You Can Believe in Jesus and Still Not Follow Him

All right, Jeff, welcome to the podcast. Would you mind just sharing your testimony with the audience? Yeah, sure. I'm almost 50 years old, and I was born and raised in a Christian family. My dad got saved. He has kind of a crazy story, but he kind of met the Lord through a miraculous experience he had in the Vietnam War. And. And he and my mom raised me and my sisters to know the Lord. And I always had an understanding of who God was and what his word was. But there's a couple times throughout my young life when I was 11 and then again when I was 17, where I think God really impacted my heart in a variety of different ways. But I made a recommitment when I was 11. I just told God up when I was up at summer camp that wherever he wanted me to go, whatever he wanted me to do, I wanted to be that person. And I always remember making that promise or, you know, kind of making that commitment to him that my life was not my own. You know, I grew up, I had a great childhood. I loved playing sports. I grew up in, like, a house church of like 25 people. So my experience of Christianity and how it worked itself out was always in a community of people who love the Lord and were really sharing life with each other and were real and honest. So, you know, as I got older and as I got into high school and stuff, you know, I was convicted by. I didn't do anything crazy. I was, I think, a relatively a good kid and tried to do the right thing. But I was living like two different lives in a lot of ways. I had one set of friends over here and it was one way with them. And then I had my, like, family and my church friends and my life over here as a Christian. But there was a definite divide between those two things. And I went, a couple of the men in my little church growing up went to a Promise Keepers event in the early 90s, which was like this revival amongst men to be the spiritual leaders in their families and to live up to the calling, just to be a godly man and to be a man of integrity. And that was really impactful for me when I went to that thing. And it's stuff I knew, but I had never really been called to account for, I guess you would say, and you know, as a 17 year old, you're wondering what God has for you in life. And I remember just sort of the transformation that God began to do in my life at that moment was simply it didn't really matter what I was going to do. Or where I would go. It was, it mattered who I was. You know, my heart and my mind belonged to him and he wanted me to be a man of integrity no matter what it was that I was going to do. And I remember that shift of just like, what should I be doing? Or how do I make a difference or what does God have for me? Or whatever, to knowing exactly what that was. It was who I was as a person and how I would treat people and how I would put God first in my life was what he cared about. The other stuff was sort of like, you'll figure that out. I'll lead you, I'll guide you, I'll provide for you, be my man, you know what I mean? And that changed a lot of things in my life because I had some friends who knew me in high school and they thought I was fun to be around or whatever. But I remember my last year and my senior year of high school, it was like, dude, you're different, you know, like, what's going on with you? Or like, why, why are you? Whatever. And I remember really, I didn't like share anything with him other than to say, you know, I just, I just want to put God first in my life. And I went to a Christian college. I went to Westmont College in Santa Barbara and met, we started dating the woman who would become my wife. We dated all four years of college essentially, and then got married like six months after we graduated. And I had worked at a summer camp for most of the years in college, Christian summer camp. And even though I was majoring in business and economics, I felt like, man, if I could do this for a living, if I could get paid to hang out with kids and show them the love of Jesus, that's what I want to do. So I ended up kind of redirecting my, my efforts into going into ministry, even though I didn't really have a picture of what it looked like to be in youth ministry, because I didn't have a church with a youth ministry. I had a church that was just a little family that sat in a circle and prayed and talked together. So anyway, all this is, I spent 17 years at a church here in San Diego as a youth pastor and an associate pastor. And my wife and I have four sons and, and really my goal, I always thought, I don't know what's next, you know, I'm not going to do this forever. But I don't know what's next. And it turned into 17 years of being in full time ministry, of just saying I want to be faithful to the Lord. I want to love people, I want to build community and you know, my life. Verse I would say is 1st Thessalonians 2, 8, which nobody knows, but the verse is, we loved you so much that we desire to share not only the gospel of God with you, but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us. And I've always felt just a draw and a passion for people following the Lord together and being really wanting to share in other people's lives and not just have it be something we do as part of our faith or as some sort of like religious activity that we get together a certain number of times, but to really be involved and tethered together with other people who can help you float when you're sinking and that you can be there for them and do all the one anothers of scripture and stuff like that. I've gone through periods of doubt, I've gone through periods of confusion or wondering. But ultimately I love the Lord. I stand on his word. I love the opportunity to just walk alongside people and whatever they're dealing with. We're all a mess and, but we're all at the same time, we're all perfect in Christ. So yeah, that's kind of, I mean essentially my testimony is anything crazy other than what I would say I used to tell people is God is faithful and he's been faithful to me. And you know, there's a story in the gospels where Jesus talks the parable where he talks about, you know, to whom much is given, much is expected. And I've always felt God has blessed me. And I was like, what is it? You know, what am I supposed to like, I just say thank you or like what do I do with, with, with the blessings that God gives me. And I think what he has impressed upon me is just, just, just to be faithful. What he's given me to pour that out on other people as much as I possibly can and not just build my own life and my own kingdom, you know. So it's been a journey. The last 10 years of my life I have not been in full time ministry. I've been. We went through kind of a real, a real, I would say we went through the fire in our marriage about 10 years ago. Went through a really painful and rough experience that led me to leave, leave. Being fully involved at the church simply because I felt like ministry might have contributed to my schedule and the time and the distance that my wife and I had experienced. And praise God, he's faithful we're still married, we're doing really well, 27 years next week. And what I have transitioned to is trying to do the ministry that God has put on my heart, trying to do the discipleship that God has put on my heart to do. But it has to be in my own time. So I'm finally using my business degree, I'm running my family business that my dad built as property management. I work part time at my kids school and all in order to be able to have the financial ability to provide for my family, but also the flexibility to do the ministry things that God has called me to do. And God has put opportunities, he's put my way. So that's where crosstalk, which is a Friday morning Bible study of a bunch of gentlemen who some of them have been meeting since the early 80s together to study the word of God. I've been had the real privilege of serving as the chaplain for the San Diego Padres baseball team since 2012, which is basically youth ministry on steroids, literally. And then I have also my dad and I met a man from Uganda in 2013 and then that turned into visit, a visit in 2015, which turned into us helping him build a school which, which now I'm the international director for our NGO that runs a school of about 1200 kids in rural Uganda. So I do those things in my own time. I don't get paid to do the ministry part, but God has allowed me to have the ability to have the time to do it. And it's, it's a. Yeah, I wouldn't trade it in for the world. Nobody, nobody would trade in getting to do what they would choose to do anyway. So it's a real blessing. So yeah, I mean that's kind of a little bit of my life story. Less of my testimony I guess. But you know, my, yeah, I mean my testimony simply is even when we are faithless, he is faithful. That's the God I have experienced on every single level that not only in my own shortcomings and sin or in the shortcomings and disappointments that other people that you see in your own life, that other people demonstrate, that hurts when you, when it hurts you and when it hits you and you feel oftentimes betrayed maybe, or you feel let down, disappointed that God is the same and he's loving. Our culture shifts, our friendship shift as we age. A lot of the people we used to know that maybe they're different relationships in our life. You know, we go through seasons but, but our season with God never changes. And yeah, Praise the Lord for that. