When Travel Turns Into a Prophetic Calling

Jason Tifford: All right, we are live. All right. Uh, Chris, would you mind just giving the audience a bit of, uh, background of who you are, what you do?

Chris: Yeah, sure. Thanks, Jason. So I am a New Zealander and living back in New Zealand, although having spent a reasonable chunk of my life overseas, um, at the age of 12, we moved to Australia for six years. And I spent 16 years, uh, in the UK, in England, and plus a year in Vancouver, Canada, plus a lot of time just traveling as well. And I am the, uh, marriage to my wife Audrey, and got two boys, Raphael and Gabriel. They are, uh, 12 and 14. And, uh, the family's rounded out with our labradoodle, uh, dog Zola, who might appear on the screen at some point as well. Who knows? Um, and I have been running Hands Up Holidays for. Well, we've been live to the public for nearly 20 years now. We launched in 2006, and I got the idea for it in back in 2002 on a trip I took to South Africa, where in addition to going on safari and exploring the wonders of Cape Town and the garden route and places like that, I also helped to build a house for a family in one of the townships, uh, the slum area just outside of Cape Town. And this just enriched the whole travel experience so much for me in two main ways. One, in contrast to all the travel I'd done leading up to that, in that experience, I actually got to interact with the local people and gain insights into their lives and hear their stories. And then secondly, it just felt great to actually make a difference to the family, provide them with a decent place to live. And so I thought, well, I've, uh, learned some good business skills. Why don't I put them into something I find a bit more meaningful and fulfilling and make it easy for others to have experiences like I just had. And so my next move really was to, uh, essentially take a year out. And that year that I had in Vancouver was actually at a theological, uh, school called, uh, Regent College there. And that's where this idea really took root for me. And, um, I took a class called the Soul of the Entrepreneur, where actually I wrote the first, uh, business plan for what became Handsome Holidays. And then also another quite, um, pivotal. That's the dog. Sorry. Um, pivotal class that I. Abradoodle. Yeah. Um, chewing on a boat, um, was called Caring, uh, for Creation. And so that helped sort of shape a lot of what we did around understanding our relationship with creation, with God's creation, framing our trips so that they are, uh, stewarding and being Being sustainable, um, as well. So. So, yeah, I. I did that year there, and then I spent the next couple of years traveling the world building relationships with different travel partners before launching in. In 2006. And it's been a wild ride since then.

Jason Tifford: M. So did you feel. Did you feel called to create this business, would you say?

Chris: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Uh, yes. And that was really affirmed by some, uh, prophetic words that were spoken over me, particularly at that time when I was in Vancouver as well. Um, I said elders in the church that I was attending. And that was great affirmation of the sense that I had of calling. Yes.

Jason Tifford: Mm. So did you have, like, walk us through that. Did you have, like, this idea and then those prophetic words were spoken to and now it was confirmed for you, or what did that look like?

Chris: Yeah, well, I did, but it wasn't like anyone else really knew about that idea. And certainly not the, um, person, the elder who had the prophetic word. Um, it was. I can't remember his exact words now. It was something along the lines of, you know, he said, I have a word for someone from New Zealand, and there weren't too many of them in the church. And then when he, you know, I sort of. I think I was the only person who put up their hand. And so then he said, and this is where I'm, um, a little bit hazy. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something along the lines of, you know, I believe that God is telling me that, uh, you are, uh, going to impact the world through, uh, a enterprise that you're cogitating about starting up. And so that really sort of nailed it for me.

Jason Tifford: Well, uh, so were you kind of on the fence before? And then when that happened, you're like, this is it.

