Why Vienna Could Become Europe’s Next Startup Hub. Markus Raunig | Ep. 005

Alright, so what if the next European unicorn factory wasn't Berlin, Stockholm, or London, but actually Vienna? Can you imagine Vienna in Austria? And it sounds like a provocative question, but today's guest has spent nearly a decade building the case and the infrastructure to make it real, and we're going to talk about it today. So I'm just going to read my notes to make sure I don't get this wrong.

He's the executive chairman of Austrian startups, the Austrian leading non-profit platform for entrepreneurship, with over 30,000 supporters, a 50% distributed team, and an annual report that has become the benchmark data source for the entire Austrian startup ecosystem. He also hosts Future Weekly. That's one of the podcasts which I looked at for preparation. He's one of Austria's most successful and listen to tech podcast, where he breaks down the trend shaping startup, technology, and the future of work in the dark region and beyond, with a focus, of course, in Austria and Vienna.

And he has been a founder himself, and that's also why the full story uh leads to Austrian startup. He built a startup called SponsorBach, watched it lose all of its funding in a single night or a few days. I see like he's already uh laughing, because the accelerate accelerator backing it lose all the funding in uh in uh in a few days, and instead of walking away, that experience that made him obsessed with the startup ecosystem in uh in Austria, and that's also why he made his uh his motto around the Austrian startup.

So, yeah, very excited to to have him today. Oh, and wait, wait, wait. And in on his very first day or on his his very first event as managing director, he had five minutes to pitch the idea of an entrepreneurial Austria to the country federal chancellor with bomb-sniffing dogs circle the room. That's true, that's correct.

But welcome to the to HXT212. Uh Marcus, I'm very, very excited to have you today because uh I know that uh you're you're working a lot in uh in this ecosystem and innovation. So, yeah, very happy to have you today. Thanks for the invite.

Cheers. My name is uh Thibaut Catala, I'm the founder of Catala Consulting, and this is HXT212 HXT212. Alright, so we'll go straight to the to the points. I want to start with a framing question.

When people think Austria, they think Mozart, they think the Alps, maybe Sigmund Freud, but they don't immediately think about um a startup or innovation. Um do you think it's a it's an it's a changing narrative, or do you think it's still the case today? I mean our wish would be that this changes. So I my my wish, my vision is that Austria becomes known for its entrepreneurs and is renowned for it.

And the the most ambitious and and um talented people from all over the world come here to uh become part of this narrative. But I think at the moment it's still very much wishful thinking. I do think that Austria is still known for Mozart or skiing, and um also that's the general culture that we see in people who grow up here. And I I my my feeling is of course that's something to build on, and I don't think we should destroy that, but at the same time, if we want to keep uh our prosperity, if if we want to keep Vienna as the the most livable city in the world, then we need to build up another economic um leg and and something that that is actually food future-proof.

So that's why we are doing what we're doing. Okay, and you think it's changing though? Is it going on the right direction? Yes, it's it's moving in the right direction, not as fast as I would like, and probably would be necessary.

But if you look back 10 years ago, of course, the the it has has moved quite a lot, the needle has moved quite a lot, so it's it's better now than 10 years ago. I would have hoped for it to be further already, but yeah, um we're we're we're working on it. Yeah, I yeah, uh probably. I think like it's uh it's it's evolving here.

And um, okay, so for for anyone discovering you today, um, because you are well known in uh in Austria, in a dach, in uh in Vienna, but for for the rest of the world, um can you just pitch a bit of uh of uh of what you do and uh who you where you are and what you do at Austrian startup? Um just to make sure we understand uh where you come from. Of course. So so Austrian startups um is as you mentioned before, the the umbrella organization for startups in Austria.

So we mainly focus on two core activities. Um the one is community building, so we are hosting all kinds of different events from the big startup, yearly startup conference, the Austrian Startup Summit, to very specific uh exclusive meetups for founders in different stages to office hours for the early stage to the the big Stammtisch, which is our uh weekly meetup, which is open to anyone. Okay. Anyone who's interested in maybe maybe getting into this direction um has a place there.

And we are also running a program called the Entrepreneur Leadership Program, which helps highly ambitious uh people, high potentials from all kinds of different fields to actually make the journey from entrepreneur to actual entrepreneur. So from wanting to start a company, starting a startup to actually doing that. So we're helping them with mentoring, with workshops, with uh a community of like-minded people to get them along. We also have an online platform, a newsletter, we have the podcast.

So everything when it comes to community building in terms of startup and entrepreneurship in Austria, we try to cover. And on the other hand, um, we are think tank. So we're doing research. You mentioned a big uh study, the Austrian Startup Monitor that we publish.

And uh, based on the facts and figures that we collect through the monitor, we develop uh political recommendations. So I'm also part of the startup council, which is the advisory body of the Austrian government when it comes to startup and entrepreneurship. And I try to uh push for better conditions for entrepreneurs here, which is mostly frustrating, but sometimes we do manage to get some things right, I would say. And then um there's a third pillar that we actually now uh were spinning out, if you want, because we were starting a foundation, a non-profit foundation, which aims to change the culture in Austria.

So, exactly what you mentioned before, um, to make uh our culture more entrepreneurial, to get more people to see us entrepreneurship as a career option, to create a better image of entrepreneurs in the broad society. We have the entrepreneurial future foundation, which is also highly targeted towards uh educational initiatives. So, there we are, for example, in more than 150 schools all over Austria, together with the IFTE. Um, we are doing something like a school skiing course, okay, but not for skiing, uh because but for but for entrepreneurship because we looked at how did actually Austria end up such a skiing nation.

Um, and there in the 70s and 80s, every child in Austria had to do a mandatory skill ski course in school, and then if you look to the 90s, there was actually ski races where the first nine places were only Austrians, so that was uh uh it was an intervention where you actually in the system in the educational system made this a staple. Doesn't mean that everybody becomes a skier, but you you open the funnel, and the same we want to do with entrepreneurship. So we do an entrepreneurship week in schools, okay.

So do you think the the um the cultural change starts from um uh the education uh at an early stage? Uh what what is the earlier earlier stage that you go through? Is it like uh kindergarten or is it like uh not yet? Um as an organization, not yet.

We are we're starting in high school. Um, but yes, you're right. Actually, I think we should even go earlier. There's other organizations who already do that, and who um we definitely also uh try to support as as much as we can do.

For example, there's the the Change Maker program, which is in primary school, in kindergarten. I maybe there's some books already that go in this direction, but um, I I do believe you you can start early enough with having that mindset of feeling self-empowered, because in the end, entrepreneurship always comes down to there's a problem, and instead of just complaining about it, which we as Austrians can we are very good at that. Well, we can talk about the French if you want.

