187: Recognition as a Learning Tool Sarah McVanel & Lisa Anstey

Speaker A: Welcome to Learning Uncut, where we talk about real learning solutions with the people who made them work. Here is your host, Michelle Parry Slater.

Speaker B: Welcome to this Learning Uncut episode where we're going to be Speaking to Sarah McVanel and Lisa Anasto, and they're joining us from Canada today. So, yes, listeners, I have got up very early. It's still yesterday for them and, uh, today's looking great. I have to say, when they get to the future, we're going to be talking today about recognition. But before we begin, in the spirit of reconciliation, we acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples present. Today I'm looking out over Jalurgal at Burley Heads on the Combermery people's lands, and it is my absolute pleasure to introduce to you Sarah McVanell. Sarah is Canada's recognition expert. She's founder of Greatness Magnified, which is a boutique firm specializing in recognition, retention and workplace culture. She created, uh, Frog, which sounds crazy, but actually makes a lot of sense when you know frog stands for Forever Recognize Others greatness. This is a framework that she captured into a book in 2015 because Sarah's got, uh, more than 25 of experience as an organization development professional, a coach and a speaker. She's got so many designations, I couldn't even read them all out for you. She's an author and she hosts the Greatness Together podcast. And when we met in the pre meeting, my energy was so high that I couldn't not have Sarah as a guest on the podcast. So I really hope that you also, at the end of this, have the energy that Sarah portrays. Now, Lisa, Lisa Anistow is one of Sarah's clients. Uh, and Lisa is from a community hospital background. So I'm really excited to hear more about. How did you even get involved? Because Lisa is a certified medical device reprocessing technician. I'm not going to pretend, Lisa, that I know what that is. I'm sure you can explain if you need to, but many, many years in healthcare, including 12 years in leadership roles, the manager currently of medical device reprocessing at, uh, Waterloo Regional Health Network in Kitchener, Ontario. In 2020, Lisa was seconded to support the pandemic response for both her hospital and the region of Waterloo. And during this time, she played a key role in establishing the hospital's screening program. She managed the region's largest vaccination clinic and led the regional Covid cold and flu care clinic. So very important roles that Lisa's held. And in recognition of her contributions to the field and the community, Lisa was unsurprisingly awarded a prestigious Isabel Campbell Award from the Medical Device Reprocessing association of Ontario. So two very, very worthy guests, and I'm very excited to hear the stories. But before we begin, I opened and said that we were going to be talking about recognition. Now, anyone who knows me will have heard me use the word appreciation many, many times because of my practitioner status within Nancy Klein's thinking environment. That's where my influence comes from for the word appreciate. But today, our guests offer us even more than just appreciation. So, Sarah, can you start by helping us understand what is the distinction between appreciation, recognition, gratitude, kindness, all of these things that we perhaps might be talking about today? Can you walk us through the differences?

Speaker C: Sure. And Michelle, um, I have to say, we could spend an entire conversation nerding it out on the root of where these words came from to help give some really helpful insights into what they truly mean. So the Latin word, um, the roots of the word recognition are actually to know again. So what's great. And Lisa, as you will see very quickly in this conversation, she is a beautiful example of a leader who is continually trying to learn and know her people that she works with, as well as partners and peers and to continually make sure that she knows and she's knowing again. So that's really recognition. So when we talk about, everyone needs to feel seen, heard, and valued, and that is a living and breathing experience. Um, kindness, the root of that word is kin. So it's that sense of connection and how we are all, you know, related somehow. So being kind is actually building a sense of belonging and connection. Um, gratitude, interestingly, it is, um, it's actually based on the words around goodwill and again, comes from Latin. And what's really interesting is it's not a verb. It is actually. It's a noun or it's the experience. You cannot gratitude somebody. You can thank them, you can appreciate them, you can recognize them, but you can't. You can't gratitude someone. So it's actually the appraisal cycle that happens where somebody feels like their recognition is very meaningful and it's sincere and it's true. So that's a little, uh, little, uh, Soundbite. I feel like that was sponsored by the Webster's Dictionary.

Speaker B: I was.

Speaker C: Okay, that's so asserted. But, you know, language is power, and so it's Good to know what the roots of all of these words.

Speaker B: It is really good to know because it helps us to set up what are we talking about now? This podcast is obviously designed for learning and development professionals. So you might be thinking, listeners, why are we talking about recognition? But for me, the act of appreciation, the act of recognition, to know again, to recognize somebody's work, is actually all part of that reflection cycle. And learning doesn't happen until we reflect, as far as I'm concerned. So it is, is all part of the same story. But it is often, isn't it, Sarah dismissed as the soft option, as you know, it's not really important. Um, what does the evidence suggest that recognition does for teams or organizations?

