"Be the change you want to see" - Charles Newnam of Perceptyx

Dr. Josh Elmore Welcome to the Land and Lead podcast, where we explore the real stories behind leadership transitions, the setbacks, strategies, wins, and moments of all aimed at helping other leaders land well and lead effectively. I'm your host, Dr. Josh Elmore of Court Street Consulting.

The Land and Lead podcast is supported by my advisory work at Court Street Consulting. I work with new executives with expanded mandates, and leaders facing complex change to help them think clearly, learn in real time, and make consequential decisions. If you're navigating complexity where the stakes feel high and the path isn't obvious, that's the work that I do. Today we're speaking with Charles Newnam Vice President and General Manager of Leadership and Learning Strategy at Perceptyx.

At Perceptyx, Charles leads the work helping organizations develop leaders, grow people, and change behaviors at scale to improve work experiences. An organization development expert, coach, and strategist, Charles is known for driving transformational impact across global enterprises. Prior to Perceptyx, Charles spent more than 12 years at Accenture. Most recently as strategy principal director in the talent and organization practice within leadership and culture.

There, he delivered multi-million dollar transformation programs for Fortune 100 clients, partnering with C-suite leaders on large scale initiatives spanning culture, leadership alignment, team effectiveness, and inclusivity. Earlier in his career, Charles served nine years in the United States Navy as a submarine warfare officer, completing multiple deployments and leading highly complex classified missions. concluded his naval service as an assistant professor Carolina teaching naval engineering and naval weaponry and was consistently ranked in the top 10 of the submarine fleet for leadership and technical excellence.

Charles is the co-founder of VEL Institute and president of Wisdom for Humanity or W4H, two nonprofit organizations focused on leadership development, service and reflective growth. He holds graduate degrees from Columbia University and UNC Kenan Flagler and lives with his the Greater Chattanooga area. Welcome to the show, Charles. Charles Newnam Hey, thanks for having me, Josh.

Dr. Josh Elmore Certainly, yeah, we're excited to chat and ⁓ excited about chatting about Perceptyx and ⁓ you've been there for how long? Charles Newnam About maybe 45 days, something like that. yeah, very new.

Yeah, very new. I feel like I have my feet under me right now, so that's good. But it's like drinking from the fire house, to some degree. Dr.

Josh Elmore 45 days. Okay. Yeah, so it's new. Okay, so we'll take it from that perspective, the 45 days in, very new.

taking it from like thinking about the background I just shared, but can you elaborate a little bit on your background and how you landed at Perceptyx? Charles Newnam Yeah, no, it's a great guess the first thing, like, you know, how I got interested in like behavior change. I mean, you know, spare kind of the intro before university, but essentially got recruited out of college to, was a first generation college student to go into the Navy. So I, uh, was doing electrical engineering.

They were recruiting engineers. I got picked up. ended up doing nuclear engineering and volunteered for the submarine force. I think in submarining, you know, it was like very interesting to me, like how we, would behave collectively.

But also I did a lot of missions that were essentially like watching things or watching people or listening for signals of interest or doing all sorts of interesting things in electronics. And I got really curious about behavior. Why do these people do what they do? Why are we doing what we're doing?

Like why, when I came back from sea after six months, did things seem so odd or unfamiliar from a social interaction perspective? And so I was just really curious about that. Also, like I watched leaders, you know, some leaders could get their teams to do extraordinary things. And I saw just what I would call now just love a lot of love and care for the team and other leaders that there wasn't maybe some obvious reasons why they couldn't do the same.

And there was obviously some leaders that were terrible and it was very obvious as to why they were terrible, but I got really interested in leadership. so I didn't want to be an engineer anymore. So I went to business school, like every, think person does. And then what do I, don't know what I want to do anymore.

So I became a consultant. So that's kind like how that transition happened. But then I really fell in love with kind of the talent organization, with leadership, with culture, with behavior. Like all of those things were just super interesting to me.

And then going back to school and then, you know, Perceptyx came along and they had this opportunity they really wanted to bring into the learning and and development space. And so for me, I saw, you know, my life mission, which is one that I want to change the culture to a more love and meaning filled one. And so I saw that I saw the products that they have and really it's just, it's able, it's a way for me to do something in alignment with my life mission and do it at scale across the world.