So this is a good start, but then you need to do the next step to actually think about how you can change something, how can you do something about it, and this is what's missing often, and that's what I think you can't change early enough. I see. I I I was just reading a few days ago that um the um they made some studies in the US about is there any patterns uh into all the successful entrepreneurs, uh, even at the early stage to recognize okay, how do we catch up on the on the on the entrepreneur early enough so we can mentor them and help them succeed to become the next uh big thing in uh in the future?

And guess the only pattern they found in all the successful entrepreneurs at a early stage, you know what it is? No, dyslexia, really, yeah, interesting at a very early stage. Uh so in school, they started to recognize that uh dyslexia was one of the of the patterns of all the entrepreneurs, not anything else, just a dyslexia. And apparently, what I've read is that dyslexia was making them a bit uh different, yeah.

Uh, and they were a bit put aside as well from uh from the school education and so on because they were a bit different. Um, and that's why they had this kind of of mindset of I'm going to show them that I'm worth it, and that's why I'm just to survive, I'm going to build something which is uh which is not existing yet. I'm going to show them that uh I can do something. Yeah.

What do you think of this? It's I I do, I mean, obviously, most of the founders I know are now quite good at language and also uh communicating, but I I do think I I see exactly where where this comes from because yes, what I see also now later on is people who are unstoppable and have extreme levels of uh determination and and this never giving up attitude. Where building a startup, it's it's an incredible roller coaster, and there's lows that feel absolutely catastrophic. And to come back from that and keep going when it usually where I would say on a rational level, you would have to say, no, doesn't make sense.

I'm not gonna suffer through this anymore when it's not working. Yeah, and if you then look at these outlier founders, they are the ones who bring enough um ability to suffer, amid enough willingness to go through this to actually also believe in it when it comes seems completely naive to do this. And there I I'm sure there's often some some background in the childhood where they felt like they needed to prove themselves. Yeah, you see.

So that's I think that could be something like if you catch them early enough, then you can help them support them, and then they can shine even further. I see that's good. Actually, it's a very good segue that you mentioned about suffering into a startup because you did suffer into your startup. So, what happened with your startup uh sponsor bar?

Can you tell us a bit of the story here? Of course. Um, yeah, I actually have to correct a bit what you said because um so I out of university for for through univers. No, actually, I have to start earlier.

I I fell in love with entrepreneurship because I founded a football club, okay, an amateur football club with my best friend out of school already. And that experience of of just creating something myself, building it up, and we had some some some good luck also that we were voted as the most popular amateur football club in in Austria and could fly to London to play a match at Stanford Bridge. And it gave me a lot of indication that I I want to do something with with entrepreneurship.

I I um got into startups, and for me it was clear, okay, I actually want to find something. I did that at the end of university. I worked for one approximately a bit more than one year, I actually worked on a startup idea together with uh two friends of mine. And um yeah, in the end, I think towards the end of this year, we we started to figure it out.

We had the founder team really set up well, also the technical capabilities. We found a topic after pivoting, of course, um, that felt like there is also a business case involved, and where we had some kind of personal unique insight that that we could leverage, which was the sponsor bar that you mentioned, which was a marketplace for sponsorings where we would say to companies, look, currently all your sponsoring budgets are just going out there by instinct, by often friends of the people running the sponsoring departments.

We believe we can help you do that better. Data-based approach, what kind of in what kind of causes, what kind of target groups do you do you want to support? Um, and we'll find you projects that that that really get you there. And um we also got an accelerator um to support us then, and everything was looking quite well.

But then actually, for me, um, the opportunity came upon to take over Austrian startups, which was back then already uh rising. It wasn't a professional organization yet, I would say, but uh it was a really strong community. So there was the brand was there, the the people were there. So I I think it was was something that really um was a great fit from my personal conviction, from my personal life mission, if you want, because I experienced this this whole thing of my own where I somehow never saw entrepreneurship as a career option, and only through this football club, which was kind of a coincidence, I I found out about this whole area of of doing something my on my own.

And it felt like a great fit with Austrian startups. And first I thought I could do this part-time and part-time my my startup, and then once it got concrete, the the uh Austrian startups board back then said, No, either you do this full-time or not at all. And then I I made a very difficult decision, which was really tough back then to leave my own startup and take over Austrian startups, and I thought actually doing that that my other two co-founders would be in a good position to keep going because was still a technical and business co-founder and they were great.

Um, but then three weeks after I left, which was of course already from the momentum, it's it's tough to get that, but then the accelerator that that was was funding us or was committed to funding us, went bankrupt. And suddenly there was also no money. So my other co-founder also then had to uh to pivot pivot or actually get a job to cover the bills, and so the the startup eventually completely um stopped. And um, yeah, now in one of our programs, there's actually a startup doing something similar.

So let's see, 10 years later. Well, it's still a good idea, hopefully. Yeah, we'll see. But um, so you're saying like um your full story led you toward this position today, and it's quite personal as well.

What's uh what you do today, and uh yeah, I think that makes sense. And um yeah, I I was reading and uh in preparation for for this recording about um the Austrian startup monitor that you that you release uh every year, and um I I was looking at uh at the at the data around um 56% of Austrian startups have social or ecological goals and a strong green tech focus. Um why is that? Do you think it's uh it's um cultural thing in uh in Austria to be focused on green tech, or is it just like a trend that we see nowadays?

What's your feedback on this? Um yeah, it's a very interesting statistic because it's it's uh also in comparison to other countries, it's a really high share. Okay, and the the the number you mentioned, I have to say, is is a broad impact definition. So that those are companies who say that they mainly do what they do because they want to fulfill a certain purpose.

That doesn't have to be ecological, doesn't have to be green tech, um, but there needs to be something that uh has a positive effect on society, um, and this is uh self-reported. So I do believe you will have a share of these 56 or 7%, where I would say it's a stretch that they're really an impact starter. It might be pure, okay. Um but I also personally have the feeling, my instinct would be that we do have that purpose-driven entrepreneurship.

This is something where um it's one of the key motivators for people to go into entrepreneurship in Austria, yeah. And I think that is actually also connected to the culture we have here because it's so uncommon to go into entrepreneurship, so uncommon to start your business to see entrepreneurship as a career option that the people who do it are actually doing it mainly out of a strong conviction of uh that the the this they see a problem they really want to solve. And through that, I think you have probably just in in the group of startups, uh probably a higher share than in other countries where it's completely normal that uh starting like the most ambitious people in in other countries, and for example, in America, most ambitious people it's quite clear the the pinnacle is is is starting a startup.

