Everything is Fintech Live: With Olugbenga Agboola (Flutterwave) & Benjamin Fernandes (NALA)

Speaker A: Today, I employ 70 people in the UK. Okay. So I was coming there as the boss of all these people, basically illegally working on a tourist visa. And. Okay, I'm going into. Try, uh, renting. Nobody's giving you rent.

Speaker B: Oh.

Speaker A: Pay a year up front, okay? Because you don't have. Where are you going to get a year up front of rent money?

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Try setting up an office. And you have no authorization as the director of the entity to be in the uk. How are you going to set up an office? I'm, like, trying to convince some local person in England, hey, can you be a director of my company? They can run away and do something massively malicious to the business. And what other choice do you have as a migrant to the country?

Speaker B: Welcome to Everything Is fintech. I am your host, Mickey Tesfaye. And today I'm joined by two African fintech giant CEOs. We have GB, CEO, uh, founder, uh, co founder of, uh, Flutterwave. And then I've got my friend.

Speaker A: Just his friend.

Speaker C: So am I your friend, Mickey, I.

Speaker B: I would like to say you're my friend. My friends are watching. So you guys all heard that, right? GB and I are friends, and whenever flutter wave IPOs, I'm going to get some preferential shares. Yeah, that's the main thing he said.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's contractual.

Speaker B: Sure. There we go. We got that under record. Sure. And then we've got our friend, founder, uh, and CEO of NALA Money. Gentlemen, how are you doing?

Speaker A: Good, man. I'm only disappointed because he didn't bring us any food, so. Yeah, bro, I got to, you know, mix it up next time.

Speaker B: I'm just trying to keep you on your toes, man. You're always. You're always on the food thing. How are you doing, gb?

Speaker C: I'm all right. Um, great to be here again every year. Um, you know, seeing you twice a year at least.

Speaker B: I know it sounds a little bit painful when you say it like that.

Speaker C: Yeah, pretty good.

Speaker B: Um, tell us a little for everyone. So, you know, Flutterwave, you guys are a huge, huge fintech. You guys are not just a fintech, that's an incredible power in the global economy now. But also you're. You're defining what it means to be a fintech in Africa. But just so that everyone can have a bit of context, tell us a little bit about what you do at, uh, Flutterwave, a bit of the origin story.

Speaker C: Uh, so, quick background. Um, I started my career as an engineer in paper a bunch of years ago, almost 20 years now, which is crazy. If you think about it, um, working PayPal in London um, as an engineer for a while. After PayPal I joined a bunch of banks across Africa. Standard Bank GT Bank, Access Bank, Sterling bank in various roles in engineering, products, technology and whatnot. And afterwards started a company that was building payments um solutions like Square for Africa that got acquired and then um, started following in 2016. The goal, the driving force behind Flutter was really when I saw a bunch of um, clients in my banking experience where there was a big multinational right that was expanding to Nigeria from South Africa. That was in 2009 I think. And that company was trying to basically pay their salaries in Nigeria from South Africa. And as a bank then we had the banking license in Nigeria and South Africa but we couldn't still help them pay their staffing Nigeria. And that wasn't because we didn't have the infrastructure. We had the infrastructure, we had the license. But the way money flows across borders is just not the same domestically. Right. So we couldn't help them. We had to literally hand off to another bank in another country to head and do that payment. Because each even though we're a network of banks and we're one company, but we're really a network of different banking licenses. Right. And that was when I saw the gap for there is an opportunity for a non bank player who can complement banks, right. To solve that problem. Making money move quickly, building fluid across the banks. That is one of the defining moments for Africa needs a flutterwave. Africa needs for the wave. Literally that was how the idea started. I didn't do it immediately afterwards do something else bank but came back to that same problem when I just saw the, you know the fact that money moving across Africa is still very interesting. You move money from M, you're paying somebody in Ghana, you're buying let's say a great phone case for example from some from an entrepreneur in Ghana that is a person to business transaction. But it's this guy as a wire transfer because there's no way to do person to business payments across Africa, right? So that's if I, if I was in Nigeria making buying that phone case, I will send money from Nigeria, I want to go from Lagos to New York, New York to Accra to go from. I'll go from Naira to dollar dollar to cities to correspondent banks in between three days later, uh, three bank fees paid later and then that money gets there and now payment is about trust, right? That supplier in Ghana will not send me that good until they get paid. So they're too risky if they get paid. They don't send me what I'm buying. That's a problem. And if they send it to me, I don't pay them as well. It's a problem. So there needs to be a platform that tells you that, oh, GB has paid you. You can now give GB what you, what you paid for. And yet money has not gotten to the supplier and that creates. There's a need for a middleman in there. And while the money can sit in bank, the instruction can sit in technology company that can give real time information to either the buyer or the supplier or whatnot. And that was the origin of the follower. So in 2016, I decided to give it a go again. You know, we entrepreneurs, we always get the, the hitch to start something. Um, that was it. And you know, spoke to all my bank, my banking, you know, colleagues and partners and they're like, hey, we will support you. And that's how we started. You know, here we are almost 10 years later. Yeah.

Speaker B: Wow. Benji, when the, uh, when did you first, what were you doing in 2016?

Speaker A: 2016. I was thinking about food. 2025 and still thinking about food. Nothing's changed.

Speaker B: Uh, when did you meet gb?

Speaker A: You know what, the first time I met gb, there was a question I saw published online, I think Flutterwave. I just hit a unicorn valuation and the tweet said, how much data is needed to build a unicorn in Africa? And somebody commented, one gb. You need one GB to get together to build a unicorn in Africa? No, I actually met gb, I think right after he finished, um, Y Combinator. I was a student in business school and we had invited Stanford.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: And we invited him to speak at, uh, our Africa conference. And I was actually on a panel interviewing him.

Speaker B: Oh, wow.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, uh, from there, me being a student just doing nothing and finding free food to, ah, um, being inspired to build a company by gb.

