Family Trauma & Business Success!

Speaker A: You know, I'd say there's many paths in life. There's many paths, and, you know, sometimes, you know, the road less traveled might be a better one than the one that other people are telling you to take. Um, so, you know, your parents are well intended, but, you know, I think, you know, kids feeling pressure to go to college right away and get into a great college is such a, um, uh, it's such a distraction from young people finding their true north, finding their passions and their interests.

Speaker B: Welcome to Insights into Success. We're with your host, Paul Dodds. We hope to educate, inspire, and motivate you to achieve your own personal success. We talk to guests from all around the world, from a variety of walks of life, to hear the realities of their own, um, journey to success. Success. What challenges have they faced? How have they coped with failure? And what have been the keys or will be the keys to their own success? In our Read to Succeed interviews, we talk books that have inspired our guests, and for some, they share their secrets to marketing success. Join us as we give you Insights into success. All right, uh, well, welcome to Insights into Success, where today my special guest is Howard Steinberg. Howard, thank you so much for coming on. I'm really looking forward to talking to you and understanding a bit more about your story, but I think first, just to give people a bit of an idea about who you are, I think if I was to summarize and say that you have been a very successful entrepreneur, you're an author, and we're about to talk about that book, uh, you also do mentoring, and you're an advocate. So I just wonder if you could start off, really, by just telling us about your book and what the motivation was for it.

Speaker A: Well, um, believe it or not, it was kind of was a calling. Um, I. I was an entrepreneur for most of my life. I was a husband for almost all of my adult life and a father. And all those things started to come apart several, um, years ago, and my. A very long, um, partnership finally frayed and divorced. I got played out of my start, my second startup. Um, and, uh, I was feeling kind of untethered from the world. My kids had grown up, and so I. I always identified, uh, with these roles that I played in the world, and it's how I defined myself. And as those started to loosen and, um, I was confused. I was trying to start yet another company, and I just couldn't do it. Um, I didn't feel that conviction, that inevitability, um, that I once had, and that kind of triggered an investigation. Like, okay, if I'm not going to be an entrepreneur yet again, and I'm no longer a husband and my kids are growing up, who am I? And, um, I started. I learned transcendental meditation to kind of try to quiet my mind and listen to intuition, which was a whole new concept for me. Since I was a child. I've just been going and working and working and working and never had, um, a sense of having free choice in deter. In determining what to do or even who I am. And so that's when, um, the investigation started. And, um, I learned a lot. And in that process, um, as I am and if it's never over, I said, I've got a story to tell. And as I share this with people, they encourage me and, um, that you've got to share more of this. And I just started writing. I just started writing. And since a memoir can be sort of chronological, it was easy to just go from the beginning, um, to the present. And, uh, it wasn't quite that simple. But that's what led me to, um, tell my story, Confessions of a Problem Solver.

Speaker B: And so for you, the motivation for the book, was it more about sort of working through your own therapy? Like, did you have any grand designs in terms of lots of people reading the book, or was it more just about you and you, as I say, sort of going through your own therapy, as it were?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, um, it's a good question. It started more just therapeutically, you know, just cathartic exercise of getting. Getting this all out. Like, even if it doesn't get published, my kids will have it, um, so they could better understand their dad. And as I got going, I realized it was a richer story and what really felt, um, as a calling to help others, to be of service. And that's where I am now in my life. And it felt like a portal m to connecting with others who may be struggling in similar ways. And, um, and recognizing that there's. There's more to this than the begrudging role they've accepted in their lives.

Speaker B: So. So what does your life look like at the moment? Like, are you working as, As a coach, mentor? Um, what all do you do?

Speaker A: Well, the book's keeping me pretty, pretty busy. And, um, before the actual publication, um, um, I worked really hard to not do anything, to have complete autonomy and let my days kind of, um, unfold as they do. Um, but yeah, I work with some startups and um, mentor, just, uh, advise, because I've had type 1 diabetes all my life. I'm very committed to the cause of diabetes and medication and supply access. Um, and um, I just casually, um, I no longer do m. The business stuff just doesn't turn me on anymore. And so I enjoy just interacting with, um, different people from different, uh, aspects of society that I can, um, sometimes coach and help in their journeys.

