186: Building L&D from Scratch - Elyse Toomey

Speaker A: Welcome to Learning Uncut, where we talk about real learning solutions with the people who made them work. Here is your host, Michelle Parry Slater.

Speaker B: Welcome to Learning Uncut. We're going to be thinking today about what it takes to start from nothing and to build up to something that works. Before we begin in the spirit of reconciliation, let me acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and, um, community. We pay our respect to elders, past and present, and we extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples present today or listening online. It is my absolute pleasure today to talk to Elise. Elise will introduce herself a little. Um, but what an amazing opportunity to talk to somebody who's literally started a learning and development department from virtually nothing. And we're going to hear what it takes to, uh, make that work. And you will not be surprised to hear that this story involves thinking about strategy. So, Elise, tell us a little bit about who you are and where you work.

Speaker C: Yes, thanks, Michelle. Um, well, yes, so my name is Elise. My role currently now is, um, head of learning and development. And I've worked in the financial services industry now for 20 years. So, uh, we are a diversified financial services business. So recently we've actually done a rebrand. We are now Ironbark Financial Group and we look after three, uh, financial advice or financial services, uh, businesses. Um, and, yeah, I guess, like you said, um, 20 years in the industry. I didn't start out in L and D. I actually worked for over 10 years in the financial advice teams. Um, so did a relationship manager role and worked my way into hr and then, fortunately, in the last three years, was given the opportunity. I'd like to think of starting out a learning and development function from scratch.

Speaker B: It is an absolute, um, typical route in that we come into L and D having done the work ourselves. So I'm sure that that stood you in very good stead. But paint the picture for us a little bit. Um, when it was InvestBlue and now, as you say, Ironbark, you came into this role. What, what did L and D look like at the time? Was there anything?

Speaker C: Oh, well, there was something. It was very fragmented. So we had, um, I think at the time there's about just over 300 employees. Um, about 100 of them are offshore. I think we're sort of sitting now at around 550. Um, we had what were known as our client experience coaches and our advice and compliance coaches. So we had a very strong coaching model where, um, a lot of these coaches sat, um, across the business in what we had as village structures. So we would have a lot of our financial advice teams that fed, uh, through into a village type structure. And those coaches sat across the top. They would primarily do a lot of one on one coaching. So that was sort of the extent of, of learning is. So we would have, um, you know, new people come into the business. Those coaches would be responsible for doing one on one training in whatever format that looked like. We also had, um, fortnightly learning and development training sessions. So, um, and I guess in reflection now looking back at them, they're really just information dumps on a fortnightly basis where these coaches would scramble together to put together some sort of topic that they would deliver to, you know, between 50 and 100 people that would dial in on a fortnightly basis. Um, at the time, and it is still, you know, one of our, um, growth strategies is we did a lot of mergers and acquisitions. So, um, you know, at the time too, we would be integrating a lot of financial advice businesses, sometimes standalone team, sometimes into an existing team. And those advice and compliance and client experience coaches would be responsible for all of the training of those newly integrated, um, teams. So that's pretty much what I sort of came into, um, when I was asked to start. Basically that was the brief. It was, we know we need an L and D function. We need you to go and start one. That was my brief. Go, yes.

Speaker B: Either a huge brief or a very tiny brief. It depends how you read it. But essentially we have nothing to speak on. So all respect to the coaches and um, I know we'll hear later on that they are still involved. So don't, uh, worry. Anyone who's out there is a coach. Um, it was an opportunity for you to centralize and to give something a little bit more consistent. There's the opportunity, of course, to onboard all of these new, um, organizations that you emerging and acquiring as well. So clearly got asked to sort of set up L and D. Where do you start? Like what, what do you do when you're faced with an open book? Go away and make that happen. What on earth did you do next?

