Set, Setting, and Stewardship for Plant Medicines

Speaker A: Um, I'm just really excited, uh, about this pod, about this podcast episode and would, uh, yeah, I'd love to just hear your guys, your story, how you got into this sort of, this sort of work of facilitating, uh, um, psychedelic healing sessions. I don't want to put words to what you guys do, so it would be best if you guys just, uh, describe that.

Speaker B: Yeah, let's say.

Speaker C: Okay. So I guess the original, the long story is when I was younger, I was called to participate in psychedelic journeys. At the time, I would have said that it was for curiosity or for fun. Looking back, I think my, my soul, my spirit knew that this was a, uh, connection and a tool that I can use in life to help me expand my mind, expand my heart, to keep me in alignment and integrity with who I am and who I want to be. And so that path of curiosity, curiosity and for fun lasted into my adulthood. And about eight years ago, I moved to Costa Rica and realized the importance and the beauty that these plant medicines can have for healing and expansion. And so then I shifted to also wanting to offer the space and a safe space and a deep space at which I can bring other people into these experiences. That's also the same time that I met Danny. So, so both found the path separately for ourselves and then came together and built the spaces to bring others.

Speaker A: So how did that idea of like, doing this, it sounded like you were both kind of on a similar journey and then it connected with one another. How did, like, what was that next step of being involved with the plant medicines and then taking that step of, hey, let's do this together with, uh, four other people? How did that come into fruition?

Speaker B: I think for me, I had, um, I've been on this path for about 16 years now and I had taken a, ah, one year sabbatical. That turned into 10 years of just dedicating myself to learning and researching and understanding everything there is to know or as much as you can around antigenic plant medicines. So that really became, um, a big starter. But there was a point, uh, where I could no longer just be a bystander and just a witness to everything. And really I, I felt the need and desire to really step up and do, um, give back somehow from everything that I've learned and understood. Especially because in the walk of getting to know all the different, uh, modalities that are out there, I was also witnessing some things that were just very, um, negligent and things that I say, this doesn't feel right that this should be done this way. So I felt that there was a need for doing things differently and better. And of course, uh, Sarah comes into my life and I think that was the yin and the yang that was needed to come together to make perfection and that crossing together and converging together and doing the passion that we both have for this level and commitment to be of service to others, number one, but primarily to create the environment, the space that could be conducive for people in of all sorts of walks of life can step into that. So it created that environment and here we are.

Speaker A: Wow. So like, what, walk me through, like, what is that environment that you guys envisioned that was going to be different in, you know, when you first, when you first started doing this together?

Speaker C: Yeah. My first experience with ayahuasca was in Peru. It was what felt like in the middle of nowhere in the jungle. I had no English instructions. There wasn't anyone there that spoke English fluently. And not that it was not, uh, a safe space, but there's levels to safety. There's are you safe and do you feel safe? And I knew that if I wanted to leave, I wouldn't know what direction to go. And so I didn't dive deep that night because of the way the setting, um, talk about set and setting. The setting was, didn't have the layers in which I could go in and dive in deep. And so I've experientially know for myself and then now through hundreds of people, that the safer we are and the safer we feel, the deeper we can go. And so it was important to me to create a space for people to come and feel safe. And uh, the experiences in the jungle are important and vital. And it's not always the best experience for someone's first time or second or third or fourth or fifth. People would like to have preparation. People would like to have somebody there to help them process. People would like to have someone there to help them integrate. And so those are the things that we find valuable to our, uh, core. In addition to, of course, the foundation of the ceremony itself. We can have strong, powerful, traditional ceremonies. And then outside of that space, we work with people to make sure that their nervous system is back reset. That after ceremony they can go into a space where they could turn on their ac, they could take a warm shower, they can do what they need to feel comfortable and safe and continue on the journey.

Speaker B: Yeah, I know that this, you know, this is, uh, the work we do is ancient work. There's nothing new to what we're doing. This is something that has been practiced for thousands of years. And of course it's coming deep from the Amazon jungle, um, and ultimately opening up to a more broader, um, demographic. And the Western world is tapping into it. So I realized that there was some need to just adapt it in a way that conducive to creating that right environment. So for us also, just the lifestyle of the indigenous communities is not the same as the lifestyle as the Western community. So making sure that everyone was safe and that the proper screening was, uh, being put together in place and that there was proper integration, um, that took place. So all of these factors made it, uh, for us to realize the importance of putting what we call a container together. And it's a, uh, very well curated container that has a lot of thoughtful intention behind it. And to create the environment where people like Sarah says, can find, uh, that level of trust and that will ultimately end up in being in a surrendered state which allow you to do deep inner work within the medicine.

Speaker A: Yeah. So do you find that the people who come out of it, you know, most fulfilled or with the most clarity are the people that have those kind of deeper levels of surrender in their experience?

Speaker C: Absolutely, yeah.

Speaker B: This is actually the key marker around the work and in antigenic plant medicines is how much that central nervous system is ready for receipt. That's the key marker on this because. And that's ultimately we work very, uh, hard at achieving that for the guests, allowing their central nervous system to really be at ease and relax. Because the more it is, then of course, the easier the medicine will work and will allow to have that symbiosis between the medicine and the individual. So there is a, uh, clear aspect, uh, of the difference between one and the other.

Speaker A: That's interesting. Were you gonna say something?

Speaker C: Yeah, I was going to add that that doesn't mean that we have to be in a perfect mindset so we can talk about set and setting mindset so people can come in with things that they're working on. Whether that's living in fear or having anxiety or depression. It's feeling safe, so feeling safe to work on these things. So that's a lot of the work that we.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting. Uh, and I'm curious too. Is there like a. Would you say there's a specific theme that people show up with, you know, that you can, as practitioners who have done this for. I don't know how many people have you guys done this for? Hundreds? Thousands? Thousand? Yeah. Is there. Would you say there's like kind of a common thread between those people? That are, that you find yourself coming into to your, to your retreats.

