Everything is Fintech Live: Nubank's Head of B2B, Senior Director, Nathan Marion

Speaker A: If you go to a checkout in Brazil of any merchant, you will find cards. Cards is pretty much distributed by, you know, any merchant accept cards, it will also accept pigs. And then you probably have, you might have Google pay, you might have Apple pay, you probably have then new pay. Pigs is a very important payment method in Brazil. Instant payment method. It's become one of the most popular one.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome to Everything Is Fintech. Today I am joined by Nathan Marion, head of B2B at Nubank. Nathan, how are you doing?

Speaker A: I'm doing great. Thanks for inviting me.

Speaker B: M. Thank you for joining us. Uh, Nathan, you know you're at probably one of the biggest fintechs in the world right now. You know, when, when I think of Nubank myself having spent so many years writing about fintech, it's one of those kind of OG fintechs that really kind of took the fintech vision and made it a reality. Uh, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but today I think you guys are in serving close to 100 million users. You're in 122, 120M million users. You're public. Uh, I think you're the most public, the most, the highest valued public digital bank in the world, at least outside of China. Um, and then uh, recently of course there was a big news. You're, you're applied to for a bank charter in the US So there's so much going on. How is the, how's everything at Nubank? What's been going on?

Speaker A: I think it's, uh, for me it's an honor to be working at Nubank. I think as a Brazilian,

Speaker B: we, um,

Speaker A: admire the company that much. Like a Brazilian company that really make a difference, made a difference in Brazil, but it's also doing it outside of Brazil. So I think we're all kind of very proud of it and pride of doing this. Uh, but I think the whole story is, yeah, we, we would like to do what we did in Brazil. In Brazil we have around 100 million, uh, clients a little bit over that. That's 60% of the added population of Brazil. And that's, that's a lot. Um, and there we can really make a change. And we're doing this in Mexico, this in Colombia and eventually elsewhere. Right. And we'll try to, to grow and, and really think the thing about the mission of Nubank is really to fight complexities, really to, you know, give accessibility of uh, financial services to broad populations. Be simple. Right. Um, and doing that in Brazil, it's been successful so Far there's so much to be to be done there yet. Uh, but do this elsewhere as well is something that excises a lot, I bet.

Speaker B: I mean some of those numbers are actually staggering. Over 100 million users in Brazil. Um, 60% of the population is cardamom. Incredible stat. Um, I know that you know a lot of people I think nowadays a lot of people who are in fintech at the very least know Nubank and beyond that too. And I think most people that know Nubank know you guys for the work you've done on the consumer side. Right. Um, that the consumer credit you've got like I said, hundreds over 100 million users. But you're actually working in a, a different part of the business now. You're actually ahead of B2B for NewPay and marketplaces.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Tell us a little bit about what NewPay is and what you do there specifically and how that fits into the, what Nubank has been doing today.

Speaker A: That's, that's a very good question. Um, the thing about Nubank is, is what you just said, um, it grew really fast on those 100 million plus clients by you know, being that first digital bank, ah, platform where you could apply on your app. You don't need to go to a, you know, branch, physical branch to do it. And then it gave access to credit cards or to credit to people that have never had it. Um, so any grew a lot but eventually became one of the largest issuers of Brazil. Right? One of the largest banks of Brazil. Um, and essentially also opened an opportunity for us. Right? Opportunity because we have 100 million clients. So a great channel of distribution. But also we are in the hands of a lot of people. So if you look at the majority of the merchants, we are a great part of their checkout, right? A great part of this checkout because they're paying with a new bank card. So that invitation of heading up this B2B area is not that we're going to banking for enterprises. No, it's not. But we're building this portfolio of products that uh, make sense for uh, big companies with large companies to partner with Nubank. Right. One is that big arm of distribution which I think is a good example is marketplace. If we have a marketplace and we're selling goods form from other brands, we can channel them to our base not by offering only, but by using our data to offer in the right moment, but also offer with additional credit. Right. What we do well, it's not only being that channel but how we can benefit, generate Benefit, true benefit to our users. But payments is a great opportunity because we know our clients, we know a lot of them try to pay online. You know the issues of paying online, eventually there's perception of fraud, uh, you know, transactions decline and they have enough credit, which is big, big challenge of Brazil. Um, with NewBay we're giving credit to users. We're also a checkout button, um, in the, in the checkout of merchants. Right. So we are payment method itself and we process in our own Rails, meaning it's, it's a closed loop. Right. So we have control on this, we take our fraud out of the equation and essentially um, we can really offer a better experience to customers when they're paying. So the new bank style kind of experience, um, but also we can really help merchants to sell more, increase their conversion, lower their you, uh, know, chargeback rates, um, and really uh, impact your businesses. Uh, so in terms of, let's start

