EP 154 - Product Ashtangi with Bhavesh Ratanpal

Speaker A: M. Hello product people. Welcome to the Product for Product podcast hosted by Matt Green, data advocate and product manager, and Musha Mikanovsky, product leader and author. Our goal is to serve the product community by helping you find products that can help make your work in product management easier. Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Product for Product podcast.

Speaker B: Welcome back everyone. On today's episode, Mishe and I are excited to speak with founder and author Babish Rattenpaul about his book Prada Ashtangi. So let's dive in. Welcome to the show, Bhavish.

Speaker C: Hey Matt, thanks. Thanks for inviting me.

Speaker B: It's uh, a pleasure to have you. Hey Mache.

Speaker D: Hey Matt. Hey Bhavesh. Really nice meeting you. And um, um, I'm always excited for our discussions, but today it's quite different from what we usually talk. So it is a book, it is for product people, but there is also this um, old wisdom in it. So I'm uh, quite excited about that.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. That's definitely what intrigued uh, me about the book, going through it, hearing about your experience and then having that relayed into our product experience. So love to uh, how it's translated together.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Particularly, you know, in fact, what actually inspired me to mix both of these streams, I would say product management and uh, the ancient wisdom of um, the Vedic literature together is uh, particularly. I have this like I was born in a family of a priest, so my father is a priest. And apparently I was always exposed to the Vedic literature, um, around me. But uh, it's. It's something like, you know, you have all the books around you, but up until you're not blessed to open them and then read them and get the knowledge, you know, uh, it's. It's just a river flowing in front of you, but you have to dip into it. So I guess 2021 was the time when I got opportunity to d into it and I bought my one way ticket to India and I got my yoga certificate and uh, yeah, that pretty much was a pivoting point in my life.

Speaker D: Yeah. So, so let, let's talk a bit about your um, product management background. How did you get to product management? And then uh, we'll. I would love to hear more in details. You know, this story about this change in your life. Uh, uh, re. Re. I don't know how to say it but uh, maybe uh, refinding your roots or reconnecting your roots to what you're doing professionally.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, there's a, There's a very good book Called the Journey Home, um, by someone named. His name was Swami Radhakrishna, uh, and he was someone living in Chicago. And uh, I felt the same way, you know, when I went back to India. Uh, but yeah, to start with my experience with product, um, to start. Yeah, well, I was, uh. Well, let me start with my education background. I have a bachelor's in statistics and a master's in computer science. Okay. And during the final year of my, um, degree, we have this course, I mean we have ah, entire semester where we have to build a product basically. Right. And I realized that uh, I was very good in bringing the team together rather than actually coding. And that led me to, I was like, why don't I do project management? So I came to Canada in 2011 to start my career as a project project manager. So I went through the traditional route of being a student again. So then I did one more degree over here for project management. And eventually I worked with TD Bank, I worked with Citibank, I worked with Telus. Um, I was working for Telus for a good 10 years, I'd say. And uh, yeah, around 2021 was the time when it, you know, uh, it's. I, I think it was kind of my midlife crisis. I was turning 35 and I'm like, you know, what do I do next in my life? You know, you have all the challenges in front of you and you rediscover yourself. But yeah, I have around, I'd say 15 years of project product management experience, uh, with a complete, I would say I started as a Java developer back in India, but soon I realized that, you know, I'm a good project manager than a developer. And I pivoted towards that. But then in 2023, I'd say I pivoted back to programming and uh, I realized that this is a time while we are in this world of AI coding, web architecting, we should be, um, if we have idea, if we have a prototype concept in our mind, you know, it's, it's a, it's a perfect time to translate it into something functional basically. And uh, yeah, I was like, if I'm really want to live the philosophy that I believe in and I, uh, first let me put it into a book and I'm gonna live my philosophy.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. When thinking about doing the book, did you like being, going into product, you're like, well, I'm good at, you know, bringing people together to solve problems. But you know, we all know that that can be very chaotic, you know, very stressful. Sometimes. So going into the book and going into your, the approach in the book, did you find yourself having to go back and, and really kind of drudge that up to like calm your mind and calm how you focus in terms of product management?

