Sapna Shah, of Sie ventures, joins Guy to discuss being a strategic partner to a founder and CFOs and seed investing

Speaker A: Mhm. Welcome to CFO Insights, the leading podcast for finance professionals in disruptive tech, brought to you by the startup CFO community. I'm Guy Hutchinson and I'm the host of the podcast as well as being a tech cfo. In this episode, I'm joined by Sapna Shah, syndicate lead and venture partner at C Ventures, as well as a seed investor in, uh, her own right and a fractional cfo. Sapna and I dive into the focus area for her investments, exploring the importance of network in key verticals and how to support founders and shaping a big vision for investment. She shares her insights from her work as a fractional cfo. And you'll certainly want to hear our discussion on how CFO parents seek to shape the next generation. Satna, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you on.

Speaker B: Thank you for inviting me, Guy. I'm really excited about our conversation today.

Speaker A: Uh, that's okay. That's right. I mean, uh, we obviously see each other at the Startup CFO events maybe once or twice a year. Uh, always enjoyed our conversations. You've got a really unique viewpoint on this role of the CFO piece, where through your work partly as a fractional cfo, partly as an investor working with funds, uh, you have a quite a unique angle on some of the most important things that CFOs and finance professionals do. So I'm just really grateful just to have you on and to, uh, learn a bit about your career and the kind of things that you're doing.

Speaker B: Great. Thank you so much. Um, so I guess a little bit about me then. I will start with that. I am American, as you can tell from my accent, even though I've been here for 20 years. Uh, I started off, um, with the big four, got qualified there in the US, um, at KPMG. And then I moved over in, I moved over to London and I went into banking. Um, also did, did a stint in Gibraltar at ah, Baker Tilly, working with hedge funds, um, and offshore, um, clients there because that's what really existed there for audit. Um, and then a good decade of banking and then I went into property and almost a good decade in property. And then from there I've gone into doing fractional CFO work, helping scale ups and startups and starting my diversification of my own investments, which led me to getting into angel investing, which has led me to leading, um, C Ventures, Female Syndicate, and also, um, now helping as an investment lead, uh, with Ariac.

Speaker A: Yeah, fantastic. And I'm really curious actually, uh, did some of the work you did earlier in your career with hedge funds. Was that quite formative in terms of setting you up to think about maybe, uh, working with investors or maybe investing yourself? Was that process sort of important on sort of setting out how you now think about these things?

Speaker B: I guess it gave me a breath of how different investment vehicles run. So, um, being within auditing hedge funds, um, actually looking into the financial industry, like financial service industry, because I started with retail banking, which you can then see all the products that are offered there, um, to then going into the investment banking arm in banking. So I've kind of seen the whole breadth of where your different investments can lie. Um, and then property, which is your bricks and mortars, um, and knowing what's there in terms of commercial property. What people are looking at that are directors within the property sector, within the commercial and residential. Um, and to be honest, my first diversification of my own investments did kind of lie in the property sector. Um, and then from there it was looking at, well, what can I do to diversify my portfolio? And knowing that there is a tax benefit to investing within the uk, that means that angel investing becomes a much easier play. And that's how the whole angel investing started for me.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that that's, that's something that lots of people stumble across is that over here we do have some strong tax breaks and it does make it appealing to get stuck in. But I guess also as part of your work you've got a perspective about the kind of sectors that you like to get involved in, you like to invest in. Uh, how have you formed a view on those things?

