I mean, I hadn't gotten to make that joke yet today.

Speaker B: I mean, it's been two seasons, Leah.

Speaker A: Exactly. Feels, feels right to be able to tease him. Awesome. Well, so I suggest everyone go and watch the clips that we're putting together for you. Um, and then we'll come back at the end and we'll wrap it up and catch anything that we, that we see that we're like, oh, we didn't talk about that. Um, so enjoy the clips. And man, can I just tell you, nothing taps my hide like being asked for a 12 month roadmap.

Speaker B: Oh my gosh.

Speaker A: I've just realized I also have a few little spots that are like, man, put your finger in there and watch my face light up. That is one of those places where if you poke me and say, you must give me a 9 to 12 month roadmap, prepare for the death stare, because it is a fucking waste of my time.

Speaker B: Yeah, you can have a strategy for the next 12 months. Is not a feature roadmap.

Speaker A: No, I recently put one together that the roadmap looked like this team will be running some user research, doing some testing, making some iterations and building some shit. And they'll be in various stages of that every quarter. And it was like, that's not detailed enough.

Speaker B: Chasing after this outcome. We're gonna, we're gonna spend, we're gonna spend the cost of this team and the platforms they're running to chase this business outcome because whatever they're doing right now could be better.

Speaker A: And the truth is like, uh, so I wonder what you would say about this after all these years. The only time that I have really needed a roadmap was when there was hardware involved. Yeah, that's it. The only time a roadmap made a damn difference was when you needed to produce a physical good to make your thing happen.

Speaker B: Yep, the only other time. And I think this comes back to like agile isn't everything. Some teams, waterfall, and it's okay. And that's not a bad thing. So let's talk about what it means to be in a network. Um, and your customers are big banks and those customers can't consume your changes. You get to release quarterly three months in advance. You need to be able to publish the specs like uh, there. That there are teams that should be running waterfall and they should have an idea of what they're going to build in the future because their customers need that predictability now. There's also a whole new generation of customers that do not need that predictability. And so that puts the networks in this sort of space where they have to be able to accommodate both.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, but yeah, like a 12 month roadmap I just think is fiction. It's a work of fiction.

Speaker A: That's what I said when I was asked for one recently. I said, so you want me to make it up? It was like, uh, what? And I was like, so you want me to make up? Because I mean I can, I can make some up and put it on there. And hopefully it was sort of like, yes, please do that. I'm like, okay. Right. And I was like holding to it.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And that's why I said the minute I make up and put it on there, then you guys are gonna hold me to it and I'm gonna be like, I didn't know. I didn't know better. Right.

Speaker B: I reserve the right to like cross something out and put uh, like we learned X and so these things on

Speaker A: and this is here. Like that's. But I was like, but that was my exact reaction. So you want me to make up? I can. Like that. I'm an excellent fiction writer when it comes to this. Because that's all it is.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Like it's roadmap fiction. Sure, I'll make something up again.

Speaker B: Like when you do that, I think that you take the strategy out of the team. Uh, because now you've said like our business strategy for the next year is set in stone. Not we already know our customers and we already know where they're going to be in 12 months and we already know the product. The one product that's going to give us product Market fit. Nothing's going to shift in the future.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, and you don't you take away the ability for your product and engineering teams to listen to your customer, understand the high level strategy. Like, we want to be in this market, we want to serve these types of customers, um, and look for those opportunities to really leap forward and drive product market fit. You've taken all of that away.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100%, which is crazy.

Speaker B: Tam.

Speaker D: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it kind of probably comes back to my more detailed nature and my information style. So I've set up little dashboards and metrics for every aspect of all of our product management. Um, so you can see how quickly we're developing features, how many bugs, um, all the different elements that we want to track. And we make it a group issue rather than an individual issue. So we have a lot of team meetings where all the metrics are in the forefront for everybody. So if one person's kind of lagging, everybody feels like it's a team problem rather than an individual problem. That seems to really help. Um, we also are very, very careful, um, about who we add to the team, so we make sure it doesn't shake up the team dynamic. Um, so we use a lot of the scenario tools that we have inside of our own application in order to see, okay, we need to bring in a new qa. We can scenario plan that with a team report tool that we have internally, um, inside of our app and figure out, okay, if we bring in a QA that's a little bit more of a driver, who is, uh, that potentially going to upset in the team and whose work are they going to be reviewing things like that.

Speaker A: What's funny about you saying that is I think that that's what I do when I build teams in my, that's how I approach it. I'm putting a puzzle together. So it's interesting. I'm like, oh, that skill I acquired for 20 years is now something that can be done without me.

Speaker E: Right?

Speaker D: Or you just learn how to do it intuitively. So it's, um, you know, it's like a lot of, I would say our biggest competitor is people just doing, doing things based on intuition.

Speaker F: Right?

Speaker D: Um, you know, advisors just working with a client, um, that they meet on the street, they don't really know who they are whenever they first meet. If they had our insights, they would. But we just help them, you know, realize the little quirks of individuals quicker and help them adapt. Um, yeah, that's probably, uh, one of the Interesting things about our business is that it's just, it's human connection and some people are good at it and some people are terrible.