Speaker C: Yeah, well, as I said, you know, I did have this, um, I was born in a family of a priest. So, you know, in the background whenever I was product role before my 2021 experience, uh, whenever I was facing this chaotic state of mind in making the critical decisions related to product, it always reminded me that, you know, a calm and steady mind makes better decisions. When a, uh, water, let's say if the river is deep, the surface is very calm. But when the surface is calm, that's when the water is flowing very fast underneath, you know, uh, so you keep your surface calm when you are building those products and underneath you need to flow. You need to make sure that the features and everything is coming together and you're coming up with final product that is solving the pain points of the people. And that empathy towards the pain point of people is something that led me to eventually write the book.

Speaker B: I'd say, oh, uh, that's super helpful. Maybe, maybe what might be good for listeners to even zoom all the way further, further out and talk about what is Ashtangi? And you know, what's your, what's the, the mindset that you have to, to have when thinking about this?

Speaker C: Oh, that's uh, that's the question. In fact, I was um, uh, I was hoping we will lead to. Yeah, but basically the term, um, uh, product Ashtangi, what I'm trying to build over here is product. Of course, you know, when you are building products around you and you want to keep your mind state, uh, your state of mind as calm and composed. The first ever product you work on is actually your own self. Unless you're not working on your own self to a level where you have that steady, uh, state, you know, where on surface, no matter how many negative feedbacks or, you know, your NPS is maybe six or five or whatever, but you determine based on that that, okay, this is where I have room to improve my product. Rather than feeling, um, you know, dejected by the feedback that the users have actually shared. Right. Or rather than coming up with a entire questionnaire which is just focused towards, you know, making you look good. Right? So, uh, you have to have that transparency, you know, you have to have that ethical state of mind. And that's the first step of Ashtangi. So Ashtangi, the term in Sanskrit Asht means eight and aang, um, means limb. So it says that it has eight, uh, limbs basically in terms of accessing your personality to a level that you have the knowledge of absolute truth. That means you have the. You are so blissful in creating the products where you uh, are focused only in solving the pain points. And you're not taking anything with a grain of salt and you're taking it personally, you know, because a lot of times when you zoom in you look at things personally, but when you zoom out you look at a social welfare. How are you solving the problem for the entire Persona, right. For which you ended up coming for a feature. And uh, the first step towards it is called Yama. So yama, it means that uh, where you are truthful, you are uh, honest truthful, you have, you, you know that there's a bigger entity out there for which you're working, you know, rather than having the state of ego towards building the products. So yeah, it kind of breaks it down to I would say Yama, Niyama Asana. So there are eight limbs explained by Yoga Sutra. And Yoga sutra is a 5000 year old book by a guy named Patanjali. And uh, yeah, I'm trying to give that eight perceptions of my. Through my book, uh, saying that if you have this perception towards creating the product, you can have a different welfare, uh, focused product which is more towards solving the pain points of the user, more towards the ethical building of the society. Right?

Speaker B: Mhm. That's, that's great. And all the different arms, they all work together, you know, I'm looking through the descriptions of them. They all seem to work together and kind of feed off each other.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, you know, if I have to go deeper into it, uh, one of the things I'm. So let's say the perception of clarity. Okay. Unless you don't have the clarity regarding why you are solving a problem, you know, your what and how comes very later, you know. So your why has to be driven by the clarity of which pain point do you really want to solve? Basically, right. Then it's a uh, perception of ethical creation. Once you understand your why, you know, let's say your why is to make a bomb, you know, and that was the ethical dilemma Robert Oppenheimer was facing. Right. Uh, and is it, is it a. In fact the bomb was named as the bomb for peace, right? And uh, up until now everyone has used it, you know, not exactly for peace, but uh, what I'm trying to say over here, even Robert, uh, Oppenheimer read the same book that I'm, that I'm referring in chapter three, it's called Bhagavad Gita where uh, he's saying that, you know, if you have that level of capacity of doing something, you take the ownership and then you make sure that the society is going at a welfare path rather than going in a negative path because you are working on yourself as the best product. And the best product will focus on the social solution rather than a personal solution.

Speaker D: I love uh, everything about that because I was always, you know, when I'm talking about product, I always tell uh, people that it's still um, very um, misunderstood discipline because it's pretty. Compared to other disciplines in the industry, it's pretty new. Um, it's not as old as accounting or as law, and it's not as uh, developed and uh, mature as uh, software development and engineering and stuff like that. But uh, when taking it in this perspective, it seems like there is a lot of things we could have taken from uh, this um, ancient wisdom and bring it into um, into the world. But no one actually never made that connection for me before.