Speaker B: So before seed ventures, um, from just my own personal angel investing view, I kind of worked very much within the industries that I understood and then I picked a topic that I wanted to know more about. Um, so, so for me it started with, you know, prop tech and Fintech, because those are industries I've sat in. I understand very well. I have connections to, um, I then went into MedTech because of the people that I know back in the US and I, and I still think, um, I think it will change eventually. But still venture and exits, the larger ones still exist in the US versus the European market. And anywhere else. Um, so I always go back to my US um counterparts that sit within that industry and learn more and ask details of what's actually there. Um, and for me that kind of made my third proposition being like health tech and med tech. But then I, I niched down into women's, um, health a lot more and the reason being is I think there's a lot less that, that exists within the women's health piece. Um, and therefore I think that there's a larger opportunity for growth and real like exit opportunities, um, and acquisitions, because it is kind of a blank slate, even though it's, you know, people have been developing there and for years. But, you know, besides like fertility and other really large concepts, there's a lot of areas within women's health that really, till now haven't really been researched and there hasn't been any comp, any company that's really made a focus to it. Um, and so others are now catching on. There are a lot more funds for them than, you know, for women's health companies than there were before. Um, and so I do think that that was exciting. I, that led me to kind of meeting Trinh, um, at Sea Ventures and who has been doing a program for female founders. Um, so there, the thesis there is that, you know, somebody, a female has to be a founder of the company, has to have the same equity as everybody else that's there. Um, and it's sector agnostic. But I met Trinh through some fintech and prop tech propositions and then she had a syndicate lead leaving and that meant that she kind of, she wanted to fill the spot. Um, and we got along really well. So she said, would you come and, and, and work with me on mat leave? During the mat leave and I hopped on and I was like, yeah, that sounds interesting. I mean, I'm angel investing anyway, so might as well, um, do it a little more formally and try to see if there's more that I can help with. Um, nine, ten months later, I've still, I'm still there and I'm leading the syndicate. But it me m, it means that I've been able to expand, um, in the sectors that I invest in now, but also be the sectors that I look at because C Ventures is sector agnostic. But they, because they've been around for so long, they actually have experts that are angels and other experts that we follow on, um, in different sectors like climate sustainability. Um, so it's been a great learning journey.

Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds like your experience at Sea has been informed by the fact that you've got a lot of domain knowledge in two or three spaces. You've got a personal network in those verticals as well. So when something comes your way, you've got people you can immediately go to to leverage their knowledge alongside your knowledge. You can inform a view as to whether this is something that you'd want to do through the fund or you could do personally, I suppose. Uh, and uh, I think for a lot of people starting out to think about being involved in a syndicate or something like this, a lot of CFOs as they get uh, more experience and um, frankly become more successful, want to go and do things like this. That's great, that's great advice. It might be interesting just to circle back to some of the fractional work. Right. Because this bit where you're jumping between the two disciplines, like part of you is this fractional cfo, part of you is more focused on the investment side. When you've got the fractional CFO hat on and you're working with founders, how do you think about adding value? What things do you immediately go to to help founders?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I, I guess, I mean most of the uh, fractional work I do uh, is with one sort of female founder that's there. Um, usually it's mixed teams but I have had somewhere it's all female. And what I try to do is um, really install basic financial fundamentals. Um, and to do that like I, when I build out a financial model, what I will do is I will really get them to drive inputs that exist. Um, we will work with the questions that are around the inputs and then the financial model will be built out with lots of notes and then we will go over that. But I really want them to walk away with it being an instrument that they use all the time. Because as an investor I look at the Runway like the burn rate, the Runway. How are you kind of working towards like I will ask the question a lot of times if they are revenue generating. Well, you know, this is your forecast but you know, what are your actuals looking like to your forecast so that I know that where are they really going to lie in that burn rate and Runway, Are they actually burning more money than they've thought that they're going to burn? And which means that their 18 month Runway that they're showing me in the forecast is actually going to be a 12 month Runway. And do they actually understand that and know that? Because the largest thing I think that's stops um, founders from really getting successful companies is that a lot of them are at a back foot in the fundraise because they don't, they don't keep track of it on a monthly basis and therefore they don't know sometimes that they're not sticking to their forecast. And they, the lower amount of cash that you have, the lower kind of, unless you Have a lot, a, uh, huge sales pipeline that's basically been signed and waiting to kind of convert. And you can convert it. You're at a back foot with investors. Right. And I think it's really important for founders to understand that and understand that it takes, you know, a good six months for people to really understand you, get to know you, um, from an investment side of you. So for me it really is about like the whole teaching the financial fundamental, um, and I really enjoyed that. So I, you know, there's times where all I'll do is they'll build out their own financial model and then I will go in and I will pick things apart and I will do workshops with them on what is missing, what they might not have constructed properly themselves. Um, and that's something I really enjoy doing too. So for me, I think with founders, and I don't know what it is about the uk, but I do find that um, founders do, unless they have a commercial person who, you know, they really are very commercially driven, um, they, they do find it a little hard sometimes to articulate the financial model, um, and really the importance of it and versus just like your go to market and your sales Strategy and your IP. And I will always say this, 90% of businesses failed because they run out of cash, not because they didn't have a good idea.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's really interesting because there's two points there really, isn't it? It sounds like a lot of your work. Making sure that the founder is in a good place in terms of things like Runway and just having a financial plan that makes sense, that they can convey is really about this piece around levers. Right. Even early stage businesses, in the end you have levers, you have things that you do that burn cash, like hiring people. And you have things that drive income and drive inward cash flow and that's the clients you're winning, the business you're acquiring, etc. Etc. And how that's structured. Uh, and it seems to me that some of your collaborations with the founders, it's as much to teach them about how the levers of their business are all joining up and how they can think about their business as a series of sequential levers around growth and product and things like this and that happens to fall out into a spreadsheet, but it's as much about just learning what your business levers are as it is about the output.