Speaker B: Now I mean that super resonates with me. I think one of the things I like one of my little things is I always say people build software, um, and that the interconnectivity of the team, like Leah said, is just so critical because you get, you get something going on that's not building trust and building psychological safety and it will derail your entire platform. Like it delays, timelines, it gives you like features that don't like that you, that you can't commit to or can't iterate on. Um, so let's take that back and let's like, let's say that I'm a product leader, um, or a product manager and I'm struggling within a team to understand how to relate to someone or if my team is healthy. Like what are the tools that you would suggest someone looking at, uh, in that case to sort of like figure out how to get the team together.

Speaker D: Yeah, it's always interesting if you just do an after action review when something doesn't work the way that you're expecting and then just go step by step to figure out, okay, where was the break breakdown? And almost all the breakdowns are going to be communication related. Um, Harvard did a whole study. There's like 87% of business, um, conflict is all based on poor communication in a team. And we see that time and time again. So just understanding in these reviews that we're doing post mortem or after action reviews, whatever you call them, um, figure out where do things not work out right? Um, it's probably going to be communication oriented and then figure out is this something that, you know, you could have done better or someone else could have changed their communication to you. And then just using a tool in order to kind of bridge the gap, whether it's ours or another, uh, any other, uh, ones that are on the market.

Speaker B: So let's, let's go back to the Alicia superpower because I have watched you work with people who are not interested in learning more. They're not curious, they don't know how software is built and they walk in the door with a thing in their head and they want to stand on the mountain and raise their little scepter and be like, I am Thor and this is what we're doing and don't question and oh, by the way, I already told the CEO it's going to launch on this day and here's some pictures that I made up with a design team that I've never shown anybody.

Speaker F: Yeah. Yes.

Speaker B: That is a really negative behavior pattern, and I have watched you break that down and build trust. So tell us more.

Speaker F: Ooh. Meeting them, where they're at. Because, like, if they're. I like to. Honestly, like, I like to start with the simple thing of, like, assume the best. Even though, like, that interaction, it's so negative. Right? Like, when you're in a room and we've all been in rooms like that, and someone sort of coming from that standpoint, they're certain they're not going to move. They're kind of telling you there's no room for you to even be here. That's what feels like. Right? So I like to kind of go, wow, like, how did you get there? In my mind, not good. That can't have been a great journey

Speaker B: for you to get there.

Speaker F: And so then asking, like, I like to state things in a. So what you're saying is X, right? Like, okay. And then they're like, yes, yes. So they start to feel heard and they are being heard. Um, and it's the. I think the being able to see where the other person's coming from and even understanding it without agreeing, because I really don't agree with anything that you're

Speaker B: saying in that moment.

Speaker E: Right.

Speaker A: But I'm not going to say that. That's not going to help us out here.

Speaker F: But, uh, but just being able to say, like, okay, okay, like, I understand, understand. And then just that start. I feel like that just starts to build that little bit of rapport. Just the tiniest amount of trust. And then just being like, but here is how this piece works, right? It's like, I can't do these things that you're saying. And that is not a, uh, me thing. Like, feel free to ask other people, right? Put other people in this spot. Like, this is just loss of the universe. Can't. Can't go faster here, or we can do this, but you're gonna have all these problems down here. And, like, coming in sort of with. With these facts and then showing that, putting your cards very on the table. I think, honestly, transparency is just such a good way to fight when people are so entrenched deep into where they're coming from. Just being very open with, like, I've looked at all these things and, like, here's. Here's where we're at. Yeah, that's.

Speaker A: That's it. Yeah, it's a good point. I. You know, it's funny as you're saying that I'm thinking one of the things I tell my coaching clients often that's something that I learned in therapy a bazillion years ago. I lean heavily in those scenarios on the two words confused and concerned. I, I'm confused about what you said and how this fits together. And you know, so I'm confused or I'm concerned that we're not on the same page. So I, let's, let's see if we can come back and work it out. And part of the reason I do that is those words make puts it on me. I am the one not understanding. So please lean towards me and help me understand. Like they love to be like, let me help you. Right? And then so when they do, you get information that you can go, ah, uh, now I understand why I've been confused because this thing is not possible. Right. Or you can then take it kind of to where you were talking about. And I tell people all the time when you do that, the other person leans in towards you and wants to be like, let me help you. And often then you can kind of untangle the conversation.