So I jumped in without hesitation and that's what I'm doing now. Dr. Josh Elmore Hmm. And so fascinating kind on being in your work context, in the Navy, at sea, seeing work dynamics, seeing leadership styles and having to life and be effective or not effective.

then using that as kind of a guiding principle to guide you to your roles and perceptics kind of you gravitated towards that. In that kind of journey of being of gravitating towards Perceptyx how did you, like what did you recognize as kind of aligned with that approach or your orientation that you're kind of able to manifest now and kind of pursue that love orientation that you were just mentioning? Charles Newnam That's a great question. Yeah.

I think it's kind of been a blend of like both of my worlds, like, like being an engineer, uh, you know, highly technical, I mean, operating a submarine a survey, much less like trying to position a submarine to like fight it, um, with the way that we do our tactics. I mean, it's a highly complex, it's a systems engineering, you know, uh, problem that you have to be thinking about all the time. Right. So if I lose hydraulic system here, what else goes down?

If I lose steam here, what happens here? How does that affect the electrical plant? What electronics run off of that plant? know, like this, this bus, you know, things like that.

So you're, have to know all of these and I think having a real technical background and needing to see proof and empirical evidence of then I walked into like the, the org development space a lot of the questions I was asking, how do we know this works? How, where did this framework come from? What are we ultimately trying to do? You know, like I was asking these kinds of questions and I was.

I was like dissatisfied with the answers that I was getting, which sent me back to And then I met Perceptyx chief product officer back in like 2018. I think it was cold email them. saw an article about a company that he was leading at the time. He was the CEO of another company.

And we just started talking and it was like, he was trying to bring empirical objective data for leaders to reflect on and change their behaviors. And I thought, wow, we could do this at scale. Like how cool is that? And then we could show how behaviors change over time.

And so for me, I think it was like sort of this, I tell people that I'm a recovering engineer, but it's like my drive for like empirical data and statistical significance combined with like my passion around like behavior and wanting to see systemic change, not only in our organizations, but our communities. I think that's what's, there's like this sweet spot and convergence of all that coming together. This feels almost like it was like just the right timing. I'm the right person in the right role to just step into.

there's, think, I think that hopefully that answers your question. I think that's kind what you're going after, but that's, that's how I feel. So like aligned and like integrated with this role. Dr.

Josh Elmore Hmm. Yeah, and it's kind of idea of the gravitational pull, you know, and it sounds like you were gravitating ⁓ early, you know, a while ago, you said 2018, right, ⁓ towards chief product officer. And so that's, you know, that's coming up on almost 10 years ⁓ ago. So it takes, it's really interesting to see kind of that trajectory from first contact to coming into role and being 45 days in now and thinking about kind of those these early moments, can you tell us more about Perceptyx and the situation when you entered this new VP and GM role?

Charles Newnam Yeah. I mean, perceptics has been around for a long time. They've been around for 20, 23 years, maybe 24 years. you know, traditionally kind of in the survey business.

like, you know, uh, doing surveys and compiling that data and giving people insights about their organizations. they are the global leader in employee experience and like deep listening. So, uh, just incredible that that is what they have honed over years and they are, they have kind of perfected it. And you think about it from market leadership.

You know, today, how we're thinking about it is like, okay, so what's, how do we actually put these things into action? How do we actually then change behaviors? Because we're able to provide deep insights and deep listening and do it with agentic AI now. And it's, it's almost seamless.

You know, think about the, where the survey business is going. I think it's going to more just of like we could have, and you know, AI can glean. Well, how is Charles feeling about his company? How is, you know, this, how do these things like, you know, how do we, ⁓ have a taxonomy behind that where it slots these things in?

So, I think that's the future of employee experience, employee listening. Well, the future's here. We're doing it. Perceptyx is doing it.

But what it comes down to is like that, where's that action? So action, not only from like, okay, employee experience and engagement, but also from like learning. Almost every company that we have data on, they're showing that like a lot of reasons people are leaving is because of learning. so, well, how can we take action on that?

S o like we have some really cool, agentic AI that goes through and it says, hey, based on where you're at from our employee experience data, based on your 360 data and based on where your organization is trying to go from a strategy, it actually just these behavioral science nudges, drops them in, and then it can pull links from your LMS or any content that you pointed to and say, let me help you get better at what you're trying to get better at or what the company needs from a strategic perspective.