Speaker B: with I guess the merchant piece for a second just so I can understand it a little bit more. So you know, when I go on a typical e commerce website, say in the US or in Europe, right out and I'm paying for a good or a product and at the checkout I'll have a different set of check options. I can put my credit card details in. I might be able to do Apple pay, maybe I might do a plan to pay in some of the. Is the new pay then going to be that button? Pay button.

Speaker A: That's exactly it.

Speaker B: And so for merchants, the upside of that is in theory, anyone who's paying with that new pay button is a new pay customer already on the tumor branch. Because you new bank customers are on this side. So really it's a lot more seamless that that customer has already pretty much been validated in terms of uh, you've done the checks.

Speaker A: There's no onboarding.

Speaker B: There is no onboarding. And then I guess the bit that's super interesting is this additional credit piece that you mentioned. Right. So typically again as we mentioned, nubank, actually uh, one of the things that's super interesting about nubank relative to all the Neobanks around the world is you guys started out with credit, right? Like everyone else, a lot of digital banks started out with prepaid cards. You guys started out offering credit. So credit has been a big part of your operations. Now NewPay allows you to increase that credit level that you're able to offer consumers.

Speaker A: Exactly. And I think this is one of the pillars of moonpay for sure. And there's the um, BNPL piece of it.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Uh, if you go to a checkout in Brazil of any merchant, you will find cards. Cards is pretty much distributed by any merchant except cards. It will also accept pics. Pics is a very important payment method in Brazil. Instant payment method. And it's become one of the most popular one, um, if not really surpassing cards in some kind of perspectives. Um, and then you probably have, you might have Google pay, might have Apple pay, you probably have then new pay and we're kind of achieving that. Distribution is part of my job. I take care of that, go to market, I have commercial strategy. Um, but that being said, uh, when you think about having new pay there, so there's no onboarding, so that's different. Another thing about Brazil which is relevant to know is is you already have the BNPL concept since 30 years ago. Um, which is you can pay in installments with cards, right? So you can type in your card and you can pay three, four, five, six times. So the very concept of BNPL exists for a while in Brazil, but you need to have credit for that, right? And that credit is approved on the moment you apply for a credit card. Right. So you use that credit capacity to pay installments and then you pay statements in 1, 2, uh, 3x, you know up to 12, um, on new pay we can use the credit that we gave already to that new bank customer. But when they're checking out they can, they can use their account balance to pay for the transaction. They can use uh, their credit available or they can actually tap into ah, a new credit um and that new credit is given at that time for that transaction because we have additional data for that. But also that you can do extended installments. So uh, standard installments range in Brazil it's like 1 to 12x. For new pay we can get up to 36. So you can pay a good in 36 times. Right. Um three years and eventually there is interest also be added to there. Of course there are additional risk for us, but we interest. There is better economics for us to provide additional credit so we would be able to sell to people online that wouldn't have credit otherwise. This is a huge advantage for customers but also huge advantage for merchants because they sell when they would lose that sale. Right? And if you think about E commerce, you have that all that funnel right acquisition and gets to the moment of truth which is the checkout. And if the checkout, uh, you know the user doesn't have enough credit, you cannot really um, do the sale. Right? I mean the purchase itself. So I think this is great. This is a, this is one of the main pillars of NewPay, just offering additional credit for the transaction itself.

Speaker B: I mean, as you're kind of explaining that, you know, there's so much that's interesting in what you've said, and I don't know if I've understood all of it correctly, but I guess the merchant side makes sense. Uh, in theory, by having new pay, you're, uh, you, you're kind of taking the risk for the credit side of it a bit more.

Speaker A: We would.