Speaker B: What's, um, how, how much do you kind of relate to GB's origin story around the challenges in Africa, around the payments landscape? And how much has that affected the way you thought about Nala and what you've gone on to do?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, firstly, um, I have a lot of love, empathy and patience for people like gb, because when I reflect on, um, some of the challenges we face as a business, I'm like, man, I don't even know how much, ah, what scale the pain that GV has had to face for these same issues. And it's actually given me a lot of love. And like, I'm like, you know, and I Text GB here and there. I'm like, hey, you got this. You know, I try to, like, support as much as I can, um, because I know the pain that we've felt as we've been building across the continent. Lots, um, of different, different challenges. Um, every region is different. You know, you have 54, 55 different countries, 40 different currencies, different central banks, different rules and requirements. This central bank's rule disagrees with the central bank's rule. So who do you agree with when you're trying to make both, both markets work? I think those are very challenging, um, and they delay decision making. Not from your side as a founder, but because you have to wait and you're held up by, you know, a central bank or maybe an opportunity that is locally, you're facing locally that you wouldn't face in other regions. And I think I'll tell you something that's really interesting. We operate in a few Asian markets today. My easiest African market was harder to go live in than my hardest Asian market, which tells you the nature of the opportunity, but also the challenges you face when you're trying to build across the African continent. It's, it's very difficult. And, and, um, that's why I want to see any founder that's building on the continent. I have so much love for, because, you know, just the, the fraction of the pain that we face as a business. I have so much respect for other entrepreneurs as well. Um, I'm like, you know what? Like, you know, I want this entrepreneur to win. I want the company to do well because it really helps us all. And like, you know, it really changes the dynamic of how people look at the landscape. And you also have to think about it, you know, for the amount of funding that comes to the region, our revenue generated per dollar spent is probably higher than any other fintech, um, in the world. You know, when GB is given $10 and I'm given $10, I know he'll be able to make a certain amount of money with that. I know I'll be able to make a certain amount of money with that. There's funding that goes to fintech companies globally that is just thrown away with all those majority of those companies dying, um, and it's not their fault, but like, okay, maybe they didn't build something people needed around the market, but I know on the continent or the region, like, these are real physical problems that you see on a daily basis that you're like, okay, wow. Like, you know, and however, there's some things that we both have to build that I don't even want to build.

Speaker B: Like what?

Speaker A: Like for example, local infrastructure. You're just trying to do local settlement in a market where there's the local payment switch is unreliable. Do you have to build a local payment switch? Do you have to build an integration to all the local banks and there's like a small microfinance bank that's frankly irrelevant to your P L. But if you don't support them, how do you enable businesses to trade And a large customer won't connect with you unless you have the. And then. So you have to dedicate engineers resources to go and build that local integration. Some small bank that is frankly irrelevant to your P and L. And you don't want to do it.

Speaker B: But that's how you unlock.

Speaker A: Yeah, but it enables them to be included into, into the space. Right. And so I think there's so many challenges that you're forced to build not by choice, by nature of the market. Uh, I remember when I met GB when we were working on Nala, I told him one thing. I said listen, we're on Zoom together. It's during COVID We're pivoting the business to cross border payments. I said, listen, gb, I need you to help me sponsor Arsenal. And I'm not even an Arsenal.

Speaker B: I thought you were a United fan.

Speaker A: I'm a United fan, but I know he's this guy's cook rice and he's been cooking rice with no trophies for many years. But we're going to park that for now.

Speaker B: You're top in Africa, but your team always finishes second, eh?

Speaker C: Well, you know, Asana is a very interesting club. You know, we, we're doing amazing things. The piano is great. I like Asana profitability goals. It aligns to mine as well.

Speaker B: So that makes sense. Speaking like a true fintech CEO man. Okay, leaving it to the P and L bad.

Speaker A: If we left it to the P and L, we'd have the PSG budgets. No, but I think, I think, you know, I, and, and when we started doing cross product payments, you know, we are building and solely in certain markets we started to realize I can't rely on the local bank, I can't rely on the local telecom. And the question we said is, okay, do we wait for somebody else to come and build it or do we just build this ourselves? And I think those are some of the challenges we face across the region, um, that create a large opportunity. I think there's going to be companies that are built across the continent that bigger than both Flood wave and NALA put together right over the next five to ten years. Um, and I think people should look at the region as very opportunistic. If you look at the region right, you hear this all the time. Africa's a 1.2 billion people today. It's going to be 2.5 billion by 2050. It's going to be the largest global workforce. All those people, whether you like it or not, are going to need to be employed or like run businesses as well. And like, businesses need to trade, money needs to move and money moving needs to happen no matter what. Business need to trade no matter what. And so technology solutions don't exist today. Tick Tock creators in Africa can get paid. Why? You know, there's no, uh, if I'm a Tick Tock influencer In Tanzania with 5 million followers, I can't get paid to my peso wallet. Why? When is that going to change? You know, and so like, if you think about so many economies that will be built in regions, like for example, if you look at the continent, even parts of Asia and many emerging markets, SaaS businesses almost don't exist. Why? Because there's no reoccurring payments that have been built or established. So think about the growth in technology companies that will exist across Africa, Asia, Latin America when you can do direct debit for reoccurring payments. Like if you run a gym today in Tanzania, every single month on the 1st, you're calling all your members, hey, can you make sure you pay the monthly blah, blah. So much time and value is lost when that happens. And so if there's ways we can do that, I think that's going to be a massive opportunity. Opportunity that it will create for many businesses to thrive and the whole region, continent to thrive.

Speaker B: No, that's, that's really interesting. Um, GB, when you, uh, so let's go back to 2016, you have this idea that you want to build this fintech that will, that will solve so many of the issues you're kind of seeing. Was there a moment once you started where you were like, damn, this is going to be way harder than I thought? And what was like the hardest thing at that time?

Speaker C: You know, there's this book that I like to read is called Hard Things by Hard Things by Ben Ruiz. And if you read that, uh, he

Speaker B: was actually at Money20 20.

