Dani Strang

Speaker A: Once you have that realization, um, it's quite dehumanizing. And I just went out and I started talking to tons and hundreds of women who wound up sharing their experience with me, and so decided to explore the real impact of the systemic suppression of women's voices in the workplace.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Breaking HR Podcast, where we wrestle with employment challenges for entrepreneurs, business leaders, and HR professionals. Here are your hosts, Jesse and Nathan.

Speaker C: Okay, so welcome to the Breaking HR Podcast. I'm Jesse and this is Nathan.

Speaker D: Welcome. Uh, we're excited to have Danny on the show today as well.

Speaker C: Yeah, Danny, thanks for joining us.

Speaker A: Really excited to be a part of the podcast. And just anytime anybody gets me in a room to talk about how to break and rebuild hr, I mean, excellent.

Speaker C: Well, we're on the right path then.

Speaker D: Uh, we're looking for a third co host, slash. I'm looking to replace Jesse, so feel free.

Speaker C: Yes. I'm on the chopping block here. So, Danny, um, tell us a little bit about yourself and the work you do.

Speaker A: Yeah, so, I mean, I am one of those HR professionals who fell into HR by accident. I think that there's many, many of us that exist in that space. I graduated, um, a degree in marketing in 2008, which was the financial crisis, and marketing grads at that time were selling Frito Lay chips, and that sounded not great to me. So I, at the time, had just wrapped up an internship with Ikea, and it was actually the Canadian HR leader who was a part of the global HR matrix, who came up to me and said, you know, have you ever thought about a career in hr? And even at that time, I was like, so. And I still had, like, what, that final year left in university and just enough courses to sneak in, creating a double major for myself. And that's how I. I landed in it. And it was at a time where, if we remember, in Alberta, I want to say it was one of the last proper heydays with oil and gas. Where at the time that.

Speaker C: The peak of that last.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's when Tim Hortons was paying people, like, $30, almost $30 an hour, if you. Yeah, like, it was just wild. And so for me, the intersection of. You know what? I was really passionate about marketing back then. It was called consumer experience, or not consumer behavior. And now it's user experience. Right. It's the intersection of how do people. How do people think? How do they move through the world, and how do you create programs and messaging that. That really connects people with how they think and how they move through the world. And there was such an interesting opportunity to do that with recruitment. Right. Like an employer. Branding was really just becoming a thing. LinkedIn was just becoming a thing.

Speaker C: Like it was such a fun, it was all new.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was such a fun time to get into the function. And you know, since then I've just followed this really interesting scattergram that I think is following a bit of a path. But you know, have worked in retail, construction, big companies, small company. Um, but I think where my career really shifted and changed in a, in a very dramatic way was when I moved into tech. And so, um, became the first head of people and culture for a very well known uh, tech startup in Canada called Jobber. Um, that's gone on to, since recently raised 100 million um, funding which, which in my mind unicorn, that's, that's unicorn status. So to be a part of that kind of organization, early days and to be thrown into such a different world really opened my eyes to how, what will one like where, where the HR function truly is not working, not serving businesses anymore and developing my own, my own style and my own approach with how do we, how do we rebuild it and how do we change what value looks and feels like? And so spent a handful of years um, working in house for tech companies. And then, you know, truth be told, when you are building out a department for a tech company, it's a heavy lift. And so I did very um, heavy burnout in the fall of 2020 and in the discovery of, in my healing and trying to figure out where, how did I get here, like, where did this really horrible clinical level burnout, right? Like my adrenal system completely failed on me. How did I get here? And one of the things that I, that I realized was as, you know, um, as I kept climbing that corporate ladder, I realized that the rhetoric that's out there for women in leadership is that you have to continuously hide the very best things about who you are in order to achieve a certain level of success and to keep a certain level of success at the executive level. And once you have that realization, um, it's quite dehumanizing. And I just went out and I started talking to tons and hundreds of who wound up sharing their experience with me and so decided to explore the real impact of the systemic suppression of women's voices in the workplace. And in 2022, I spent all of 2022 making a documentary on this subject which is partially funded by um, Telestory Hive, an incredible program for up and coming content Creators and it launched on TelisTV earlier this year. And so I am um, in this really wild and challenging and exhausting and fascinating entrepreneurial pursuit of um, building out a platform for women called Maggie and at the same time working as a fractional executive, um, within the people and culture space. And not just necessarily in tech anymore. I bring, I love to work in high growth companies. And so Jesse, you and I met because at the time when I was supporting Fire and Flower, it was absolutely in hyper growth.