Chris: I was, yeah. I mean, I was probably, you know, somewhat over the fence, you know, but I was. There were some other options that I was evaluating at the time. Yeah, um, that weren't. That didn't fit that description. They were more, um. Uh, you know, just roles that I was going to be employed into. And so this was, uh, the only thing that was fresh. And, um, certainly it spoke to, um, even, you know, going back to that time in South Africa, I had a sense of calling even back then, you know, the previous year. And it just spoke to me around the Beatitudes as well, about, um, blessed are the poor and so much that can be. Actually, that is true. And that this a lot. Um, the exchange that can happen on a trip is. It is an exchange and it's a two way um, mutual enrichment that I think sort of hits at the truths of the Beatitudes. And certainly one thing that a key thing that I take away and so pleased that I have taken it away at a relatively early age is around contentment and not um, desperately chasing the next shiny glossy thing or um, envy of what the neighbor has. And I think that um, it certainly comes from the interaction I've had with people who have nothing materially but are uh, emotionally and spiritually rich and content. And I attribute that to um, to the Gospel message as well.

Jason Tifford: Mhm. So what's your testimony?

Chris: My personal testimony?

Jason Tifford: Yeah. If you don't mind sharing.

Chris: Yeah, no, no, sure. It's um. Well, I was raised in a Christian family. However my parents became Christian not to like they weren't raised in Christian families. Um, so they were, they became Christians sort of two or three years before I was born. And um, and so they uh. But as I say, raised in a, in a Christian family, um, in a uh. Yeah. So raised with a knowledge of God, um, from, from a young age and certainly a desire to, to, to, to go deeper in that knowledge. Um, and however, you know, there's, there, there's sort of head knowledge and then there's heart knowledge. And for me the, there's been pretty much all my life a head knowledge. But uh, my, my heart knowledge which really I think completes the journey or. No, that's, it's never completed but uh, um, rounds out that circle, you know, happened for me, um, in my teenage years really. And actually you know, having a personal encounter with Jesus and that's stuck with me. And I am, you know, thrilled to be able to uh, walk with him every day and now have the opportunity to raise my own children in that path.

Jason Tifford: Well, thank you for sharing. Did you. Sorry, go ahead.

Chris: No, always a pleasure.

Jason Tifford: Oh yeah. Did you feel like that was when you got saved?

Chris: Yeah, yeah. Yes. Um, but like I'm of the view that it's uh, why I say I didn't complete the journey because uh, it's an ongoing thing in terms of, for me, me, um, uh, being filled with the Spirit is something that we can continually seek and seek to be filled afresh every day.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. Yeah. So let's go back to hands up too. So once these prophetic words were spoken to you, what was the next step? What was the next step for you after that?

Chris: Yeah, well, I completed my studies there in 2003 and then my immediate um, uh, thinking was there was someone I was studying with who was South African. And so I shared the idea with him and he loved it as well. And. And so we were actually, um, about to go into this together and really launching with just South Africa, ah, as our one destination. And then I got some advice from a family, uh, friend who had been working in the travel industry for a long time. And he recommended that in order to appear to a broad audience as credible, we should have a greater selection of destinations on offer. And so I ended up taking that advice and spending the next two years traveling the world and building relationships with different communities. And. And that. That was an incredible experience. Um, so we ended up, when we launched in 2006, we had, uh, I think 22 destinations, uh, from mostly in Asia, Africa, Latin America, but we had Fiji and we also had Ukraine, um, as well, which is, you know, obviously quite timely, um, given. Given current events. Um, yeah. And that was a wonderful two years. And then I had the UK in mind and young professionals in mind as our, uh, target geographic market and then demographic market, being young professionals. And so I moved back to the UK, back to London in 2006, and launched up there. And however, uh, really from the right. Right from launch, we were getting bookings mostly out of the US and then a good number from families. And families weren't on my radar at all when I was setting it up. It really. It just didn't occur to me that families would want to be traveling with us. So I'd ask them, you know, why are you booking with us? And they'd say things like, well, we. Our, uh, children come from pretty privileged backgrounds, and we're really keen for them to have this experience so they can appreciate how fortunate they are. Or they'd say, um, you know, we're looking for a great family bonding experience. And this hits the spot for us. And that really did resonate with me, and even more so now that I do have children of my own. And so within a fairly short order, we started to focus, uh, primarily, I mean, not. Not exclusively, but certainly primarily in terms of our messaging towards to families. And so that has continued through to today, um, with. I would say, yeah, well, certainly that about 90% of our clients are American. And these days it's probably about 90% are families. Um, but as I said, not to exclude others. We certainly do get inquiries from solo travelers and from couples or groups of friends, um, as well. And then. And more recently, I've launched a second, uh, brand, and that's called Impact Destinations. And the idea behind that is that, uh, a, uh, traveler's philanthropic donation will enable the experts to do what they do best and also unlock a unique experience for the traveler. So for example, uh, coming back to South Africa on a safari day there, guests can witness a rhino relocation from a reserve that's facing uh, a lot of poaching of rhinos relocated to a much better protected reserve in Botswana. So this is where the guests actually get to go in the helicopter with the veterinarian while he is darting the rhino and then land and spend some time with a sedated rhino before seeing it getting loaded into the container and flown off to Botswana. So this is really about being able to say, uh, I saved the life of a rhino whilst on safari and leaving a legacy that way.