Speaker B: So then you, you're allowing merchants to basically sell more. And so obviously that makes sense as to why they would want to incorporate that in terms of, into their checkout page. Um, and then is it actually like, am I understanding. Maybe I'm understanding this wrongly, but it sounds like actually the added credit you add when it's through new pay is more a BNPL form which is specific to a specific transaction or good. And so that gives you a kind of really interesting set of data, uh, on what people are buying and I guess even just like rates and, and, and, and, and behaviors as a. Because it's based on specific transactions with credit in general, it's, you know, you get a, uh, $2,000 credit limit. It doesn't matter what you spend it on. You can use $2,000. Whereas with this it's, oh, uh, you've got a $2,000 thing for the sofa. You're trying to buy the sofa.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's only. And if you try to buy again elsewhere, you will probably or potentially not have the same credit.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So this is not again a blank check where you can just sign and use whatever you want is for that transaction. And the reason we can give it is just because we know that customer, we know where they're buying eventually. And if the merchant allow us, we know what they're buying. Right. And we also incentivize a merchant to let us know because we can also incentivize that purchase. So that's this data kind of sharing, um, kind of experience that enhances experience of purchase itself, uh, but is only for that transaction and of course, and we offer extended installments as well. So it might, they might have the credit, but they want to pay in, um, very long installments just for it to fit the monthly installment. Right. Kind of their budget for the month itself. That is very common that you can sell more because you can extend more. But there's the two benefits. The third benefit, I think it's very important is because we're authenticating that transaction. There's no chart which, whereas if they had credit and would pay with card, it's always the risk. So transaction will not be declined because card is invalid or because you know, issuer perceived. Uh, some kind of. Yeah, some kind of risk. So there's, there's a lot of benefits compared to the card itself, but also compared to Pix, if they have the account balance, um, they would be able to do installments and they would be able to pay uh, without having to read a QR code. I mean it's just simple. Click on new Banker, redirect to the app and you approve it. Right. So the process itself is very simple. Let me give you an example. On uh, we work with Uber for example, right. Um, big player, massive in Brazil, massive worldwide, well known Uber has this kind of checkout which is, is kind of what we call. You don't even see the jack. You know, you go once and next time you just enter the car and leave the car.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So how, how new pay would work on, on, on uh, customer like that. We have that tokenization feature which is not that common on bnpl. Right. BNPL is only to give you extra credit. You can tokenize and authorize Uber to take money off your account or credit. Um, uh, so it's like a bank on file. Like card on file. Yeah, more like a bank on fire. The beauty of it is you enter the car you had. So you asked for a ride for example, and the ride will cost you 30 hacks. Right? 30. $30. To make it simple here, um, uh, the Brazilian currencies hat, um, but you only have 20 so it would be declined on the card. Yeah but we knew pay we could give you the extra 10 just for you to be able to get that. That's better for Uber. It's better for the experience itself. And we know there's no decision, there's no selecting. But if you're already kind of selecting the tokenized Manu pay, we could offer that additional credit. Right. And this is a very good experience too. Or example to prove the value of the experience itself for the user that would not be able to get the cab or something like that if they weren't paying with new pay, only with the cards of Nubank. Right. Even it's someone else's card.

Speaker B: That's, I mean, I mean that's fascinating and I guess it's one of those things where it you, you know, as you're kind of explaining it, it makes a lot of sense as to why a natural one one, one that not. And even for a consumer, right. There are so many instances in consumers lives where access to capital and credit isn't there for a variety of reasons. And then that reduces and moves people out of being able to engage in products, services. So this is a way to enable people to kind of access all of these kind of services. I guess one question is, is there any risk to this? What's like, you know, what could go wrong in circumstances like this?

Speaker A: I think giving credit. Right. That's the main risk on the sense that um, if you look at the history of Nubank, Nubank grew by giving credit to people that didn't have access to it because it was a market that a small part of population had a credit card or, or credit itself and it was building up, it was building data, was giving a little bit proven themselves but also giving the possibility of doing that. Right. Um, so if you look at our credit capacity uh, of also giving credit to users, it is already stressed. It's not that we're kind of limiting and we can give a little bit more credit here. So there's the risk is increasing as we give more credit on top of the credit we already gave. Right. Um, and this is I think only doable by nubank because nubank has a lot of experience on that and it's fine tuning so that we, the same model we put you uh, know, two, three years ago when we launched New Page, the same model we're using it, we're kind of evolving it, learning out of the data that we collect. And I think this is where we need to be very careful. Um, also um, we're also careful with the customer experience in the sense that we want to be responsible on that credit. We don't want to put them on adapt.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And just because, because if they cannot pay that that would be a potential delinquency or default for us as well. So we need to structure this in a way to help our users to fulfill their dreams eventually. Eventually it's just an Uber car, right? I mean yeah, that small luxury of the day. Um, but it could be the case um, that, that we also kind of helping the merchants to, to achieve better. I mean optimize their kind of their flow, their funnel their checkout to approve more transactions, give just better experience to their, their customers.