This is of course also the hardest, but this is is clearly if if you want to move needle, yeah, if you want to be uh top, top, top, then that's the way, and and that's not the same in Austria, and that's why I think you have a bit of a bias if you want like that. The mindset change as well. So, yeah, you you I see as well this kind of off-path. Um, uh may or may not have been uh in this case or not, but a lot of people uh working a lot in uh in corporate um may burn out or or feel misaligned, then they quit everything to to work on something that care about, and green tech or or or ESG and so on can be something which they align more on it.

So I hear as well, and I I can understand why people are working on something that they believe in, yeah. Uh and that's kind of the of the path. Do you see what I mean? Definitely.

I I think this this missing purpose in in life is is generally a generational thing that you feel, and um a startup is a great way to do something that you really believe in. Yeah, of course. I wouldn't say that I mean you have the people burning out in corporate shops because they're missing purpose, but you also have people burning out in in startups because they uh they don't succeed in in realizing their purpose. So then it's really tough because also often your identity becomes one with your business.

So if the business is failing or not working out, it's tough to separate it. So um it's it's uh not an easy fix, but I I do believe that um yeah, we we as humans need to feel like we're actually doing something that we believe in. Understand. And what is the full uh picture today of the Austrian um landscape in Austria?

Like do you do do you have some statistics about how many startups do we have? Yeah, roughly, and uh what are some key areas that people are building on? So overall, again, it's not an exact number, but 3,000 to 3,500 startups that that we see. Our definition that we base that on is younger than 10 years old and uh in innovative and growth-oriented.

Um and the areas uh are quite broad. Okay, I wouldn't say that Austria is a clear focus area. We do have some pockets of of um industries that are probably standing out. Currently, what we see is that generally, and that is not specific to Austria, but all over the world, uh everything concerning AI is dominating at the moment.

Also, because the the VC money is is looking for that at the moment. So especially if you have a software startup and there's no AI involved, you're struggling. So you have to say I do AI, and then boom. Yes, um, it's not that easy, but yes.

Okay, understand. There's also some startups who are not AI but put AI understand that pitch text. Of course, that also happens, but yes, uh, AI is a is a big trend. In general, if you like um look over this trend, then you do have uh fintech and crypto um focus in in Vienna, especially in interestingly, also quite a few international crypto exchanges have now put the European headquarters in Vienna because the national regulation body here, the FMR, is known to be quite knowledgeable about this.

Okay, and it doesn't mean that it's easy to get, but at least you're talking with people who understand it. Um, and uh also I believe life science health tech is something where in Austria we do have uh a strong ecosystem, um simply also because we have strong universities, so yeah, there is potential here that that could I I think materialize even more. Okay, I'm surprised for me. One of the biggest opportunities I see in uh in Vienna, I don't see enough uh Würschlastan.

Wichtigstein, yes. I think I think we are missing those kind of uh of mom and pop Wilchelstein around Vienna. I'm not sure if I would qualify it as a star. But I it is I always love to have more questions.

There you go, you see. But um okay. And behind the the the data that you you you you see, you mentioned like start a startup in your in your studies, it's um uh 10 years or or younger. Um are they trends that you see on those data which are not shown on the studies?

Uh what is the R-true behind it? Uh difficult to say. I think the numbers are there's not too many secrets behind the numbers that I see. I I my feeling is again that we are not overall that we're not producing enough startups.

Okay, I do think this is our biggest problem, especially as the numbers are really stagnating over the last few years. So we had a clear period of growth in the in the later uh like 2015 to 2020, yeah, you could see the ecosystem was really growing, yeah, and now we are stable on this level, but we would need to grow further. And this is also if you look at uh like the European um comparison. If you look at the number of new growth-oriented companies being started in comparison to the existing one, the existing ones, and there you look at the ratio, then Austria is I think second to last in Europe.

Not good. Um so we have a very stagn stagnant non-dynamic economy, and and that's not good for competition. But you mentioned like it was uh in the past it was quite growing, and then suddenly it started to stagnate. What happened?

Uh it's difficult to say. I think because we were starting to grow from a very bad going from very far. Okay, so the the growth I think was definitely needed. Um, why it stopped?

I I do believe there was a certain moment in time when also you mentioned uh the the the chancellor, you know, we had in the in the yeah, 2015 to 2020, I felt like the topic had strong political support, okay, but little substance. So there was it was hyped a lot, yeah. But then a lot of people entered the fray who were maybe just hoping for quick money or uh weren't serious enough about it, and that destroyed the reputation a bit, I think. Um so there's now quite some successful startup entrepreneurs who say they don't uh call themselves a startup anymore because in the in the broader economy there's reputational damage um with that, which is a stupid uh situation, I believe, because we need more startups and we need to call them what they are.

Um so that probably played a role while less where this hype or this this growth trend uh ebbed down a bit. On the other hand, of course, there was corona in 2020, which at the beginning really led to less, then uh first it led to more, but then really less. So then people were looking for security in general. This crisis that we had in in the last few years with with COVID, with with Ukraine, with all the insecurity that came from the geopolitical situation.

People were looking for safe havens in their career, and that's yeah, to be fair, clearly is not building a startup. You you mentioned things like as well around um political stability, uh, and that's my personal opinion. You may have something different. I believe innovation startup should be agnostic to politics.

So, whatever politic you have, yes, it just shouldn't be an issue to stop or slow down or accelerate the innovation. I do believe any kind of economy needs innovation, uh, whatever uh political situation you have here. You agree on this? No, I 100% agree with it.

I think the role of politics is to get out of the way. Um and unfortunately, that that's not always the case. And of course, um the current situation is there's lots of things that are not optimally set up. Just um we have this culture again currently where there's a lot of protectionism going on, protectionism for the existing businesses by means of making it very difficult to set up a company where you have to run through four different entities who I'm not going to mention this, I'm going through this right now.

So you know about it, and and the the sad part of it that's to a certain extent that's by design, yeah, because it's it's defined as a a certain level of seriousness. Like quality, good quality. Exactly. And I I I don't agree with that.

I think you want people also to just be able to start something to think around. It I do I don't believe that it's it's correct that you build up a lot of entry barriers. I agree. And um that's one element where I would say get out of the way.

This this is it's not uh what we need at the moment. Um yeah, if you compare it with the UK, for example, UK you can set up your company uh in uh in a few hours and your bank account the next day, and the next day you start trading. France a bit less, I uh I feel, but uh for I'm comparing with the UK, it's super fast, and you have a lot of startups, a lot of uh yeah, not so serious startup, but on the hundred or thousand that you have non-serious, you may have like a few which pop on and pop in, and then you have like uh the innovation moving further.