Speaker C: Well, here's the book for you then.

Speaker D: So how do you, how do you um, I mean do you, do you face this, this um, problem sometimes? And I understand now why, you know, you, you wrote the book. But for people that are not from that part of the world and don't have this knowledge and history and being born into priest, uh, uh, family and stuff like that, how do you feel? Uh, they perceive it and, and, and um, can adopt it.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well um, this is where I'm also bringing, so this book called Yoga Sutra. Uh, it gives a perception, uh, pretty much the same. So uh, in chapter one, verse number two, it says yogasa chitta vritta nirodha. Okay, so be with me. So yogasya, uh, it means yoga. Yoga means union. When you unite your soul and body, then chitta, Chitta is the observer, uh, in your sense. So you always have an observer and you have an experiencer, uh, right within you. You know, if you, if you look at your life as a movie, you know, you will always uh, you might end up feeling emotions or into the movie, but suddenly like, oh, it's just something going out on the screen. Why am I crying? Right. That's the perception you need when you are creating products. Basically, you know, you always detach yourself as an observer rather than an experiencer. So uh, and that is uh, the chitta and vritta. So yogasa chitta is the observer and vritta uh, is the experiencer. And the last word says nirodha. It means control. So the whole verse says when you unite your soul and your body, you have a complete control on your inner self as well as the experiencer self. You know, so if I have to put it in an example, let's say I have a crystal in front of me and that's what I'm talking about in the book as well. And right behind the crystal I have a rose. So when I look at the crystal I think the crystal is of red color. And when I move the rose away I see the crystal was clean and clear. Right. And our, that's our perspective always should be our perspective always towards the life, you know, in terms um, of having that product as crystal clear in our mind as possible and not be distracted by the vritti, the rose impression behind the product. Where you have, if you are working on a prioritization list, you're not working on the features that are just, I would say, uh, cosmetics. You should be working on the features that are actually solving the pain point, the cosmetic part, you know, making the theme dark and light. That is, that is not a priority for a user. Well, it might be when they're working at night, but it is way too late in the uh, in the roadmap. Right. So having that clarity of roadmap comes from the perception of knowing that are you experiencing it or are you just observing it? Because you may have to change the role time to time. Sometimes you have to fit yourself into the shoes of experiencer of the user and have that uh, in person experience of what exactly was their journey as a customer of the product and which particular point, if I go through the LB, gups, uh, learn, get, buy, use, pay support at each of those steps. If I step into as an experiencer and see, oh, this is a feature I could solve. But then again you go back as an observer, as a product manager or a product owner and you say like okay, on a bigger picture, this is how it should be working.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker D: Interesting. Can you tell us of a time where you implemented it yourself? You're building now your own um, startup, uh, I believe, and you have a product already there. And so how did you apply this in real life?

Speaker C: Um, well I will, I will talk about, sorry, I'll talk about this experience from two perspectives. One, when I was working for an enterprise and second in my personal journey, uh, right now as a startup owner. Right. So one of the examples I was working on a product where we had to migrate weblogic applications from on premises to cloud, you know, and the right solution for that, because it was weblogic and because it was uh, old technology, the right solution could have been terraform. But when we were talking with the architects, Kubernetes was kind of new, something that we could have tested. But then we realized that with Kubernetes, we end up using more resources, compute resources basically to come up, uh, to make sure that the product is uh, scalable enough down the road. Right? Because if you are scaling it and if the container is using too many resources with every new container, then it might end up increasing our cost for the cloud usage as well as the uh, environmental impact of the cloud usage. Right. So if I had to think as a uh, experiencer, you know, just, I'm like, okay, Kubernetes, amazing. I can increase and reduce the uh, allocation of memories whenever I need, but the reality of the product's need was only terraform. So you. I was, we were being conservative in terms of using the resources so that the user is getting their problem solved. And at the same time we are concerned about the environmental impact. Right. So this type of, I would say perception needs to be adopted throughout the product management, uh, product field and product ownership level where we are conserving our resources. At the same time we are thinking of the planet while creating our products. Right. And uh, uh, that pretty much led me to uh, start my startup where we are saying that uh, I am focused towards building the products that are human centric. With all this AI around in the world, somehow we forget there is a human at the back who actually needs the problem to be solved. Right. So this is what I'm doing through my corporation, we call it Expert Incorporated and we are expert in building applications that are human centric and they are solving the real pain points. I have a couple of products, um, that um, I'm planning to showcase in uh, the Web Summit. Um, one of the products is um, it's a matchmaking app between a shelter and uh, someone who can adopt a pet. So if you want to swipe right or left, why don't you swipe on animals and eventually save their lives? That is one of the product and the other product I'm working on, it's uh, about governance and strata management. Uh, so in British Columbia, now that we have so many new buildings coming up, we uh, need a proper governance in making sure that the council is getting a right, uh, handover from a new builder to a, uh, proper operating, um, building. And that experience came from, I mean I'M I'm a first time home buyer since two years. So I'm like, you know, I became a part of my council and I'm a VP as well over there and I'm like, you know, if there's a problem, let me solve it. So I ended up creating a product.

