Can Ayahuasca Be Christian? - Dr. Kyra Bobinet's Spiritual Journey | EP. 29

Speaker A: What is up? Um, you guys, welcome back to another episode of Path of Purpose, where we explore how people find meaning in their work and in their beliefs. Today I'm joined by Dr. Kyra Babinette, who is a physician, a neuroscientist, as well as a CEO at Fresh Dry. We talk about what healing really means, and we get into her personal journey through faith, um, spirituality beyond religion, spiritual pride, and learning to love individuals with different beliefs than ourselves. Um, there's even a humbling moment mid chat. Uh, you'll catch it where I'm checked for being prideful and assumptive. Um, but I'm really excited about, uh, this episode. I'm really excited to share with you guys. And, uh, yeah, it starts off with Dr. Bobinet talking about, um, some of her experiences with ayahuasca, as well as her sponsoring psychedelic therapy for her team. So, uh, it's a rich one. I hope you guys enjoy it and be blessed.

Speaker B: All right, so I'll pick it back up on what I was saying about. Yeah, so it's. It's on purpose that it is medically certified and licensed. And that's really important to me because these are medications and they are not recreational drugs. That's where in the history of their use, they have been, you know, abused and also gotten people in trouble, you know, and even at that, it needs to be supervised in a clinically meaningful way, meaning that we're not, uh, putting people at risk, we're not being macho with it, you know, that kind of thing. So this medicine is very strong and in the indigenous use of it, oftentimes has a name, uh, or a nickname of the, um, death vine, meaning that you get to experience, um, the death of your ego, you know, and that does all kinds of things to people because whatever's underneath that, whatever you've been pushing down, avoiding or even desiring, you know, um, that has, uh, your heart has been kind of locked down around will come out, you know, and they have a saying there at this retreat center, like, what's coming is going like, you know, have heart. Because even if something really terrible, you see something terrible, you know, regrets or, um, you know, shame or, or any of those kinds of things or trauma. Um, first of all, you have kind of a distance from it, uh, so you don't personalize it. Your ego is kind of parked. So you can tolerate it. You can tolerate looking at it, which in normal conscious waking life would be way too hot to touch. It'd be all your defenses would just lock down and you'd shut down. So. So you're able to handle it in that way and see and really be shown things that maybe, you know, are really medicinal for you. And at the same time, you know, it is very, very personal. And I don't believe in people just broadcasting their experiences. So when people from my company have gone, we just kind of have a check in at the end. Like, you know, take care of yourself. Like, here's how to be. Now that your eyes were open in this way, here's how to reintegrate into the daily life. Because daily life, you're not going to have that experience. You're going to. But you're also not going to go back to who you were. So how do you. How do you fall forward? How do you. How do you move forward and weave it together so that overall your health notches up? And I've seen that every single time where somebody just gets more clear about their life and they get less burdened by the past.

Speaker A: Did you have a. Did you have an experience that led you to wanting to, to do this for the people that work for you?

Speaker B: Well, I accidentally. My husband and I accidentally went to an ayahuasca retreat because we had bid on this trip to Costa Rica. He always wanted to go to Costa Rica. And when he was leaving his company to come work for me at my company, Fresh, dry, um, you know, he's like, I want to travel the world. And for four months. And I was thinking in my head, I was like, if we do that, there's going to be no startup at the end of four months. So we gotta, like, pace ourselves. But we went to this fundraiser for this Tibetan aid project. So I, um, was just like, bidding on this one Costa Rican trip. It didn't say anything about plant medicine whatsoever. It was just like, you know, vegetarian food, organic food, there's a pool, there's massage, um, colon hydrotherapy, which I had never done, which is very, very painful. Um, all these things that were kind of like wellness, you know. And, um. And so I was like, great. Like, we'll do that. And it wasn't until right before we got on the plane that we actually learned that plant medicine was an option. But I thought, okay, well, you know, I've been tracking this for 20 years because my mother, who's Ojibwe and a boarding school survivor, if you know what that is, um, she has major ptsd. And so, uh, from the time I was a medical student and worked with veterans, um, from the Vietnam War and how traumatized they Were and how terrible the PTSD symptoms are. They're so involuntary, and it's just torturing these poor people, including my mother. So I'd always tracked, you know, things like ayahuasca that, you know, seem to be different, but from a neuroscience perspective made sense. Because what they do is you have this, like, you know, neurons that fire together, wire together. You heard that term. Um, you have this, like, thick, rigid neural network that encodes when you have trauma. It's like you have this adrenaline release and that acts like superglue and kind of glues this. This active wire together. And then that's where all your symptoms come from. And so all I knew was that these medicines, you know, some of the psychedelic medicines were able to kind of disassociate those really glued together parts so that you had a chance to be free, so that you had a chance to rewire those parts to other healthier parts. It's a really simple way of putting it. But that was my mental model. So I was, I was. I was all for it for other people, but I had no interest in doing it myself. And so we get on the plane and I asked my husband, I was like, hey, are you gonna try the ayahuasca thing? And he goes, he goes, yeah, like, I'm really depressed and anxious these days. I would really like to do that. And I guess they offered like four months or four. Sorry, four. Four days back to back, four ceremonies. And he said, what about you? And I said, uh, like, I'm good, you know, I don't. I don't need that, you know, because I. Long term meditator, you know, never had ptsd really, that I thought. I didn't. I was like, fine, you know, And I just come off my annual, uh, solo camp, my vision quest that I've done for my whole life. And so I felt really intact and really spiritually whole and that I didn't need anything. And so I. But I get there and I realize, like, it's not just some jeep that pulls up to the retreat center and says, hey, anybody want to go do ayahuasca? It was the entire focus of the entire retreat center. Um, and once I saw that, I was like, oh, gosh, like, you know, synchronicity. I believe I know at this point in my life when God corners me, you know, I know when I am absolutely confronted with something that I am terrified to do, but I know is the way forward, you know, the way through is the way forward. So I, you know, bravely, um, because I Didn't want to do it because I don't like losing control of my mind. You know, in college when everybody was binge drinking, I tried to binge drink, but at some point as I was drinking alcohol, I would be like pretending to be more and more sober instead of getting super, you know, sloppy drunk. Um, because I didn't like the feeling of being out of control of my senses. And I didn't want anybody to see me that way because then they might think I'm vulnerable, to attack me or compromise me in some way. So I just wanted to kind of pretend. So that was like my worst nightmare was to lose, you know, control of my ego.