You see what I mean? So I believe it needs to be fast, he needs to be smooth, it needs to be okay. I see like we are good aligning. We align.

Yeah, and otherwise, I I do believe we need more Europe. I I think in general, yeah, Austria in itself is too small to really move the needle, and also the market, the Austrian market for a startup, it will will always alone be too small. That you need to think bigger, and there we need uh a stronger common market in Europe and the reduction of barriers there. No super interesting.

And um, I'm going to push it a bit here because um I'm going to to read this one. Um, they are saying like uh Berlin as a as a brand, Stockholm as a unicorns, London as a capital, Paris as a president, you know, the French uh was it uh La French La French Tech, which is like the full backup on this. Um, what do you think is uh is the Austrian uh argument today to uh to to to to build the the the the startup ecosystem? What's the main argument for for Maustria?

I I think we want to have the talent, and I do think we have it. Unfortunately, uh quite a few of these really talented people are leaving, then if if they want to realize their ambitions, but we we have amazing talent here, and this comes from strong universities, strong um research, but also just the people building stuff. If you look, uh we we just had the story of of Oppen Claude with with Peter Steinberger, he's an Austrian, yeah. Um and in the end, yes, he is proud to be here.

He um was based in in Austria for a long time. He built his his first startup here, which he then exited um for a nine-figure sum. Um but now really being on the bleeding edge, so that is currently defining the future of a Gentic AI, and this is coming from him and a few other Austrians actually. That's that's one thing who who will stay.

But he he was, yes, he was a one-man show there, but he was building on the foundations of a few other very talented Austrian builders. And um if you then really want to push this, then of course, he doesn't want to build another startup. Um, he the the clear step was to to a big foundational uh model company, yeah. And nobody in Europe can currently compete with with the big four in in the US.

And so this is how people end up. We have another example, an Austrian researcher who was doing his his research here at the Teo Vienna, who never thought about starting a startup, building a company here with this research, then did an exchange uh research stay at the MIT, and within months there was VCs offering them 20-30 million uh million dollars to to actually um spin that out and make a company out of it, and then they did it, and now that it's it's liquid AI, uh another very interesting AI company.

So we do have amazing brains here. Um we just have to create better conditions for them to stay. I here between I'm trying to read between the line of what you mentioned. Is it because we are missing capital?

Yes, capital does play a big role. I think it's it's both, it's it's the mindset and the culture and the the conditions here. Yeah, because I think Peter also mentioned that in on uh on on X. I think he he posted that in the end, if if you have uh an ambitious great idea here, then all you hear is why this won't work and why would you do that?

And and and um this is it's it's full of and be careful with that and that, and you have to take care of this, so it's it's a lot of stress, it feels difficult to make the while in the US. If you have an ambitious idea, people say amazing, um, and this I think is is a big topic, okay. Um, which we shouldn't underestimate how much that plays a role, but of course, uh capital that is is currently just not competitive, especially in Austria, but generally in Europe it's not competitive with with the US, but in in Austria, especially from a certain level upwards, it's just not not existent.

So you you you believe that um this kind of um okay, so you mentioned about the mindset which is uh which is important in Austria and uh and Europe, which maybe um yeah, there's still a lot of works to be done here. Uh, but you you you believe as well this kind of um there is a social safety net in the way that people are too uh comfortable and uh people don't don't have this kind of uh ability to take risk, like they don't want to take risk, yeah, because everything is comfortable as well.

You see what I mean? Yeah, I I actually believe the safety net itself isn't a problem because I think these ambitious people they don't care about the safety net, and and actually it's it's good if if society is working to a level where um I'm not sure if if um the the social differences that you sometimes see in America are healthy also for a society, and I think there's challenges that come with that which also make America less attractive for for ambitious people, but um in general this it is culture of risk taking, and as you said, this extreme carefulness of thinking through every kind of potential uh thing that could happen with it already before you start.

Because yes, at some point you need to. I I I also now if if we look at social media, I'm I'm not happy how this ended up destroying our society to a certain degree. Yeah, this uh ultimate scroll, completely algorithmic feeds that I I try to keep my my son away at at all costs. I I think this is where at some point as an entrepreneur you need to take over responsibility and you need to say uh this is not what what I wanted to achieve with this technology.

But if you do this before even getting started and you're pushed to you'll never start, you you never start. Yeah, so I think that's where we need to change. So if you were to recommend um something to any founders watching us, you would say like uh take risk. Yes, take more risk, be be willing, be bold and um just get started.

Just look at the um upside and not the downside, or like uh look at what positive can happen and try to forget a bit about the the negative stuff. This is something I'm I'm interviewing a lot of successful founders in in my podcast, and many of them said in an interesting way that if they look back now at the beginning, when they started the company, they were naive. But that was necessary to get going. Because if they would have known everything that would happen later, they wouldn't do it.

But now they are of course very happy they they did it because it's worth it. It's this type of fun that in the moment feels very tough. But once you manage to to get past it, it's amazing, and it's the stuff that really life is all about, and and and that's why I I do say to people at the very beginning: just get going, don't think 10 years or five years ahead, all the eventualities. No, focus on the core now and have fun building.

Be naive. Yeah, just be naive. Don't look, don't hear about uh all the the horror story about startups, just uh focus on what you can, the positive, and uh and move forward and take risks. Super inspiring, very inspiring.

And you you you mentioned as well in uh I've listened to you on the podcast that Austria uh is a bridge between Western and Eastern Europe. Um, and what what do you why do you believe so? And uh and is it a good thing for for for the for the ecosystem in Austria and for any founder listening to us? Or can you take advantage of this?

Yeah, I think the the reasons are historical. Also, like post-second world war, Austria was was the bridge between the east and the west. There was also lots of spies around here because um in some way we had this this neutral position. Yeah, um, of course, this is not so much the case anymore, but still, I think from the way Austria is perceived, um, that still exists.

And then just also geographically, um, there it feels a bit like the gateway between uh Eastern and Western Europe, or Central and Eastern and Western Europe. Um, and I think that you can leverage because the the pull factor, especially of Vienna towards the the countries in Central Europe is is still very strong, so there's great talent there too. Yeah um so to be the starting point for for companies doing that makes sense. Um again, I think it just um needs to we need more more communities that get people into an environment where this feels doable, where it feels like um this is the place to be, and that's what we are working on, of course, yeah, with Austrian startups.

