Beating Stage 4 Cancer: A Story of Miracles & Second Chances w/ Florence Shaffer | Ep. 32

Jason Tifford: All right, uh, Florence, welcome to the pod. Uh, it's great to have you here. Thanks. Thanks for coming on.

Florence Shaffer: Likewise. Always together.

Jason Tifford: Yes. Yes. All right. Let's just hop right in. So, uh, we were talking. The listeners. We were talking. Florence and I, uh, we've spoken before, and, uh. And one of our past conversations was about this, uh, model. Florence, what would you call this model?

Florence Shaffer: Yeah, we refer to it as the hidden architecture of human potential.

Jason Tifford: Okay.

Florence Shaffer: A lot of the invisible things that make up who we are as a whole, that we don't really know that's there and often are maybe some of the most important pieces of our life.

Jason Tifford: And for the listeners who are listening, this model is basically, uh, comprised of five domains. The physical, spiritual, emotional, intellectual, and relational. Is that right?

Florence Shaffer: That's right.

Jason Tifford: Okay. So I'm curious, So I see you use this model, um, around your, uh, business becoming. Um. I'm curious, like, what was sort of the inspiration behind using it and wanting to use it?

Florence Shaffer: Yeah, you know, I think it was something that came about when I was, you know, when I was an executive at, uh, Estee Lauder and Burberry. Before that, living in New York. Just recognizing that we're so busy and you get to this level of success, but there's not a lot of space to start thinking about, well, am I actually living the life that I want to right now? How do I make decisions? You know, where is that space? And then all of a sudden, Covid happened, and we all got a lot more space than maybe we wanted to start reflecting on some of those bigger existential questions. And while I, myself and, you know, many people around me have such a beautiful life, I think there was a deeper question of, well, actually, you know, what. What really fulfills me? And sort of, how am I thinking today about, you know, when I'm on my deathbed one day and I look back, did I do all the things that I really wanted to do? Did I show up in the world the way that I wanted to show up? And I think that many of us are doing our best in those regards. But I've started to realize that there's many aspects of life that we don't think about. And the spiritual, the social, um, and emotional aspects, I would say, are many of those. And I think when you're a top performer or you're very driven, as many people in New York, um, and Hong Kong, where I used to live are, there's a lot of focus on optimization and optimization of your physical vitality. Right. All the parts of, like, you hear about sleep, nutrition, exercise. You know, this. This all makes sense. And then there's also a look at mindset. You know, how do we have a growth mindset and how do we do that? And I think that I started to realize that many of the mental health challenges we have, the loneliness epidemic, a lot of the chronic diseases that haven't been around for a while that are not genetic, that suddenly started to pop up. Um, burnout. Right. Which is a. Been a hot topic for a long time. A lot of these things. I started to wonder, well, what's causing this? Because we are actually in one of the most abundant times of life. Why would this be the case that we have these human challenges? And I think when I started to dig into that, I started to realize we're actually quite disconnected from our emotions, uh, from our spirituality, um, from our relationships in this pursuit of performing and being successful. And I imagine once people do get the space to reflect on that, you start to, um, maybe have a little bit of a panic and say, well, what have I been doing? And is this really where I want?

Jason Tifford: So it sounds like this model was basically a way to conceptualize what some like. To conceptualize something that you were maybe yearning for that you didn't necessarily. You weren't aware of before.

Florence Shaffer: Yeah. What a beautiful way to say that. Yes. I think it's that. It's sort of that what you don't know, you don't know.

Jason Tifford: Yeah.

Florence Shaffer: And it was sort of those invisible forces that maybe aren't in our conscious everyday life, but I realize, really drive, I think, meaning, purpose, ah, fulfillment, joy, you know, all of these beautiful aspects that I would argue make up the great parts of our human existence. And somehow we found ourselves not really living them.

Jason Tifford: M. So you come across this, and is there, like, a specific part that stuck out to you? Uh, what was next for you once you found this?

Florence Shaffer: I think there was this. This deeper question about identity, like, who are we? And I started to realize that so much of our unconscious patterns actually dictate the way we live. And I'm sure you've heard 95% of our decisions are actually made by the unconscious. And when you think about this, this is actually quite frightening. It's like, well, okay, so what's going on in my unconscious? And so I started to look at some of the behaviors, belief systems, um, you know, maybe some of our emotional conditioning and our automatic habits and behaviors. And I started to look at that, and I realized that that's actually what's informing our identity. And as we go through life, we actually go through multiple identities and our identity is not really fixed. And so if those things that are unconscious are actually informing our identity, which is then informing our decisions, now we start to realize, well, actually going upstream and trying to understand, well, what are my limiting beliefs, what are my constrained, you know, maybe emotions and responses and habits and coping mechanisms that I've created probably to keep myself safe or a sense of protecting myself from the world, but actually has pulled me away from living in the world. Right. So these protective mechanisms can be useful, but if they just kind of go on unconsciously, they get you to a point where you actually realize you've actually disconnected with your life. And you've disconnected often in that case it means you've disconnected with yourself, you've disconnected with other people around you, your loved ones, finding your sense of belonging. Um, and I think in a way these avoidance of emotions become your way of operating.

Jason Tifford: Mhm. Yeah. So it sounds like, it sounds like you started this path of understanding and exploring, I would say investigating. Investigating like what these, I guess, subconscious behavior patterns, uh, were and how they were ruling your. Maybe not ruling, but yeah, how they were forcing you to maybe operate in your life. Um, so then what does that, like, what does that look like on a. Or what did that look like on a, uh, on a. I'm trying to think of the word, like an actualized level. Like what does that look like in the day to day? I guess that's what I'm trying to ask.