Speaker C: Well, this is actually what brings Lisa and I and our stories, our career stories together is that before many, many years ago, when I was working in organizations, um, our team, our organizational development team, we took it really seriously that our role was to help the most highest performing teams continue to excel, but also teams where they were struggling according to their engagement survey results. We saw that as well. This is helping to give us a roadmap of who and how to help, um, some of those teams. Recognition was very low and when combined with other factors like overloaded by workload, high stress, if there was any incivility, so forth, those that created a bit of a roadmap as to what needed to be addressed and how quickly, urgently, we needed to address that. So, um, you know, in working with many different teams in a large community organization and we inflicted ourselves upon them, uh, we got it. We had to be really creative. I mean, the type of work that, um, if you're a medical devices reprocessing expertise, sadly, organizations do not signal valuing. Right. And Lisa, you can relate to this. Aren't the departments, uh, often in the basement? Yep. Windowless. Uh, people work long hours, often having to work through their breaks. And when the phone rings, are people calling to say, oh my gosh, you're amazing?

Speaker D: No, not at all.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, no, they don't. And yet you, you provide one of the most assist essential roles. Um, like what, what is the role for again, for the folks who are listening, who don't know what medical devices reprocessing, what's the role that you play in the organization?

Speaker D: Yeah. So medical device reprocessing mdr. It's found in pretty much every hospital around the world. It's not just local here to Canada. MDR is the team of experts that provide all of the sterilization as well as high level Disinfection for all of the equipment used in a. So as Sarah mentioned, we are totally behind the scenes. We're one of few departments that doesn't have that patient contact. Even our nutrition services teams, they go to the floors, they feed people, they nourish people, they have that connection. Pharmacy takes up the medications, mdr, um, the work comes down and the work goes out. So we are a, uh, hidden pressure cooker behind the scenes supporting healthcare. It is a highly specialized role that most people don't know even exists. A lot of folks will have that aha, uh, moment when they hear about mdr, realize, of course somebody has to do that. Of course there's science behind it. Of course this needs to take place. But we are very hidden, fulfilling this bible role.

Speaker C: That was my, that was me. So I was just gonna say that was.

Speaker B: I'm like, what, what's mdr? Oh, of course we know what that is.

Speaker D: Of course we have a clue what that is.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Um, I will say MDR is also a very, tends to be very welcoming group. If you are ever at a healthcare facility and ask the question, where's your mdr? I am sure you'll be welcome with open arms for a tour just to get a peek at, uh, the incredible work that happens.

Speaker C: That's so awesome. I think people should go, they should start asking that because that helps to make the invisible visible. And what a beautiful thing that is to acknowledge people by saying, like, I want to walk a mile in your shoes. And so, you know, just, you know, all of our listeners here, I think it's really important to highlight a couple of reasons why a medical devices team would be, um, very much at risk of disengagement, burnout, exhaustion, um, overload, so forth. I mean, they're again, they're not public facing in an organization that values that, um, they only hear when things are going wrong. There is a very high standard of excellence, as there should be. And still they don't usually hear or see the results of their work when done well. Um, um, and they also work very long hours in a field that is highly technical and yet most people don't even know it exists. And so you have. There are certain teams that are fundamental and yet often don't get thought about, let alone, you know, specifically acknowledged. So when Lisa and I came into each other's worlds, it was on the heels of, um, our team going and reaching out to teams that were struggling. Now we just established how understandable it would be that a team like this would feel undervalued and so really, our work, where we got a chance to start working together is by helping those invisible heroes start to make the greatness that they do every day visible to each other, such as through huddles and having. Did we start to measure that, Lisa? Right. Put it right on the huddle. A huddle board.

Speaker B: Can I step us back before we get into solution mode and just help us to set some of the context? Lisa, before you had Sarah coming in, you know, I'm getting this sense that there wasn't a culture of recognition in your teams. I'm getting a sense that, you know, to the, to the point you're in the basement, you know, nobody knows that you exist. Can you talk to us a little bit about the organization and, um, that sense of being part of that workforce? Did the staff even know that you exist? I mean, is it really kind of like you sort of hold away or what? How did you know that there was an engagement issue in the first place? And did that engagement issue also sit with a learning issue? Or, you know, was it that people were just feeling a little bit downtrodden? Help me understand the context.

Speaker D: Yeah. Well, for starters, you're dead on. Folks, uh, even in the hospital don't know what happens in MDR behind the scenes. Often we're not seen, uh, within our own organization. And I do a lot of work to try and build our brand, to share, uh, what we do, because it is incredible work. Uh, when Sarah and I first started working together, it was a perfect storm. The organization had gone under some change, in particular with leadership, and we had just done a engagement survey with our prior leader. When we got the results, there had been a change, and I had taken on the supervisory position. So that was my roadmap laid out in front of me of a very disengaged team, disappointed in the previous leadership, struggling for recognition. The incredible work that we do. And I was a new leader. Um, often when you become a leader, there's not a lot of guidance. You're given the key to the door and the code to the voicemail. So I was very appreciative of Sarah's guidance and support with this of recognition to try and build the team morale, or before we even get to team morale, to build a team that we are technicians together and start recognizing those things that we do every day.

Speaker B: So there was something in Sarah coming in which really helped that sort of team dynamic. It helped you learn to be a leader. How did you get engaged in that,

Speaker D: uh, in the first place?