So, ⁓ so all of these things are kind of like coming together and ultimately it's like, now can we get into the, ⁓ if we can help people learn, if we can help people develop. And then if we can monitor behavior change on the back end of that, and it readjusted itself all the way around to this loop, it's almost like you have a full closed that ability to drive change, organizational change in an enterprise. And you can do it with very little humans involved. And it works 24 seven and it's tailored to each individual of the organization too.

So like this is hyper personalization and all that. it's like, that's kind of where we're going. And I forget where your original question was, but that's where I landed. So I'm just really excited about completing that full cycle and being able to do organizational change and do it in a way with AI underneath it.

And it's hyper personalized to the individuals too. I think that's been like a missing piece that we've been looking for for a long time. Dr. Josh Elmore Yeah, I mean, you, that's right on as it relates to kind of what I was asking is, you know, kind of about Perceptyx, but also kind of the situation when you entered and it sounds like the situation is being is this kind of moment of forward looking, leveraging of technology to manifest kind of this ⁓ new layer of learning, listening, engaging the workforce to kind of be able to step forward strategically.

Is that right? Charles Newnam Yeah. And maybe, maybe to come back one more thing is like, yeah, I think what they were seeing and why they felt like they needed a new net new role to be the general manager is because the, a lot of times in organizations, we thought about employee experience belongs like this one person or group that we've got learning and development and like leadership development and talent development and all belongs in this bucket. And then we've got organizational change or change management or org effectiveness that belongs over here.

Well, technology right now is blending the two or the three, the boundary between those parts of the business are being dissolved. And so why can't I, as a user experience, why shouldn't I expect this to all feel seamless to me? Because organizations are changing and we'll never have a slower pace of change than we do today. know, that's true.

People are wanting growth opportunities and you know, they want to be engaged. And so why should that, why shouldn't all these systems talk to each other? Why shouldn't that guide the individual through all of that at one time? And so I think they started to see the dissolving of those boundaries.

And they said, well, we need someone to really come in and lead our products with the view of how does all this connect and how can we help people only engaged, but growing in their careers, developing and all those types of things. So that's why I stepped, that's why they were like, let's create this net new and have someone actually come in and lead it. Dr. Josh Elmore Okay, so this is a new role for the organization for Perceptyx.

And so it's a new role. connecting across ⁓ some dimensions of the organization. And so coming in 45 days, how were you conceptualizing it? How was the organization conceptualizing it?

And how is that kind of meeting reality? Charles Newnam That's correct. Yeah. Hmm.

I mean, I think, I think the organization and, you know, I am conceptualizing it in a similar way as I just explained, right? We've got these products, they can do these things. We need someone to kind of lead the way. And then also we've got a foundation, but then what's the future look like and how does, how does this person have a vision to where we want to go and L & D in the future?

I think, I think all that's, there's good alignment right now. I would also say I'm 45 days in. We've yet to get into the tactics and execution in a meaningful way. And of course, all the differences show up in the execution.

So we'll figure that out. So I think there is some alignment there. And you had a second part to that question, too. What was the second part?

Dr. Josh Elmore Yeah, it's around this idea of the reality, right? So ⁓ you have that alignment and then kind of, you know, as you're in it, kind of where are you seeing how like, okay, well, this is what we thought. And maybe this needs to be updated so that and you can get alignment on that.

like, you know, because it's new, right? Of course, things in the abstract, it's going to be different than what it exist when you walk in. Charles Newnam Okay. Yeah, I think the biggest challenge for us and for me, frankly, like right now, is just changing the mindset.

I mean, we've got over two decades of being an employee experience company and we're still an employee experience company. We're, the best in the world at it. So like, of course we're going to continue to do that. I think then it's like, how do we shift to be a employee experience and, you know, something else.

And so, we are going through our own organizational transformation at the same time. And we, and you know, we, we, we drink our own champagne, right? We use our own tools to help with that. So, ⁓ I think it's a mindset shift.

And so you get it, you know, I get into like the prep calls with customers and things like that. And I still have the fresh eyes. like, like we're still, we're still viewing ourselves through like this particular lens. Like, like I'm almost like, no, no, no, stop.

Like let's come in at, from this angle. And then it's, I'm seeing some of the light bulbs, you know, turn on and like, like when we, when we truly do embrace it from a, this -and, it does change the way we talk. does change the way we position, you know, things like that. So I think my work is kind of being the catalyst for that organizational change and leading the way.