Speaker D: Yeah. Amazing, Amazing. So if uh, someone is new to it, they, you know, maybe they heard about yoga before, but mostly in the Western eyes where it's just about another exercise, um, uh, class, um, or they didn't even hear about it, but they, this piques their interest. Where do you suggest, uh, they start?

Speaker C: Oh, um, yeah, I have uh, so in my book, I have mentioned, there are two books that will help, you know, where the Bhagavad Gita should be considered as a manual of the, of the life and Yoga Sutra should be considered as a architectural playbook of your life, you know, uh, because uh, well, Bhagavad Gita is a book that um, Robert Oppenheimer read, Albert Einstein read, Elon Musk read. When the Prime Minister of India met the prime minister of Russia for the first time, he gifted him this book saying that this is the only gift I can give it to you. And this book has, I would say, uh, you know, years and years of uh, history to a level where Nikola Tesla was recommended this book by Swami Vivekananda in 1894 World Religious Conference. And uh, yeah, uh, that's the reason I would say this book acts as something where you. But it's a very heavy content. It's a 45 minutes conversation between God and his disciple basically. And the guy is just about to step into a war. And that's pretty much the state of mind we have every time when we are um, building something, we are pretty much in a state of war and we have to make a decision that should I go ahead with this or not to go ahead with it? Right? And in the case of the protagonist in that book, Bhagavad Gita, he says that he was about to kill his family on the other side. And he's like, it's better I step away. I just, you know, if knowledge is the best solution, why don't I accept knowledge and why do I do karma, right? And God says that the route to knowledge is through karma. If you have to learn something, you have to act on it. And based on actions, you understand what is the right thing to do. And, and it's a circle basically. So there's a karma yoga, there's a uh, Bhakti Yoga. So let's say in, in this situation, while we are in a podcast, my action is to tell you in depth of what exactly I should, uh, the how Bhagavad Gita is explaining the life. But let's say rather than listening to me, you are uh, listening to maybe a YouTube video, whatever. So your, your devotion towards me is distracted. And that's the second yoga. So karma yoga is you start with, but the second is bhakti, the devotion. Without devotion, your action is of no use. Okay. And once you devote yourself, but again you have a question in front of you. Where do I devote myself? And to know that is the third one. It's called Dharma yoga where you understand what is the right thing to do. Unless you don't know what is the right thing to do, doing anything will not matter. And to know what is the right thing to do, you have to have a knowledge. And that's the fourth yoga. It's called Gyana yoga. And once you have this. And again, yoga is the union of your soul and the body. So for the western world, yoga is just considered as a physical aspect of asana. But asana is one of the eight limbs of yoga actually as I said, you know, Yama, Niyama asana, pranayama, pratyahar dharana, Dhyan samadhi. So it is like there are eight limbs and each of them have their own, uh, weightage basically. So as I said, yama is the personality of truthfulness. Niyama is the repetitiveness that you should be having in your uh, action. So even if you do one time, you know, but unless you don't have a self restraining capacity, uh, of doing the same thing again and again, you don't get onto the mat, you know, getting onto the, you go on the mat, you do exercise or yoga one time and you're like, I'm a yogi. No, that doesn't work that way. Right. So there's another sutra, it says, so if you keep practicing abhyas, uh, vairagya is liberation. If you keep practicing, your body will get the liberation from all the problems that you're facing. And that liberation, that state of liberation is what eventually we seek. We want to. Sometimes we are so deep in our focus, uh, that we lose the track of time. And that's the best work that we bring out on the table actually. Right. And that is when your soul and your body is completely united and you are in the state of asana, where, so asana is the uh, is a complete state of your Body, where your body is relaxed and it's at the optimal usage. And then comes the, the fourth one is the breath workout. The fifth one is called pratyahar, where you have the understanding of the Almighty. And the sixth one, it's considered as this. Um, it's the first spiritual limb that is the perception. It's called dharana. So dharana means somewhere, once you accept something, you know, um, I always say to people that dharana is a perception. And perception is like a cloth. No one else can tell you to take it off unless you decide to take it off. Unless you are in that state of mind. That I want to change my perception of saying this glass half empty rather than I would say it is half full. Right. Unless you don't change that perception, you don't come into that state of meditation where you believe that everything is accepted and I'm liberated. Right. And hence you. And the last one is the. So sixth is dharana, that is, um, perception. Seventh is meditation, that is Dhyan. And the eighth is the state of samadhi. So samadhi is something where you are so blissful that all your decisions are taken in the direction of the welfareness of the product. And eventually if you consider yourself as the best product of your life, then you are doing it for your own self. And then you have that stable state of mind. Sometimes you take some radical decisions and then you realize, no, if I need to be blissful at my state of existence, I don't need to take radical decisions. I need to uh, consider all the parameters and then I finally take the decision. And that is called jiva mukta, samadhi. So jeev means living, Mukt means liberated. And samadhi is the state of happiness. So despite of living a regular life in the material world, how can you have that blissful state of mind? And that's what I'm talking about. Uh, and with that blissful state of mind, you create the good products.

