Can Psychedelics Make You a Better Leader? Sophie Spitzer | Ep. 007

1 - > SPEAKER_00: Alright, welcome back for another episode of 2 - > HXT212. 3 - > So today I'm joined by Sophie Spitzer and she's the founder 4 - > and CEO of Kinesy. 5 - > You know, I've I've built this podcast in the in the mindset of 6 - > exploring new ideas to see what's next, to see and to talk 7 - > to people about innovation, about what's trendy, and to see 8 - > what people are building, what the future is about. 9 - > Okay.

10 - > And I had some this kind of curiosity around psychedelics 11 - > and mental health as well, which I believe is a very important 12 - > topic nowadays. 13 - > So I invited Sophie for the podcast and to give you an 14 - > introduction. 15 - > Sophie, she's actually a system architect. 16 - > She spent a decade building infrastructure, such as a 17 - > pandemic response systems that coordinate 30 million PCR red 18 - > tests, entrepreneur education programs that reach 11,000 19 - > teenagers across Austria, that's a massive one, and the 20 - > leadership development in tech and startups.

21 - > And a few years ago, she had a realization the most important 22 - > infrastructure we are missing isn't a technological one 23 - > actually, it's a human one. 24 - > It's a systems and conditions we need to help people actually 25 - > transform. 26 - > And that's a very important one. 27 - > And that insight led her to psychedelics, not because she's 28 - > spiritual or trendy, even we can talk about it later, but because 29 - > she's an engineer asking how do we design the conditions for 30 - > real lasting change.

31 - > And today she ran Kinesy, which offers one-to-one legal 32 - > psalosybin journeys paired with rigorous coaching and 33 - > integration, and she also heads Psi Psy standard, working to set 34 - > verification standard for all this work is done across Europe, 35 - > which I believe is also very important to set up some 36 - > structure. 37 - > So she doesn't believe in shortcuts, she believes in 38 - > building systems that actually work. 39 - > So Sophie, welcome to HXT212.

40 - > SPEAKER_01: Hi Thibault, great to be with you. 41 - > SPEAKER_00: Excellent. 42 - > So my name is Thibaut Catara, I'm the founder of Catala 43 - > Consulting, and this is HXT212. 44 - > Alright, so I want to understand better about um what is 45 - > psychedelic?

46 - > What what do they do? 47 - > What they cannot do, what they can do, what it can help, um, as 48 - > well what coaching matters, uh, as well why integration is such 49 - > an important topic, and if it could become a new model of 50 - > medicine. 51 - > So today I'm uh that's why I also invited you because I want 52 - > to explore this. 53 - > Okay.

54 - > So yeah, first of all, because you you saw in the introduction 55 - > um that you came from a different background, and how 56 - > did you arrive in this work, which is totally different? 57 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um to this day, I actually sometimes can't 58 - > believe that my you know my family now thinks that I'm 59 - > dealing with drugs. 60 - > Um, just to you know, already put out the put out the stigma 61 - > there, which is clearly not true, not the case. 62 - > But um how I I stumbled across it, and it's so so interesting 63 - > on multiple layers.

64 - > But the the thing that I really never get get tired of pointing 65 - > out is that behind the thing that I rejected the most, that I 66 - > was most afraid of in my life, lay my future career path, lay 67 - > the foundation of what I'm now thinking is actually the start 68 - > of my career. 69 - > So we have to go back a little and I'm always asking people you 70 - > want the long or the short version. 71 - > I think we have quite some time, so I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna 72 - > opt for the middle version.

73 - > And basically, my my my journey to psychedelics started when I 74 - > was 15. 75 - > I was um at my first exchange semester in the US, it was my 76 - > biggest dream to be able to be there. 77 - > My parents could, you know, uh barely afforded me to go there, 78 - > and I was there, and it was, you know, I was just so full of 79 - > happiness that this worked. 80 - > And then two weeks into being in this new high school on a 81 - > different continent, uh, a person came up then like was 82 - > gonna be a friend, and she was like, Sophie, do you smoke?

83 - > And I was like, interesting. 84 - > Teenagers in the US sm sm no, sorry, she said, so do you want 85 - > to smoke? 86 - > Let's meet on the weekend. 87 - > And I was like, interesting.

88 - > Teenagers in the US smoke only on the weekends, like coming 89 - > from Austria with 15, you know how to smoke a cigarette, like 90 - > most I guess back in back in my day. 91 - > And um, I was like, okay, sure, let's meet, you know, I want to 92 - > make friends and I can smoke a cigarette with you. 93 - > So turns out that um I was there on the weekend and it was not a 94 - > cigarette, which I only realized after having smoked this Mariana 95 - > joint like a cigarette.

96 - > SPEAKER_03: Okay. 97 - > SPEAKER_01: And I at this point I didn't know what Mariana was, 98 - > I had no idea. 99 - > And I collapsed, I fainted, and I lost consciousness. 100 - > And I I still get get goosebumps when I think about it because I, 101 - > you know, at 15 different continent, no parent, biggest 102 - > life dream, you know.

103 - > And when I woke up, I was I I I I couldn't believe what 104 - > happened. 105 - > And the the thing that like I really thought I was going to 106 - > die. 107 - > So I it it this moment was so deeply traumatic for me that it 108 - > really ingrained in my nervous system that ever since that 109 - > moment, which I obviously survived, um with the terrible 110 - > night, to be frank, um, I never touched anything any longer 111 - > anymore. 112 - > Um, of course, I I was accustomed to alcohol and 113 - > cigarettes, which are not drugs, um, but exactly.

114 - > But yeah, so I I I for all my life growing up, I was the 115 - > person who said I would rather die than take substances. 116 - > Like, no, no way. 117 - > And I would also cut friends out of my life that started doing 118 - > it, you know. 119 - > And um, yeah, uh I but the the second layer to this story is 120 - > that I didn't just not touch it, but I had revolved a trauma 121 - > around it.

122 - > Every time I saw people on TV doing drugs, I got a panic 123 - > attack. 124 - > Okay, and I didn't realize that this wasn't normal for me, you 125 - > know, everyone does gets that. 126 - > And yeah, so it was only until I met my now fiancé that things 127 - > changed, which is around about three years, three and a half 128 - > years ago. 129 - > And I also always think it's so funny, you know.

130 - > When I met my fiance, I started taking drugs, which is also, you 131 - > know, um just a pointed way of of um speaking about how you 132 - > know society views this, which is absolutely um not the case 133 - > fundamentally. 134 - > And yeah, he we we started talking about psychedelics and 135 - > psychedelics here. 136 - > Specifically, I'm referring to mushrooms. 137 - > So maybe to also already bring in, you know, what are 138 - > psychedelics.

139 - > So there are two forms of psychedelics, they're classical 140 - > psychedelics like psilocybin, which is magic mushrooms, magic 141 - > truffles, lst or ayahuasca, DMT. 142 - > So these are the classical, and then there are non-classical 143 - > psychedelics, which are now more in use, like the anesthetic um 144 - > ketamine or the inactogen um MDMA. 145 - > So um, yeah, but now I'm specifically referring to 146 - > psilocybin, so magic mushrooms and yeah, um my fiance like 147 - > realized okay, wow, she she like it she really has a trauma 148 - > around it.

149 - > Like we can't even talk about this. 150 - > But he also had the feeling Sophie is so interested in in um 151 - > psychology, she's so interested in human in the psyche, right? 152 - > Maybe it's something for her. 153 - > Okay, and then he'd like with baby steps, like my nervous 154 - > system could not hold more than 10 minutes of YouTube content on 155 - > drugs.

156 - > Like I would like I needed to close the laptop always because 157 - > I couldn't always. 158 - > Yeah, and and that's because you know, now I talk about it, but I 159 - > couldn't even talk about it three and a half years ago. 160 - > So I also like this is also why I'm so passionate about what I'm 161 - > doing right now because I understand what it is to be on 162 - > the other side. 163 - > I was on the other side, and so yeah, then um, as as you know, 164 - > the life headed shortly after Leo, my fiancee, he you know, 165 - > baby step introduced me into the theoretics of it, and I also 166 - > understood frameworks like the David Nutt chart, for example, 167 - > gray chart.

168 - > Maybe you can link it also in the show notes, is by Professor 169 - > David Nutt. 170 - > He's a he's one of the world's leading researchers on it, and 171 - > you see drugs, um, harm done to self and harm done to others 172 - > based on drugs. 173 - > Guess what number one is? 174 - > I don't know, alcohol is the worst.

175 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay, so not surprised. 176 - > SPEAKER_01: And there are like 10 listed, and the least one 177 - > mushrooms. 178 - > SPEAKER_00: Is it is it? 179 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's it's crazy.

180 - > And going into my first psychedelic journey, this was 181 - > this was what I had in mind. 182 - > I was like, there are researchers that do this, you 183 - > know, I trust them. 184 - > There are thousands, there's science, you know. 185 - > I was holding on to science so hard.