Speaker B: So I'm interested to know why the business side of things doesn't sort of spin your wheels anymore. But I'm wondering whether we should maybe go back and get a bit of a background on you first and through that, that might actually start to reveal at least part of why you've got to where you are with your entrepreneurial journey. But. So could you take me back and just sort of give us a little bit of an understanding about your family life and family when you're a young child and just give us a little bit of an overview on your life?

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, the author, Gabor Mate, who I think is brilliant, always says everything happens in childhood. And it really, it really determines, um, how we navigate life. Um, and most of us aren't conscious of that. Um, it's not something we can easily tune into. But the more work I've done, um, I've realized how all those, um, experiences and. And some traumas of childhood completely influenced how I navigated life completely. Um, there I may have thought that I had free choice, but it was. I was. I was programmed, um, in my nervous system to approach life in a certain way. Mostly because, um, on the one aspect of my childhood is my parents were both Holocaust survivors, and my mother was the only survivor from her family. And, um, that had its implications in the environment of our household, which could be dark and, um, joy was not to be trusted. Performance and achievement were what was valued. Um, and I had trouble performing because it wasn't diagnosed at that time. But I clearly had addiction difficulties in school and focusing. And then When I was 10 years old, I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. Back then referred to as juvenile diabetes. And my parents were really ill equipped to process that along with me because they had shut down, particularly my mother, um, her heart, because she didn't want to feel that kind of loss or pain. So, um, I found myself, and I've long since forgiven them and understand what they were dealing with. But it was, you know, this trauma of theirs I inherited. And, you know, intergenerational trauma is a real, real thing. And I could, I could really wax on about that and how you can actually feel it in your body and your nervous system. So I got this Scary disease. And there was no one there to say, it's going to be okay. You're safe in this world. And I kind of had to self parent through adolescence. Um, and, um, you know, I could tell many anecdotes and scary stories. And my parents, you know, I remember we didn't have talks, but they sat me down soon after I was diagnosed and you know, I could feel them conspiring and wanting to talk to me, which was very unusual. And the, and what they expressed was, you know, you don't have to tell anyone about this diabetes. Uh, so in some sense it was a relief to me. Yeah, good. I want to keep it a secret because my fragile little psyche didn't want to be. Feel different from everyone. But it also, um, sent another signal to me that this is indeed something to be ashamed of or something that makes me fragile or less desirable or different. And I started navigating life with that as my deep, dark secret. It took on such proportions, um, for me, that were way beyond the norm of, uh, being discovered. Like, it was so scary that anyone would find out. Um, so from that moment on, I started navigating life with, simply to be safe and survive. Um, and that is how I progressed well into adulthood. Um, and the first kind woman that crossed my path, um, as my friend. And when, as soon as I got to college, I, um, eventually married, um, because it said, stay with me, you know, stay with me, help keep me safe was the emotion I was feeling, but not necessarily what I was sensing consciously. And then entrepreneurship seemed inevitable as well because I could, you know, as they say, eat what you kill. You know, the efforts I put into work and business, I will, um, uh, recognize its benefits and I could kind of have more control of my days and thus my blood sugars. So the controller in me, um, took over. And that's, you know, that's an ego emotion. Um, that's an ego part. Um, not, not, not a felt part. So my ego was very active. That controller was very active, keeping me safe, keeping me safe, but also separating me from the world, separating me from life and feeling very detached, um, and always. But, you know, children gave me purpose. I loved being a dad. My businesses were challenging, but certainly the first business was very successful. So I was getting reinforcement, um, of the lifestyle I was living. But there was always something wrong. There was always this discomfort, um, and like, there's got to be something else, there's got to be something more.

Speaker B: Before the interview, you know, I was reading about your parents and you and obviously the fact that they were Holocaust survivors. And I was just sort of reflecting on that. I'm like, I don't know, like you just couldn't blame them for anything. What they went through is horrendous. And how do they. It was not the support structure then for them to navigate through it without being long term scarring and at the same time for them unwittingly, um, to have a significant impact on your life as a consequence of what they've been through. And I'm like, it's just like to me a victim, uh, a uh, faultless situation or you know, that no one's to be blamed for it. They just, what they went through is just doesn't be a thinking about, of course you're going to be damaged from it.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a very good recognition. Not only did that impact how I navigated life, it affected how my kids are navigating life, how I parented. Um, so if, if we accept, um, you know, there's a joke that says, you know, we wouldn't need psychiatrists if there weren't parents. Um, because certainly parents, you know, give us that imprint and how we're raised. So if you've suffered, you know, incomprehensible trauma, as my parents did, particularly my mother, um, it's going to have its impact on how you parent. You know, in this case, overprotective, secretive, um, um, but hard like I never heard I love you zergot hugs. Because going there was just too much for them. Too much for them. Um, and I never thought about it. I kind of wouldn't.