Jason Tifford: So right away it seems like there was, sorry, the train. Right. Right away it seems like there was this. Uh. Yeah, it started to. From like a worldly perspective, it was succeeding right away. What would you say were, were there like initial challenges that, that came up after that?

Chris: Yeah, well, certainly a ongoing challenge is awareness. Um, and what I mean by that is awareness that is even possible to travel in luxury and also to make a difference and give back. Um, so that's our ongoing challenge, um, is to get the message out there that yes, it is actually possible to do that. Um, but yes, some other challenges. Uh, I know one thing that springs to mind from our early days was around when we again were first launching. We had um, fixed date departures for all of our trips and that required them to be filled in order for them to go ahead or not actually filled, but minimum numbers which would tend to be around um, six people and that. But I think in sort of contrast to the advice that we were given about um, having a lot of destinations, the, the downside to doing that is that you can um, essentially have too much choice. And, and so particularly when you're just starting out, um, trying to, to fill these, you get say, you know, two people booking one trip, um, and then uh, two people booking another trip to completely different destinations or a family of say four. But um, still that not hitting the minimum numbers that are required, um, meant that uh, some trips weren't going ahead. And so we had to uh, really well. We decided to shift fairly quickly to the model of um, tailor making each trip so there was no minimum numbers. And we were able then to set the trip date according to what the clients wanted to do. And so that was one challenge that we faced which uh, we overcame that way. Um, what are the challenges? Uh, well, things like uh, you might remember that Volcano, uh, that erupted in Iceland, um, in our, uh, you know, I can't remember what year now. Maybe 2010, roughly somewhere around there. And, and we had clients that were affected by that, um, either couldn't go to their, uh, destination or couldn't leave their destination. Um, so. So that was, you know, certainly brought about a raft of. Of challenge, logistical challenges of. Of caring for our clients, particularly those ones that were in the destinations and. And couldn't get back. Um, uh, and then launching, as I say, we launched in 2006 and 2008 to 2010 was essentially the global financial crisis. So turmoil around the world. That was a rocky period, but nothing compared to Covid, um, which was an enormous challenge for us. Um, I, you know, decimated us. You know, no one could travel for. For a couple of years, um, that massively impacted us as a business.

Jason Tifford: Was there ever a time in that period where you started to doubt that this is what you were still supposed to do?

Chris: No. No, I don't. No, I don't think so. And I think having had that sense of calling, um, is. Is certainly what, you know, got me through and continues to get me through.

Jason Tifford: Wow. So what is it. What is it that you look for when you're bringing people onto the team?

Chris: So, you know, alignment of values is. Is key. And that, um, you know, comes. Comes into, uh, having, um, similar vision and faith, um, is important for bringing people onto the team. And that overlaid with, uh, uh, a love for travel and a love for being the light on the hill, um, is fundamentally what I look for.

Jason Tifford: That's interesting. Do you. Have you found, one, have you found that it's hard to find those people? And then two, my second question would be, I guess, how do you measure. How do you measure somebody's faith? Like, do you just take their word, okay. Or what does that look like to you?

