185: Learning as Investment, Not Cost - Tina Schust Robinson & LaTanya Foster

Speaker A: Welcome to Learning Uncut, where we talk about real learning solutions with the people who made them work. Here is your host, Michelle Parry Slater.

Speaker B: It's great to be back on the Learning Uncut podcast and today we're thinking about learning when it's seen as an investment, not as a cost. Let's begin in the spirit of reconciliation, uh, as we acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to the land, sea and community, particularly to the Comberry people, people whose land I'm joining you from today. We pay respects to their elders, past and present, and we extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples present and listening today. Today I'm joined, uh, by guests from Los Angeles. So it's still yesterday for them as I'm joining this recording fairly early in the morning in Australia. Um, but, uh, we're going to speak to people who are going to challenge the way we think about investing in our people. So Tina Robinson is the founder and Chief Exec of WorkJoy and she can tell us little bit more about what that is. And joined by one of her clients, Latonya Foster, who's vice president of People at Base. They're a global travel accessories brand. So if you've been traveling around the world, it is likely that you have got, uh, some of their travel products with you right now as you're listening to this podcast. Many of us do listen on planes, trains and automobiles. Um, but before we get into it, I'd love to hear a little bit more about both of you. Um, so Tina, tell us what is work Joy?

Speaker C: Well, thank you so much for having us on the call and I love your opening. I feel a day behind which I always feel when I'm talking to my friends, uh, on the other continent, on the other side of the world. Um, I have nearly 30 years of experience in what I call humans at work. Work, uh, that's everything from management consulting to hr, technology, sales and operations, as well as hands on human resources and leadership development. And it was in that latter role, uh, when I was working with multiple brands including Savage X Fenty, Brianna's global lingerie brand, uh, that I met the wonderful Latanya Foster who was the head of people for that brand. Uh, in 2017, I launched my own brand called WorkJoy to allow me to do the work that brings me the most joy. So specifically leadership development in all forms, coaching, training and workplace advisory. And I'm a brand new author of a brand new book, uh, that I will be talking about later in the Program.

Speaker B: Wonderful. Thank you. Okay, so, Latonya, uh, you met in 2017, and then the journey brought you to working together. Talk to me a little bit about what you do.

Speaker D: So, I'm latanya Foster. I'm the vice president of People at Base. Yes, we are an incredible global fashion accessory, travel brand, um, luggage rollers, handbags, all the things you need. One, yes. Um, I have been in the people space for 20 years and have lived through all the different iterations of what it means to drive people at work. Um, started out in government, then went to higher education. I did. I had my own consulting firm for a number of years, and then I moved more into data C and fast brands, um, which is where I am today. Um, and, yeah, my journey so far. Uh, and I say so far because I'm sure I have many a year left, but my journey so far has really, um, been about building and scaling the people operations. Um, and that's what I love to do. So I'm happy to be joining Tina. She's one of my favorite people, but also just. She's just so great to work with and has been just an incredible partner in all this.

Speaker B: Well, it's wonderful to have you both with us today, and I'm very much excited about your story. I mean, you're working Latonya in an industry which has had a lot of external forces upon it recently. Um, obviously, Covid hit. Um, obviously we've got things like the travel disruption going on in the world, um, shifting consumer behavior as well. That sense of, you know, should we be flying all over the world or should we actually be taking the train? So there's lots going on in that space, which creates a lot of noise, particularly around leadership. So I can see why you ended up getting together. And, Tina, congratulations on your recent book publication. Let's do get into that a little bit later on, but first, I'm curious to know about this strong case study. Now, this case study came out of your book, as I recall. Is that right?

Speaker C: The theme of the book, which. Which is called developing your business leaders, A guide to investing at all levels, My publisher keeps reminding me, Tina, if you don't tell people that you wrote a book, nobody's ever going to buy the book. So get used to, you know, saying the name of the book. Um, the book is written as a primer to help talent development professionals create a business case for investing in their leaders. Because Latonya and I have seen this throughout our careers. If you start with the how, if you start with the execution, if you start with the coaching, if you start with the workshop, if you start with the online training and then you try to reverse and you're near your way into a business reason, it's undoubtedly fails. And then you throw your hands up and go, why? Why did it fail? Because it wasn't linked to what mattered to the business. And so I learned that really early in my career. Um, it is the theme of the book because I don't think it's a lesson that's absorbed by many of the folks in our profession. I am blessed that Latanya instantly understands this and this is how she works as well. So when she and I were talking about this leadership development program for baseball, um, it began with a very clear business.

