Dr. Veronika von Heise-Rotenburg, CFO & MD @Everphone, shares lessons of raising capital, debt funding and the importance of the CEO partnership

Speaker A: Welcome to CFO Insights, the leading podcast for finance professionals in disruptive tech, brought to you by the startup CFO community. I'm Guy Hutchinson and I'm the host of the podcast as well as being a tech CFO. In this episode I'm joined by Dr. Veronika von Heisse Rothenberg, CFO and MD at Everphone, an expert in the discipline of financial leadership, also a speaker and now a published author. Uh, we talk about Veronica's insights from her CFO career. We take a deep dive into the topic of debt funding, discussing different solutions the startup or Scale up might appraise. We also shine a light on the importance of the CEO CFO relationship, highlighting key elements in taking that relationship to a high level of performance. Veronika, welcome onto the podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you too for the invite forward to our discussion.

Speaker A: Yeah, me too, me too. Uh, we've always had great chats. I've been over in Munich, uh, a couple of times the last three years. We've caught up. Always enjoyed hearing about the things you're doing in your career. Great. Always to hear about the kind of scale that you've reached in terms of the kind of businesses that you're working with and the fact that you have this very strong interest in supporting your peers through groups like Startup CFO and similar groups in Germany. Uh, and you've got this real passion for, uh, shaping finance careers for people that are working in these high growth businesses. Uh, and so m, I'm really pleased to have you on. Really pleased that we picked this fantastic topic of debt, equity and the toolkit in between.

Speaker B: Thank you for those very flattering words. I'm blushing.

Speaker A: That won't show up in the podcast recording, luckily. But look, um, before we dive into the topic that we've picked, I really do think it's a fantastic topic. We'll get lots and lots of interest in this recording. It'd be really good if we could just um, maybe hear a little bit about your career. Um, and also a little bit about the fact that you have written a book very recently and that's something that not many CFOs do and so be great sort of to hear your background and just to um, hear how you've built up to your recent publication.

Speaker B: So I'm Veronika, I'm CFO and managing director of a German Scale Up. We're called Everphone and we're doing device as a service. Um, this is AN Asset Heavy B2B recurring revenue model and I not only run the core finance department but Also data, legal and people and culture. Um, my background is in classic banking and corporate finance and I switched to the startup world in 2018 and was very, very lucky to find resources I could learn from because startup world was very alien to me and I had to learn and learn very fast. Um, you probably know that rule of thumb, one startup year is um, like seven corporate years, same as dog years. Um, and I found that to be very true. Um, the resources I lacked when I first became a, ah, startup CFO was something I wanted to build with a book I wrote. Unfortunately it's only available in German. It's called Finance Management in Startups and Scale Ups. Um, but I have to correct you. We have many CFOs as co authors. This is a community project and we have 13 chapters of which each um, a CFO or ah, financial expert contributed half of the work. And we have several parties who contributed um, a tiny piece of their knowledge in between. So that we split between 25 co authors and roughly the same numbers of peer reviewers. Because each of our chapters is peer reviewed so that you get the highest quality available on the market. Uh, that is not the knowledge only I could share, but the knowledge of the community.

Speaker A: That's fantastic, Veronica. I must admit, um, I did miss that small detail and it's a very good point. I think that piece where you're partly the author, partly curated this incredible group of kind of many experienced CFOs, probably hundreds of years of finance leadership experience among those people writing together. Uh, and that aspect of having peers review your work is so powerful and can lead to really important refinements and uh, a fantastic outcome. So, uh, well done on doing that. It'd be good just to uh, lead into the topic actually. Um, you've obviously done a number of funding rounds, equity and debt, and this is a core part to any finance leader in a growth stage business. But could just to hear why you've uh, picked that as the thing that we would talk about in depth.