Speaker G: Yeah, absolutely. As you may have, you know, may have guessed, you know, starting out on the engineering side, I am an introvert and I was just continually kind of baffled. Uh, I'm super achievement oriented. I could always study my way through anything was, did well in school and I think a lot of engineers like oh, I'll just solve brute force my way through this problem. But things weren't that easy. So over my career I've had to develop a lot of skills and ah, a lot of trial by fire because um, a lot of my natural personality, I didn't come out of the barrel of the cannon or shotgun, whatever it is, um, presenting as a leader. So I really had to acquire a lot of those skills and in particular I rose to middle management, director, VP on an executive team, just encountering levels, increasing levels of chaos, ambiguity, confrontation, um, that at each stage it kind of would push me beyond what I could handle. And so I just had to do personal work and figure out how to manage my emotions and calm myself into situations until I could rely on my natural strengths which as I come to find out as introverts, it's you, you know, it's thinking on your own, uh, having the time to think through a problem, you know, a little space there which isn't always available when you're in the chaos of a, of a company. So kind of at that, coming around the end of it, I really felt like I wanted to give back and like, oh, I wish I had someone who could give me some of this information. When my 30 year old self was kind of embarking on the leadership journey and, and part of what I discovered is that there is a tremendous amount of information out there. There's uh, I first really came up, uh, across it, uh, a book by Susan Cain. Quiet. She has an amazing TED Talk. And you know, I think a lot of people have seen it, but even then, you know, it didn't really seek it sink in until I really read that book and absorbed that information. And so my mission with this podcast and newsletter is to, to try to amplify the message and get, really get it out there. I want more to, to hear this and you know, ultimately I would love to help change the culture a little bit because we have so many biases against introversion. You know, introverted leaders, um, a lot of the way we run our meetings and the way we, we structure our business processes aren't favoring people, you know, introverts. And so we talk about introverted to extroverts, vice versa. Um, you know, really, uh, the statistics are up to 50% of the population are introverts. We, a lot of us kind of in the middle really find ways to manage it and you know, or uh, we deny it or cover it. And, and so that's where I find. I, I keep finding people who say like, I'm, I'm an extrovert. But I find more and more I like to have my quiet time. I need my time to recharge. Well, that's your introverted side. And I personally think that the, you know, the introverted extroverts are the most interesting. They spend time in reflection, they create room for creativity, that sort of thing. Um, so anyway, that, that's uh, in a nutshell why I created this podcast and get to talk to amazing people like yourselves.

Speaker B: I think that's where like that need to always be so ambitious. Like, I don't think ambitious is a negative thing. Um, I remember years ago you had to pick a word to describe yourself. And I picked ambitious. And I felt guilty about picking that word, um, because it's like, am I supposed to be ambitious? But I think I've embraced it. I'm ambitious. I like to do stuff, I like to do big things, I like to have fun. Um, but where does that become toxic? At what stage are you not doing yourself any favors? And the ambition starts to sort of like override what's really good for You.

Speaker A: Right. And I think there's an element of it. Like, I agree with you. Like, I like ambition, I think can have such a negative connotation. I think it does have a negative connotation, particularly for women.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I think it's like we're supposed to be nurturing and warm and all these things. And ambition is seen as drive.

Speaker B: Right. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think. But I think what's.

Speaker B: What's.

Speaker A: What I have come to sort of think about it is that I am. I am ambitious.

Speaker E: That's.

Speaker A: That's part of who I am. But what is my ambition going in the direction of. And the moment it kind of goes off the rails. And my ambition is now solving for something that I also don't want.

Speaker F: Right.

Speaker A: I'm just a cog in the wheel and. But I'm just doing the thing that I know how to do because I know how to do it, but I'm not enjoying it. I'm not learning anything.

Speaker F: I'm not.

Speaker A: Then your ambition is off the rails and now you are. You are likely being used.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker A: You have become someone that someone else is using some other. The organization is using your team, is using your bosses, whatever. Because you're not even like. It's not even ambitious in the direction of something you want.

Speaker E: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: It's just delivery.

Speaker E: It's just doing stuff. I'm not, um. This might be a bit controversial. I'm not the type to be like, understanding what my purpose is and, you know, towards the calling I have in my life. So. But I think ambition can be. I want to do a lot of work. I want to do it well. I want to earn a certain amount. I want to reach this kind of accolade. I remember my first job at Citibank. My. What I thought ambition was, was emulating the man in the corner office. I won't mention names. That was it. 21, 22, sorry, year old me thought, oh, that. That is. When I'm like him, I'll be ambitious.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker E: And it was definitely a case of like working longer hours because he works longer hours. So I was working on the weekend because he worked on. I thought that's what it was. Let's see your point. Right. It wasn't anything about me. It wasn't even chasing a salary, like promotion or anything like that. It was just like, let me just emulate the behaviors I see here.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker E: Until I was like, actually, this doesn't. It doesn't. It's not filling me with anything. My pockets with anything. It's not filling My heart with anything. It's just making me more tired. And it's kind of. I can't put this into words, but it's kind of. I don't want to talk in a third person, but it's kind of. You become a little bit of like a shadow of yourself. Like, you know, if you put watercolors on something, you just get a little more and more washed out. But stage by stage, you can't tell. It's when you look about like, I was at City for three years. Uh, when you look back and you're like, wow, I was really faint by the ends of that.

Speaker F: Right.

Speaker A: Who was. Who was that?