Speaker C: I know, it's, um, it's actually a funny story because before I even came into the role, I remember sitting in my living room and listening to this exact podcast, which, you know, and I'd be scrambling, writing notes and notes and listening to all these professionals talk about, you know, all the amazing things that they were doing. And so, um, always like a big dream of mine to think I'd never be able to get there. And so then being offered this opportunity to go and start a function, I actually thought to myself, I don't know how I'm going to do this, but the first thing I thought of was, well, why wouldn't I immerse myself into, um, a conference where I'm surrounded by people that are doing this role? So that was sort of my first line of thinking. Um, I went to the L and D symposium and immersed myself in, in that conference, not knowing anything that anybody was talking about. But one lady actually said to me, have you ever thought about reaching out to a woman named Michelle? A thought, oh, my God, I've been listening to her for the last six months, you know, my lounge room, writing all of these notes. Um, so, yeah, that's where I started. I immersed myself. I got some key contacts at this conference that, you know, I still, from time to time will liaise with, but reached out to Michelle and, um, and started that conversation because I, yeah, I don't know how I. In looking back, you know, I don't know how I would have started otherwise.

Speaker B: I love it. I love the fact that you're talking about the conference. We're heading into conference season, they're all coming up and this is the exact reason why. Who you going to meet? Who you're going to sit next to? There's a beautiful serendipity in conferences and when I move to Australia, I have to say, the L and D symposium keeps coming up. Lots of people and I've said, where do you go? Where's the one thing to go to? And people say, you know, I ilp, aitd and always the Hunter Valley experience. I don't know if it's the wine or if it's the conference, I'm not sure, but probably both. But it's certainly great to be around other professionals and so, yeah, hugely recommend that for sure. So you met Michelle, um, ah, having listened to the podcast, which is just such a lovely, um, sort of end of the circle sort of experience. And you then went through learning Uncut's strategy builder process, um, and that product that we offer. And then you also tagged on the operating model as well. Walk us through that. What did it feel like? You know, it's a very focused in strategic thinking, it's to build your own learning strategy. How do you do that in a business that runs at pace like yours?

Speaker C: It was really challenging and probably should have mentioned that. So, yeah, whilst we're integrating businesses, there's so much change and I'm Sure. A lot of people can resonate with that, but that's, it's, it's literally just get stuff done and get it done very quickly. Um, so it was really challenging in a sense of knowing that I had to actually, uh, deliver something and show some sort of value, but at the same time, um, know that there's all of this work that has to get done to build that. I knew that, like, if you're going to do it, you have to do it right. Um, so I guess, um, look, it started with lots of the sessions with, with Michelle. Like, I think there was so much leveling up and coaching that I needed in my, in my seat to even know what is an L and D strategy and like, what does that even mean and how do you execute that and, um, where do you start? So part of our process, and the reason why I think building and shaping the strategy works so well, is if I go back to our coaches, is our coaches were such a big part of the journey. So, um, we knew from very early on in the onset that we would need to take them along the journey and help them shape up what that strategy actually looks like. Um, particularly because they got a lot of fulfillment and, you know, I understand and resonate. They got a lot of fulfillment from, you know, teaching and coaching a lot of these team members one on one. So to be able to come in and be like, you know, we're actually going to change all of this up as part of our strategy. Um, we knew that we would have to take them along the journey with us and, um, and help, you know, help shape up the strategy with them. So were they full time? They were full time. Yep. Yeah.

Speaker B: Full time coaches.

Speaker C: Full time coaches. And they did give a lot of time to, to building this strategy. Right. So if I reflect back, um, we, we had lots of weekly project meetings. We interviewed across the whole business. You know, we must have done over a hundred interviews, surveys, you name it. Uh, and they were part of all of that, you know, that process of gathering all of that data and meeting with us. Um, and I think why it works so well, and maybe it comes back to a little bit of being within the business for 20 years, is that we've all built some really great foundations and relationships with a lot of these people. Uh, I, uh, can't sort of underestimate the power of connection relationships as part of this process too.

Speaker B: I can very much recommend that when you've got people who could potentially not be advocates to bring them with you on the journey. It was my Experience at, uh, Girl Guiding for sure. I wanted to make sure that all our trainers knew that I respected their position. Um, when we were moving from face to face into digital, and this feels quite similar, you wanted to make sure that those that were close to the front line of learning actually were involved in that project group. Um, is that really how it panned out, that you wanted to bring them in to make sure that you, you had their expertise as well as their advocacy?