Speaker B: You didn't know any difference?

Speaker A: Exactly. Like I didn't process the Holocaust as a child. It was just, oh, they're old and they have funny accents from the old country. And I don't really want to connect with that. Um, but I can tell you it's come up since, particularly in the last several years as I've done so much deep work that, that sadness, um, and the impact that trauma of the Holocaust I feel, I can feel it in my body. I can spontaneously cry when triggered by ah, visuals. Um, and when I think about my mom's mother and sisters who were, you know, murdered, um, and fell in the ditches that they dug, um, is. It's incomprehensible. So, um, yeah, so then I, um, I inherited that survival gene. So in many ways I was fortified by this resilience, this ability to one foot in front of the other, to keep going. But it's a losing game, man. It catches up with you. It catches up with you. It's not. You eventually can't, or. I couldn't, uh, sustain myself just with my mind being determined. Um, my heart needed attention.

Speaker B: And was there something in particular in your life that was a catalyst for all these things to just sort of explode, as it were, you know, with loss of your marriage, etc. Or what would you put it down to? And obviously you change from. From being in, you know, very much into being an entrepreneur to no longer having the stomach for it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you asked a question earlier, which I didn't quite answer, is where. Well, um, you know, how the business. You know, I lost interest in business, but it's. Well, when you. When you. When you awaken to something bigger in the world, in your life. And fortunately, I have the privilege of having some money, so I didn't, you know, I no longer had that pressure to, you know, that I have to start another company to feed my family or pay a mortgage. I had. I had the freedom, I had the liberation to. To determine my path. Um, and so it was, you know, kind of a combination of, uh. I was always sort of a seeker. Like there was a quiet whisper within me of wanting to be more comfortable in the world, to feel more present to it. So I was always seeking. I would go on retreats, I would learn, you know, I would. I would try things. I did talk therapy forever, but nothing quite really worked. Um, and then when life, you know, this life's twist where, you know, you know, we held on to the marriage for so long, we tried our best, and finally giving up and just feeling so utterly alone in the world. I didn't have a team of people around me and employees and working against the common cause. Um, and again, my kids left the nest and building their own lives that it, you know, there was no place else to go but in. And so, um, yeah, I could have resorted to other less healthy, um, distractions. But that's when the deep work began. And, um, you know, and it still goes on naturally.

Speaker B: And in terms of the deep work that you refer to, what does that entail?

Speaker A: Well, I, um. My life, um, you know, I grew up in Queens, New York. And, um, working class roots. And then most of my adult life was in, you know, nice suburbs of New York and Connecticut. Moved to the city, um, about seven years ago after, um, divorce. And I dove in and I met this spiritual therapist, um, Ann, who was at the time, 86 years old. And it was during COVID Even though. And we. We only did, uh. We only shared Our screens. We never even met in person. But she gently started nudging me towards my heart, towards feeling and getting deeper. Um, because I would come as I would, to any therapist meeting with an agenda. Um, I want to talk about my marriage or my business or here's my problems. And it was just this cycle that would keep repeating and keep repeating. And she nudged me and she recommended two books, um, that really were pivotal in changing my perspective. One, um, Ram Dass, um, be here now, um, and the other, Eckhart Tolle's the new Earth. And both, you know, talked about this concept of non duality of being that, um, uh, there is only one existence that's not. That's bigger than us and how to be more present to the moment. Um, and it got me thinking. It got me thinking. And then, um, because my issues around control were so rigid and so intense, I start. I read Michael Poland's book how to change your mind, which ushered in the renaissance of psychedelics, um, that is still going on today. And I feared psychedelics when I was of age, when many people do try it in college, because As a type 1 diabetic, I wanted to feel control of my body and symptoms. It was too scary to do that, but. And it was still scary. But I, with, you know, determination and deliberation, I went through the process, found a shaman, and I started a path. And psychedelic, um, different medicines, you know, from mushroom psilocybin to ultimately ayahuasca opened, um, these neural pathways, showed me more, softened me. There's not good language for all of this, but that's when the work could really accelerate. And it was still work. You know, I didn't go, you know, I didn't sit and do psychedelics so routinely. They were, you know, they were honored ceremonies by very professional people, um, who I sat with in ceremony. And, uh, I saw my wounds more clearly. And there weren't. There were some really interesting insights, but nothing so revelatory or big epiphanies. But the layers started to come off and the dots started to connect. Oh, okay. That happened in childhood, and that was a real determinant of, of how I did this. And I was able even to look back at my marriage and understand our roles differently. And I think you said something in the beginning, it's like all of this is faultless, right? Like, our parents are doing their best. Um, I would give my mother crap all the time and push back, and she would, you know, dismiss me. And I'm just doing. I'm doing the best I can. Um, and that's. Now, you know, that's what I would say to my kids. Because when we trigger someone else, it's often from a wounded place in us that occurred in childhood. And when we feel triggered, it's. It's also from a wounded place that we feel in childhood. So if you. If you start to operate from a place of. Of compassion, forgiveness and understanding, you don't. You don't necessarily. You don't get triggered so easily. You don't react in that primal way, which was how I was navigating the world in my. With my reptilian brain. So now I'm able to just soften it and respond more clearly, um, to whatever's happening in front of me or more softly.