Speaker A: So how to go?

Speaker B: How'd it go? Well, you know, there's this idea in the psychedelic circles, uh, largely called, like, you know, the trip report, you know, where people will tell you their experience. I don't believe in that so much. I do, I do share some in the book only because I want the reader to understand, like, the legitimacy, credibility, and be able to track the, the sort of like self awareness as well as the healing qualities of how. It is a medicine. Just like any medicine, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's a real medicine, it's not a drug, it's not for recreational purposes, and brought me to my knees in terms of understanding my family history, the, the, the genocide I come from, the trauma that has happened in my family line, um, and the compassion. I just felt like I had complete compassion for myself and everybody in my family lineage going all the way up. No matter what horrible decisions people made or what they endured, what horrible things they endured, I could just watch it all and really take that in and, and it completed a part of me that was just so disconnected before.

Speaker A: M. Wow. Did, did that experience alter your beliefs about the nature of reality?

Speaker B: Absolutely. I've always loved the movie the Matrix. Um, ever since it came out, it was, you know, for sure, um, a metaphor that has just like rippled out over, you know, however many years. It's been 25 years or something since it came out. And I. But I never really understood what Buddhists or meditative traditions call the, the illusion of reality. You know, you're in the illusion or in the Matrix. You're in the Matrix and how this life is like, because it feels pretty darn painful and pretty darn sensory. And so it's really quite something to perceive, to be able to see through the veil into the nature of reality. And even with all of the sit time that I've done, meditation Wise prayer, you know, deep wilderness, um, meditation and, uh, cold water therapies and, you know, the plant medicine path, all of those things. Um, hypnosis. What else? Hypnosis, psychotherapy, like all of it. Right. Uh, so many retreats. And I would say that I've, I've gotten a sense of the true nature of illusion probably a handful of times in my life. It's not what I understand on an everyday basis, usually my conceptual mind. And for those of you who have had this experience where you get just like a little bit of freedom and then you'll have a thought like, oh, I have free. And then, you know, and then you just reform, you know, into this very tangible, you know, very illusory being. Right. So. So I do think that we, we live in a time when people are really trying, I think in many ways, especially in, in psychedelic therapy kind of, uh, circles, to try to understand what is illusion versus what is reality and what can we even call reality, you know, and that's a really interesting conversation that m. You know, a lot of people are better at it than me, but, um, yeah, that's where I think we all need to go.

Speaker A: How did that experience impact your spiritual practices afterwards?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's a couple phases. One was just like fascination, you know, the first phase was just like, I can't believe it. Just, it felt like my eyes had been like completely wiped out of scales and mud and everything else. And I was really feeling like, oh, uh, wait, this life is not what I thought. But then the second phase is how does that relate to who I already am? Because I'm not going to wholesale, become a different person. But I am waking up, I am opening up my heart and my mind to, uh, possibilities about this life that before I was so afraid of either not trusting myself or not trusting others or not trusting the universe to bring me to. And I, I have to say, I have a skeptical scientific ear sometimes and, and I would hear people say things and I'm the first person to say woo woo. That's woo woo. That's woo woo too. You know, just super skeptical. Unless I can kind of see some sort of, some sort of thread to hard sciences or hard neuroscience, I get really resistant. Uh, but in this second phase, I was like, okay, I'm a western scientist, but I'm also an indigenous woman, you know, mixed race woman. I care very much about, you know, life and vibrancy on this planet, but I also am a pragmatist. And I'm also like, you know, I just Think everybody has a good point, you know, no matter who they are, um, they have something right about how they're seeing the world. And so I think the third phase was just like I'm not better than anybody, but I am very dedicated to continuing to awaken in whatever means and modality that that exists out there as long as I'm being, you know, safe and, and um, you know, it's justified. And I've never been somebody who had an addictive personality except maybe food. There's a little bit of food in there, um, but that fast food that was coming out of Oklahoma. I was a fast food junkie and for many years thereafter, uh, that was my shame. And um, but I, but I don't have that problem when it comes to substances or you know, thrill seeking or experiences. I'm kind of plain and timid and um, conservative about those kinds of things. So I could trust myself to really explore, you know, new forms of spirituality that yeah, some work, some don't. And it's really about, you know, finding wisdom and collecting like a, like a bee on pollen on their legs, like collecting wisdom as you go through the world and find new wisdoms and new teachings and new teachers even.