Florence Shaffer: Yeah. You mean the shift of it? Or what did it look like before I had this recognition?

Jason Tifford: Or what did you do to help, to help, uh, to help start the shift?

Florence Shaffer: Yeah, uh, yeah, I guess, you know, one of the ways that I think about this is sort of, you know, we have our phone and we have like the apps on the phone and if you think about us is the same as that hardware. It's sort of upgrading our, you know, us and our operating system. And, and the fact that between AI, all these things that are happening, right, We've got so many demands and so many expectations on us from society. And I think that as I started to think about that, I realized actually what really is happening is how do I move away from this sort of external locus of control or being so concerned about what's happening outside of myself to well, what do I really want? Like what's inside of me and what inner wisdoms do I have that I'm probably not hearing or paying attention to? Um, for some people that really just looks like creating space in their life, right? Like, so, you know, something I've always done, this is just me, is that, you know, I will go periods of time without being next to my phone, right? Because otherwise, again, I'm in this reactive mode. So it was really about how do I move myself away from having to respond and react to things coming at me from the external world so that I can create this space and this clarity to really start thinking. Yeah, the first step, right, is. Is really, is really awareness. Like, what am I. What are those habits that I'm doing? What am I doing and starting to look at? Actually, did I choose this? Um, you know, am I here at this event because I want to be here, or do I feel a sense of, um, guilt, shame, anger, betrayal, responsibility? You know, like, you start to look at all these things, you're like, why am I. Why am I here in this moment right now doing this thing? And when you start to really almost like, audit that, uh, you learn so much about your mode of operation. And then obviously, as soon as you see it, you can't unsee it. So now all of a sudden you're just starting to shift. And I think it's so liberating to really kind of have those moments and go, oh, I can choose this. And this is what I choose. This is what I don't choose. And I think through that pattern, you start to then, you know, start to feel a lot of, you know, what is. What is the uncomfortableness in this that is making me choose something potentially that I don't really want to do. Where is that coming from? Right. And so there's a lot of that awareness that comes up. But in our work, I think we're very lucky because we work with experts, right? So neuroscientists, um, clinical psychologists, um, people who do bodywork people, people who do breath work, hypnosis, you know, all of these different modalities, they're all just different mechanisms to try to gain self awareness and to also start to rewire and shift things, you know, into a more place of ease. So what I saw was as I started to be, you know, and I refer to it just being more aligned with yourself, right. Across all those areas you mentioned, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual and social. Once you start to align to and have that clarity of what you want, it's very strange. Like, life just becomes a lot easier and you start to think, like, why was I carrying all that baggage, carrying all this stuff that maybe wasn't even mine? And it felt like I was always just like, walking uphill and everything felt like so much work. And as soon as you start to realize, actually this habit is. Is something I learned from childhood from maybe my parents or the people around me. And, um, that's fine. Maybe it works for them, but it's not really mine. Right. And so you, like, kind of take off that one piece, and then you start to look over and you're like, hey, I have this coping mechanism from a time period where it was actually super helpful, but actually, in this stage of my life, it's actually the opposite. It's actually, like, holding me back or slowing me down or creating a sense of anxiety that I don't really need. So let me just release that. And so as you start to kind of release these things, all of a sudden you feel like, I can fly. I'm, like, liberated. And everything actually seems so much simpler. So I think those quick feedback loops start to almost create this momentum. And before you know it, you're just leaving, living a much more life that's in flow and ease. And you look back and you say, well, why would I ever go back to 10 years?

Jason Tifford: Yeah.

Florence Shaffer: Wow.

Jason Tifford: So which. The. Something that really stuck out to me, too, was, like, carving out those moments, for instance, like, away from your phone and those moments of silence. Would you say that that. Would you say that that, for you, is what really? Um, yeah. Do you think that was, like, one of the biggest. Biggest parts of being able to, like, identify what is maybe not aligned?

Florence Shaffer: Yeah, well, I think there was, yes. I think absolutely. That was like, step number one. Um, and then I would say step number two was recognizing that my nervous system, when it was in a fight or flight mode and when it was super in this calm mode. And, um, for me, part of it happened when I was working with one of my experts, and he actually shifted something physically on me.

Jason Tifford: And.

Florence Shaffer: And I realized, like, my diaphragm, it was just so constrained that I actually wasn't breathing correctly. And I was like, I'm sorry. I am like, you know, at the time, I was in my, like, mid-30s. I was like, I've gotten to this point and I don't even know how to breathe. And you realize, actually most of us are breathing in a very shallow way, which obviously causes more anxiety. And I'll. To another level. I was working in fashion, and I love clothing, um, and some. I love skirts. And. And a lot of times they pin at your waist. Right. And so now all of a sudden, you're actually, you know, holding your posture in this way that's actually again, very difficult to breathe. So over the day I was creating more and more anxiety for myself without realizing it.

Jason Tifford: Wow.

Florence Shaffer: And so when this, this tiny shift to kind of open up my diaphragm happened, I suddenly felt like the two halves of my body reconnected. I suddenly understood when people said, breathe from your belly, what that actually meant. And what was interesting to me is I actually spent about two weeks feeling kind of weird. And I told my, this is a Feldenkrais instructor in New York. I said, I don't know that I like this feeling. And he said, well, what do you mean? And I said, well, I used to wake up at, you know, 5:15 every morning. I'd have my workouts, I do all my things. And I was like ready to go. And he said, well, you were living in fight or flight mode. You were in this state of constant vigilance and constant anxiety. And that was what was motivating and driving you.