Chris: Yeah, yeah. It's a great question. Um, more or less, it's. It's a sense thing, um, in terms of taking their word, but then also just seeing if the. The word. Just saying it. But in the. In the course of the. Of the. The conversation and interview, if there's. I'm reminded of, uh, this is a little bit. A little bit strange, but, um. Uh, there was that TV show, the West Wing, and there was an episode where the president was trying to ascertain if someone was legit. And it was something about if they could pronounce, basically. I think it was like he was drawing on a story from the Old Testament where I think if you could Say the word Mephibosith or. I probably even said it wrong there then, um, you were a true Israelite light. Um, and so he was looking for pointers of uh, markers to, in the course of that conversation to identify someone's um, faith. And so it's really just sort of just trying to be alert to markers that yes, um, they might say they're a believer or whatever. But um, it's looking for those markers to confirm that. And yeah, just sort of, it's being sensitive in the course of the, of the conversations as well. All.

Jason Tifford: Uh. Right. This may be a tough, quite tough question, but. Yeah. What would you say to somebody who's like, who's like, why do you only hire people of the same faith as you? That's, that's wrong. What do you, what do you say to that? I'm sure you, you've had that question before.

Chris: Mhm. Yeah, well, partly it's been uh, a case where in the past sometimes we haven't um, been so rigid with that and that has led to issues further down the track. And so it's been a case of um, really one being true to our values but wanting to um, ensure that for our team, uh, harmony. And then also in terms of having a more confidence that the dynamics are going to be strong and that the customer experience is going to be um, as we want it to be. That we've learned over the years that this is, it's an important thing for us to hold firm to now.

Jason Tifford: Yeah, interesting. That's so fascinating. And I can see how that's like the dynamics play into that. For instance, like the world might say one thing, but uh, to carry out what you are called to do might ask you to do something different.

Chris: Yeah, exactly, Jason.

Jason Tifford: Yeah.

Chris: Mhm.

Jason Tifford: All right, let's see, uh, what led you to study theology? Because this was before. Because that was before you. That's before you started the business, right?

Chris: Before I started it, yeah.

Jason Tifford: Okay.

Chris: Yeah, yeah, really as a. I mean I basically just wanted to go deeper, um, in relationship with God in a nutshell. And that, uh, combined with feeling like I'd been working for six years at that point and seventh year, that's obviously a biblical thing, um, in terms of resting the land. Um, so I was taking it as a sabbatical year, um, and so it made sense in that sabbatical year to do some study and why not, um, align it with wanting to go deeper with God?

Jason Tifford: Was that the case? Was that the outcome?

Chris: Yeah, it was, it was, um, no question. I, uh, did what's the word? Get a bit surprised initially at the, the, the workload. Um, but uh, and uh, it, the, the study itself, um, was. You could sort of call it neutral. Where I felt I, um, really benefited from it was in the interaction with my, with my peers and, and just having that opportunity to just, you know, take a year out with other believers, um, and then also with. What's the word? So mentoring relationships and having a spiritual director during that year as well. Um, so in one sense it was the study which was the vehicle to enable me to actually get that interaction and an opportunity to um, have great conversations with people who are on a similar journey.

Jason Tifford: So was it like a theology degree or was this at seminary or what was it?

Chris: Yeah, well it was a, um, diploma in Christian studies and it was a graduate diploma. So it was. Yeah, ah, the theology school. Although, um, there were other people doing master's programs which would lead on to um, uh, ordination. But it was cross section really. Um, certainly that wasn't the only pathway, clearly because I wasn't on it.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. So this was for them to become priests?

Chris: Yeah, for some, yeah.

Jason Tifford: Okay, so I'm curious too. So, uh, would you consider yourself to be Catholic or Orthodox or.

Chris: No, no, Um, I am. I don't really go in for labels that much at all. Um, but if anything, I mean, like put it this way, I attend, um, an Anglican, so I think that's Episcopalian, uh, church, uh, here. And um, for me, if we are putting labels, sort of a low church, a sort of a spirit led Anglican church. Um, that's how I'd describe it.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. Cool. Um, yeah, let's see. So in terms of being all over the place, have you raised your kids in New Zealand or did you have kids when you were all over?