Speaker B: Well, because that's one of the common themes that each startup and scale up needs from time to time, uh, funding. So being able as a CFO to support your founder or founders, um, in raising the equity needed is one of the things that seriously contribute to the value you're contributing to the company. And that is why I believe that CFOs need to understand how equity funding works and what their specific contribution can be. Typically I find that CEOs sell the vision of the company, might sell the team, might sell the future, but the CFO is the one that makes the round fundable and runs the process. So we would prepare the data room with all the documents potentially needed, liquidity plans, financial plans, business plans, um, contract overviews and all the like. Um, this would also mean that we would clean the database beforehand, that we would be in possession of all the contracts that would be potentially asked, that our employment contracts are, uh, reviewed and according to newest legal standards, that we have all the compliance certificates and qualifications of our suppliers. And only then from that database of very specific knowledge, very we could support the equity story, build the pitch deck and try to convince our investors. Typically convincing investors is something that founders are very apt at doing. What we need to do is support their pitch in a way that what the founder claims we can prove with numbers. And we can build a solid business case on the vision the founder has sold. Maybe also an interesting shift. We've always had, um, the information that investors look at a pitch deck only for, let's say, half of a minute or less before they decide if it's worth their time. Um, we see that AI readability is increasingly important. Many VCs now let an LLM M summarize the deck. So it has been very cleanly structured so that the LLM can grasp the importance and maybe also the fit to that specific VC instantly. Um, it comes also with preparing hard questions like investor FAQs that you should always have ready, especially the uncomfortable ones, the burn the competition mistakes the company might have made, um, so that you can support the founder and you don't have any contradiction in your numbers, what the founder claimed and what you will be asked in a due diligence situation. Also, it's often a task of CFO to run the process, which means to have the long list, to have the teaser deck ready at a specific time frame, thinking of summer holidays or of winter, pause to run the meetings, to check the term sheet, to do the due diligence and documentation, and then all the legal work that needs to be done until, um, there's a full documentation for the round. So also that organizational stuff is often done either by the CFO themselves or by a person in their department.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a really good point there because if you think about it, this is part of partnering, really. This is the CFO being a partner to the CEO and the partnering sort of quite multifaceted in this particular use case, because some of the stuff around, say the deck, the teaser deck, the full deck, how you build the story, uh, that's actually sort of like involving a Lot of the robust skills that a finance person has, but also a little bit of creativity and sort of understanding how to capture people's attention. Uh, and then there's quite a lot of like, fundamental, uh, organisational skills around timing, how many funds you need to talk to, getting the timetable right, then making sure that every single number that is, um, alluded to, mentioned in the deck, hinted at, is then later on substantiated as you get into due diligence. Uh, it really is quite a multifaceted test of the finance person.

Speaker B: It is, it is. And that's why it's so important that people openly share the information. What it needs in that phase, maybe also, um, strength in the back of those people who currently are in the process, I guess, uh, that is something that CFO communities often do. Just shouting out, giving support and letting the person believe that they're not alone in their struggles.

Speaker A: Yeah, that is true. Yeah, that is true. It's hard work and you don't want to feel, uh, isolated when you're going through those things and have a peer group just to bounce, bounce anything off in strictest confidence is really powerful and something that we certainly see and hear about a lot at startups here. I'm sure you have the same experience. Uh, fantastic. And in terms of some of the details that you get into as part of equity funding, I guess it's the term sheet that is often one of these areas where CEOs, if they're not super experienced or even CFOs can get kind of caught out. What lessons do you have for CFOs where they should really focus on aspects of the term sheets that they might be seeing.

Speaker B: I guess the most important to understand is that the term sheet is usually worded in a way that is non binding, but it carries a super high moral authority. So whatever is written in the term sheet is expected to be carried out at a later point and potentially the founding ground documents. So it's really worthwhile to understand the term sheet and maybe also if you're inexperienced in legal matters, to have a lawyer check it so that you know what you agree to, you don't have to deviate later and don't, um, burn any trust. Also, I would strongly recommend if you have the option of receiving several term sheets, to receive them, to work through them carefully, then do a comparison of the best option for your company, but don't decline immediately to those parties you haven't selected. It's not unheard of that while a term sheet was signed, the investor suddenly is no longer able to deploy the money they had originally promised. And then you'll be super happy to have a fallback second or even third option, um, which you can pursue in that case.

Speaker A: And how much should you lead on your legal counsel to be a part of making sure that the term sheet that you end up selecting to be the one that you're finalizing or perhaps negotiating points around. How key are your legal counsel in this?

Speaker B: Um, I have a slight advantage. I'm a trained lawyer myself so I can understand the key concepts. Still we're doing separation of duty which means that um, our general counsel is always involved in those matters and will do a legal check while I am rather doing the commercial check and moving

Speaker A: um, on to what people expect as outcomes for somebody who might be um, on their first venture backed business, maybe they've had a decade in corporate life. Uh, some of the market norms are uh, not easy to get your head around. Even just thinking about what, what kind of dilution you might see in a seed round or series A round. Like are there some rules of thumb that, that people really ought to know?