Speaker B: Mhm. Do these different arms act as levels? Do you have to start at one and then work your way up or.

Speaker C: No, uh, it's, it's like a circle, I would say.

Speaker B: Um, yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, as, as we say right in the, in the product you have a pyramid. You don't start from the lower base, you start from the side, you know, so you take each of the slice all the way top.

Speaker D: Yeah, you slice through. And, and um, one thing, another thing that sounds similar to me to how we, we're talking about building products is you, you try again In a cyclical way, without experiencing it, you cannot really learn anything. So the only way, way to learn if your product is working is by releasing it and getting feedback and stuff like that. Similar to that, if you're not experiencing, um, this different, uh, type of, um, awareness, I guess, uh, about yourself, about the world around you and all that stuff, you cannot really get to the next level.

Speaker B: Right? Yep. Something that really resonates with me is the clarity aspect. So throughout your, your book and throughout your message, I see clarity keep coming up. Like you have to have clarity of mind internally to deal with the external forces. You know, there's a lot of chaos that can be had when building products. So having clarity of mind internally is like a key component of this. There's a quote that I found that creation becomes meaningful when the one who creates becomes clear. Yeah, that really stood out to me because I, you know, in my day to day there's a lot of things going on as a product manager and I, uh, think you were all trying to create great things, but like, you have to be clear of mind and focus in order to be really successful in creating great things. So that one really stood out to me.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: In fact, so, um, the way it is explained in the Yoga Sutra book, uh, it says that your clarity is always clouded by your perception of the reality.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: Okay. And you have five ways to understand that perception of reality. Okay. So the first. So you remember I was explaining you the chitta vritta nirodha. So chitta is our internal self. And the vritta, the perception of seeing the world, there are five ways to it. And the first one is, uh, when you have praman, when you have proof. Let's say I said you see a fire and you're like, okay, you know, because I saw the fire, I know there's a fire, right. Then there's viparya. That means, uh, um, the cognitive perception, you know. So the cognitive perception is you see smoke and then you think that there was a fire. You haven't seen a fire in real. Right. Then the third one is called, uh, um, praman, Vipari, vikalpa. So vikalpa is option. You have a mind, uh, in your mind you thought that there might be a fire somewhere over there. That means there's uh, a warehouse over there. Then there's something like this. Oh my God, my car is gone. You know, you made all the options in your mind, but actually you just saw smoke, you know. So that's the third one. Yeah, yeah. And then the fourth one Is uh, sometimes you're sleeping and when you're sleeping you uh, so according to the Vedanta, it said that in, in your sleep, in the, in your state of sleeping, your soul is actually traveling in the universe and the wavelength is matching with your thoughts and that's how you catch up the thoughts. So your thought is already existing out there in the universe and uh, you are just. Wavelength is capturing when you are sleeping. And in your sleep, uh, sleeping state of mind, you have the highest capacity of addressing those waves. Right? So uh, and then the, and the fifth one is called uh, pramana vipara vikalpan nidra smritaya. So the fifth one is uh, called um, memory. Sometimes you just come up with a solution out of your memory because you did something similar in past. Right? So these are the five ways through which you can just have a perception of a problem. And unless you don't know that if there was a real fire or I just saw the smoke, your perception of problem will not. So you need to this, you need to have this clarity of what type of problem is in front of me right now.