Speaker B: Yeah, it really is. I mean what people gain with me, I guess is, um, because I don't do the day to day financials uh, anymore. What I, what I will do is it is a lot about the financial strategy, uh, and where are you going with it so they, you gain that place. Plus kind of some fundamentals of looking at, okay, this is what you need to look at. Or when I help with board packs, I will put like distinct things of for 18 months. Your run, your monthly burn can only be this. Um, and I will then make them go back and look at their own financial model to their actuals and say, where are you really? Are you actually going to meet this or have you underestimated, um, on what you think and what, what meat are you going to cut out? Which sometimes means that I say you have to cut me out. Right, um, because you can't really afford me and it doesn't really help me. But uh, I'm honest about it and it's like you really just need to learn this and stick to it, but you need to save to get to the next milestone.

Speaker A: And um, that kind of advice. At some level it sounds like what you saying about female founders that you're working with, uh, it feels like you're saying that some of that work is keeping the founder out of trouble in the seed stage where they won't have much cash. There's a lot of onus to build a business, to make some proof points, to make sure the product's got a genuine, a genuine product market fit. But I think there's also something here about you're helping them to convey what their business will look like when it's a bit bigger, when they're ready to go for their Series A and they're meeting the bigger funds, the bigger names, uh, and it's probably just them on the spot because normally at a Series A it would be the founder pitching on their own. They don't normally bring the team with them at that point. So it sounds like you're also setting them up to be able to convey what they understand about the business, how they think about their financial projections, where they could get to in terms of revenue, how they acquire customers, things like this.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean from a seed Series A, I do say that the funds that are going to lead and the funds that are coming in, they do tend to get to know everybody in the team. Um, but what they do want to know, um, so there'll be different people who are talking to them from a fun perspective or a syndicate perspective. And they will all have their specialities. So some will be, you know, the operations person. So that is what they're looking at. Right. Some will be the financial people like me. That's what we're looking at. And then some will be. I just want to, um, really know how these, the founders actually, um, operate, how they convey the story, how they're going to get the customers, and then the whole, whole formula behind it will be then formed based off of that. Um, but in a series a. Yes, you have a lot more numbers and a lot more, um, points. People already start asking about that at a seed stage. They're not, not asking. So, you know, when sometimes you'll hear somebody saying, oh, you know, the financials don't always matter as much, but they do because, uh, everybody's always going to ask you, what's your ltv? What's your cac? What are you spending? What's your ratio? What's your burn rate? That all comes from, like a very solid financial model. It doesn't come from things that you wouldn't necessarily understand. So, yes, maybe they don't expect you to know, like complete nutty gritties, but if you're in a regulated market, you do have to know that because regulation is very expensive, it takes longer. Have you really thought about it properly? Where have you gotten your quotes? Um, and different things like that. And it is a harder market. So there are a lot more questions that happen at an earlier stage than people are really prepared, um, for sometimes