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. What, what does it look like to lean on God in those challenging seasons? For instance, like when you said like you're going through the fire. What does it look like to lean on God in. In. Well, I'm sure anybody, you know, who listens to this could relate in their own way to whatever that. Whatever those firestorms are, you know, whatever those moments of difficulty or tragedy or testing are in your life, they're usually unexpected. Maybe not in the fact that you have a difficulty, but. But the timing, it always sneaks up on you. And I remember still very vividly the day that my life changed back in 2015. And it was a recognition that some people that I loved and cared deeply about and who I was very close to, friends and had not been truthful with me. And it was really painful. And then it's like you only have the Lord to go to. Actually at that point, I had a year and three month old son and he was my best friend for a year, he and the Lord. Because I could pray and I could talk to God when we were together late at night and I was taking care of him on a 2am shift or whatever. You know, when you feel like the Lord is the only one who knows or the Lord is the only one who understands, It's clarifying, I guess, is the right word. It helps you understand what's real and what's true and what's honest and what's. And also that he's sufficient, you know, he is sufficient for you. So for me, leaning on him in those difficult moments or those difficult seasons, it's it. The reason most people would probably say when they go through difficult things that test their faith and maybe strengthen their faith on the other side, that they wouldn't trade those things in is because when you get to experience the Lord in a very personal and quiet and sensitive way, just that he's with you when His Word speaks to you. Maybe there's verses or passages you've read a hundred times in your life, but all of a sudden, Psalm 34:18, the Lord is close to those who are brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. That's a beautiful verse. And you like to send that out on cards and prayer requests for people. But when you're the one that's brokenhearted and when your spirit is crushed, yeah. To know that that's a promise for you, it's a big deal. So you claim that stuff and you begin to feel it in a different way. So for me, it just looks like rather than do my daily devotion or try to find time for God, it's like I have to breathe, I have to eat, I have to drink. And what that is is me going to him to breathe and to eat from His Word and to drink of his goodness, of His Holy Spirit. And you just go to him like you're on life support. And most of our life, it's kind of like we know we need to have God as part of it. But when you're struggling and when you're hurting and when you don't know where else to go, he really does become your life. For me, the story in Daniel chapter three of the guy, three guys in the fiery furnace and the idol and all that stuff has always been, is where I was in scripture when my life was turned upside down. I had just preached a passage on Daniel 3. And all these lessons that I had thought I was learning in order to teach other people, all of a sudden were the things that I was. The class I was taking. You know, it was the course that I was in. And I remember there's a scene in that story, if anybody wants to look up Daniel chapter three. I think it's verses 16, 18, where they get put for the king because they didn't bow down to his idol. And he says, I'm going to give you a second chance, you know, to do what I want you to do. And yet they knew what the Lord wanted from them, which was to honor God and, you know, the commandment, he shall have no other God but, you know, before me should not make any image or idol and bow down to it. They knew what God wanted from them, and they knew what this man wanted from them. And they were willing to do what God wanted them to do no matter what it cost them. And in many ways, they're way more secure in that decision than Nebuchadnezzar is. Nebuchadnezzar is the one who's insecure. He's the one searching for power. He's the one paranoid that he wants to control everyone's life, including their religious life. And. And how dare there be anybody who would defy me. And yet they say, you know, the God that we serve can save us from this, from this furnace, from this fire. And that was me. God can save me from this pain or from the difficulties in my marriage. I don't know if we're going to make it. I don't know how we're going to survive this. God can save me from that he has the ability to heal and to do miraculous things. But even if he does not, they say, we're not bowing down to you. And that was me. Then it was like, I want God to save my marriage. But my number one goal was not to save my marriage. My number one goal was to honor God no matter what it cost me, even if it cost me my marriage. Honoring God is going to be what I do. And I know what honoring God. And I guarantee you anybody else who has known the Lord for any period of time when. If I were just to ask you, what does honoring God look like today? You know what it looks like? It's not a question of maybe if I do this, that could be honoring God on some level. It's like if I say just your goal today, what God is calling you to do is be completely his man, be completely his woman, just to honor him. That when someone looks at your life or your decision, your choices, they can say, he did that because he loves the Lord. He did that because it's what God asks of him, or whatever. I know what honoring God looks like. And so that's how I walked through that period of time and depended on the Lord was I got up in the morning and I didn't know what to do to save my marriage. But I knew what to do to honor God that day. And a lot of that looked like showing grace to certain people. Even when everything inside you just wants to fight them, or tear and claw and scratch and undermine. I know what honoring God looks like. The question is, will I have the courage to do what that is? And those three guys have that courage, man. And not only do they get saved from the fire, they meet Jesus in that fire. And when they come out, they don't even smell like smoke. Which is crazy, because if any of you guys go camping, right, for five seconds, and the campfire is within 3,000ft of you, you smell like smoke. They come out not even smelling like smoke. And then what is it? Nebuchadnezzar gives testimony to the greatness of their God. No other God, he says, can save in this way. Praise be the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. And so my hope with my own life, is to be one of those guys that when I'm in front of the fiery furnace and when my faith is tested and when my heart is tested and when my convictions are challenged, that I'm not looking at what is the outcome on the other side, because I know the outcome I'm going to Be with Jesus one way or the other. Either he's going to meet me in the fire or I'm going to be with him for eternity. And that starts now, you know, like to be able to live out of your convictions versus out of the fear of what your circumstance is the most like, freeing thing on the planet, you know, and people see that and they give testimony. Yeah. Wow, that's a long winded answer. I don't know if I answered your even question, but that's. No, that was, yeah, that was great. And it made me think of this question too. So to a believer that says, like, hey, Jeff, I believe in Jesus, I'm saved, but I don't want to go through all this. Like, what, what do you say to them? Yeah, well, maybe it depends on what all the, all this is. Like, are you asking. Because we know that following Jesus is not an easy. Not like your life gets easier or better or perfect. Right. I think what I'm trying to say is like, I don't, I know, like I believe in Jesus as Lord over my life, but I don't want to, I don't want to forgive people here or I don't want to. I don't want to let go of these things or. Yeah, like that. Yeah. So let me think. So here's what I would say to, well, myself. First I have to remind myself of these things. And then I would say to anybody, hopefully I would start with my sons and then anybody else, I would say there's two things regarding that. Number one is I think people need to be. To understand that when you put your faith in Christ, when you call yourself a Christian and say, I want to walk and follow Jesus, your life will be better. It doesn't mean your life will be easier and your life will be less filled with issues and problems and struggles. Sometimes actually we'll have more because we know that we become the focal point of attack spiritually. If you go on God's team fully, you're almost inviting