Speaker C: So you know, if you read that book, you will see how hard things get solved and they create even harder things and you keep on going deeper into that entire scale. Um, I think the first piece was realizing that one Africa payment is not European payment, it's not US payment, it's not anything else that you, that we typically see or we know.

Speaker B: What do you mean?

Speaker C: You know, a fintech to open, say the fintech operating in Europe, for example, needs to get just one license, one regulation, one set of policies, one set of, you know, infrastructure, and that's it. The system has been built. If I get into SEPA right now, I can do pay and payout. It's done. Go find customers. You can use literally almost nothing to start a finger company in Europe. In Africa is the reverse. I have to go to every country and get a license, even a country whose entire footprint is now to Lagos and have to go there and get a license before I can operate in that market legally. And when I was starting, some country did not even have the licensing infrastructure for fintechs. Uh, so I started before some countries,

Speaker B: I'm Ethiopian, I know exactly wrote the

Speaker C: rules and some of the countries, you know, say, and when they wrote the rules, there was one country that actually we, we, we got there 2017, there was no licensing system in place for fintechs. And when the rule came in like two years later, they locked us out of the system.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So they made a rule after you'd been operating and then, and then that

Speaker C: would, made sure we were excluded.

Speaker B: Why?

Speaker C: Yeah, it happens. And then I had to apply. I, I had to apply. I had to apply seven times.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: I got, I got on the seventh try though, which is, which is good.

Speaker B: So I'm, I'm, as the Japanese say, four, seven, rise. Eight.

Speaker C: Exactly. So that gives you a view of the complexity of the continent and how much each country is so different. People say Africa, but I think if you go to Nigeria, it's a whole different culture in Nigeria, a whole different culture in Ghana, in Kenya. Ah. In, you know, in um, Egypt, in Morocco. It's different. Every country is so distinct, so payment system in each country, it's very advanced, which is interesting. Part m money movement in Nigeria is real time. There's no real time movement in the US until now. Even for Vermont Cash up. Right. In the UK that came way later, uh, than most countries. Cheaper payment accounts in Nigeria had been existing for years before the entire world caught on. So Africa is actually very advanced when it comes to payment, but the issue is that the money doesn't cross borders.

Speaker B: Hm.

Speaker C: MPESA is amazing and advanced in Kenya. Impressive is everything you need to live and survive in Kenya. But PESA doesn't work in Nigeria. It doesn't work. South Africa doesn't work in Ghana. Right. In Ghana, anything about money is way. Way is the biggest bank, pseudo bank, so to say, in Ghana. M. But yet it doesn't work that way in Nigeria or in Rwanda or in, you know, in. In Egypt. So we had to build infrastructures that will support our use case. To Ben's point, if he has a different use case tomorrow, he has to build the infrastructure. Unless he's lucky, somebody has a bit of infrastructure, then gets a partner. But if that doesn't. If that is a variation of in that use case, that doesn't just happen. Right. That's the level of complexity.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: So we get to invest a lot of capital in building. In building. A couple of days ago, I was talking to one of my earliest investors and it was like he sent me a screenshot of my first investment deck.

Speaker D: Oh.

Speaker C: And in that deck, I recall, um, the dollar was 150 Nigerian Naira.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: That was around 2016. 2015, 2016. And I was like, wow, you guys are really crazy to be in this market. Because the market has contracted actually across the continent. Same as happened in Egypt, same as put in Kenya. In South Africa, it's really huge contraction has happened across the continent. And despite that, we still have to thrive. So you imagine the amount of work you have to do to generate the same revenue. It's almost 50x the same amount of work you have to do. Right. And that is the complexity of Africa. But that's also the opportunity as well. Because when we can solve that problem very well at scale, we get to create real. Solve real problems, create value for entire ecosystem. Right. But that was the, the thinking behind that. The complexity is huge. License is not one single license. Even though recently I saw that there's a new partnership between the Ghana Central bank and Rwanda where they can do postponement of licenses.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: If that goes live, that would be incredible.

Speaker B: Right, Benji? It seems like you've got an opinion on that.

Speaker A: I mean, I would love to see it live.

Speaker D: Uh, I was gonna say Benji, it's a podcast. You gotta use your words, not your eyes. Those listening. If they can see Benji's face, go to YouTube.

Speaker C: Yeah,

Speaker A: we said what we said right there.

Speaker D: Not saying something says a lot sometimes, you know?

Speaker B: Yeah, perfectly.

Speaker C: I mean, both, you know, for the very first time that convoy is happening. It's. It wasn't happening before.

Speaker D: So it's.

Speaker C: It's a start. Right. Maybe to get there sooner than later than sooner. I don't know. But you Know it's a good start. So that is where things need to get to for things to get better. But it's really complex. In every country flow is different. Right. There's um, some flows you have to do when it comes to moving money between for businesses, you know that's the use case has not been thought of MHM and regulator even with their are amazing. They also haven't time thought about the old gamut of how that should work. So you are constantly innovating in day to day activities. That's the only way to survive. And that's where it's complex because today in the UK how to move money is very simple. How to sell money is very simple. Right? Yeah. On the payment network you're not and if you are, you can move money if you can't and that's it. In Africa it's not the same. Right. You uh, have to talk to partners and you know we have to find someone to integrate to of okay license and you look at the cost of getting a license, getting the infrastructure and you look at the flows you pass through that pipe. It's sometimes it sits with crazy.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean um, it's so interesting to me because as you're talking one of the things I'm thinking about is just you look at the US obviously a very developed financial market but it has, has a localized infrastructure right. Like uh, Venmo, we works for Americans works in that context. You come to Europe, we like in the UK for example a Venmo wouldn't work. We have real time payments between the major banks. So I can basically Venmo, when I'm using my Monzo and transferring to HSBC or whatever. And then in Asia, um, digital wallets work there uh, with the QR code. So there's like localized things that emerge and, and so I guess that's what's so powerful about what you're building there. Um, and what's so interesting about it too, right, like that it requires some level of like localized understanding of those markets to be able to actually move the needle.