Speaker B: Why it's so typical that we in learning and development are approached by our, ah, stakeholders with a solution. They already have got something in mind. Everyone thinks they know about L and D because they went to school. And of course they come to me, oh, uh, I'd like a course, I'd like a leadership course or I'd like an E learning about this. And so it's really refreshing to hear that this is about helping organizations build business cases, helping them to really understand why are we doing what we're doing. So let me come to you, Latonya. What was the problem that you were trying to solve? If it wasn't a learning solution that you were coming with, what was the actual problem?

Speaker D: I think you're right. The season, the past few years that we have been in has just been so volatile. Right. Like there's just so many things that have changed in the landscape, um, in our industry, but just in the world as a whole. And um, I would say when I came on board at base, one of the sort of main task, outside of just continuing to build our people team, as we really built, we built it in house, was to develop the very fast growing team that we did had very small team for a very long time. And as we were growing, there were different layers that we were building into the organization. As we were building in those layers, the distinctive layer that we were building into was the director level. Um, and so where there had been a few people wearing several different hats across the org, we were now operationalizing that so that each channel had its own owner, its own leader, and therefore its own KPIs and just a team under that. So with that, you know, there were, it was sort of half and half where we had people that had been there established and had grown with the business. We promoted those people into the director roles. And then where we needed the support or had not had the expert in the business, we then hired directors into the company. Of course, that along with a myriad of other things, we were sort of in a learning crisis, right? Like we just had this whole brand new team of leaders and um, I think a thought around how we wanted to develop them, how we wanted to help them gel together. But there it was conceptual at best, right? And it's like the thought was, we have to get them together in order to, for them to be successful. We have to continue getting the executives to get together in order to get them successful. But we also need a learning path for everyone at the org in order for everyone to be successful. So that was sort of the charge and the mission at the beginning of all of this, right? And what I have absolutely loved and will always continue to encourage is the evolution of that one concept and what that looks like then when we first started versus what that looks like now and what we will continue to build upon. Because learning and development to me is an ever going process. It's not something like, oh, I took this learning, I took this course and like, great, I'm done. It is an everyday, yeah, I'm cured, I know everything. Um, but you know, we did start with a very like, specific diagnosis and like, we needed to like, have some, some answer to. But it unearthed that one thing on. We, you know, kind of plugged that hole, but then it unearthed a whole another subset of issues as time went on. Um, and I'm sure we'll get into the meats and potatoes of all of this, but I think ultimately it's the pivoting that really made this all work and like just the ability to sort of adjust slightly, um, as we were moving forward with the plans. But that is how we started here.

Speaker B: There's so many things to unpack here. Isn't the iterative practice, the networking, the pooling together, the community, the culture change. Tinia, tell me, how did you actually sort of get to the clarity of what specifically needed to shift, you know, how did you arrive at what are we going to do to work together here?

Speaker C: Yeah, and that's such a great question. Um, and I'm going to add to what Latanya was saying, because we know that middle management, they're the filling in the sandwich. So at the director level, it's expected that you can have managers reporting into you. And so it is such a pivotal point in the leadership journey. Um, because by the time you get to director, we Hope that you have learned how to be a good people manager. You've learned how to coach, you've learned how to give feedback. You made the transition from individual contributor to somebody who directs work. You've learned how to delegate, you've learned how to let go. Um, and many people get to director without having learned those lessons. So by the time you get to director, you're in a position to influence a whole level of frontline leaders. So it's almost like at the director level it's where um, and folks can't see me, but I'm like, I'm hitting the ceiling here, right? If you don't get leadership right at the director level, that's it. So someone's personal career path is ending. And if you promote people who do not figure it out at the director level into senior leader roles, you're really um, putting your whole organization at risk. So I find it, and I even said this at the recent conference, I was um, at the global SHRM conference for Talent. And I said, I find it just so frustrating that organizations in the spirit of flattening and efficiency are tearing out their layers of directors and middle managers exactly when that is the layer that is so critical to be invested in. And so um, to add to what Latanya said, the directors were the critical bridge between frontline execution and the senior level strategy. And they were operating as individual subject matter experts. They weren't collaborating and cooperating with each other to get cross functional alignment before going to the senior leadership team, they were going sort of one off. And when the senior leadership team would push back on them because it is such a small organization, which means every, every group is so tightly interconnected with other groups, the senior leaders would push back and say, did you talk to fill in the blank. Did you talk to M Social? Did you talk to product development? Did you talk to design? And they weren't talking to each other. And so everything slowed down because the directors were not a community, they were not a, um, a cohesive unit. And that was a real goal in their development is not just to develop skills but to develop them as a unit.