Speaker B: Did you see Sarah Speak, or you just knew about her in the, in the world.

Speaker D: We were part of the same organization. She was part of our learning and OD team. And we started working together. And often in Canadian healthcare, there is a team, um, that is there to help, to support. And it's really what you're willing to put into it and ask those questions is what you'll get out of it. And I was grateful that there was someone that was willing to listen and give me some options and that those soft skills, the soft side of it matters too, and to make people feel good about coming into work. So I do tend to fall on the positive, the optimistic side as a person, the way I choose to be a leader, the way I choose to do my work. And it was great to find an ally who also has that positive and optimistic look, but also had those tools and those tangible things that I could implement to start slowly building that. And, um, from that time, well over a decade ago, I'm still doing a lot of the same. I'm using those same tools and those same skills learned all those years ago, because it actually makes a real difference for my team.

Speaker C: Well, and we learned so much from you too. You know, like, it was just. It was a true belief in partnership. And I know, Michelle, you. You practice this, you know, in the work that you do is that when the person who has some skills can bring that to the team, but they're also. They have to have a humility that they meet, that they don't necessarily have all the answers. You know, I. Although I knew and valued mdr, I'd never been in the field. I had never done a tour, like, I'm embarrassed to say I worked in. That was the third hospital I worked in. But I never stepped foot in, um, an MDR department. So. And I really want to acknowledge that, um, Lisa actually was picked by her peers, you know, when it was very clear that the existing leader and we tried to really support coaching and made a lot of resources available. We were there every day, my team and I. I was the manager. So a couple members of the team were all. If I wasn't there, other members of the team was there every day because we really wanted just to have daily success for everyone and. And building habits of recognition and connection. So we started literally the morning shift with a huddle where. Where people would talk about, you know, who is a. Who has recognized you, um, and, um, what's a. What's a great thing that happened the day before, you know, we would change up the question um, you know Michelle, for the people who are listening, the learning experts, um, I think it really speaks to a showing up and having that, those sometimes those really high intensity interventions when the stakes are really, really high and also listening to the people in the team to help to, to when they are willing to bravely make suggestions about what they need to be done, that what needs to change. I mean leadership saying we have to have a change in leadership. And when the leader agreed that despite all the support that was offered, he just wasn't the right person for the team, the team said, and we want Lisa. So you know, the relationship that an organizational development learning professional can build with the team as a whole means that we could boldly inflict ourselves upon Lisa and say Lisa, you've got to consider this. We will do everything we can to support you, but the team has picked you. Please apply. And was, uh, it. Did it take a lot of convincing? I mean, I don't know what was in your head Lisa. I, uh, was just curious.

Speaker D: I, I just wanted to make things better. I, I was the youngest person in the department at the time and there were technicians with over 30 years experience. They have been doing this incredible work supporting every baby born in that hospital, every surgery for d decades. And I just wanted to do right by them. I wanted the world to see the work that they do and the impact that they have behind the scenes and you know, some, somebody's got to do it. And I thought I'm going to try. I had um, a previous retail management leadership, uh, experience. So I thought I could draw on that some of the structure, some of the organization to help in the department and then lean on my skills as a technician actually doing the work to fully understand what changes we need. And then that's that missing piece, that's the support, um, to help me with the softer side that it is okay to do these recognitions, it's okay to talk about the good. It doesn't have to always be the hard business side of was really great.

Speaker B: That's just such a wonderful way of coming into leadership. I would love if all organizations said the team gener their manager from within because that is pure unadulterated recognition. We recognize skills in you that perhaps you didn't even know that you had. But alongside that, having the support and so many times organizations promote somebody who to your point, 30 years experience, that's a very typical promotion. And yet no middle management experience or you know, leading people is very different than leading the technical skill that you may have many, many Years experience in.

Speaker D: No, the people side. Um, it was mentioned about the pandemic response and the work that I did there as the leader. On paper, I may not have been the right person. I'm not a nurse. I'm an MDR technician by trade. Uh, on paper, I may not have been the right person, but I was able to leverage my skills. What I've learned over the years in such a pressure cooker of MDR and apply it to a different version of, uh, with the pandemic response was unbelievable at the time. But again, to still lead through a sense of duty. It's public health care here, a sense of duty, a sense of pride in what we do, trying to help for the greater good, but also recognize these people who are stepping up. When most people are at home, staying at home, behind closed doors, they're stepping up, putting themselves out there to help others who are sick. So it was wonderful to be able to bring that experience with me and do it from a people, uh, people focus first into another role, which is

Speaker B: just so lovely, given the support that you've been talking about that you are getting from Sarah and the team and um, the opportunity for you then to support others. It's cyclical. Hey, it kind of goes on. You know, we talk about pay it forward. I can see it playing out in reality. So here you are, a new leader in this role that, ah, people have kind of suggested that you take on with, you know, just one sort of set of experience from your retail background, but an absolute enthusiast and an enthusiast's

Speaker C: team in Sarah and the others.