Speaker D: Um, it's also more inspiring too, right. Like just to jump in as the absolute American that got here, you know, 30 minutes late and is uh, just kind of crashing the party. Um, how many problems does Chime have left to solve? Yeah, right. How many problems do you have left to solve? I mean you got a whole career in life and multiple companies and the whole. I mean I feel like you're going to solve pretty much all of them through Flutterwave. But the like the, the fruit hangs lower and is much more inspiring in my opinion. Like as an American, I actually don't really like working in American fintech. Yeah, I mean that's a lot more interesting what you guys are doing because

Speaker B: I think that's like a really good point because it's like the, the challenges, the moat as well, right? Like because the moat that you, that

Speaker D: both of you were building because of like the complexity and, and also like how many people that went to HBS are thinking about solving the problems you guys solve. Right. Like it's just a different kind of human. And also probably the HBS guy isn't going to handle it the way that you do, you know. So there's a lot of like, I feel like there's a lot of uh, doors that you're knocking down that maybe the HBS guy doesn't.

Speaker C: And the last time a payments rule was built in the US was maybe 20 years ago. Last time you knew rookie was in Nigeria was yesterday. Um, so it's a major market. They're still building, you know, new rules coming out every day. We're applying for licenses, we're trying to get them, you know and it's really hard. Right. However the rules have been set in the US like payment has not changed in 20 years. In America you just need to have your card or even Europe swipe. You're good. Maybe there's wallets like Apple pay make it you can use to tap but end of day still payment M infrastructure, it's still the same card rails right. But in Africa it's not the same which is why everything are changing. Disable coin infrastructure. The work that um NALA is doing, the follow is doing those work that is really, really important to actually enable and include people that were not originally in the entire ecosystem.

Speaker B: How has Benji to you, how has like how has the market changed since you know you, since you were in business school? Um, how has that African market changed? Is it becoming easier? Is it, is there more.

Speaker D: You didn't go to hbs did you?

Speaker B: He went to the other one, the one entrepreneurs.

Speaker A: Um, I think, I think the market's changed a lot and I think there's pieces about the market that become really interesting and I think I know GB mentioned a couple examples so where regulators have been quite supportive of Fintech and being very proactively open to supporting uh, different markets and how, how they expand. I think the challenge you have to realize though in a region like M, I'm talking about Africa, but I'm talking about Also a lot of emerging markets globally. So when you look at cross border payments, the dollar is the world's trading currency. Like 87 of trades for global trade happen in US dollars. And many people need dollars in order to move money. Like uh, for example, if you're in Uganda, which is right next to Kenya, right next to Tanzania, and you're trying to move money, first it has to get changed from Ugandan shillings to US dollars, goes to New York, then comes back through the SWIFT network maybe a day or two later, then it lands in Kenya, which also means you have to source dollars. Now you have to realize in these markets is, uh, a lot of emerging markets are net import regions which mean they import more than they export. So let's take a look at Kenya for example, or Nigeria, um, or Egypt, you know, some of the larger economies in Africa. If you look at Kenya, Kenya's Export value was $7 billion last year.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker A: It's pretty small import value, 23 billion. Okay. Kenya's largest export is tea, where they export mostly to the UK. So fun fact for you, 50 of the tea that's drunk in the UK, according to Boris Johnson in 2020 was imported from Kenya. So England, which is known for British tea, is actually probably Kenyan tea and maybe Indian tea, uh, quite a bit.

Speaker D: But it's facts

Speaker A: gotta come correct, right? But now you think about how that money moves. So you know, and, and one thing that's really interesting for this is, okay, you have a trade deficit of about $11 billion just in Kenya. However, uh, Kenyan migrants who live abroad, Kenyan diaspora sent home $4 billion. If tea is Kenya's largest export, Tea only brought in $1.2 billion into the market. Kenyan migrants abroad brought in four times the country's largest export. Which begs the question, is talent emerging market's greatest export. Now if you think this just an Africa thing, let's look at other markets. Let's go to India. India's largest export, refined petroleum last year according to the OECD, brought in $79 billion into India. Indian migrants abroad brought in $129 billion into India, significantly greater than the country's largest export. Same pattern in Nigeria, same pattern in Egypt. If you look at these markets. So as the world is growing and as trade increases and as population sizes in emerging market starts to grow, the trade volumes will also increase. But also the dollars that are brought into the market will also change. And the challenge you have in Africa is because there's a dollar shortage, people are willing to pay a premium above the mid market rate for the dollars. And that creates an even larger dollar surge, but also a black market. This is what happens when GB was talking about with Nigeria. You see the currency devaluing, it's painful. If you look from 2023 to 2025, the naira devalued three times. So if you made a million dollars in revenue in 2023, that revenue in 2025 is $300,000.

Speaker D: Two years.

Speaker A: Yeah. Over it was like a 17 month, 18 month.

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean less like trying to double check your mouth more just me being shocked, but wow.

Speaker A: But imagine the pain a Nigerian founder has to face when you're collecting revenue.

Speaker D: That's great.

Speaker A: And your revenue 20 months later, like 18 months later is one third what it was. But even though you grew as a

Speaker D: business, talk, uh, about wartime CEO.