Speaker B: It's interesting to hear and I just want to, for our global audience, when Tina talks about director level and Latonya talks about director level, we're talking about middle managers, aren't we? We're talking about people who are. Ah, yes, that.

Speaker C: Managers of managers.

Speaker B: Yeah, managers of managers. Um, because I just want to be clear on that. What I've learned from moving around the world is that we, we have the same shared English, but we use it very differently.

Speaker C: So let's make sure that we're talking about that. Thank you for that. Yes.

Speaker D: In different industries, directors could mean vastly different things as well. Um, even within our own, you know, cultures like they, they can just mean vastly different things and might take years and years and years and years to get to that level in one place where it's a little bit more of a, you know, quicker burn.

Speaker B: Ah, but for the purposes of this case study, this is very much around those squeezed middle, they're often called, where they've got people coming up from below that they've got to manage. And then they've also got to manage upwards as well.

Speaker D: Absolutely.

Speaker B: To that senior level. And so it is about building peer relationships in order to have the confidence and the, um, the connection to be able to do that so we can identify and have identified the problem that you were trying to solve. And for learning and development professionals listening, I'm sure they recognize it is not an unusual scenario. But in terms of building that business case, in terms of really understanding, well, how do you go from. This is the problem that we have, we want to get a disconnected group of people to work more collaboratively together. How do you build a program around that? Because some might argue, is that a learning program? Is that actually a cultural program? Is that a networking activity now, whatever we're calling it? And I think as time goes on in learning, uh, our breadth and scope is expanding all over the place because the problem is never uniquely one thing, especially when it comes to leadership. So I'm curious to know, what did the program look like? Walk us through the program itself. What did you design? Why did you design it the way that you designed it?

Speaker C: So great question about the how. So I'm going to go back to the idea of the business case. So in a lot of ways, this business case began with the whole. It began with the audience. Um, which is a great place to start. You could absolutely start your case with the who to go. My frontline managers are a hot mess. And frontline manager, to translate that more universally, it's supervisor, frontline manager. You have on an org chart, there are lines coming from you, but it's one layer. So you are directly managing people, whatever that might be, rather than you are managing other supervisors or other managers of people. So there's one layer. Um, so we started with the who, and then we got back to the why. Well, why. Why is this layer. Why is this group of leaders so important to the business? How is the business being affected. Well, decisions are being slowed down. Um, decisions are not as thoughtful or reflective because they do not represent the true cross functional breadth, um, of the organization. Decisions, um, are made without the full, um, buy in or all the information that we need. Um, and in an industry that has been walloped by tariffs and supply chain and I mean travel as an industry being so, um, uh, disrupted, uh, these last few years, um, the organization could not afford to slow down decision making. So we got the why before we get to the how. We had to think about the what too. Um, but I'll go to the how for now and then we can come back to the what. But the how was. Let's make it a combination of skill building because there are some basic skills that these directors need to learn. Um, and we would use skill building in two ways. We would use it to develop that cohort. It would be very interactive. Um, it was only 90 minutes virtually because, um, it is mostly a virtual office, um, that's evolving. Um, but right now, mostly because of the size of the current office, most of the team is remote. Um, it would be virtual 90 minute monthly skill building over five to six months. And then it would be one on one coaching. And the one on one coaching would be a time to reinforce and personalize what each of them was learning. Now on top of that, this is where I leaned into Latanya and um, her CEO was you need to hold these senior leadership team accountable for working with their directors and holding them to the behaviors that we are teaching them. And they did a great job. So there was a lot of communication between me and Latonya to go, this is what we're talking about this month. Here's the content. Um, make sure that your senior leaders are aware so that that reinforcement can come from outside and on day to day. Because as a trainer I'm only there for 90 minutes and then one on one, um, there's only so much I can do. And that's really where you want the accountability to, to be where it needs to be. So we had about, I think we had, I pulled up our schedule. I think we had about five months. Um, because we were also recognizing that crazy time for this industry by, by November you're starting to get into the end of the year. So in any kind of fashion related space, you have really through October and that's even stretching it. By November everyone's brains are pulled away. So it was about, it was through the summer and then through the fall.