186 - > So in my first journey, I was really, I mean, of course, I was 187 - > informing myself, but for me, it was really overcoming this 188 - > deep-rooted fear of dying. 189 - > For me, taking a substance equaled dying. 190 - > So the first journey was just about being brave and overcoming 191 - > my biggest fear in life. 192 - > And again, I I get goosebumps thinking about it because I'm 193 - > still to this day so proud of like the moment for months 194 - > before I was conditioning myself like athletes.

195 - > I'm gonna take it and I'll be fine. 196 - > I'm gonna take it and I'll be fine. 197 - > And I took it and I was fine. 198 - > And I I still remember, you know, like doing this like 199 - > mental clap when I took it, and I was like, okay, now it 200 - > started, it's over.

201 - > And like it in my mind, the the the the thing was done, but of 202 - > course it only then started. 203 - > And um yeah, as you then as you already read in my in my um 204 - > introduction, I've always been interested in systems change, 205 - > I've always had this like impact at heart, but it never truly 206 - > felt like that's it. 207 - > And when I in my first psychedelic journey experienced 208 - > what I experienced in that moment already, I knew this is 209 - > what I want to bring into the world, that's it, and yeah, 210 - > that's when it started.

211 - > SPEAKER_00: Very interesting. 212 - > You're a bit like the um the Batman, you know, Batman? 213 - > Because Batman he is called Batman and he's is uh he's 214 - > disguised as a as a bat because he's he's super scared of bats. 215 - > So your own he made his his biggest fear as his biggest 216 - > strength, and that's I think that I will call you Batman.

217 - > I'm taking that. 218 - > SPEAKER_01: Thank you, thank you. 219 - > New nickname, I love it. 220 - > Yes, okay.

221 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah. 222 - > No, I see how it can it can it can be built and or you had this 223 - > kind of realization that it was actually quite um healing 224 - > behind, and you were as well looking into the science. 225 - > So I believe there is also this um um stigma around it, um, that 226 - > there is a psychedelic for entertainment and psychedelic 227 - > for um healing as well. 228 - > Can you explain the difference between the two and uh is this 229 - > still the case?

230 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so as with all things in life, and that's also 231 - > one of the biggest things I've learned in my past years, is 232 - > it's all about intentions, it's all about why you do what you 233 - > do. 234 - > And to give you an example, somebody can be at a um at a 235 - > party, like let's say a rave, I think that's a good example, 236 - > where there's like really beautiful ambient music. 237 - > Somebody can take a mushroom to go party, to go crazy, you know.

238 - > The intention is to party, and then people do it. 239 - > They they they take it. 240 - > It it you know it's you for some, not for everyone, of 241 - > course. 242 - > Also an important point I'm gonna make in a second, but you 243 - > can take it for party if your intention is to party.

244 - > Another person can take the exactly the same amount, exactly 245 - > the same substance at this rave and say, I want to go deep, I 246 - > wanna, I wanna dance and be with myself today and just release 247 - > whatever I want to release, and this can be therapeutic then. 248 - > Okay, so it really is about the intention. 249 - > At the same time, I want to say that there is, of course, a very 250 - > clear case, and I would always advocate for people to, if 251 - > especially if they do it for the first time, to do therapeutic, 252 - > and um, I need to explain therapeutic also in a moment, 253 - > um, or or or more healing journeys in a safe environment.

254 - > Like clearly, I'm not saying take mushrooms on a dance floor 255 - > and in think that you're gonna be healed. 256 - > No, clearly not, right? 257 - > You have to approach this in maximum safety. 258 - > I can speak to this in a moment if you want to, but the core 259 - > point I want to make is it the differentiation is primarily 260 - > intention, and also this is how you can guide when you go into a 261 - > professionally held psychedelic journey with a coach or a 262 - > therapist, you can guide your intention.

263 - > Like your intention is like a compass. 264 - > What do you want to shed light on? 265 - > What do you want to see? 266 - > unknown: Yeah.

267 - > SPEAKER_00: I think that's um that's important that you you 268 - > you mentioned this um because they are psychedelic. 269 - > So when you go to the first of all, it's very important to 270 - > mention that most of the substances that you mentioned 271 - > are sometimes illegal in uh in some in some countries. 272 - > So there are some specific countries which are a bit more 273 - > uh flexible around the medicine and not the drug as an uh a 274 - > polydrug, but more like a medicine.

275 - > So so there is um that's very important to mention. 276 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let me maybe so basically psychedelics or 277 - > these substances in a not clinical setting are illegal 278 - > almost everywhere. 279 - > So by default, you can think it's illegal except for the 280 - > Netherlands. 281 - > Okay, so in Europe, except for the Netherlands, there are some 282 - > exceptions also in in um in the US, but in the in the Europe 283 - > case it's only legal, fully legal in the Netherlands.

284 - > And here, psilocybin truffles, so not mushrooms but truffles. 285 - > It's actually interesting, legal loophole. 286 - > Everything that is above ground is forbidden, okay, but 287 - > everything that is below ground is okay. 288 - > Okay, yes, and psilocybin truffles, like they have the 289 - > same same same active ingredient.

290 - > The one is just above ground, the other one is below. 291 - > So, like it is illegal in non-clinical settings, but in 292 - > clinical settings now more and more legalization happens. 293 - > And here, for example, just to quickly cover this like really, 294 - > really amazing thing that happened in 2025, which is 295 - > Germany for the first time um granted a compassionate use 296 - > program. 297 - > So for people that are in dire need for these um treatments now 298 - > can get special access.

299 - > I mean, it's super limited, but in the clinic Mannheim and in 300 - > the Ovid Klinik in in Berlin, of course, you have to go through a 301 - > rigorous process, but these these medicines really are, and 302 - > here the intention is medicine, yeah, you know, are being used 303 - > in Europe, and that's that was really groundbreaking. 304 - > SPEAKER_00: I think that's so it's evolving, and we can see 305 - > the society starting to uh to to embrace it a bit more, to I 306 - > mean, to be more and more curious.

307 - > There's a lot still a lot of taboo and stigma around it, I 308 - > believe. 309 - > Of course, but uh it's getting there. 310 - > And what what you refer to is mostly the um the psychedelic 311 - > assisted coaching as well. 312 - > SPEAKER_01: Correct.

313 - > SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me a bit more about what exactly it 314 - > is? 315 - > SPEAKER_01: So here we have to differentiate, and that's what I 316 - > just meant about therapy, right? 317 - > So I'm really cautious with the word therapy because when we 318 - > think about therapy, you know, it in a classical sense, there's 319 - > a diagnosis and there is a goal, right? 320 - > And PAT, psychedelic assisted therapy, is only pertaining to 321 - > clinical settings, which is only in clinical trials right now, 322 - > which is interestingly also the main source where people now get 323 - > access to these um treatments in a safe setting.

324 - > Anything that is not in a clinical setting, I personally 325 - > always refer to as coaching. 326 - > So I would I I think we should go with coaching now because 327 - > that's also where my my company is. 328 - > But basically, there is um therapeutic frameworks that are 329 - > being used, but you should not call it therapy because it's not 330 - > classical therapy, right? 331 - > So um, yeah, but retreats, for example, do um coach these 332 - > coachings, um, or psychedelics said coaching of one-on-one, 333 - > like kinesi.

334 - > So um, yeah. 335 - > SPEAKER_00: And can you explain a bit more the the role of the 336 - > substance itself versus the role of the coach as well? 337 - > SPEAKER_01: You see, beautiful, beautiful question. 338 - > They really go hand in hand.

339 - > Um the coach is such an important factor of a 340 - > psychedelic of a guided psychedelic journey. 341 - > And a recent study in um Medical Nature magazine, I will I will 342 - > you can link it um below. 343 - > Actually, uh this April came out where they where they ask 185 344 - > practitioners, MDs, clinical, non-clinical, underground, what 345 - > are the main factors that um that what are the main factors 346 - > that are that help the out the outcome? 347 - > Thank you.

348 - > That helped the outcome. 349 - > And number one is therapeutic alliance, okay, which is the 350 - > rapport you feel with your coach. 351 - > Why? 352 - > When you are in a psychedelic state, you are it's and I'm 353 - > simplifying this extreme, you are very open.

354 - > And the number one thing, and this is also what kinesis build 355 - > on, is you need safety, you need safety and nervous system 356 - > safety. 357 - > And how do you get that? 358 - > We're social animals, it's about co-regulation, it's about 359 - > attunement. 360 - > So your coach, if the coach is attuned, they will be your 361 - > safety net in the moment.

362 - > So it's not just about the preparation phase where you go 363 - > into your topics that when you want to talk about, you know, 364 - > your your maybe your trauma timeline, etc. 365 - > But it's really about feeling safe. 366 - > And I think it's also logical to think if you feel safe, you can 367 - > let go more, and then you have deeper outcomes. 368 - > SPEAKER_00: I understand.

369 - > So that's interesting because well, um it's very similar to 370 - > I've done some coaching as well. 371 - > I've done some uh I had some people uh helping me on the on 372 - > the coaching side without any substance. 373 - > Um is it similar and what the substance can do more than just 374 - > simple coaching? 375 - > You see what I mean?

376 - > Do you see the difference between us too? 377 - > Or what's what the substance will bring more than just a 378 - > coaching or regular therapy? 379 - > SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, of course. 380 - > So that is also a great question that and I need to expand a 381 - > little here because we need to go into um neurology, 382 - > neurochemistry.