Speaker B: So I'm curious, what went on? What were the interventions that took place? How did you encourage, for example, um, you know, uh, Sarah, how did you encourage Lisa with her new role?

Speaker C: Well, I, I'm, I think we did some coaching. Right. We made that available to you as. As, um, your onboarding support, which was true of all leaders. The same is not. Lisa needs coaching. It's more like we want to support every leader to have as easy a transition into their role, and that includes experienced leaders from outside the organization who are new to us. Um, so there's coaching. There's an emerging leaders program. Right. Lisa, you. You participated in that.

Speaker D: I did. I remember the crucial conversations part of it. And I don't know if Sarah will remember actually doing a role play of a difficult conversation and sort of of, let's put the elephant in the room. We know these are the challenges we're having with communication. Sarah and I will run it through. It may be uncomfortable, but Folks can learn from it.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And having some of those, those things that we've been talking about, that took some advocacy. So again, from, uh, our learning and development people who are listening, never underestimate the power of your advocacy to put the types of resources in place if you're an internal change agent. We didn't have an emerging leaders program before I got there. We didn't have an organizational development department. It was hard to start it. We did not used to go and inflict ourselves upon, um, when we'd see the results, the teams and say, this needs to be fixed. The team clearly has identified this did not have mandatory, um, beneficial, uh, onboarding, coaching. And so when we have a call to serve those of us in the learning and development and organizational development field and we can say, listen, there is data and evidence to substantiate the kind of support and intervention we want to give. Um, it can lead to things like what we're taught. What Lisa is sharing with all of us today is that the summation of all of those supports was due to responding to a crisis in a team. However, look at the leader. That leader that Lisa is today, she was chosen from within. Therefore, she was motivated to prove her, them right of what she did. And then when a pandemic hit, she was there to rise that challenge too. Um, she's not a victim of our team, is never valued. It's more like, okay, great, because we are always the underdogs. That means literally we could do anything, including a pandemic response. Um, and then now she's, you know, she's continuing to move her entire field forward, having, as you had just pointed out, being a recipient of one of the, you know, of the her association. So, you know, I feel like it's this beautiful partnership, those in organizations to advocate for what is needed to build the kind of bench strength that, you know, you need. And those outside of organizations, like, I know the work that you do, Michelle. You're, you're, you have trust advisors. You're the trust advisor to companies outside of those corporations. Looking at, um, you know, still asking the questions that may seem like silly questions, such as, so who are the people who are getting it right? You know, where, where is the problem not existing? Like, how can we go and learn and study that? That's part of what we did in the team is we looked at where the problem doesn't exist. You know, Lisa's and her leadership was one of them. But also there were microgroups that worked really well together. There were certain Shifts where it was errors were low and quality was high. And these are the types of things that we came in as experts, but we tried to also be learners. And because we were a novice to the team, we were a novice to the industry, and we also were a novice knowing what would work with this group. So I feel like we got a chance to be with your group, Lisa, among the most elementary of learners, and brought our toolkit and just hope that something will be helpful. And fortunately, you know, we. It was. Otherwise Michelle wouldn't have had us on.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, uh, I want to pick

Speaker C: up a couple of things that you've

Speaker B: said because I think they're really, really helpful. And one is about advocacy and one is about mandatory coaching. That phrase, mandatory coaching is very unheard of. So let's start there. You talked about mandatory coaching for leaders. Why mandate it? Why make sure everyone has coaching? Because coaching is expensive. A lot of people, you know, it's safe for very senior teams. M. I'm hugely an advocate of putting coaching where it's needed because if you've got this perception that coaching is, um, it's for leaders, it's for people that are very important, and you give it to somebody who just started yesterday, then actually, wow, they're investing in me in this. So there's a sense of that being a recognition in and of itself. But I'm curious. I don't want to guess why mandatory coaching, Sarah.

Speaker C: Well, I'll tell you why. And then I'd love to hear Lisa's, um, feedback, her thoughts on it. So, um, I had started before my first leadership role. I hired my own coach and it was a game changer in being able to reduce the learning curve and boost the confidence really quickly. So I thought if it worked for me, it probably would work for other people. And so I went and got myself certified so that we could make this resource available in house without it being a per unit cost. But I've. Since when I now that I work for myself support organization and I'm their, their coach that supports all new new, um, uh, leaders. Part of it is actually a recruitment strategy. So if you are considering a few different organizations and one of them who gives you. And again, in public sector you get almost the same offer. You can't have it like give Lisa, uh, $100,000 more, even though she definitely would deserve every penny because it's a publicly funded system. So. But what you can do is you can offer coaching and that will sometimes encourage and support people who otherwise might feel too humble to apply to accept a rule. They might feel like now that I've learned through this recruitment process just how much of a huge hurdle I'm inheriting with this role. It might actually mean that the right candidate is going to say yes to, to a really, really complicated, icky situation that they're walking into. The bottom line is, you know, anything that we know about the um, first 90 days of starting a new role that is going to be one of your, your biggest predictors of how the next two years is going to go. And so I'm, I'm a big believer that we front end the support. If you're going to offer it to them in a year from now, if they were high performers, why not make them a high performer immediately? Don't, you know, don't waste the best, most motivated, excited time that people have. Why wait until they feel like they're, they know what they're struggling with? Um, so let's, you know, give people the, the six months. That's what it is. The six months of, of um, it's mandatory because it's mandatory success. We're baking in, we're hardwiring you to have confidential, um, regular, consistent support for you and only you. And because everybody has it, there is no, um, there's no mistaken belief that, well, Lisa's having it because she's not going to be able to do it, but you know, Fred is fine. No, everyone's getting it because everyone deserves their best chance of having success early. So that's, that's the thinking behind mandatory onboarding coaching.