Speaker D: Yes. I'll pepper into a couple of things here, um, in the. On the onset, you know, as Tina and I were having these conversations, you know, and, yes, our CEO Adila Johnson, was also very much involved in this process. And I think that matters, um, because there was a lot of tone setting with her leadership. Um, so I wasn't the one screaming from the mountaintops that, hey, we have a problem here and we need to dissect it and figure out how we're gonna make it better. This was very much a joint conversation, a joint effort. Um, and we have her as a helm, obviously, that cares deeply about the development of the people on her team, but also that has seeped into the thought process of the rest of the executive, um, leadership team as well. So it's a shared experience, right? And then, um, so as we were developing this, having these very, like, pointed conversations about what is the need right now? And so there, as Tina described the, uh, program, it did look a little different at the end than it did at the beginning over those few months, simply because, oh, and I. And I. And this is probably very truthful, it felt like every single month something else was happening, um, at a macro level that we had to answer to. Um, and so that just shifted what the internal team's focus was on. And so you're trying. And it's a lot of whiplash in that because you want to stay, you know, to stay the course and say, okay, well, we set out to do this amount and do X, Y and Z. But it's more critical that you're also solving for what's happening in the business in that moment and how you can relate this beautiful L and D program that you set up to what's actually happening and not just like, okay, we've set it out and we're going to be rigid about how we're, you know, um, about how we're facilitating it. It's more about, like, meeting everyone at the moment. What I can say is like, yes, at the beginning it was like, okay, this is great. We really nailed this down. And literally by month one, after that first sort of session was over, we got feedback. We were like, okay, it's going great. Crash. We were like, oh, wait, we might need to switch one of these months. You know what I mean? Session three is feeling way more critical now than session two. So let's just switch things around so that we can meet the moment. Um, and to me, that was, you know, fun because, you know, we're crazy and think these things are fun, but it was fun. And to say, yes, we can actually, we don't actually have to just follow the thing we created and laid out. Let's listen to, you know, the feedback that we received. Let's listen to what's going on in the business right now and then let's answer to that so that this feels more meaningful and more purposeful and, and that those one on one calls that our leaders are having with Tina can feel more connected and not, uh, just like they're just checking off a box, which is what I absolutely hate anyone to feel like if they're doing any sort of learning and development.

Speaker B: I do love the fact that in a world where nothing has felt like business as usual for probably the last six years or more, having a program which is genuinely adaptive as opposed to a program which is rigidly fixed, I think it's the only way forward for anybody. So it's great to hear your story. I am a little bit curious though. How did you make it adaptive? You know, everyone talks about agile and we must be agile in the, in the business. You know, we must be agile in learning and development. But what did that look like on the ground? You gave us a hint there, Latonya, because you said, you know, month three subject matter might be more relevant in month two. But how could you switch stuff around so easily?

Speaker C: It starts with mindset. I mean, you can tell that Latanya and I, for the folks who are missing out on the visual, Latanya and I are like nodding and clapping at each other. Um, we love working together. Uh, we both come from a business perspective. So this is just how we roll. So I do think a big part of it is mindset. A big part of it is recognizing it's not about us. It's not about Tina the trainer coach. It's not about Latonya as the head of hr. It's about the business. And I think there's a lot of people in our space who start with L and D. No, this is the program. This is the program I set up. So mindset matters. And then I would reach out to Latonya at the beginning of the month and go, okay, here was the original topic. What's changed? And then she'd go talk to the CEO or would come to our meeting, having talked to the CEO, and go, oh, yeah, here's what's going on.