Speaker A: That is massively painful for any founder. And this is why I said that from the beginning. I have so much love for people building these regions because that's not a today problem. That's been happening for many years in these regions. It's more pronounced when there's a larger dollar shortage. And when you have population sizes that are increasing in these regions, the demand for goods and services are also increasing. And when these countries can't produce, they have to import, they have no choice. So you take out a loan from the IMF in USD, you collect revenue in local currency, you got to pay back in USD, but the currency devalued 15% in that year. Or what happens as a central bank, as a country you're trying to grow, but you're fighting this problem because you don't have enough dollars coming into the market. And so proactively the way to do this and like, there's many ways, okay, one, increase exports. That's going to happen overnight, right? So like, that's why a lot of countries try to think, okay, how do we increase trade, how we bring in more dollars into the market. But also people, you know, whether it's companies that uh, that like technology companies that hire people across the continent that pay them in dollars, that bring in more dollars into the market, or whether it's tourism, whether it's people who move abroad for opportunities, you know, you've seen a lot like you're between Q1 this year the UK had 83,000 Indian migrants, first time migrants to the UK. And if you look at population sizes and their growth, India, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, across the last two years in the uk, largest, largest migrant population group, uh, coming to the uk, the UK government's like, oh, we need people to do a lot of work and we need to welcome people into this market. Okay, what happens now? Migration is often frowned upon and seen as a negative thing, but it creates significant economic mobility in both regions. Think about the migrants in the U.S. one fun fact, half 46% of the Fortune 500 companies in the U.S. have at least one migrant founder. 46%. 46%. Fact check me on this.

Speaker D: That is surprising and unsurprising. I guess it's a big stab but that makes so much sense bringing seven.

Speaker B: Incredible though, like I mean have you

Speaker D: met most Americans that are born in America? We're not doing the real so we're not working that hard.

Speaker B: You say that one but, but I'm

Speaker D: here for that reason.

Speaker A: But if you think about this, like even if you look at the startups, I have the statistic on startups, I don't want to misquote myself but like similar pattern you're going to see in the startups. It was like very bull statistic about number of unicorn startups, uh, with at least one migrant founder in the United States and it was, I don't know, at least 30 to 40%. So if you think about this, there's a lot of talent. It's not about oh we're just bringing whoever in and, and like you know, when people think about migration they think about with negative connotations but it actually helps two parts of the world. One, it helps that country like the United states where if 46% of your fortune fiverr companies is led by somebody who wasn't a US national born and raised and you know, lived there, you know, or had a parent that migrated to the US that contributes significantly to your economy. And it's like, oh, we only want those we don't want anywhere else. But also the other people, you know, that's me myself like I moved to the US on a scholarship that brought me there when I was 17. Then I moved back, then moved back. Stanford gave me a full scholarship to give eight, eight African students to scholarship to the MBA program a year. That's how I got to the business school. And you know that enabled me to even perceive even starting a company. I would have never started a company in the tech space. Like no in my family history started a tech company ever before. Neither probably GB as well, similar bracket but it creates this opportunity where migrants who live abroad, I'll tell you this, statistically our average customer in the UK spends 480 pounds a month with us every single month sending money home. Our average customer in the US $1,200 a month. That's probably 30% of their income from a person who lives paycheck to paycheck. That's literally rent money that they're sending home every single time. The question I ask myself and ask my team if this person's spending 30% of the income sending money home to develop their local economy or their local country or start a business, an Airbnb in Nigeria or in Dar es Salam or in Kala, their local countries really need that contribution, but they're also stimulating the local economy by hiring, by building a small business locally. And that is very inspiring. M. But also I think about it this way. Will that person in the United States be able to build long term wealth if 30% of their income is being sent home every month? Uh, because they have no choice. So how do we think about balancing the two out? How do we think about the Zach who used to work at KPMG in Lagos that got a job at KPMG in New York and moves to New York and JP Morgan Chase doesn't, uh, offer him a loan because he has no credit history in the United States. But yet every single month Zach sends 30% of his income home back to his family in Nigeria. How does Zach get a house one day? You know, how does Zach build long term longevity for his own family and kids in the future? So I think there's a lot of opportunity with migration that people often ignore. And, and I think the market is growing. Uh, there was an article that came out recently where it says the cross border payment volume for Africa is going to be 1 trillion by 2035. Okay, now how does it. Now I don't know what it is right now. Like the number, it's probably like the formal like 200, 300 billion is what people are saying.

Speaker D: Shouldn't have asked. This whole thing has been an experience of like finding out that Benji's an encyclopedia. So.

Speaker B: No, but Guy.

Speaker A: No but, but if you look at remittance volume for example, to Africa, the World bank says $110 billion was sent to Africa, including nor. It's like so people say sub Saharan Africa is 48 or including every, uh, the whole region is 100 billion. But that is formal transactions. Think about informal. Think about cash on planes. Think about like money transfers that aren't getting calculated in certain ways. And so FD Partners was predicting in 2025 it was 300 billion, including informal market. So that's triple what it actually is today. Now I think it's probably around there. Because if we look at market share, what Tanzania's volume is today with my home country, if we really count market share by what the central bank reports as remittance volume, now would have 35% market share. I know for a fact we don't. So all these numbers are massively understated for the region, like Africa. And so I think, you know, that same similar pattern, in my opinion, from regions like Asia or Latin America in certain markets only. Uh, so I think there's a huge opportunity. My point is, I think migration, yes, there's a lot of challenges with it, but it actually creates and stimulates economies on both sides. Um, and I think there's a lot more positive elements of it that often don't get discussed or looked at from a public standpoint.

Speaker D: I agree completely. And I'm wondering if we can edit this out if Mickey wants. But one of the things that I was thinking about as you were talking is how incredibly sad I am that Mickey was not granted a visa. Or granted. I don't know what the actual term is.

Speaker B: But, guys, I'm gonna. I'm gonna need you to. To call up your contacts in the State Department.

Speaker A: Hey, man, I don't even have a visa to be in the States. I'm actually flying to Tanzania, uh, on Monday for a visa appointment. And I run a company in the United States.

Speaker D: It's absolutely wild. Like, I mean, first off, being late to this and sitting here and, like, watching, like, you guys are friends. I think three years ago, this is.

Speaker B: GB Admitted it. We're all friends. We are all friends.