Chris: Yeah, they were born in London, England and then, uh, so they. Well, at the ages of basically three and five we moved back. Well, I say back. I moved back to New Zealand. They moved to New Zealand for the first time and as did my wife as well, she's actually French, so it was the first time for her living here.

Jason Tifford: So what is it? Was it. How do you balance having. How do you balance a marriage and your kids and also a, uh, calling? M.

Chris: Well, you know, I think all those things are callings. So they're interlinked. Um, and I think that the key word really is balance. And so it's a case of um, having or making the time for all of those three areas of life and having God weave through all those aspects, all those, uh, well, three things. That sounds very abstract. Um, but even three callings. I think that's a nice way to put it.

Jason Tifford: So what does that look practically?

Chris: Well, it looks practically like ensuring that I do make the time for, um, both, uh, my children and my wife and I mean, for example, with my kids we have something we call special time, which is, uh, a time each day carved out, um, for one on one time really doing whatever, um, they want. I, um, don't get to choose it. They choose it. And then, um, also setting aside time such as date nights and just one on one time with my wife as well.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. That's beautiful. What do your kids usually choose to do with you one on one time?

Chris: To an extent. It depends on the weather. It could be. We, uh, one quite popular thing, but we haven't done it for a little while now because it's just coming out of winter here. It's kind of like basketball on a trampoline. We've got a hoop on our. On our trampoline and yeah, just play one on one, uh, there. Or kicking the football. Although more recently it's been gaming focused. Um, so particularly on the Nintendo Wii or Xbox, um, FIFA, um, are also popular things in the winter.

Jason Tifford: So how do you balance then when you carve out time for your family, your kids and your wife? Uh, do you ever feel like, oh man, I'm slipping behind in what I'm doing for work, per se?

Chris: Um, yeah, it can happen. Yeah. Um, and that just comes back to thinking about, you know, what are my priorities and who are my priorities and what is most important in life. And so, you know, things can slip sometimes. Yeah.

Jason Tifford: So what does that correction look like for you? Uh, or what has it looked like?

Chris: Well, depending if it's, say something around client focused, then it looks like, um, going to bed later, um, and getting the job done. But if it's something that's, I don't know, you know, not mission critical, then sometimes they just. They just go by the wayside.

Jason Tifford: It sounds like from what you're saying, it sounds like your priorities are very clear and hierarchy.

Chris: They, uh, are. They, uh, are. Yes.

Jason Tifford: What advice would you have to somebody who's. Yeah. What advice would you have to somebody who is trying to balance calling with building a family and. Yeah. Having a new and a young family.

Chris: Um, yeah. Another excellent question, Jason. I would repeat what I said, that I really believe that, um, raising a family is a calling as well. And so not to lose sight of that and also, you know, to say that, um, you know, I Guess I don't necessarily want to impose

Jason Tifford: rigid, um,

Chris: directions on people, and I think everyone's individual circumstances can be different. But, um, I personally feel like, um, the responsibility and calling around, raising a family is something that is intensely precious to God. And so whilst you may also be called into, um, some type of work, that. That would be still secondary to your. To that calling around. Around family. That's my personal view.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. And what do you think about. Yeah. Do you think that people can have family and kids and a marriage, but feel called to put their professional calling first?

Chris: Personally, I don't think so, no. Um, but, you know, I don't want to be prescriptive about that.

Jason Tifford: Yeah, I don't know. I haven't really even thought about that until now. Uh, but because we are called to rest, you know, and we are called to. I mean, I also think that having balance with your family and raising your children is important. Yeah. I don't know. I don't. I don't have kids, and I. I'm not. Yeah. And I'm not yet married, so I. I don't know. I don't. Yeah, I don't. I don't know, per se. I don't know how I would handle that. But I also. I also think that in our society, especially in the West, I think people have a tendency to idolize their careers. But also. But also, even if they do feel called to do something, I think they can still. I don't know if I'd call that idolizing, but they'd still put that before their family.