Speaker B: I guess there's a typical dilution per round which might be in pre seed 5 to 10% in seed, maybe 15 to 20, in series A 20 to 25 and later on series B plus 15 to 20%. But this also relies heavily on your business model, uh, on your performance if it's not the pre seed or receipt round and also on the market standard at that specific point in time where you're raising. If you're under pressure, if you urgently need the money, then obviously dilution will be higher than in a situation where you can work sustainable for another year and can take the money now or can wait for a bit. I feel that it's uh, always worthwhile if you can to exchange with founders, with other CFOs, maybe also with ventures which that specific investors has funded before to learn uh, what is typical at the moment, what is typical for this VC and optimize for your company and situation.

Speaker A: So that's something like for example a CFO might end up with relationships with some venture funds. They might form a friendship with the partners and just meet up for coffee every six or 12 months and just ask about market conditions, what, what the current norms are for certain types of rounds. And we know that uh, certain fashions and venture can change kind of relatively quickly. I mean we're sat here recording this in 2026, right? And right now AI businesses are really hot and seeing some really incredible valuations and I bet some of their term sheets look fundamentally different from a more traditional SaaS business a year or two ago. Yeah, yeah, fantastic. Um, so, um, with that very interesting sort of foundational discussion on um, equity funding, which I think for the higher risk businesses, the ones that are not yet maturing, is the prevalent, uh, form of capital because it is tolerant of risk. It'd be interesting just to dive into ah, um, the debt angle, how debt contrasts with equity, uh, and perhaps some of your experiences and your war stories in that area.

Speaker B: Um, I feel that it's a super important question you're asking because many founders and many CFOs neglect the option of also raising debt. Um, why is that important? Because that is intentional and it allows you to extend your Runway significantly if it's set up in a smart way. So equity buys you potential, buys you growth options buys you the future. But if you have a, uh, way to debt fund parts of your business that extends all the chances that you've got with equity. However, um, the most difficult part is negotiate the different approaches. In equity, investors carry an entrepreneurial risk, which means there's no repayment, no fixed interest. In return they get shares and expect outsized returns over let's say four to seven years VC horizon and maybe a three to five years PE horizon. So they're investing in the business model, in the team and in the vision. Whereas in debt funding, lenders want interest and repayments and that needs to be reliable. Even in volatile conditions, in crisis, if the portfolio doesn't perform, and this means the forecast they work off are much more conservative and only backward looking, there's no future expectation on growth, no nothing. They just want to reliable gain the interest. And the way you have to communicate your successes, the way you have to communicate your future plans, therefore significantly deviates according to which sides you are addressing.

Speaker A: That means that the CFO is really creating a slightly different story in order to go out there and raise debt. It's not just that these are uh, different types of providers who are looking for repayment ultimately. It's also the storytelling aspect of what the CFO is doing is different here.

Speaker B: I'd actually say it's not slightly different, it's fully different. Even if you're looking at our equity pitch deck, which is loud, which is visionary, which is telling the people what do we want to achieve in the world, and our debt pitch deck, which is giving them numbers on top of numbers with a one line text summary and then some numbers. Again, um, it's a totally different Pitch. It's also debt investors tend to ask very, very concisely, very difficult questions. And if you're coming only from equity fundraising, I would assume you need some training to understand what exactly those debt investors want to hear as an answer.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, I can see that it is a different discipline and uh, yeah, somebody needs to be very careful about how they think about kind of building a process to go and meet the right people. And on that point, like how, how can you assess who you might be a viable candidate for in terms of debt? Because quite a lot of say, uh, early finance hire, somebody might be head of finance in a series a business. One of the first jobs they might get off the founder is go and see the bank, see if they could do something for us in terms of debt or lending. Uh, and nearly always, um, that will lead to nothing because there aren't really debt products for businesses that might just be a couple of years old. Not typically, as you begin to move down the path to a, uh, little bit more maturity that there are certain products out there, it'd be great just to hear um, your perspective as to what kinds of business have access to what types of debt product.