Speaker B: It's just wonderful. I just think the way you set out the argument for it, it's like, yeah, why aren't we all doing this? You know, if you are invest in someone because they've got a problem, but actually making people feel special, making people feel supported. So Lisa, how was it? Did it make a difference?

Speaker D: Yeah. Even to have a sounding board of um, a safe space to talk through things to build your confidence when you're a new leader. I'll speak for myself. You would second guess your decisions. Is this the right thing? Am I going too far? Is it too hard, too soft? So to even have someone in your corner that is going to tell you the truth, that's going to tell you yes or no, to help guide you, to help you through that is it's incredibly impactful for the long term.

Speaker C: Well, the nice thing is that coaching's also a beautiful um, uh, complement to formal training. So again, listen, for the trainers who are, who are your main Listeners of your podcast, it's not a one or the other. It's together because you can teach the broader skill set. You know, an emerging leaders program, it's these, these are the, um, soft end technical skills that every leader is going to need to have in the organization if you want to be in a formal leadership role or if you're new to a leadership role. Those are also the folks in the emerging leaders program and also what you're specifically dealing with, Lisa, with the lowest engagement team that you're inheriting compared to somebody who is walking into a back office service support team of human resources or the nursing team that just won six awards and has the, you know, lowest turnover of the entire place. Those types of things that we're going to now need to dig into will be very unique. And so learning the learning journey, it's about supporting the individual where they're at, as well as supporting the broader group to have some shared. Of course, coaching's, uh, not the only one. It could be pure mentoring. It could be learning cycles, it could be debriefs that, you know, so many ways in which learning specialists over the years have become very savvy in making sure that it's not just a formulaic, you know, anyone who comes and, and they started an organization, they have half these six things and we never change them. Um, so it just really, it's listening and intuitively tuning into what your clients are needing as well. Um, at that point in time, I

Speaker B: think there's something definitely in the end end user. So the end end user is not Lisa and Lisa's team. It's actually the patients in the hospital. So if that team doesn't come up, if all of those teams aren't, you know, working at their best levels, then patient safety ultimately is at risk, isn't it? So we're not, not, you know, this is not a corporate making food or biscuits or widgets. This is genuinely a serious situation. If the team is growing faster than the leader, then there's real serious patient safety at risk. So Lisa, just tell me how does it land when, when you're taking on something and people are supporting you to, to be that leader? I want to go onto this advocacy thing from a, from a learning perspective, from an organization development perspective. But, but what I'm thinking about is the emotion that you're carrying in that moment. People are saying, you're the one, we choose you. You know, I've kind of like, uh, got the image of Toy Story. The claw is coming down and picking you out. How can you, you know, because ultimately patient safety is at risk. It's a lot of pressure. How did you feel supported for that?

Speaker D: Um, honestly, it was hard. We can talk about the good. There was a lot of support, but there were also naysayers. There's always those few in. And it was difficult when we talk about some of the early initiatives, about meeting, uh, twice a day, having those huddles, having the peer recognition. And it's happened in every instance that I've had where in the beginning, it's almost like a joke, oh, I'm going to thank you for doing your job well. Yes, you're going to thank folks for going over and above. So there was always some pushback. And in the beginning it was there. And eventually when you keep at it, that broken record, saying it over and over, reiterating and coming at it as from a genuine positive place, it slowly turns where it is an excitement for the peer recognition. Uh, here at Wren, we have it in mdr where we have custom MDR at Wren, water bottles that the team can win for recognition. There's always a prize, little gift card in there for them. And it started from, uh, oh, I'm going to thank you from doing your job to folks are genuinely excited for this limited, uh, limited time water bottle that just a token to appreciate them. So it was a lot of pressure, but there was those folks again, negative almost for the sake of being negative and really pushing back. And you know, when I would second guess myself to be able to have that, that check the check in or talk with someone else and realize, no making a difference and we're slowly moving the needle, you're never going to win everyone around, which is, uh, a tough realization to come to. But when you've got the majority and it's better, that's where the team really shines. And I say to my team quite a bit, don't let perfect get in the way of better. We are better, we are learning, we are growing. There is no such thing as perfect. And, you know, don't live perfect. Get in the way of better. And I would focus on the day to day because it was a very overwhelming thought that this responsibility is on me and even those who were very excited and I'm going to come in and save the department. I'm going to make it better. Uh, that's almost tougher than taking on the negative folks. I can prove the negative folks wrong, but it's harder to prove the positive folks right. That, yes, I'm going to make a Difference.