Speaker A: M. It sounds like from what you're saying, like the two things that I'm hearing are humility and compassion.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think humility is a really interesting concept, isn't it? Because for the longest time I equated humility with being a, ah, healthy dose of self. Self loathing or worthlessness. I had to kind of come with that because I didn't really know what humility was because humility with respect to what, you know, what, what are we humble to? And it took me a while to like make it a reality that like what I am humble to is the divine intelligence m The great mystery that I cannot understand with my little brain here or even my beyond brain here. But it, it defies concepts. And so we talk about it, we try our best to like compare notes with each other. Like are you seeing this? Or how do you think of that? Mhm. Like I think that's the best we can do is just be really in a very healthy dialogue about how we're each understanding this world and learn from each other and then compassion. You know what my, one of my teachers was what's called a Zogchen Buddhist where it's like they're very, they deal with the kind of esoteric aspect Buddhist and it's this very. I uh, think it's only for really super smart People. So he's way smarter than me.

Speaker A: So not for everyone.

Speaker B: Not for me. Not. I didn't get it. I. I'm. I'm more like in the compassion bodhisattva. Like, that makes sense to me.

Speaker A: You're the doctor, though, serving others. Understand this.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, man. Like, there's philosophy and philosophers that I know. When I'm hearing them, I'm like, it just puts my brain in a pretzel. Um, because it's not the way I think or the way I understand life, but I acknowledge in full respect to where they're at, you know, in that area, I'm not there. Um, but I'm somewhere different. And I like where I am. You know, I understand compassion. I understand service, uh, leadership. I understand, you know, what's called karma yoga, which is like a path of serving others as your yoga, as. As your way of life and way of learning. And so, yeah, compassion. He said. He said, you know, wisdom and compassion are like two different ends of the spectrum. If you have too much wisdom but no compassion, then somebody in front of you falls down and you're just indifferent. Like, poor you, sucks to be you. And you walk on, right, because there's nothing to do with you, but you're seeing it like that's, you know, that's a terrible thing to happen to that person. But you don't feel anything. On the other end of the spectrum, and this is where I tend to imbalance in my past, is to be too compassionate and not wise. You can become too sentimental, you know, like, I'll take you home and I'll. You know, and then I'll become codependent with you, and I'll. You don't have to do a thing. I'll just do it all for you. So that is more where I was trained to be as a girl, uh, growing up by my mother, my family, taking care of other people, and, you know, really thinking of myself as, like, just if I wasn't doing for them, if I wasn't producing for them or for other people, then I didn't have a, uh, lot of worth, you know, just intrinsically, you know. So I think. I think finding that balance is really just, uh, a life goal, you know, it's a life practice.

Speaker A: Yeah. Do. Do you feel that, like, along the way of having your heart open and being compassionate, there were times that you wanted to close it off because it felt like you didn't? Uh. Yeah. Because it could have hurt you or something.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think anybody who is on this path of their truth is going to have their heart broken repeatedly. Repeatedly. I don't. And throughout your life and, and it's, that's the hardest thing to continue to put yourself out there and to continue to walk and be brave and have your heart crushed. I have a friend, I have a friend who is. She really wants to have a family and she had a terrible, terrible breakup. I mean her, she was um, in a relationship where it went terribly wrong and he was very mentally unwell and so she's getting on in years and her window of fertility is now upon her, you know, and, and you know, she doesn't know. She's terrified. She doesn't know if it's going to work out. But um, I believe in her because I believe that what I see is that she's shedding anything that was like distracting and she's getting more and more focused and more and more discerning about what she needs. And I've observed many, many people on this path and as, as long as they're willing to be completely honest with themselves about what's happening and what's next for them, then they typically get to where they need to go. You know, it's only when we are kidding ourselves or avoiding and we'll talk about that part of the brain, it's like encodes avoidance. You know, as long as we're handling that part of the brain then the right thing kind of comes towards us. That's how I think about it.

Speaker A: I'm really curious too. In the book you mentioned you grew up going to church and I saw there's a few um, Bible verses that you sprinkled in. What would you say, how would you describe your current relationship with God?