Speaker A: I feel, Yeah, I think from a founder's viewpoint, if you can find people who invest early on that can help to shape your skills so that they're more relevant at the stage that comes a year later, three years later, whenever it doesn't really matter, um, really adds lots of value. It does sound like a lot of that is the kind of things that you're doing. And one thing that you've mentioned to me when we've spoken before, I know you've hinted at this kind of interest you have in some, maybe some areas that have not received sufficient investment or engagement in the past, like female health. Um, you've also mentioned to me that there are certain things where you work with female founders. You help them to sort of unlock their superpowers and really kind of excel as they go into these later, uh, stages of building their business. Be interesting just to hear some of your viewpoints, a few lessons about, uh, the kind of things that you can do to help somebody like that.

Speaker B: Yeah, so, I mean, with C Ventures, because we have a program, um, we get to know the founders really well. And I think when we get to know the founders and I, I didn't come in through the entire program. But when I do the Catalyst companies, so the six or seven companies that are picked, I will hear them pitch and from a pitch you can understand really where their comfort lies. Right. So then when you have a one to one conversation you'll also understand where um, if you ask them a question they might find it a little trickier. Now funny enough, not all female, but a lot of female um, don't feel as confident sometimes when it's not completely their area or uh, their expertise in that part of the company. And what I've tried to do is say look you, you do have it and you know it, you just really need to prep for it. So that means you know, just keep answering the question yourself and really know it inside out. Where I find sometimes when it's a mixed team, you know, the male counterpart might sometimes go in and answer it even if it's not necessarily their area. But. And the female founder could have potentially answered it better. It's just she didn't feel as confident. So sometimes it's working with them after they've worked with their eirs, um, and, and also unlocking it because what C does differently is they get an eir who really does help them unlock that potential because they get a lot of one to ones with them and then they get a lot of pitch feedback. But I do find um around numbers, especially female uh, founders to shy away. And again I don't know what it is. If it's something with the educational piece, um, in the UK where you don't necessarily have to learn maybe business um fundamentals where in the US we do have to learn. If you go to university you do learn like your basic accounting business structure running um, so that basic knowledge is there and you feel a little more confident even if it's not your area of like comfort if that makes sense. Um, so it's working, really working with them. And then different personality types boast differently. I do find females don't boast as much about their matrix as um, sometimes you know, the counterparts do and it's really getting them to go in and say I've achieved this, this is what's achieved here. Um, and really boast about their vision.

Speaker A: Yeah, that, that is interesting because it's sort of, it feels like it's not about the skills, feels like it could be about the kind of attitude that people bring. And you're quite right. You know a lot of UK CFOs, entrepreneurs, just people in the ecosystem generally, they, they'll often Say look, you know, uh, if you compare how, how we behave as Brits compared to Americans, for example, uh, we're much less likely to sort of, uh, be boastful or to uh, feel comfortable talking about our successes and we can actually really overdo the piece where we're a bit modest and we feel that we shouldn't really make too much noise about things that they've done really well. Uh, and yet at some level, if you're going to go and build a high growth business and you've got to impress people with what an amazing outcome this will be in the end, uh, you kind of have to unlock those skills, don't you?

Speaker B: Yeah, you really do. Um, and, and I think the thing other, other part about it is, is that you really, it kind of feels like, and it's not a self belief thing, but it comes across as that sometimes. Um, and I think it's again, it's an attitude. Right? So if somebody even asks you a question and it's something that you're caught off guard, it's how you kind of answer it with confidence and then go about doing something in the background. And it is because I think the English culture teaches you to be, you know, polite about everything and maybe boasting comes out as not being potentially polite, I'm not sure. But in the ecosystem it works against you because you do have to really push your matrix and what, what your IP is and why you're going to be high growth and why you're going to bring returns because that's the only way to get investment.