383 - > So also super simplified terms. 384 - > When you take a I'm specifically referring to uh to psilocybin 385 - > now, magic mushrooms, truffles. 386 - > When you take that, your brain is basically flooded with 387 - > something like serotonin. 388 - > Okay, and serotonin, you know, we have hormones in our bodies, 389 - > neurotransmitters, and serotonin is here for um mood regulation, 390 - > for perception, but also satiation and many other things, 391 - > right?

392 - > They never just have one um one way of working. 393 - > And what that causes in your brain is that your default mode 394 - > network, maybe you've heard of this before, the activity of the 395 - > activity of that is tremendously reduced. 396 - > And what that does, we so basically when we we are in our 397 - > our brains very simplified, work in two modes. 398 - > Either you work, either you're in the focus mode, you focus on 399 - > something, or you're in the default mode when you're like 400 - > under the shower, daydreaming, etc.

401 - > But in this focus, in this default mode, we have like the 402 - > automations, but we also have the depression, the anxiety, the 403 - > looping, the rumination. 404 - > So when you reduce the default mode network, your brain, when 405 - > you reduce the the noise of the default mode network, your brain 406 - > can actually think not clearly, but it it can it's many people 407 - > say it's like a breath of fresh air. 408 - > All this like negative self-talk, this is also 409 - > autobiographical.

410 - > I had this happen to me in the past, it's reduced. 411 - > So you're basically moving away a little from your ego, from 412 - > your sense of identity. 413 - > And that talk therapy is there, or talk or coaching is very hard 414 - > to get there if if at all. 415 - > So your patterns of identity are are loosened up.

416 - > So you know, if you a lot of times when you're stuck on 417 - > something, you you can't see your way out because you are 418 - > stuck, and when you take psychedelics, it loosens up, it 419 - > it gets more flexible. 420 - > You also have a lot of more divergent thinking, higher 421 - > cognitive flexibility. 422 - > You can be, you know, you see things from a completely 423 - > different angle. 424 - > And one other thing that I want to mention here very much.

425 - > SPEAKER_00: Just before you go there, because I I I feel that 426 - > uh we can touch this kind of feeling uh because I got all my 427 - > ideas under the shower or when I run, you see, and uh and uh and 428 - > I and I feel that I don't know why, but every time I go 429 - > running, I come back here and I have like thousands of ideas. 430 - > So it's like this kind of creative thing. 431 - > So I feel the same thing here. 432 - > That's something similar, I guess.

433 - > SPEAKER_01: No, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. 434 - > And I mean, especially like if you get in the state of in a 435 - > flow state, yeah, you know, for running. 436 - > I mean, when when you run, when you do sports, other things also 437 - > happen, endorphins, etc. 438 - > But that's when you really get out of your head, quite 439 - > literally.

440 - > And yes, that or breath work. 441 - > I I think I know you do breath work, you can also reach 442 - > psychedelic states through breath work with different 443 - > mechanisms, but um you can also get there so you. 444 - > Don't always need the substance, but in the question, coach with 445 - > psilocybin versus coach without psilocybin, it's a pretty clear 446 - > case what the substance does. 447 - > And I mean, it I would really just love to add here another 448 - > thing, which is called, and this is also, I think, specifically 449 - > interesting for entrepreneurs, people you know, who really like 450 - > rigid control, I need to, you know, achieve.

451 - > Um another thing that happens, there a lot of things happen, 452 - > but another thing is um thalamocortical filtering, and 453 - > that's a pretty mouthful, but the thalamus in our brain is 454 - > responsible for sensory input, like it's a filter, right? 455 - > So what we perceive, if we I mean, I think you know, we we 456 - > know we cannot perceive everything, otherwise, we would 457 - > be overwhelmed all the time. 458 - > So we have a filter, a preconditioned filter that also, 459 - > you know, shapes our worldview.

460 - > And the what happens on psychedelics is um the 461 - > thalamocortical filtering is reduced, which means sensory 462 - > input can come easier in and easier out. 463 - > This might lead to some overwhelm for some people, but 464 - > if held well by a coach, everything is you know 465 - > stabilized. 466 - > But why I really want to mention this is because a lot of people, 467 - > not just entrepreneurs and founders, are so stuck in their 468 - > emotions, they're so stuck in their patterns and they're so 469 - > rigid about things they've been pressing down their entire life, 470 - > right?

471 - > Just so you don't have to deal with it. 472 - > And in that state, all this like dirt, not all, but there is the 473 - > potential for this to surface and be released because the 474 - > filters are open. 475 - > SPEAKER_00: I see. 476 - > SPEAKER_01: And that in itself is tremendously healing.

477 - > I always refer to it as like emptying the trash can, you 478 - > know, everything like at the bottom, and you can, if done 479 - > right, if in a safe setting, it really has the potential to 480 - > empty the trash can. 481 - > SPEAKER_00: And sometimes, like you mentioned the trash can. 482 - > Um, can we not be aware that we have trash? 483 - > You see what I mean?

484 - > SPEAKER_01: Of course. 485 - > And that's what your ego does to protect you, to protect your 486 - > identity. 487 - > Yes. 488 - > I mean, I'm I know I'm talking um big words, right?

489 - > Ego, and I mean ego also um when I refer to to ego, I don't mean 490 - > like you know, I am the best, but I'm referring to your set um 491 - > identity, your sense of self, yeah, exactly, exactly. 492 - > So, and that is very rigid for many because it gives us 493 - > stability. 494 - > SPEAKER_00: Interesting, and um can you as well um um avert this 495 - > kind of difference between um a guide, a coach, and um what do 496 - > you call this, a shaman? 497 - > What's the difference between those three?

498 - > SPEAKER_01: So a guide and a coach, I would say is the is a 499 - > different word for the same thing. 500 - > Yeah, so it's a person, you we use these terms more in the 501 - > Western world. 502 - > So it's a person that is supporting you throughout your 503 - > journey that can be, I mean, a guide, if if we're really 504 - > technical about the terms, a coach we think might have a 505 - > coaching license, right? 506 - > So I would say coach has a coaching license, and a guide 507 - > might have one but doesn't have to.

508 - > But in theory, they do the same thing, they sit with you, hold 509 - > you in safety. 510 - > A shaman is an indigenous name for a person that is that is 511 - > equipped with certain capabilities and that has a 512 - > certain standing in their society. 513 - > So it's really it is it is distinctly different. 514 - > Like I think that the the differentiation of what we want 515 - > to get here is indigenous culture versus westernized 516 - > approach.

517 - > Yeah, so that that's the difference. 518 - > So if you are so there are no shaman in uh in Europe, there 519 - > are shamans that travel. 520 - > Okay, and shamans, you know, they come from lineages, they 521 - > come from from long traditions, and they the a shamanic process, 522 - > in my understanding, is involving the shaman a lot more 523 - > because the shaman is a transportation medium, they help 524 - > you interpret things, versus in the more Western world, a coach 525 - > is here to sit with you, and their primary goal is to not 526 - > interfere at all, like to just hold the space for you, and the 527 - > shaman imposes their culture on you, but that's what they do.

528 - > Okay, right. 529 - > SPEAKER_00: Is that different um uh benefits or or risk? 530 - > Like um, do you have a different experience if you do it with a 531 - > guide or if you do it with a shaman, for example? 532 - > SPEAKER_01: Uh such important question.

533 - > Thank you for that. 534 - > Yes, a hundred percent. 535 - > So I have not yet experienced uh an experience with a shaman. 536 - > But what I can tell you is that, and that's actually one of the 537 - > pillar, one of the main reasons also why I founded Kinesi is 538 - > because now that the industry is getting more traction, there's 539 - > so much chalatanerie, I don't know how to say it in English, 540 - > like scam scams happening, and the amount of harm you can 541 - > produce within one session is unthinkable.

542 - > I I personally know of three cases that ended in suicide 543 - > after a specifically shamanic journey that was done by a fake 544 - > shaman who claimed to be a shaman, was not, and then could 545 - > not give the support and help the person needed. 546 - > And the person could yeah, could could not deal with it any 547 - > longer and was was returned returned to a home that 548 - > apparently you know it was just unbearable. 549 - > Because yeah, and that's really what also maybe at this point we 550 - > should really really state here that psychedelics are insanely 551 - > powerful and helpful tools, but at the same time insanely 552 - > dangerous.

553 - > So if you don't do it correctly, the damage can be irreversible. 554 - > I wouldn't say irreversible, but for some people they might it 555 - > might be irreversible. 556 - > And that to me is just mind-staggering how people are 557 - > out there just you know performing like shamanic 558 - > journeys where they have no idea and harm people, and that is 559 - > also why now with the size standard. 560 - > I'm we're building, I have a fantastic team.

561 - > We're building um your European framework for safe psychedelic 562 - > practice against we verify practitioners to ensure that 563 - > these things don't happen. 564 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's that's very important as much to 565 - > mention as well. 566 - > There's some danger linked to it, and we can we can go on it a 567 - > bit a bit later. 568 - > But can can you as well walk me through the the full arc of the 569 - > of the experience?