hardship into your life. You're inviting persecution on some level, you're inviting difficulty because there is opposition. So understanding that your life will still be better because everything that God wants to do in you, from the point that you give Jesus your life and your heart and you surrender. I'm not talking about believing, I'm talking about surrender. So when I told you a little bit of my testimony, whatever I would say when I was 11, when I was 17, were the two points where I was beginning to surrender. I believed, but I was giving him my Heart, my will, surrendering. It's yours. I need you. It's yours. It's not mine. It's yours. You know, Jesus prayed, it's not my will, but yours as we surrender to him in our life. I think what I would say to anybody is you can be 100% sure that everything that you are going through, everything that you're dealing with, everything that God is calling you to do, that's difficult. God is going to use to make you more like Jesus. Becoming Christlike is His goal with every single one of us. He wants to make us all, CS Lewis says he wants to make us all little Christs. You know, we're all to mimic him and imitate him. And the life that he lived is to be formed inside of you and me as the way that we go about our life and that we live and depend on Him. And so what I would say, if someone doesn't want to say it's too hard to forgive or it's too hard to trust in this moment, I don't know where to go. I don't know what to do. I feel alone. Didn't Jesus feel all those things right? It's to just begin to spend time with him and recognize that what you see him do and experience in the Gospels, you're going to have that experience too, but you're going to become more like him. And for me, you know, Romans 8, 28 and 29 are super important verses for a lot of Christians, you know, at least we know 8, 28, you know that for whom those that all that God works all things together for the good of those who love him and who are called according to his purpose. Oh, we love that. But I don't think everyone understands what the good is. And verse 29 tells us what the good is because it's the explanation of God's definition of good. He says for those whom he foreknew, he predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son. So layman's terms, conformed. The image of His Son means he wants to make the good is he's going to use that to make him more like Jesus. So my question would be not do I want, Is it hard to forgive? My question is, do you want to become more like Jesus? Because in doing that, in forgiving, because the Lord has forgiven you, what you're doing is letting some of that life be made true of you and you're healing that part of your own heart that's hard or that's self centered or you're understanding a little bit more of what it's like because when you forgive somebody, you pay the price. You pay a big price when you forgive. You have to give up all of your rights and all of your claims. Right. But you're also setting yourself free. And I think doing the hard, you know, I love that quote. You know, doing the right thing and the hard thing is often the same thing. That's the truth. However, it gets easier as you do it more and more and more. And you exercise that, you exercise that muscle of faith because when you see that God is changing you and making you more like Jesus, like, it's almost like it's like a drug. It's a spiritual drug. It's like I want more of that and whatever it takes to make me like your son, that's what I want. Most people don't want to invite that because you're like, oh man, I'm going to go through a test. And yet I guarantee you we all want the freedom that comes on the other side of that. We all want the. So I would just tell anybody who's said, it's just too hard. I don't know if I want to change or I don't know if I can do it. You can do all things through Christ, right? Especially forgive or especially even just to hold on to him. I think a lot of times we're just sort of hanging on. Like Jacob was hanging on to that angel and just saying, I can't let go of you. I don't know what's going to happen if I let go of you. I'm just going to hang on. And so a lot of our life with the Lord is just hanging on for dear life. But you can be sure that if you honor God and if you do what he wants you to do in that moment, if you surrender yourself and say, lord, I want your Holy Spirit to be the thing that guides me, not only will it be the life of Christ be formed in you a little bit more, but it'll be easier the next time too. Yeah, I mean it's. I don't know how to describe it other than sort of some of the terms I've already used, but the perspective, we want to see things from God's perspective. And so if you can see as much as possible, Scripture tells us kind of how God sees things. And as you begin to see yourself in that moment, almost from a third party view, you see, in that moment it's not just me forgiving my, you know, my co worker for Being lame or, you know, stealing my lunch or whatever. Like, it's not just forgiven. It's like from God's point of view, what he's doing is making me a lot more like Jesus in this moment. And that's what I want. I invite that, like, help me to see what this situation is cultivating in me. Yes, 100%. Help me to see what, what, what. How my testimony is going to be different five years from now. Yeah, I'll have a story to tell of the goodness of God and the grace of God in my own life. I think, you know, a lot of people say God never, you know, God has never tempt you beyond what you can handle. Which I don't really know if I agree with that understanding of that verse, but I would say it's also true. It's more true of the other side. We have our own threshold for, like, what. What difficulty we can. Or what temptation we can push away and, and protect ourselves from. But we also have to understand that, like, we also have our limits on how much good we think we can do. And like, I don't know if I'm that kind of a person. You know, you put people on a pedestal where you say that person's super ultra spiritual or that per. And like, we not only limit, like, how much I can handle from a temptation side, but it's almost like how much I can handle from doing good and building the kingdom side. And there are no limits with the Lord. You just be faithful to him, be connected to him on a moment by moment basis. You try to stay in real time with him as much as possible. And you don't get to decide how much influence he gives you and how much grace he gives you. You have all. You have full access to all of it, you know? Yeah. So how about, how about you, like, what would you say to somebody who didn't want to do something difficult or said, it's just too hard for me to do this, or I don't know if I can do it, what scripture's asking me to do here? Yeah, well, I think I could really. First of all, I want to say I think I could really grow in that area of my life where I'm. Where I'm like, confronting people in that way. You know, I think that for me is definitely a weakness I have of like, hey, this is why you should do it. Unless it's someone who I'm really close with. You know, if it's somebody I'm really close with, then I can say, hey, like, this is why. And I can be blunt with them, but I think with people that I. Well, first of all, I don't even have people that are asking me that, you know, so, uh. But, yeah, I th. I think with people who I'm closer with, it's more. It's more comfortable, you know, because it's. I know that I'm not gonna offend them, you know, And I think that. So, yeah, I want to preface that by saying I think it's something I'm trying to learn how to do. But at the same time, I. I don't know. I think, like. I think it comes back to, like, what. What Jesus has done for us, you know, and, like, what's. What's our. What's your testimony? And for me, like, my testimony was like, I know what my life was like without him. I know what my life was like without him, and that's not something that I want to go back to. And, like, I'm in it now, you know? I'm in it. My. My family is. They're all Jewish, you know? Like, I'm. I look at it as like, I'm in too deep now. You know? Jesus was Jewish, too, right? You could tell. But, yeah, I see it as like, we're already here. You know, we're already here. Like, let's. Let's do it. And I think there's. For me, like, I love being told by God what to do. Like, when he makes it clear, that's like, let's go. So I think the hard thing is being patient and being still. That's hard. And another thing that's hard is not getting angry. I think that that also plays into patience. But, yeah, what I would tell somebody is like, you're already here. You know, you're already here. Is this, like, where do you want to go and kind of leave it? I think people need to make their own choice, too, you know, and if somebody hears that and they're like, oh, I don't want to do that. I. I don't. I don't think that my job is to. Is to argue with it, like, hey, come on. Come on, you know, and be on them, I think it's different. I don't have kids, you know, but I would imagine if I had kids, I'd want to be on them more