Speaker C: I do find that as people get to know each other, they realize they have a lot more in common than they think they do. A lot of people think they're alone with some of their challenges and their beauties. Um, and so that is common that we have a lot to talk about, a lot in this interesting web that we weave. However, there are, I would say, two separate areas in which people come for. And so some people are on the healing side and then some people are on the expansion side. Now, um, some people that come in for healing, they receive expansion as well. And some people that come in for expansion, they also see areas in their life that could become stronger and more foundational. Now to say something in common, it. Some people are for example, they are shifting in their identity. So that could look like a retirement, that could look like um, a woman coming to an age at which her roles that she has played and the mask that she has worn are so uncomfortable that she cannot stand it. And so how do we shift through re identity? We have worked with um, athletes mid career and we have worked with athletes retiring and moving through that process. And so that also is equal to people in high performance jobs where they feel like they're on the edge of something and they would like to elevate. Uh, that can also come from people that feel like they're blocked, but they don't even know what that means. And how do we unblock so that we can be the highest version of ourself, the most vibrant version of ourself.

Speaker B: Yeah, but in general it's people from all sorts of walks of life because there's healing and expansion need on both sides. The reality is, is that the mental health crisis is so huge out there that it's ultimately bringing a lot of people in that regards. But the people on the expansive side is really where it's interesting. We have a lot of uh, people that have kind of climbed that corporate ladder all the way to the top and they're like, you know, in this realization that I said, okay, I've got to the top now what? And then there's those many of those, I think one common thread, many people in seek of ironically as your podcast purpose.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: They are on that path of seeking what is uh, my purpose. And one thing, uh, these plant antigenic plant teachers can provide is certainly a, uh, a glimpse of what that purpose could look like.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Um, and yeah, I've done, I've done mushrooms a couple of times. And I've definitely experienced that. I would say that expansion, you know, my setting of doing it was, does. Was nowhere near as, you know what it sounds like, this safe environment that you're providing people. You know, it was like I was going to go to a Chili Peppers concert and I just took like 3 grams and I was like, oh, we'll just figure it out, you know, we'll go. And it was honestly one of the scariest experiences of my life. We ended up not even going to the concert. Um, but. But uh, yeah, I think it definitely, it definitely has that capability, you know, of. Especially if you go in, you know, I've gone in other times where I have that intention of wanting to understand, you know, myself better or. Yeah, my, my purpose. And I have experienced that it has provided, you know, it has helped me to gain clarity around that. Um, I'm, I'm curious too, you know, because, you know, it seems like, you know, this is a beautiful place and you know, it costs money for people to get on a plane and go somewhere and to take time away from work. But like what, I guess, like how from your perspective, you know, what is that? How does, how would you make this more accessible to other people who are searching for, you know, purpose, clarity, um, healing?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, me or you go for it.

Speaker B: So I would say, um, you know, it's really important. You know, we live in such a hectic, fast paced life that we rarely find the time to slow down and take a pause. If we are really seeking purpose, we're not going to find it in the exterior, we're not going to find it in the distractions that the world provides. It really is taking a moment to retreat from society, retreat from everything that's surrounding. Finding yourself in a new environment where then you can find all the right elements and ingredients for the things that have any really true meaning and value in your life to really surface. So I think for us, um, we understand how important it is for people to break time away. And that's probably one of the biggest commodity nowadays is time. And we value that significantly. So we take a lot of uh, personal care and making sure that the people that are coming in and dedicating their time to us for this and to themselves really provides, uh, as much as they can get from this. Right? Of course we offer a seven week program that allows people to come in three weeks, uh, not come in, but really begin on a three week program prior for preparation purposes, one week boots on the ground, retreat kind of thing. And then of course three Weeks of post integration work. So accessibility can be found in many ways. We have communities that we've put together. We do, uh, monthly, uh, talks and aspects that we can start bringing people in. The conversation, which is a step one for most people, is really just beginning with the conversation. And then of course we find what is the right element for you. What's the right plant medicine for you. Not just a free for all on how it is, but where are you in life. We take the time and care to look for the level of readiness that the individual may be. So we know that we can time the right, uh, individual for the right group. We, um, work with small, intimate groups. And so there's a lot of, uh, intention and care that goes behind that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: I guess I'll just add that I love the question on accessibility because that's near and dear to our heart. Uh, when we started almost nine years ago, it is a part of the work that we do that anyone who is called to the medicine should have access to it. And at the time I was thinking of people that cannot afford it. And so we would. We have community ceremonies in which we have funds for people to come for free. Now when I say free, we do want commitment. And so that's still very important to us that there is an investment whether that's time. And as we grew in this, I also realized everyone who is called to the medicine should have access to it. And so that is all economic statuses. And that is the people that will not be able to dive deep in the jungle. They want to have a small group, they want to have personal care. And so, uh, we're so proud and honored to offer, um, both sides of this that behold retreats, where, um, is the small retreat group and very comfortable, comfortable, cozy, uh, bungalows and environments at which you have that privacy when you want it, and then you have a team when you want to have conversations and go into the ceremony. Um, I would encourage anybody on this path, wherever they are, just to make sure that as they're connecting with different organizations and we of course hope that you connect with us. But whether you come m into ceremony with us or others, when you start those conversations, if the spirit is come on down and see what happens versus let's do this like an interview. You're interviewing us and we are interviewing you. It's important to us that you personally are called to the medicine and that you're committed to a life change. Um, we want to make a beautiful difference in this world. And that comes from people not Looking to just come and have their mind blown but very profound experience and then make directive and decisions in their life to make it better.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I, Yeah, I think it's really beautiful your guys heart behind this. You know, and making it um, you know, you know, wanting to serve people but also understanding that like not everybody can just you know, take whatever two weeks away from work and go down to, to a nice place and do this. You know, it's like yeah, that sounds, that's great to be able to do it in that sort of place. But also I think your guys willingness to make that accessible for people who also feel um, you know, called. I think that that's really uh, admirable. And, and, and also too the other thing that I was thinking about while you're saying that is it sounds like almost like a, like a heart posture thing that people have of like feeling like this is what I need and almost like a hu. Acknowledging hey, like I need, I need help from, I need help from somebody else or from these plant medicines to you know, to get to where I'm going. You know, you see that. Is that something that is, is that something that you would say you look for in every person before you admit them onto your retreats?