Speaker B: I feel that the easiest to fund is actually the kind of business that I am in which are asset heavy. Why is that? Because we always have the asset as security and probably followed by those who have very reliable and stable income streams, such as in rental models, in leasing models, in SaaS models. Those are prone to receive um, financing that is based on their revenue, such as revenue financing or even venture debt, um, that can leverage very well today's expenses with future revenue and future profit that is coming out of that revenue. Um, this also warrants a certain history that proves reliable that those income streams will indeed arrive in time. I would assume the most difficult to bank fund is a company that has less than two or three years of history, that has not seen stable growth and that has changed the business model around as very many early stage startups do. Because then the bank will say you've proven for let's say six months that this works, please do come back when you've proven it for let's say 18 to 24 months. So if there's a way to create a data set that is, for example, showing one line of this business that you've ultimately pursued from the start to today's evolvement of operations, that is very helpful. If not, you have to create the database that the bank will use to build trust in your business model. There's one Thing I want to warn especially founders, against oftentimes bank will give you credit, but against a personal guarantee. And that's something I always advise founders not to do. Obviously if it's the last resort you're having, you might consider it. But I feel that founders take so many risks. They are ready to live with personal funds that are much less than if they had taken a corporate job and they shouldn't endanger their financial future just to get a bank loan.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a really good point. We see that over here in the UK market as well where um, some of the debt products offered will have a personal guarantee, uh, as something that the bank would consider to be non negotiable. And it seems to my mind to kind of pierce this fundamental point of having to operate through like a limited company where your liability, your ultimate downside is limited by the legal structure of the company. And the minute that you uh, feeling that you need to access a loan and there's a personal guarantee, you've pierced that veil and you're making your personal assets available in a downside scenario. Uh, and you're quite right, in a debt market which is functioning really efficiently, it shouldn't really be necessary to go and do that. It's a really big thing to do to have access to somebody's personal assets if things didn't really go to plan. Um, and then to just pick up on some of your points from earlier it seems from what you're saying is whilst there's a sort of debt toolkit out there that we'll talk about in a few minutes, uh, one of the first things that any CFO maybe new in a company should ask themselves is are there assets here, uh, that could help me to find a debt proposition? And that could be, for example, um, in your case you've got hardware in your business. Other businesses might have customers that sign a contract for three years and they're contractually required to uh, make payments over that time. That will be an asset of sorts. There might be some deep tech businesses that have IP that's really difficult to build, would take anybody tens of billions to uh, build in years that might have inherent value that the bank maybe would recognize. And so it feels that there's wider sort of conversation about do we have assets to um, secure the debt against is a great starting point.

Speaker B: It is indeed. Um, and that would be also something to consider very early on in your business model. Do you believe that with that model you would be able to achieve, let's say at least cash profitability very early on. So you can basically bootstrap and use extra fundraising to grow quicker or would you consistently need external funds and by which point could you stop raising more and more equity and transferring the external funds to debt, um, for a period of extended growth until which you can handle it from positive returns?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's something that I've heard a lot in the last five years where a substantial test of a CFO is often to go through the process to work out whether this business, which is probably growing and making substantial losses, whether it could be converted into a cash cow in three to six months and therefore you've got the cash generation to pay off some debt. And a bank will look quite positively on the fact that you could do that and you could evidence that you could do that. You probably hope you don't have to because much of the growth will go away in most cases. Um, but the fact that you could and um, it's certainly quite often the test of the capabilities of the finance person to really understand all the business levers and to model the business and to be prepared to go and do that if it was absolutely necessary. Um, it's a really important skill. We mentioned the general debt toolkit a bit earlier on. Uh, we should perhaps touch on some of the types of things that finance people in scale ups and startups will see. I think we've hinted at venture debt but maybe not gone into all the detail. It'd be good to just hear about the most common debt instruments that people will see in these situations.