Um I do also believe what what Vienna can can really count on is that still, and of course, this was even a stronger point if you go five years back, but um still if you look at the quality of life versus the costs of living, it's an amazing city. And if you want to attract talent, this counts. If you want to get the best people for your startup, if you can tell them, look, you earn well here, but you can even you can use this this money to have an amazing life, you can afford much more here than for a similar salary uh somewhere else.

So this relation I think is is is something that that we can use. Okay, no, I think that's uh so creating this kind of uh of hub and also also quite a good uh location hub because that's you're between these kind of two parts. And um, do you think the um some successes that you have seen in Austria can become kind of an example for other startups? Like uh I've heard that uh BitPanda is from uh Austria or a GoStudent or OpenClo.

Now more more recently. Do you think this kind of uh use case and uh and uh and yeah success story is also kind of of a of a booster for for the innovation and startups uh seen in Austria? Of course. I I think you need these role models, you need the success cases that others can look at and say it's possible here.

Yeah, um, and all three of the ones that you mentioned are uh are very different and also show that there's not just one right way. Bit panda is is probably the one where as an entrepreneur you can really look at um the case where the yeah, we're just three amazing entrepreneurs um building this thing for quite a long time bootstrap, but again, great talent doing that from Vienna. Um then taking VC money, both local but also international, to get to the next level. Um and now being probably market leader in Europe, I would think so.

Um, especially definitely in the Dach market, very strong in Germany. Um and uh they've built this also on being the first move was when it came to regulation, so they were very good at doing the extra mile when it comes to making sure this everything is properly set up, and um, they're again uh I mentioned before that the the Austrian regulatory body there is is um quite good, so that was something where they leverage the local connection, and now they're they say they are preparing an IPO.

Um so yeah, is it the news for today? No, it's not not news yet, it's just rumors, but um uh yeah, that would would be amazing, both from a narrative, from a yeah, role model, but also for the ecosystem, it's important because it's uh it needs liquidity. Um really there needs to be exits for the investors to reinvest the money in new companies, so that would be cool. Okay, yeah, I think that's uh that's a great success story that um people are looking forward to.

And actually, I was surprised when I read that BitPounder was Austrian, like happily surprised to see. But you you you I didn't think it was from Austria, but yeah, I see. And and I think what's also great about BitPund, uh if we're talking about one of the co-founders, Christian Trummer, um, is the technical co-founder. Um he's actually one of the co-founders of this foundation that we started, which wants to drive cultural change towards more entrepreneurship, and he pledged that a certain percentage of his uh personal gain in case of an exit would then go into this foundation.

So we calling building a uh a cycle, if you want, where the successful entrepreneurs of today are supporting the next generation coming through, and this is something which is also a great signal, I think. Definitely. And um, so let's say, like um, today you're sitting in front of the Austrian uh chancellor, and you had to to you have five minutes to pitch him uh your idea without the bomb-sniffing dogs around you. Um, what are the three things that we'll put on the table today to make sure that um Vienna and Austria were actually the the startup hub of tomorrow?

Okay, I think um yeah, three things. First of all, um revamp the education system in order to foster entrepreneurial education on all levels. People need to finish school and believe that they can move the needle, that starting a company is is a valid career choice, that um they can that they see every problem as an opportunity. I think this is extremely important for the cultural aspect, and also probably celebrate entrepreneurs on a political level.

People do still look at politicians as some kind of inspiration, so make sure that um the same way we celebrate our ski Olympic winners or our Vienna philharmonics, same way let's celebrate our entrepreneurs. The second is um make sure to support all kinds of initiatives that create stronger unification in in Europe, especially now, specifically uh the AO Inc. Um, which is the this common legal setup that they are planning. This is what Austria, more than any other or all small kinds of countries, really need because then you have this big common European market, a big European standard that you can build around.

So get behind the AU Inc. and do everything to get this through on a European level. Um, don't listen to all the people in the in the justice community who will tell you no, this is bad because now all our security systems and all our legal system won't work anymore. Uh be bold there.

And and the third, I think is is quite clear. Uh we need to create stronger capital markets. Okay. Um, and there is again, this ideally should happen on a European level.

So create a strong capital markets union where um the uh pension funds are providing a lot of institutional capital, also for venture capital, but also on a national level create the incentives um that make it much more attractive to invest money in innovation. So my my feeling would be it should there should be a clear advantage for you as an investor, even. Um is it taxes or is it taxed? That would be a tax break that I would probably introduce where I say if you invest in a startup, yeah, then you clearly get a tax benefit.

For example, like the UK. Did how because you before you mentioned London is there for the capital, that is because of the Cedar Enterprise and the Enterprise Investment Scheme. Those those are clear tax incentives for investors there. And this is something we should copy quite clearly because it makes sense from a society perspective.

Because we need those innovative new companies to be able to compete. Yeah. Um, and this won't happen if there's no incentives to do that. I see.

You mentioned about access to capital. Do you think the responsibility of the state or the private VC to this kind of thing? I I think a private VC will always be better equipped to invest directly in startups. I think the state should um create incentives for um people and and and organizations to do this.

And of course, you could argue that uh we should also revamp our pension system and potentially make uh publicly owned uh pension organization also put some of their money into innovation because I think also from a societal perspective it makes sense that it's not just the people who already have a lot of capital will um actually profit from investing in innovation, it should be also by the broad public. But yeah, for that we need a complete revamp of our uh pension system because currently what we pay is directly used to fund the pensions of the people currently, so that it's it's not a capital-based pension system.

Um, so this would be uh it would also be very important for making it more sustainable, yeah. And then you you could also uh use that. I see. Okay, and I will add an uh a fourth point for personally for for me, um to try to make the bureaucracy a bit smoother and a bit faster and more uh startup and uh and entrepreneur-friendly.

Um, because it's kind of a bureaucracy problem. I guess it's something which is common across uh across Europe or also, but you think it's uh Austria even more severe than uh than other countries, and why that? Probably yes, uh that's why my second point goes in this direction because my hope is the easiest way to get rid of that is just put all of these bureaucratic acts on a European level, yeah, so that there is no Austrian thinking involved anymore. Which is a good and a bad thing, I don't know.

Okay, um, but yeah, unfortunately, this is a cultural thing, probably still comes from the monarchy, which was also known for being uh a big bureaucratic institution. Um, so I think there's some history when it comes to bureaucracy in Austria, and it's still difficult to get rid of it. I think that's okay. So it's a cultural change, a cultural change or mindset change.

Okay, and um when you are trying to get a policy change made, um what do you think is uh is moving the needle here in Austria? Like you want to you want to make sure the bureaucracy is getting better. What could be the different solution to do this? I think we need a lot more uh one-stop shop solutions.