Speaker C: Yes and no. The yes is the part of everything that you just said. And sometimes our ego doesn't allow us to, to acknowledge that within ourself. So for example, nine years ago I didn't really like the word plant medicine because to me medicine is if you're sick and I'm not sick. And so there are people that come for that expansion and they realize there actually are some underlying things. And so even if we recognize that in a call, we wouldn't need somebody to face that right away. That can fold for them as they're here as they're working through the process.

Speaker B: Yeah. I want to mention something going back around the accessibility aspect. You know, there's uh, many organizations or groups out there working with this um, uh, type of antigenic plant medicines. And I know for us accessibility comes in many ways of looking at it. And we've decided to create an environment that the uh, accessibility that we're creating is accessibility to those that wouldn't otherwise go into the jungle and go raw into somewhere where they're just like, you know, in the middle of the booth Goonies. And this just. It wouldn't be feel comfortable or safe in that environment. So for us it's. How can we create an environment that is conducive for those that otherwise would not entertain this. And it's really been a uh, key model for us in our case to create the right, safe, cared for environment that people then would say, okay, I am going to do this. And it's allowed for people from all walks of life to step into this. From top athletes to CEOs to, to politicians, politicians to uh, surgeons and doctors. I mean across the board we've had, you know, enormous amount of people that otherwise you would not see them in the Amazon jungle.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you also mentioned you had, there were priests, you mentioned on our prior call that would, would come. Right. I'm very curious. Like what was. Like what is that? Like when or like what have some of, some of the things that you've seen of these people who come in with a certain belief system and then they have this encounter with um. Uh, sorry, you said ethno. What's, what's the term you guys use? Ethno. Sorry, can you say it one more time? Okay. Antheogenic substances. Is that what you said? Okay, yeah. So like, what has, like what have those outcomes looked like in regards to their belief systems?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I think first is a even deeper connection to um, the spiritual side of whatever their religion is. I feel like they not feel like I have experienced and witnessed their heart grow even bigger in non judgment and non judgment for others, even people, uh, that they don't agree with. And it can really also solidify their connection with their faith.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The transformations we've witnessed is, is quite vast and vary from, from people. But their ability to reconnect uh, with themselves is a big one. And regardless of their belief system or religion, everything, all that is just simply wiped off for one second slate is cleared out and now they have just a clear reconnection with them first. And then of course they reconnect with the nature, with their relatives where everything that has any real meaning and purpose starts to take place. So um, it's beautiful to see uh, at you know, all the different walks of life, what that means to them and how we witness their transformation along the way.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I'd also like to add that we've had a lot of people also come in that perhaps had a, ah, childhood with a religious connection given to them with their parents and say something has happened where they have a disconnect from that they threw everything out the window as opposed to saying this landed, this resonated with me and this did not. And taking what was healthy and beneficial and loving and connection and uh, the path of the golden rule for ourselves and for others, everything was thrown out the window. And so it is also beautiful to see people reconnect. Reconnect in a way in which they have more perspective of the spirit of spirituality. What was the purpose and the truth, not maybe what had happened, um, from humans within their religious.

Speaker A: Wow, that's, that's really interesting. And to, to be able to have, you know, that expanded, um, awareness of looking at like this was to be able to critically look at like this is what was true, this is what was not true. Not like clumping them together like that is. Yeah, I'm really curious, like how do you, how do you facilitate that? Um, yeah, self reflection.

Speaker C: So I'm so happy to say that we don't necessarily have to facilitate that. It is the work with the human and the plants. And our work is, say the next day there is some processing we can guide in that processing. The work is really with them and the plants.

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah, if anything, all we're doing is creating this supportive, loving environment for people to really connect with their higher self and the ability to, through the aspects of these antigenic plant medicines and their ability to uh, tap into an altered state of consciousness, which isn't uh, something easily done in the world out there. It takes a Buddhist monk, takes years for them to find themselves in that space to give you an idea. But in a, uh, one night ceremony that you're able to just activate an area of the brain, for instance, that has been dormant or stagnant, atrophied for the majority of your life. And all of a sudden it becomes hyperactive and you have now an ability to have a wine perception in life and starts with a level of introspection, right? Starting witnessing who you are and self actualizing and realizing who you are. And from there comes the real beautiful changes and transformation.

Speaker A: Wow, how have you guys developed as people through this process of leading people through these experiences.

Speaker C: M. So what do you always say? Three things that happen.