Speaker B: I just want to appreciate you sharing that with us because so many times when we hear podcasts and read books and case studies, we just hear the good stuff. But actually, I'm appreciative on behalf of the audience for you to say it wasn't all just flowers and chocolates. There was a journey to go on. And I think this is why I wanted to talk about advocacy, Sarah, because for many people in learning roles, we may be the only learning professional in the organization. We don't have a team around us. How do we keep going when we don't have the voice in the organization? How do we keep pushing an agenda which could feel very different as recognition could be very different from a traditional, um, approach? And I just wonder, I mean, your energy is infectious. I can imagine being Lisa and having you on the side, that guide on the side to kind of support was just a beautiful thing. But how can everyone have a Sarah? How can everyone kind of get that energy and keep going with the advocacy when you know and believe something is right? Because Lisa's describing a very true story. Oftentimes you're pushing water up a hill, um, and, you know, you constantly getting soaked, but you got to pick yourself up and go again. So I don't want to bring it down. I want to bring it to the real time, the real space. So what do you think? How do we get advocacy when it's hard?

Speaker C: Well, as we know that teaching soft skills are far from soft. It's sometimes the most challenging to teach. Um, same with what backs up why those things are so needed is sometimes we think it's too soft in which to put some data around it. But actually it's not what matters. There is a measurement there, so you just sometimes have to pick your moments or dig in and find enough data. So in the case of, of when, um, Lisa and I came into each other's worlds, this was a time when the engagement survey, the results of this team, they were the lowest satisfied, least engaged results in the entire organization. So anyone who says to me, it's not worth spending a lot of time getting the leadership right, spending the time with the team on a daily basis, making sure that they feel valued, empowered, supported, I'd say, well, well, I don't know about you, but I kind of feel like the people who need the most help, we should give, huh, the most help. So. But also, you don't have to just believe engagement survey data. Why don't we take a look at the turnover? Let's take a look at the Absenteeism, the sick time. Oh, that's right. It's not just HR data and people data. Let's look at our quality, let's look at incidents and injuries. And if you wag your finger and say you need to have fewer errors, but the errors are because the departments are not communicating with MDR quickly enough. MDR feels like I can't do anything right. I'm not going to call them and let them know that there's an instrument missing. Meanwhile, they knew and they set it up really quietly. So it's really. There are so much data to substantiate, supporting a team and learning and development professionals. We don't need to wait for people to come to us. We need to say, this is the data that I'm seeing. What else is there to substantiate that? We need a significant investment. Maybe it's financial, maybe it's time, maybe it's energy. Um, if it matters enough, then we will advocate for that. And it's okay if people don't listen to us right away because we're not going anywhere. That's the benefit of being passionate about your work. Um, you know, when, when Lisa was mentioning about the naysayers years, it's the same of people in our field, right? People who say, oh, it's a cost center, oh, it's a nice to have. Oh, well, you know what, we'll put it off until next year because AI right now we got to do the AI project. Really? Because I'm, um, going to look around behind me and see how many people are lining up to get involved in that project so that their job can be done away with. Right? So, you know, we have to kind of sometimes help people to see forward into the future. Let's look at what the past has brought us. Let's look at the mess right now. And if we look down the pipe and we don't do anything, I don't think the story is getting any better. So let's maybe have a real conversation about that. And then because we've got the data, we're credible. That's kind of the way I see it.

Speaker B: You get no argument from me. But taking an evidence based approach is the answer, isn't it?

Speaker C: Because that gives us the backup.

Speaker B: It gives us the opportunity to say, it's not me and a whim or a wish or an idea, it's the evidence that is pointing towards it. So I can totally understand your approach and I think that, that your mindset, because you're coming from that uh, organization Development, bigger picture approach is why looking for the evidence beyond learning metrics, beyond that, um, sort of narrow field of data, but all the data, um, can help us to bridge these kind of two worlds between OD and L and D. So we get to the place where Lisa's being brilliant, she's in her role. They're no longer in the bottom third. I'm curious, Lisa, what did you start to notice? Um, what changed? Where did the team get to?