570 - > Like um um how does it start, like you have the the substance, 571 - > and then what's going on before and after as well. 572 - > SPEAKER_01: So the the to me personally, every good 573 - > psychedelic coaching experience starts already at least one 574 - > month before. 575 - > So you really start getting to know your coach, you have 576 - > intention setting, why do you do it, right? 577 - > What's going on in your life?

578 - > Because also life's your your your physique might be healthy 579 - > on the surface, everything might be fine, but there are also 580 - > personal contraindications, not just medical, that it might not 581 - > be the right time. 582 - > You know, maybe a personal huge catastrophic event just 583 - > happened, or you want to find a quick fix, then you shouldn't do 584 - > it, right? 585 - > But um, given that everything is okay, you are cleared, medically 586 - > cleared, then um you continue, you already start one month in 587 - > ahead, preparation time, super important, and there you go deep 588 - > and already understand what are your motives, why you want to do 589 - > this.

590 - > It's really self-exploration, and then when you do the 591 - > journey, it's usually over um two days. 592 - > So we now speak about one dosing, like one-time dosing. 593 - > Some do two dosings, but I'm speaking about one-time dosing. 594 - > Usually, let's say it's over a weekend, so you arrive on 595 - > Friday, then um you groove in, you ideally you do some breath 596 - > work or some body work.

597 - > I'm a huge fan of somatic work, so for me, these yeah, so these 598 - > really need to be combined because a psychedelic experience 599 - > is inherently a somatic experience, and yeah, you you 600 - > really want to wind down no phone, ideally no coffee, no bad 601 - > food, and then good night rest. 602 - > And then on the day, we call it also the dosing day, you ideally 603 - > don't eat breakfast, so the substance gets um absorbed 604 - > better, and then you are with your with your coach, and the 605 - > the surroundings are super super important.

606 - > So, here we call about we call it set and setting. 607 - > Maybe you've stumbled across that. 608 - > So, set is really your mindset, and we've prepared this all 609 - > along, this month of preparation, right? 610 - > So you're in a good mindset, and it's okay to have respect, it's 611 - > okay to be a little scared, right?

612 - > That's normal, especially if it's your first time, but you 613 - > shouldn't be panicking about it. 614 - > And that's also you know where the coach is there to guardrail 615 - > you exactly, and then um, yeah, you do some breath work um or 616 - > you know, grounding meditation really depends on what you want 617 - > to do. 618 - > And I sorry, the set, so this was the mindset, and then the 619 - > setting. 620 - > So the setting is the surrounding safe space, 621 - > beautifully, you know, with mattresses, greenery, maybe 622 - > flowers, so really where you nervous system can feel good, 623 - > and then you let you you take the um truffle, and how we do it 624 - > at Kinisi is that we cook or we boil the truffle, so you 625 - > actually prepare your own truffle, then you put it in a um 626 - > put hot water on it, put some lemon in it as well because that 627 - > helps you absorb it quicker.

628 - > We call those lemon tech, and yeah, then you ingest it, and 629 - > then you lay down, and you put on an eye mask, and then also 630 - > music starts. 631 - > So, as I just mentioned, with the thalmocortical filtering, 632 - > your senses are really heightened. 633 - > So, we really want to, you know, close your eyes so you don't 634 - > focus on anything outward but really inward. 635 - > And the music is a super important guide to move you 636 - > through faces, and your facilitator, your coach will be 637 - > sitting right next to you the entire time.

638 - > So, in case you want need to go to the bathroom, you want, you 639 - > know, have a question, you want to talk, they're always there. 640 - > But first and foremost, they're there to hold the space. 641 - > And for you know, for people who've never done it, they're 642 - > like, oh, but why is a person here? 643 - > You know, why do you need a person?

644 - > What is holding space, really? 645 - > But when you when you've when you do a psychedelic journey, 646 - > you will understand, you know, wow, we're sitting here. 647 - > I feel you, I feel your energy, you feel mine, right? 648 - > And and that's that's where we can actually uh relax and where 649 - > we can, you know, really let go.

650 - > And that's such a big part of the journey of a psychedelic 651 - > journey. 652 - > SPEAKER_00: How long is it uh the journey? 653 - > SPEAKER_01: So the journey round like the onset is around about 654 - > one to one and a half hours, pretty steep, and then you can 655 - > decide usually if you want to have a booster. 656 - > So if you want to go a little higher, depends also tolerance 657 - > varies, right?

658 - > And then the whole journey, like you peak around about after two 659 - > hours, and then the whole journey rounds about six to 660 - > eight hours, depending on the dose, and if you took a booster, 661 - > and then you you feel it taper off as like you you really feel 662 - > like oh it's getting less. 663 - > Like a lot of people say they have tingly feelings. 664 - > For some people, the truffle makes you a little nauseous, 665 - > especially if you haven't eaten in the morning.

666 - > Um, and yeah, but very, very open, very light. 667 - > But of course, not every journey is is light and happy peppy, 668 - > right? 669 - > But here I also want to say, especially with with journeys 670 - > where there is a little turbulence, where there might be 671 - > you know moments of disease, disease, these are the most 672 - > healing because you saw this, you faced something negative and 673 - > you overcame it. 674 - > And that's also why the coach is so important.

675 - > And after that, you it tapers off, you have a light breakfast, 676 - > and ideally, you know, because you're still high, you're still 677 - > in this space, so we don't really want you to talk that 678 - > much, so we really invite silence, but the coach stays 679 - > with you, and then you go to bed, and then ideally you 680 - > journal also if something comes up, or if you want to journal, 681 - > and then you the next day you talk with your therapy with your 682 - > coach about it, you know what happened, what did you see, and 683 - > that's it for the in-person part.

684 - > And then what then happens is my most favorite part, which is 685 - > integration, which is the part after your psychedelic journey, 686 - > and here, especially also now. 687 - > I mean, that's the angle that Kinesi takes. 688 - > It's for founders, CEOs, executives. 689 - > We are big on leveraging neuroplasticity.

690 - > So after psychedelic trip, your neuroplasticity or so brain's 691 - > available abil your brain's ability to rewire and 692 - > reorganized is extremely high for around about one month. 693 - > So habits that you want to get rid of or that you want to 694 - > instill are easier to implement. 695 - > Okay, you can, you know, we we are we're like your your 696 - > accountability bodies, and we help you really design or get 697 - > rid of things that you want to have and um shape your your next 698 - > month and really not just next months, but um your your 699 - > potentially your life.

700 - > SPEAKER_00: Do you have any examples of uh of uh of habits 701 - > that were changed, like uh quit smoking, for example, I guess is 702 - > the one. 703 - > SPEAKER_01: Quit smoking, um quit alcohol. 704 - > I mean it habits, you know, it it really depends on what your 705 - > intention is. 706 - > Like may some people some people um quit junk food or you know, 707 - > stop stop eating junk food, but some people also start a gym 708 - > habit or make it a habit to call their grandparents or their 709 - > parents once a week.

710 - > So it's really about what you want to instill, and really the 711 - > amount of what you can instill is unlimited, really. 712 - > It just really depends on what you want to do. 713 - > But I I one thing that I really want to highlight here is that a 714 - > lot of things that also a lot of things that we can't predict 715 - > happen. 716 - > For me, for example, I was smoking before, after my first 717 - > psychedelic journey, I stopped smoking.

718 - > I didn't even want to stop. 719 - > Now I can't I can't I can't. 720 - > Okay, I I didn't want to stop. 721 - > SPEAKER_00: Why because it was um um felt negatively 722 - > afterwards, or like you got you.

723 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I'm I'm really disgusted now. 724 - > Okay, and like and that's that's the thing, like we don't know a 725 - > lot, like we still don't know many things about the 726 - > functioning, but one of the like how I always say in a very 727 - > simplified form, or my explanation is psychedelics 728 - > strip away all the conditioning and all the like stories we tell 729 - > about ourselves, plus what we actually know is that it really 730 - > helps with addiction.

731 - > So some circuits in your brain are or some pathways are 732 - > disrupted. 733 - > So my connection to oh cigarette I like, disrupted, gone, don't 734 - > like it anymore. 735 - > SPEAKER_00: Super interesting. 736 - > Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and again, we don't know exactly what is 737 - > bad for us, but your your your mind will tell you as well.

738 - > SPEAKER_01: But you're you're and that's deeply that's 739 - > deep-rooted wisdom. 740 - > Our body knows what what what's good and what's bad. 741 - > SPEAKER_00: There's a good book on this, the um the body keeps 742 - > core. 743 - > Yeah, yeah.

744 - > SPEAKER_01: That's the Funda Cork, yes. 745 - > And he, I mean, uh he's he's an absolute legend in this space, 746 - > and that's also where I actually um found my my I would really 747 - > say my home with somatic work. 748 - > Yeah, it it's it's fundamental to everything I do now. 749 - > And somatic so soma is the body and um body work, really 750 - > movement.