Speaker B: So three things that I would say that uh, Ayahuasca, for instance, provides is awareness, awareness, awareness. And from there we get to realize what are the changes we need to make in our lives. What are those things that we need to tweak in our lives to really be the highest version of ourselves in any way. So I think the level of constant awareness, because as humans we live in a society that is full of distractions, actions. It's designed to take you from your north. So when people come to our retreats, they find themselves again in that north state. Their intuition levels are heightened. They're able to really understand better how to process decisions in their life. And they get a clarity in very aspects of themselves. So that's one of the beautiful aspects of tuning in. Um, we like to call it like a, uh, complete attunement to the body, to the mind, to the spirit. And it goes far beyond the five senses we're taught. Right. It really activates other senses that people aren't even aware of. And so it's. It really becomes quite magical and powerful at the same time to. To see and witness people go through this process.

Speaker A: And what about you, Sarah?

Speaker C: So I think in my humanness, what has shifted in really beautiful ways is, let's say eight years ago, if something came into my life, I may have been upset for a week. And that week looked like, uh, anger. It may have looked like sadness, it may have looked like resentment. And that space of being in it to observing it or being aware of it has gotten shorter and shorter and shorter. So, um, and not always, but I do feel very centered in a space at which when something comes into my life, I fundamentally know that all of us humans, humanity, we're doing the best we can with what we have. So I have kind of a baseline of compassion and a baseline of peace.

Speaker A: Is that like, would you credit that from the experience itself or the, you know, like the integration following and as more of like a daily thing?

Speaker C: For sure, a daily thing. Um, I'll give an example of what could happen in a ceremony. So I'm in a ceremony. And by the way, I know that people hear about the challenges of ceremony, and we prepare and we prepare others for the challenges of ceremony, but ceremonies are incredible. And I'm having an amazing time. I'm connected. And all of a sudden there's something a little dark, uh, that comes up. Uh, not good or bad. Just there's some. A challenge there. And if I face it and I could not face it, it'll come back like life. Life and ceremony reflect each other and say, I face it. Um, an example of what could happen is it says, hey, Sarah, did you know you have this pattern? And perhaps that could be that I don't build something with people that I love because I'm afraid that if the relationship didn't work out, I would lose everything. Did you know that you do that? And then I would say, I did not know that. And it goes, let me tell you why. And it could bring me to a point in my life where it says, this is where that fear developed. And m. Then I go through the Rest of ceremony, loving everything. And then the next day I'll reflect on it and say, is that true? And then I'll look back and I'll see that I've chosen careers where I do it on my own. I travel alone, I do these things alone. And when I'm building something, I always have something over here for the. Just in case. Yes, that is true. I have not fully dove into something out of fear of losing it. Would you like to keep doing that? No. Okay. What steps do you need to take where you quit moving in fear and you move in love and then take those steps. And so in case you can't tell, that was one of the biggest shifts. I've had a few big shifts and that's one of the biggest once. And this is where we are because I was able to make that shift.

Speaker A: Wow, that's awesome. And it's clear that's like really brought like, brought you guys together, you know. And I assume as, as you have been together, it's probably brought you closer together, you know. And I, yeah, for, for me, you know, I, uh, prior to taking uh, psilocybin, since it sounds like we're using scientific language, um, magic, magical, magic mushrooms, uh, I, uh, I had lost. I, yeah. So, um, three months prior I had lost my dad. And that experience of, of losing my dad, he, he had a terminal, ah, esophageal cancer. So from the onset of his illness, you know, he passed away nine months later. And I had a lot of, you know, anticipatory grief, um, anticipating him dying. And yeah, I think that that experience really made me question like what I was living for, you know, and at the time it was. I was a senior in college, so I was, I was still very young. Um, but I was living for, you know, validation of others. I was living for, um, validation of myself. I was living for like nothing in my life was, was really about other people or serving other people. And it was all about just gratifying my, my own sense of self. And I think when I, when I had come to, I think yeah, the psilocybin was really my, my first stop, you know. But after a bunch of self help books that I read, I was like, all right, this is not sticking. I need, I need something more, you know, and that, you know, I, I came to my first time taking mushrooms and I was really like searching for something. I didn't know what. You know, I had, I was raised, um, Jewish, but my family, you know, we weren't, we weren't like going to synagogue. We weren't praying. Like, we'd celebrate Passover. But I was like, oh, ah, those stories. Who, uh, knows if they're real? I don't know. And so I, I didn't have, like, a belief system that I could really default to or I didn't have any sort of framework. I would say, forget belief system. A framework of like, what do I do in this experience? Where do I go? How do I deal with these emotions? And I would say psilocybin was kind of my first stop after those books and that first experience, you know, not. This was prior to the. The Chili Peppers concert, but this experience, the first one was not as. Was not as, uh, intense and scary, but it. It really showed me that there was more to what I was living for, you know, And I was, at the time I was, um, the president of my fraternity. I was studying business. You know, I was like, I'm gonna. My life. School aspiration was to be a hedge fund manager. And so I was preparing to, you know, go. Uh, I was working for a consulting company and I was going to work there after school. And, you know, after that experience of, um, you know, taking mushrooms, I was like, there's more. You know, there's more. I need, like, purpose in my life. I need something that isn't just for, uh, somebody else. Because, you know, when you experience tragedy, when you experience loss or hardship, as you guys know, it's, uh, you. You need. You need a sense of purpose to really get you through. Otherwise you're just like blowing like a, Like a. Something in the wind, A sail or whatever. A kite. And so, yeah, I, uh. Yeah, I don't know where I was going with this, but, uh. Yeah, I think what I, Where I was going with is, I think it does have a tremendous ability to really provide people with that awareness and to really examine your. Your sense of self. Um, but I. Yeah, I guess where I'm going is. My question to you is, um, because in my experience, it gave me, you know, a little bit of light of what to do next. Like, here. Here's your. Here's the next thing for you to do. But it wasn't, uh, it wasn't. It to me, that's all it did for me, you know, and I had to really m. Do the work to make that, you know, to. Yeah, for. For that. To really stick with my, uh. To really stick in my day to day life, you know. So I guess my experience, My question for you guys is how do you. How. How does. How does. How do you frame that when discussing the um, importance of facilitating experience and people making that choice to use psychedelics themselves.