Speaker D: Yeah, I would agree with that. I also think it's like I mentioned before, it's a little bit of tone setting, right? So even when we started the program, we let it be known. This is for you you know, it's not for us. Like, this is for you. This is your program, and we want you to get out the most of it that you can. And so there was a lot of onus on the leaders going through the program to tell us if things were not landing and working in real time, not waiting to the very last point to then say, okay, give us a review of this thing that we've done for the last five months. And that's not helpful. The program's over. So as much as you can pivot in the moment, I think the better, right? So we were getting real time feedback in as the program was going on. So right after, you know, Tina would have her session, we'd give, you know, a couple of days. I'd check in and say, like, how. How did things go? You know, how was it? And I, you know, if we can talk candidly here, like, I think the first one, first one or two, there was just so many high emotions all around. Just because there were so many things happening, um, in the business and in the world that I think there was. It was a lot of, like, testiness to the program itself. Because, you know, when things are happening, you do have to sort of speak to, like, this, too, is important, right? Like, we can't just let this falter because there's a hundred things happening. There's always a hundred things happening. But, you know, if we are. If we as an organization are saying learning and development is important and a cornerstone of our company and business, then it has to be, regardless of whatever is going on. So to that point, you know, when things were like, well, I just don't have time to do this. And it's like, we have to speak to that and say, we hear you. So how about instead of doing this every two weeks, we stretch this out to every three weeks and we can give a bit more space. And, like, we don't have to say, okay, we're going to do this, you know, because we said we're going to do this every two weeks. And together we said, okay, let's stretch it out a little bit. We'll give you a bit more time. Let this, you know, particular week pass, and let's go and have this meeting then. And then to go back to the pivoting of the sessions, this is kind of the same thought process. Um, you know, we're thinking like, okay, this is a real business challenge that we're going through in this moment. This feels way more connected than, um, to what we're supposed to be talking About a month and a half from now. How about we just turn it around and switch it? What we did though at the beginning is we laid out all the sessions so everyone knew what the content was. And the end result truly will be the same if you just kind of switch a couple of things around because they're all connected. So it wasn't like, oh, you have to have one and two before you do three. It's just, hey, at the end of this five months, you are going to have all of these concepts and they all work in tandem with each other. And that's what we want you to get out of it. The road to get there can be changed. You know what I mean? We can make a left instead of a right, we can make a right instead of a left, but at the end of the day the destination will always be the same.

Speaker B: Yeah, M. That in and of itself is part of the education, isn't it? The ability to pivot, the ability to notice what's going on around you, the ability to respond and be adaptive in real time. Business need.

Speaker D: Great point.

Speaker B: Demonstrating that to the Smiddle management cohort I'm sure would have made a difference. Now that's my assumption. But what about actually proving the value? Did you see behavior change? Did you, did you demonstrate that something shifted in this five month period?

Speaker D: Yes, but I won't say it was immediate. Um, the demonstration of the behavior really started with the conversation around it, right? So when we were like at an off site, closer to the end of the program, you could hear the nomenclature being used, right? And you could hear some of these concepts just kind of woven into everyday conversations. Now whether they were using them or not is part two, but I think part one is really that it was, you could tell it was seeping in. I also think there was a lot of change behavior just in terms of the cohesiveness on like, uh. Because I think there was now a shared language specific to the director group that the other thing, even as execs, M knew what this concept were, but we weren't learning it in the same way that they were or we weren't tied to it. And that's what we wanted this to be, because we wanted it to be theirs. And so there was definitely by the end a lot more connectivity that was starting to be shown. But the first time I absolutely recall noticing that there was changed behavior was that we were in an exec meeting and just like kind of just talking about a couple of different things. And one of the other execs mentioned that she was in a meeting with a few of the directors and just was so highly. She had so many great things to say, say about like how they were collabing together. And so much of what she was saying was so intertwined with how the setup of the, the um, altitude was, was set up. And so, you know, I remember recalling and, and saying like, uh, this is a testament to the program. They just went in. Like I want to call that out in real time because this, we are finally seeing like fruits of that labor. Right. And so, and the, the, the catalyst of that was really keeping it top of mind. Right? So like they, we had a program for them at toward the end where you know, we really spoke to like, what did they learn? And like, it wasn't just like a final, um, last session, it was like, okay, let's close it out and then how are you going to pull this forward? And Tina and I both are very much connected on this piece in particular, which is you never just let it die. Right. Like, you have to continue pulling these development programs into everything else. So like it's a part of their toolkit now. And so now as we're having conversations, if we have new directors, we pull them into the altitude conversation. Like, sure, they weren't there for the full cohort, but now they need to learn what those um, directors learn so they have the shared language. We will call this back as often as we can. So it's not just, you know, a dropped dead language that they have. But as we continued to see that the directors were doing so many of the outcomes that we were hoping would come out. So, you know, we called it, by the end of this, you should be, we want, we hope that you're doing X, Y and Z. They were doing it. You know what I mean? Like involving the executive, the executive team far less on decisions they should be making. Right. Coming together as a team, you know, creating these like cohorts on their own. It was just, it's been really awesome to see, if I'm being honest. Um, but it also has been a slow process, which to me on this side of things is always important too is that some of these things aren't fast results. Right. Like, we have to let it breathe in order to see in real time whether or not it's working. Um, and so we're like six months out since the end of that program. And I would say like leaps in bounds, leaves, leaves, leaves and bounds, um, from where we started, which was almost a year ago at this point.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I Just want to call out, um, Latonya made reference to altitude. So it is a travel accessories brand. And so she and I, even without having any cocktails, we sat and we brainstormed words that evoke travel as well as growth. And I forgot which one of us came up with altitude. We had a whole bunch on a whiteboard and we're like, altitude. Because then it's a plane. You reach altitude. Um, I don't know. And it landed with everybody.