Speaker A: I completely see that. And uh, I could see that there's still work to be done in UK and European businesses where in the end like the model, the model where venture capital type money goes into a business which is risky, with the idea that some of them become huge successes and some of them just don't. Right. And it's a game of numbers. I think the minute that you've got your head around that being essentially a business model that was born in Silicon valley in the 60s and 70s, uh, and has come here much, much later and needs to be respected a little bit as a US way of doing business. Right. It's definitely not something that was happening um, here before and that there's a little bit of a need for people to mirror those behaviors where hey, look, I know that I wasn't brought up to be like this, but I'm gonna pitch and I'm gonna sing my praises and I'm gonna give you like a big story. Uh, because that, that's the game we're in. And if you don't go about doing that then the venture model, um, won't necessarily think it's a matchup for you and you might not succeed in the way that you could do.

Speaker B: No, I agree. Um, and it is a, it's a number game. Every venture does have a different model. So you know, 75% of ventures are really about like the big exits. Um, there were some life science ventures I have to say that take it in a different way where they're very, they are playing on every single investment, kind of giving them a 2 to 5x return. Um, and that the mathematically also works out very much like the other venture part. But they are all scientists and so when they're looking at it, they are looking at it very much from a scientific perspective. But they also know how to help those companies get the contracts that they need to. Um, so it's funny, there's various different people who do model certain things a little differently. Like I met a woman um, just the other day who she has a healthcare VC that they're doing and it's completely different model, um, where they go in seed series A and they go in with strategic investors that they know might buy them out. Um, and they're really looking at just getting them through certain regulatory clearances uh, within you know, the US and then knowing that they had that exit already kind of mapped out. Um, and again they are also doing it on a little bit of a different model. So it's really for like the actual founder to also understand what model is there somebody doing something a little different? Like there's another, you know, venture that in the UK that is doing something very different. They only go into scale up companies and they have a very different structure. Um, so there are people who are now playing with different structures out there too. Um, which I find really interesting because some of them are actually there. You know, there's another one that is I think a venture that's all created by accountants. It was all people who were accountants before and they've gone in and they evaluate things a little differently, they've structured it a little differently. Um, so there are people playing with different matrix as well within the industry to see if there's something else that wins us, uh, along with the old traditional VC idea.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's long history of there being uh, funds with a similar remit as a VC that would have to invest in, in parallel. Uh, and the point that you made earlier where you Were talking about a founder where, uh, that individual has domain knowledge which helps them to build the business. But also the domain knowledge means that they also know probably many of the potential acquirers already. Uh, and so it's much easier to have a foot in the door for a dialogue about a strategic investment, uh, or maybe even a conversation at some point about being acquired and having that all important exit. So that piece where you're meeting a female founder, uh, and they're bringing essentially two really valuable pieces wrapped up in one, which is I know the industry, I know where the gap is. I know how to build a product. I also know the people that might invest and might buy. Buy this in the end.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, it is a minefield. Um, I do think the fractional CFO space is very interesting because all of us do different things and have different expertise. So I love sitting in the different rooms of like the events that you bring out as well and meeting different people because all of us have had different backgrounds, but we're also doing very different things, um, within the fractional CFO range as well. So, you know, some are really, they're stuck in the weeds a little more. Uh, and some of us are doing more of like the. Very much like a strategic piece with some fundamentals that need to be put in. Um, so I do find it really interesting going to all the CFO events still, because like I said, I think there's not a one size fits all in the fractional CFO world anymore.

Speaker A: Oh, for sure. It's a really broad church. And I think there are lots of different flavors of fractional people. Uh, I think the market hasn't managed to figure out how to convey that yet because people are typically using the same job title, even though the flavors can be quite different. And, uh, it's really interesting that you reflect on that, but also great segue into one thing that I wanted to pick your brains on. So one of the themes is that there's an element of partnering here, right? The CFO is a business partner and you might be involved through C. Or you might be involved because they're a fractional client. Uh, and I think a lot of people sort of going into their head of finance role or maybe embarking on a fractional CFO career, there's a counterbalance piece. And this counterbalance piece is important because, uh, it helps to de risk things that founders might otherwise do. It's essentially a part of being the strategic cfo. And I'm just curious, like, what would your recommendations be for somebody who wanted to be sure that they were being the best counterbalance that they could be.