Speaker B: I would start with saying that, you know, for us, like if you're, if this is your first time entering this, take the time to um, first of all ask yourself, why am I doing this? Like, I think it's important to realize that you're coming in with true intentions, true desires, that you're not just simply coming in to maybe be part of a conversation, but that there's rather ah, innate desire within to um, learn. I think that would be one aspect. And it's important to have that first um, experience be as, as wonderful as it could be. Right. With hardships or not or difficulties or not. But that at the end it is, it has, it turns out to be quite meaningful for you that the experience came with, with no traumas, no additional traumas to it as it, you know, you could dabble with this on your own and try to figure. But if you don't get the right environment, if you don't have the right settings and you don't have. Then you might just kind of block this out for the rest of your life because now you have this aspect of fear around it where people shouldn't look at this as fear. This is an intelligence that we're uh, accessing. It's an ability to biohack into oneself and it allows us to go into the healing or expansion modality in which you know, we desire. And from there there's tons of growth, there's tons of knowledge, access to information and data that um, that could really be quite significant in our lives. So there's just, I think it's really taking the first steps into this and we, we, we like to work with people coming in for the first time, creating the right initial environment for them, but also empowering them, teaching them, providing them the knowledge that they have the power to really do this on their own and in the right setting and that they, they don't have to, to really achieve this. But we, we, you know, work hard in giving a lot of education and empowerment along the way.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think that's, you know, really important because you know, if somebody, you think of somebody who's just on Wall street and that's what they've done their whole life, you know, and they're like, like this whole world is so for most people, you know, it's very, they don't know anything about it. And all they really know is what they might hear, see in the media or from maybe if they're lucky, one person who had. Had an experience that, you know, transformed them. Um, but yeah, I guess, yeah. Were you going to say something, Sarah?

Speaker C: Ah, I'll just add a bit that you're right that frequently people come because something grand happened in their life, whether, whether painful, sorrowful, hitting, uh, a, uh, depression or anxiety. And I also hope that people don't have to wait until they're in those places. Um, and there's also this incredible beauty that no matter the career that we choose, that you have the ability to see it as that. That you don't start. We don't start defining ourselves as a hedge fund manager and then that external validation and all that comes or all that is expected of a, uh, hedge fund manager, of a corporate person, of an athlete, we start putting masks on to become that person. And what's beautiful about these practices is to have that awareness of recognizing what it is. Is it a layer or is it a mask? Is this me or is this a means? Um, it's funny that even with athletes they'll say I literally, my career is a game. And so, um, unless you're of service mo. Almost everything is made up by humans. And it is in a way, especially in the finance. I went into finance. Humans made it up. And so to interact with it in that way and not define ourselves and continue to seek external validation, but having that awareness of what is important to me. And so we can still be a hedge fund manager and not be in it. We can be an observer of it.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That reminds me of Ram Dass a lot. I used to listen to a bunch of his stuff. Stuff I still do. I still love him. But. And I think that brings up a important question. You know, you're talking about identity and what should, what should our identity be in

Speaker C: your spirit?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think most people really lose their sense of identity, uh, and that's a big one because we, we live in a society that has so much programming, so much conditioning, so our identity is lost, uh, even as a children. Children because we, we're getting transferred that identity from our parents and that kind of transfer over to, you know, the, the, the distractions of the world and the indoctrinate of the world and all of these things. We slowly forget who we are. And this is one of the things that, um, these plant teachers provide. It gives us access to ourselves again, to our spirit, to um, our system of knowing who we really and truly are. And sometimes it happens, uh, gracefully through these ayahuasca or psilocybin ceremonies or it comes like a defibrillator and a jolt reminder through a BUFO 5 Meo DMT experience will give you a jolt of what this life is truly about. And you recognize that and come back to your identity again.

Speaker C: Yeah. And the sovereignty of our own consciousness to say, okay, let's look at why am I the way that I am? And many of the aspects of my characteristic. I look back and I'm very grateful. Thank you for that program. It was a beautiful program. Um, and program not being positive or negative, just we all are learning things and then we show up because of what we learned. And then some programs it was like, that was beneficial at the time, but it's no longer beneficial. So I'm going to control, alt, delete and then some programs that weren't beneficial and um, working through, okay, somebody else wrote that for me, for my life. Um, frequently that happens when we are trying to seek external validation or things like that and then start saying, who am I? Who am I? And um, hoping or walking the path of making that interesting and fun. Not dreaded. I don't know who I am. Um, and many people do come on our retreat with that feeling of, um, this could be from a career change or kids leaving the house or graduation and saying, I kind of lost myself. Okay, let's get to know ourselves. And then shift it to I'm gonna write this. I'm gonna write my life.

Speaker A: That's interesting. Is that so? Because Danny, you mentioned like your identity is in, you know, it's in spirit. And then Sarah, you're mentioning how it's. There's almost like this choice of what our identity becomes. And like what, like, what is that? How do those play together? You know, how. What is the. Is there room for both? And how do they. What is their relationship with one another?