Speaker D: In a word, change happened. Um, people were willing to try new things. They were willing to put themselves out there. We went from one of the lowest engaged teams. When we did the next engagement survey, the results were so drastically different from the original. The company Qualtrics, uh, they reached out to see what was wrong because they'd never seen such a turnaround in a team before. And it was just by applying those, recognizing, addressing things head on. We went from the department that nobody knew about in the basement to being recognized. Our organization was involved with the association for Manufacturing ama, uh, conference, and MDR was highlighted as a tour place in the building. We welcome folks from around the world to MDR to see the world. So we went from behind the scenes that nobody knew existed to out in the world, people hearing our stories, being involved in corporate and organizational initiatives. And it's very true here with my organization Wren, I'm involved with business and education partnership with Waterloo. I'm supported to go talk to high schools. SHAD Canada, which is a national STEAM and STEM camp outreach into the community. We welcomed the Canadian association for Girls in Science. And all those things of recognizing within our walls, how amazing the team is, allows us to step up, to shine outside of that with our peer recognition. We talk about the little things day to day that are exceptional, that can make a difference. If somebody's having a bad day, someone does something as simple as unloading one of their racks for them. It's a huge ripple effect with taking all of that, the recognition and what we do behind the scenes and sharing it by welcoming like the Canadian association for Girls in Science. It's something that, huh, it's just our normal. It's just our day to day. Did you run the bi? Yep, it's done. Whereas if we explain it to someone else, this is a biological indicator. This is the spore strip, here's the food medium. This is the purpose of it. This is why we're doing it. It reinstills that sense of, of pride in the individual sharing outwardly. So it's really great not only to recognize each Other, but also the simple recognition of the work that we do, its importance and its role in a patient's health journey.

Speaker C: I mean I feel like it's such a beautiful way to also remind yourselves of the meaning and purpose of your work because nobody else is qualified to do this. And if you're putting something in my body, I want the most qualified person I want to go to Lisa and her team. You know, this is one of the fascinating things when we think about um, the meaning that happens that we get a chance to highlight. And I, and I think anyone listener who knows people who are those invisible heroes in their community, especially if they, these are people that they like or love, like encouraging them like Lisa's talking about, to bring people into the world, like make their, their greatness not invisible as a, as a group. Because when we do that we get a chance to re. Almost fall in love with the work, you know, like why that matters. It's so easy to say we have 16 trays we need to sterilize within the next, you know, insert time. And then it's about the tasks, it's about the indicators, the deliverables, the data. But actually it's about, we get a chance to make sure that we have done preventative screening for 18 people who may have cancer and uh, hopefully make sure that they have either good news or really quick care if it's not good news. Like uh, that's what the work is all about. And if people have a peer to peer and they've got a great relationship with their leader, then they talk about that. Right. I mean I'm guessing Lisa, that's some of what happens. What shows up in the recognition is the, is the purpose and the meaning and the impact of the work.

Speaker D: Work. Absolutely. And it's again sharing the work outwardly does fill a person's cup. When you talk and see people light up. This is what happens behind the scenes. This is. You do all of this for one pair of scissors is huge. And it's that recognition of each other, but the recognition of the day to day and that importance of the work.

Speaker C: I'm excited that you're going to get more people coming into your field too by making it not invisible as well. Like, like that's, that's. I'm so excited because the world needs a lot more Lisa's and her teens. Um, you know, the, we can't have care, we cannot have health care without um, your, your work. So I'm so glad you stepped up Lisa. I'm just so grateful that you trusted us and you went for it.

Speaker D: Thank you.

Speaker B: The ripples are, are clearly there, um, not just in your own career, Lisa, but in the wider setting as well.

Speaker C: And I'm curious about the wider whole hospital.

Speaker B: What does that recognition rich picture look like across the hospital? Have you kind of influenced that with, um, with the recognition approach?

Speaker D: I try my best. I try. I put it out there. Whatever role I've worked in, I've always done some sort of recognition. Uh, when we had the vaccine clinic, it was over 600 people that came together from all different roles, be it physicians, pharmacies, members of the community, students who are out of school, people in the service industry out of work that came together to make the vaccine clinic happen. And we did a cheers to peers where it was a weekly peer to peer recognition. Uh, it was successful. It was great. When we had volunteers come back, we rolled it out to include cheers to volunteers. So we have that. Um, the organization I'm with now, Wren Waterloo Regional Health Network, is really, um, shifting to a people focused and talking about thriving teams and making sure that it is a people first direction. So I don't know if I've influenced it, but I'm so happy to be a part of it because these values and this approach is really reflective of what I want to be as a leader at the organization.

Speaker C: Well, that's 600 people who knew what it was like to, to be in a team in an environment where people were valued for their contribution. So nobody can convince me that you didn't have those ripples because 600 people experienced the magic of it, not because you said it needs to happen, because they experienced it happening. And the reality is everything we're talking about, and I'm sure all the listeners, especially given that you're learning professionals, you know that there's science behind this, there's learning psychology. That is the foundation of recognition. Right? It's what gets appreciated, gets repeated. So if we want behavioral reinforcement loops, we need to recognize. So it's like that. You know, I'm not, uh, thanking people for doing their jobs well. Really, don't you want them to keep doing it? So it's, that's, that's the data behind it. But there's also another layer to this when it comes to motivation theory. So, um, self determination theory is that, that everybody, to be fully, to have your motivation needs met, you need relatedness, you need autonomy, and you have capability and competence. So recognition is a way of tapping into all that. We feel more connected to each other. We feel we're able to independently act, maybe even make suggestions for improvements. And then also we feel more capable and competent. And just like we talked about, the sooner we can make those connections and that competency loop and inspire autonomy earlier, the better. Which is like what we're talking about with the coaching. So, you know, I just, I hope that everyone listening really feels and, and experiences the importance of ED in a learning role. How much you can be the one to reinforce systems of recognition, to help make sure that the learning sticks and to encourage people to pursue more of it. Even if you are in a learning role where you are doing something mandatory and it's something where you have people who are prisoners in the room, you know, like they really don't want to be there. Um, recognizing the discretionary effort, the ideas, bold questions, any of those little things makes it not a chore, makes it a privilege to be in that room. And that, that's, that's an exciting thing that learn that learners or the educators of, of people, whether they're learners by choice or learners that have to be there, you can help to create an experience where what it note if they feel valued for who they are. Um, and then hopefully they'll take that back, um, and, and spread that to their peers, volunteers and give them some tears.