Speaker B: Right. This is where the observer, like the ah, observer role comes into it. Like I'm observing the smoke. I need to be, have clear mind in order to determine what that smoke is telling me.

Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So something in uh, those uh, I would say lines in terms of uh, clarity of creating the product. Because as a product owner, you know, as I said, you know, uh, in today's world, let's say the highest amount of money is directed towards the arms and ammunitions across the world, increasing 5% increase in GDP for European Union and whatever. But if the money is allocated towards that side and if the same amount of money, uh, in fact I did some research, the same amount of money is actually required to eradicate the poverty. So do we fight poverty or do we literally fight. Right, so uh, and as a product owner, uh, once you are allocated a budget, you decide that you know, with that budget what do you really want to do? You know, do you want to come up with an AI solution or do you want to come up where you don't kill any people or you just, you know, it all depends, uh, on uh. Well of course it's the architecture's answer every time when you ask a question to an architect and the answer is it depends. Right, so

Speaker D: the product manager. Right, Exactly.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: So that's um, a really great um, kind of like very high level, 50,000ft, uh, uh, description of what yoga is. And I appreciate that then when we go to a product manager and now that's where your book comes in. Um, where would the product manager start with that?

Speaker C: Well, uh, to make it feel easy, what I have done is I have divided my book into two parts. And in the first part I'm explaining the theoretical asp of this whole, uh, concept of bringing yoga and product management onto the same page. And in the second part of the book I am explaining how to adopt that perception of, uh, with those eight perceptions that I listed. Basically. Right. Because with each of those eight limbs there is a chapter dedicated to it. Like as I said, there's a chapter for clarity of perception. Then there's a chapter for ethical creation. You know, how ethical can you be to create your product? Or um, I would say the perception of creation over consumption. How much are you consuming rather than creating? Right. Uh, you wake up and you start with a toothpaste and a toothbrush. By the time you are out on the breakfast table, you have consumed maybe 20 products. But by the end of the day, did you create anything? Right. So these are few questions that I'm trying to ask the product manager that you know, if you are going through this path where you are uniting your soul and the body, are you uniting it to a level that you consider yourself as the best product? And if you are the best product, you will eventually create other products in that state of blissfulness where you're so happy that the personal problems will not impact in your professional journey.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker D: So working on ourselves first with the mindset of once we work on ourselves first as a product, we can build much better products for others as well.

Speaker C: Yeah. For example, um, I literally schedule retrospects for myself every two weeks. And um, personal retrospects about yourself as a product. Yeah, exactly. As a product. Um, when I got my dog, I created uh, a SANA board for her. I read that, you know, the dog can learn one new trick a week. So I ended up creating 52 tickets for her, you know, and then I was doing Sprint planning.

Speaker D: I love that. Wait, is all of her, all of her, uh, all of her tricks are yoga related tricks.

Speaker C: Downward dog, Upward dog. Well, yeah, those are default. So you know.