Speaker E: It was like, over the period of three years. It wasn't like, oh, I'm not becoming myself. It was just after the fact. And I really liked my time there. And it's nothing about people there. It's more about what I was chasing was to be. I'll just say it like a white man in the corner office. And I am the furthest thing. Corner office. I'll take. But I'm the first.

Speaker F: No.

Speaker E: And I won't mention the company here either. We were doing a leadership, um, course for the leadership team of this company. And, um, I think I was the only. I hate this phrase, but I'm going to use it. Person of color. Like. Like other people aren't colors anyway.

Speaker A: This color.

Speaker E: Right, right. Like, what color are you? I'm not a color. You are. And I'm not, like, you're a person of color. I'm just a person. And I think. I think she meant it to be a compliment, but she was like charity, you know, looking at your squid, you know, those score, the tests that you do. But, like, it was a bit more in depth with analysis. She was like, you really read like a white man. Wow.

Speaker A: Thank you. I don't know.

Speaker E: To this day, this is almost seven. And that's. I shouldn't say numbers that will give the company away, but I can't tell whether that's a compliment or not, or even if you're trying to make it a compliment. What a weird thing. So, yeah, that's. I've kind of gone off a different tangent.

Speaker H: So. B2B absolutely is not boring. The problem is, like, everywhere else, because I'm really focused on the marketing side of product. It's easy to make boring ads, and you can make boring ads wherever you go. Um, but the great thing about B2B is that the purchases are really complex. So if you're looking at consumer marketing, you're looking at people, quite often they're making impulse buys, they're not really thinking about it. Even if you're selling something like a car, um, you know, you've maybe got a couple of people and I know certainly in the UK primarily it's women who buy cars now. Um, and maybe the husband gets, uh, you know, opportunity to influence. Um, but basically, you know, it's a pretty simple, straightforward decision. If you're looking at B2B, you're looking at incredibly complicated decisions. So decisions that involve lots of people. They've all got different objectives, they all want to achieve something different out of it. And also you're selling a product that can be incredibly complicated as well. So you get these really long projects where you've got to convince a large number of people. And that's so interesting. You've really got to understand, you know, how a finance director thinks versus how an engineer thinks versus how the CEO thinks. And, um, they're all different. You get to work with all these different people. So it's just so much fun because there's so much variety. And of course, at the end of it, you know, a B2B sale is normally quite a large sale. So most B2B companies are selling things that, you know, can be in the thousands, can be in the millions. Um, and we've got clients, you know, who sell, um, solutions that are literally tens of millions of pounds. And that's so exciting when you finally get that deal closed and you can really see it and link it back to all the work you've been doing.

Speaker B: I think it's a, um, I think you're right and I kind of said that a little bit tongue in cheek because both Leah and I are on your side on this discussion. I think it's really interesting from a product management perspective and not something that a lot of our listeners may have considered. Um, typically when you're working on an easy or consumer product, you just think about your end user and solving their problems. Um, but I think the complexity around not just solving a business problem, but all of the personalities related to both, um, the approval of and the purchase of and the use of a thing that goes into B2B is really, I mean, it's quite complex. Do you have any frameworks that you use or you would suggest people start to think about when you start trying to get your head around all the people and stuff related to those B2B conversations?

Speaker H: That's such a good question. And I mean, the B2B, the whole product question in B2B is completely different to consumer

Speaker E: man.

Speaker I: Biggest red flag in the world is when I talk to a leader or an executive somewhere and they already have it all figured out.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker I: Um, and they're just closed off to other things. And it. This iteration is an iterative thing, though. You can, you can be confident that you know something, but you still got to be open to learn, willing to be like, surprise me. Show me some new data that proves or disproves this hypothesis that I've been sitting on for a while. Um, and, and if you're, if you're. Even if you're unwilling to say that out loud, if you're willing to entertain this, let's do things in iterations iteratively. Let's learn that way. Then you're gonna, you're gonna discover some stuff.

Speaker J: So.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker I: Yep.

Speaker A: I think. Yeah, I agree with that. I think, I think there's a. Definitely a courage gap. Right. I think along with an incentive, you know, incentive bias, I think there's a courage gap. And I think if, if the number we have in our head, that is, this is the number we have to meet this year, and this is the way we've always done that. So we're just going to keep doing that same nonsense and we're not going to take a risk, even if we see that the risk is moving us in a new direction and telling us something new. Sometimes that's exactly the reason to be like, let's not. Let's stop. Let's not do that, and let's go backwards. And it's just like, well, then why are we. Do I, I. You. You guys know me well enough to know that I'm the, I'm the one that's like, I'm not your girl. That's what you want to do. I'm not your girl.

Speaker B: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: Like, if you want to just keep going, doing the. You can do the same damn thing you did last year without me. You don't need me for that.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I think that there are likely people who do what we all do that are suited for that. Just give me an order and off we go. And I'll do the thing you've asked me to do and I'll collect my bonus and off we go. But I don't think anybody in this room is that. And it sure as hell not as much fun.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: Right. So it's. I mean, it's not fun to me to be like, uh, make this number keep going up and to the right. Okay.