Speaker D: What I'm saying is we're looking at Mickey Tesfaya. We know this guy. The potential of this human is unbelievable. He's gonna do some amazing things in his life. We know that. He might try and, you know, whatever. He's already blushing. But we didn't let him stay in America. And, like, as an American, that pisses me off. That's insane that we did not allow that to happen. Of course, there's a multitude, um, of variables there, including elections and things along those lines. But, I mean, everything you're alluding to, basically, I feel like, closes the door to a lot of hope in America and sad.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's tough. I mean, I get, you know, I understand law and order, and I think, you know, there's a lot of challenges with that. And, like, you know, if.

Speaker D: Sure, fair, but also, like. But we're talking about Mickey.

Speaker A: I know I'm in the same boat, but it's not even Just the United States. Like, it took me when we were launching our UK office. I was coming in. I don't mind this being on record because, like, this is the real reality of the fact of how hard it was. I hold a tantian password. It's in my bag right now. I don't have other passports because our country doesn't allow more than one nationality. So you can only have a Tanzanian passport. You know, so when I'm traveling, when I was coming to the UK to set up our office, I was coming on a tourist visa. So I come on a tourist visa for three months, and then you can't stay there for more than two weeks on a tourist visa from a Tanzanian passport. So I'd come in there. The lady immigration was like, so why are you here? I'm like, uh, I'm gonna see Tower Bridge. Okay. Next thing. Why are you here? I'm going to see Stonehenge.

Speaker C: Oh, wow. Jolly.

Speaker A: You really like coming back to the uk? Like, yes. And I'd have to show booking and show some random hotel booking that I was making, and as soon as I passed immigration, I'd go and cancel the booking. I'd stay at my friend's house or on the couch or, you know, while we're building the company. I'd go to East London, Barking, Dford. I'd sit outside this church on Sunday, the mosque on Friday, and I'd stop people and ask them, how do you send money to Africa? That's how we got our first pictures. Pardon?

Speaker C: Jesus. Go to the, uh, attack Follow us.

Speaker A: Of what?

Speaker C: Of everywhere you're going in UK to prove that you were.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I had. I mean, you download the, like, take a photo of, like, Stonehenge. Like, yeah, this is where I went to Stonehead. Really? Yeah, I. I did. I have him. I can show you now.

Speaker D: As an American, I just like. It continues, uh, to amaze me how sheltered we are.

Speaker A: But I applied for. For a global talent visa, and it took me with a Tanzanian passport, 14 months to get one.

Speaker D: They should have listened to the beginning of this podcast.

Speaker A: And today I employ 70 people in the UK okay. So I was coming there as the boss of all these people, basically illegally working on a tourist visa. And, okay, I'm going into. Try, uh, renting. Nobody's giving you rent or pay a year up front. Okay. Because you don't have, uh, how. Where are you going to get a year up front of rent money? Okay. Try setting up an office. And you have no authorization as the director of the entity to be in the uk. How are you going to set up an office? I'm, like, trying to convince some local person in England, hey, can you be a director of my company? They are. They can run away and do something. Can be massively malicious to the business. And what other choice do you have as a migrant to the country? And so these are some of the realities of the challenges being a migrant founder, not just in the U.S. but in many countries that we face. Like, you know, and it's. I, uh, I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, the cost of being a migrant. The fact that I'm flying on Sunday to Tanzania just for a visa appointment that none of my American or European friends will ever have to do in their country, waste two whole days or three days plus money. Or the fact that every single time I have to go apply for a visa, I have to show a full route, flight, hotel booked and everything. The amount of cost and time and extra time I have to take. The essay is to prove why I'm going to Spain for three days or Amsterdam. Um, to just speak at Money 2020 is ridiculous.

Speaker D: I got a picture. I mean, it's very like the American. Like, it's expensive to be poor thing. Feels like a very good M metaphor for this. Like.

Speaker B: Yeah, but I mean, I think. Okay, on the flip side, like, this is why what you guys are doing is so important too. Right? Because ultimately Flutterwave, existing in Nigeria means more people there that can be inspired to build there, building the continent. And I think that's a very important part of changing this. What Benji, you're saying is absolutely true. Like, we at, ah, Money 2020 know that because there's. We have programs, for example, called Amplify, try and bring in voices from, you know, underrepresented communities.

Speaker D: Well, anyway, just prioritize in general, trying to make sure that we actually have the full conversation.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Like, even outside of that room.

Speaker B: But the challenge is, like, we have a bunch of, like, African, um, professionals that have to drop out because they can't get a visa on time because of how strict it is to get these visas in the Netherlands. Right. So, on the one hand, completely, there is literally everything you said. I'm experiencing some of those challenges. Um, I've seen it. But I think that's also what's so inspiring about what both of you are building. Right. Like, ultimately, the only way to start changing that is in what is in the continent's control, which is being able to create an environment in which more founders and you know, the best talent, maybe they have to leave to. To to learn or to flourish, but they can come back and have an inspiration to build there. Um, and saying that I think like at Flutterwave, that's a good example. I feel like there's a bunch of folks that have graduated through Flutterwave and you know, started building too.

Speaker D: So how's my perception too? It's like the PayPal mafia kind of. It's a Flutterwave mafia.

Speaker C: Yeah, we, we do have our mafia. Yeah, I'm very proud of that. But to, to Benji's point, I think one big deal we have to think about is Africa is still seen as a risk, not an opportunity. M. That's the biggest problem here. Right. Even if you're an African with a US passport when I see your African name which you cannot actually avoid. Right. You still get. For example I saw an email from a bank in the US recently a fintech bank and they said, said they're going to close the account of every African in their bank. Oh yeah, right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then these are African countries next to some crazy terrorist driven war torn countries and they were going to close. If you've got even a staff who is logging from maybe Nigeria, from Kenya or Tanzania, your account will be shut down. That's the risk.

Speaker D: Was this recent.

Speaker C: There was one. There was an email like, like a week ago from. You don't do. But I don't want to mention the bank's name.

Speaker D: No, you're good. I just, I wanted generalities just because you know uh, administrations and uh, and the CFPB not totally existing anymore. Seems like it could play a role in that fact.