Jason Tifford: Wow.

Florence Shaffer: Now you're actually having to recognize and understand that that was actually a very unhealthy form of motivation. And, and so how I felt in my body was, I actually felt really calm. I felt like everything was going to be okay, but I was almost so not used to that that I thought that it was bad or wrong. And so after those, like kind of when he said that and I realized, oh, you're right. Like, I actually feel safe, I feel okay. I feel like everything's fine. I feel like I can again breathe. And once, um, I re baselined, I've sort of never operated from that sense of anxiety again. And I realized that now all of my motivation feels very intrinsic and it feels, you know, it's interesting because now I have the same amount of sort of motivation, passion, energy, but it's not that kind of nervous, fearful based motivation. It's actually a place of purpose and, you know, drive that feels very aligned with the impact I'm trying to make.

Jason Tifford: Wow, that's so fascinating. And correct me if I'm wrong too, but the last time we spoke, it seemed like there was this one moment, um, when you had realized when you had released something from your body and that's when you knew your body was like, able to fight off cancer. Cancer. It was cancer, right?

Florence Shaffer: Yes, that's right. Yeah. Um, after we had built this, this Life Reset program that again, looks at the unconscious behaviors, it was so fascinating because two weeks before we had our official public launch out of nowhere, the doctor said, you have stage four cancer. And I was, some part of me was Quite shocked because we have no family history, no symptoms. I have been doing all the longevity biomarker blood tests for years. Wow. All of this, if you looked at it from an external perspective, you know, I'm very successful, I'm very happy. And all of my physical health markers would show the same thing. Like they said I had like optimal cholesterol, optimal. Like these numbers could not have been better. And so I remember some part of me rationally thinking this doesn't make any sense, and then some part deeper in me knowing, well, of course this is the case. This is that like invisible architecture we're talking about. This is that invisible piece that there was always something that felt like it was missing. There was like an emptiness, there was some fulfillment that wasn't there that I couldn't put my finger on. And when they heard this, I suddenly felt liberated because this kind of almost crazy feeling of like, well, what am I searching for? Because it seems like everything's fine. Almost was confronted with, you know, the truth of kind of how I really felt. Like something was off, something was misaligned. And so my, you know, team of all these different 20 plus experts said, obviously you made this maybe for yourself, maybe you knew that you were going to need this. So let's go through it. And I went through the, you know, the four day program myself of this customized, um, work that I needed to do. And you know, it was interesting when you theoretically know things are going to work, you test it and you work with other people on it and you see them having their transformations, but then obviously to go through it yourself. And the true sense of, the best word I can say is liberation and surrender to the fact that this was so the warning sign of the thing that I needed to help me understand that it was time for me to really focus on myself and do my own realignment. And uh, one of the big things that I was going to talk about, so we talked about creating that space and clarity, right, so that you can actually start to just have that self awareness number one for me. Number two was that understanding my nervous system, resetting it so that I was no longer reacting. Right now I'm suddenly able to feel calm, grounded. The world is still chaotic, but I could, I could respond to it in a way without it just being, you know, a fight or flight response. And then the third thing was really what I would call emotional processing. I don't know if you've read that book, the Body Keeps Score, but this idea that I think with the western world again coming back to physical and mental. I had done everything to optimize. And I was super mentally resilient physically at this peak health as defined by my biomarkers and just my energy levels and all of that. And somehow I didn't realize that I was emotionally bypassing. I would just kind of move through some life event thinking that because mentally I moved past it, I felt good about it. I have a growth mindset. Everything seemed fine. I didn't actually realize that I hadn't allowed myself to feel and process the emotions and move them through my body. And what was ending up happening is they were stuck. And by being in different parts of me, right, Causing. I should have known, right? I. I get migraines, you know, brain fog. You get chronic pains, right? People have back pains, you know, the. All these sorts of things. Things where it's almost like. It's almost like if you're driving a car and there's these warning lights and it's like, hey, you're pushing yourself too hard. You know, you might be reaching some sort of. You're going to reach burnout if you don't. And you just kind of, as a successful person, you just think that success is pushing through those. You're like, oh, yeah, no problem. The warning light went on. No problem. We'll go sort of the gas light goes on. You're like, that's okay. We can still do like another 40 miles, you know, it's fine. Like, we'll figure it out. And literally, uh, when I, when I found out I had the stage four cancer, I mean, I went from nothing to stage four, I was like, got it. Like, the wheels, like, fell off my car. And it was kind of like I actually laughed because it was so outrageous that I realized how many warning lights did I just push through and think that that was, you know, something to be proud of. How many times did I sleep three hours a night and go, like, this is great. I'm super strong. And it's like I missed the plot. Like, I just missed the point of life. And here I was super successful. And that's, that's the weird thing is, like, you can feel very happy and have all these happy moments, but again, if you're not kind of taking that space to just sit there and go, yeah, but something feels off. And I don't know why, but you're. You're. You're on that conveyor belt, right? And then you get that moment and you go, nope, something is off. And I think we have, you know, whether it's a Mental health challenge. It's, again, loneliness, um, some sense of, like, emptiness or lack of fulfillment or even just like a chronic disease or a disease that suddenly pops up. And it's almost like the world telling you, hey, you know, you're on the wrong path. Like, what is there that's here for you that you're not seeing and that, you know, it comes back to that hidden architecture piece. And for me, when I found this out and I did the, uh. I did an emotional audit. I went back and I went through the most important relationships in my life. And I went through these different emotions of guilt, shame, sadness, anger, fear. And I just wrote these down, and I just sat with these different sort of people, and I was like, do I have any of these feelings that are sort of residually there? And what was so crazy is, for the most part, not really. But there was two moments that popped up that I never think about that are not even traumatic. I would say. They're just like such. Almost like if I were to tell you what it was, you. You wouldn't think much about the situation or even the conversation. But for whatever reason, I created meaning into that consciously or unconsciously. And based on some sort of feeling of sort of shame or betrayal or guilt that I felt about that conversation in that moment, I realized, looking back, I created an entire kind of protection mechanism. And I'll explain it just to make it more tangible. In this case, I told myself, no one's ever gonna help me. So, like, I had to. If something hard happened, I had to emotionally, you know, protect myself through it. I had. I had to be the one to make myself feel better. I, uh, had to be the one to fix it. I had to be the one to do that. And in this just kind of moment. And it's interesting because this person who's very loving doesn't even understand that their response to it is. Is, you know, I took this. Their response as, uh, this whole narrative of this, and just kind of made this kind of the rest of my life where I was like, okay, from now on, this is how I'm going to operate. And I think that, you know, probably not atypical of women, m. Or successful people to just be like, I just got to figure it out on my own. You know, it's just. And then, you know, that small seed suddenly defines how you create all your relationships romantically or friendship wise, you know, determines how you operate at work. You know, not asking for help. You know, you just start to see. And I look back and I realize that this moment, like, probably 15 years ago, made me operate in this way every day. That. Yeah. Made me less connected to my friends and my family. That made me, um, work a lot harder to perform when I could have probably just asked for help or, you know, done a bit less. Um. Absolutely. You know, probably created some forms of little resentment in me. Um, when, in fact, like, I was the one who had, you know, done this in a way, to myself. Like, I was one. Creating the scenario. And it creates this form of sort of that isolation of like, well, I'm trying to be good. I'm trying to do all these. Right. Things. Things. But what's the point of that? You know, it makes you feel so, Again, um, disconnected from, again, the broader sense of what I. What I define as sort of spirituality, but, like, where you fit inside this bigger world of something that is more. And you just feel kind of alone and separated from it. And I think that is almost the biggest fuel of one side. Right. Is like, if you're just from this whole. From this consciousness. You know, for some people, it's a faith, it's a religion. It's just, you know, if you're, uh, nature, whatever it is for you, if you're disconnected from that spiritual aspect, it's like you're not getting nourished at such a soul level that can only, you know, turn into a, um. Sort of this. I think this. A shell of a person. Right. Well, I see this so much amongst peers, friends. And I think that's when I realized, like, this is not only my own journey, but something that is obviously a deep purpose for me is to help people sort of reconnect back to that.