Okay, currently the amount of institutions that you need to involve in getting things done make things very complicated. So I do believe there should be for every every kind of um thing you want to achieve. So if you want to found a company, if if you want to get an investor on board, there should be one public entity that drives this process. And what happens in the background, I don't care, but there's one clear uh point of contact point of contact that has ownership also for it, for the last word, because what also happens in Austria is that one institution or one authority says one thing and the other one says something else, and then it's your responsibility to moderate between them or find out which one is the one that actually counts.

So one point of contact and one ownership for the whole process, and then I would suggest to have uh required service level response times, just as you have that in companies, where you say uh process needs to be finished within a certain amount of days, and if this is not covered, then it's okay. So turn it around and say it's responsibility of the uh of the authority to to get it done within a certain amount of days, and if not, it's the problem of the state and not the problem of the company.

Okay, yeah, I think that's uh that's uh that's a good point. And uh and so far since you you start up you you started with uh Austrian startup. What is the policy win that you're the most proud of? Did you make any any change here?

Um I mean it's difficult to say because there's it goes in completely different direction. I think this big school project that we're doing, yeah, that's mainly publicly funded. So I think getting that on the agenda and getting that to be supported in in the educational system, and also the the the ministry is is actually sending that out to the schools and and uh is actually behind that. I think that from the actual impact, probably I believe is is the biggest achievement.

In terms of what it potentially could become, um I believe what's also very uh the big step is the the flex call, which is a new legal setup that we introduced in um in Austria, which to be fair at the moment is is not a big step. It's just uh it's a small improvement, it's it's still an improvement, it's good. Um it made a few things less bureaucratic, you need for a few steps. You don't need a notary, um, you have a bit more possibilities to to get um your employees some something like stock options.

Yeah, um, so there's a few good steps in the right direction, but it's not the big step. But I think it's a door opener, yeah, because it was an enormous process. Six years to get this done with every institution. I mentioned the notaries, but also the the guys uh running the the registry the of companies, and everybody said, No, this is this is uh unbelievable, and our our country will end if we change something there.

And for us, it's also a way to show look, you can change a few things, and nothing will change, it will not be the end of the world. Okay, so our hope is now that again, step by step. So we open the door a little bit, we show everything's still fine, it's not a big disaster. We can make hopefully the next step in yeah, I don't know, three years, five years, we'll see when it's time to re-evaluate.

But yeah, so eventually, if we then get to a legal setup that is competitive, um, then this would be worth it. I hope also when we're now talking about the European setup, that coming from this the experience that we just had, yeah, that maybe it's easier to get get this through us on an Austrian level, we'll see. Um, but that was probably the biggest project that we had from the impact it had. I wouldn't say it's the the most important yet, but um, maybe it will still become it.

Uh I was just talking with uh a common friend of us uh together, and he was saying I was saying like, okay, I'm going to meet with Marcus tomorrow, and he was saying, like, uh, ask him about the flexco, ask him about the flex go. So, yeah, I think that's something which uh can you explain a bit more of what it is and uh what it isn't actually? Yeah, so um the flexco is you can in Austria, if you want to found a company, you can select uh different uh forms that that you can use, either an AG, which is the the one that is is very public, rather focused on bigger companies where it's easier to um get lots of investors on board, but the the running costs are quite high.

And the the one that most startups at the beginning used to use is the GmbH, which is like a limited liability company, um, but is actually not designed um for lots of investors or employees to get uh shares or stocks in in these companies. Because every time you you get someone on board, you actually need a notary, and it's super complex. And that's why the Flexco was designed as an alternative, something in between, if you want, where it's easier to get, for example, employees on board, where it's easier to get investors on board without the notary act.

Um, and uh yeah, this is now since two yeah, two years the flex do exists. If you look now at the numbers, I think 40 to 45 percent of startups that now are newly being founded are being founded as flexcos, which is is a clear sign that it makes sense. At the same time, again, the advantages are not uh immense yet. Yeah, for most of the things you still need the notaries.

The stock option thing is uh there is some limits to um uh some question marks there, some the tax benefit isn't that big as as as we thought it is. So it could be better, but it's enough that 40% say we go with it. I think the 60% is mainly because um, especially internationally, if you look to Germany, their flexco is not known yet as a word, so it uh GmbH probably still has more trust um there, and that's why I think especially if you're a B2B startup um tackling the German market, then it probably makes more sense still to go with the GmbH.

Yeah, but if you take this away, then I don't see there's any reason why you would not take the flex go, and that's what's reflected in the numbers, probably. Okay, good one. I will follow uh closely the flex when I'm looking forward to see what's next after the flex go. Us two, you two.

And um, you know, like um there was um uh a a joke for a joke for years uh where they were saying like um America innovate, China duplicates, Europe regulates. You think it's actually changing, or it's still mostly like a political marketing on this one? I mean, that was political marketing by by our friends from the US, and it was extremely effective. That was well done, well executed, and it hurt Europe a lot.

Okay, um, we are lucky that I think you see a bit of a counter-trend with Trump where just people sane people say, I don't want anything to do with that, I don't want to live in a country where politics are that crazy, where I don't know where this is going, whether it's still a democracy, and so on. So I think that's helping us, but otherwise, I think we would see an exodus of of people going to the US. Yeah, so we're lucky in that sense because our reaction on a European level was bad.

Um, and I I still fear for it because what we now I think we have some momentum, some counter-momentum going with the AO Inc. and and there is uh von der Leyen saying that that this will happen, and uh the Ragi report and and the letter report, all of them are very clear in saying we we need uh more startups. This is the the our future leading companies are the startups of today, and currently we're not producing enough of them, and we need a digital industry, a tech industry, we're missing that, and that's the main reason why the US economy has grown three times faster as the European economy in the last 10 years.

So um there's a narrative change, and this is also it's felt by the startup scene at the moment, but it's at risk right now, I believe, because I think tomorrow or the next few days they're supposed um to um at least internally um share their proposal for this AO Inc. Okay, which where there's a lot of hope of the startup scene on it. Yeah, and if that's um not a good solution and only some little compromise, then we have a real problem because then even the people who are really pushing the narrative in a pro-European way, they will be disillusionized, and and then I I'm not sure uh what will happen because then there will be also some I think some some a lot of emotion, I think there will be anger, yeah, and then I don't see how Europe can still build it.

And then there actually I I think France was uh or is still is a good example how politics can push an ecosystem forward. I mean I think I was uh personally in Paris 2021, I think, when Macron invited all the the the Nash the like the national ecosystems to the LEC um to discuss how we can build a European uh startup ecosystem. So um I think it uh the some kind of leadership helps, but then actually you need the the follow-up, and um we'll see where where that happens now. Super interesting.