Speaker C: Yeah, it was booming.

Speaker A: Right now I have a client who's in massive hypergrowth in the home building space. And what's even more impressive about them compared to any sort of startup organization is they're in hypergrowth without the injection of venture capital financing. So this is the world, yeah, this is the world that I find myself in now is part entrepreneur pursuing this passion that I have of, you know, how are we, how are we keeping women in these critical leadership positions? Because you know, the churn rate of women out of leadership positions right now is at 50% horrible. And how do we make change there? But also still feeling really passionate about transforming HR into being this incredible growth lever for innovative and forward thinking hypergrowth companies.

Speaker D: Nice. And you're in the tech space and is, is that your specialty in the consulting role as well as do you use tech or what tech do you use for actually doing the work?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I, I, I'm sort of industry agnostic at this point in my career. Like I just love, like there's something like at first when um, my connection came to me and said, you know, there's this really cool project at this home builder. For me it was like, oh, but like I don't want to go back to construction like since and I, and I think everybody, most HR practitioners, I mean paving the way is almost always the big tech companies in terms of who's doing the most innovative things. Um, they're also, you know, at times pulling us back. You know, for an organization like Zoom, a remote company, um, that promotes remote workforce to say, you know, we're forcing our entire workforce to get back to office. Like there's some pretty extreme contradictions there. But from my consulting practice, I'm um, I'm definitely industry agnostic. My criteria is like if you don't, if you as a CEO or a senior leadership team can't understand why it's in your best interest to transform HR into a growth lever, then I frankly don't want to partner with you. And so I've been really lucky at this point in my career to really be picky and choosy about working for the CEOs who get it and who want to invest in it. Um, you know, like this home builder that I was working for, I made a recommendation for an HRAS one day and the next day it was approved by the cfo. And it's like literally launching in January, like, lightning speed.

Speaker C: I like that.

Speaker A: That's agile. Right to me. And it's in its, uh, table stakes. Like, if I need to create a business plan in 2024, essentially for why we need an HRAS, we have bigger. We've got bigger fish to fry. Right. So, yeah, industry agnostic in terms of, you know, the consulting work that I do, but also, um, absolutely in love with the tech space and certain elements from an innovation perspective. Um, and then also struggle with the tech space from, you know, being a founder and looking at, you know, all 2% of all venture capital funding going to women right now. So it's incredible to be a part of that space. But it also has its own unique challenges. One in which where it's like, this is, it's, it's, it's a little bit mind blowing to look back and be like, you chose this, you chose to get, you chose to get into this mess. And, uh, yeah, so that. Those, those two things are the. My big focal points of my career right now.

Speaker C: Awesome. I have a question. Uh, you know, you mentioned a little bit and how you got into, um, to the Maggie project or community. Um, I love the concept of the unlearning community that you talked about throughout it. Um, tell me a little bit more about that. Like, how does that, what does that mean to you? An unlearning community? I just thought that was really fascinating.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I just, I mean, I have been exposed to all of the types of programming and communities and certificates and experiences and events that are out there for women in leadership. And so much of the rhetoric that's out there right now is just get more mentorship, more experience, more education, more time, more executive presence, whatever that. More, more, more and more.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I, I fell into that way of thinking, and that's a part of the thinking that quite frankly led to my burnout, because it is very easy to convince yourself and to wholeheartedly internalize a lot of misogyny that has you thinking, yeah, it's just, I'm not good enough yet. Like, I don't have the degree or