Jason Tifford: Yeah.

Florence Shaffer: Who they are in this bigger system that is just once you connect back in, you're like, oh, my gosh. I feel fueled on such a different level.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. Think.

Florence Shaffer: Okay. I never want to disconnect from this hole again.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. Wow. There's so much there. Um. Yeah. The. The first thing that really stuck out to me was how you built this business. And then there was almost like a testimony there of how it helped you heal. Like, this thing that you built ended up working for you in a way that you probably didn't even imagine.

Florence Shaffer: Never. Never. I think, um, you know, four months. I don't know if I actually said that. I know my team always says I'm terrible about remembering to tell people that basically the cancer is gone. But, um, you know, after I did that emotional audit and I felt this release and I felt this alignment and like I said, sort of this reconnection to the whole. A few months later, when I went to MD Anderson and they said, well, we can't find your cancer. And I was like, what? You know, this is five months after I'm diagnosed. And in my mind, again, I had surrendered to whatever was. Would be, but I didn't understand that that was even possible. And again, it sort of made sense to me because I just felt like so many parts of me had been healed in that. And I just felt like everything was going to be okay. I felt connected to myself. I felt like the whole world, everybody was like. I felt held by just all aspects of that. And you feel so wonderfully small. But I mean, that possible. You just realize, like, I've been striving and pushing and trying for so long to, quote, unquote, be successful and do all the right things, and you actually realize, well, you're actually okay the whole time. You actually just need to do less. You actually just need to in with these things, and it's so counterproductive to what we think. And. And, um, yeah, that, like I said, theoretically and I had seen, like, I knew this made sense. You know, we had had so many people go through the program, and I had seen their changes, but never in my life would I have understood the depth to which it really, truly realigned. And more than anything, just liberated me from. From. From my own complex creation of my, uh, my own suffering. Like, suddenly I was just liberated and realized, like I did for the first time, I think, truly have, like, a deep faith, you know, Um, I started to understand what that meant. I'm like, I have faith in everything that is bigger than me in everything being okay. And I understand that everything that I am right now is exactly what I need to be. I can accept that. And of course, there's always more growth to be had and things like that, but I don't need to worry about any of that. I am just me.

Jason Tifford: Wow. Wow. That is powerful. And, yeah, I think, also powerful and also inspiring too, you know, um, like, it to me, like, I hear that and I hear, like, it's. It's never too. It's never like, too late to lose. To lose faith.