Speaker C: Yeah. And what a fun path to figure out for the rest of our lives. Who is my spirit? When is it my ego talking to me or when is it my, my spirit talking to me? And I think that has led through the practices of um, getting in touch with our intuition. I love that science has moved from everything mental is chemistry, uh, to ah, your, your gut. Health is also important. And then also people are becoming more connected to themselves. There's a time where in corporate environments, for example, if somebody said we should do this, why? And if they said because I had a feeling, I have a feeling people would say, no, I need data. And so we have dismissed intuition. We have dismissed downloads from maybe our spirit. If you believe in God, God or however the universe works, um, those things have been dismissed. And to re. Get in touch with those things, I

Speaker B: would say that our um, BUFO 5 Meo experiences are an ego dissolution. Right. They dissolve that social construct of who you think you are, what your identity you thought you think you are. And all of a sudden that just dismantles itself. It falls apart and creates a little bit of like, oh, what am I now? Without that. And then you cross over and end up crossing over into a place of abundant love, source to God itself. And you reach that state and you find yourself in this state of bliss, of realizing, wow, my identity is a lot more right. Um, it gives you a clear um, aspect of understanding that unified field of uh, all of us being one. And that shifts our identity. We start to develop a different uh, ego construct from that point because we realize that we're all connected in one way or another. We're not just this ego construct that our society, from the moment we have been going to school and being programmed, has uh, uh, forced us to be in this little cage of thinking, this is who you are. And our spirit is in constant contact with us. It's more than ever wanting to make connection with you, with your vessel, with yourself. And it uh, comes through that gut, gut feeling. As Sarah says. Having that gut health is critically important because that's where you get the gut feelings from. And that gut feeling is coming from your higher self, it's coming from your spirit, it's allowing you to dictate where is the path, what is the purpose, what is the right decisions. And walk into this world with what I would call universal flow, which is really perceiving all the synchronicities and senses that the life is providing around you. But we get caught up so much in distractions that we lose the synchronicity. And then, you know, our path gets all convoluted all of a sudden. But when you're in synchronicity with life, then the flow is much easier.

Speaker A: Yeah. What do you think are some of those distractions that you know, keep people away from having that um, that connection to the spirit?

Speaker C: There's a million.

Speaker B: Yeah, the list is long. The world is designed around distract and it could be uh, entertainment at all sorts of different levels. Of course the doom scrolling and these little apparatuses is, I mean it's goes on and on. But in reality you just have to realize am I paying more attention externally or um, am I really looking internally? And that needs to be put on check every several minutes in Your default mode, you should be constantly coming back into, whoa, where am I? And if you realize, you're going to realize that the majority of the time you are looking for external entertainment, external distractions, rather than then pausing for the moment and looking internally within. And there lies where the key messages in life will bring you.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think choosing a life of intention. And so that's a. That's a way to show up daily so I can, um, come home, change clothes, go out to eat, and then while I'm at dinner with my loved one, I'm here and I'm there and I'm not fully listening or. For people that have kids, they come home and they had a tough day and their kids are playing and they're upset that the kids are making a mess, as opposed to saying, this is life, let's make a mess. There's this, um, a, uh, story about a student asking his Zen master what is enlightenment? And he said, when I'm hungry, I eat, and when I'm tired, I rest. And he goes, everyone does that. He's like, no, they don't. When they're hungry, they think of a thousand things while they're eating, and they don't taste their food. And so it's the purpose of saying, okay, I am going to go out to eat with a friend, and I'm going to. My intention of that interaction is going to be that my friend knows that I love them and that I'm here and I'm listening to them as opposed to checking my phone or doing this or doing the other things. And that can be a daily decision. When I wake up and run out the door, my intention. I didn't settle. And so life is happening and I am navigating, um, maybe more reactively than actively. And so it, it's getting to know ourselves and saying, I need 15 minutes every day before I leave the house to say, let's get centered. And so that we move in the way in which we want to move.

Speaker A: So how, how do we practice that awareness besides, you know, if someone, all right, they. They went on a retreat, they took, you know, antheogenic, uh, substances, and they, you know, they had an experience, they had an encounter, and. And now they're back on Wall Street. You know, it's like, how do they. How can they continuously to. How can they continually. To practice. Continuously practice, you know, that, that awareness?

Speaker C: Uh, yeah. First it's making the decision to do that. It's to say, I am going to live a life more consciously and in more awareness. And at first we will get off and we might not notice it for two days. And then it takes a day and then it takes an hour. Um, also some people are into this path and they start spiritually bypassing emotions and saying, I never get angry. And so it's also an awareness that anger has a purpose and it's right below energy. So luckily we have the energy to activate. But it's am I conscious and aware to act and not react to, um, have conversations and that are beneficial to have conversations from our heart. So it's a commitment to yourself. And then we each make those designations of how does this work for me? And so for me it might mean every hour for a week. I need to set my alarm and say, am I censored? Am I in a space of where I'm judging people or being negative? If negativity is something I'm working on, then I start making the parameters for myself to practice, to practice, practice being positive over and over until it's who I am.

Speaker B: I would add to that, um, two words, uh, presence and intention. I think those are the daily things that one we need to have regardless of what it is. And I know sometimes it's really hard when you haven't dedicated the time for some inner work or self actualization. And this is the beautiful thing about coming to maybe our retreat or dabbling into the world of uh, these sacred plant medicines. But when you're able to move into the self actualization and awareness of your life, you're able to feel what it feels, what deep meditation could feel like. Not everyone has the time to go deep into the practice, but um, much less will you ever have the sensation or the feeling of what that feels like. And so, um, I know Sarah doesn't like when I use the word of cheat or shortcuts, but this is exactly what these, uh, plant medicines do. They provide a level of a, uh, cheat and a shortcut to get to a point where you now know how it feels to get there. And of course practice, once you have that level of connection with that feeling, then the practice is of course the work that you're going to do. And it's a lot easier when you know when you've reached to that feeling. Without it, it could be you could easily sidetrack and get lost in so many different directions. But when that feeling comes in and you know exactly how that feels, then that's the path you can learn to take every day by either meditating, doing yoga, uh, breath work, there's different modalities that help you to connect again to that feeling.