Speaker B: Um, it's the care that you've actually taken to this program. That level of minute detail which I think also reflects the brand. Your high end brand is a care for your customers. Um, and this really does reflect, and I often say, speak the language of your business. That genuinely is the language of your business. And these things matter. What you're describing, Latonya is a shift towards a learning culture. You're moving people to thinking about how they can grow and connect in their own time without the guidance of a coach, without the guidance of a learning program. And I love your comment there. We have to let it breathe to see if it's working. So many people in learning and development measure learning on the immediacy of the outcome. So here is the happy sheet. You know, did you like the trainer? How good were the biscuits or the cookies? We're talking to an American audience here. You know, did that make a difference? When actually you've talked about a slow burn, a slow process, things have seeped in. And it's language that we keep coming back to language. You described how language was seeping in. People were describing things in that nometric. I can't, I can't say it. Nomadical

Speaker D: culture. And I can't even tell you more nomenclature.

Speaker B: So the language is really important. Um, and it's, it's so different than how many people measure learning, which is how many people turned up, how many elearnings did we get finished? Um, so this is really demonstrating how we prove value. But one thing we haven't talked about that I'm curious about, you said at the beginning how you and your CEO talked about this program. You and your CEO were on the same page. And if I was to speak to your CEO, uh, what do you think that they would describe are the signs? Because they have invested in this program, they've put money behind it, they've put time behind it, they've encouraged their senior leaders to get behind it. How would the CEO describe this? Would it be with the same words? Would it be in the same way? Um, when it comes to that return on investment, which is what a lot of people want in terms of proven value, would they say that there has been a return on the investment?

Speaker D: That's a great question. I would unequivocally say yes. She would share my sentiments about the growth of that team, the cohort in particular, um, the level of that, you know, org. But I also think that she would agree that it's been a slow burn, right. And that even though we may want a little bit more immediacy around these things because, you know, we are answering to business challenges in real time, there is still something to be said when we're looking at the same team six months later and can completely say, oh no, like this is different. You know what I mean? Like this is a different team. Um, and so I would strongly think that she would echo those sentiments, um, on the back end. But also, you know, going into it, there were so much connectivity that we had in developing this so that, you know, not only her being on board with it, but just again, the rest of the executive team as well, because the buy in is really important for us. But I also think, to your point, that that's so much about like this, each culture of the, each business, right? So like that's ours here at base is that, you know, we are very, very rooted in our own values. And so, you know, and one of those happens, you know, just to be about connection and connectivity and um, development. So if it's in our values, you know, we need, we want to like, stand firm in taking the time to do it. Right. But I think she would ultimately, you know, agree that there's been some monumental

Speaker B: growth happening when it comes to building the business case. That business case is rooted in the business. It's not rooted in learning, which is something that you said earlier. You know, I want to come to you because there's a challenge in our profession. Learning is often seen as a nice to have. And I feel that that's when we are papering over the cracks where we're being responsive to what we're being asked for. Here is, uh, a learning program because somebody's asked for a learning program. This is not that you have rooted this program very, very carefully and respectfully in the language in the business itself, you know, even down to the detail of the word that you call the program. And so where does the responsibility for that sit? Is that with the organizations coming to us as learning professionals to say we want this, or is that the gift that we give as a business partner to a Learning professional. So help me to understand, you know, you're clearly, uh, a consultative, um, person in your approach. Um, what advice have you got for our profession? You know, the urgency to jump straight into the solution. That's not what you've done. You've built credibility and so on and so forth. So talk to me, Tina, about how do we partner more productively?