Speaker C: I can't think, or this next certification or whatever it is, this next level of coaching.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, yeah. And, and it was in my own research that I, you know, in, in talking to women and then diving into my own burnout and really digging into how the brain learns and unlearns and our neuroplasticity and, and how we build neurological path, I, I made this discovery that it was that it's like physiologically after a period of time, you start to be conditioned for certain behaviors. Right. And for me, one of my biggest ahas, uh, and my recovery process was, you know, the thing that I told myself. Climbing the, the corporate ladder and with every more, you know, senior level title and position that I got, it was like, okay, at the next level or when I become vp, that's when my ideas and my perspectives and my opinions will be heard and celebrated and respected and welcomed and encouraged in the same way that my male peers are, right. All of this stuff that I'm experiencing right now, this is me just earning my stripes. So fine, yes, we'll put up with it. I'll follow the advice of just growing thicker. Stick in. And so then when I got there and I got the title and that experience of that shift that I was looking for didn't happen. And in fact I had not felt more suppressed with hiding what I truly wanted to say in certain instant instances. And the risk was notably higher than it was before. Um, that's the really dehumanizing experience that I'm talking about. And so what I discovered in my research was what I am calling and working through a trademark on right now, um, called the better not reflex. And this is, it's this idea that, yeah, it's this for women, it's this idea that all of these instances that these, these pieces of data that you get in the world of, okay, I share an idea and this not so great things happen. I'm interrupted more frequently, I get less speaking time. I'm um, questioned more often and in different ways than my male peers are. That's data for our brain. And taken in isolation, those things on their own seemingly not a big deal. But the latest neuroscience tells us that a collection of those microaggressions, which notably aren't so micro, can have the same chemical impact on our brain as one big t traumatic event. Like being involved in an earthquake, like being diagnosed with a life threatening disease. Because yes, we've evolved, but our bodies are not evolved enough to understand the difference between a collection of, um, seemingly little traumas and one big trauma. Um, in one instance, they literally register as the same thing. And so that's where my burnout came from. And so for me, it. It. I all of a sudden became this new purpose. This new mission for me was helping women understand. You don't need anything more. You don't need to find your voice. It's there. It's been there all along. But unlearning these neurological pathways that, you know, ultimately you're just a reflection of the environment. And we do exist in a world where women's voices on a lot of things don't hold the same weight as men's voices. And when you exist in that environment for a huge chunk of your life, how do you not start to internalize that and believe it yourself? So that's why it's an unlearning, um, platform where it's like, nope, we just need to figure out how to unlearn all of this stuff that gets in our way. And that, by the way, is not an easy thing to do.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think anything that. I like how you described that, Danny, how you talk about, like, that compounding, right. It might not be a big event, but all those pieces together, they hit the same way. And then trying to peel off those layers, that learned behavior after years, like, yeah, I can't imagine that's easy.

Speaker A: And I want to offer something because what's really important to me about, you know, the rhetoric that I. That I want folks to hear about Maggie, is I. I really believe that we need to move past this polarizing idea that if we focus on women, we're forgetting about men, or if we focus on men, we're forgetting about women. I think there's so much nuance in that, uh, because from my perspective is that if we can create the kinds of places and spaces where the voices of women can thrive, imagine how men will thrive in that space, too. So just like women create habits and neurological pathways around. I'm not going to say what I need to say in this moment because of risk. And I know it doesn't hold the same weight as, you know, my male peers. There's also a very similar experience for men where perhaps, like, you know, if I show too much vulnerability, I'm going to be seen as weakness. And so the repetition of those things or the data that you get associated with those things, things, those also create neurological pathways in you. And yet we all want to experience different things. Men aren't doing well in the patriarchy. Women aren't doing well in the page. Nobody's doing well.

Speaker C: Nobody's winning right now.

Speaker D: Can you describe more about the Join Maggie, uh, platform and exactly what the goal of it was.