And um you mentioned about the the Draghi report, uh, and uh I was looking into it, and they have been very tough into uh Europe as well. Yeah, saying like we are falling behind on on deep tech, on on scaling, and and so on. Um, do you agree with this kind of uh diagnosis? And um what would what would you change actually?

No, I I definitely agree with it. I've I've been agreeing it with it for a long time, so it's like I was very thankful to Draghi because I've I've been in these uh roundtables with the EU commission with countless commissioners that were in some way responsible for startup uh agenda over the last few years. I've seen them all, and I've that's exactly what I've told them all the time. If we don't get this right, our economy in general will suffer because it's not future-proof.

We we that's the the companies that we need in the future. Back then I don't think we were taken seriously, to be fair. And and Draghi definitely changed that. I think we are taking seriously now, and there is a clear acknowledgement of the problem on the European level, not in Austria.

If I talk to Austrian politicians, that acknowledgement is not there, and which I'm still shocked that even now, when the the economy is suffering, all we keep talking on on the on the broad national level is how can we save our industry? While the correct thing would be to ask, how can we build the industry of the future? But European level, we are already there. Um, and the problem is clear.

The question is yes, how bold can we be? How much power are we willing to also give to the European level? Because that's that's the key. In the end, we won't be able to compete if we keep being 27 separate member states that have their own uh legislative systems, their own tax code, all these things.

If if you want to scale as a European country, you need to learn every market again from the beginning. While in the US, you have the 300 million people right at your doorstep if you want. It's super easy to scale. And and this ability to scale, that we need to change, and that's why the the the EU Inc.

is is such an important proposal because it's it's it's a platform that you can build this European ecosystem on. For that, the the the national countries will have to be willing to give up some of their power uh to the European level, and that's where it will eventually be interesting. What how how far uh we'll manage to get there? Because of course, that's there's a lot of personal um pride and it's politic as well, I guess.

Yeah, exactly. But in that larger European uh structure, where does Austria sit? And do you believe it's also like a kind of a lab where to see like uh all a smaller country um can do it right? And uh and do you believe like um well also on what you mentioned about the mindset about the political situation and so on, do you believe there is a risk of being left behind while all the big ecosystems are kind of consolidating?

Yes. I I think that's the the real danger for Austria. Is now if this EO Inc. is not happening in the full-blown version, what will happen is that a few countries will say, Okay, if not everybody is willing to go along, we'll do this on our own.

And I mean, there's now this I think E6 it's called, like six countries that are pulling apart when it comes to um defense and and capital markets. And in the end, if Austria is not part of this and being so little as an economy, you you're not relevant anymore. Then all these smart, talented people will not start here, but will go obviously to this unified European space, and that's why I'm pushing so much on the national level. Austria needs to be part of that, because if not, it's the complete worst case.

And I'm not sure everybody understands it yet how how dramatic the the results of that would be. And I think it's it's unlogical because again, I think I would understand it if if Germany or France would say, okay, you know, but actually we have a big market on our own, but Austria needs this more than the big countries, and that's why I hope um we get on board. Super interesting. And um Austrian startups that sit a bit at uh an uh unusual position because you're not a VC, you're not government, uh, you're not a corporate as such.

And um what's the distinct value of being an organization like it is, and what can you do that other actors can't? Yeah, uh I mean our clear value I think is that we have full focus on on growing the pie for everyone. And growing the pie means building a bigger ecosystem, more people who who found, while other actors like VCs, they are focused on investing in great startups. And of course, they have an interest in in having a bigger pie and having more great companies here, but they can't focus on that, and that's clear distinctive value of Austrian startups.

We do that from a position of independence, of neutrality, where we also say, okay, we uh are not gonna just push the the topics that are relevant for our investment thesis are specific to what's relevant on a political level right now. We do that out of conviction that this is um the only way forward for for the Austrian economy, and I think um yeah, that's why it needs organizations like Austrian startups. I will tell you as well, something that you you can do that other actor cannot is actually sitting with me and uh opening up like this.

I feel as well the the the emotion behind, and as I feel as well the authenticity, yeah, like there's not a political uh point of view, it's more like I care about innovation, I care about the startup, uh around the community behind, and whatever government, whatever happened, I'm here to support them, and that's what you can do that other can't because there's no behind uh secret agenda behind because you just care about moving forward and innovation. That's correct. That's a great observation because this is the core of the foundation that we've built.

The idea is to build an organization that is here to drive this cultural change. It won't happen from today until tomorrow. It it needs a lot of time and effort and capital, and it needs the patience to do this through political cycles, through economic cycles, through trends that happen. Um and and that's in the end the USP of the foundation that we are able to provide that completely independent of what's happening around us.

I think that makes sense. And you you mentioned it at the beginning of the recording that you um that you want to make entrepreneurship in Austria as common as king, yeah. And what does that actually look like? If you were to say, like, okay, all my vision, all my plan are successful, what would be the the the painting in uh in 10 years?

Yeah, so my my goal would be again that if if you would ask people in Japan or in Brazilia or in uh Brazil or in in the US, yeah um about Austria, then it's not either kangaroos because they mistake us for Australia, or it's skiing or Mozart or the philomonics, yeah, might still be that. But I want them to say this is the place where you go if if you have great ambition, if you if you want to build something and and want to make the world a better place, if if you want. So so the place for ambitious builders, ambitious minds.

That's what what I want to be the perception of maybe not just Austria but Europe, to be fair, because I always say um Austria. Austria itself is always a stretch, but for Europe and maybe Austria, the core where this talent is produced, because that's again where I see our strength at the moment that we do produce amazing talent. And that we also have that cultural identity ourselves that we are proud of doing that, that we feel like a nation, a continent of entrepreneurs. And I I do that not just because I think it's economically necessary, but because I believe this is a way of life that is healthy.

I do believe that if you doing something that you're convinced of, if you're solving problems that you're passionate about, I think this is it makes life worth living, and I think it it also creates a happier and a healthier life. I'm inspired by myself. Thank you for this. And um on this section, like um, if a first-time founder is listening right now, trying to decide where in Europe to build a company, um, why they should give Austria um like a serious look?

Like, why what are the arguments on saying like you should come to Austria? I mean, depends what they are doing. I think for some things, I'm not sure if I wouldn try to convince them because in some areas, if you're a fast-moving consumer uh startup that needs a lot of VC money, maybe Austria is not the right place. But I think, for example, if you are building now, if you're into building uh AI agents, maybe having that ecosystem here that has been growing around OpenClaw over the last few weeks, where we have, for example, Mario Zechner and Armin Ronacher who were quite involved in that, and with Mario with Pi also has a system that I think, for example, the Shopify CEO just mentioned Toby Lütke as the thing that really uh he sees as the most useful.