Speaker B: So I guess, um, what I would say is really understanding what the founder wants when you're accepting a fractional role. Right. Um, and then taking two steps back. And it comes from experience. So again, because the fractional world has people who have, you know, 15 years of experience along with people who have 30 years of experience. And in between it's actually knowing, do I really, am I going to really bring the value that they need? Um, and then being honest about this is what I am willing to do and this is what I'm not willing to do. You can get a cheaper accountant. Um, and I think it's just knowing that kind of play of am I doing strategy? Am I doing strategy plus some day today? And like you said, because there's such a variety, it's not really, there's no standard. And when you see kind of, I guess, job descriptions, a lot of times I think the fractional CFO piece, and I've said this to certain founders, go into a little more detail than what they should be paying that person to necessarily do. And it's like, are you sure you want to structure it this way? There's a way that you might be able to structure it better by having a fractional accounting team where that CFO is just reviewing things. But actually it's so much cheaper for you to do it that way around.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think sometimes that that's the hard bit is for the CFO not to be drawn into certain day to day activities. Uh, and to really have a strict demarcation between accounting reporting and the more strategic things. Certainly you can save a client a lot of money if you can achieve that. But it's not always as, as clear cut as that when you're out there in the field and things are done under pressure and the CFO might be expected to sort of overstep into reporting from time to time.

Speaker B: No, and I agree. I mean, and they should to a certain extent like have overview, um, and also know that because that is part of it. But it's more of like you've kind of now gotten into the nitty gritty and is that really your space and have you hurt their Runway versus helping their Runway and where you kind of go And I guess I always go back to runways. Working with scale ups and startups is different when you're with more established businesses that are kind of at a series B and onwards, um, that then do require that fractional person to be so much more involved, um, along with like an FD and a proper accounting team. But I think in the earlier stages it is really just understanding who you need for what. And that strategic person being very. This is where you need me and this is where you shouldn't be using me. And it helps. And it, I think also from a fractional, it's scary going into fractional work, right? Because it's kind of like if you didn't start off at one of the consulting firms, you don't really know how it works with like your clients building up your clients. And it is also your own Runway. So it's sometimes like, well, do I want to not take that Runway piece myself? And as a counterbalance of being comfortable enough to kind of say, okay, this is where I draw the line and I'll take on somebody else for something else. Um, so it's tricky. I think for anybody starting in the fractional world. It is a very tricky space. Um, you're always marketing yourself, you're always selling yourself as well to make sure that you have enough Runway coming in for your own, um, day to day.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's one of the areas where somebody new to fractional work can feel quite uncomfortable. Where you've got to genuinely have a marketing strategy as to how you meet your clients. You've got to correctly identify the ones that you're a good fit for and the ones that even if you're offered it, you might pass on that because maybe it's just, it's just not for you. Uh, and that can be hard with your experience of fractional work. If you were talking to somebody that was maybe coming out of full time to go into fractional for whatever reason, often it's lifestyle reasons. Uh, but if somebody was at that junction in terms of making a decision, are there some elements of advice you would share about. Hey, look, these are things to think about before you take the plunge.