751 - > SPEAKER_00: Very cool. 752 - > So just to recap, like the the full journey will be like you 753 - > have a a lot a long preparation at the beginning, then you have 754 - > the full journey experience with coaching and guidance as well, 755 - > uh, and then you have the big part on the on the integration 756 - > as well. 757 - > SPEAKER_01: That's uh the biggest uh important integration 758 - > and you know integration can last for me. 759 - > Integration is a way of being, okay, right?

760 - > And you can integrate every learning, you can integrate just 761 - > making it your own and weaving it into your life. 762 - > But we this the time frame we set is one month, ideally, it's 763 - > longer. 764 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, interesting. 765 - > And you you touched on this a bit uh earlier, but do you think 766 - > it can as well help leaders see themselves more clearly from a 767 - > leadership perspective?

768 - > You see, like um any high achievers or leaders or founders 769 - > or creator, can can they use this kind of therapy to see 770 - > themselves more clearly? 771 - > SPEAKER_01: Beautiful question, and yes, that's my home turf to 772 - > say it shortly. 773 - > Big disclaimer again, it's not for everyone, right? 774 - > So you have to be medically uh cleared before going into 775 - > something like this.

776 - > But if we say you are and you're you're an like a good candidate, 777 - > then absolutely I mean you know, I uh there are so many so many 778 - > use cases psychedelics are beneficial for, but I found them 779 - > is especially beneficial for leaders, founders, ex especially 780 - > the ones who've been building for a very long time, right? 781 - > So I mean there you you specifically asked about 782 - > leadership, yes, leadership, okay. 783 - > So for leadership, psychedelics, and when I say psychedelics, I 784 - > primarily mean mushroom, I'm I'm actually always referring to to 785 - > mushrooms or psilocybin, and your empathy increases, your 786 - > empathy for yourself and for your environment increases, so 787 - > you get you you can attune better to others, you can be a 788 - > better leader because you can see what the other per feel what 789 - > the other person needs better, and also leadership is in my 790 - > opinion, all about knowing thyself.

791 - > Okay, and you know, if you have huge blind spots, you're never 792 - > gonna be the leader you want to be. 793 - > So for me, leadership really starts with leading yourself, 794 - > and this starts with looking where you maybe don't want to 795 - > look, and that happens a lot of times in in journeys. 796 - > SPEAKER_00: And um, what about creativity? 797 - > Because I've heard some people are are going to choose this 798 - > direction to try to unlock some type of uh creativity, like 799 - > funders and uh people who are building startups, um, they're 800 - > trying those kind of substance to unlock and find a new um wave 801 - > or what's coming, or the or the the yeah, the creative element 802 - > to it.

803 - > What what do you say on this? 804 - > SPEAKER_01: So the the like I said before the flooding um or 805 - > the the the the the reduction of the default mode network, that 806 - > actually what happens in the brain, and there's a beautiful 807 - > graph. 808 - > I I think it'd be nice to to show that also, um, is your like 809 - > brain areas that usually never speak to each other are finally 810 - > but can speak to each other in these moments. 811 - > So you have extremely high cognitive flexibilities, which 812 - > means your experience or things you've thought about, you can 813 - > now connect in different ways.

814 - > You're connecting the dots that you've been building before, and 815 - > it is uh it it just helps you to think differently, it helps you 816 - > to zoom out, to snap out and get a bird's eye perspective for 817 - > things. 818 - > So it's very much used in creativity work, and I mean 819 - > Silicon Valley, right? 820 - > SPEAKER_00: I've heard of Steve Jobs. 821 - > Steve Job was an Elise thing or something like that.

822 - > Exactly. 823 - > SPEAKER_01: Steve Jobs, I mean Steve Jobs is the most prominent 824 - > example, but many in Silicon Valley, the legend goes that 825 - > most Silicon Valley is built on people microdosing. 826 - > SPEAKER_00: Is it? 827 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's it's it's really like there is 828 - > something to it, and here disclaimer again, like 829 - > microdosing is a whole different different topic, but it it does 830 - > it is very powerful for creativity work.

831 - > SPEAKER_00: Different from uh from the full journey. 832 - > It's uh or is it one and is it one and another, like 833 - > microdosing or full dosing? 834 - > Uh is it um one other, or is it can be both, or whatsoever? 835 - > SPEAKER_01: So people you mean that you do a big journey and 836 - > then afterwards do microdosing?

837 - > Many people do that. 838 - > SPEAKER_00: People who only microdose and then don't do a 839 - > full dose. 840 - > SPEAKER_01: Correct. 841 - > Yeah, so many people actually do micro at least I I know, I mean 842 - > I also am in the bubble, and I know many that do microdosing, 843 - > and here also, I mean the the evidence on microdosing is not 844 - > consistent at all.

845 - > Like really, we there are no no studies out there yet that 846 - > actually can make sophisticated claims. 847 - > However, there's a huge body of anecdotal evidence, and also in 848 - > my circle, um, of also especially people founders with 849 - > burnout getting out of burnout with microdosing. 850 - > SPEAKER_00: Could be a placebo. 851 - > SPEAKER_01: Could be.

852 - > Could be, but but um yeah, I I I know I know multiple, so um, 853 - > yeah, okay, no interesting. 854 - > SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, so you mentioned about founders, about 855 - > uh high performers, about like uh I I want as well to come back 856 - > to this notion of of control, okay? 857 - > And why is it so relevant for for funders, executives, and 858 - > people who are building things as well? 859 - > Why is it so important to do this kind of work?

860 - > Could be with substance, could be without substance as well, 861 - > but why is it so important to to to to go through this journey of 862 - > self-reflection as well? 863 - > What do you think? 864 - > SPEAKER_01: I have so much to say that it's um and I I think 865 - > I'm gonna say something controversial. 866 - > SPEAKER_03: There you go.

867 - > SPEAKER_01: But in my experience, in my personal 868 - > experience, most founders, serious founders have been in 869 - > for a long time, and entrepreneurs, CEOs that go far 870 - > have more experienced more trauma than the general 871 - > population. 872 - > SPEAKER_03: Okay. 873 - > SPEAKER_01: And when I say trauma here, do you know that 874 - > like do you know the difference between small tea trauma and big 875 - > T trauma? 876 - > SPEAKER_00: For me, no, it's a trauma.

877 - > It's a trauma. 878 - > SPEAKER_01: So really cool distinction. 879 - > There's the small T trauma, which is basically every 880 - > everyday trauma, like every one of us carries trauma, right? 881 - > But uh where you had were emotionally neglected, you were 882 - > bullied, or so, you know, and then there's big T trauma, 883 - > sexual abuse, many, many things, especially pertaining to 884 - > childhood, war, you know, the like really catastrophic, 885 - > objectively catastrophic things.

886 - > And in my observation, founders have more of this big T trauma 887 - > compared to the general population. 888 - > And why I'm saying this right now is because uh big trauma is 889 - > destabilizing. 890 - > Trauma derails you, it destabilizes you. 891 - > And if you have drive, if you have control, if you can, you 892 - > know, manage something, you are outwardly fixing the chaos that 893 - > is inside of you.

894 - > Okay, you have a grip, you have the control on the outside, and 895 - > that you know builds insane companies. 896 - > That is a lot of success, right? 897 - > But is it also your emotional well-being? 898 - > I don't think so.

899 - > SPEAKER_00: So interesting because yeah, because I I feel 900 - > as well that you can reach us kind of of help with coaches, 901 - > with uh therapy, with uh of course as well with uh it could 902 - > be with uh substances or without substances, but this kind of uh 903 - > the main pattern I see, and correct me if I'm wrong, is this 904 - > element of uh of uh self-reflection, knowing 905 - > yourself better and dealing with your own stuff, if I don't want 906 - > to swear here, um, to make sure you can if you want to manage 907 - > outside, you need to manage inside.

908 - > Correct. 909 - > SPEAKER_01: And I think that's very important for any leaders, 910 - > or actually anyone for anyone to to not just like I said, I mean 911 - > I have this slogan, I have had it on my wall for like ever. 912 - > In order to be a great leader, you have to lead yourself first. 913 - > And I'm I you know it it's it's not just about leader leadership 914 - > and people, aligning people, you know, moving towards the shared 915 - > mission, but it's also about your physical and emotional 916 - > health and the physical and emotional health of your 917 - > surroundings, of your loved ones.

918 - > Because if you're dysregulated, your surroundings will be 919 - > dregulated. 920 - > 100%. 921 - > We're social animals, right? 922 - > SPEAKER_00: That's uh that's that's that's interesting.

923 - > And um yeah, so I understand everyone needs to do to do to do 924 - > this work um because of uh self-reflection and and and and 925 - > as well, yeah, that's what I wanted to go. 926 - > Um, because I've heard this uh this notion of um uh people who 927 - > are using substances are called uh psychonauts. 928 - > And I I I love this notion because uh you have the 929 - > astronauts who are going to the to the moon, and then you have 930 - > the psychonaut, the one which are going into the the the into 931 - > your it's a journey in your psych.

932 - > I don't say it. 933 - > What do you what do you think of this? 934 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I also like the term psychonaut at the same 935 - > time. 936 - > I I think it it the psychonaut also pertains to people that you 937 - > know you you go inward, yes, but you also go um somewhere where 938 - > we we can't explain, right?