Speaker A: So what I realized when I started to do, like with any business, you know, really get clear on the problem that you're solving. And for me it was like, okay. This neurological pathway, this better not reflex, is getting in the way of women being able to say and express their ideas, perspectives and opinions in critical conversations. Which, by the way, in critical conversations, women speak at about two thirds the rate of men, or they participate at about 2/3 the rate of men. And participation is not like, uh, how did Jesse, how does your kiddo get a participation badge? Hi, I'm here. But nobody was going up to these women afterwards saying, hey, in that conversation that was directly related to, um, let's say women's health, did you, did you say what you needed to say? Nobody's asking women that. And we know that women aren't. And then they're walking away with this shame and guilt around holding this position of power in a really important conversation. But because of risk and all of this conditioning and fear in our bodies, we can't do the thing. And then we hold ourselves responsible for. I know I have held myself responsible for holding swabs of women back for not saying the thing that I needed to say in that conversation. And those are big things. Those are big things to carry.

Speaker C: It's a big way to carry. Yeah.

Speaker A: So when I. So it's like, great. So we, we, uh, unlearn. This is, this is the objective. And when I started looking at, you know, the platforms that are out there for women, what is glaringly clear is, you know, even platforms for women that are highly funded, like $100 million venture capital, highly funded platforms, the majority of the focus is networking. So, so many of the platforms are like, well, how have men, how have men advanced in their careers? And there's organizations like eo, um, ypo, and it's these cohort based experiences, but it really revolves around networking. What's the point? So full stop, women do not need more networking. So I knew that. And when I started looking around and just doing my research, like, okay, what other platforms out there existing that have done a good job of like, helping the brain unlearn a neurological response? The number one example that's been around since the 1920s and everybody knows about it is Toastmasters. So what I learned from Toastmasters is the most important thing to shifting your body's neurological response to a trigger to your own stress response, like nerves triggering how your body responds. Right. Um, it's practice and the exposure to that practice, that repetition is exactly what your brain needs to unlearn a pretty concrete neurological pathway. So the ultimate goal of Maggie is, you know, in a world that's going to take, I don't know, we're getting closer and closer to that 200 year mark to achieve global gender equality of things like men and women's voices having equal weight in critical conversations. I just want to empower women with the tools to undo these neurological pathways that are just acting as inhibitors in their careers. So this is the vision and the work that's happening with the Maggie platform. And we'll be launching. And since we're on a podcast, I should be. I have to be better with. Yeah, we'll be launching, um, additional pilots this year and they're longer term pilots. We're looking for about 20 women to participate in these. In these pilots, ideally within the Edmonton area.

Speaker C: Awesome. And is the best place to find the information on the website. I know I watched the docu series on. Yeah, I think it was off the website onto YouTube. M. Is that right? Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Okay. And what's the website again? Just for Everybody.

Speaker A: So it's www.joinmegie.org.

Speaker C: that's awesome. Thank you for taking it through it. M. You know, I think watching the docu series, like, you know, I. After we originally chatted, Danny, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna take the time, watch through the episodes. And um, I had a lot of moments where I was just like, holy. Like, you know, like the things I thought I knew, um, and understood obviously were, were not necessarily accurate. And it was, it was just good to see so many perspectives. And I felt like the group was a, uh, you know, quite an array of different backgrounds coming into it. Um, and they all shared very similar stories. I was like, wow, so this, this is, you know, something that we need to put some, some more horsepower towards. And I like your approach. And how do we do it differently? Right. Instead of like, know there's this course on a weekend or whatever. Like what is a different way to approach it that can help to unwind it and get us to a better place?

Speaker D: Well, the repetitive application of the ideas and practice, like it's not, it's not solved in a weekend like you said.