Speaker B: And has that resulted in a noticeable change in your relationships with your children?

Speaker A: Yeah, I believe. Um. I don't know what they'd have to say, but I think they do notice that too, where, um. As I got conscious, very conscious of like kind of the triggering dynamic, um, I realized that what I've. What. What I'm saying to them now can feel like something I said when they were five or three or seven. So that's how they're processing me. So I learned to be just really gentle and, you know, a. Watch my words, um, slow down, um, and just, you know, just. I say this all the time, just patience and love. Patience and love. There's no. I don't need to parent adult children. You can't parent adult children. So just shut up. Like, it's. I'm, um, not here to teach them anymore. I did, and it was, and maybe sometimes intense for them. So the absence of those. Of those behaviors, I think is what is allowing them to feel more comfortable in my presence and to bring us closer together.

Speaker B: And have you ever sat down and talked to them about your parents Holocaust experience and your realization of the impact that's had on you? Have you ever had that sort of discussion?

Speaker A: Um, yes and no. I think, um, just as I didn't, um, care to know so much history, um, of my parents. You know, they're dealing with their own lives. But I've always made remarks about, um. The way I parented was a result of how I was raised in a household that, like, what was familiar to me was just living around criticism and judgment. And that was my parents trying to motivate me. Um, and so I did the same, even though I said I never would, you know, um, with my own children. Um, and, um, when I grew, um, um, in this work, I apologized to Them saying, you know, there's. I have daughters. And I said, there's. There's two jobs, at least two jobs of a father. And one is to make you feel safe and secure. And I did that well. And the other is to make you feel seen and beautiful. And I didn't do that so well because I was too busy trying to make you into, you know, uh, responsible adults and, you know, bad on me. Um, so they hear it, and I think they accept it and, um, you know, and it's a process.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's. Yeah. And it's something that obviously, you know, taken some time to really step back and appreciate, you know, in terms of what. What the ramifications were of your. Of your upbringing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. I just don't. I just don't know what you could do differently, like, as a child and as a parent that's been through it back in those times. Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, what was always, you know, I think about a lot is how they went through so much, but how did they cope? Like, they seem to sleep at night, you know, because I have trouble sleeping, you know, I'm so anxious. Um, they didn't take any psychotropic medicines. They didn't see psychiatrists or therapists. They didn't even have that big circle of friends. Um, they just went forward, you know, and, you know, with that grit of survivors. But, yeah. And, you know, look, Holocaust is one example of, you know, incredible, um, trauma. But there's many versions of it. And that's why I think for a long time I minimized whatever I was dealing with because it wasn't a Holocaust. Yeah. So I've got diabetes, and I write in the book, in the very. In the introduction. M. There's many pains. There's people who have had bigger traumas and bigger pains, but it's my pain and it's my trauma, and how it was processed is what matters. And it's not. It's. It's not necessarily what you do or it's what you believe. And if you, you know, if you believe these stories about yourself, like, I'm less than, I'm inadequate, I'm damaged, that were, you know, in my body, in my nervous system, then that. That takes really conscious work to get past. And that's the work I'm still doing.