Speaker C: Right? Yeah. Uh, those are the problem. And when you see an African fintech apply for maybe a some sponsorship in the US maybe which we need to be a part of the U S payment infrastructure for example or to do you know, MSB money M transfer in the US the right way and you see two, two fintechs apply. One is a US fintech the US founder. Mhm. That's key. And a US Fintech an African founder. Even if you do you have a US passport and you both apply, one gets a rejection, get an approval the same set of market. Right. That. That is also a problem. So I think those are things that we have to solve for. We have to help the world see the Africa is not a risk, it's an opportunity. That's what we have to do. And then when I see what Alamon is doing, what we're also doing, for example I had one of My colleagues apply for a visa. And I said, where do you work? And I said, follow me. Like, oh, follow with approved. And I was like, okay, great. Right. That's what we have. We have to build that. It's going to be painful, but I think in 30, 20, 50 years time, we remember that we built that infrastructure that now everybody can ride on. I think we need to just move away from. Okay, the. It's a problem. We aren't a problem. I'm going to solve it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: How do we fix it?

Speaker B: What's the solution? Yeah, I might have to put Flutterwave on my, my LinkedIn just to get my visa sorted.

Speaker D: Interviewed GP

Speaker C: for two hours.

Speaker B: I mean, I couldn't agree more. Um, so what's the solution?

Speaker D: Yeah, can I, can I take that a step further in terms of what's the solution? Because I think there's a. Really. One of my biggest regrets in life is that I didn't actually go a governmental route at all. Like, the more time that I spent in finance, the more I wish that I would have, like, gone into regulation or spent some time at, you know, the FDIC or something like that, or eventually run for office. Like, it feels like that in the US is.

Speaker A: It's not too late.

Speaker D: I think based on some of the things I said on this podcast, it's already too late. Um, in the us it feels like the ability to change perception about the whole country is very political. And it seems like, I mean, I'm sitting next to GB that I've looked up to for a long time, who I just noticed is wearing an ap.

Speaker C: Like, feels as though

Speaker D: private markets might actually, like, it feels inverse. It feels like, I mean, if you. And just, uh, honestly, the aura that you've created seems like it is the first step in what you're talking about, right? Like the inspiration of just like building capitalist companies that then exit, then Flutterwave mafia, then like making you blush a little bit. But I think it's true. I think that's actually the solution. Whereas in the US it's go run for office.

Speaker B: But how much of this, like, is also just a problem with, uh, the venture world? Because I feel like to your point about Africa still being seen as a risk, right? And we earlier on we touched on like, you made the point around what can fintechs solve right now in developed markets? And it feels like there is this kind of dark side of venture where, you know, it creates markets itself and lots of the, like, actual innovations of iterations of what already exist. Um, instead of like, actually Having what venture was supposed to be for. Right. Like to actually do outside best bets, to take real risk. Because if you look at a continent like Africa, yes, there's a lot of challenges and obviously there's a lot of nuance, but it's also the fastest growing population. It's an economy that's going to accelerate and that's where the opportunity lies. Right? Like that's. So I wonder how much of that is part of the issue here is that VC has become so big and it's become the default way to fund businesses. Which is quite strange actually if you think about it in big picture. And to uh, a point you were making earlier on about the, the migrant, um, ratio for founders. I think something like over 50 of the value in the US stock markets is held by VC backed companies. Yet the number of folks that are employed or representing, represented in the job market is like 12%. Like it's creating a mismatch in there as well.

Speaker D: So it's a herd mentality. Right? I mean at the end of the day, if the herd is going this, this direction, like if, if you were truly the definition of a venture capitalist, like wouldn't you be in Latin America and Africa right now? Like would. Isn't that the thing that makes the most sense? I would think not Silicon Valley, but.

Speaker A: Well, well here's, here's the. You asked me about the actual.

Speaker D: He had to get the stat. He could, he couldn't get out of the podcast booth in the stat.

Speaker A: Well here, let me read it to you. 46% of Fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants or their kids, generating 8.6 trillion in value and employing over 15 million people in the United States.

Speaker D: States.

Speaker A: This is as of 2024 now of startups, 55% of billion dollar startups, meaning startups valued over a billion dollars in America founded by immigrants. A studies have showed that 55% of American billion dollars, at least one immigrant founder. The collective value of these startups exceeds 248 billion dollars, which is more than the stock market value of several countries like Ireland and Argentina. But yeah.

Speaker D: So if we, but if we stop letting people in, which is clearly what we're doing, will those companies get started in the same way and grow the same way in whatever country they were coming from? Right. Because of the American infrastructure and all that kind of stuff. Like is there a little bit of a fallacy in terms of having to be in America for that growth to happen or is that not true at all?

Speaker A: I think it depends on the region. So Will it happen in Africa? Probably not. Um, because markets are so different.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Do you have a market that earns that much money where you can charge people 50 bucks a month for a

Speaker D: subscription based service and they forget that they're even paying it?

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Probably not, right? Not for a while. It will get there, but not today. Yeah. Um, and it's not the fault of the region. It's just the dynamics of how structure is built and income is, is very, very different from the U.S. also, building

Speaker D: that infrastructure is also another opportunity. Right.

Speaker A: Massive opportunity.

Speaker D: And it's all how you look at it. That's my take from this conversation is perspective.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So you can build that and you could make a lot of money building that.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, uh, solve a lot of problems for many people. But if, if you're asking, arguing about, okay, could you build that similar company maybe in a market like Australia or the uk where earning income potential is similar to certain cities in the us Then yes, depending on who you're serving.

Speaker D: Makes sense.

Speaker B: We're coming up to like almost our ah, Mark to close this, you know. M, I know you are late.

Speaker D: I mean, yeah, I sprinted from the other stage. I'm sorry, guys.