Speaker C: Yeah. So, I mean, one of the things that we knew we had to do really quickly was get some runs on the board. And I think, you know, they were, like I said, they were part of that journey, but they were going to help us get some runs on the board in terms of helping us build out, um, you know, what that strategy looked like, um, and help do some of the work. Um, so, yeah, look, one of the initiatives I think that we, that we worked on quite quickly was, um, you know, we've got all of these m and as coming in. We, uh, know we need to onboard them at scale. They're the ones with the expertise. Um, so one of the things that we did first was this concept of peer to peer onboarding, um, through a platform called makeshapes, which, um, is still running three years later in terms of how we do that. Um, so if I think back to sort of the model before we went with that and the coaches helped shape up, what that actually looked like is we were onboarding all of these teams and we were doing it, you know, six different ways across the villages. So we really wanted to start bringing these m and as in and um, leveraging the coaches to build that content for us. So, um, yeah, that was sort of one of the, the first initiatives that we did quite quickly. One to both know, bring the coaches along the journey, have them part of shaping up what, you know, success looks like, but also then be able to go back to the business and say, you know, we're now able to integrate more M and as at pace, um, you know, through building out what this initiative looked like.

Speaker B: So you've got relationships, you've got quick wins, you've got making sure that those that potentially could be against you are for you because they're part of it. These are all really good ways forward. I want to go back to that relationship really. Was there a particular. Any examples where the relationship made the biggest difference, you know, maybe opened a door or made a hard conversation possible? Because building relationship in an organization I think is probably the number one win when it comes to any type of work, let alone strategy work. I'm just curious, is there any relationships that really sort of opened a door?

Speaker C: Oh, um, I think I, at the time I actually had, and I still do have a very good relationship with the managing director. Um, and we share the same passion around learning and development. So, yeah, I'd love. I, I use that one in a sense of. It was really hard to go back to the executive team and the managing director and say, we need a little bit more time here. You know, uh, we want to do this properly. Um, and so I think having had built that relationship, um, with him in particular, I personally think made it a lot easier to have some of those harder conversations around. Hey, um, yes, we need to get quick wins on the board and yes, we can sort of do some of these things on the side, but at the same time I also need to buy time to do these things. You know, like, we need to work on these things as well, which was all of the, the interviews and the research and you know, like, we don't just want to be going out on a limb here and creating a function from scratch with nothing built out. So I think, um, like that to me sort of is one of the relationships that stands out around having that with him. Having a good relationship.

Speaker B: It's always good to have a senior person kind of on your side, um, and enable you to, to have those conversations. Because you're right, you do have to put the quick wins. And the make shapes project sounds like that, that worked for you in that regard. But the whole point of our strategy builder process is that you do the diagnose phase. You really do that good thinking. I always say the quality of your thinking affects the quality of your output. And oftentimes in learning and development, we jump to solutions. We don't actually go slow enough to think about, well, what is really going on here? How do we really understand the business? What is the evidence pointing towards? So we're pretty firm in that part of our process for a reason. And I feel like what you're describing is why that's the case. So talk us through a little bit about, um, that, that sense. I know in the, in the conversation we had before we started, you talked about needing the permission to be imperfect because of course when you're doing diagnosis, when you're moving towards strategiz, it's not going to be perfect. There's going to be more thinking and then iterations of your thinking and then more thinking. So talk us through this. Permission to be imperfect is a phrase that you've used?

Speaker C: Yes, that's my philosophy. Uh, and it's still my philosophy now three years on. We just start with something and we know it's imperfect.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker C: uh, look, I think when we initially did the strategy builder and the diagnosis and, and put together our initiatives, we had so much work that we, we wanted to get done. Um, and I think the reality quite quickly was we're not going to be able to do all of that and if we are going to be able to do it, we have to do it imperfect or we just have to start somewhere. Um, and so that's, that's a sort of essentially been something that we have run with for the last three years and I think it's the testament to why we have been so successful. And look, we, we still have challenges but um, you, you just got to start with something and know that it's not going to be perfect. And I'll use the example of say make shapes is we, we implemented this new tool having. These coaches have never done any training, they're not trainers, they've always just done one on one coaching and sort of demonstrating sort of things. And so um, we knew very quickly, quickly that um, you know, we want to deliver all of these really great onboarding and you know, this is going to look really beautiful and these M and A teams are going to integrate in and they'll know exactly what to do. But um, you know, the reality is we then had to teach the coaches how to be trainers now and how to create content and you know, so just, I just think you just have to have that philosophy, um, which I know seems really contradictory for L and D. Right. Because L and D usually wants to have everything perfect.