Speaker B: I would say the convertible loan is the easiest and that's obviously something that is available to everyone who has a VC investor. It's a bridge between rounds and it can be done very fastly. No notary is needed and it defers the often tedious discussion around the valuation to the next round. Typical for convertible is a discount on the valuation of the next round, potentially with a cap and a floor. An interest rate that should be between, let's say 4 to maybe 8%, um, most favored nation clause. So no cherry picking on future investors and a qualified subordination to any other loans um, that might be in the company. Um, then let's say a very hybrid form that is usually occurring after a funding round is ventured up. Those venture deb providers often pitch that they are extending the round but they would have the requirement of significant equity being in the company so they can build their case. Um, the credit decision is typically based on a growth outlook of the company and the ability to reach the next Equity round because typically in those equity rounds venture debt might be repaid. And also um, venture debt providers would expect to get a kicker or a warrant in equity. Um I'd say probably around 5 to 10% of the loan amount. Um companies can settle that with new cash from around but typically it's more efficient to have that standing as a warrant until the actual exit. Venture debt can reach from let's say 2 to 25 million. Rule of thumb would be 50% of the last equity round and um, margins would probably be between 8 and 12% on top of your IBOR um term probably 36 to 60, maybe 72 months. And companies would typically also agree a certain period in which they pay interest only and no amortization. Um what is surprising to many CFOs and founders, ah term sheets can be very short. The contract package is huge. Um so reading that carefully or have a very good LLM to read it for you can be key to avoid clauses that will create a certain lock

Speaker A: in as of so many things in the CFO's office the devil's with the detail and all of those elements that will be in the long form agreement. That's kind of where um some of the more challenging things to think about in terms of are there covenants, what could happen in a worst case scenario, how much information are we sharing with them? Um, um all of those things are really key and they and they tend to be very specific in those long form debt agreements.

Speaker B: We also talked about revenue financing um which is based on the revenue of the company and then asset based financing and securitization is what I am doing for Everphone with uh our mobile phones and uh the cash flows derived from those serving as a security. Um typically you wouldn't have a loan on your company, on your startup company but on an spb, a special purpose vehicle that can be a subsidiary but can also be bank owned. And the reason why banks require this is that such a SPB is typically set up in a bankruptcy remote setup. Um you can do whatever you want and the bank agrees to in a securitization. So you can have matched fundings, um maturities mirroring your customer contracts. You can have a diversified investor base, um banks but also insurers, asset managers, debt funds. And this means it opens a way to institutional capital very early. What goes with it is a lot of complexity and it requires process maturity. There will be KYC data protection clauses, receivable lists, auditable processes, AUPs that the bank will impose on you. For many startups that means going the extra mile and setting up the processes from scratch in a way that is bank compliant. And oftentimes this also means hiring a person that has worked in a bank before and really understands what banks would require at this stage.

Speaker A: Yeah, that clearly is a whole different level where uh, uh, you probably need some kind of deeply specialized knowledge about how these types of facilities operate. But also the quantums are much larger and therefore it's likely to pay off to have that kind of expertise in the mix.

Speaker B: It really does. M and building a finance team that is able on the one hand to operationally deliver what is needed for both equity investors and debt investors and on the other hand negotiate with both sides in a way that profits the company is also part of the challenge CFOs in such business models that need both depth and equity might encounter.

Speaker A: It's truly uh, a whole different league. But if you can access that, that type of debt, particularly for a business reaching some nice scale, it can be completely transformative and obviously not being diluted and it's being used to fuel some of your growth, which is fantastic. That's exactly what you want, isn't it? Uh, brilliant. And I think we've done a really good tour de force of the key takeaways in terms of uh, debt and how this sits in the startup and high growth ecosystem. At the start we hinted at a big part of this being this partnership, this CEO CFO partnership and how they can collaborate in terms of equity, how the CFO might lead a debt round because it's mainly about the detail. Um, what additional advice would you have for finance leaders about that important CEO CFO relationship?

Speaker B: It's key. It will be key to all your successes in the company and it will also be one of the parts where you can get enormous recognition and experiencing joy in your work or experiencing extreme frustration. I believe CFOs and CEOs or founders have to work extremely closely. Um, much closer than it's common in German companies. Not sure about UK finance shouldn't be understood as a break. Ah, but rather as a sparing partner and as an enabler of all the decisions the founder or CEO wants to be taking. Um, it also means good sparing is talking honestly and talking straight with solution, not just clapping your hands and supporting uncritically everything that the CEO suggests. Um, we CFOs need to be direct when the economic reality doesn't match the growth story or the aspirations. And we need to be able to correct wrong founder decisions very fast instead of letting the company suffer the effects for a very long time. The basis of such a fruitful relationship, in my view, is trust, and that is built on reliability. Um, the CEO needs to know and understand in their heart that you're supporting them to the best of the company. Which would also mean that you might have hard decisions and discuss things that are their wish for the company and their vision, but at this point in time, unfortunately not feasible. Because having that connection and having that agreement, the one thing speak and the other one is able to cut it down to a realistic and reachable target, um, that is fruitful to the company, that is fruitful to finding fulfillment in your work and in the end, um, to the growth.