than that. So that's what I would say. Yeah, that's good. I mean, as you were talking, it just made me think, just spending time and look and staring at Jesus's face, you know, all the time. Remembering what he has done for you. Wasn't it hard for him to do that? You know, didn't that cost him something? I mean, my forgiveness cost him his life. That's pretty hard. I'm not asking you to forgive to that degree or sacrifice yourself for somebody, but. I don't know. It says in Ephesians 5, husbands, love your wives as Christ has loved the church. Wow, that's a big request, I think. Oh, that means I should do the dishes from time to time. No, he means sacrificially, unconditionally, and even when it's not being repaid, because that's how I am with him. And he did it. Whether when it. Before I acknowledged him and when I don't acknowledge him or when I deny him with my actions and my attitudes, he is still there. He is faithful. He is loving. He's perfect. Like, he's gracious. I have. I'm supposed to. That's how I am supposed to be with my wife. Yeah. And. And. And I go, I don't know if I can do that, but I know he's done that for me, and I know. I receive that. I feel it, I understand it. And I go, if he loves me that way, I can at least try to love somebody else that way. That sacrificial. I mean, just. I mean, just stare at Jesus. Just remind yourself, moment by moment, what he has done for you and who he is for you, and let that be the strength you need to do that next. Next right thing. That's what I would say. Yeah. And, like, we have all the answers we need. You know, we don't have. There's a ton we don't know. You know, there's a lot that's mystery, but at the same time, we know enough, which is what he's done for us. And I think the big challenge is just. Or for me at least, is like, it's remembering in those moments, you know, it's like in that moment when I get worked up or when somebody does something and I'm upset, or it's like, it's remembering, you know, and. Yeah. So what would you say? How can you. How can you practice. How can you practice that and exercise that muscle? Which muscle? Specifically? The. The remembering muscle. Yeah, yeah. Like reminding yourself, like in. In the moment when I, like, get angry, and then I'm like, all right, let me remember what Jesus has done for me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the best way is. I. I don't know. You just. It's just. You have to spend time In Scripture, and to know his Word, you have to know, you know, what would he say or what would he pray in this moment? Or what would, you know, in the New Testament with the apostle Paul? Or what would Peter like when you have God's Word in your heart? I think a lot of your reactions and a lot of your attitudes are informed by that. So we need to be in Scripture all the time. And, you know, it's funny because, you know, I told you I grew up like this was in this house, church. We used to sing Jesus people songs when I was growing up, like these kind of funny 70s scripture songs and stuff. But I have so much of God's. I have so much of God's Word, like, hidden in my heart from these little songs I sang as a kid. And I don't have to wonder, what does the Bible say about this? Or if I would say about that. I've spent a lot of time. I mean, I. There's obviously a lot of verses. I don't know, there's a ton of verses that I couldn't tell you the reference for half of them, but I instantly know, you know, like, for example, if it says, if I'm struggling, like, if I'm struggling with being super sarcastic or just making a joke that hurt someone's feelings, and rather than get defensive and be like, oh, you shouldn't be so sensitive, or, you know, I'm just a sarcastic person, or, like, I used to tell people, I only make fun of people I like. So you should be, you know, you should consider it a badge of honor when I. When I rip on you or whatever. No, like I. Ephesians 4, 29, right? Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouth, but only what is helpful in building others up according to their need, that it might benefit those who listen, I go, am I doing that? Well, no, obviously not. I mean, there's times when I could joke around with people and it actually. It's a positive thing for everybody, or it's, you know, we can't. They're in a situation with a group of friends or whatever. We're like, that's why we love getting together. We mess around. But is it helpful? Is it beneficial? So, like, I mean, I have that in my head, and it's like, that's the first verse my mom told me to memorize in high school because that was so sarcastic. And I got in trouble multiple times, got kicked out of class once when I was a freshman in high school for making a stupid joke. And she's like you need to be reminded that it matters to God when and how you say things, you know? And I was like, okay, whatever, you know. But so the more you know what Scripture tells or, like, what the Bible would teach us or tell us or remind us of how we ought to be as followers of Christ, it's a little bit easier to go, I know what I should do in this situation. But we have so many reference points and we have so much, many resources nowadays. It's like, we have no excuse. I mean, you could just go, AI, you know, make me a list of the verses that actually come to mind when I, when I get angry. It'll make it for you and you can ask it for. Make it a really pretty, beautiful chart, right? Or put this into a song that. With, you know, Taylor Swift melody for me so I can memorize it and it will do it and you can listen to it in the car. Like, what excuse do we have not to know the Word and not to let it be hidden in our heart? So I don't know. I would say, how do you know what he would do in that situation? Well, we have enough in Scripture. God gave us the guidelines and the roadmap in scripture for what he asks us to do and what we would expect of us if there's a specific situation. I mean, that's why you kind of go to your trusted people in your life or you go talk to your pastor or whatever. Like, you don't know exactly how to work out a situation if you're dealing with something. And so much of this sounds like, oh, just be a really mature Christian and everything works out great. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is use every resource, I guess, in your life. The people who, you know, love the Lord, the people who you're walking through. If you don't have a community, make that a priority to seek it out. And that takes time and effort. Like, we've been part of a life group in our. We switched churches for the first. We were in the same church for 22 years, and then we switched churches. And it's been like four years of trying to, like, get planted and feel at home and get connected. Well, we know and we know people and stuff, but, like, you don't share life yet. You don't go below the surface, really. You don't know if you can trust these people. You don't know if they're going to be there when push comes to shut, right? So I would just say we have to cultivate not only a love of, you know, love of God's word or whatever and spending time with it, but we have to cultivate relationships. We have to cultivate life in the body of Christ. We have to cultivate community. We have to cultivate, you know, who we look to for answers and, hey, can I talk to you about this? Or I'm really struggling with something, but open yourself up to letting God use the people around you to instruct you and help you grow. We don't grow in a vacuum. That's interesting too, what you brought up about being planted at a church. Yet we still have these thoughts of, like, oh, I can't. Can I trust this person? You know, because, like, that's not how it should be, Right? By going to a church and with people who are. Call themselves Christians, you know, so what. Yeah. What do you have to say about that? For the people who are on the fence, It always goes. For me, you start with yourself, am I trustworthy? If someone comes to me that I don't really know very well and they lay this stuff on me, am I there for them? Or do I kind of. Oh, cool, awesome. Yeah, I'll pray for you, you know, and then never follow up with them. Never, never engage that. So I have to, I. I have to be the person in the life of other people that I want in my own life, if that makes any sense. I can't be that for myself. But just that just as, you know, just as the parable of, like, the Good Samaritan is like, it was like, which of these person who is my neighbor? Was the question the Pharisees asked. Is the person who lives next door to me, or is it even Samaritans? And Jesus changes the question not of, like, well, which person is my neighbor? Which of these men was a neighbor to the man who was injured? So, like, what I would say to any of us as we're struggling through and what I've had to tell myself, what my wife and I have had to remind ourselves of, is we have to be the person that we're looking for for somebody else. And so I have to engage people. And then you are risking yourself in community, especially even in Christian circles, right. You're risking yourself by opening yourself up to