Florence Shaffer: Yeah.

Jason Tifford: And. And also, like, look what has come from that in a way, you know, it's. It's like now, like, think. Yeah. My question too is like, how has the. How has your work becoming changed from before you were sick to where you are now?

Florence Shaffer: I think there's a. For me personally, there's just a deeper knowing, and I Think that that gives me a lot of patience. Um, you know, we had purposely as a team, we'd all come together and determined and decided that we were going to make sure that above anything else, that this is about the impact we can create for people and that we would grow in a way that is truly in that integrity and that alignment. And I think when I went through this experience, I started to realize that not only is that the case, but, you know, I was just at Brilliant Minds in Stockholm and I got to meet, you know, people who are pretty big in the longevity space, right? I got to meet Mark Hyman, I got to meet Brian Johnson. Um, really Brian is Brian and his co founder, Kate. I got to talk to them for quite a while. Just really lovely people.

Jason Tifford: Never, never want to die guy.

Florence Shaffer: Don't die. Not at all. Uh, it reminds you of the, you know, and I expected that. But the media portrays a certain thing like such a grounded, lovely human being. And we have such like a similar. You would never guess that from media, but we have such a similar ideology about living and living today and just what that means. But the reason I bring that up is I think that this personal experience I had, I think gave me. It's sort of like this deeper knowing and gravitas that made me understand that what I have experienced and what we are seeing with, uh, the people that are going through the program is that, that there is truly something here. And when other people don't really understand that, that's okay because we are on the front edge of creating something new and that there's no, again, coming back to this sort of surrender versus force. I don't need to convince anybody to do anything that they're not ready for. And for us, uh, about meeting people where they're at and the people that resonates with the people who are saying like, yes, I totally get that, like, something is missing feeling great, they will come find us. They will have, you know, their transformative experience. And from there it really creates to me something that is really centered and very grounded and can organically, um, become this movement that people start to understand that they understand connecting back into themselves, having a wider form of, um, you know, belonging and spirituality is actually something that we've really lost in our society and want to have back. And it might not look like it used to look, but that's fine because we're moving into the modern world. But how important it is, especially as AI and technology proliferate, it's really this asking us this question, what does it Mean to be human? And what does the human experience mean? Where do we want to spend our time? Who do we want to spend our time with? How do we want to spend our time? These are the type of questions that we're trying to answer with this program for each person is how do we create the environment that you can ask this for yourself and decide this for yourself with the support of people who are going through that same process, but then also with all these experts that can help you look at it from all these different angles and make sense for you. And I think that, um, Arthur Brooks also talked at Brilliant Minds. He's that Harvard professor that talks about happiness. And it was so cool to hear him effectively say, look, these are the important things that actually can make you happier. They were, they were spiritual, they were social. They were the things that people are not measuring or talking about. And again, like, just to feel so. Just an inner peace about it all. I think that's what. What changed for me before and after it was really just, this is going to happen. There's many other people out there that we can collaborate with to make this happen. Um, and in a way, there's not really a rush because again, having the faith that people are starting to all kind of have this conscious awakening that this is something that is really going to help us, you know, shift m. Just the way that we found each other. I, um, think I had. Was doing something right. Like I was doing one thing to find something, and then I ended up going down this rabbit hole because I saw something, I think that you had written and there was no way for me to have like, proactively tried to search for you or find you. And I think that we are finding each other in these conversations. I think we're going to make this focus, think stronger.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. Wow. And it sounds like too, that something that came from that too is also a, like a deeper sense of like knowing your own purpose within. Within that.

Florence Shaffer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Tifford: And as you're saying that I was thinking of, like, I was thinking myself and just trying to think about how I've been approaching how I run my business now versus how I ran it six months ago or a year ago or two years ago. And uh, yeah, I mean, there's still a part of me that is like, all right, got to make things happen. Got to make things happen, you know, And I really empathize with your journey in that way too. Of. Because I feel like prior for me, I guess that big kind of wake up call was when I. When my when my dad got sick. And just like the. For me, it was more so like the. The buildup of emotions that I wasn't capable of processing and that really like, forced me to look at how I was living my life and to really to change it because I didn't have space to be able to process grief. And like, it got to it. I feel like it wasn't even me making. It wasn't m. I would be lying if I said it was me making a proactive choice. It, like, got to the point where, like, it broke me down to the point where, like, I had to. I had to change. Otherwise it was, I don't know, just be depressed and probably want to take my life or something. Um, so. But yeah, I think since then it's been a. For me, it's been a process of like, okay, how can I. How can I, like, start to really listen into what I'm meant to do? And also, even when I know what I'm meant to do, how can I still have faith in that process and not try to do it myself? Yeah, that's been a challenge, I would say, for me, more so recently. Um, I'm curious how you kind of. What your perspective is on that too.