Speaker A: I do completely agree, Veronica. There's something so important about this. I think sometimes finance people, there's a disservice from what happens as employees come up the ranks and become a senior person in that their first interaction with finance is maybe submitting expense claims. And like having finance, they know because there was a receipt missing or they missed something in the policy, and they accidentally think that finance is the office of saying no, when actually, uh, at the top of the pyramid. It's really all about sparring. It's all about debating opportunities like thrashing out strategies, working out how you can do things that, uh, are exciting and drive growth and are risky, but that being a measured risk. And I think so often people, uh, that don't work in finance completely undervalue this, this important partnership. And the bit where the CEO is respected for being the visionary, the one that makes this happen at all, but the CFO is almost equally respected for being the partner that will not always agree with that person.

Speaker B: I believe it's important to understand that a solid personal relationship is a foundation on which a factual discussion where you're on opposite sides is no problem to that relationship, no problem to the trust you build and not a, uh, pre decision on any outcome that decision might point towards. So I would say try to build trust between CEO, cfo, other C levels before you come into that terrain where you have to make difficult decisions together. And especially as a cfo, especially as a one who oftentimes has to say no for the good of the company. Try to support your colleagues as much as you possibly can because they will know from their previous careers, CFOs as naysayers, CFOs who have made their life difficult. And what also helps is always giving the rationale why you are doing this and why there's a limit and in which way they can Support you in working around that limit. Never say no, but say no under, uh, those circumstances. There is an option of doing that in this and that way at this and that point in time or in any other setup than you suggest to me today. And so you're giving them an option to work with you and to evolve. And that would be something that is strengthening the relationship, even though, factually, you've just told them no.

Speaker A: Yeah, I can see that. It's about the framing effect of how that conversation pans out. All of the options are explored, even though ultimately it might be that you decide that that path isn't viable. And, uh, this definitely shows up in things like fundraising processes. And this piece around fundraising is a team sport. And that CEO CFO team interaction is really, really important. Uh, this is a great topic. I'm really enjoying us talking about this, Veronica. But we should, uh, perhaps wrap up the pod and maybe just pick three key takeaways that, uh, might be really important for people who are maybe like, a bit earlier on their finance career and looking to take on some of these responsibilities that we've been talking about. Uh, be great to hear your top three takeaways.

Speaker B: Let's focus those on fundraising as it is the topic we've talked about earlier. Um, I'd say first, start fundraising before you have to, regardless of depth or equity, Maintain a data room, have a good Reporting setup, plan 6 to 9 months of lead time. Raising on an empty account means pressure and negotiating from weakness, and you want to avoid that. Second, think depth from day one. It's as important as equity. It doesn't dilute and it's a strength to raise, um, and a strength signal for future equity investors, um, that you should really consider if you have an asset base and a company set up, um, that is bankable. And third, try to find ways to negotiate as equals. Create alternatives, get several offers, um, create an understanding of what the market currently can offer you and own your financial model. Uh, don't get scared when difficult questions occur in such you're building up the strength to really negotiate the best options for your company. And that's worth it in the end.

Speaker A: Yeah, they are, ah, important lessons and, uh, really good points for us to wrap up on. And before I let you go, Veronika, um, very quickly, uh, remind us of the title of your book for people who might be German speakers and want to look it up.

Speaker B: Um, people might contact me on LinkedIn. I'm sure you can link my account in the show notes because my last name is very very long. I genuinely answer myself. Not first date, but I do answer. And if you're understanding some written German, um, you can always try and read the book. We're trying to get an English translation but it's not yet contractually agreed.

Speaker A: I'm sure you will get there. Uh, and once you have that done, because unfortunately I'm also not a German speaker or, or reader. Um, I would love to receive a copy. It sounds like a fantastic endeavor. Uh, and really well done doing that. I know this is a, a huge project and uh, one that's brought you fantastic satisfaction. Veronica, thank you very much for being on the podcast. This has been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate you spending your time taking us through this important topic.

Speaker B: Thanks a million for having me and see you soon.

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