Speaker B: So back when you were an entrepreneur, because of your upbringing, that were you sort of just a real go, go, go person. You're very motivated. Everything was just push, push, push, and not really taking the time to step back and enjoy things. And that. Do you think you were always kind of like being driven by sort of this fear of failure and, and the need to survive and, and navigate your way through life without, um. Yeah, without failing.

Speaker A: Yeah. You, you, you nailed it. Like, uh, it was almost as if, you know, there's sharks circulating and if I stay, if I stay still, I'll, I'll, I'll get bitten. So I like, you know, one anecdote was, um, when I sold my first company nine, um, years after I started it, um, you know, I went in, did the big closing in the city, um, and took the train home back, um, and now I was much wealthier than I was before. And you know, I went back to the office and everyone wanted to celebrate. I said, no, let's get back to work. That was it. Like, nothing changed. Nothing changed in feeling. It was just like. And that's why the title of the book Confessions of a Problem Seeker was. I was never present. I was always thinking about what's next, analyzing what I did wrong, looking back, um, and never quieting the mind just to feel joy and celebration and many instances of that. But I notice it. I noticed that. God, I wish I could just, um, you know, take a breath and enjoy where I am, what I'm doing. And I'd say the times that that was easiest was just in the presence of family and children, um, who were such beautiful distractions for me.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean just listening to that, I can just sort of visualize it. How you missed out in celebrating moments like you otherwise could have because of your psyche, because of the way you approach life at the time. Presumably that's changed now though, and you look to, ah, enjoy each moment a lot more.

Speaker A: I try. But you know, this work again because I don't know if you're familiar with, um, the book the Body Keeps the Score. Um, and um, always forget the author's name, Van den Kirk. Um, that so much of what happens to us, certainly in trauma is embedded in our nervous system, in our bodies, so the conscious work can get used just so far. So if I grew up fearful that I could have a low blood sugar and pass out and go into a coma and die, um, so I have to be vigilant. And back then there were no devices, no blood sugar testing. You were based on using symptoms a lot to manage. That got embedded in me. Um, and add to that that I was keeping it a secret. So it was like my private, you know, so I'm always scanning, I'm always scanning for what's wrong what's wrong? And so, you know, I never felt safe in the world. And I was. Everything I was doing was tempting to do that. So still, like, my comfort zone can be rather small and. But I Now, um. The most important thing, or one of the most important things in my development was cultivating the witness. So that is almost like another entity that's watching what's going on. Oh, okay, Howard, you see what you're doing here, um, and how you're reacting to this situation. Let's, let's unhook from that and just breathe for a moment. And so the more you do that, the more you do that, um, the longer the periods of peace and satisfaction are and the shorter the periods of anxious stress.

Speaker B: Um, but it's not easy doing it though, is it? Not easy to do that. At least not for me.

Speaker A: No. You know, we're mammals. We react, you know. Um, uh, it's not easy, but I find myself like we're. There could be an altercation with, you know, someone cutting me off or, um, in so many instances where I laugh, you know, I can just. I said, and look back said, I can't believe that I used to get upset over those things, you know? Uh, yeah, but no, it's still that

Speaker B: ability to self reflect, to be able to step back and pause in the moment and not just react. It's a great skill. It's a challenge to do it. Um, I'm trying to work on it, but it's just a great thing if you can do it in the moment rather than. I find for myself, I feel like I'm lazy. When I just react, I don't pause, I just react. And I kind of feel like part of it's just a laziness. It's just easy to react rather than doing the hard work of pausing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like you said, like having a third person, you know, review it and speak to you about it before reacting.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, it doesn't even, it, it doesn't even get, get that far to be a thought, you know, because once you're, once you're triggered, you're in it, you know, and then, then, then it's a back of backing off. And that happens a lot too. Like, you know, like, okay, like, I see what I just did. Let me, let me return to a softer kind of place. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And I mean that, that's part of it, I guess, isn't it? Like if you're not able to sort of pause and review before reacting, at least recognizing afterwards and then working towards it, is at least a step in the right direction.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. The work I do now, um, is called somatic therapy. Where you, you and it, it's. I wouldn't have guessed it could be so, um, productive. Where you go into the body more and see what you're feeling. And you know, you do this routinely, see what comes up, see what's calling your attention and sit with it. And so it's a reprogramming. Um, and you then, boy, interesting. I am feeling. Even after that, you know, you start to notice that you just are softer and um, the wired, um, primal reaction to things just softens.