And I think our organizationally, our biggest challenge is going to be like truly like, embodying that new mindset or that new direction. Dr. Josh Elmore And you have a background in organization development. You're coming from a consulting firm.

How are you now leading the change that you want to see? Charles Newnam Yeah, I guess the first thing I'm doing is I'm being the change I want to see in the organization. So I kind of philosophically believe that if you want anything to change in your life or organization, it starts in here. And so I'm trying to be an example if that means that I got to build the first set of slides out to talk about it one way.

Like I'll do it and like say, do it like this or come to this meeting with me. Listen to me talk about it and you know, I'm going to make mistakes. I'm not going to say everything right. All that kind of stuff too.

I think that's, that's kind of one So I'm being the change, you know, I want to, I want to see in the organization. think the second thing I've got kind of like a, when I think about mine, it's like a two-pronged approach. one is, um, is setting up the systems, uh, inside of the organization. So, you know, how are we preparing like the sales reps to go and have conversations with customers about these things.

How are they thinking about pricing it? What's the value case for the customers as well, right? It's like, let's show an ROI. Let's be really diligent about the way that we're doing that and how we're positioning these value cases.

Well, then if we're to demo our products, like we've got a lot of smart people, we can use these products in many different ways, but we want to demo it a specific way that talks to the value case that the customer's interested in solving, right? And so it's like, all right, so getting them and then we're gonna get customer feedback about stuff. like, okay, how do we have to go back to product? So anyways, there's all of these things that could be systematized into the organization and start pushing us toward that future where we wanna go.

And so that's one level that I'm trying to get set up right now. And maybe it's actually three levels. So that's one, I think it's in the middle. The second thing is, is like tactical, like, I'm just jumping right into the customer calls, listening, guiding teams, rolling up my sleeves, getting dirty with the teams.

so, and I think one, it helps me learn. I'm learning, okay, ⁓ yeah, I see it like that. I see why why this is a challenge or why ⁓ this is a way that we're used to talking about something. And so that's helping me a lot.

And that's also part of me maybe just being the change too. And then the third thing is the higher level strategy. So then, once we get some of the systems in place, we see that that's working. You know, we're, solving customer outcomes.

solving business problems. Okay, great. Check. Now, like, what are we doing in, in a two years time?

Right. So what's that higher level strategy? What's the vision? Who do we want to be in the L & D market?

Do we want to try to even make a whole new category? Are we even L and D anymore? Once we start to blend these things together, is there something totally net new? And so, you know, I don't know.

And that's exciting to me. So I'm trying to do all three of those right now. I'd say the majority of my time is really focused on the setting up systems and then the tactical stuff today. So, but I expect that to shift over time where I'm spending a bit more time on strategy and driving that vision.

Dr. Josh Elmore Super helpful to think about this kind of idea of like the levels, right? Like what, and what level you're operating at. So giving it that definition can help you decide, you know, where are you intervening as you would say in OD or organization development language.

And then kind of expanding on strategies, right? So that's kind of how you're ⁓ navigating and helping the system update or at the team level and the tactics or at the kind of process level or vision level, but for yourself as somebody coming into a new role 45 days in, what strategies are helping you navigate the transition? Charles Newnam What strategies are helping me? know, to some degree, it's almost like asking ⁓ a fish what water is.

Because I think I kind of almost intuitively do some things, but this is a good reflection point. One is like, I tend to be like a, I'm a very disciplined person. I don't say that because I just think that I've been told that by many people. I've been told that by Olympic athletes.

So, that kind of shocked me when I heard that actually. so to me, it's like, I'm going to find what works and I'm going to consistently do it day over day until I see the feedback loop come back to completion and then I'll make a tweak and then we'll keep driving. So for me, it's like, staying very disciplined. So like, I think this is going to work.

I'm going to give the time to test it. You what does that look like? What does success look like? What's the early indicators and how am going to pivot?

So I think, I think like that. I think the second thing is a prioritization. So like I said, it's kind of like drinking from a fire hose. I wouldn't say I'm a ruthless prioritizer, if I don't, if I don't have a sense of what are the top three things that I must get done this week, I will have failed myself.

If I don't have a sense of what those are, I'm kind of lost in the wind a little bit and I need to reground and kind of come back to like, what am I ultimately trying to do? And so at any point in time, I understand what my top three things are that need my focus. And then I don't forget about like the flywheels or the systems that I'm trying to get going. And am I, and am I putting a little bit of energy on those?