Speaker B: Hm.

Speaker E: Cool.

Speaker A: Buy more traffic off we Go tell the marketing team to do that. You don't need me for that. Like, just pay Google some more money and off and we'll do, we'll make that happen. I. I don't care. It's just like it doesn't matter to me. If that's what you want to do, you don't need me. Right. It's not fun.

Speaker B: I think that the counter message to that, Leah, though, and don't you agree that just because you're here to push the boundaries and understand customer problems and really dig into sort of innovative solutions does not mean that you're approaching the problem without thought, without structure, without being able to measure progress. And I think there's this weird dichotomy. And um, I. What did you say? Courage. You said there's a courage gap.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and I, I love that term and I'm now going to steal it. Um, just because you are down to experiment and iterate does not mean that you're approaching this with chaos.

Speaker A: Right. Usually, uh, it means the opposite because you've got to have all the metrics in place to monitor, see what's happening. You've been down in the weeds in places that no one else has been in the weeds because you know you're going to have to account for what you're learning.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: It usually means there's actually less chaos, it's more tightly constructed. But to everyone else it's like this is madness.

Speaker E: Exactly.

Speaker A: Okay. It's not.

Speaker I: Right.

Speaker A: Yeah, it, it.

Speaker F: I've, uh, I've often been in rooms where I can tell that approach feels like chaos. Uh, and I'm sort of self reflecting and I do think in some, in some degree that's due to how we talk about it.

Speaker A: Sometimes say more like.

Speaker F: So something Marilyn, like you were saying, like where you when you started iteration looked so differently. Right. Like the time cycles with different sort of. The approach was different. And so I'm realizing like, sort of as I. As I'm sitting here,

Speaker I: what if it's

Speaker F: just like we went along this journey and we haven't taken everybody along and so there is just like this deep seated. Right. Whether it's in the incentives and in the structure and like how do you get promoted? Not often by saying, I did 100

Speaker B: experiments and I haven't cracked it yet.

Speaker A: But you know, maybe.

Speaker E: Right.

Speaker B: Like it's all of these different, like

Speaker F: all of these pieces. I feel like just push us to

Speaker B: your point to not have courage.

Speaker A: M. Well, don't accuse Marilyn and I are either one of ever not taking everybody on the journey. We've neither one ever gotten that feedback.

Speaker B: I get that you over communicate. Um, you give us too much, give us less.

Speaker J: You really have to kind of put yourself in their shoes, uh, and kind of go through that. So, uh, that's, that's what I mean by empathy. Empathy is that the word is not just writing it. It's actually knowing all the potential edge cases and kind of observing multiple. Kind of maybe have a cadence of visiting once a week or whatever. Um, and seeing what they go through.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So it's so important because I do think I. And especially technical product managers. I've had this conversation with several technical product managers who are like, well, but I. What I build doesn't directly touch the, the customer. And I'm like, does it not? Right.

Speaker J: Let me explain.

Speaker A: Yeah, think again. Are you sure it doesn't.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: If they, if the button gets pushed and nothing happens, you're the one who built the thing that doesn't happen. Right.

Speaker E: So.

Speaker A: So I just, I think there's so much. What you just said is so important. Like we have a lot of ideas about who customers are and what they want, but those ideas are worth nothing if you don't actually talk to them.

Speaker B: Yes, right.

Speaker A: And, and let me listen. I have been in so many boardrooms and so many investor conversations and pitches and things like that. And a lot of times people are handing out money on a business idea, but they don't have any idea who the actual customer is, what they're going to look like, what they want, who that, you know, and, and it's like that's the job of the product person. Yeah, right. I mean, I lose my mind anytime someone says that they have a chief customer officer. And I'm all, oh, is that person run product? No. Oh, um, why, why do you have them? M. Yeah, right. Like what do they do?

Speaker B: Usually they leave the call center and they think they're in charge of the customer experience, but it's really only the people that are pissed off enough to call.

Speaker A: Right, exactly, exactly.

Speaker J: And I mean going to your button example, for instance. Right. Like I remember my days at Macy's. Right. Macy's app. Ah, we're leading Macy's app. And you talk about the button and there's a lot of rage scrolls. Like sometimes some iPhone or Android app doesn't. There's no, nothing happens. And we're like, hey, these are like loyalty customers. Somebody wants to like, just think about it. And this is something as PMs we did reinforce. And I I highly recommend everybody reinforcing the same story to engineers and others because it's okay to over communicate. But like, hey, some mom wants to buy a birthday for her daughter and she comes to Mesa, she opens if she logs and she goes to all this forget password nonsense that we go through and she's already pissed, but she wants to buy that skirt or whatever and she goes. And it's like by the time she listed 50 items, scrolled and stuff, once she had to check out, once she goes to checkout, it's not available. This is the dumbest thing. Like she would spend so much time. Do you think she's going to, like, what do you think she's feeling? She's going to just close it and maybe go to like some like brick and mortar store or somewhere else and that stays with her. Psychology says like, okay, it's not reliable. Like I can. Yes. So, so those are the stuff like when we talk about, well, uh, stability or lack of crashes, that's what happens behind the scenes is there's like moms or dads or somebody is trying to kind of buy an item, give, Trying to give you your cash. And we're saying, wait a second. So this is how I would talk to you. Like, listen, we have people coming, giving it, trying to give us their cash and you're telling, you're slapping them in the face and saying, get out of here. I don't need your cash. That's what it is.