Florence Shaffer: Yeah, I think that that really resonates with me where you said, you know, where is the, uh, getting something done versus kind of allowing almost the world or something to kind of help. Help you move along. And I think what I've started to realize is that instead of, again, instead of trying to do and push and all these things, I have to start with a lot of clarity and just almost. I mean, I think of it almost physically like I'm and standing here very grounded and very clear on what intention I have. And then through that I'm having more than I think. When you're trying to achieve something, you often look for the thing that you think is going to help you get there the fastest. Right. Uh, and I think what I've learned through life is that a lot of times that thing that you think is going to get you there the fastest, it might get you something for sure, but you miss so many other opportunities you weren't even aware of. So I come back to this you don't know what you don't know piece. And I realize that by being so aligned and then you start to have actually just conversations and you start to find other values aligned people. And through that those values align people, you end up creating or new opportunities that again, could have never come about if you hadn't found each other or there's a door open that you didn't even know was a door and it's because you spoke your truth and what you felt like was really something important. And I think that taking the time to really just have those conversations and to explore that, I realized those are the, those are almost the, uh, synchronicities or even the spontaneity that we don't allow for very often and in our daily lives. So in a business perspective, there's so many things that there is, you know, if I, if I made the choice and I said, okay, I made my strategy plan and I'm going to like hit all of these targets in a way that would get me so far. But what I'm seeing is by not letting go of that completely, but I also giving myself this space to do these kind of unknown, like exploring this unknown area. These are getting me much further, I would say. And sometimes it looks like you're going backwards. I will say that, you know, sometimes as you do this, you feel like, oh my gosh, like maybe if I had just done that, like I'd be further along and you start to realize this is not a linear path, but it absolutely leapfrogs you to, um, just that you would have never imagined. And I think, wow, that faith that as long as you stay in that integrity and you know, you find these things like it is. I mean, I have many examples over the last several months that have just found me where, where I needed to be. And, and I think if we take that to the kind of micro back to our everyday life, imagine all those moments where you have a packed schedule and there's so many things to do, whether you're like, let's say you're traveling, right? And you just like block it in. And then you have this moment where it's like, actually, I didn't, I didn't plan this hour and I have like an hour and you just end up randomly strolling around somewhere. You might strike up a conversation with somebody, you know, you might do something you never did before. And I think some of the most joyous, surprising, beautiful moments happen in those liminal, unexpected, like spaces. And I think that ways we've lost that because we've so over optimized our schedules and how we operate that we don't have those spaces for creativity, for the, you know, the unexpected to happen. And I think that, you know, that can take away from, from your joy.

Jason Tifford: Yeah, absolutely. Wow. So what would you say? How would you, uh, how would you define Your relationship with your spirituality now.

Florence Shaffer: Great question. I. I would say that it operates on many different levels. So, um, I was raised Catholic and I liked the community aspect of it. But I wouldn't say I ever really like. By the time I got to college, I didn't really kind of engage in much of the religious aspects. And I've um, have so many friends that are multiple religions. So I think for me what was interesting is I now have religion has come back into my world in this way of actually I'm going into these different communities and I love the, the reminder and the community aspect of these things. So I will go to different synagogues or churches with, with my friends. So that's one really interesting again kind of community oriented aspect to just a reminder of how in a way insignificant we are as a human, as an individual, but that somehow at the same time we're so magical when we're all connected together and beautiful. So I think for me that ritual or that reminder is really nice. Um, I would say though more so, um, I find myself feeling much more spiritual in the moment. So what I mean by that is I do feel really connected to nature. I do feel really like as I. I have a different childlike wonder that defines how I move through the life. And I'm sure my friends are like, what's, what's she doing? But like sometimes I'll see like these plants or something and I'll just start to stare at it and really start to realize that so many of the things around me that I took for granted are actually incredibly wondrous. And you just to look at them and you feel like you're seeing things for the first time and you actually see, think, wow, this is like, this is part of my experience. Like, this is incredible. And I think that again, like sort of almost childlike wonder, not. Not forgetting how magical the world is. Probably like my biggest reminder that this spirituality exists in every single second and moment of interaction I'm having.

Jason Tifford: M. Does it ever bring up the question of like, who made all this?

Florence Shaffer: It's a great question. I think for whatever reason, I feel like the older I get and the more work I do, the more I realize again, kind of back to this. I have no idea what I don't know that I often feel like I probably can't fathom or understand that question, that it's probably not even like a linear question and slightly so I enjoy kind of contemplating. But I think I often feel like it's sort of a moot point for me because it's probably something that my mind at this moment couldn't figure out.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. That made me think of something too. And it's. And like I perceive that as, and like through my own experience I would say that it's far more important to like have that relationship with. Yeah. With that rather than being able to cognitively know it, if that makes sense.

Florence Shaffer: Yeah, yeah. I will say that I do feel, and this is very hard to describe, but I feel like other people who feel this will understand. What I mean is that I feel like whatever it is, is within me and part of me and.

Jason Tifford: Yeah.

Florence Shaffer: Speaking to me. So.

Jason Tifford: Yeah.

Florence Shaffer: Uh, I don't really understand how when people would say that I didn't, I believed them, but I didn't really understand what that meant. And I think when you're on that other side of that experience and you have that just deep peace and faith that you realize, oh, again, like it doesn't sort of matter because you have that relationship with it where you just. Yeah. Uh, just know.

Jason Tifford: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I interpret. I, Yeah, I experience that and I, to me that what I think that is is like our relationship with God as the one who created everything, but also that like the Holy Spirit lives within us and that God can communicate through us and, and to us. And uh, also I think like this, this notion of like a relationship with the Creator and religion as a doctrine are two very different things. And I think nowadays very oftentimes they get uh, they get warped into one. You know, And I think, I think our relationship with that is different than a. Yeah. A doctrine that we. Yeah, it's different than a doctrine. And uh. Yeah. What do you think about that?