Speaker C: Our Ayahuasca retreats are called the guidance side because we are trying to teach people that you don't need this continuously. The goal is to have these experiences, learn something, and then have it in our normal daily lives. We don't have to keep coming back. We don't need something outside of ourselves.

Speaker A: M. Yeah, yeah, that's great. And, uh, Danny, what you were saying, too, reminds me. It made me think of the Alan Watts quote when he says, like, beware of unearned wisdom. And, uh, like, that's where. That's what I think. When I think back to, like, going to the Chili Peppers concert, and we're like, all right, we're going to take a bunch of mushrooms and it'll be fun. And then it's like, whoa, we're in this place now where it's. Now I'm confronted with, like, my deepest childhood trauma, and I'm, like, stuck in this place with, like, my. With my friend who is just like. We're just kind of casual friends, but now we're, like, confronting each other's, like, deep childhood trauma in a random hotel in D.C. and, like, what is going on and how do we get out? And, uh. So I love how you guys are, you know, stewarding this responsibility with care. You know, with care. And, um. Yeah, with a heart of really shepherding and serving your clients and. Because I think that that is ra. You know, like, I used to prior I live in Connecticut, but before that I lived in Austin. And I mean, everyone in their mom there has been on, like, an Ayahuasca retreat. And not everybody's experience. Most experiences aren't, you know, this, um. You know, not this, uh. Intentful. Intentful. Yeah. Um, and. Yeah, and I. And I've known people, and my wife has. She's had experiences on dmt and she's used to hang out in circles where people would, you know, do these things weekly or bi weekly. And it's like. It gets to a point where it's like, is this really. Are you really using this to, you know, to your. For your own development and to really connect with your. Your spirit? Or are you, um. Or are you using it as an escape or chasing the high of the experience?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so, yeah, I've. I've. We're very aware of, you know, the dark shadow side of this. And I think, you know, you're. You're right to. To encourage people, too. It's like, you're not supposed to need this your whole Life, you know. And I would also ask you guys, like what, like you mentioned a little bit about community, but what is like how do you guys focus on your own community? You know, you're doing a lot of this work and I'm, I'm sure you're around a lot of things that can be uh, challenging, you know, challenging encounters. But so like, what do you, like, how do you guys build community where you are and what do you look for?

Speaker B: Yeah, I want to uh, start by just correcting a word you said when you mentioned your clients. And um, it's a term we don't use, uh, because uh, you know, guess is the word we use. And guests, they come and they go. A client is something that you've got someone hooked for, you know, to have to come back. So we really enjoy the word of guests, uh, in this.

Speaker C: And then they become our community and

Speaker B: then they become from guests, then they become our alumni. And that alumni group is really our community amongst all everyone else that is in this um, environment. Right. Because we are, it's a separate growing community. It's still very, you know, isolated and small in the overall aspect of, I don't know, the 8 billion people, so they say on this planet. But we, we're still a small and fast growing community. So it could feel very isolated when you come in and do this kind of transformative work work and all of a sudden the veil has been lifted and you're able to like, wow, I'm um, now I'm realizing, witnessing the world in a way that I wasn't seeing it before. So you're starting to see through the illusion, um, that you've been programmed or deceived to be. And then of course it could feel quite lonely out there when you, when you're, you know, just all of a sudden just not relating the same way with the things that you're relating before. So that community is really critical and important for us.

Speaker C: Us.

Speaker B: And a community starts with our small group retreats because that's um, one thing that we pride ourselves on is really creating small intimate settings. These are just a group of average 10 people that come together in a setting that um, are very well curated. Everyone goes through a very important screening process to making sure not everyone gets invited. But if you get invited, that community starts right there. It starts with that small group that create a major bond with themselves. And that bond is bond that's for life because you're doing, doing something that is just spectacular. Um, and of course that community for us over the years has grown into the thousands. And we're really happy to kind of be, um, holding space for everyone that's coming across the board on this.

Speaker C: If you're open, I'd like to share just a fun thought, um, of the path to 3 grams of red Hot Chili Peppers. That would be amazing. And so people frequently talk about set and setting. And some people believe that set and setting need to be. Be, uh, great in order to have, um, to show up for a psychedelic experience. And that isn't true. So set is our mindset. If our mindset is very strong, our. Our setting can be more open. And I'll give some examples if our mindset is, um. For example, maybe we are experiencing a lower. A compression, um, a bit of anxiety. So if our setting is not very strong, then our set needs. Let me say that again. If our mindset, um, is needing some attention, then our setting needs to be very strong. And so that would be a retreat, for example. And so we don't need to have a perfect mindset in order to experience psychedelics. But then our setting needs to be strong. Strong. So let's say we take a setting of a Red Hot chili peppers concert. 3 grams of mushrooms can be incredible. However, if you're there with a strange. Like, uh, you mentioned not a really close friend, but somebody you knew, and all of a sudden you're faced with these things, then it starts getting wonky. And so I think the path to the three grams of Red Hot Chili Peppers would be one in which you say, okay, let's work with one gram in a safe setting. Let's work with one and a half gram on a nature wall talk. Let's work with this and work with it. And then you'll get to the point where you will go to a Red Hot chili peppers with 3 grams with somebody and then say it starts getting wonky. You can even go, I'm gonna stand right next to you and not talk. And now he knows I got a little wonky. And this is an interesting thing that I can look at not with fear, but curiosity. And that's how we get to you going to a Red Hot Chili Peppers with three grams.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, yeah, that's interesting too, because I've, you know, after that experience, um, and I wouldn't say it was from that experience, but I would say that those two experiences that I had of using, uh, psilocybin led me to, you know, sparked me on this search, you know, the search for truth. And so because. Because from there I was like, there's no way that it's like, it's not going to be me doing mushrooms every weekend. Like that's just like not sustainable and, or at least three grams like that. And so for me that was really the start of like searching for something deeper, you know. And you know, I got, I'm, I'm, I'm a big reader and I got very much into reading um, you know, different Buddhist texts, different Hindu texts, uh, reading a bunch of Ram Dass, you know, reading different like spiritual traditions and really trying to understand like what, like what is it about um, you know, these spiritual paths that allow people to, you know, get to this state where they're not doing drugs all the time, you know, and they're um. Yeah. And like what is a sustainable way to actually to feel good about my life? You know, like, that's really what I was searching for and really looking for purpose and for meaning in my life and a way to a framework that would allow me to navigate that. And so I don't know how I feel about psychedelics now is. I don't. I would never say never, you know, but I would say that like I found, I found what I was looking for, you know. And like, believe you me, like, I still get very angry. I'm still very impatient. I still have uh, plenty of you know, inner, inner work to do myself. Um, and. But uh, I would say that I would found, found what I found what I was looking for. And uh. Yeah, yeah, that's all so good.