Speaker A: Your money's no good here.

Speaker B: I think that that really highlights the danger that, that, that companies will face. Why? Why? One of the reasons companies lose product market fit is because they get big enough that they stop listening to their users or, or, or really focusing on all the users. And you get this like stupid artificial title. I'm sorry for everybody that's got this title called Chief Customer Officer or Chief Experience Officer. And they run only the call center.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: And that's a fraction of the customers who are pissed off enough to, to call, but they may not be the customers that matter. Right. To your point, Ali, you could have so many shitty experiences. Sorry, language. So many shitty experiences that actually have a bigger impact on your customer user base, your loyal user base, the ones you want to keep. Um, and you, you don't know anything about it because no one from a product perspective is looking at what's happening holistically and, or looking for new opportunities. You're just trying to, like, you're taking a patient that's on the ER table and you're putting Band aids over small cuts and they've got a million. Yeah, like it's, it, it infuriates me that people don't pause long enough to really think about, like, what are all the challenges, especially with a big enterprise, especially with the big complex product. What are all the challenges we're trying to solve? What are the ones that matter? And go after those freakin first, stabilize the patient, Stop putting band aids on cuts that don't freaking matter.

Speaker J: Yeah, root cause. Address the root cause.

Speaker F: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, kills me.

Speaker A: I mean, the example that I often use, and I mean, people get mad when I do this, but the example I often use is like, when anybody wants to get flashy about a payments experience, I say, do you know why Amazon doesn't change their payments experience?

Speaker B: Ah, but what do you believe the fundamentals are? Tell us more.

Speaker K: Yeah, there, there's a number of interpretations out there. The way that I think about the, the fundamentals of product are what are those critical inputs that go into making some of those key product decisions? The most basic of those fundamentals, in my view, is writing an excellent problem problem statement and understanding that problem so deeply and so thoroughly that you just know you've got the right thing. And I spend a lot of time with my product team focusing on the language that gets selected for that problem statement. If the language is off by one word, it might mean a completely different thing. Therefore, the solution set that you select might be in the wrong direction and you might not end up having that problem solution fit that you really want. Whereas if you, if you go really deep into the data, you spend a lot of time thinking about the language of the specific, the specifics of that problem. If you get that right, you're setting yourself up on a really strong trajectory. So that to me is, is the most essential basic element of a, of fundamentals. Say one other key one that comes to mind is choosing the right success metrics. So this is obviously, uh, a big thing as a product leader and a product manager is how do you measure what, what I've done and how does it matter? And a lot of ways to interpret this. But it's essential to have a point of view. I think you're, you're, you can be right or wrong, but as long as you have a point of view, you're, you're pointing the team in a direction. And that is more important than just fumbling around. But as it, as the team matures and the products mature, having the focus on the right success metric, which will vary based on the product you're working towards and understanding that deeply what the levers are that's going to help set the team up for success.

Speaker B: I love. Ah, yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm just actually thinking about so many scenarios in my life. And Leah, I know you've come across this too, where that, that have an opinion thing. So when you're younger and when you're newer in product management, it can be really hard to have an opinion because you don't want to be wrong or you don't want to be argued with. And if you tell the team to build the wrong thing, like, you're going to be wrong. And I think that's the first big, brave step into, like, becoming a product manager is to actually know enough where you can have an informed opinion and you can set the trajectory for the team.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker K: And being willing to be wrong is the other thing too. When you're more junior, you're fearful that if you're wrong, it's going to be looked down upon, that you don't know anything and you won't get any opportunities. But in reality, I love to raise my hand and say, I'm. I might be wrong here, but. So somebody can check me on that one. That's. That's a superpower in and of itself.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and I think, like, I, I really like what both of you said. I think that one of the things that I think is a cornerstone, this is not about product people, but about leadership, is when you. The way that you start to inch towards leadership, in my opinion, when you're a young pm, when you're young in your career, is when you learn to show up with a recommendation. The people who show up to me and are like, these are the five options. I'm like, I could have done that. I could think of 10 more. But bringing me five options and then saying, but these four are nonsense, this is the one I would go for. Now we're talking. Right. Uh, so I'm curious what you think, like, how do you think people, you know, when you talk about problem statements and defining that problem statement, what do you think starts to separate sort of the newbies from the people who become professional at what we do? Uh, when it comes to making problem statements.

Speaker F: Yeah.