Chris: Sure. Yeah. I think it's a trap, um, that's easily walked into.

Jason Tifford: M. Was this always. Did you always think this way about family and your children as a calling?

Chris: Um, probably not. Not until I had them. Huh.

Jason Tifford: Was it. Was it, like, right away where it switched, or was it. Was it okay, now that I'm having kids and I'm working and I'm balancing now, it's like, oh, I need to change my priorities.

Chris: I, uh, think right away. Um, you know, it's from the. The moment, you know, from there being in the delivery room and actually holding a firstborn right to my chest to, um, bond with him in that way. Um, it was very powerful for me. Um, like, yes, this is my priorities now.

Jason Tifford: So what do you think is going to be next for you? And not long term, but, like, just next step.

Chris: Right. Uh, well, we sort of are looking to sort of incrementally increase the number of destinations that we do offer, um, to try and keep things Fresh. Um, so I've got a uh, trip planned to go to Italy to see what we can get started there. Um, and, and then also other destinations in the pipeline are uh, Roatan in Honduras and Puerto Rico and Zimbabwe. Um, so yeah, it's getting out to these destinations and uh, yeah, checking them out and seeing if they're viable and if so, yeah, going live with them.

Jason Tifford: As your work has progressed, have you noticed that the demographic of people that take you guys up on these trips, has that changed or has that stayed primarily the same?

Chris: Yeah, ah, it's really stayed pretty stable, um, in the family market, um, with. I'd say that one sort of key variant would be that there's been an increasing number of sort of intergenerational trips where families are um, traveling with your grandparents as well, or sometimes grandparents traveling with their grandkids but without the middleman, so to speak. Um, as well. So yeah, that has been increasing.

Jason Tifford: Why do you think that is?

Chris: Mhm. I think it's probably something to do with uh, people living longer and able to um, be active longer as well. And so there's a sort of increasing, uh, what's the word? Um, I guess age range where a trip can still appeal to a long age range from grandchildren to grandparents. And I'd like to think as well a increasing desire on the part of, I assume this is true of my own family, um, on the part of grandparents to connect um, more deeply with their grandchildren.

Jason Tifford: That's beautiful. Yeah. Switching uh, gears a little bit. How do you, how do you, yeah, coming back to like your relationship with your kids. How do you instill or yeah, how do you know, navigate raising your children within the faith and handling those conversations.

Chris: Yeah, well, I mean, a couple of things spring to mind. One, um, we have our dining room table where that's ah, open space to ask any questions, um, there's no criticism, no uh, retribution, uh, open table, um, for anything. And so that's an opportunity for faith questions, but not only faith questions for anything, you know, just growing up questions to be asked. Um, and then for me it's been a case of again, not wanting to be prescriptive at all, um, but keeping the kids free to make their own faith journeys and not um, impose anything on them and so being available for them, but at the same time not um, saying you have to think this way or you have to believe, but let them find their faith, um, to be ultimately, I believe, a more deeply, uh, rooted one.

Jason Tifford: Wow. Yeah, that would make sense because then it's like it's a choice. It's like God doesn't. God isn't forcing us to believe in him.

Chris: That's um.

Jason Tifford: Right.

Chris: Yeah.

Jason Tifford: So then in terms of like, bringing them to. Like do you bring them to church with you or is that a choice that they have

Chris: these days? A choice. Yep.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. Uh, how old are your kids?

Chris: 12 and 14.

Jason Tifford: Okay. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. This is all new for me. I grew up in a Jewish family and I got baptized last year. And uh. Have. Yeah. And have never really had those faith conversations with family. And even though we'd celebrate holidays. Right. We'd celebrate Passover, celebrate Rosh Hashanah, we never really. I didn't have a. Like a relationship with God. M. And it wasn't something that was encouraged or discouraged. So like, I just grew up and I was like, oh, this isn't. It's just not even a thought. And so, yeah, all that to say it's. Now that I'm. Now that I'm thinking about. Well, now that I'm getting married soon and thinking about having kids soon, I'm thinking about, okay, how to. How do I do this? So what, Uh, I guess you already kind of hit the nail on the head with that. But would you have any other advice for somebody who's in my position or a similar position?