potential disappointment or people who, you know, no one's perfect, obviously, but people who might disappoint you or let you down or you might have thought, hey, this person and I really have a connection. And then all of a sud, and they change their number and they don't tell you their new number or whatever. It's a risk. Jesus risked himself with his disciples. He laid it and he had one that completely turned on him and he had how many that scattered in his moment of need? Nobody was there to be found. Nobody was there to be found. We know that his mom and John were at the foot of the cross when he was being crucified. So they kind of showed up for the very end, but they weren't there to protect him or they all fell asleep, you know, like he knows it, so he gets it too. Because even his best friends and even the people he's going to put in charge of sending the kingdom of God out are disappointing. Yeah. So I just remind myself that it wasn't easy for Jesus to build a community and it wasn't perfect either. I would simply say it's worth the effort. It's worth the effort. And when you find your people, and fortunately we live in a day and age with zoom or remote meetings and you can still connect with believers even if you don't live in the same city. Which is what I'm grateful. A couple of how I met you is through some friends who I meet and they're on Bible study virtually with us, but they have mutual friends who live here in San Diego. And we can take advantage of some things to make sure we still have those people and we're in real time in our life with people, even if we're not in the same town or the same church yet. And then slowly maybe invite other people in. And it's like grafting a tree. It takes time for that tree to attach and it could take up to five years for there to be fruit on that branch. But it's growing and it's attaching and the lifeblood is more and more and more flowing through it over time. And so I would say prayer and continual effort is sort of what it requires. And it requires you being, I don't know, maybe you invite somebody to coffee versus wait for them to invite you to coffee. Maybe you say, hey, would you like to go on a walk and pray with me? Vs waiting for someone to do that. I mean, you just start that way and then sometimes it sticks and sometimes it doesn't. I don't know how many great recipe for it. That's why I don't write. I don't write any books because my recipes all seem to suck. I mean, this is true. We have an awesome home group. But we were at the beginning of this process of my wife and I said hey, we wanted to host a group and try to get to know some people in this new church. Well, the first three or four times we went, we were the only people that showed up. And my wife, we thought, we thought this person was going to come or they had responded, hey, we'd love to be there. We'll see you on Thursday night. And then it showed up and it was just us, my wife and I, we came in two separate cars because I came from over here and she came from over there and we're like sitting there and then, and then she looks, she looks at me and goes, maybe, maybe we're the problem. Like, maybe it's us. Maybe, like maybe no one wants to hang out with us. You know, that's how we feel sometimes. It's not easy, and this is a side note, but I spend time with ballplayers. I served with an organization called Baseball Chapel. Who. Baseball Chapel has permission from Major League Baseball to place chaplains at every team, Major league and minor league and all over the place. So we have men and women who are there to just encourage people in their walk and be a spiritual resource and to do chapel services and Bible studies and stuff for those that want it. But you would think a group of like 25 guys and some players, 26 players and their coaches, you know, they're together all the time, that some of those guys would want to hang out if they're Christians, they'd want to hang out together and be real. Like, no, they want one on one Nicodemus in the back alley with me, but nobody else to know what's really going on in their life. They don't want to lose their edge. They want people to know that they have this struggle, right? So trying to form community and build a sense of we're in this together and we're here as a support for each other can be a hard thing. But then when one guy is willing to do it, when one person offers it and one person says, hey, next road trip, like if you want to go out on a meal, like go out in your bike, text me, I'll go with you. I want to hang out, I want to get together or I'm going to have a steady Bible study in my room before the game or whatever, and we'll get some food and anybody come. Well, it just takes one guy who is open that way and invitational that way, and all of a sudden you'll see, man, there's like five, six guys getting together and it's like breeding itself. It's like they like doing it somehow, and it's multiplying. It's like rabbits over here, you know, when. Anyway, it can't be me. It can't be the me that wants to see it happen, the guy from the outside who's the pastor type. It has to be one of the people who's in it who all of a sudden opens them. Opens themselves up and risks themselves and invites somebody into it. And then. But I. But I. There's a. There's a guy I'm thinking of who for two years, it was just he and I that would meet for Bible study. And then, I don't know, it's like he hit the right chord or something. And then there was like, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten guys that wanted to do it. And God had prepared him to say, I'm willing to do this by myself, but it's better if I get more guys. So I don't know. My answer to any of that stuff is simply be willing to do it yourself and invite others into it. And you might be surprised. Yeah. Yeah, that. Yeah, that's good. And I think that that is. That should be enough for anybody to do that. You know, to be that person to. That just reaches out and just starts it. Because, like, what's the worst thing that happens? They. They don't want to do it. And then you're like, you're doing it by yourself anyway. I mean, right? Yeah, just say, hey, I'm doing this by myself. Anybody want to join me? Yeah, you never know. You know, I've been fortunate because the Bible study that I'm a part of on Fridays has been going for years. I mean, there's a group of, like, 40 guys. There's, like, 20 guys that meet in person, and then there's 20 guys that come in on Zoom, and we're all, like, together, and we're whatever. And it's awesome, and there's momentum and there's like. Then I have to remind myself, 43 years. This is a mature tree, has big old roots. It's weathered a lot of storms. It's been pruned many, many times. You know, like, it's established. That's the right word. That's the word in gardening, too. It's an established thing. But then I talked to the guys who. Some of the guys were there at the beginning, and they're like, man, this was a struggle, right? Struggle to find somebody who was willing to lead the time or organize us. We just struggled beginning to find where we could meet, and then guys would move. And then all of a sudden the group would go back down to three guys again or whatever. But their faithfulness in the lives of each other and their willingness to, to work through that is, is the, are the roots that we're all benefiting from. Yeah. You know, and imagine, imagine this. Imagine the loneliness that your pastor feels or especially if you're, if you're, if your pastor, maybe you're in a spouse or something. They planted the church that you go to. Church planting is the loneliest vocation that I know of and the most difficult because you're an entrepreneur in a world that no one wants to buy that product yet. And you're putting your heart and your soul into something that you're not sure if it's just going to be any return or if it's going to survive. And you're not getting rich if it goes through. You're getting rich in relationships. But it's not like, oh, I'm going to hit this in five years from now. We can sell this thing at a crazy valuation. No, you're going in there in order to serve. And I know that being a pastor, not only having been one, but I know the stats that it is one of the most isolating and lonely businesses that you can be in. And imagine being a leader of a community and of a body of any size. Could be 20 people, it could be 2000 people. But not feeling like you can talk to anybody or open up for fear of what they're going to say or who it's going to get back to, or are they going to judge you or not listen to your sermon anymore? Or they admit they have a need for counseling or that they have this struggle with mental health issue, or that they're not really sure what to do with this passage of the Bible and all this stuff. And my question is, are any of us thinking, how can I be a support to my pastor? No, we're thinking about ourselves. We're thinking, man, I really wish I had friends. And I just think the more we think of others first in terms of what they need from me and what I, what God has equipped me to bring, maybe I'm going to receive also in