939 - > If you and psychonauts, I mean I don't know what the clear 940 - > definition of a psychonaut is, but if you have a certain high 941 - > enough dose, a lot of times we talk about ego dissolution, like 942 - > you were you're you're just float in space, literally, that 943 - > is the feeling. 944 - > I mean, a lot of times you can't also explain these um these 945 - > things are called ineffable experiences. 946 - > Ineffable means not to be put in words, you can't describe it.

947 - > And interestingly, ineffable experiences are the most 948 - > healing. 949 - > And here we also touch on spirituality because in these 950 - > moments you understand or you you feel that your body is 951 - > something, but you are also somewhere else, right? 952 - > So there is this like you're really cr dancing on a barrier 953 - > of what is and what isn't. 954 - > SPEAKER_00: That's a yeah, I I yeah.

955 - > When what I I've done some some uh breath work, uh holotropic 956 - > breath work, and I felt this kind of uh line between um the 957 - > science, your your body control, and the spirituality when you 958 - > start to experience different things, you start to to see or 959 - > talk to people, and uh and uh and your mind starts to talk to 960 - > you as well. 961 - > And I I don't know, it was very hard to because I'm a very big 962 - > skeptic on this, I was a very big skeptic on this uh until I 963 - > saw the the how powerful it can be, and and I was like, Oh, we 964 - > have no freaking clue of what's going on.

965 - > Exactly. 966 - > We are just touching the top of the iceberg, but if you go into 967 - > your mind, it's just mind-blowing. 968 - > That's that's my my experience behind it. 969 - > And you mentioned about the the the does, and uh depending on 970 - > the doors that you take, you may have different experience.

971 - > What's the the typical does? 972 - > And can you extend a bit more into the um the experience on 973 - > the on I think it's called the heroic does, like when you go 974 - > into a big one, but like start with the micro dose, the the 975 - > does and then the big does. 976 - > SPEAKER_01: Okay, so there are since we are talking about 977 - > mushrooms and truffles, we also can differentiate between fresh 978 - > mushroom and dry mushroom, and fresh truffle and dry truffle.

979 - > So don't quote me on any of these specifically, and you we 980 - > can, you know, and put the the the conversions also in the show 981 - > notes, but I'm talking now about dry mushroom. 982 - > Okay, okay, dry mushroom roundabout uh stuff. 983 - > If you do it for the first time, I always prefer to go on a lower 984 - > dose for people who do it the first time because you just 985 - > never know. 986 - > You can always, you know, do a little redose, but I always 987 - > prefer to go lower, which would be round about one and a half 988 - > gram to two gram.

989 - > SPEAKER_03: Okay. 990 - > SPEAKER_01: Usually people would say, yeah, or I I think usually 991 - > it's two and a half gram, but I would I prefer a little lower 992 - > dried mushroom. 993 - > That's uh journey, a hero's journey. 994 - > We say is five gram and the both.

995 - > Okay, but this is also highly dependent on how potent is the 996 - > mushroom, you know, because we don't know, unless you really 997 - > take um synthetically synthesized um psilocybin, then 998 - > you know, and um your constituent, how much do you 999 - > tolerate? 1000 - > Like, is your I'm I have so little tolerance. 1001 - > Like if I take a fourth of a microdose, I I feel it properly, 1002 - > right? 1003 - > SPEAKER_00: So you won't recommend people to jump 1004 - > straight to five.

1005 - > SPEAKER_01: Not at all, not at all. 1006 - > No, no, and a microdose would be a tenth, officially like a tenth 1007 - > of a full dose. 1008 - > And yeah, what is a full dose for you? 1009 - > And then for me, it would not be a tenth, but a fourth of a 1010 - > tenth.

1011 - > Yeah, cool. 1012 - > SPEAKER_00: So you you you're saying the um the the um you you 1013 - > don't recommend the heroic dose to anyone just starting on the 1014 - > ones. 1015 - > Correct. 1016 - > SPEAKER_01: I warn against it, yeah, really.

1017 - > It it can be it can be so way way too overwhelming. 1018 - > Of course, if people some people can handle it, I would say 1019 - > majority of people can't, so don't do it. 1020 - > Okay, yeah. 1021 - > SPEAKER_00: I I've heard of of some people just losing sense of 1022 - > self and just losing the sense that they took something.

1023 - > Uh and if you don't have any guide or if they do it by 1024 - > themselves, it can be quite dangerous, I guess. 1025 - > Yeah. 1026 - > SPEAKER_01: Yes, and coming back to set and setting, right? 1027 - > If you are not in a safe environment with somebody you 1028 - > trust, you can really easily spiral, and this can also um 1029 - > trigger uh psychosis in certain people.

1030 - > And once you had a psychosis, there's no way back. 1031 - > So, like it's it's like I said, it's really dangerous if done 1032 - > wrong. 1033 - > unknown: Yeah. 1034 - > SPEAKER_00: So you you you're also quite um um focused on the 1035 - > on the um on the preparation.

1036 - > Uh of course, no, I'm I'm not saying like you guys do a heroic 1037 - > dose, and uh I understand that's not something that that you do, 1038 - > but you really focus on the on the preparation, which is a very 1039 - > important part, and as well the integration post uh post 1040 - > post-journey, and why is it so important this kind of of uh of 1041 - > preparation and integration as well? 1042 - > That that's that's key, I guess. 1043 - > SPEAKER_01: No, yeah, it's so important because it readies 1044 - > your mind and your system and your environment.

1045 - > Like we also do in preparation, we also um always mention about 1046 - > your social circle. 1047 - > One of the biggest predictors if a journey is gonna be, you know, 1048 - > beneficial for a long time is also your social connections and 1049 - > the what happens when you go home, yeah, and how safe you are 1050 - > there. 1051 - > And um yeah, in the preparation, yeah. 1052 - > I always say it's like you you create a map, a map, a mental 1053 - > map of your topics, and when you're in the journey, which it 1054 - > basically just opens a window, it's a catalyst, but the journey 1055 - > itself, the substance itself, doesn't do anything, it just 1056 - > opens a window.

1057 - > And if you did preparation properly, you have a map, and 1058 - > then you can put the pins into the map, right? 1059 - > And connect the dots in your mind, in your mind, yeah, and 1060 - > the integration is really bringing all of that back home, 1061 - > integrating it into your life, and also very important to note. 1062 - > We also the research also just found out that a lot of the aha 1063 - > moments, a lot of the I mean, many people do it to have 1064 - > breakthroughs, right?

1065 - > But a lot of the aha moments come in the days and weeks after 1066 - > the journey, not during the journey. 1067 - > So why is that? 1068 - > SPEAKER_00: Why is it uh after? 1069 - > You don't know.

1070 - > SPEAKER_01: I don't know, but your your brain is still 1071 - > recalibrating. 1072 - > SPEAKER_00: Trying to make sense of what's what happened, yeah. 1073 - > SPEAKER_01: Exactly, and like you know the the heightened 1074 - > Europlasticity, like your brain is really in the face of extreme 1075 - > potential to reorder and recalibrate, and there things 1076 - > just happen, and then you walk, or like you know, you have 1077 - > certain triggers, you walk on the street, and all of a sudden 1078 - > you remember something like oh, you know.

1079 - > So that's also why it's so important to have a structured 1080 - > process for integration, so you also create the space for these 1081 - > things to come. 1082 - > So don't go back to work immediately after a psychedelic 1083 - > journey, don't you know, rush back in because it will be just 1084 - > first of all, most likely overwhelming for your system, 1085 - > and second, you are cutting the potential to receive more of 1086 - > these aha moments. 1087 - > SPEAKER_00: And um and you also mentioned quite a few times 1088 - > during during this uh this uh recording that you will not 1089 - > recommend um psychedelic to to everyone, and who should stay 1090 - > away from psychedelic work, like who literally you say like no, 1091 - > you're not a good fit.

1092 - > SPEAKER_01: There are there are the the most um obvious ones, 1093 - > which are if you are bipolar or schizophrenic, or have that in 1094 - > your immediate family, or if you have cardiovascular problems. 1095 - > So these are like the main things, and other than that, 1096 - > there are like I said, also environmental factors like where 1097 - > are you in your life right now, but also are you on 1098 - > antidepressants? 1099 - > Are you taking other subs and are you taking other 1100 - > medications?

1101 - > So that's why it's so important to have a medical screening 1102 - > because an MD will tell you yes or no based on all their life's 1103 - > experience. 1104 - > SPEAKER_00: Interesting. 1105 - > And what what's um do you see the difference as well being um 1106 - > just curious and being ready? 1107 - > What's the difference?

1108 - > Like do you see some people they are very curious and say, okay, 1109 - > you are curious, that's good, but I don't think you're ready. 1110 - > SPEAKER_01: That's a great question. 1111 - > If I think about it, for me being curious is being ready. 1112 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay, yes.

1113 - > It's a calling, or that's something correct. 1114 - > SPEAKER_01: That is like literally in in the industry we 1115 - > say it's a calling. 1116 - > And if you feel that calling, you know, like and that's also 1117 - > what I always tell people when they're like, oh, am I ready? 1118 - > Am I not ready?