Speaker K: I think a key aspect of the difference between a more junior and a more senior product manager, in that sense, someone who has confidence and conviction in the choice that they've made and has the data and the narrative to back it up. I think a lot of times you could put forth a perspective on here's, here's the problem that we're facing, but it just feels a little bit squishy. And I think for outsiders that are more seasoned, you can see through these things. You can see when, you know, I don't think there's really a problem here. Um, and that might be based on tenure and experience and your ability to project confidence, but I think as people mature, they're able to not only articulate a problem in a way that is clear and you can just get it right away, but also there's a breadcrumbs, uh, of data that point to this specific problem, and both a blend of quantitative and qualitative data. And then I think that third part is a storytelling element that the product manager, product leader is able to bring to the table and get people on board with and convince them that this is the problem that they need to solve for. And then here are the series of solutions we need to go forth and address in order to, to build towards solving for this problem. So I think it's that, that package having that confidence, conviction, the storytelling, the data element, and that strong point of view.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. I think there is a misunderstanding that sometimes it's this vortex or there's kind of an addictive component where people just kind of tunnel vision into it and lose hours of their lives. I've heard of, you know, people being certain game widows because they lose their husbands or partners for a game. But I think this emergence and this new generation of players, what I'm seeing and what I love about it is this kind of opportunity to connect on a human level. There's social connection. There is an opportunity to cooperate and collaborate. It's not all about competition and shooting each other.

Speaker H: Ah.

Speaker C: Especially in a product like Skate or

Speaker A: a game like Skate, people are coming

Speaker C: to just hang out and have fun and do things. And nothing is more beautiful than people coming together to play. Right. It is an essential component of the human experience. But we don't do enough play.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, it's funny, I, I, um, think sometimes people don't realize the addictive nature of almost everything. Uh, and maybe, uh, maybe also the news cycle and, oh, you know, Reddit and everything else we scroll on an hourly basis is just as addictive as something like gaming, which does have that community connectivity element to it instead of, uh, polarizing attributes. Um, anyways, um, thank you for that. Um, I'm, I'm excited that you're here. I'm excited to be here.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker B: Very cool.

Speaker A: I was thinking I was wondering about like, do you feel like that there are enough diverse voices in gaming in general? It does it kind of depend on the type of game? What does that, what does that look like?

Speaker C: I think it's gotten a lot better. I do think that it is, um, it could be more diverse, most definitely. And I think you're seeing it more because I, uh, had a great um, leader once who said the games look like the game makers or feel like the game makers.

Speaker F: Right.

Speaker C: And, and I'm not going to lie, I mean it's, it's for the, the vast majority of my career it has been a very male dominated, uh, industry and for the most part, like, I think I've had a relatively positive experience, but I'm also a tomboy at heart. And in my mind, good or bad, I'm just like, without being masculine or changing myself, I'm like, oh, I'm just one of the guys. Or I just don't even like, for the most part I've, I've had the fortune of working with really great folks. There are certain instances where I have a stark realization. I'm like, oh, wow, I am the only woman in this room of 50 men. And it becomes very, a very kind of clear realization. Um, but yes, it's getting better and it can always improve.

Speaker B: Yeah, we've both seen that in our career, Leah. Which, sorry, it makes me laugh because it's almost. You have to, I think you forget that you're the only whatever in a room full of other people that are a little more homogeneous until something happens and then you're like, oh, crap. Um, and some of our earliest like alliance moments. I don't want to say alliance moments like it's some like secret like reality TV show alliance moment, but kind of

Speaker A: was, um, we would have kicked them off the island if they would have let us 100%.

Speaker B: We had already voted them off the island. We just didn't have the guy that bounced them. But like, some of our earliest alliance moments were like, how do you know? I see you not getting space at the table. I see you not being able to voice something. How, you know, how can I, like stop the, uh, stop the combo and say, listen, can you let her finish? Or I'm interested in what she has to say. Or oh, by the way, didn't she just say that two minutes ago?

Speaker A: Are her lips still moving? Please stop.

Speaker B: That was you. You're braver than me.

Speaker A: Yeah. I'm like, oh, do you see that person's lips still moving? Stop talking. I Will say, one of my favorite moments at Amazon, like, favorite and sort of sad, was when I asked somebody I made some comment in one of my teams about, um, that it annoyed me that if I was in the bathroom too long, the lights went off. And the men on my team were like, what? And I was like, if you go in there for very long, the lights will turn off. And they're like, it's never happened. And we then realized that there just weren't enough women on the floor that went into the ladies room that the lights would go off while you were in there going to the bathroom if you didn't move around enough. But they didn't have that experience because there was always another dude in the bathroom.

Speaker C: Wow.

Speaker A: They didn't even know the lights were on a timer. Right? I was like, wait a minute, what do you guys. What do you mean? And they're like, what do you mean? And I think there's so many times when we experience that as women in tech and probably lots of industries, right? Where you're just like, oh, you don't know what this is like. And. And I think I sometimes think, like, there are also moments when, as a white woman, I've been in a room and thought, oh, that's my friend. He's the only black person in this room. Right. Or, you know, whatever. And you're just like, oh, uh, yeah, okay. Huh. There's another only in the room, not just me. Yes.