Speaker D: Beautiful.

Speaker B: Well, as we start to wrap up our uh, episode today, I'm just curious to know, is there anything that you haven't talked about that you would have liked to have talked about? Um, as we sort of close out on this, thinking around recognition, even if

Speaker D: it's small, it's important. Um, here if I have somebody that calls in and somebody picks up a shift, even though, yes, they're getting paid, yes, it's their job to pick up. I make a point of saying thank you that they came in. Recognition doesn't have to be the gold watch. After 50 years, it can be day to day. It can be a simple thank you, it can be an acknowledgement and it can be personal. Like I said, we've got the monthly peer recognition. It's a water bottle. It's unique to mdr. It's something that they can share as a team that's unique to them. And uh, it can be hard to get started again. Some folks may think it's a little hokey, but you stick with it and it wins people around and it really is worth it and it's so valuable. As a leader, I value my team. I appreciate the work they do. I respect the work that is done in the department so much. And any way that I, uh, can get that across to the frontline team who's there on their feet in, um, the trenches with the sterilizers, with all of that, whereas I'm in the office trying to advocate. Trying to make things better for the team. I want them to know that I so appreciate what they do and the impact for the patients.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: What I would say to add to that is I hope that people are recognizing their leaders who are advocating, such as you, Lisa. Don't forget to recognize the, uh, people who are behind the scenes supporting you. Um, and I would also say let's also not forget to recognize the people who share something negative, unpopular, who push something. That is the right sort of thing. Sometimes when the delivery mode is not positive, we shut it down or we don't want to hear it. But actually, a complaint's merely a poorly worded request. So unless you have cynics, the people who you. Nothing you say or do could ever be right. I mean, that's. There's a few of those out there, but most people, they don't get up in the morning to do harm, to make people miserable. So know that they're. If there's something there that is actually a shared belief, like, yeah, you're right. We both want people to follow the policy. And it is frustrating that every team staff meeting, they're like, is everybody following the policy? And everyone rolls their eyes. You think, you know what? Actually, it's a good point. We all care about quality, so let's do a quick quality minute. Let's start the meeting off with a quality minute. What are we doing really well in, and what policies do we need to do a better job? A following, like, listen to people. That's part of recognition, is I care about that, too. And that will allow people to channel what normally would have been negative, because they feel like that's the only way they can get it across is if it's hard, if it's negative, if it's like, you know, pressure. And you. You as a peer, as a leader, you hear it, I value. I see you. Um, and then you acknowledge it, and then people don't have to show up quite so negative anymore. And that's that big shift that I think Lisa was talking about. So I hope folks, you know, think about when somebody is critical, if they're. If they're not trying to be harmful, recognize the greatness behind that. That negativity, and then you'll be able to get more of what works, and they'll be able to bring More of their best.

Speaker B: Wonderful. Okay, well, thank you. I'd like to recognize both of you for staying late at work to have this conversation and also to uh, for sharing all of these fantastic ideas. I think there's such crossover between the work of L and D and what we're trying to achieve and how you can do it through this wonderful gift of recognition. If people would like to get in touch with you, Sarah Lisa, um, is LinkedIn okay, Sarah, do you want to share with us about how people can find out more about Greatness Magnified and your frog framework?

Speaker C: For sure. Come on over to greatnessbankdivide.com I actually the medical devices reprocessing story is in my first co authored book with Brenda, who is one of the amazing folks who are working with the MVR team. So Forever recognize others Greatness is, um, is a book that's available around the world wherever you buy your books.

Speaker B: Wonderful. We will make sure that the show notes have got links to the stories and links to the books and links to you guys as well. Um, so if listeners you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a review. Helps others to find and learning Uncut podcast and it will help us also if you let us know who do you want to hear from, like which stories you want to hear that might solve some problems that you're facing in your work as well. So do get in touch with me on LinkedIn and uh, we'll be able to bring you new guests that are answering the challenges that you have. Um, but for our guest today, Sarah Lisa, wonderful. Thank you so much.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening. Head over to LearningUncut GlobalPodcast to access resources to discussed in this episode. If you have a story to share on the podcast, contact Michelle Parry Slater on LinkedIn.