1119 - > I'm like, you know, like listen, like you know, and even if 1120 - > you're a little scared, because I mean you have respect for 1121 - > these substance, you have no idea what's gonna happen. 1122 - > You can still be ready, right? 1123 - > So yeah. 1124 - > SPEAKER_00: And um what what what questions should um should 1125 - > people ask their uh guide or coach uh before the journey?

1126 - > As well to understand if they are ready or not, or as well to 1127 - > understand like if the um if the guide is not uh a scammer, if 1128 - > he's not uh he's a real shaman or real guide and so on, any 1129 - > question that we recommend here? 1130 - > SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, yeah, very important. 1131 - > So I would clearly always always just work with people in my 1132 - > field of recommendation, like if I have a direct recommendation, 1133 - > because it's really hard to know.

1134 - > But I would if if there's no recommendation you have in your 1135 - > immediate surroundings, then I would um always ask for 1136 - > references. 1137 - > I would always ask, can I call a client of yours and have a 1138 - > conversation with that person for how long have you been doing 1139 - > this? 1140 - > You know, what is your what is your background? 1141 - > Ideally, that person has a background in therapy.

1142 - > Ideally, it's not always the case. 1143 - > And I would also just ask, you know, how many times have you 1144 - > have you facilitated? 1145 - > But here you have to trust that the answer of this person is 1146 - > correct, you know, that they they don't scam you. 1147 - > So I think really making these reference calls is very 1148 - > important.

1149 - > And there are certain websites where you can actually already 1150 - > see um people listed with a huge caveat, and this is also why 1151 - > we're building size standard. 1152 - > People right now on especially European, actually global 1153 - > websites are listed, they're not checked, it's just you set up 1154 - > your own profile. 1155 - > Of course, you're gonna say great things about yourself, 1156 - > right? 1157 - > But what we are building at Sci Standard is really we verify 1158 - > each practitioner that you will see on our website against the 1159 - > four maybe more layer, but now four-layer framework to be 1160 - > approved.

1161 - > SPEAKER_00: So I guess company like yours will as well uh 1162 - > pre-select those kind of guides as well and make the reference 1163 - > check and so on to ensure like a quality or those kind of thing. 1164 - > SPEAKER_01: Correct, because safety is the number one 1165 - > priority in this industry and it's not given right now. 1166 - > SPEAKER_00: That's that's that's that that's important, yeah. 1167 - > That's um and um yeah, that's that's interesting.

1168 - > And is there any anything around um psychedelic space that people 1169 - > are not um talking about? 1170 - > Like something like I understand like it's there's a big stigma, 1171 - > there's a lot of uh of taboo. 1172 - > Um, but do you think is is there any angle that people are not 1173 - > honest about about psychedelic? 1174 - > SPEAKER_01: How dangerous it is.

1175 - > Okay, yeah. 1176 - > I I think there is especially in the psychedelic bubble, you 1177 - > always hear about you know the success stories, treating PTSD, 1178 - > treating depression, having this breakthrough, but you don't hear 1179 - > about all the cases that go wrong. 1180 - > So yeah, that that is for me the biggest, biggest problem, also, 1181 - > because few people speak about that. 1182 - > SPEAKER_00: So it's dangerous, it's important to adopt it.

1183 - > SPEAKER_01: It is it it it it is really dangerous, but it is also 1184 - > very powerful if done right. 1185 - > SPEAKER_00: Powerful can be uh two-sided, powerful, negative, 1186 - > or powerful positive as well. 1187 - > SPEAKER_01: Exactly. 1188 - > And that's also like psychedelics or non-specific 1189 - > amplifiers, that means they amplify whatever is there right 1190 - > now, okay.

1191 - > Down or up. 1192 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 1193 - > And where do you draw the line between coaching, therapy, and 1194 - > the medicine? 1195 - > SPEAKER_01: Do you have a line between those three, or is it um 1196 - > is it you mean in the context of a person wanting to do a 1197 - > journey?

1198 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah. 1199 - > SPEAKER_01: So coaching, you know, like like we said, therapy 1200 - > is really with a therapist in psychedelic assisted therapy, 1201 - > you can only do in a clinical setting so far. 1202 - > So for but let's say we say it's about the person, it's uh an 1203 - > individual that can safely guide you. 1204 - > They it it's a synod it's a synergy between the medicine and 1205 - > the person guiding you.

1206 - > But the it I would say uh you should always always have a 1207 - > person there that you trust and that guides you. 1208 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay. 1209 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 1210 - > SPEAKER_00: And um do you feel that psychedelic can be called a 1211 - > new uh medicine?

1212 - > SPEAKER_01: Clearly, it is it is called a medicine. 1213 - > It is there are thousands of cases where people are treated 1214 - > for depression, anxiety, substance use disorder, really, 1215 - > especially with a substance called ibogaine. 1216 - > People are healed, treated all over the world, that especially 1217 - > the depression case, right, that have been using antidepressants 1218 - > that have all other sides of contraindications. 1219 - > I'm not bashing on them, like it's really important that we 1220 - > have these types of medications.

1221 - > But if there's an alternative that gets you off taking 1222 - > something for every day of your life, yeah, then I think it is 1223 - > worth looking into it. 1224 - > And we see this happening all over the world. 1225 - > SPEAKER_00: That's interesting. 1226 - > And what what do you think the future looked like for 1227 - > psychedelic?

1228 - > Do you think it's uh it's positively positive or it's uh 1229 - > it's uh not going in the right direction? 1230 - > SPEAKER_01: For for around about 20, 10, 15 years, we have been 1231 - > in a phase that's called psychedelic renaissance because 1232 - > very long there has been a ban or almost almost like a ban to 1233 - > do research on these substances. 1234 - > Um maybe it's interesting to know it's it's called the drug, 1235 - > uh, the war on drugs, which basically was was initiated by 1236 - > the Nixon administration back in the US because um the Vietnam 1237 - > War was going on and people were starting to use LSD, and then 1238 - > they felt so connected and they were like, okay, wow, we're 1239 - > we're one society, we're one planet, right?

1240 - > We don't want to go to war. 1241 - > And that didn't work for the administration, right? 1242 - > So there was a huge, I mean, this is all public knowledge 1243 - > now, right? 1244 - > And since then there have been bans on researching on these 1245 - > substances, and hence there has it has been pushed back for so 1246 - > many years, but now, like in the two in the 2000s, especially 1247 - > 2010s, it increased again the research.

1248 - > And um, yeah, I mean, Trump two or three weeks ago signed an 1249 - > executive order, very cautious about anything that Trump does, 1250 - > but it is a huge legitimization that the president of the United 1251 - > States in the Oval Office speaks about psychedelics in a healing 1252 - > capacity, in a medicine capacity, and that in itself I 1253 - > find very positive. 1254 - > We don't know how it's gonna materialize, but that in and of 1255 - > itself I find brilliant.

1256 - > SPEAKER_00: I've I've heard about uh about the um the war on 1257 - > drugs that you that you mentioned. 1258 - > I think it was a a documentary on Netflix as well, books on uh 1259 - > um Michael Poland. 1260 - > Yeah, yeah. 1261 - > And uh I found it was because there's a science behind, it's 1262 - > not only about uh recreational drugs, but there's a full story 1263 - > and the full science behind all those kind of substances.

1264 - > Uh and funny enough, um, if I'm not wrong, um LSD was created in 1265 - > uh Zurich or was it in Bale? 1266 - > SPEAKER_01: Um Albert Albert Albert Hoffmann, yeah. 1267 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah. 1268 - > Where was it?

1269 - > Was it in Zurich or Basel Basel? 1270 - > Basel, yeah. 1271 - > SPEAKER_01: Switzerland for sure. 1272 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Switzerland.

1273 - > Yeah, but you don't think about uh uh those kind of of uh of 1274 - > compounds being created in Switzerland, yeah. 1275 - > SPEAKER_01: Not at all, and actually there was just um 1276 - > bicycle day. 1277 - > I don't know if you if you know that. 1278 - > Um it's like the it's called bicycle day because um Albert 1279 - > Hoffman he synthesized it and and took it, and it was a very 1280 - > high like he had no idea, right?

1281 - > But then he he rode back home his bicycle and was you know 1282 - > like in a crazy dimension. 1283 - > So um, yeah, there's a every year I I forgot the day, no, but 1284 - > it's in April. 1285 - > Um yeah, honoring that. 1286 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think like there's um so you're you're 1287 - > thinking the the future on of uh of psychedelic looks promising.

1288 - > Maybe it's still slow, but uh promising. 1289 - > SPEAKER_01: It's promising and it has never been more 1290 - > promising. 1291 - > I mean, I in the beginning I mentioned the compassionate use 1292 - > program in Germany. 1293 - > We're seeing regulations changing in the Czech Republic, 1294 - > Australia is already on the forefront.

1295 - > Switzerland is in Europe the number one country that has been 1296 - > doing this for I think yeah, 10, 20, 20 years, something. 1297 - > They're really when it comes to psychedelic assisted therapy. 1298 - > We're seeing a lot of changes now and at an unprecedented 1299 - > rate, and research coming out at an unprecedented rate, and I'm 1300 - > very optimistic. 1301 - > SPEAKER_00: And for you, what's your vision?