Florence Shaffer: Yeah, yeah, I think it's, it's so interesting, especially more in the US than anywhere else, that I feel like the religious conversation makes a lot of people feel really uncomfortable because like there's a lot of, there's a lot of hidden meaning for different people in, in these conversations that you know, unless you know the person really well, you're never going to really understand. No. So I do feel like it's always, it can be a sticky subject or people can understand what you're trying to say when you convey these things. But absolutely. I think, you know, with my friend group, again, most of my friends are either non religious, sometimes very anti religion and, or very different religions. And uh, what I think unites us is none of us have a problem with that with each other because I think what binds us is that we all have a sense of understanding that if One of our friends talks about kind of pure consciousness. That's the same thing as when somebody else talks about their God, which then something else, you know. And so I think that in a way there's sort of this. This ability that we've kind of lost in society to respect and understand each other's, you know, what. What faith looks like for each of us and what sense of believing in something bigger. Um, but I will say that the commonality is that there is an understanding that, you know, none of my friends are narcissists. You know, it's not about just me. It's not about I. The common thing I can say is that all these people understand that you have a role that is bigger than you and what comes above you is this sort of how are we as a collective doing what we can to. To further the human species in a way that is honoring everything that is.

Jason Tifford: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, I think that's really beautifully said. And I think there is. Yeah, I think there is a challenge, though, like, what I've experienced, um, as someone who grew up Jewish, secular Jewish, and then got like, very into like, New Age spirituality. I think there is a. I think there is a seduction to, like, the New Age spirituality in the fact that it is, uh. That it can be very much pick what works for you and without necessarily having the. Yeah, I guess the framework to. Yeah. The framework of like, what is good versus evil. Um, yeah. So. And. And I think it's also like, what I believe now as a Christian, you know, is it's not that. It's not that, like, if something. If somebody else does something that is like whatever, considered sin. Right. It's not my role to. To judge them for that. You know, I think because, like, I. I sin in my own life. So what authority. Like, I don't have any authority to. To do that over somebody else's life. So. Yeah, that's something that just that I. I noticed of, like. And as somebody who is like, studying spirituality at the master's level and taking like, psychedelics and involved in different New age spirituality circles. Um, yeah, just something that I noticed. And I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that if somebody does that, that they're evil, you know, But I'm just saying that I think if somebody is listening and they are in those circles, I would just encourage them to just be skeptical. You know, even if you're going to church, I think you should be skeptical. Um, yeah,

Florence Shaffer: I love that.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. Uh, what, uh, yeah, what. Do you have any Questions? Any questions for me?

Florence Shaffer: Yeah, I think what does your, how does your spirituality, I guess, play a part in sort of your day to day life?

Jason Tifford: Uh, yeah, great question. Um, yeah, so I believe that, yeah, I believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins. I um, believe that he was resurrected. And for me, like, that's like my faith is my belief in God and I, look, I believe that those things happened, you know, but at the same time I don't think you can really know, you know, I don't think you can really know for certain. But like, I don't think that's, that doesn't stop me from believing and having faith. Um, and what my spirituality, how that plays into my day. Um, like I try to, yeah, I. Similar to like I try to carve out those moments of quiet where I can, for me, where I can hear God's voice, um, and how I can go about doing things in a way that aren't, that aren't just about me, you know. And I think, look, I'm still human, you know, I still mess up and I still sin and I'm still, yeah, I still do a lot of things that aren't perfect and I'll never be perfect. But at the same time that process for me is more about how can I get into a deeper relationship with what that is and how can I, how can I try to live my life in more of alignment and get out of my own way of. How can I get more out of my way, you know? And I think that on a practical level those practices look like, for me they look like reading the Bible. It looks like journaling, it looks like praying, it looks like singing and like worshiping. Uh, it looks like getting into community with people and reading, uh, the Bible together or reading, getting into communities, uh, getting into community with like other guys and uh, opening up and being vulnerable with the struggles in our lives. Uh, it looks like trying to, trying to be a better son and father and, or not father yet, but soon to be father, not that soon. If my mom's saying this should freak out, um, better friend, you know, like trying to just get out of, get, get out of my own way and try to be like less selfish and more focused on like serving others. And I know this sounds like super idealistic, but I think that's like, that's what it is because we're only here for a short amount of time and, and it's like, like what really matters, you know, I think when we're like, when we're serving other people and we're doing something from our heart like that. Like, that's what it's all about. And that feeling is like, there's no better feeling than that. And, uh. Yeah, that's the end. Yeah. Does that, uh. Yeah.

Florence Shaffer: Yeah. That was beautiful.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. Are there things, I'm curious, are there things that you would, I guess, add or just disagree with?

Florence Shaffer: No, I don't, I don't think so. I think similarly, it is just trying to stay very aware of areas that I can, I think, uh, the way I define this sort of show up in that full appreciation, gratitude and integrity.

Jason Tifford: Yeah.

Florence Shaffer: And I think what's interesting is I realize how little I have to worry about the future if I do that. Because it just feels like if you do that sort of everything figures itself out. Right. By having approach. Like, I don't have to worry about, am I going to be on my deathbed and, and yeah. Saying, did I do everything I could do? Or, um. Because I did.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious too. Are there, like, if they're. Yeah. When times when you are not doing that, do you find. Yeah. What, uh, in times when you don't do that, what is your dialogue with yourself? Do you ever, like, beat up on yourself or how do you get back on track? What does that look like?