Speaker B: So how do you feel about your life now? What's your feelings about it all now?

Speaker A: It's, uh, really interesting. Um, I probably had, I'm sure I did. Um, but it wasn't, it wasn't conscious. This deep fear of mortality, um, at a, at a premature age, you know. And, you know, that's why I, you know, I clung to relationship, to help heal me, protect me, um, make me feel safe. Um, and now as I am should be thinking about mortality some, you know, 56 years since I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes and I'm healthy and have no complications from it and can start to accept like that, um, the implications of. I'm past the crisis of that, you know, I can understand that rationally where I, you know, accepting mortality, that it's going to happen someday is, is so relieving, um, of this kind of ambiguous burden that I was carrying. And the other thing that makes me so much more comfortable in my life and day to day, and this is this hard work continues as I worked in getting comfortable in solitude because solitude was scary for me. I went from my mother to my wife essentially. Um, um, I moved in with my ex wife before my 18th birthday and we stayed together for over 40 years. So I was never alone. I was never alone in the world. I felt good with my family around. I felt safe and protective in our home. And I worked hard to make money to build a big moat around our castle, if you will. But all that was gone. And so I'm out in the world alone. And I felt very untethered. But I hung in, I hung in, I hung in. And then there was like, in just recent months, um, like I recognized, wow, I really like myself. Like, I can feel, I can actually touch the goodness in me. Um, and you know, everyone says it's so important to love yourself. And I preach that all the time. Being kind to our, ourselves and loving ourselves is the answer. It Truly is. But just me wanting to do that, just me telling myself wasn't enough. But my work said, wow, I can feel it. And I just. I could relax into it, you know, um, and just be. Feel comfortable in my authentic self, you know? Paul, there's, um. There was a study done in palliative care of the. You know what. What are the greatest regrets of the dying?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And you know what number one was? It's not what people think. It's not, I wish I spent more time with my friends and family. And it wasn't that I wish I didn't work so hard. It was, I wish I had the courage to live a life true to myself. Imagine. So you grow a lot when you're facing mortality because you're in that moment of, uh, you don't give a crap about anything. Um, there's nothing. There's just nothingness. And that's when you're. And so when you're facing that and you say, God, I wish I could have been this my whole life. Um, and so that realization, when I read that, I said, man first. That's got to be the first paragraph in my book, um, because it really tees up the whole journey, right, to find who you are, your true self. Because we're all good. You know, we're all good, but we've told ourselves stories for decades and decades, um, that we're not or less than, or we believed other people's opinions, or we care so much about the validation of others just to validate our existence. Hm. M. Not anymore. Not anymore. I'm good with me. And that's. And that's a good place to be.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, that is a good place to be. I mean, we only get one shot at this. So you want to feel at peace with yourself and. And find joy as much as you can every day. So, yeah, there's no. There's no dress rehearsal. This is it. So you gotta make the most of it, certainly. So. So having learned what you have, what would your advice be to younger people? You know, starting out in life, you know, as they. As they reach adulthood and that. What would your advice be to people?

Speaker A: Well, it's probably a lot of, you know, typical advice, you know, um, young people get. But, um, you know, I'd say there's many paths in life. There's many paths, and sometimes the road less traveled might be a better one than the one that other people are telling you to take. Um, so your parents are well intended, but I think kids feeling pressure to go to college Right away and get into a great college is such a, um, uh, it's such a distraction from, from young people finding their true north, finding their passions and their interests. Um, you know, I was probably a creative. I, I like to think of myself as a creative, innovative person, but my parents couldn't see any of that. All they could see was me doing poorly in school, so I was at risk. Um, there was no attempt by them or even the New York City public school Systems of the 70s to say, oh, you've got other talents. Let's move you into this path or that path. So, uh, you know, to the extent. And it's just, you know, I realize it's not always easy to explore and try to find what you really like and, you know, and then move in a direction of a career that you would do for free, um, if you could, because you have such passion for it. And then, and then worry about making, um, a living. And I get that that could be fairly lofty kind of, um, advice. And the other thing I would say is just, you're good enough. You're good enough. And be kind to yourself. Don't be so harsh and judgmental, um, and keep believing in your own goodness. Um, and then, you know, it's, um, just living, you know, um, authentically and not caring so much about what other people think of you. And again, it depends where you are in life and at what age. Because those words would just, you know, go in one ear, out of the other, of an adolescent who's worried, you know, is so focused on socialization and likes on their Instagram or whatever, um, you know, where that's a whole other dark rabbit hole to go down about how social media and devices are hurting our young people.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And I think, like, my podcast is called Insights into Success, and I think one of the things I think I have had reinforced to me through this journey is the importance of people defining their own success rather than being the success that the general public would define as success. Now, for instance, being really rich or famous or that having a certain number of likes or whatever, uh, that people need to just look at what will make them happy, what would be success, what would that look like for them? And don't worry about whether it makes other people happy or not. It's what's important to you. So, yeah, hopefully with these interviews, people will get some inspiration and find their own way in life and find their own successes, whatever those successes might be.