Speaker B: Celebrate all people who are, I see them as brothers and sisters and relatives who are trying to follow their concept of God, trying to be a good person because they have a higher power that they are answering to in their own heart in, in their own way, you know. And I have coming out of Oklahoma and coming to San Francisco As a 24 year old, I was very narrow minded, I should say. I was scared of people who were different or who had very like what I think were like really crazy wacky lifestyles. And I came into contact with everything and it really stretched my comfort zone um, in a big way. Plus I had this like spiritual awakening when my first year in medical school. So I was just, I was just like burst open and I felt that I was being led to really be open minded, open hearted about all the different forms that takes um, in people and to honor them and to really honor their path and respect their path. Um, as long as they're not, you know, have some belief that I need to die because of their path, because of their idea of God, Um, I really respect it. And I will forever be grateful to my little tiny church community who made me feel important in a time, in a life where I was really struggling with worthlessness and depression and, you know, family strife at home. And it was, it was the church camps in the summer that kind of shored me up and fed my spirit, you know, and the songs and I mean, just. Yeah, it makes me tear up. Like, I really, I really honor those paths.

Speaker A: M. So where, where along your journey did you, uh, where did you feel that that wasn't the path that you wanted to take?

Speaker B: I feel like I always take that path, but that the idea of path is so much bigger and broader and thicker than what I used to believe. M. The first thing that happened when I had my spiritual awakening is that I felt, I felt led to, um, and instructed to read sacred texts from all world religions.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And I had not. I was a science major. I never had like a world religion class or anything like that in college. So this is my first foray. And I could really, even though it wasn't like my preferred way of languaging it, I, uh, could really see beauty in other people's paths or other people's religions. And that's, that's even before you get down to like individual spirit spirituality. Right. Because there's, there's a religion which is like, kind of like a, A compromise for each individual to like, join forces into what is, what is called a religion. But if you, if you individually, um, interviewed and I'm sure you do and really understood deeply how people believe and why they believe with it, it's, it's so specific to the person. Yeah.

Speaker A: So yeah. Going back to you though, was. Was there a specific sort of spot where you were like, okay, this doesn't, there's something here that doesn't feel like the truth to me.

Speaker B: Ah. Uh, that's a. I think if you get like really literal and up close there can be some crispy edges.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That don't really jive well with each other. You know, And I've always wondered, and I don't know, and I may not know in this life ever, um, how that came to be because I do believe that even though things are divinely channeled right. Through a human being that wrote things down or whatever, however the Origin story of these texts come that there's always just like even the slightest bit of humanness in there, you know, like just a little distortion field or whatever. Like just. Just seeing my brain on ayahuasca, like there's. There's still an observing ego, even though it's kind of pushed to the side. It's not center like normally it is. Um, and so I think it might be something like that where there's just like a little bit of like, bias. And in behavioral science, it's all about bias. All of our behaviors, all of our perceptions are so fraught with bias because our brains are going through this impossible world. Our brains are being driven through this impossible amount of information, amount of diverse thoughts, you know, and again, the mystery that we can never quite know for sure. And those who, those who cling to. I know for sure. I know this for sure. Like, they're the most insecure of anybody in my experience. You know, they're the ones that are so afraid of letting go of the side of the riverbank, you know, that they're just going to get consumed by everybody else, Everybody else's beliefs. And I don't blame them. That's just, that's just what they need to do for right now. Um, and. And so I don't, I don't blame them or judge them, but they, but they're just doing it out of fear.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So do you think that. Yeah, I guess my question would be then, if there are, like, when referring to the Bible, if in your words, you said there were certain things that kind of discredit one another, do you think that, do you think that one must believe that everything in the Bible is word for word, the word of God, in order to have faith in Christ?

Speaker B: I. The way I see it, and I didn't say that. What did you say? You said that, you know, there's some things in there that are not. I don't know. I was just saying I wonder where. What I know for sure is that we as human brains are very, very biased. And that has, like, I can't imagine people who were alive 2500 years ago were not also biased. Right. So first principles, thinking. That's a principle, right, that I use to go, okay, so maybe some of this, this, um, you know, irreconcilable differences between different religions has to do with that. I can, I can, I could get down with like that hypothesis. I don't know how to. How one would test that, but that, that could explain, you know, some of what we're seeing here that is unnecessary, uh, unnecessary arguments, you know, like I don't think it needs to be an argument because if you're walking your path and you get something out of this passage or that book or that chapter or whatever you are reading.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: That inspires that, that, that resonates with you, then there's something to trust there about your inner wisdom waking up and saying ah. It's ah, just like if you meet a person, you're like that person. I. Mhm. Want to get to know that person. I want to be close to that person, I want to follow that person. Whatever the case may be. There's something that you're, that you're intuiting there that's like a little sparkle in you. And who cares, you know, like who cares if somebody else sees it the exact same way and, and tells you that you have to read word for word and believe every single one of those words and the word orders and never believe that, you know, maybe somebody, you know, translated it from uh, Greek or where it went or Latin in a certain way using their own interpretation of English. And English was different back then. Like you can ignore all that because it's absolutely the word of God, word for word.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I don't know. There's, yeah, there's so many camps. Right. Of different people and it doesn't, it's not interesting to me. It doesn't matter whether you're a literalist or whatever. What matters to me is how are you applying that? How is that getting you up in the morning? How is that causing you to treat others? How is that causing you to grow? Because if, if all of those things are in the negative side of things, then maybe you need something, maybe you need to iterate on that a little bit and see what else might help you.