Chris: Yeah, well, I think. Well, yeah, if as you're asking for advice, it'll be around.

Jason Tifford: You have to be prescriptive.

Chris: Yeah, yeah, it'll be around something like, um, if you. As true as you can be to your own calling in terms of being a father, um, and enabling exploration of faith. For me it's also, I guess,

Jason Tifford: you

Chris: know, modeling Jesus as much as you can. Obviously no one's gonna do that even remotely perfectly m. Doing that, then giving them over to God. Um, I'm reminded for me an incredibly always emotional story is that of the prodigal son. And um, I was talking with a friend, um, at church quite recently whose daughter, um, currently, uh, um. Isn't obviously in relationship with God. Um, and she was saying that they give it over to God and uh.

Jason Tifford: Um,

Chris: just believing that one day, um, so to speak, that the prodigal, so to speak, will return. Um, and for me it's. Yeah, it's such a beautiful story on many levels. Um, but you know, one aspect of it is, and that is sometimes missed is uh. It speaks about, um, that it's also the story of the running father. Um, and so when he saw his son afar off, um, he ran to, ah, a son. And that was, uh. Going against all the norms of an elder, of a Jewish elder who wouldn't be so undignified as to run. Um, but he didn't mind. He just saw a son in the distance. It was complete forgiveness and acceptance. And so obviously that's modeling. God is the model. God the Father is the model there. Um, but to an extent we can, um, model it ourselves. And you get that impression that he was there every day waiting. Um, and it's a really powerful one for me.

Jason Tifford: Then how do you handle discipline?

Chris: Gosh. Um, with boundaries being clear on boundaries and on what the consequences are if the boundaries are, uh, uh, breached and really doing that as much as possible in collaboration with the kids, um, so that there is acceptance for what the consequences should be. Um, once you get that buy in, it makes the, um. Well, I think it makes the breach less, but also the acceptance of the consequences greater.

Jason Tifford: M. Because they have. Because they've had a say in it.

Chris: Exactly, yeah.

Jason Tifford: So does that. So what does that look like then? Or what does that look like?

Chris: Um, well, it can look like, you know, uh, if, for instance, there's um, too much, or someone, uh, using a screen in their bedroom, um, agreeing what that consequence should be. Um, so asking we've set out the framework as to why that's not a good thing. Um, so get that buy in and then just ask what do you think, um, should be the consequence if you do do this? And more often than not they really surprise you with actually quite a reasonable consequence. And so it could be I should lose access for a day, let's say that's what set. And so, um, if me and my wife agree that that is a suitable, um, consequence, then the boundary is clear, the consequences are clear, and then it's a smoother road to enforcing it.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. So then in terms of if there's something that they. That hasn't been discussed, is that. Do you find that those are typically harder, harder ones to enforce then?

Chris: Yeah, good question. Um, well, yes, it would be harder. But then also we know we do have, um, we've gone through, uh, what our family values are, and so that's up on the fridge. And so we look to that as our guide as well. And so if something that hasn't been formally discussed, we say, is it in line with our values? And then if it's not, then yeah, it's probably a bit harder to enforce. But there's still the buy in of the. Of what, um, the values are. And then understanding that doing something that's not in line with Those values should have a consequence.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. Wow. It seems like you're a great dad.

Chris: Oh, again, on a journey,

Jason Tifford: what does it look like to uh. I've seen like a lot of people who are. Yeah, like a lot of pastors mentioned it. It's like your wife and then your kids. How do you balance that? What does that look like for you?

Chris: Yeah, I think that should be the case as well. Um, and yeah, in terms of balancing it, it involves daily, um, check ins with my wife and then carving out those, as I mentioned, the date nights as well, um, to make that connection a priority.