Florence Shaffer: I think I used to, I think if I'm not, then it's usually me just recognizing, well, why am I not? And then the answer is, most likely I'm a little tired and I need some rest. And so I think, and, and when I say that, I mean, like, proactively, sort of doing different things or, you know, and I, I, I think I give myself just a lot more grace and realize, again, like, we've got not a lot of time on this planet, but at the same time, like, we have enough. And, uh, I, Yeah, I don't, I don't think anymore that I look back and go, I should have done xyz, because we do the best we can with the information we have. And so now it's just taking that. And I think all of these moments where you have that realization is like, oh, I didn't do that, or I could have done that is actually just information for the future to help you understand. Oh, well, now I can do this differently. Um, but yeah, it's. For me, it's been really interesting to feel that sense of, again, that sense of peace that comes with all of this. And I think that my latest realization where I feel like I can do more, I can expand is in saying things that are uncomfortable, that might ruffle some feathers because I do believe that it's a conversation that needs to be had. And I did that in a way for the first time after just coming back from Brilliant Minds. And the theme this year was kindness, humankind, what does it mean to be kind? And it was such a beautiful conversation that was had. Um, and all of the talks kind of fed into this, this question. And I think it's a beautiful question that we don't often ask ourselves. And I think that it made me think a lot about a lot of the violence and things that are happening in the world that, you know, frankly, are very hard. I think as an empathetic person like myself, to read about and hear about, um, because I am m very visual, so I will imagine it. And it really, um, it really, I suppose, affects me. And I think that, you know, instead of just trying to wonder, well, what does that mean? What can I say? What can I do? And thinking that there's nothing I can do actually, well, I think I can say something. I can say, you know, how at the end of the day it's, I think for me just moving out of political conversations, identity conversations, and just being about how do we want to treat other humans and how do we think about that and what is our role wherever we are, however far we are, even if it's just in a conversation with a friend, is just pointing out that this is not something that any of us would want to see for any of our fellow humans. And I think the more of those uncomfortable conversations that can be had. But again, I'm hopeful in a way that is thoughtful and transcending any sort

Jason Tifford: of

Florence Shaffer: unnecessary, sort of, um, like not making it personal or not making it just like identities. Yeah, yeah. Separating it from the other challenges that are happening is like, let's actually go down again deeper to that root of like, well, what are we really talking about? It's really human decency, human dignity and respect. And I think if we, if we have conversations there, I think we can find a way to transcend the differences that we are, the different ideas that we are, and recognize that at the end of the day, I do think that we have a common humanity that can help us move through these difficult times.

Jason Tifford: Yeah, yeah, I can really empathize with that too. Um, and probably not at the same high stakes level, but for me, at least a lot of these uncomfortable conversations recently have been, uh, with my family and with getting like, coming from a secular Jewish family and then wanting to get baptized and then Wanting and then getting engaged and all these things, uh, on a timeline that would. Is probably different than what they expected. Um, has. Has really forced me, for the first time in my life, to have a lot of uncomfortable conversations with them. Um, but it's. I feel like it's a lot easier for me, at least when I know I need to do it, you know, and for me, like, that comes when either it's made so apparent where I have to and I just know it, or if I'm praying in my quiet time when that comes up. And it's subtle and it's like, you need to have this conversation because then it's. Then it's like, okay, like, this isn't. It's. This isn't about me doing this at this point. Like, if you're telling me to do this, then it needs to be done. And if I. I'm not gonna. I might not do it perfectly. I probably won't. But, like, if. If you're helping me, then let's do it, you know? And, uh, it's been really fruitful, honestly. And it's been. It's made other aspects of my life better, like my relationships. It's easier to have those kind of conversations and set boundaries and, uh. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's. It seems that it's just never ending, you know, there's always going to be something to do. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh, yeah, that's kind of. That's all the questions that I had. Do you have any other questions before we wrap up?

Florence Shaffer: Yeah. Um. What were you hoping to get out of our conversation today?

Jason Tifford: Uh, what was I hoping to get out of our conversation? Um, that's a good question. And recently we. What I've been trying to do is just get out of the way, you know, like, get out of the way. And I think it can be very, uh, seductive for me to want to, like, steer the conversation towards, like, my own biases, you know, like the gospel and how that might be. How that might. Yeah, you know, the gospels and other people's relationships with. With that. But I think there's also times, like, for instance, today where it's like, I don't. It's not necessary, you know, um. Or. Yeah, it's either I. Yeah, it. It's not necessary or it wouldn't be fruitful sometimes. So I think that recently it's been more about, like, trying to get out of the way. And so today it was kind of just, uh. I just wanted to hear your story. I wanted to hear. Really get into the model. I thought that was really interesting, and I wanted to see, like, hey, is this. Is this something that's being, uh, I guess, pedestalized or maybe more glorified than just being a tool? Um, which I didn't think it was. Um, and also getting into how maybe that. How your story impacted or. Yeah. How your life experiences impacted, uh, you using, um, that model for your business and in your. In the rest of your life. And, uh, Yeah, I would say that.

Florence Shaffer: Well, thank you for. Yeah, thank you for the conversation. I felt like it was, um, not. What I find interesting is often when you're expressing yourself and you're telling your story, you actually start to, uh, make more sense of it than maybe you would have realized before. So thank you for helping me kind of walk through it, and I think through doing that, having even more clarity.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. Oh, my pleasure. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. I really enjoyed this, and I really believe in, uh. I really believe in what you're doing, the heart behind what you're doing, and just the mission. Um, I feel like this is just the beginning for whatever you guys are doing, so I'm excited to see what.