Speaker B: And uh, I know we've talked about you know, big companies like Uber and sometimes you know, when you talk about E commerce often that the mind goes to big companies. But is this, you know, new Pay is that payment, uh, um, option. Is that available for small merchants too for SMEs for. And is it only for digital transactions? Or could a new bank customer who is you know, making a physical transaction, could they add that checkout to use new pay?

Speaker A: Yeah. So um, first, first question. Is it available for offline transactions? Currently no. Just for digital, uh, uh, transactions. So you will find new pay in the checkout of a merchant. Uh, but if you go to point of sale, you cannot pay with new pay to use any card or pics. At Nubank, um, SMEs currently our go to market strategy is where is merchants with large volumes? The reason for that is just because it's worth the effort of integrating. Right. I mean for small merchants it's hard. So there's strategy distribution usually use a platform, something that's more plug and play. I think we'll go in that direction. This initial step is really getting that um, distribution throughout big, big merchants and merchants that own a majority of transactions. But our plan is to, is to distribute to SMEs as well.

Speaker B: So is like the way, is the way you choose your current kind of merchants you roll this out to based on who your 100 million plus users in Brazil are uh, doing most of their spending with.

Speaker A: That's it.

Speaker B: So I mean it's a pretty good way to do it for customers too, right? It's like very directly addressing where their money is going.

Speaker A: And I think that's a very important difference from what you currently see on bnpl. Because BNPL go to a checkout of a merchant to acquire users. Their final go is acquisition. So it's a different kind of negotiation. The merchant, the merchant provides a very nice real estate which is your checkout for, you know, a third party to give credit also will give additional sales. Uh, but also they are acquiring customers at that point. We're not.

Speaker B: These are your customers. Right.

Speaker A: So there's two things very important. So as a new bank user you don't need to enable new pay, you just pay with new bank. Right. Um, and, and second, if you, if you're not a new bank user, there's no flow on new pay for you to become one. So you need to apply for an account and then to be able to. So, so we're not using to pay to, to customer acquisition. Um, just because we already have 60% of added population. That's not a goal. The goal is really to offer a better or the best payment experience for new bank users and also an amazing experience for merchants that they can sell more and, and pay less.

Speaker B: I mean instead of a. It's not a customer acquisition. If anything it's more much an acquisition.

Speaker A: It is when you think about B2B and what I do is essentially I have a sales, a commercial team that is talking to merchants.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Negotiating, uh, with them. Of course we charge an MDR or that that will probably be less than what they pay, um, on cards plus you know, you know, chargebacks and stuff like the cost that they have. But that being said, um, then we distribute, of course we prioritize where our consumers are buying more from because we know that you.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, and we then enable the option of NewPay on those merchants.

Speaker B: And so NewPay has been live for, I think you said, uh, or at least you announced it a couple of years ago.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's two to three years. I have this exact day, but it's two, three years.

Speaker B: I mean, how has the uptake been since, you know, since you launched it? You kind of. I don't know if you can share any numbers that you have, you're able to share. But how has the uptake being. Is the first kind of question. And a little follow up to that is have you seen any, um, I know we said it's not a customer acquisition strategy at all, but have you actually seen that it hasn't driven customer acquisition? Are there people who are actually trying to convert because somehow they've seen the kind of seamless experience of the new pay checkout button?

Speaker A: It's hard to say, uh, to answer that second one because it's hard also to connect all the dots to say it was because NewPay. But I think at Zubank we're launching a bunch of products and initiatives to help out users and just to make their financial decisions easy to do and when they're paying for something easy to be done. So I think this reflects to why they want to become, uh, clients or apply for an account. Uh, that being said, um, what was the other question? Remember?

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, so I think my second question was about the customer acquisition. And what was my first question? What did I ask you? It was uh, just any kind of update or just like how the uptake has been since you launched.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a very good one. Um, I don't have our own data, but there's a researcher in Brazil called Gematos, uh, recently released a data that we liked a lot because they were. And it's not a date of new base data of bnpl. So they seen a big rise of BNPL and what do they do? Um, they have some kind of crawler, um, that looks into checkouts. Right. And see what are the options. You know, 100% accept, uh, credit card maybe now it's getting big to 100% as well. The BNPL which was a small portion few years ago, it's now I think more than 60% of all E commerce websites. And they attributing this to few players, including Upay as one of the ones that's driving the majority. And I agree with that because I see a lot of those checkouts that have credit cards and new pay credit cards, but a lot of those big brands were growing and I think acceptance both from merchants and customers are amazing because it's just improving their lives.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, so um, we're very excited about the community becoming months and years.