Speaker B: Oh, not anymore. Yeah, I'd like to think that as a profession we've switched because you're right, there was a time where I call it polish in the stone. We'd behind the scenes, polish, polish, polish and then we'd present Ta da. Here is the polished perfect thing. Yeah, but actually what we know to be true from work that's been done in Agile and you know, I'm talking about the sort of the philosophy of Agile. Agile and work that's been done in things like um, design, um, universal design thinking, all of those kind of ideas that we start somewhere like you say, and then we polish it together, we get better with the feedback, we iterate all of the time. Have we all moved that way? I'm not so sure. But you know, it's definitely the direction of travel. So it's lovely to hear that you are thinking about that. Did you do anything that was uh, you know, traditional, I'm going to call it traditional like implement um, you know, learning online or uh, learning management system system or you know you've, you've gone from coaching, which is potentially a bit future thinking to training. So I'm just curious about sort of, you know, what, what else did you implement in those early days to learn from?

Speaker C: Yeah, so once we sort of embedded a lot of our onboarding and upskilled our, our coaches into trainers we did then move into. So that was sort of not part of our strategy straight away to implement a learning management system. Again, going back to imperfect, it's like let's just start somewhere. We got makeshapes tool we can onboard these m and a scale. Um, and we did that and perfected that over a 12 month period and then it was okay. Now we're at the stage where we need a learning management system because we can't sustain this any longer. What does that actually look and feel like? And again going back to being imperfect is okay. Well we know based on research that measuring learning metrics is not effective or it's not um, a true representation of the value that learning can add. But we know we have to start somewhere. So when we implemented our learning management system I think we averaged at the beginning we sort of worked out it was around 40% completion rates. Uh, one of the things we'd sort of said was okay, 40% completion rates, let's just double that, let's just get that to uh, 80%. If we can do the work in embedding a learning management system and moving from no training or fortnightly training to a new learning management system with elearning, um, and we can get that to 80%, that would be a win right? In a 12 month period, let's just get good at that. And so that's sort of what we focused on. And again going back to imperfect, we know we want to do more but that's what we've got to get done first before we can move on to the next. And so I think that's sort of the way we've always operated is let's start somewhere and go from there. So yeah, a lot of hard work that just went into 12 months of trying to get 40 to 80%, you know, completion rates, um, and us jumping for joy and you know, the business not really as excited about a 40% to 80% metric. But I mean for a learning team that had nothing to now you know, we're like killing it, killing it here.

Speaker B: It is so nice to hear your realism about the metrics because you're absolutely right. Many learning teams will, would stop at um, the learning metrics, but you're recognizing that that's not where you want to be. You want to be with business metrics, but you've got to start somewhere. And it's not a bad start to go to double your engagement, uh, with your learning management system. And now of course you're beyond even 80%, so you're definitely tracking in the right direction. And next it's onto business metrics, um, obviously, and I really respect that, that whole philosophy around start somewhere. It certainly is something that we recommend when it comes to the strategy builder process. The diagnosis piece helps you to identify where are you at? Um, and that in and of itself is useful information because I always say, meet learners where they are, meet your organization where they are, use the language that they talk about. Meet them in a place which isn't like you say, they're not interested in learning metrics, they're not interested in learning really. They're interested in what they are paid to be interested in. And so when we're interested in the same things that they're interested in, then suddenly everyone's, you know, just getting on a little bit more. But that whole piece around start somewhere and iterate, that feels quite scary for somebody who isn't doing that. What would you say to a learning and development professional who perhaps is a little bit afraid to start, is a little bit afraid because they haven't got the business metrics, isn't, uh, you know, hasn't quite done the thinking or hasn't done, um, that diagnosis, hasn't got that evidence base behind them. What would you suggest?