Speaker C: I think I want to focus a little bit more about people that are in higher positions with businesses, whether they're the owner themselves, entrepreneur like you and I, Danny, have worked with a lot of entrepreneurs, but whether they're an entrepreneur or, you know, like someone, uh, in the c Suite at a bigger company. You know, like, are there a couple small steps they could take to start that journey or to start maybe becoming more aware of where they can, um, start making change. Because maybe that's it. Maybe it's trying to figure out where you can start making some change.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love stories of glimmers of hope or really good examples of where men are making the decision to utilize some of their power, if you want, if we want to use that word, to create better places and spaces for women. So a recent example, and I don't know if either of you heard about this, and I am blanking on the name of the conference, but there was a well funded, um, highly anticipated tech conference in the US and it was like $850 ticket and it was, it was leaked and it was actually a gentleman who figured this out and went to the world with it. It was leaked that this conference was using artificially, um, produced images of women as placeholders on their panels to make it seem like their panels were more diverse. But the women themselves didn't actually exist. So they were.

Speaker C: Want to Google this?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a, it's a legit thing. And here's the thing. That conference probably would have gone ahead. They probably still, it still would have happened if women were the only people who raised the alarm bells about how awful and inappropriate and shameful this was. The thing that shut the conference down, like actually stopped it from happening were the big top male executives from Google, Microsoft, um, I think Salesforce was another one who came in and said no.

Speaker C: Yeah, I just found the article. This is crazy. Yeah, Microsoft CEO, um, Apex CEO all backed out. It says fake AI generated woman on tech conference agenda leads Microsoft and Amazon execs to drop out. That's right. See, that is powerful. That's fantastic. I'm going to read more later.

Speaker A: Yes, do, please do. But that's one example of where and, and some of the follow up was, you know, the action. So it's not only that, but so many men that I know I'm really freaking proud of without that being a diminishing thing to say. I admire. That's better. I admire their actions. Is so many men who I would say have a really easy time being selected for panels or speaking opportunities, which those things can be game changers for your career or if you're a small business owner, they have adopted their own, um, diversity and inclusion values. To say, like, no women on your panel. You can't have me. Unless you're willing, you know, to. Unless you're willing to um, change what this panel looks like or people are calling it that. The, the um, disappearance of the mantle, which I love so much, but that's coming from them.

Speaker D: Interesting. I just to share a thought on, to go back to the examples and what we can do because I think also not, not every one of us is in a position of power all the time or you kind of go flow in and out of it maybe in circumstances so then we're not used, uh, to looking out for those opportunities. So it's a great reminder. Yeah, I haven't been asked to be a panelist at a conference, but if I am or when I am, there is an opportunity there. And I. Can you kind of remember that at that time? Because yeah, it's all, it's that unlearning of like, well, if I get asked I'll be excited. I'll just be like, yeah, sure, sounds great and not really think much about it. Well, now I'm just wouldn't even know that I'm continuing that problem. But if it's, you know, that. And there's I'm sure tons of other examples where you can just take a uh, quick breath of remembering the, you know, the power that you hold or that you, you get from time to time.

Speaker A: Well, and maybe even something, something that's a bit more accessible because I think one of the things that stop men from um, opening those doors from women and these are through direct conversation is that fear of. And so there's, there's risk there for me. I totally get it. And I was on um, a podcast earlier this year with Ryan Jefferson's podcast in Edmonton. An incredible example of an individual who's really committed to the work and putting himself in, into his own situations of like, I didn't show up in a way that I wanted to show up, but we're not static and I can learn and I can be better and I'm. And I'm gonna try to do better and be better. And this was, you know, just when the docu series was launching and we were talking about Maggie and he gave an example where he said, you know, I can't remember the lead into the story exactly, but he said there was a, ah, company that I used to work at and there was one of my peers, male peer, who just was like more touchy feely than anybody was comfortable with men. Women like, was just like the quick massage shoulder guy. Right. Like I think we've all worked with quick shoulder massage guy. I know I have worked with several in my career. But, you know, and in the conversation, Ryan was like, you know, you know that you're getting to a place of having heightened awareness when, you know, there was a meeting and quick massage guy came up and did the massage thing to the woman. And she just said in the. In like it was a senior leadership meeting. There was a lot of heavy hitters and decision makers in that room. And she just said, you know what? Don't do that. Like, just. Just stop. Uh, don't do that, or whatever. Whatever her version of that was. And Ryan said, you know, you're reaching awareness when, you know, in my head, I thought, good for you. Really good for you. And he's right. That is a level of awareness. But where we didn't go in that conversation. And, you know, upon reflecting on that example a little bit further, what I want to ask Ryan and so many other men is what stopped you from being the person to say the thing instead of waiting for your woman colleague to almost get to her breaking point? Because her saying that in that conversation was incredibly risky. That could have been perceived not great from many other men in the room. And it's. And it's an example of. Or even like, you know, we all have risk factors when it comes to calling things out in a public environment. Would stop you from pulling touchy feely shoulder guy aside and being like, hey, I just don't think that this is resonating. Maybe you should consider not doing this anymore. And even better, pulling your woman colleague aside and saying, hey, I saw you in that meeting, and what you did was exceptionally brave. Those two things are examples of positive corrective experience for the brain. Like, holy, I've been seen by an ally in a way that isn't really making sense for my brain right now because it's new data and it's new information.