Jason Tifford: That's good. That's good. Wow. All right, well, that's all my, that's all my questions. Is there anything, Is there anything else you wanted to touch on about Hands up maybe where people can, where they can find it? Um, I know you were, you had a few other, um, it seemed like a few other organizations that were adjacent to Hands up to. For maybe students. Was that.

Chris: Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Yeah. So there is Hands Up Holidays, which is our, um, particularly family facing, um, website. But then there's Hands Up School trips, which is for, uh, student groups. And then there's also that one I mentioned, impactdestinations.com.

Jason Tifford: got it. Cool. And that's just, uh, handsupholidays.com and it is.

Chris: And hands upschooltrips.com. yeah.

Jason Tifford: Do you have any other, any other questions for me or anything?

Chris: Um, I'm a treat. How did you. What was your process of going from Judaism into becoming baptized?

Jason Tifford: Yeah, I, uh. Yeah, so after. While I was a senior in college, my dad was diagnosed with terminal, uh, esophageal cancer and he ended up passing away. And in that, um, in that journey and coming out of that, I was really looking for just a way to live life and to find purpose and meaning in all that grief. Because I just hadn't. I wasn't really somebody who handled emotions well prior to that. And I was searching for the truth. And so I. Part of that was starting, um, I got really into like self help and was reading a bunch of different books. And then I dabbled in psychedelics and did that a few times. And then I started this master's program, m, which I'm actually finishing up now. It was a three year part time program in uh, consciousness studies, transpersonal psychology and spirituality. And a part of that program was looking at different spiritual traditions through the lens of Western psychology. And in that I was reading Buddhist texts and I was reading Hindu texts. And for some reason like this like, Jesus kept coming up. And I was like, why? Like why is that? Why is Jesus. Why does Jesus keep coming up? And at the very least I was like, all right, this Jesus guy must have some good teachings at the least, if I'm being intellectually honest. Right. I can't. If there's a common denominator, there must be something there. And so I was open to just checking, checking that out. And this was right at the time where my fiance and I, we started dating. And I, for like a lot of the Christian couples that I knew, they. It seemed like they had very healthy relationships. And that seemed like I was seeing the fruit of that and I wanted that for, for myself. So I was very open to going to church. And a. Another couple, this was down in Austin, invited us to church and we went. It was a non denominational church and was going for a year, but just going as a way to learn the teachings. And I was sitting there on Good Friday service. Um, this was over a year and a half ago now. And they're talking about the, a crucifixion. And they read the part about the Roman centurion who's there. And after Jesus is crucified, the Roman centurion says, truly that is the Son of God. And there was something in me that just shifted where I saw the Roman centurion. I was like, wow, this guy who is, who is not of the same faith, not of the same ethnicity, is able to see Jesus as the Son of man. And here I am, a Jew of the same heritage, and I'm denying him as my Lord and Savior. And that's when I got saved and then got baptized and. Yeah, yeah, so it's uh, yeah, it's uh. For me, when I got, when I got baptized, I got baptized last November. And since then it's just been thing after thing in terms of, uh, just big obstacles to overcome, I would say. Obstacles of, of uh. The enemy, I think. The enemy. But also being called to, to really change the way that I was living my life in a lot of uncomfortable ways and living, of living being like a person of the world and in college, like being in a fraternity and going out a lot and drinking a lot and partying and all and all this and that I didn't really have any sort of guardrails of like, what was right and wrong and all that to say. There's been a lot of like, growing pains this past year. And I think, uh, it's just the beginning, honestly. But at the same time it's this is like. I found what I was looking for when I went on that initial search after my dad died of looking for meaning and purpose. And I didn't even. I mean, I looked, but he found me.

Chris: Yeah. Right.

Jason Tifford: And here we are.

Chris: Extraordinary.

Jason Tifford: Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, yeah. Thank you so much for. For coming on. I, uh. I really appreciated learning from you. One as I think one, most importantly as a father, as a husband, but also just in terms of, uh. Just in terms of the boldness in changing your. Your career calling and. Or not you changing your career calling, but changing your career as a consequence of your call. So, uh, yeah, thank you for coming on.

Chris: It's absolute pleasure, Jason. Thank you so much.