Speaker C: Well, the business, in any business that you work in, there's a metric that they're, that they are measuring. So like I would be saying, just find something that you can, that you can measure. I, um, mean like we can't as a learning team say to everybody else that we're, we're trying to teach and better that um, you know, don't make a mistake. I mean that's where you, you make mistakes and you, that's where you, you learn and you grow. Right? So I think it's sort of the same sort of concept internally as a learning and development team is I feel like you kind of have to fail a little bit so that you can continue to keep bettering yourself. So, um, or what has worked really well for us is um, we always reset on a quarterly basis and our rhythm has been something that even to this day the business swears by and it's really true is that we have a really structured rhythm around annual planning, quarterly planning, monthlies, um, weeklies, dailies of the Rockefeller habits. The really good um, model to work by and if I tie that back into start somewhere is um, you know, have a framework to be able to stop, pause, reflect what worked well, what didn't like. I think that whole process works really well for us in our process of iteration as we're sort of going along is just pick something, let's just pick something. If we fail, that's okay. We have, we reset again in the quarter. We reflect, we look ahead, you know, we align with the business. Where are we headed? So I just think you just Pixar link and, and run with it. I know, I don't know if that just seems so simple, you know, um, but that's worked for us is, is that um. I go back to the strategy builder that you talked about earlier is when we did all of that work with Michelle, we had you know, um, three years, you know, was sort of the, the framework, you know, build out something that you can work towards over a three year period. Like that's important, possible for our business. We just can't at the pace that we run with. And so I think at that time it was like well, three years is not, it's not going to be feasible for us. We can only plan 12 months in advance. So I just think um, you've just got to, you've just have to go with where the business is at.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: Start somewhere. Yeah. Come back to that iterate. Try something. One foot in front of the other. Yep.

Speaker B: It's interesting that you say we've just had another client we've been working with and they're like yeah, we're going to go with two years. You know, it doesn't suit us. But that's kind of the point. This work is about really understanding your organization and the rhythm that you talk about is really important. I remember when I first started learning development and I was working in relocation. Never do any learning at the time when everyone's moving, which generally is um, in the northern hemisphere through July and August, ready for the September school start. So there'd be no point trying to fit learning into that space because nobody would attend, nobody would do it because that's the whole point. Understand the rhythm of your organization and that's really what comes out of the diagnose.

Speaker C: Phase.

Speaker B: And that's why we build a strategy. You say pick something almost like it's rolling the dice and it's random, but actually I know from this annual monthly, weekly daily routine that it's not random. You're picking a good bet.

Speaker C: No, it's been, uh, yeah, like there was a lot of thought effort, consulting put in. Like I said, we go right back to the beginning. Hundreds of interviews and surveys. And yes, we built out a whole sort of here's what we're going to do. But then it was very quickly realizing we are not going to be able to do that. So let's just focus on this. And then I think that has built momentum for us over the last couple of years around. Okay, now we've met the business here. Now what's next? Now what's next is sort of our, the way that we have worked, it

Speaker B: feels like a story of pace and pivot. That momentum comes from the ability to kind of understand the pace, but also pivot. And that pivot comes from that iteration as well. We tried, it didn't quite work. Let's try something else. Y and that's why implement is one of the phases. You know, you've got to do something at the end of the day, but it's how do you sustain it? So I'm curious to know. There was one of you, There was lots of the coaches, they became trainers. But in terms of leading the team, in terms of focusing in on delivering on that strategy that you had developed, there was one of you. What happened next? Did you stay? Are you still one of you?

Speaker C: No, there is six of us now. Um, so we do have in two years. Yes, I know, I feel very, very fortunate. Um, but I feel because of the pace and the growth that the business has gone through, um, that we just wouldn't have been able to support the business in all of that growth. Like if I think about sort of even in that first 12 month period, it was okay. Now we're building all of this onboarding to then within the next 12 months implement a whole CRM system and have to roll that out and a learning management system and roll out compliance training and integrate, you know. So I think if you think about that sort of enormity of scale and activity that's going on in the business. The very first, uh, recruit was, uh, we already have enough financial services expertise. We don't have any capability in the design space. And so that was sort of one of the first roles that we, we brought in was, okay, well how are we going to get these trainers upskilled and how are we going to get these trainers training and building content? Um, and so uh, I recruited Tony who's our um, senior learning experience designer and she works really closely even now, um, with, with all of our trainers in making sure that they're training to a standard, that the standards are consistent. Consistent. Um, so that was our first recruit and then we had our, we've got our learning coordinator. So yeah, we need someone to be able to coordinate all of the change and the programs. And so that was our next recruit. Uh, we've got a, ah, learning technical platform administrator. You know we're now a one enterprise with multiple businesses sitting within. We need someone to be able to have all of that technical capability. And then of course our last one was our capability partner, um, who um, he works very much around the evaluation space. So I think I was very quickly able to go back to the business and say do we really want to be um, a business of this size and scale, um, that helps our clients if we're not able to know if all of the training we're developing is doing something. So going back and sort of saying, okay, that's the next evolution of where we're headed, right, is we need someone to be able to sit a little bit off to the side, you know, in our learning team. Um, that's evaluating and working across, you know, with all of our leaders on, are we hitting the mark? You know, what are we actually trying to achieve? So that's sort of the next evolution of where we've started to head into now is um, yeah, we've just built all of this training and now we're like, does it work? What are we doing with all of this? Is it doing what we want it to do?