And so I I think we do have uh a bit of an ecosystem here growing that is very interesting in this area. So this could be uh I think uh a proposal. I think if you're into life science, deep tech, strong public grant system, which yes, it sometimes can be slow and not as flexible as you we would hope for, but at the same time, this is equity-free money before you are ready for the market, before there is a private market for for what you're doing. So this is very attractive.

And yes, you do all of that in a country where the quality of life is still amazing and your costs of living are um still normal or uh affordable, which again at the beginning of building something is super important because um having a longer runway, um not burning through so much cash is super helpful. And uh plus as well, from um I just moved there a few months ago, but I feel there's a strong sense of a community, and I guess you are the best place on this one, but um, I feel there's a big community that uh that support each other, and uh, and uh I think that's good as well.

Thanks for mentioning that because I of course, for me, also the the difficult part of these things, I want to be honest, and and we have these cultural challenges of having a broad society that is not very supportive for our entrepreneurs. But what we do as Austrian startups is of course create the communities, the pockets of society where people are supportive, where it's not everyone telling you, no, this will never work, and why would you do it, but where there's other people who are inspired, who are ambitious and who cheer you on and and maybe also inspire each other?

So, yes, um definitely if if you're coming to Austria and and and want to build, if you are ambitious and um then I I think our programs, our events are are the place to be. There you go. And uh to go back to the main thesis of the recording today, do you think Austria and Vienna can be or become a startup hub in the future? Yeah, no, no, I I think that's in the there it's a necessity for especially Vienna.

Again, I see it in the European context. Yeah, but Vienna needs to be one of the startup hubs uh within Europe, and um that's a necessity from an economic perspective, but this is also the potential is really here. Yeah, we have amazing talent, we have the the universities, the research to build on. Um, we have the communities, we are right at the center of Europe, the hub between uh east and west, a great airport close to the city.

Um I I do think everything is there, it's just needs to be um the momentum needs needs to grow. We have good food, there's uh good wine, not as good as a French wine. It's a discussion for another day, but uh we I think there is a lot of of attraction to to Vienna in Austria. Okay, and um in terms of um Austrian startups that you uh that's uh that you see right now they deserve way more international attention that they are getting right now.

Is there's any few names or if you a few ideas that you believe that should get more attention? What what are they? Um I I mean one that that came through one of our programs, so so it's close to my heart. Um it's for example called Phonio.

Um they are uh uh an AI agent that does phone calls for you and growing like crazy. Yeah, um also now it started in the German-speaking market, but now expanding all over Europe. Um only did uh small um friends and family rounds and no VC money involved yet, but amazing numbers for that. And they are definitely one of the great examples of our ecosystem right now.

So the next big thing will be uh for you. That's it's a good bet, I would say. It's a good bet. Okay, and uh my last question on this like um if you had like a a big banner in the middle of of Vienna with uh something written on it that everyone could see, what would you put on it?

That's a good question. Um a slogan probably let's build the future or just fucking do it, or some kind of motivational message that gets people to take risks and be bold. Maybe it's be bold or be ambitious or dream big. Dream big, dream big.

I love this, yeah. Take risks, be bold. No, that's I think that's uh yeah. But um actually uh we're going to to wrap it up, but thank you so much for for the conversation today.

And that's exactly the kind of conversation that uh why I created the podcast as well, to have this kind of authentic conversation, raw conversation. Uh and um yeah, there's no political agenda, it's just like uh we care about uh um an industry which is today the the the startup and uh entrepreneurship, and uh and I think like you you change a bit my my my thinking around it and uh and step by step I'm more and more convinced that Austria and Vienna can become a startup hub, uh, because you have some very solid arguments uh behind.

So, yeah, well done on all the jobs done so far. Looking forward to see what's uh what's next. A lot of things, I believe, on on this. And um, if people want to follow you or if they want to to know a bit more about uh or stay connected, uh, where do they find you?

Um on most channels, I would say. I uh definitely on LinkedIn, on um on our website, um austrian startups.com. Um, you also find me on on X and Instagram, although I'm not posting that much there.

But um I would also recommend you to uh yeah, subscribe to our podcast. It's German speaking. Um, but if if if you're speaking German, then I think it's a great resource to um twice per week be inspired on an entrepreneurial level. Okay.

It's a good training. It's a good training, yeah. And that's okay. You you speak all deutsche, so yeah, we understand, and uh that's uh that's okay.

I've actually I give it a try and it was it was fine. But before we go and before we wrap up, I wanted to give you a book actually. That's something which uh I've started now. Maybe you know about it.

It's uh it's a book by um by Mariana Mazukato. Do you know it? I yeah, I read it quite a while ago, okay, but I think it's it's it's a great one. Um Marianna, I think there's a lot.

Actually, you remember that uh you you mentioned the the conversation that I had with the Austrian chancellor back when I started Austrian startups. In this conversation, he mentioned this book, and that's why I 10 years ago I think I uh I read that. I think it's a good one. Plus, you can practice your I mean your English is perfect, but uh it's in English, and uh and um so so for everyone it's uh it's called uh the entrepreneurial state, and uh that give a case between uh the responsibility of the state and the responsibility of the private area, and to look at um yeah, with sticking ownership on it.

And what it also does is it goes away from these old narratives of you know something we're striving with, just like state versus private sector and um employers versus employees, and it it shows that these fates uh intertwine and you need to also in the state think entrepreneurs. So I highly recommend it and thanks a lot. Um it's time to revisit it. I appreciate it.

Cool, but um, so thank you so much for for being here and and sticking with us until uh until the end of this recording. Um, but again, if you if you follow the full conversation, I believe Austria and Vienna as something generally um something interested, uh interesting about uh about entrepreneurship and and and Austrian um and and startups overall. Um and I do believe in the future of what's coming. Um so to answer the question of main thesis, is Austria, is Vienna uh a future or is currently a startup hub?

Um yes, still a long way, uh not a long way, but there's still a way to go, like a few areas to to improve, but definitely some uh some good um ingredients. Um, talents are here, um, you have a lot of of ideas, we just need more more momentum. Uh everyone needs to take more risk, be bold, and uh drive more innovation in the country, but a lot a lot of potential, and I believe everything is uh moving in the right direction. Also, thanks to Marcus and uh and Austrian startup and the team.

Very well done. Uh so yeah, very happy to be here, very grateful to for you to uh to to be uh to to be with us until uh until now. And um voilà this is uh HXC212, and I will see you on the next one. Thank you.