I don't have put a lot, but they need a little bit so that they can keep turning and eventually they'll spin fast. but yeah, those are probably that. And then I'd say, taking care of your body. Like, I know there's probably some other leaders out here.

They're gonna listen to this, you know, sleep and eat healthy and exercise. it'll change your life. So if you're not doing that, lot people sometimes say, how do you have the time to do that? And I look at them and say, how do you have the time not to do that?

Like that's, it just, it blows my mind. Uh, but yeah, eat well, drink water and exercise. Dr. Josh Elmore It's good advice, know.

⁓ It's not, it's true. It's not always easy to get those things done. You know, so thinking about, you know, I want to zoom in on that iterativeness, right? Where you said, or, you know, even the idea of kind of asking a fish what water is ⁓ and how you're kind of living, breathing this kind of like stepwise, everyday updating.

Do you have any examples of something that you've made an update to that maybe was your previous organizations, previous roles, you've come into this role and you see maybe a work style, work practice that you've leaned on in the past but maybe just doesn't fit as well here. Charles Newnam Yeah, that's a great one. I think I got into a point of Accenture, you know, being a principal director there in the strategy practice. You know, was, was getting pulled in as a subject matter expert on a lot of conversations.

And so, you know, and in a good way, you know, just to you know, I had a pretty high like bill rate. so it wasn't like, you know, people didn't, they wanted me around, but not too long. Right. So like you kind of had to get in, you had to, you had to do something smart and add some value and then you had to get out, you Um, and so I was very used to kind of coming in, listening for a little bit, you know, here's, here's the three things I think you should Um, you know, if you need some support along the way, great.

But then I kind of fade back out, right? They try those things, come back in a month. They retry new things. Here's what we're seeing.

What do you think? Maybe try this, do that, whatever. So I was kind of very, of more of like a peanut butter spread across my teams and my accounts and things like that. So we're I cannot take that posture.

There is, no one's done this before here. It's not like I have five, project managers that are running, you know, their own projects and the day to day and stuff like that. Like I am the day to day. I am like with the same team every day, you know, and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, different customers, different, you know, account managers, stuff like that. But my core team is the same team. And so I think what this is, what's required of this role is to be much more directive and much more, you know, working through that implementation of what we're trying to do and a lot more guidance than I'mm than I was used to, but I'm also comfortable flexing into that too. So I think that's been one thing that's been a bit of a shift, but a welcome shift.

Like it's not been hard necessarily, just different than I was operating after I left Accenture. Dr. Josh Elmore So kind of, you know, get that backward facing look and then looking forward, you know, what are you focusing on to help you in your transition kind of beyond 45 days? Charles Newnam Like, are you asking that more from like, am I specifically doing to keep me focused beyond 45 days or?

Dr. Josh Elmore What do you see your 45 days in and you've got this kind of reflective piece of, I've had to maybe change my posture here and this is a new role and looking ahead, I'm gonna be here for period of time, of course, and working through things. And that's part of the transition. What are you anticipating as it relates to kind of you to be successful in that transition?

What are you kind of aiming to accomplish or achieve? Charles Newnam Well, one, I mean, one is kind of planning, you know, and like looking at like, what am I, what do I hope to see and when, um, you know, I, before I, the week I started, I, I hammered out a four or five page a hundred day plan. And this is where I want to go. I've updated it a few times, you know, since then, and I'm kind of right in the middle of it.

And, you know, I'm, I'm more or less on track with what I kind of wanted to do. And so, you know, part, one of the things coming up in the next couple of weeks is probably going to be building a roadmap, my team, you where do we want to be? What do we want to have out there? And I'm learning of like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm starting to see, okay, we have some gaps, you know, here and there, like either it's a capability or capacity gaps.

And so, you know, is that really going to be a problem? Like, I don't know, but you know, let me keep a watch on that. ⁓ and so I think I'm looking at that and I think what I'm eager to understand in the immediate future are these systems that I'm putting in place. they, are they working?

Are we getting the early signal indicators that we wanted or is there more experimentation that needs to take place? so kind of guiding that in and then it'll become fine tuning. But I'm looking at some more, maybe some of the step changes. Like what are those potentially going to be in the next 45 days to three months?