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, it's a wonderful hire. I mean I love the fact that we're heading in that's in that direction. Absolutely. I'm curious about how you built the business case out for each of those hires. Because from one to six in two years, that's many people's dream. How much did having a clear strategy, uh, and having gone through the process help you with having those hires coming into play?

Speaker C: Um, yeah, look, I think when the business does their three year plan on a page, that then filters down into our 12 month plan on a page and at that time is usually then when I'm rethinking about our strategy. So um, yeah, going back to the work that we did originally with Michelle. Yeah, we, we still have that overarching Strategy, it just flexes from time to time on a 12 monthly basis in terms of what are the initiatives now that we're going to do. So I guess that was the opportunity that I've used each time to be able to reset and say, um, you know, if the business wants to do this this year and our team needs to be here, these are the roles that we need, um, you know, and look to be. To be fair, I'm, I'm still, I'm still getting better myself at knowing how to put forward proposals. So I don't know whether or not I was fortunate enough to um, have really good connections with the managing director, with senior leaders to be able to communicate to them around, well, these are the roles that we need in order to deliver on that strategy. And I think at the time with those new roles too, we were talking of integrating in up to 10 plus M and as um, a year. So I think being able to link back to some of the things that are really important to the business around. Well, um, yeah, we're going to need more resources to be able to enable that scale. We're going to need this resource in particular to be able to get us from just. Do we want to be a business that just measures learning and delivers hundreds of e learning modules? Is that the business we really want to be? I don't think so. Um, you know, so I love the

Speaker B: fact that you're grounding this strategy. The uh, business case is in the business, uh, needs, but the strategy isn't fixed. You know, the sustained phase of the process is what does need to change, what does need to morph, what does need to be uh, revisited. You can't write a strategy and then it's done. That's it. It's a living, breathing document that reflects what's moving within your organization. And this whole pace, your organization, I mean 10 a year is huge. Um, so to be able to keep on top of that, um, I just really appreciate the fact that you recognize that this is not we wrote it, it's there, it's in the corner. We just leave it over there and then come over here and do the other work. It's really informing your day to day. And I can hear in your examples and what you're talking about there, um, which is such a grand lesson for everybody because so many times we do work in learning and development, which is reactive. You know, Johnny needs a sales course. Okay, well do you want one on Thursday or one next Tuesday? And that really doesn't help anybody. You know, why Does Johnny need a sales course? What's wrong? What's going on? What's the business issue that we're trying to solve for? Or what are we trying to build in your case, you know, what are we trying to build and create? So these are just all great stories to be sharing, Elise, and I'm grateful on behalf of the listeners. I'm grateful.