Speaker G: Ah.

Speaker A: So those were super fun clips. I think there was some really good stuff in there for some from some really cool people. Um, both that we know and that we just met. Um, I think one of the things you said in the last episode is we've really had an interesting opportunity to meet brand new people who have been like, hey, can I come talk to you? And we're like, okay, sure. If you want to come talk to us, we'll talk to you. Um, and I love that. I love. You know, I think we've already got a few people that are like, can I talk to you next time season? Which I think is super fun too. Um, I love the meeting of new people and talking about this thing.

Speaker E: We love.

Speaker B: I do, too. And it's funny, that consistency and also sort of like the hidden gems that we get every time we talk to somebody. Um, I was reflecting on the conversation with Steve when we talked about the fundamentals. Right. Um, and his notion that simplicity is a power move. And, uh, you need to sort of deeply understand your creative craft or deeply understand the basics of what you're doing while everybody else sort of chase trends because you can't scale what you don't understand. And, you know, just, just the, uh, the power in someone deeply understanding a thing is. Is really true. And I didn't think about it until that conversation.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think for me, that ties to the conversation we had with Ollie where he talked about the. That, like, vision matters the most. When everyone else thinks what you're doing is crazy because you've got to keep pointing at the vision, like, this is where we're going, this is where we're going. This, you know, you're just kind of hammering away at it. And eventually my favorite thing about vision work is when somebody says something and I'm like, yes, that is genius. And it's what I already said, right? And I don't have to say it anymore. And it's no longer my idea. Now the team is off to the races with it. And I think we talked, you know, about some of that, um, with Ali around, like, how do you really drive vision into a team and figure out how to use language, um, in a way that gets everybody excited? Um, and since you and I are sort of natural, like, our expertise and our geniuses are in galvanizing people, we love that shit.

Speaker B: I was going to say, I think we both said at various times, you know, your job is done when your team tells you your vision and you're like, excellent.

Speaker A: That sounds. You're like, brilliant, everyone.

Speaker B: Right? We're all aligned. We're about to build something really cool.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Uh, and I think a lot of times it takes such a repetitive nature to say, like, I found three or four things and I'm just gonna say the hell out of them until everybody back to me. And then I'm, like, caught on. Right?

Speaker B: I'm done. And I think that's the. I think that that's sort of the lesson for me is about keeping it simple and the repetition. I. I always, um. You know, I always look at leaders that, like, change everything all the time, because, like, we're moving fast. Moving fast is not about thrash, Right? Thrash will slow you down.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, I think. And I think that that also. We talked a little bit about that, even in our conversation with Gino and Alicia. Right. Like, uh, you. It's not like you're trying to find the best way forward so that you can figure out what to do, not just doing stuff for doing it sake. Right. Which I think takes us all the way back to Alicia's original conversation with Us, that was about how do we do things better together? And that's like, where do you bring the right voices to the table to figure out how to move without thrashing? Right, yeah. Uh, yeah, there's some. There's real genius in some of this stuff. Glad we invited some geniuses to come talk to us.

Speaker B: I know. To come have fun with us. Which actually sort of like. Like, what a cool way to close the season. Uh, because I think that we talked a lot about that. You know, the fact that people need to belong and they need to be part of a group solving a problem together. And, uh, honestly, Leah, we're closing the season with a lot of, like, laughter and friendship and, uh, you know, that's part of the joy of doing this job. Otherwise I wouldn't get up, I'd stand, bed and read books.

Speaker A: Right, right. No, I mean, I think. I think if you. I mean, we talked about this in one of the episodes. Like, the. The job of a product manager is so much about connection. Like, you have to. Even if you're an introvert, even if you have certain, you know, like, ways you like to operate, you have to have some interest in people and some love of that connection in order to do this job and do it well. Uh, and I do think that that's been what's, for me, been fun about doing the podcast together, is we set out to say we're doing this. This is a way that we get to hang out, do talk about stuff, something we love and talk about it together. And all these new people then allow us to be like, oh, tell me more about that. It gives us little spots of curiosity in. In what we do. Um, yeah, you know, I. I think we're always learning, and I think that's. That's. It's such a fun way to get. To keep learning.

Speaker B: So that's the part of. That's the joyful moment for me for sure.

Speaker A: So this is, um, this episode will be episode two of, um, our Best of. And then we're gonna do one more little episode, so you will want to come look for it. It'll be two weeks released a couple weeks after this one, and that will end our season two. And then we're gonna take a little break and then come back after the first of the year and decide where we go from here. Um, so if you are interested in being involved next season, ping us and tell us what you want to talk about, who you are and.

Speaker D: And.

Speaker A: Or if you're just like, hey, I would love to hear the two of you talk about this topic.

Speaker E: Send us those.

Speaker A: Um, and then look for our wrap up episode in season two. It's gonna be fun. Bye, everyone.