Speaker C: That's such a delicious question. And I think one of the things that bonded Latonya and I early on when we were both working at Savage and so there were multiple brands and I was the head of leadership development, I was leadership development. That was, it was me. And I would go to latonya and I would say, what is your business need? And then she sort of look at me and go, wow. Rather than, here's what L and D Org Dev Talent Dev has on its to do list for 2022. I would say, what is your business need? And then I would connect the dots and I, I would listen for the alignment with programs that we already had that we were doing with other brands. Or I would go, okay, you need something that we're not offering yet, or you don't need one of the programs that we want to push out to the business. You don't need it, you don't want it. It's not relevant. I'm not going to waste everybody's time. And so I had to take a little bit of a professional risk to be that business partner because I had to manage up through my own org chart. I do think that there is some courage that people in our industry have to have. Um, and I would, and I think latonya would probably feel the same way being head of HR is that there is HR initiatives and latonya had sort of dual reporting as well to the global chro from multiple brands as well as the head of her own brand. You know, to say, what is, what does the business need? It's not about me, but that takes courage, it takes experience. And I know for me, having grown up in this profession, I have made sure to have mentors and role models who were really good at this. And I also made sure to. To have mentors and role models outside of HR and outside of learning and outside of talent. So I wasn't locking myself into some kind of echo chamber.

Speaker B: It's something that we can all do then, isn't it? It doesn't matter where you are in your career of learning and development. You can ask the question, you can talk that business language and you can build the business case. With that partner from the other side of it, Latonya, you know, being asked that question, as opposed to, here is our course catalog, which, you know, what do you want? How does that feel?

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, incredible. Um, you know, I think it was really just divine timing with that, because even at Savage, like, my direct leadership was also very in tune with just development, right? And wanting that for the team, which I have just been chronically blessed with, I think, over the last few leaders that I've had, is that they understand the importance of development as a concept. But then I always see my role as the bridge, obviously, between a true L and D person, because that is not. I'm vastly, you know, impressed and can speak to it, but it is not my. My role, right? And, you know, I always call Tina the wizard of this, because it is. She speaks the language just innately. But I am the bridge, right? And between the business and any HR function, truly. But in this one in particular, in saying, okay, well, let's talk through a very high level, but then tactically about what we need in the business to develop our people and to, you know, make the right return of the investment for any sort of learning and development that we do. And then, so hearing that, when I talk to Tina, I'm like, we could do a lot of good things because I don't have to fit the needs of our business in this square box, right? And say, okay, well, these are the offerings, and I have to go with these offerings. And, like, you know, everything just feels like it was pulled right off of a shelf, and, like, there's room for that. And I'm not suggesting, if that's all you got, that you can't make it work. But there's so much more that you can do if you plan to be somewhere for a long time when you can create something that's worthwhile specifically to that business. And so, like, again, hearing that, you know, was like magic to me. Um, so, like, probably the second call I made after I got my feet, you know, bearings at base, was calling Tina once. I was like, okay, great. Like, I know. I know exactly what I'm going to do now. Um, because, you know, I know we need development. I know there's appetite for it. So the call meant the same thing. You know what I mean of saying, like, what do you need? Um, and that's the constant question, right? Like, it's, what do you. What. What do you need today? What do you need now? What do you need in this season? And it makes it so much more in so much more valuable.

Speaker B: It's very much what you described earlier in terms of how you could pivot within the program. Because you're constantly asking that question for the people that are on the program. It's not fix. This is the pathway that we're on. It's actually, what do you need for this to be useful?

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker B: This has just been such a wonderful case study. I really appreciate you, uh, sharing it with us. So, Tina, you have pulled, uh, together your wisdom into a book. Um, ah, out March 2026. So quite recent. I'm curious, who did you write it for and what do you hope readers take away, um, from it? If someone picks it up and they're a solo L and D professional in a small organization with no budget, no support, what are you giving them?

Speaker D: There's.