Speaker B: I love it. Although, you know, and that's finding what it is and finding that peace uh, of mind and being in that state, uh, is, is beautiful. The, the other aspects around uh, these antigenic plant teachers is the expansive side where you're kind of stepping into this for that biohacking expansion aspect of it where you can, can gain an enormous amount of insight. You're now able to tap into the aether of where all the great minds, all the artists and singers, where all the music comes, everything that you can come and access, we all have access to. And that's something we've been um, working a lot in the aspects of expansion. Uh, within our retreats.

Speaker C: I m mentioned the athlete who discovered my career is literally called a game. That doesn't mean he quits playing. That means that he has a different awareness in the way in which he shows up. Uh, that means that if he loses a game he doesn't think he's any less worthy. It means that when he is on the highest high he is sharing. And when he's on a low. He is aware.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, it's the awareness or finding the flow, flying, the flow state where you are in that perfect flow state that everything works out, accessible to all of us, perfectly in every way. And that. That's a heightened state of awareness and consciousness. That's some of the benefits of these things.

Speaker A: Do you think that these heightened states or do you think that these, uh, substances are required to achieve those states?

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Not at all. At all. These are just shortcuts, uh, and paths. And there's many ways to finding yourself. Um, Um. I love the practice of breath work. For instance, uh, fasting, um, kirtan, which is with music and mantra. There's many ways to enter into a meditative state. It's just really hard when you're, you know, if you haven't really developed your practice yet, it could take a while. And most people quit, you know, early on in the beginning phase of it all. Even midway, they'll just say, you know, I just. I'm not getting there. So it's disheartening for most people. And that's why these shortcuts or teachers here can allow you to get access to that, you know, right fast to the end of that.

Speaker C: That's where I do resonate with Danny, calling it, uh, a shortcut or a cheat. We can get, uh, a perspective or awareness on something that maybe would have taken me much longer to get it in my normal level of consciousness. But, um, even through a practice of contemplation, I'm going to contemplate, I'm going to ask the question from the Greeks and the. And the Romans of who am I? Who am I? That you can have a contemplative practice and recognition of, okay, here's how I show up in certain ways. Do want to keep doing that and contemplate that. So each day, contemplate your day. How did you show up? Where are you proud? Where would you like to do it a little bit different and develop that discipline and the agreement with yourself that you're going to walk that path?

Speaker B: Yeah. Let's not forget that, you know, uh, the life that we're all in, in this world is. Is highly full of distractions. So it's really tough sometimes to really kind of immerse yourself in oneself. So. Ah, definitely things to be aware about. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. And I think it really. That's where it, you know, also becomes a daily practice of, um. Yeah. Of not only discipline but also of surrender, you know, and, you know, for me, that practice looks like, asking God, like, help me to. Help me to not do these things that I find myself doing, you know, help me, give me the strength and. Because, you know, like, for me, that's when I feel, when I feel disconnected, you know, from, from what I believe to be, you know, God and the Holy Spirit. And like, when I, When I'm doing things, when I'm indulging in things or if I'm looking at things that I shouldn't be looking at, and then I, and, And then I can feel disconnected. And then for me, that is, like, that's my indicator to, you know, like, I need to go, I need to pray, I need to. I need to, you know, get back, get back in the house of God and not from a place of, like, guilt, you know, um, because, like, I don't have that much baggage of like, people that are, you know, grew up and they have that, you know, they say Catholic guilt, but, you know, still, like, I, like, I want to get back into your presence, you know, back into that feeling. And it really, you know, it really is a daily thing and it's, uh, it's never ending, you know, as long as we're in the flesh. And uh. Yeah, but it's. Yeah, I've, I've, yeah, I've, uh, I've really enjoyed your, you know, hearing your guys story, hearing your perspective, I think most importantly on how you, um, how you show up in this work and, and how you show up in, in serving people. And I, Yeah, I've, I've really enjoyed this conversation. And if, um, yeah, if you guys don't have any other questions, we can, uh, we can just wrap it up.

Speaker C: Yeah, um, I can tell from halfway around the world that you're a genuine and authentic human being. And so thank you for sharing the time and your vi. Also been a joy for us. Thank you.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm also really, uh, excited to kind of witness your path of purpose. So the fact that you've initiated this podcast is, is your, uh, act of service to others. So thank you for that.

Speaker C: Thank you for your work.

Speaker A: Appreciate it. Awesome. All right, well, I'll end it here.