Speaker B: Yeah, that uptake is incredible too. And you mentioned Pix, which has probably been truly one of the most significant kind of um, infrastructure builds and financial services anywhere in the world for a really long time. The kind of uptake of Pix has been remarkable. I think you're seeing, I don't even know the numbers right now, but a huge number of Brazilians are using it. The amount of transactions m on it is significant. How does, I mean, how does Pix relate to any of the stuff that you are building with new pay? Um, is there any relationship with these two?

Speaker A: I think there is, um, I think they're partially very direct and partially more structural. And the reason I'm saying structural is because Pixis also a reflect of a regulator that is very pro innovation, pro competition. And the launch of Pixel is also very important to nubank because the bank understood it and say, hey now, you know, people can transfer money 24, you know, uh, seven to you know, your tax ID number or email, which it's very simple. And then with a QR code you can pay um, and that added a lot of people to the financial system also through a new bank that was very easy to do it. Right. So that is the first connection, which is not direct connection. Second is um, Pix is part of a settlement, kind of structured, created by central banks. So it makes it easier for people to send money around but also for you know, payment institutions to pay out their, you know, they're merchants. So there this is being generated a lot of efficiency and the system itself a lot of speed, um, and lower costs in general. Um, so when we think about uh, nubank because of Biggs, we acquire a lot of users. There's a Lot of easiness. Not only Biggs, but also Open Finance generated a lot of possibilities for Nubank. If you look at the number of contents of the central bank, New bank leads by far. So there's, you can bring data from other banks, you can bring data from other wallets. Right. You can play around and all of this plays together on this additional credit piece, on this efficiency market. New pay kind of adds on top of that because even with pics, um, I think new pay is just improving that payment process. Right. So if you look, if you look at example of Uber or subscription itself, which is a challenge for Pix at the moment, um, you know, Newbay kind of is the best of borrowers. You're going to have access to extra credit, but you can also put your bank on file and take money out of your account almost like instantly. So Rails, we play with different Rails, but we kind of packaged everything in a single payment method. You can have access to credit, extra credit or access to the bank account with very uh, fast settlement and on a, um, constant base, on a recurring base itself.

Speaker B: So yeah, Pix has been such, this kind of centerpiece of this kind of rapid innovation in financial services in Brazil, but in that time and Open Finance too, right? And now marketplaces, Embedded finance, um, even with what we're seeing with some of the kind of activity in stablecoins and digital assets, um, there seems to be just like a huge wave of uh, innovation and transformation in natam too in Poland's and financial services. What do you think over the next five to ten years the kind of biggest structural changes will be in that space in Latam. Uh, and how are you kind of thinking about that?

Speaker A: Yeah, um, I'll give a little bit of my personal view. Um, I think credit is still a challenge in Latin America, not only Brazil. And I think many of those technologies would just ease the process of just getting more data and accessibility to people. Um, so I think credit will be a big part of it. And I think just data being like we usually say, um, so there's, there's companies own data, right? But you should own your data and sell it. And then your data being the way you have access to it, right. You should own it, not others. Right. So I think there's this shift happening and I think I've heard even Roberto Composite, which is a former president of Central bank and now. So, uh, he usually says that, um, but, but also I think when we think about stablecoins, we're thinking about maybe um, updating Rails as well, right? Uh, not only for people sending money to each other, but paying. So I think there's huge opportunity there as well. Um, and I think that will also remove a lot of the boundaries that we have not only within a country but in the region itself.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: We have a lot of this different but I think this will be step by step. So for example pics, it influenced a lot the region. Now you have in Colombia, Breb, uh, which is something very similar to Bix. Right. Um, so I think this is happening, um, hard to see where it's going. But what I can foresee is just more access to financial services. Cheapest, simplest, a simpler way um, of doing it. So I think that's where I see it going and I do see Latin America because there's a lot of struggles, there are a lot of challenges as being one of those places that really build solutions that if it works there, it will definitely work elsewhere.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I love that. I think that's such, actually such an important point and probably kind of a reflection of why Brazil increasingly is taking like a really like you know, more and more of uh, a leading role around the world too in terms of innovation and financial services. Right. Like because Brazil, Brazil obviously incredibly huge um, economy, really big country. But it's also got uh, you know, high or had very high levels of financial exclusion which you know was what NewBank you guys really were able to really address so well. So I think that that's starting to really become a kind of model for the rest of uh, the world with lots of countries around the world to adopt. Right. And um, I see everywhere I go I hear lots of excitement and conversation about pics.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So which kind of tells you that's true impact for the stream.