Speaker B: So I mean, there's a risky way to do it, which is to completely leave permanent, A, um, permanent position. And there's a de risked way to do it where you can have a, if you're lucky enough to find a decent part time, FD or CFO role that is really part time. Um, and you establish yourself, you can start playing in the fractional on the extra days that you have and really build what it is that you enjoy doing. There's also the. I'm really good at these particular pieces of the financial world and this is what I'm going to Offer and really build out what it is that you want to offer and be very strict about that, um, and start building clients based off of that. And that does mean going to a lot more events, um, and really understanding that before you take the plunge. I guess I, I kind of am in the middle. I probably started fractional a lot later in my career. So for me I could do it somewhat in the more riskier way where I think I, if I had started it a little earlier, uh, in my career, I would have probably done found something where I could have had a stable income for two to three days a week and then started really picking out what I wanted to do fractionally and then slowly pushing myself out of the stable and adding more clients. And um, but I guess that's just like overview, ah, of how I would feel comfortable if I was a little earlier on in my career versus when I did it.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's brilliant advice and I think it'd be super relevant now. Uh, so thank you for sharing that. And look, this has been a really great conversation. I've super enjoyed this. I think there's a lot of people who might uh, be interested in doing some early stage investing that can really glean some valuable nuggets. And certainly for uh, people looking at fractional work, um, there's a lot of value to get from things we've talked about. So look, thank you very much for coming on. But before we wrap up, uh, there was something we were talking about just before we hit the record button that I'd like to bring into the podcast recording if that's okay. So you and I are, ah, in the UK and we're recording this roughly in the middle of July and the kids broke up recently and we both have children. And uh, we were talking about this overlap between parenting and being a finance leader. And you shared, um, some really, uh, fun and interesting insights as to how you think about that. So it'd be great just to wrap up the podcast recording with Sat Nishar's perspective on being a finance leader and parenting.

Speaker B: Well, it's funny, I think I um, do want to, I do a lot of different things. I think again, I'm a little wary of finance. What's taught in terms of learning financials and how to sustain yourself in the uk. So for my kids, like in the us, um, they have something called green light. And I think in a conversation that we had once before, we spoke about it where you can take a small amount of money and put it into different investments and see how it Works, which means that you start thinking about, how do I save money and where can I put it? Um, and that is how I was raised. So my parents were immigrants in the US and my parents always reminded me of. I came into this country with only $2, and the only way to ever make a living is to think about how you're going to save and how you're going to grow. And, um, it was basically installed in my head. Um, my kids are a little more fortunate than that. When they've started their life where I. But I still go into that, where they'll be like, well, you know, it's not that much. And I was like, yeah, go try to earn that. See how much, how long it will take you to earn it. Um, and find a way to earn the money. And so, you know, they'll come up with creative ways to kind of go about saying, okay, well, you're not going to help me. So I'm going to try to figure it out. Which could be, you know, selling items on Vinted and then coming through that way. Um, and then it's also looking at, like, learning life skills. So sometimes I'll say, okay, well, if you go and learn a few life skills somehow, whether it's volunteering or creating, you know, going on and teaching yourself something, then I will also help you fund something else. But I find, and it is a really hard market, and I think that's where I look at it, is I think the people who had that sort of entrepreneurial, let me go find it, let me teach myself something while I'm off on these eight weeks, but still have a good time. So not. I'm not telling them to do it all the time, but it is just learning how to have certain skills. Because sometimes I find the younger generation don't necessarily want to do the muck. And if you've never done the muck, you don't really know how to kind of handle the muck is how, in a. In a weird way. Um, and so I think, like, through volunteering and things, and you and I were talking about DMV and how they have to volunteer and how that can also lead to something you like, which could lead to a summer job eventually. So I think it's those things pushing your kids outside of their boundaries.