a way that I don't recognize. And so what I've tried to do for just for myself, not as joy, not only did I try to create community. No, I mean, I would, I would say we volunteered to host a home group. Congratulations. You know what, what I would say is if there is an opportunity to serve or have a conversation or give A note of encouragement. Take it, take it. The moment you think of it. Yeah, the moment you think of it, if you're driving the car and you're like, oh, man, I haven't. I haven't talked to Jason in a bit. I wonder what he's up to. Don't just go, oh, that would be interesting, like, instantly. You know, hey, Siri, right? Shoot a text to Jason, let him know I'm thinking about him and I'm praying for him right now. Is there anything going on that specifically he would like me to know or whatever? Like, don't just have good intentions. Just begin to say, I want to be available to be a minister, even to my own pastor. Because that's what the whole thing is about. The whole thing isn't about getting together and having a lot of people get together and having good coffee and good snacks or whatever. The body of Christ. If you think about, like, early church, Paul doing missionary journeys and the churches he established and visiting these different people, like, they're just trying to survive as Christians in a hostile world. And they're also trying to be reminded they don't have the scriptures in their hands. They have these stories that have been shared with them and testimonies have been given to them, and they've seen glimpses of the power of God and the Holy Spirit that they can't deny. They're just trying to survive. But the church of Philippi, they think was like seven people. It's not like a church like we think about. It's like a handful of people trying to survive and put Jesus first. It's not going to be pretty most of the time. It's not going to be pretty, and it's not going to be easy. But the question is, are you going to be faithful? Are you going to be open for God to use you? Those kinds of things. So again, I go back to. It starts with me always. So if anybody wants to come to me for biblical counseling or whatever, you're not going to like it, because I'm not going to talk about anybody else. We're going to talk about you. I'm going to talk about my responsibility and what God calls me to do. Because when I look at Jesus, he didn't say. He said, lord, if there's be another way, I'd like to take that off ramp. But he didn't say, this is someone else's job to do. It's my job to do. Now, you and I were little Jesus. We're little Jesus people. We're trying to live the life of Christ, and we're trying to do what he would have us do. So if I was, you know, in a Jewish family who didn't believe he was the Messiah, what would Jesus. How would Jesus live my life if Jesus had my life to live in that moment? That's what it means to be a Christian. And it also, by the way, the name Israel, which Jacob, his name was changed to Israel. You know what the name Israel means? No. I remember it. Have you heard it? It means struggle. Okay. Or it literally means one who struggles with God. So to be the people. Yeah. To be the people of Israel. Right. Is to be the people who struggle. The people he is closest to, the people. He is unconditionally going to be their God, and they are going to be his people. They struggle. So all I have to say is it is a struggle. Even for me, it is a serious struggle. But I cannot tell you the faithfulness of God in the midst of it. People let me down all the time, but he has never let me down. I want to dig into what you were talking about, too, with pastoring, and it made me think of two things. One, I think there's definitely something there with somebody basically just holding, like, a pastor's pastor, you know, like someone that they can go to, you know, there's definitely something there. And then the second thing that I thought of, too, while you're talking was. Yes, it's. It's. It seems lonely and isolating. I wouldn't know. But at the same time, shouldn't it be easier when you know why you're doing it and who's called you to do it? Yeah, for sure. I mean, like, it's almost as if. Remember why you did this in the first place. Yeah. Right. You got to remind yourself of why I got into this in the first place or why I felt compelled. Yeah. I think obviously, knowing who you serve and knowing why you're doing what you're doing. Yeah. I think it keeps people in the game for a lot, maybe a lot longer than other things would keep people around for. Yeah. Because if I was there and I was like, oh, I'm just here because my dad wants me to be here, or I'm here because I think. I think it would get me prestige. You know, it's like, that will burn out very quickly. Super quickly. Yeah. You know, it makes me think of. We just studied the book of, like, all, like, the prison letters of the Apostle Paul, Philippians, Ephesians, Colossians, and at the end of those letters, you See his personal greetings and stuff. And it reminds you that even the apostle Paul, when he was in prison struggling, wasn't alone. He had people that came and visited him, people that brought him letters, people that cared for his needs, churches that sent him gifts. So it's just an important reminder that even the alpha Christians, there's people around them, team of people around them who support. So. Oh, I think. I think you can only survive so long as a lone wolf Christian and especially as a lone wolf leader. Yeah. So it's true that our motivation really matters and we should remind ourselves that God can do all things and that the one we're serving is worth it and everything, but we're still human beings in the end. And when you feel alone and abandoned, and if you feel like an imposter, which I don't know how many other pastors felt that way. I know, especially when I was working at a church, and even now, oftentimes when I'm kind of in a pastoral role, I feel like such an imposter, you know, like I'm just. But. But then you have people in your life who remind you who you are in Christ and people who remind you of the goodness of God and the strength of God. They affirm what they see God doing in you, you know, those kinds of things. And that's all I would encourage anybody to do, whether it's for your pastor or your ministry leader or somebody who you look up to, you know, your favorite Christian podcaster or whatever. Like, just encourage. You're giving courage with your words and with you affirming what you see. You might be helping someone put one foot in front of the other when they thought that they were done putting the foot, you know, when they're done walking, you know, and you might be the person that says, keep going. It just does require other believers, is what I would say. Nobody can do this alone forever. We know that God sends people to the desert. We know that Elijah was alone. We know Moses was alone. We know Jesus was alone in the desert for 40 days or whatever, like, we can survive for a time. Yeah. But it is just that, it's survival. Yeah, that's a good question, though. And it's an important thing to think about because we all have a part to play. And then we also know on some level, we're all ministers of the gospel. Peter tells us that we're appreciative believers. So there's an aspect where it's not that person's responsibility or that person's. They may wear the mantle of sort of leadership in your church, or they may have the calling on their life that's different than yours, but all of us are supposed to have the same approach to life that they do. To serve. Yeah. Why do you feel like an imposter? Oh, you don't feel like an imposter? I would say. Wait, can I. Yeah, can I. I can answer that, sure. Yeah. I felt like in the past, I have a lot. And I guess maybe why I don't feel like one now is because I haven't really done anything that's been succeeding, you know? So I don't feel like. So I don't feel like there's anything really harsh that's a little harsh. I mean, to be, to be frank, though, like, I tried to start a business and ended up failing, and now, and now I'm going to get a job somewhere else. I. Yeah, I mean, I've been doing this podcast for, like, five years, and it has, like, a thousand subscribers. I don't, I don't feel like there's anything to be, like, super prideful about, you know? So I would say that, and then I would also, I would also say I have felt like an imposter a lot before I got saved and when I was, when my whole life was about, like, how can I just try to make as much money as I can? How can I just go around and party? And in those times, I felt like an imposter, and especially when my, my dad was sick and before he passed and I was distracting myself with going out and doing the things of the world like that, I felt like the most depressed and alone and isolated I ever felt. So in that way, I felt like an impost. Because you didn't feel like you were being yourself, Your true self. Yeah, Yeah. I felt like I wasn't letting people in. Yeah, I think that's. That that was probably the biggest reason why. No, I, I, I hear what you're saying, and I, I understand it when I, when I