Speaker A: Yeah, um, I kept pursuing achievement and validation and financial success and the. But it didn't fulfill me. Um, in the end. In the end, I felt safe. I felt safe. So Maslow's hierarchy. I was living, uh, at that bottom rung of safety and security, and it didn't matter how much money I made. And people would say, oh, you're successful. Or this. I said, I don't feel it. I felt like an imposter. I didn't feel like I fit in, even it into the clubby world of business, too. Like, I'd always be looking for the misfits that were, um, looking from the outside in and questioning and questioning. And I was always questioning, like, the authenticity of my work, of my life, um, and how I was relating to people. Um, hard to understand the. Where it all came from. But, um, I was never quite comfortable in the boardroom. And that. And that had its implications. You know, you could say adverse implications because I, you know, I had one board member who was very successful, um, CEO, um, who pulled me aside, said, you're too honest, man. Don't be so honest. Because I was just wanted. I just wanted to work from a humanistic place and, like, connect with board members or anyone that I was pitching and say, come on, we could figure this out to get a no. You know, it was hard for me to play the political game, but I hustled, you know, and I could sell and I could create. And I did my best, you know, I did my best.

Speaker B: So I'm just conscious of time. So we need to wrap this up. So one final question for you, though. What would you consider to be your greatest success so far in life? Hmm.

Speaker A: I'd say there are two things. It's. One is my kids. Um, not just to be cliche, um, but I've got three beautiful daughters who are, you know, splendid, irresponsible adults and good citizens of the world, and two granddaughters who are the apple of my eye. And, um, when I close my eyes and just want to smile, that's what I think of. And I think the other, as, you know, as sappy as it might sound, Paul, is just, um. I'm a good human. Um, that's who. I'm a kind, decent human, um, that treats people respectfully and kindly. Um, and just the love I have in my heart and the ability to feel that and share it is. Is, um. What. What else is there?

Speaker B: And so that last point, if we were to, say, jump back 10 years ago or that before your marriage splits and all that, would you have been able to say that then? Or is that something you've only been able to say in recent times, with

Speaker A: all your work, no, I wouldn't be in touch with that, uh, that, you know, they say the longest journey is from your head to your heart. And this head was so busy, so busy that brain. And that's why, you know, the subtitle of the book is my. My Lifetime Journey from Busy Brain to Loving Heart. Now, even though, you know, it was calling me, like there was like I had an awareness but not a real understanding, a real connection to my heart. And it's a very different place, um, of navigating life in your heart space. Um, and, you know, my, my empathy has increased, my compassion has increased. No, and back then, like 15 years ago, um, I would have been making fun of these spiritual people. The Hari Krishna's here in Washington Square Park. Um, yeah. Now I walk up to them and I ask them questions because in understanding their spiritual journey and what makes, you know, they, they're happy chanting, um, songs and tapping on tambourines. Well, there's maybe, maybe I'm the one that's crazy. And they're, they're, they're the ones that have figured it out. So. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. All right, well, thank you so much, Howard. It's been really very interesting to, to listen to you. Your book. We will put that, uh, in the link when we publish this so people can get, get a hold of that book. But you've remarkable journey. And I just think, gosh, yeah, I just. How would I navigated it. Yeah, very, very challenging, but enlightening at the same time. Or at least you got to a point where, uh, you're able to reflect on everything and, um, hopefully be at more peace with everything. So, yeah, really inspirational. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for agreeing to stay on for the read to succeed too. So anyone that wants to hear about books that Howard would recommend, stay tuned because we're going to do a, uh, separate segment on that. So thank you.

Speaker A: Thank you.