Speaker C: The work that I did with, With Michelle around this strategy was, um. You know, I'd never been exposed to any of that before, and I'm certainly not, you know, coming into this in the last three years. I've learned so much. You know, if I think Michelle used to say things to me like, you know, we really need to maybe start building out some cases and hypotheses. And I was like, I can't even fathom, like, what that means, you know, like to now actually getting to that point. Point. So, again, going back to being imperfect and going with the business, that has worked really well. And because we have such structure around our rhythm as a business with the Rockefeller habits and quarterly planning is, um, the strategy is alive. Every quarter is. We. We are revisiting that every quarter. We are saying, you know, not just have we delivered these project initiatives, have we actually moved the behavior dial? You know, that was something I learned very early on from Michelle, you know, around, um. The strategy is the strategy. You've got to do something. Yeah. You know, it's. It's not just like, hey, let's deliver all of these great initiatives like onboarding and, you know, update our SharePoint and whatever all the things that we come up with. It's. Is it actually doing something? And I think having the rhythm that supports us in our business currently, that gives us that opportunity every quarter to be like, we need to flex a bit here. That's not working. It's not. We're not seeing the intent of the movement that we need and then getting to that annual plan and saying, did we win this year and now what's next? What is. Where's the business at and what do we need to do next? And I think it goes back to that topic you just said around. How did you put together a business case? It's like, well, I think because we are so attuned to what the business is doing, you know, we are. We are there, you know, going. We are here to, um, to help bring that vision to life, you know, where we aren't just learning, delivering e learning on the side, or, you know, we are. We're building the maturity and evolution of Our team, as the business is growing, I think is. Is, yeah, really big part of it.

Speaker B: Yeah, this is the real need for people. I mean, you've come out of the business into L and D, but many people have, uh, you know, started in, uh, in L and D. How do they get that business acumen? You just immerse yourself in that space. And, you know, this is like, I work in a bus company. Get on the bus. Understand what it's like to be a driver, you know, understand what it's like in those spaces that your learners sit within. So I think it's been a bit of a blessing that you've come from the business. That was my route into learning as well. I came from from within the business, and it just helped me to really understand, well, what do they care about? What is the rhythm? What are their business goals, why are they doing what they're doing? Um, but we can learn that stuff. If you've come from an L and D background, you can learn that stuff. And I think it's one of the first things that we need to really learn. Because what you're demonstrating is you understanding it has meant a real difference for your organization. Well, we're heading towards our close now, and I'm curious to know, three years on, what do you wish you'd known at the start?

Speaker C: Oh, that's a good question. Um. Uh, I keep coming back to the imperfect and the starting somewhere. I feel like I really needed to have known that at the beginning of my journey. I mean, I did sort of realize quite quickly, but I still had this, uh, you know, motivation to, like, no, we're going to be able to do all of that. You know, like, we can do it. Um, so I'm ever the optimist, and maybe that's part of the success. Uh, is that. No, no, um, we're gonna get through it, but, yeah, that. That it's not going to go to plan. And I think sometimes things take a really long time. Like, if I go back to thinking, you know, 40% to 80%, anyone might have looked at that and said, easy, you know, whereas I was like, well, that took us a whole year of blood, sweat and tears to get to that 80%. So, uh, I think mainly knowing right at the beginning that, yeah, it's not. It's going to be really messy. It's, you know, you may. You may not achieve all of the things that you wanted to achieve and that you need to kind of flex and bend. And, um, things are going to take time. Yeah, culture takes Time. Changing culture takes time. And I think that's a big part of what learning and development is about, is that we're building and changing culture. Well, that's certainly our story, is we start with nothing. Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, I think, yeah, we're involved in behavior change. You know, changes are our, uh, middle name. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you. So that sense that you're very ambitious, perhaps bit off a little bit more than you could choose, um, what's the honest story there? Because there's an emotion to that, isn't there? There isn't a bit of an emotional toll. If, you know, you're a very positive person, at least I've met you a few times now, and you're clearly very positive person. Um, but I wonder how the emotion roller coaster kind of went for you in that. Did it take an emotional toll? How did you look after yourself through, you know, not quite getting there and the slowness of everything, because things do take a long time.

Speaker C: Look, with, you know, like I said, going back to relationships, it's been 20 years of, of a lot of great relationships that I've built with a lot of great people. I feel like, you know, a lot of the people that we work with, and that's sort of part of the, the journey of, of the former InvestBlue business, uh, is, you know, it does feel a little bit like family. So we're all in the trenches together. Um, that has got a lot of us through, you know, a lot of hard, a lot of hard work. Um, and look, why wouldn't you want to be a part of starting something new? I mean, like, uh, when I went to the conference that first day, I remember someone saying to me, oh my God, how exciting. You get to start something from scratch. I mean, like three years in. And I'm like, uh, I still feel like there's a mountain of stuff that we have to get through. But if I also look back at what we've started with, nothing to now where we are now. Um, but yeah, look, I'm actually coming up to my 20 year anniversary, my work anniversary. I turned 40 this year. So, um, I am actually taking a month off, which is unheard of. And I am really, really looking forward to it, so.