use the word imposter, I don't think I'm not being myself. Okay, so, like, Soren Kierkegaard had a great quote. He's a philosopher. I really appreciate a lot of Christian philosopher, but he said, with God's help, I shall become myself. And yet I would say, here's why I feel like an imposter. There's just a simple saying that I really grab onto. I'm not the man I want to be, but I'm not the man I used to be. Okay, so we're always in process. Yeah. God's moving us. We're changing. And I don't feel like an imposter in my faith. I don't feel like an imposter as a Christian because I don't expect myself to be perfect. But when people think that you're, you know, hey, man, your family, you have such. You have, like, a perfect family. Yeah, man. My wife would disagree or my kids would disagree that they have the perfect dad, you know, that person that, like, hey, it's. It's really not, of course, but the imposter portion. The imposter portion is when you don't have time or the ability to say, I'm going to explain this to somebody that I'm not. You just accept it, whatever anyone says about you or whatever. The imposter syndrome for me is just feeling like I don't have what it takes, but I'm going to pretend like I do, which is how you. I would say how everybody is sort of going through their life on some level. You fake it till you make it. Okay. That's just the reality. You don't ever go into something going, hey, I've done this before. I know what it's like. No, the first time you go, what you need is the 20 seconds of courage to walk in the door and just give it a shot. Yeah. Nobody knows what the result is going to be in the end. If they tell you they do that, they're lying. You know, I know guys who play for the Los Angeles Dodgers, some guys that come to chapel and they know that they have a high payroll and that they're a great baseball team, but they did not know they were going to win the game seven of the World Series. Like, we just know we got in the bag because we have this guy and this guy and this guy. No. Everybody knows they have to do their best, and we'll see how it ends up. Yeah, right. So imposter syndrome for me is simply just feeling like, man, I. I am. I am doing something, or I'm. I'm trying to be somebody that I've never been before or that I don't really know if I am. When you go to church as a pastor and you're driving to church, and you realize I just argued with my kids for 20 minutes before I left the house about getting ready for church on time or brushing their teeth or getting off the video games or whatever, and then you go to church, it's like, hey, everyone's happy and smiling, and your family's all cute. And standing in a row, it's like you feel like an imposter because you're like, if you only knew. Okay. And so that's what I'm talking about, is if you only really knew what I struggle with or what I deal with or what I was doing five minutes ago in terms of I had a conversation and then I had to hang up the phone and then repent instantly for my attitude or my approach to that conversation. You know, stuff like that. Yeah, I am. So it just, you know that you're nothing special. Yeah. Yeah. And it reminds me of the verse two, where it's like, teachers will be judged more harshly and the bar is definitely higher. Right. But at the same time, too, it's. It's like, you can. We're not. You're not meant to be perfect, you know, and of course. And I don't think it's fair for if people expect that of you. It's like, you're not gonna make everyone happy, you know, not everyone can like you. And I would say to you also, it's like. And if there's no harm to. In saying, like, hey, like, we just did this. Look, I don't know. Don't take advice from me. But if somebody was like, I don't know, next time you could interrupt them and just sneak it in and say, hey, like, actually, it's not this as this is. You know, it's not. I'm not as great as you think. I'm doing well. Yeah. I would say the best. The best way for me is to remind myself that God gets all the credit. Yeah. Rather than me learning how to. I want to take the credit for stuff. I am blessed. You look at my life. I'm not in my bank account, but if you look at my life. Right. I am blessed beyond belief. I am rich beyond belief. And it has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with the Lord. So I think the imposter syndrome probably comes into my life a lot when I'm just sort of taking the credit or accepting the credit for stuff that belongs to God. But there are just those moments when you feel like I am not sufficient for this task. And I'm going to pretend like I am or I'm gonna act like I am. I'm not gonna let anybody in and know that you should probably hire somebody else for this or bring somebody else in, you know? Yeah. But why can't you hold both at the same time? You know? It's like, so. Of course I do every day. Yeah. Yeah, every day I do. Yeah. Yeah. And because it's like, you can have that. You can be called to the task and not. And. And still be scared and worried. You know, it's like. Because I don't think God, like, God doesn't expect us to not have any worries or anything. Like, that's just. That. That's just impossible. And. And, yeah, it's impossible. Like, that's what. Like, he died on the cross, so we didn't have to carry that ourselves. I. I remember thinking the first couple Sundays when I was. I was 22 years old, and they hired me as a youth pastor at this church, and I'm like. And they go to the first Sunday morning and people introduce me, and then they talk to you afterwards. They're like, oh, hey, Pastor Jeff. I'm like, why are you calling me a pastor? I mean, nonetheless, my position, I did not feel like a pastor. I was not wise enough. I was not experienced enough. I was not trying to be somebody, like, authoritative or. I don't know. But that's the position I held, if that makes any sense, or that that was what they hired me to be in people's life in a certain way. Yeah. And so it's just sort of like, did they hire me because I was a pastor, or am I a pastor? Because they hired me and called me that. You know, it's like. So the imposter thing is just sort of like, well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be one. I'm going to do my best to be one, even though I don't feel like one. And that's all I'm trying to say is that I oftentimes don't feel like any of these things that we're describing. Like, I don't feel like I'm doing a good job of it, or I don't feel like I'm equipped for it, or I don't feel like I'm sufficient for that task. And yet. Yeah, he seems to have allowed me to continue, you know. Yeah, well, I think you're. I mean, when I stand in front of a group of, like, baseball. I didn't play baseball. I played baseball in high school for, like, five minutes. I didn't have. And I'm not there because I'm a baseball player. I'm there because I. I love Jesus, and I. I have the opportunity to serve in this role, to disciple guys. Yeah. And yet. What. I don't know. It's like anybody from the Christian world that looks. He goes, how'd you get this gig, I have no idea, bro. It has nothing. It has nothing to do with any of my. I didn't write any books. I got no credentials. I. I simply loved a bunch of teenagers and loved the word of God. And then somehow I found this opportunity through a relationship that I had. Someone said, you're the kind of person these guys need in their life or whatever. But then people go, how are you there? And every time I walk in there, I'm like, I don't know how I got to be the person to be in here. But the beauty of all that is when you know God has done something, when you know God has placed you somewhere, when you know that none of it was like, oh, I aspire to this thing. You're free to be yourself when you're. When you're there. You know what I mean? And to say, I believe that God has put me here for a purpose. But still, sometimes you just feel like, I don't know, because, like, what you're saying. Can both those things be true? And the answer is, of course, yes, they are true. Most of us. All of us. And even I quoted CS Lewis earlier. He says, you were supposed to be like little Christ. But then he says the next chapter is called let's Pretend this is in Mere Christianity. And the whole idea is that when you're a Christian, you pretend to be loving, and then you find that you actually feel more loving as you go. You pretend, you know, you do what you're supposed to do, you do the right thing, and then you end up. Your feelings will follow that as you go along, your desires will begin to become conformed to the things that you're doing and that you're believing. Yeah, it doesn't. You don't feel it first. So maybe what I'm saying is I don't feel it first. I feel like I'm faking it. But that's probably what we all do. Yeah. I want to say two things. First, I kind of disagree with CS Lewis. I don't think it's, like. Because, like, you're welcome, too, but better be careful. Just kidding. Yeah, I'm just joking. Okay, maybe it doesn't feel natural, but, like, you're really trying, you know, you're actively trying with, like, everything in your mind, soul, heart, and body to