Speaker A: Yeah. What do you believe to be true about Jesus?

Speaker B: Uh, you know, I haven't revisited my mental model of Jesus since my early, early uh, days. Jesus to me is an incarnation of love, M and compassion and wisdom.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And an example and a role model.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And humility, um, and all these things. So I don't feel like I have to weigh in beyond that because that's enough for a lifetime to try to understand and try to follow and, and try to emulate. I'm about to go down to um, help a dear mentor, elder, teacher of mine for 30 years who is, he was a, he's a retired, um, pastor, preacher and teacher and um, chaplain for a private Christian high school. And the best Teacher I've ever seen. And he is literally the closest thing to what I imagine Jesus Christ to behave like and to be like of any human being I've ever met. And, and he is the most accepting human being. He can be around anybody and be in wisdom and be in compassion and, and be, uh, loving towards them, but also teach them. Because there's almost like a sternness there, you know, like when Jesus would kind of school those skeptics or people who were trying to trick him or whatever. Like he would kind of, you know, be like, you know, just really outsmart them or outmaneuver them, you know, in so many ways, you know. So my friend Curtis is like that, you know, and he's had me. Go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker A: No, you go ahead.

Speaker B: Oh, he's having cancer, colon cancer, surgery, you know, so I'm going down to care for him. He lost his wife a couple years ago and doesn't really have a lot of people to play the medical advocacy role. So I'm volunteering for that because he's a national treasure, honestly.

Speaker A: M M. Wow. Do you think that there is a difference between organized religion as kind of like a concept versus having a relationship with Christ?

Speaker B: Yeah, I, I see a big difference there. You know, I used to. It used to be unnerving to me. Like when I, when I, when I had the notion that, like, in order to be Christian, I had to go to a particular building every Sunday and be there and do a certain thing. Um, and it kind of freaked me out if somebody was like a good person, but they didn't do that, know, like, I couldn't handle that. That was my very narrow definition of whether you were okay as a human being at that time. I've, since. I've, since I would say, expanded my definition of people who are living good lives and, and who are on the path, you know, of love and that they don't. It doesn't need to have certain labels. It doesn't need to have certain, um, performative aspects to it. I'll say. And so I think it's very much, you know, ah, like a Venn diagram. There's. There's people who. There's a bunch of people who are very. Walking a very sacred and holy life. And then there's a bunch of people who are in religion trying their best to understand what that means and try and, you know, kind of ups and downs, but they're mostly not doing it. They might be, like, hypocritical. And by the way, let's talk about Hypocrisy in a second because I don't think it's a bad thing. And then there's, then there's this, uh, Venn diagram where spirituality and religion work together for certain people for a certain either, you know, a reason, a season or a lifetime. Like, you don't know what that is, you know.

Speaker A: What do you mean by that?

Speaker B: What I mean is that I, I'm old enough where I've seen people start out really like, attached, uh, to the form factor of church or, or the Bible or whatever. And then it's almost like they, they, as they develop, certain people feel like they want to express that in music or some other way, you know, and so they, that at some point, for some people, it seems that the religious, the religious institutional edicts feel limiting for them. M. And you know, because Jesus didn't like, you know, have a religion.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, his religion was nature. If you look at what he really did to m. Commune with God, he would just go out and fast and be in the wilderness and trust God to take care of him.

Speaker A: Yeah, I, he was, yeah, he was, he was a Jewish rabbi. Um, but yes, I, I agree with the part where he was like. It sounds like what you're trying to say is that he's not, he wasn't out here like, trying to create a,