Speaker B: No, uh, I don't care about the excuses, but GB, you are telling us 2016, you started this Flutterwave. You've been on this journey almost 10 years now. What's the thing you're proud of the most? M,

Speaker C: that's a very deep question. Um, what I'm proud of the most? I think it's the people.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: Um, the people are what makes everything work right? Not the technology or the innovation. It's all down to the people. Right. And I think we've got an amazing set of people at th wave. Um, they are the secret source of that makes everything work. And uh, we've seen those people. We've seen some people join early leave to build companies. Uh, for example, if you didn't know this, um, the R will get free hat from me. But L5 used to work at F Wave, right? Yep. One of my engineers, um, you know, we have a bunch of people like Femi or Ellipt Manager, Flutter Wave, who now runs a company called Vend. We have Dami running Sense Print and Company. Um, we have a bunch of people have left for to build amazing companies, which is amazing. Right, so it's a people then. We have people who have lifers who have me here who just said, you know what, this is my own intro. They are entrepreneurs in photov. I love that, yeah. And they are really amazing folks from every division from marketing to product to engineering go gets. We've been here for eight, nine years and they've been here from day one. Guest who also joined us on the journey as well to bring in, I call them Rocket 4 to our rocket ship. They just come. These are the people. The people have been the biggest discovery and experience for me on this journey.

Speaker B: Before I come to Benji, one more question for you, gb. Um, how have the last nine years changed you?

Speaker C: I literally grew up, uh, so, so I started my career pretty young. In almost everything that I've done. Even though I have like almost 20 years of experience, I'm not so whole

Speaker A: at the same time.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Um, so when I was like 24, I was also almost like a GM in a bank in Africa. Youngest ever, I think in Africa. Youngest.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: Uh, you know, um, so I was already working for CEOs from 22, 23, 24. I was running a Pan African banks digital infrastructure at 25. Uh, right. So it wasn't really, you know, but follow has taken 10 years to try the heart of me. Um, and call. It was like someone said to me GB this will be at least a 10 year journey. I said nah, it's going to be two years. My last company was two, three years. I was done. I moved on. Uh, but you're right, you can't. Is it, you know, good things take time to build, right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And really well and, and keep scaling and growing it and be sustainable for a long time. It's really hard. What I've seen that's been also amazing. The journey has been seeing folks like Benji build Nala into a big awesome company. Um, you know, see Redraw and build Landfire. Seeing all these other companies, I am always rooting for them. Right. Um, we have a few dollars to invest. I invest where I don't have to invest. I invest. My advice, whether you like it or not, um, but it's just amazing seeing this ecosystem grow and there's not one solution to the world we're building. It's a huge problem. Everybody just will just pick a corner and solve it. Maybe in 10 years time we will converge and say yes, you've solved that, I've solved that and it's working. But Africa is such a very big market. Right. And the problems are different. The way I will solve, the only way Benji will solve. There are things that Wenji knows about Tanzania you can find on Google. It's just innate born information that nobody can. I can't get from. And that's something that I end up on Nigeria doesn't also know. And so we get to learn from each other. We get to rub minds across. So that's the value of. And this is partnership, especially in our M market, where wanting to do it like this is where the rising tide or ships gets lifted. There's no, you know, A is doing well. When A does well, B can do well. And that's the opportunity that we have. So for me, it's really just being part of the ecosystem of people who are building. And we all also. We all went to yc, we all came back. We also have problems. We're always in capital. Uh, you know, we're talking similar investors, similar customers. You know, we're partnering. Sometimes we compete. Me on pricing, and I beat me on pricing, which is fine. You know, just keep going. So.

Speaker B: So, yeah, I love that Benji, if we did this interview When Nala is 10 years old, what would he have achieved? What do you want it to look like?

Speaker C: Nala will not be here for that interview. I can tell you for sure. Benji would be on an Highland song actually eating food.

Speaker A: Eating food, man. I don't know. I don't.

Speaker B: I.

Speaker A: The amount of things that we need to build in order for us to be successful is massive. And we're very, very, very, very, very far from there. And the work is still ahead. You know, my. My board member, when he raised money and people are like sending you all these text messages, congrats.

Speaker D: All you have to say is, they're not CEOs. Anybody who's sending a congrats. And now the work actually starts. This isn't fun.

Speaker A: And, you know, speaking about eating food, you know, the chef doesn't celebrate getting the ingredients.

Speaker D: M. That was a good.

Speaker A: Like.

Speaker D: Did you come up with that?

Speaker A: No, my board members told me that to me, I was like, oh, we're gonna do this around announcement on TechCrunch. Why, you know, get back to work. You know, so. Which I like. And, you know, there it's. It's. We need to think about that for, like, the problems that we have to save. And this is what I tell the team. I was like, look, we're completely irrelevant until we start growing and growing, growing more to where we need to be. I spoke to a CEO of one of the biggest crossworder payments companies in the world recently. And, uh, you know, I told him kind of like some of the challenges were facing. And he says, benji, call, uh, me when you're moving at least $10 billion a month. Until then, you're irrelevant. Remember that. And I love that. And I love.

Speaker D: Get that tattooed.

Speaker A: Put that on the wall, you know? And so I was like, you know what? You know, I. I tell the team. I was like, look, still babies, you know, we can't act successful. We can't pretend that we're doing really well. Like, we've got so many other problems and things we need to fix and build up as a business. And until we didn't think that the true impact is going to come from us delivering for our customers at the end of the day, and that's what's

Speaker D: going to matter the most that gave

Speaker B: me goosebumps was, uh, gentlemen, what can I say? It's been. It's been a dream.

Speaker D: Thanks for letting me hang out, guys, with my friends.

Speaker B: Thank you both so much. Um, honestly, such inspirations. As an African, I can say that because, you know, I'm from Ethiopia, and trust me, if Africa is hard, Ethiopia is probably the hardest place to build anything in right now from a financial services perspective. Yeah. Can't wait to do part two with you guys. Uh, thank you.

Speaker D: And if anybody from the department, State, is listening, we still would like to revisit Mickey's visa.

Speaker B: Thank you. Yes.

Speaker D: And that's everything is Fintech.

Speaker B: It.