Speaker C: I was gonna say it's a new experience of something that's happened forever, that you. They've learned to be like, oh, that's okay. Or, or like you said, you know, they're. They're. They've been conditioned not to respond, but now they're seeing to respond, greeted with a positive reinforcement. I know we're, uh, we're pushing up on time here, Danny. And, uh, I think you have so many powerful pieces to share, and, and it's. It's a great conversation. Um, you know, one of the things I want to. Before we kind of, uh, carry on to the rest of our busy days is, you know, is there one or two things that you'd like to share, uh, the listeners, um, you know, maybe a summary or a couple of things, you know, that you want people to carry on.

Speaker D: 20 words, parting words, words of wisdom,

Speaker A: you know, if, if things interested you in this conversation. You know, the docu series that launched earlier this year is on our website and we made a very strategic decision to make it free. It's available for anybody to view on YouTube. Just join maggie.org and there's a tab for our docu series, and we just want that content to be as accessible as it possibly can. And, you know, there's no licensing associated with it. So use it in conversations with your organization. Use it with, you know, develop as a part of your development for your leadership team. You know, tell me about it so I can celebrate that with you. But that's what it's out there for. And you know, my contact information, if I can leave it here is Danny, uh, join maggie.org you can reach out to me at, uh, any point in time to continue the conversation. A big part of my 2024 is continuing consulting work with Maggie. Speaking engagements, keynotes. And so I'm really starting to look at booking that up in the new year. And there's also our mailing list at, uh, join, uh, maggie.org where you can just sign up for updates. And it's been pretty quiet this year as we sort of figure out our positioning and where we want to go. Um, but looking ahead to 2024, there's going to be a lot more coming up, particularly for Maggie. And so that's, you know, that's my big ask. And if you are interested in participating in the pilots of our unlearning platform that I did share, um, about earlier, all of that information will be sent out via newsletter and our social media channels, which you can find all of that information on our website.

Speaker C: Awesome. Thank you for, for all this, Danny. I mean, you're doing very important work and, you know, we want to do our part and, and share that with, you know, our. I joke, but our 10 or 12 listeners. But no, it's probably more than that. But we'll do our part to, to make sure that people, people hear it. And, um, you know, again, thank you so much for what you're doing. I do highly recommend the docu series. I was like I said it was very enlightening for me to watch, um, and, you know, very, very much open my eyes, I think, to a lot of things that I thought I knew and gave me a lot of perspective on. So, yes, thank you for all you're doing. And honestly, thanks for joining us today. I think, um, you know, been fun having a chat with you again.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, thanks for having me. And it's funny. We really focus, which I appreciate getting to focus on Maggie. And maybe we need to do a part two where we talk about HR as a growth lever, because that.

Speaker C: Yeah, we'll do.

Speaker B: We'll do that.

Speaker C: We'll bring you back, and we'll talk about just that part.

Speaker D: Right when we started the call, I was thinking we need to have two episodes with Danny because, yeah, there's. There's a lot. Um, and so it's, uh. It would be great to have you back if we could.

Speaker A: Likewise. Thanks, both.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening. Go make it a great day.