Speaker B: he wasn't trying to promoting movement.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: He wasn't promoting Judaism.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: In that way. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. The Pharisees. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm, I, I, Yeah, I bring this up too because I, I was raised, I was raised Jewish and I did not, I never like, prayed or anything growing up. And then after that experience of, of losing my dad, um, I was, that was kind of the spark, the start of a spiritual journey for me and searching for truth and uh, for, for me in that time of, of losing my dad, I, I didn't really have, I didn't pray or anything. And I was really into like self help and, and journaling outlet that I was able to express myself. I was also, I didn't, I didn't surround myself with people that I felt like I could like, be vulnerable with. Honestly, for me, that was, that was, that was hell. And coming out of that, I was searching for something, a way out, a, A framework, something just to help me to, to live a more fruitful life. Um, and then I started to do, uh, this master's program in consciousness studies and spirituality and, and search for, for the truth. Um, and a part of that program was looking at a bunch of different spiritual traditions through the lens of Western psychology. And for some reason in uh, in my readings, like Jesus kept coming up, right? Like I'd read about him in, in the, the Hindus would refer to him as a yogi, the Buddhists would refer to him as an incarnation of Buddha. And I was like, like why, why is that? Like, what is like, what is it to this guy? There must be like something to this like, Jesus guy. And uh, and, and so I was like, okay, there must be a way to, to, to learn something from him. And um, my fiance and I, we got invited to, to this church, um, this non denominational church, um, from two of our friends. And they're like. And I was super skeptical still for like a year. M. I mean I still go to church. I'm skeptical, but I just went for a year to learn, you know, just to see like what, what is it about this Jesus guy that so many different traditions held in high regard. And uh, and a year later I was at the, the Good Friday service and they were reading a passage from, uh, from the crucifixion. And it was right after Jesus got crucified and the Roman centurion was standing there, um, and I'm not sure if he knows, but the Romans, um, at the time, like they weren't Jews, they weren't, they weren't following Christ. They didn't believe in, in God. And even the Roman centurion was there. He was like Eve, like, wow, that is truly the Son of God. And there was something in me that shifted and was like, wow, like if he is able to see that, like why, like why can't I, as a Jew who's, who is of the same, uh, culture as him, like why can't I see that? And uh, yeah, I guess for me, like following Christ doesn't mean that, right? Like you're living a perfect life, right? Like I'm a dirty rotten sinner, you know, Like I, like I have, I'm by no means, uh, perfect, uh, nor will I ever be. And I slip up and fall short every single day. And that's why I need Christ. And for me, it's, for me, my relationship with him is a place to go to when I do slip up and to know that, that I have a path forward in following him. So I'm curious what, like what are your, what do you, what do you make of that? As, ah, someone who's a scientist and just based off of your experiences, I

Speaker B: celebrate that you as another human being are on a path that is Deeply beneficial, meaningful and enriching for you. It m. Doesn't much matter to me that the. Because that's your truth. You know, I can sit here and witness that you are in your truth.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know, and I'll also say that like, as you age, as you go on with your journey to stay in your heart. M. You know, and I think there's nothing that can go wrong with that kind of life, you know, just staying in your heart. And it doesn't much matter if you stay exactly as you think you will go right now, um, or you'll evolve in some other unexpected way, because that's what happens to everybody. You know, I, I think that where people get stuck is when they try to crawl back into this very tight little shell that they just came from, you know, and they're not taking the, the sort of like naked run of the hermit crab from the smaller shell to a bigger shell, you know, because you are going to awaken and you're going to continue to unfold and continue to awaken and the, even the dimensionality, even if you stay in the depths of the, the Christian, um, worldview or the ethos, like, there's so much to know, there's so much to explore. There's so much richness of traditional. I like how you're describing the questions that kind of came to your mind and the pattern recognition that you put together and all of that.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Like, I fully, fully support that.

Speaker A: What, what holds you back from, from believing in Jesus?

Speaker B: I m didn't say I didn't believe in Jesus.

Speaker A: You're right, you're right, You're right. That was good. Wow. See what else I have? Um, All m. Right. Let me ask you this then. In terms of, in terms of truth, do you believe that truth is relative or absolute?

Speaker B: So that implies a, a positional being, you know, and so you're either in that positional being, you're either coming from like a human comprehension or you are trying to throw a, an empathy thread to what it might be like to be the divine mind, you know, the omnipotent mind. And I. That latter part feels, um, not impossible. M. For us with our, our brains or our minds. But we need to be humble about taking on.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: How it might be to have that. The perspective of the Godhead, you know, because I, I think that's where people start to, yeah. Get a little ahead of themselves.

Speaker A: Mhm. Like prideful,

Speaker B: prideful, judgmental. Like, you know, those are all shades of insecurity within your own self.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That instead of seeing it as like, oh, something's coming up in me of uncertainty and. And questions and oh, no, I can't question. I can't. You know, I've just got to like, uh, you know, um. I mean, I can't deviate.

Speaker A: I just did that to you two minutes ago.

Speaker B: What do you mean?

Speaker A: Oh, just by like being assumptive, assuming you're beliefs about something.

Speaker B: Right. And so ask me the question again.

Speaker A: I wanted to bring that up because it was. It was a good point. And I. Yeah, I think that is a. It is a. It is a real problem. You know, and like I'm. I'm somebody who didn't even grow up in this, you know, growing up thinking that I have a different perspective because I've lived outside of this for so long. And uh. So one. Yeah. One, I wanted to apologize for assuming something that you said. I'm. I'm sorry about that. And. And two, I think. I think that is. It is. It is a real problem because it turns people off from. From searching for the truth. And I think people associate. People often associate the uh. The emotions or they associate the actions that somebody else has or the actions that. Yeah. Somebody else, um, Acts towards them with, uh. With God and with pursuing the truth and in a. Yeah. And it. And it turns them away from searching.

Speaker B: Do you mean like if they see somebody that professes to follow God.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But they're disappointed in that person's behaviors.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker B: And attitudes that, uh. That it could shut the door for them.