Speaker A: And I think pix is a good example of what you just mentioned which is maybe in some other countries it's something similar. The central bank had to push it I think created a whole kind of structure and everything. And maybe there's in other countries. Yeah. Okay alternatives and having okay alternatives. It prevents you to having real renovations sometimes. Right. Um, we had in my opinion for peer to peer transfer which is one of the things that, that BRICS tackled. A very poor solution back, back in the day was expensive. You only have like few time as restricted time of the day for to transfer money. That was really complex. That's only one aspect of pics. Right. So creating infrastructure to address that. It's really interesting. Which also comes back to you know there's a lot of conversations of CBDC for example Right. So there's a lot of countries that are addressing that to solve this real time now we already solved with pigs, we don't need that. Right. I mean that's so it needs to solve other problems. So that's the same kind of. And because we do have those challenges, I think it pushed you uh, know companies, you push capital, you push regulators, uh, in the right moment to really drive innovation, drive change. Uh and we saw already, so this is not really how uh, we foresee that, that we're going to have. This already happened actually. Right. If you look at bankerization in Brazil, it grew a lot just because of all those innovations. Um, so I think and it requires more than just also a great startup with a great id, it requires regulators, it cries really the country itself to push and also you know that, that the visionaries really to push the boundaries a little bit more for you to create great ah, solutions. So I think that's a little bit of story of new bank as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's such an important point. You know, I think recently uh, I know a couple of years ago in the U.S. fedNow was launched. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you can kind of just obviously not to. There's a lot of point around Fed now but and I remember when I was launched it was like so many different types of criticism that come in and I think with pics. One of the interesting things is every time I've spoken to people, you know yourself from Nubank, I've spoken to someone from Revolut Brazil, talked to different members of that kind of ecosystem in Brazil and everyone's very positive about it. And a lot of it feels very collaborative. It feels like the central bank but also some of the key players were building this together. So it kind of creates that ability as a collective to kind of drive innovation forward. And I think the other point is like good enough I think tends to be a real barrier to innovation. If something is good enough, it's like the incentive to improve. It is not, is not there. But then you know, you don't want to kind of throw it away either so you get stuck.

Speaker A: True.

Speaker B: Um, one final question for you Nathan. I know we're running out ah, of time and I know our uh, team over there are giving me the eyes and I get out of here. But I do have one question for you. You know, so you know I asked you the big question about the future of Latam. I want to ask you a more specific question. Right. So New pay has been around for three years. We're in 2026. So let's say we have this conversation five years, right? Hopefully you probably have had a bit of rest. Not just, uh, you know, I'm not licking you do a podcast straight off the plane. But in 2030, you know, we're having this conversation. What is it that's going to make you say with respect to new, New pay? Wow, we really cracked that problem. What would NewPay look like for you to say that?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think there are many things on my mind, but what I would say is really tied to New Bank's, uh, vision and mission, which is just easing people's lives. Um, so if you think about NewPay by itself, if we really achieve that, you know, to be distributed throughout digital could be at some point offline and really have the impact of on people's lives, on having access to just paying it easily with two or three clicks, authenticating, taking off, fraud, uh, having access to credit, being able to do it seamlessly, smoothly. Uh, that's success for me. Um, also from a B2B perspective itself, that we generate true value to merchants. Um, because this is new also to the bank.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: We're not, um, and by doing this for those two pillars, I think you generate this virtuous will, um, that eventually we just grow, grow, grow. So I think if we can do that successfully and we're very focused on having quality in our products.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: If we're saying that we're giving credit, credit for saying that's better payment, uh, experience, we mean it. Right? We really mean it. Uh, so that's, that's, that's success for me.

Speaker B: I love that. I'm, um, surprised you didn't mention maybe a, ah, bioclasses in the U.S. given, given the recent news. Nathan, that's been such, it's been a great conversation. I've really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you so much.

Speaker A: Likewise.

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for joining us.

Speaker A: Thanks. Thanks Mickey for the invitation again and was pleasure to speak with you.

Speaker B: Thank you. And uh, to our listeners, thank you so much for joining us today. Uh, we'll be back very soon again with another awesome episode of Everything is fintech. Thank you.