Speaker A: I would agree with all of that. I think there is something about modern parenting where as, uh, parents, we might put too much infrastructure in place to fill their holiday time, and so they're not quite left alone to figure some stuff out. Uh, I also Agree that the way the world of work has evolved is that uh, people don't want to do the things that are hard and grimy and repetitive. And yet many of those skills are sort of fundamental things like, you know, just reconciling your credit card statement, knowing that you actually did spend all those items. There's nothing funny on there, for example, like those are amazing life skills. Uh, and sort of echoing your point, I think my 10 year old son, his school did. Is it the Virgin money, um, scheme where uh, there's a sense that they invest something in a business and they try to build a business and they pitch it into the other people in the classroom. They're kind of in teams with their friends. Like a really good simulation of what it takes to be an entrepreneur. Uh, and I think there's a bit of a framework from version on that. And I guess at some point, on a UK perspective, I suppose Richard Branson is kind of like the granddaddy of entrepreneurialism in this country. Uh, and so it's not so surprising that it's come out of the Virgin brand. But um, yeah, really interesting to hear how you um, set out the stall for your children and expect them to um, build a few skills that might become something that could give them options. Right, because that's kind of all we can do, right, is to help them have the foundational skills to have options for later on. He says, before an entire generation gets used to AI being their principal means of researching and perhaps their principal way of problem solving, when a lot of that was them doing the research themselves, figuring out what the possible solutions could be, thinking about the pros and cons, uh, whether it's Claude or OpenAI, it doesn't really matter. Um, there's going to be a generation that are less likely to exercise that muscle. And that's probably the fundamental differential of humanity is this, this ability to solve those things. Uh, so, yeah, um, it's an interesting time to be a parent. Let's, let's be honest about it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I mean I think it'll be interesting if somebody is actually clocking like how people's memory works, um, over different generations. Um, just because I think if it's like a muscle, right, it's muscle memory. If you don't use it by the time you're older, by the time, you know, people are our age, what will their memory potentially be like, um, if they're not using it in a certain way. But yeah, interesting. I can talk about all the things I, the mean things I, I, or the nice things I think I do. But my kids don't think they're very nice sometimes because I'm probably a lot more old school on how I'm making them do certain things so that they have, yeah, a little more financial resilience than what I'm scared of for the generation that's here.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think we both share those concerns. And uh, it's an incredible time to be working. Uh, and it occurred to me actually the other day that uh, there'll be certain categories that uh, would seem like an insane business model maybe two years ago that in this moment where AI is sort of encroaching into everywhere that people are working, uh, I can imagine things like, I can imagine that maybe in five or ten years time there might be a chain of mind gyms where you go along and you participate in a class. But the class is to be doing like kind of mentor type kind of problem solving because everybody's work is just managing 10, 15, 20 AI agents. Uh, and that in itself would be relatively repetitive and probably quite light on problem solving actually. Uh, and that you might like. The same way that we got used to a really sedentary lifestyle and we signed up for a gym gym to work out our bodies because our bodies were not being fully utilized in our eight, nine, ten hours of work. Um, I could see mind gyms being a thing like not all that far away. It's going to be a remarkable period of time with business models that were completely unbelievable merging into something that might, that might actually happen.

Speaker B: I agree. I think that's a good one. That's, that's one that people like me and you could be like experts at because, because we, we were business chapter.

Speaker A: Our um, our podcast listeners heard it here first. I just don't think we'll get the patent or the trademark of the copyright. I suspect it's just one of those things. But um, you heard it here first. Anyway Sapna, um, this has been a really enjoyable and uh, broad and diverse conversation. I've really, really, um, had a great time recording this podcast. Thank you very much for being up for this. Uh, obviously we will put your details in, um, the episode notes so that anybody who wanted to reach out to you can contact you through LinkedIn or, or through sea. Uh, but a huge thank you from me for being on the podcast.

Speaker B: Definitely thank you for inviting me and I'd love to get more CFOs into um, investing. I do think they make some of the best investors personally. That's my own bias but I will, I will stick to it. I do think that they tend to evaluate businesses completely differently. Um, and we just tend to be risk averse people initially. But the tax benefits do really help um, in the risk averseness. Um, but yeah, I do think it's, I think it's great when I think fractional CFOs also tend to like a lot of female founders, um, because their financials and logics are very much more grounded sometimes. Um, and so they can see eye to eye which I think is interesting. But yeah, I'd love to continue more conversations guy. Always end up going over with you and never finishing on time because our conversations flow so naturally.

Speaker A: Uh, that is completely fine. It's been great fun and uh, there's some great lessons and we will get more CFOs to enter the world of investment for sure.

Speaker B: Sounds good.

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