Speaker A: Yeah. Like if they're in terms of their, uh. Yeah. Like if. If they're acting in a way that's is condemning or judgmental or assumptive.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think. I think that going back to the humility idea. Right. Like that seems to be the sav. That kind of neutralizes m. All of that, you know, where, um. The only time that. That I think one's beliefs can. Can isolate one or create tribalism, which is. We are very wired to. To think in those ways because we're trying to all get oxytocin and we are wired to pursue oxytocin. And just like food, there's healthy versions, you know, like connecting with your concept of God or what you believe to be God, that. That gives you a good feeling. That gives you a feeling of being significant, you know, loved. Uh, like you matter, you know, and that you have purpose. Right. And then there's the m. Terrible side, which is like, oh, othering whether we. Other animals and other beings as lesser than ourselves and less worthy of life and wellness than ourselves. Or we do that to other groups of people.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Or are even our concept of other people and, and then we're getting oxytocin by being, you know, in a particular group and then those people over there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So that's a more, uh, that's to me a less mature way of getting your oxytocin in a less healthy way because it really, it really, I've seen it like, it really causes people to get really rigid and really isolated and very, very internal, echo chambery with themselves and people who think only like themselves. So the thing that I see in you is both a forming of what you're feeling is true for you.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You're reaching out to people like me and saying, hey, what do you think is true? Mhm. You know, and comparing notes and having the courage to really deal with the sort of uncertainty areas, you know, between two human beings who might have very different life experiences.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: If that makes sense.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah it does. So do you, do you think then that believing in Christ limits you to pursue other spiritual, uh, practices of different traditions?

Speaker B: Ah, uh, that's a really, that's, that's the question for a lot of people, isn't it? Because there's certainly the institution wants you to stay in the institution, you know, like, wants you to, wants you to only be here and be in these safe shores and things like that. And they promise safety and cogency and community if you stay here. And then there's this like, um, there's this mythology that if you like, you know, go and you, you adopt other beliefs and things like that, that you'll get lost. And that happens in every institution no matter who you are. Like we're the ones with the right instructions. And you know, to some extent other people are not as complete in their thinking or they're not as connected with God or they're. Some just go so far as to say they're not even going to go to heaven without us, you know, like that kind of thing. And I feel like that's above my pay grade. You know, I, I feel like what I know is that love has many dimensions of expression in the human family, in around the world, in different cultures. And what matters to me is your behavior, how you treat others. Mhm. Are you respectful? You know, are you um, are you manipulative? Are you accepting? Are you boundaried when you need to be? Like healthy boundaries, not, not allowing, you know, other people to kind of take over your Mind or your, your, your heart. Yeah. So those are some sort of pillars of a well developed person in their own spirituality that I really honor. You know, and I, and I really think that I've seen that in many different traditions, people who are like that and, and inevitably I've seen in every tradition people who are struggling, who are, who are stuck in really, um, kind of self limiting beliefs and, and other limiting beliefs. And they're not. And they're suffering because of it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. How, how do your, how do these beliefs impact how you raise your children?

Speaker B: Well, my children are raised okay.

Speaker A: Or raised.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I believe that children need a general ethic, you know, like general principles of ethic and you know, love. And I also believe that sometimes parents, um, especially in my situation where I, my husband and I got divorced, my first husband, I got divorced their father and you know, when I had my spiritual awakening, he basically, um, thought that was, you know, very inconvenient for him and uh, accused me of being selfish when my own perception was I was giving up everything to serve others. So we had very different realities going back to that concept. And um, and so we didn't have a family where both parents were on the same page that could really create a container in which the children could develop their spirituality. You know, and, and even, even at that, like parents can't control.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Necessarily the spirituality of the children. Like, you know, in your case, like. And, and they have their own path and, and I think we need to honor that. Now if I have had friends whose uh, siblings or whatever have like accidentally joined a cult, you know, and it's usually around some dude who thinks that, you know, he's God or whatever the case. That's a scary situation. So, you know, I think there's certain things of like, human exploitation. There's patterns that are always evident around those kinds of things that, that um, people need to be definitely in communication with their children around.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But my principles with children is, um, when you pray, you pray gratitude, you give thanks for everything. M. And you're not. Because I didn't like the whole like praying always to ask for things, especially material things which I grew up, you know, watching in a lot of people.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And um, I don't know, that was just my own little, you know, didn't like that part of it. Um, yeah. Being grateful, praying before you eat, you know, really. And then also just being honest, whether that's, you know, some people go to like a structured confessional, some people, um, pray for forgiveness, some people, you know, in my first book, I talk about, like, a time in nature when I had to kind of go through a whole litany of self forgiveness, you know, um, to release myself from shame. And, um. Yeah, like, I think those are some things that I think are real to me as a parent pillars. And then my children, they decide what kind of spirituality that they want to evolve into, and they're doing that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, and it's really beautiful to watch.

Speaker A: Wow. How do you. How do you encourage that without imposing a bias? I know.

Speaker B: That's the hardest thing, right? That's the hardest thing. Do you have kids?