Speaker B: Good.

Speaker C: Um, people have got me through. The idea that I'm taking a month off has also got me through. Um, maybe some champagne. Michelle.

Speaker B: One of the beautiful things the listeners must know is this is the last thing that Elise is doing before her month's holiday. So we're very grateful at learning uncut for you to spend the time with us.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: But it is also, I think, important to note that. How far have you come? Often when we're looking at a mountain like you describe, we can only see the peak. But don't forget to turn around and look at how far up the mountain you're coming. Because when you're not at the top, there's always more to do. But actually halfway up is way higher than at the bottom. Um, so turning around and having a look at that. I'd love to, to imagine you on a beach somewhere for the next month thinking about, wow, I've done so much stuff. But for those people that like you, you know, we're just starting out an LND function. Off you go. That was your initial instruction. Um, not having the luxury of, of 20 year long service leave. I should just point out in Australia it's quite typical if you work in an organization for a long time that you do have long service leave. This is unheard of in many other countries, not least my own home country of uk. So, um, people will be just like, she's having a month, that's crazy. So most people are not going to have the luxury of that. But I want to, I just want to reiterate what you said got you through was that positivity, that ambition, the excitement of growing something, but the relationships as well. If there's one thing that people can do when they start out an lnd fun function, would you say nurture relationships is the most important or is there another thing that's more important?

Speaker C: Yes. No. Relationships is so underrated. I mean, I even tell my team will attest to that. The first thing I tell them to do when they start, every single one of them that started in my team was you're leveling up with, connecting with the people. That is what you are going to focus on. And that is being in the office. That is getting to know people. Um, you know, connection like you just, you can't underestimate the power of. And I think in L and D, you know, we aren't a solo team on the side. We are ingrained in the business. We need to be across what people are doing and you know, um, we need favors, we need people sometimes. Right. I just think, um, never underestimate. I think I did one today. I rang someone today and said, I really need you to help me with something before I go away. Um, and if you've established such great relationships with people, I think that that, that helps. It really does. Um, and it helps to bounce Ideas off when you think you're not, you know, you don't know what you're doing. Um, you just, you need connection for so many. Keep you sane, Michelle? Um, all of the above. Yeah.

Speaker B: Relationships are definitely not soft, they are strategic. And they're certainly what I feel has held this together for you. So far be it from me to stand between you and a month off. Um, so let's wrap this up, really. I mean, what I've heard today is just phenomenal. You've gone from fortnightly info dumps, which is very typical. You've gone from one to one coaching, which is great for those in the one to one, but what about everybody else? To now having over 90% of people accessing content from your learning management system. The ability for you to pivot when you need to, to have a really strong core strategic intent, but to be able to sustain that, um, with these relationships with your now growing team. Um, it's all good and it's just such a lovely story. So I thank you so much for sharing it with everyone here listening to Learning Uncut. Where can people connect with you, Elise? Where, where would they if they wanted to learn a little bit more?

Speaker C: I am on LinkedIn, so feel free to add me or reach out. Um, I would be happy. Uh, like I said, connections is, is at my core. So, you know, I think the more of us that band together and bounce off each other, um, the better each of us are and the, and that the businesses that we serve. Right. So, and we'll, we'll make sure this

Speaker B: goes out after you come back because I don't want you bombarded whilst you're on your holidays. Wonderful. Well, thank you so, so much. And if you've been listening to this story today and you're interested in learning more about Strategy Builder, then do look in the show notes information. We'll be sure to share things there for you. Um, if you're thinking about your learning strategy and if you're really interested in making sure other people find this, do share it with them. When podcasts are shared, that's when the love is shared and people find out about things. So if you're, you're finding this useful, then share it with somebody because they might find it useful as well. But all that's left for me to say is have a lovely holiday, Elise. I'll speak to you when you get back. You.

Speaker C: Thanks, Michelle. See you later.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening. Head over to LearningUncut GlobalPodcast to access resources discussed in this episode. If you have a story to share on the podcast, contact Michelle Parry Slater on LinkedIn.