Speaker C: I may have written it for the five year old Tina, who, you know, was writing in crayon and thought, you know, someday I could write something longer. Um, so I was very, very fortunate to be asked to write this book by the Global association for Talent Development, or atd, um, uh, which has, um, a very large publishing arm. And they liked that. This book was unlike a lot of the other how to leadership books out there because most of those books are, here's how to coach, here's how to train. Here is a whole book of training games you can play. And I have all those on my shelf. They're great. Um, I have lots of execution tools. And I would joke that if you go to a large HR conference and you're walking the expo, it is a gleaming tribute to the how to solutions. There is no vendor there that has a little sign that says, we help you define the why with a little box of candy. Right. Um, or some pens. No. Everything there is assuming that you have identified the business need. You have defined the critical behaviors and standards, skills and competencies. You've narrowed down your audience. They've assumed that you've done all of it. But most people walking that large conference room have not. And they're buying a solution without first having thought about this. So ideally, my book can be read by anyone who calls themselves a leadership investor, that is a CEO, that is a head of marketing, that is a cfo, that is a founder, um, that is ahead of a function, that is a chief of people, that is Latonya, that is a head of talent. Um, but I never wanted my book to be narrowly focused on talent or hr, so I intentionally called my audience, uh, leadership investors. And I think it's anybody who believes that Leadership development is a business investment and not a program. Program. Um, and so you could probably tell from the banter that you heard with Latonya and myself that we're funny. So I wove a lot of humor in there. I wove stories. Um, I anonymized the stories. Um, but I wanted to make it real and practical and really like a field guide, um, that helps people start with, like, you do not have to default to the how you can reverse engineer back up into the why.

Speaker B: Wonderful. Well, I'm looking forward to having a look at it myself. Um, if you were either of you have got any final things that have been left unsaid, what would you leave our listeners with? Sort of one thing they could take back to their organization this week, perhaps what's not been said yet. Latonya, let's come to you first as we wrap up.

Speaker D: Yeah, I think just in the spirit of all the things that we've talked about today, um, one of the things I think everyone could take away from just in life in general is like, don't be scared of the pivot. Right. It really does mean something to just be able to be agile and to be nimble, um, and not get stuck or rigid in a plan. Right. Because that is just not learning in concept. Learning is just that it is about, like, hey, I thought one thing. Now I know more. So I'm thinking another thing, right? Like, that's literally how we learn. So I, you know, that is one thing I would love anyone to just take away about just the thought of learning and development is being able to pivot is a really, really great thing to do.

Speaker C: Yeah. I remember when Latonya came to me and we had our beginning of the month, what's going on in the business chat. And she said, tina, this next session has to be about teaching the directors how to show their work. Uh, and I just paused for, like, five seconds, and I'm like, oh, my God. Okay, okay. What does that mean? And I just had to go, fascinating. Okay, tell me more. And I think even just that pause to get into a place of curiosity to go, oh, we can do something with that. And we did. We ended up having a fabulous session. And that's become almost a code word at the organization now of show my work.

Speaker D: Part of the nomenclature.

Speaker C: It is the nomenclature.

Speaker D: Yes. Of our organization. You hear people say it a lot. I had to show my work, so. And then they'll, you know, walk through how they made a decision or walk through, you know, a specific plan. And I love that. Wonderful.

Speaker C: And I want to echo what Latanya said. Um, my plea to the people in our field is build a large toolbox so that nothing throws you, so that you really can go to a place of curiosity and not panic. So when somebody says, I need something around showing your work, you don't go, I don't have that. You go, huh, huh. Okay, I can do that. I can make that work.

Speaker B: Beautiful. What a lovely way to end. Now, I'm sure that, um, people will want to reach out to you, so if you're happy for them to connect with you on LinkedIn, we'll be sure to put your, uh, contact details into our, ah, show notes, of course, alongside your book, um, Tina, and a link to that as well. Just want to say thank you so, so much to both of you. This has genuinely been a practical, honest conversation about what it takes to make learning investments in stick, to sort of build that business case and to genuinely partner with each other. It's been lovely to see the energy bouncing between the two of you, and I'm sure that that will come through to our listeners as well. So thank you so much. Ah, until next time on Learning Uncut Podcast, um, have a look at how you personally could ask better questions, even if it's the one that Tina's just given you. Tell me more.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening. Head over to LearningUncut GlobalPodcast to access resources discussed in this episode. If you have a story to share on the podcast, contact Michelle Parry Slater on LinkedIn.