Speaker A: Uh, no. No.

Speaker B: Do you want kids?

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. It's the trickiest thing. It's the hardest work, but it's the most rewarding thing I've ever done. Um, I have this concept of, like, baby bird, right? Like, there's this. It's a myth, it's a mythology, but there's this concept of, like, if you see a baby bird that's out of the nest, don't pick it up, don't touch it, because if the mother bird smells human or the parent birds will abandon their babies. Right. You heard that concept? So, um, religion, I think, is one of those baby birds, like, if you touch, they fear. Like, you must have this pretty large chance that they will go the other way. And I've seen that over and over again, you know, whether it's master, um, teachers of one religion or the other, like, their children are like, you know, um, and rebel. And there's a whole preacher's kid, the whole thing. Right. But if you allow and affirm the love and the light in your children and you help them to think critically about these things, which I know that you are, then they have the ability to make it their own. And it doesn't smell like you. It's not all what you want for them, you know, but you kind of allow them to develop it and. And you surrender it to God, frankly.

Speaker A: So do you also encourage them to check out alternate routes that, uh, aren't the one you took?

Speaker B: No. I think. I think my job there is to warn them of things that I think would not, uh, be empowering and be more predatory, you know, because the. The cult thing, in every case, what that does is it takes your power instead of give instead of empowering you. Um, it. It sucks your energy.

Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. You have two children.

Speaker B: I have two biological children and I have two stepchildren who are my extra bonus children.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: How do you think that Are your children near having their Own children if

Speaker B: they were my age. Like, m. I was already having children by the time I was their age.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But they. And these times are a bit different, you know, in terms of finding partners. And I think the dating apps have really hijacked the human brain in a way that's very negative and.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And is causing people to not find love, you know, ironically. Um, so. And the social norms since COVID have just, like, dramatically changed, you know, in terms of the amount of online versus offline in our lives. You know, so I. I think we're. They're in a. Unfortunately, they're in a band of young people who are, um. I mean, look at the. The fertility rate. You know, the. The birth rates are plummeting in that generation and all kinds of things. So, um, I know they want. Most of them want to have families and children, and they're working hard at it, and they're very desirable, wonderful people. So, you know, I think it will happen for them. But I think everybody, including the friend I mentioned before, is having a tough time right now. Men and women are having tough time right now. And. And a lot of that has to do with technology, algorithms, like, basically serving up things to men and women where they end up in these wormholes that they're not even aware they're in on a content sign that shapes how they think. And, you know, so we have to kind of develop new muscles as humans and in our brains to realize what's happening to us, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I asked because I was curious. Do you think that that role will change for you as you're a grandmother? And how do you, I guess, see the difference of that role, of encouraging as a mother versus a grandmother, being different?

Speaker B: I don't know until I know. I really don't. I hear.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, from other people that you're a lot more lax with your grandbabies than you are with your children. You're a lot less worried about them.

Speaker A: Not my girl.

Speaker B: Spoil them. Is she on you? Is she on top of you?

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Well, what did your family think when you depart? I mean, you weren't religiously Jewish, right? Like, yeah. Like, what did they do when you. When you went that direction?

Speaker A: How much time you got? Um, it's definitely, uh. It's. It's definitely been challenging. You know, it's definitely been challenging to, um. To go against the grain in that way and. But I think, if anything, it's more of a test of my. My faith to be patient with them, to be understanding them with Them and to try to be loving with them and also to tell, to tell the truth and to speak up for things when I, when I know I need to. In the past, I've, I was, um, the first child and I've always kind of just did whatever made my family happy. And uh, so this has been a lot more of, uh, like speaking up for what I'm finding your voice. Yeah.

Speaker B: So it's been good for you.

Speaker A: Thank you. Uh, it hasn't been a walk in the park, that's for sure.

Speaker B: No. And you'll go through phases. Like right now you're in a real phase where you have to stand and you're in it, forgive this word, but there's an inspired phase, there's a confronting your childhood prejudice phase. And that's like a, ah, gate you've got to get through. So you went through that. You know, like, I'm going to be a Christian, even though I was raised Jewish or I'm, I'm ethnically Jewish and I had a good friend in medical school, by the way, who did this. And then, um, and then in the south, you know, or in the third phase, there is like, almost like black and white thinking like this is the only way because you're protecting yourself from being shaky.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: But. But eventually that softens. Believe it or not, I don't know how long in the future, but eventually that softens. You kind of go, oh, wait, maybe I can integrate who I was and who I am and what they think and what I think. And it's not so, um, tender. It's, it's not, you know, it's like a plant that grows and has fiber inside of it, you know, where it can stand against the, uh, the force of the wind and really be itself. And so, you know, just trust yourself that, you know, it's like five years in right now for you. Is that right?

Speaker A: Or four, Five years.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: For, for what?

Speaker B: For, for following Christ. Or, or.

Speaker A: Oh, uh, I got baptized a year ago.

Speaker B: Okay. So it's, it's. Yeah, it's new. Yeah.