do what Christ has called you to be. So I don't think that's pretending. It might feel, like, unnatural. And then. So that's one thing, and then two. Also, I think your humility is a big reason why he's put you in these positions, you know, it's like, I think I can't think of a better person to be in that position than somebody who's like, I, this is what I struggle with, you know, and because like, what you're, you're gonna go have a pastor or chaplain who you're going to, and then they're like, oh, yeah, everything's perfect and jolly all the time. It's like, no, that doesn't make me want to open up or share what's going on in my life. And so I think that reason, like the feelings that you share is like almost the exact reason why, like why you're there. Sure, yeah. Hopefully, yeah. I trust that God has his reason, you know, and I don't doubt that. I, you know, when God puts you in a position, you shouldn't doubt that you're the person that he's put there. You're there, you're there right now. You're his person. We are ambassadors for Christ, right? We represent him. And I don't not want to be an ambassador. And I also don't want to just say, I want to only be an ambassador to Tahiti because it's really beautiful there and really small. I don't have a lot of responsibilities if I'm an ambassador for him. He gets to place me where he wants me to go. But maybe some of my imposter syndrome is me just going to God. Like, are you serious? You really think you want me to be that person? You know what I mean? But what I love about it is it gives me more confidence maybe than I would have in myself otherwise. Back in the day when I worked at summer camp, I worked at a place that was called Indian Village. And we had like, Indian names. We didn't use our real names and the kids didn't get to know what our names were. They would send you like a care package of cookies, you know, after they had come to camp, and they would, can I, can you tell me your real name? You know, this is like 9 and 10 year old kids. But I remember when I was in my Indian name, which was Straight Arrow, when I was Straight Arrow, I was confident. I was, I knew what's up, you know what I mean? I was fun. People wanted to be around me, you know what I mean? And then in my own life, I was like, insecure. I don't know if this person likes me. I don't really know. But like, when I was Straight Arrow, I could like, be the person I wanted to be. Does that make sense. Yeah. And that's how I feel as a Christian. Like, I don't. I'm not saying that I'm not myself. What I'm saying is my real self often feels. How is this possible? That I'm this person, I have these opportunities? Or how is it possible that God's doing these things through me? I know it's him, but, like, how did I get to be, you know, either either so fortunate to be in this position or so entrusted? Yeah. Like, with my kids. Like, they're amazing. They're like, he must have made a mistake. You know, like, he must. Like, that's how you feel so much of the time. It's like, really? I mean, like. Like, for example, I. I'm a part of this Bible study, and the average age of our group is probably 65. There's, like, 10 guys in their 80s, a bunch of guys in their 70s, a handful of guys in their 60s, a handful of guys in Their 50s. There's, like, five of us in our 40s, and now there's, like, four guys from Austin who are, like, in their 30s. Your friends. And this is an old group of guys who've been meeting for a long time. A ton of. A ton of wisdom. Just a ton of wisdom, a ton of experience, a ton of insight. And yet I was asked to sort of take the role of, like, facilitating and kind of leading the group, like, four years ago. Yeah. And I. And I felt, like, prepared for it, because this is kind of like what I love to do and what I've been doing as a church. And my mentor sort of asked me to do it at the time, and he's like, I want to send a step out of this and just sort of be a participant, and then have you sort of take it or whatever, which is fine, but, like. And then you're there, and they're, like, asking me. They want to know my opinion or my insight or what would you say? Or. I got to redirect the conversation. It's like, how dare I? One of our guys is an amazing guy. He's 83 years old. He's still in great shape, physically, mentally, everything. He spent six years of his life in Hanoi Hilton in terms of. As a POW in Vietnam. Has a crazy testimony, somebody that speaks all over the place. Just somebody who. I see him as such a. I mean, his experience with the Lord and his experience with people is just. He has respect everywhere he goes, and he should. And then he treats me as if I'm like, his. His pastor sometimes or Like, I'm the person he, you know, he wants my perspective or what should I do here, you know? And I'm like, bro, you tell me what to do. I don't tell you what kind of a thing. It's a lot of that. It's a lot of like. But Christ in me is what they want. Christ in you is what. Is what? Is what God wants people to see. They don't just want Jason. They don't want. You want Jeff. Because we'll mess it up and, you know, whatever. You know, we'll do the Tommy boy thing, always ruin the sale. But it's Christ in me. It's Christ in you. That's what they're after. And I think that's what people see, hopefully as much as possible. But I just know how much I struggle to live fully surrendered to Christ still in every area of my life. And it's too bad, but it's getting better. I told you before, I'm not the man I want to be, but I'm not the man I used to be. So keep moving forward within your faith. So, yeah. All right, let me ask you one final question, because I'm just curious. What has been your hope? When you started this kind of podcast, what was your kind of hope? Or why did you feel like God wanted you to do it? And then what do you hope when people come and they actually spend the time to listen for an hour and a half or whatever? I mean, because maybe you're. Maybe you're the next Joe Rogan. I have no idea. But, like, what has been your hope for it? And what do you feel like God wants you to do? Like, what are you doing to be faithful to what he's called you to do? Yeah, well, it's changed a lot. And I started this before I was saved, like, two years before I was saved, but really, yeah, and. And that's changed a lot. So at first it was, like, me kind of searching spiritually and having different guests, but, like, now what it is is looking at how people have come to find meaning and purpose in their lives. And a lot of that is, like, looking at the. The fruit of their life. And what I need to do to steward that is to get out of the way. And, like, that's. That. That was my prayer before I came on today, is like, help me to, like, get out of the way just so. Like, just so Jeff can speak and so that his story can come through. And so I think that's. That is what I need to do moving forward and Then also too, I want people to see. I want people to see how a relationship with Christ is not inherently just religious. And I want people to see that differently in different people's lives and how that, how that comes into fruition. And so, yeah, that's what I'd say. I love it. It's amazing that you started before you knew the Lord. Yeah. And now it's a journey of wanting people, sort of people's testimony to, to reflect the purpose that God has put into their life. The only way I would summarize it for myself, hearing what you're saying, I have lots of ways I could say it, but I always say it's great to do a 30 second testimony in real time, not my whole life. But right now, as I look at my life in the last 10 years, where God has renewed my purpose and also reorganized how it plays itself out. I would simply say I once was a broken, confused and lonely minister. You know, Pastor. Yeah. Who did not know what God was up to. But because I surrendered fully to Jesus in those moments and told Him I wanted to walk with him no matter what it cost me, I've experienced total deliverance from the pain and the difficulty and absolute, absolute renewed purpose in being called to be someone who goes and makes disciples of others. And it's been an absolute crazy roller coaster. And yet at the same time, it's just so. The way that God always works with people, it just happens to be in my story too. So he's healed me, he's cleaned me, he's refined me, and he's also reminded me that his grace is sufficient for me in every circumstance. I want to encourage anybody here who listens, even you. Go read Daniel chapter three and ask yourself, or ask the Lord if He would give you the kind of faith and the kind of courage that those men had that you and I could say, I know God can save me, but even if he doesn't, from this circumstance, because we know he saved us eternally, I, I know that God can save me from this circumstance, but even if he doesn't, I'm not bowing down. But even if has become like my mantra in life. Because I want to be a person who lives out of, of the overflow of my convictions and my relationship with Jesus such that all my circumstances are just, it's just the, the background of the picture. Yeah. Amen. Cool. Awesome.