And then ⁓ here in the next couple of weeks, we'll putting together North Star for the business unit. And I love for, you know, me to be able to shift to, you know, maybe 20 or 30 % of my time, you know, focused on that. And how are we driving that developing new product and things and kind of handling, um, you know, maybe 50 % of my time in front of customers. And then the rest is going to be kind of on maintaining those flywheels rolling and, you know, removing blockers and things like that.

So I think for me, it's just had to maybe I'm answering your question kind of implicitly, but it's, having an idea of where you want to be. And then kind of measuring yourself and reflecting on, am I, my actually doing what I have said that I want to do? And if not, why? And if you don't have a good reason, then it probably requires some more reflection or digging around what's going on, you know?

Dr. Josh Elmore And then reflecting on that, what's kind of the number one thing that you want to keep your finger on the pulse of to be able to kind of help make all of that successful? Charles Newnam Number one thing. a great question.

I think belief is probably the number one thing I want to pulse on like, do we believe that it's possible for us to be the best in the world at this stuff? And I certainly believe that. and I want to keep the pulse on that. Cause if once we lose the belief, then it'll be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And so, I'm eager to put some big wins on the board and say, look, everyone, this works. We can do this. And so once we start doing that, I think it's just going to keep putting it into that. There's old like Christmas movie, I think about like Santa Claus' meter on his sleigh or whatever.

And so it's like, if we, it's kind of thing in the same way, the more belief and the more evidence that we have on the outside of this is working. I think it's just going to be fuel in the rocket ship and we'll just continue to go. So I think that's what I want to keep, that's what I ultimately want to keep the pulse on. Cause if we're not believing, then I've got some more work to do and some convincing.

so yeah. Dr. Josh Elmore Yeah, very good. you know, kind of coming up to the end of the conversation here, what advice would you share with leaders currently entering a new high stakes role?

Charles Newnam Yeah, I think. My advice. I have something I would say. It might very well be just a projection.

I'd say the first thing is like, do whatever works best for you. That'd probably be the first thing. But then what I do stay grounded and I stay calm. I know what my purpose is.

I've at least convinced myself that I know why I'm on the earth. And I'm going to keep marching after that no matter what, literally no matter what. I don't the consequences, good or bad, don't matter to me. What matters to me is if I'm doing the work I feel like I'm put here to do.

So I don't know if everyone needs to find that and do it. Like I said, do whatever works for you. But I get a lot of peace and a lot of groundedness from just anchoring back to that, being like, I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And that's all I can ever ask of myself.

Dr. Josh Elmore You might say that you have belief, right? ⁓ Yeah, very good, very good. Well, Charles, thanks so much for taking the time to chat with us.

Is there anything that you'd like to share that's coming up for you or Perceptyx? Charles Newnam Yeah, true. Yeah, so I'll share one of my nonprofits that I lead, Wisdom for Humanity. We've got two things coming up this year.

I'll be going to Peru with a group to Machu Picchu. So if you're interested in doing some business development, personal development, professional development and spirituality, like come on down to Peru, we'll be doing some stuff there. I have another friend, dear friend that's leading a group in Greece a different week in September. So if you're interested in any of those, going to Delphi, Greece or going to Machu Picchu, let me know.

I'd love to consider bringing you along for the ride for that. And then with Perceptyx, we've got a pretty big conference coming up in May. I believe it's like the second week of May. But if you're interested in finding more about us or about me and what I think we're doing in the world and we're changing the world or impacting communities, I think that it'd be great to see you out in Chicago and come get to know us a little more.

So if you're interested in that, you can check it out on the website or get in touch with me and I can point you in the right direction. So those are kind of two things that are on top of mind that will be up to in the future. Dr. Josh Elmore Amazing.

Well, Charles, thanks again for sharing your wisdom, all your thoughts. 45 days in, super powerful moment, and really great to hear your present state of things. Charles Newnam Yeah, awesome. Thanks, Josh.

Appreciate you bringing me on. Dr. Josh Elmore Certainly. Land and Lead podcast is supported by my advisory work at Court Street Consulting.

I work with executives with expanded mandates, and leaders facing complex change to help them think clearly, learn in real time, and make consequential decisions. If you're navigating complexity where the stakes feel high and the path isn't obvious, that's the work that I do. Thanks so much for listening to the Land and Lead podcast. I'm your host, Dr.

Josh Elmore. Tune in next time for more stories from leaders navigating high stakes role transitions.