1302 - > Where do you see the the this field in 10 years? 1303 - > SPEAKER_01: My personal vision is that every person that needs 1304 - > alternative treatment that might include psychedelics has access 1305 - > and can afford it in a safe way. 1306 - > SPEAKER_00: Interesting. 1307 - > Are you saying that today the psychedelic therapy is only 1308 - > reserved to a certain class level because it's actually 1309 - > quite expensive?

1310 - > SPEAKER_01: Yes. 1311 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay. 1312 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there you go. 1313 - > SPEAKER_00: So make it to make it more popular and more 1314 - > affordable.

1315 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to make it to make it mainstream. 1316 - > But I I don't like the word mainstream because for me that 1317 - > doesn't include safety. 1318 - > Make it safely available and accessible to the people in 1319 - > need, and a lot of the times the people in need are those who 1320 - > cannot afford it. 1321 - > SPEAKER_00: Do you see a future where you go to the to the 1322 - > apothèque, um what do you call the pharmacy and you you can buy 1323 - > mushrooms?

1324 - > SPEAKER_01: I would not hope for that. 1325 - > Okay, because then the because then the the abuse potential I 1326 - > think would still be be high. 1327 - > But I think you should be able to do it in a safe setting 1328 - > because for me, if you want to use them in a in a therapeutic 1329 - > way, you cannot separate this from a therapeutic or from a 1330 - > coaching process, and that always includes another person 1331 - > and a set like a setting. 1332 - > SPEAKER_00: Or a doctor office, like uh a guide office where you 1333 - > go in a I mean interesting, okay.

1334 - > And uh and and more on the on a on a practical way as we are 1335 - > ramping up the we are closing the the podcast, more on a 1336 - > practical way, and for curious listening uh listening uh today, 1337 - > um just you can answer quite fast. 1338 - > Uh so one misconception about psychedelic that you have in 1339 - > mind. 1340 - > SPEAKER_01: That it's a quick fix. 1341 - > SPEAKER_00: That is a quick fix, okay.

1342 - > It's not a quick fix. 1343 - > unknown: No. 1344 - > SPEAKER_01: It uh for people who think it might be a quick fix 1345 - > and they take it, it might even make things worse because they 1346 - > see the things that they're unwilling to see in reality. 1347 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay.

1348 - > SPEAKER_01: One misconception about coaching that the coach 1349 - > has to tell you what to do. 1350 - > SPEAKER_00: They don't tell you anything. 1351 - > SPEAKER_01: No. 1352 - > SPEAKER_00: Because you have to do the work yourself.

1353 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they should just hold the space. 1354 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay. 1355 - > And one practice that we recommend everyone listening to 1356 - > do now. 1357 - > SPEAKER_01: Daily practice something daily, like a 1358 - > practical, yeah.

1359 - > My all-time favorite and makes a lot of people cringe, is 1360 - > shaking. 1361 - > Shaking. 1362 - > Shaking. 1363 - > Whenever you feel overwhelmed, stressed, when things are just 1364 - > too much, it's most likely because your system is 1365 - > stagnating and you're stuck in a hurry.

1366 - > Get up, shake for 10 seconds. 1367 - > Should I shake? 1368 - > Shake. 1369 - > Yeah.

1370 - > Should I shake it shake? 1371 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay. 1372 - > Yeah. 1373 - > Jump and shake.

1374 - > Yeah. 1375 - > Okay. 1376 - > SPEAKER_01: Shaking because I mean, oh, you don't hear me. 1377 - > SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

1378 - > SPEAKER_01: That is a prime somatic reset for you. 1379 - > And I want to share a story here. 1380 - > Like, how did we find out? 1381 - > Um, you also find it in the body keeps the score with Bessel van 1382 - > der Koge.

1383 - > How did we find out about it? 1384 - > Researchers were observing, maybe I'm saying the wrong 1385 - > animal now, but like I think antelopes in the desert that 1386 - > were hunted by lions. 1387 - > And imagine you're an antelope being hunted by a lion. 1388 - > You think you're gonna die.

1389 - > You're nervous. 1390 - > And when the antelopes could flee, like they survived, 1391 - > researchers saw that they were shaking. 1392 - > Okay, they started to shake. 1393 - > And a couple of moments later, they were again with the other 1394 - > antelopes, like nothing has happened.

1395 - > And then research on this started, and a good shake, 10 1396 - > seconds, or put on your favorite song, a good shake has a 1397 - > tremendous power to ground you and to just make you go through 1398 - > your life in a way, way more grounded and stable way. 1399 - > SPEAKER_00: Super interesting. 1400 - > I was expecting like a meditation or by focus, like, 1401 - > no, let's shake. 1402 - > Okay, let's go.

1403 - > I was scared that you were going to like let's all take mushroom 1404 - > every day. 1405 - > No, no, no, no, no. 1406 - > SPEAKER_01: So just could shake if a listener takes away one 1407 - > thing of this episode, shake, shake, really shake, do it in 1408 - > the bathroom, do it when you know, between a call, you will 1409 - > see, you will see the benefits. 1410 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's shake.

1411 - > And um, and what do you think about um journaling? 1412 - > Do you have like one journal question that you will focus 1413 - > people on? 1414 - > SPEAKER_01: We didn't even talk about my protocols. 1415 - > Come closer.

1416 - > Um I know that you shake. 1417 - > I know that you shake babies. 1418 - > Um, so what I love, and this is not invented by me, but it's um 1419 - > a practice that's called morning pages. 1420 - > So I forgot her last name, Julie.

1421 - > It's like a really great the artist within Julie something, 1422 - > and basically there she says every morning, just take a 1423 - > journal and just write whatever comes to your mind. 1424 - > Okay, and we talked about emptying the trash can before. 1425 - > For me, this is really a way of emptying the trash can. 1426 - > I just take my journal and write.

1427 - > I don't, you know, don't prompt because that's too directive 1428 - > again. 1429 - > I just give out whatever comes out in that moment, and that is 1430 - > very cleansing to me. 1431 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay, so just to it's a way to clean the trash, 1432 - > but um just like clean your mind in a way. 1433 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or another actually, one one by Karl Jung 1434 - > that I love, but this is more on for people that maybe have been 1435 - > doing this a little longer, is journaling.

1436 - > Is what do you want to bring to this world? 1437 - > What do you want to birth to this world? 1438 - > SPEAKER_00: Super cool. 1439 - > And um, for anyone listening, if they want to learn more about uh 1440 - > about psychedelic, about uh coaching, about you or anything, 1441 - > like what do you recommend?

1442 - > Any resources, any websites? 1443 - > What do you recommend here? 1444 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um for sure you can just follow me on 1445 - > LinkedIn, right? 1446 - > I post quite a bit about all these things, Sophie J.

1447 - > Spitzer, and um yeah, other so they're great resources online 1448 - > already, but one that I always recommend is maps because it's 1449 - > pretty pretty uh pretty big maps, but also I mean you have 1450 - > many many research and research institutions institutions that's 1451 - > public it, but one of my favorites, and this is also um 1452 - > now positioning the the company that I'm with, Pink Elephant, 1453 - > um, is States of Mind. 1454 - > So Statofmind.com is a platform where you get the latest 1455 - > research, the latest, really translating psychedelics for 1456 - > curious, for psychedelic curious, so statesofmind.

com and 1457 - > you find great articles, great resources there. 1458 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay. 1459 - > And one my last last question if you had a big billboard in the 1460 - > middle of um Vienna or Berlin or Lisbon where anyone could read 1461 - > on this kind of billboard, what would you put on it? 1462 - > SPEAKER_01: You are enough.

1463 - > SPEAKER_00: You are enough. 1464 - > I love it. 1465 - > Excellent. 1466 - > But um we're going to to wrap things up.

1467 - > Um thank you so much for coming. 1468 - > I really enjoy the the conversation. 1469 - > Um again, I was very curious to hear more about uh about this 1470 - > this topic, um, more to to understand and uh and uh being 1471 - > curious about uh about this topic that we we keep hearing on 1472 - > on a lot of different um uh media and and podcasts and so 1473 - > on. 1474 - > And I've learned a lot, so thank you so much.

1475 - > Um now I know that I'm going to to shake more. 1476 - > Yes, but uh but yeah, for for everyone listening, thank you 1477 - > for for being here. 1478 - > Um you see like a psychedelic and coaching and therapy can be 1479 - > very healing. 1480 - > That's also very important to mention it's also very it can be 1481 - > very dangerous, uh, so that's something which uh which we 1482 - > should never forget.

1483 - > But this kind of uh self-reflection, this kind of 1484 - > self-work to make sure we we are we are okay and we are we are 1485 - > all as you mentioned, we are you are enough, we are enough, but 1486 - > we also need to to to do this kind of work internally. 1487 - > I think that's very important and very powerful. 1488 - > So that's that would be the the first step towards towards this 1489 - > journey. 1490 - > But um, yeah, thanks again for for for being here and I see you 1491 - > next time.

1492 - > SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me. 1493 - > SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.