Speaker D: Yes, those are default. Yes. Well, my dog actually only knows downward dog. It doesn't.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Nice.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: So yeah, you know, these uh, these are few rituals that we should be adopting in our own personal day to day life. Like for example, retrospecting yourself every two weeks is something critical which we don't do to a Level that what went right, what went wrong, and what could go right. Right? And, uh, these few questions bring our radar back to am I actually enjoying this journey or I'm just walking towards the end, right? Because life is about enjoying the journey of living rather than, you know, you wait for the death and you wait for that retirement. With every breathe in, we are living, and with every breathe out, we are dying. And unless we don't have that perception of life and death is right here, right now, we won't be able to create something, uh, which will leave the legacy after we are gone. Right? And as a product creator, as a product owner, all you need to do is create something which is not for you, because you're going to leave the company or you're going to leave whatever it is or even the world. Every great person who has been alive is going to die. But what they leave behind is the legacy, right? Are we to that state where we leave a legacy of someone like Buddha that people have? I remember I went to India on my 20, 21 travel, and I went to some caves. Uh, There are like 36 caves built in a horseshoe shape in Ajanta Ellora. And to a level, that, uh, first cave was the birth of Buddha and last cave was the death of Buddha. And those 36 caves were discovered after 1800 years by a British guy, uh, who was chasing a lion or a tiger, you know, to hunt. So someone who left such a huge legacy, then some people created caves for him. And then the caves were lost for 1500 years. And still when they came back, people like, oh, that's Buddha. I know him, you know, so with a history of two, 3,000 years, people are still following what he said because he left the legacy. He created a product, you know, of how, uh, to look yourself as. And that's what he worked on, right? Just create the best product out of yourself, you know, you become Buddha, you know, and Buddha itself means intelligence. So you, you reach that state of intelligence where you are blissful.

Speaker B: I like that a lot. Yeah. I think about this podcast. This is obviously a product that Moshe and I have worked on for almost five years now. So, you know, I think about that with my mother, my daughter, listening to this, you know, this episode, you know, 10, 20 years from now, be like, oh, that's your grandfather on a podcast. So. But I love to think about it. Yeah, hopefully Spotify and all that still exists in, uh, 20 years. Um, but, you know, I think about that living intentionally. And when you build a product, do it intentionally. Think about all the different decisions you're making. And I think about this in terms of leadership as well. If you work on yourself and you work on your intra clarity, you know, you want to lead and lead your team with clarity as well, because they're all looking for answers. You know, your team is looking for answers and looking for guidance and looking for support. If you don't have clarity, uh, in yourself and your decisions, how is anybody else going to have that in you?

Speaker D: And another thing that it kind of made me think, after all this discussion is what actually makes what? Or. I don't know, I'm not saying it right, but is it the. Like we started the episode, the ancient wisdom, help us be better product managers or knowing and doing product management well, help us understand more what does it mean to be a yogi or understand ourselves better. And maybe it doesn't really matter which one is which, right?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's more of, you know, uh, that's the reason I'm bringing the product and ashtangi together in the same title where, uh, it's half and half. It's like yin and yang, you know, because, um, if you consider yourself to be worked upon something and you have that observer experience or point of view, right? So every time when you're observing your actions, you determine that if it was my employee who would have done this, would I fire him or would I keep him? You know, so, uh, because you owe your actions, right? And when you owe your actions, you understand that maybe at that particular situation it might be a right action. But now with my right knowledge, with my right understanding of the proper problem, I understand that the solution may require action Y or action Z rather than action X, right? So knowledge is the key over here. Whenever we are in the state of, I, uh, would say lamentation, or we are in the state of, um, anxiousness, the right solution is knowledge. You, you explore, you research, you determine, uh, and then you figure out what are the options. And then based on the options you provided to your architect, I'm like, here's my technical team, here's the product guy, uh, who has given four options. Pick whatever works best right now, right? And then you back it with the success metrics.

Speaker D: Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Now from your experience, you know, with all your knowledge that you have about this, um, is this something that is easier to do on your own or, or what I'm leading towards is that product management is very much in context of the people you're working with. There is a lot of stakeholder management Many times they are um, quite uh, different in styles and personalities and it's hard to manage them and to set their expectations. And that's where I'm thinking in the back of my mind that there is also psychological uh, issues personally and with the people we are dealing with. And this is where empathy is important to understand how they work, what's important for them, etc. Yeah, but yoga seems to me a bit more of a personal journey versus um, a team journey or um, interaction with other journey. But I might be completely wrong about that.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, um, if, if I have to, if I have to put the uh, these concepts together basically. So yoga is always in fact for the social welfare. The minute you zoom in and you try to find the personal solution out of it, that is where the exercise aspect uh, comes into this picture. But when you zoom out, when you're uniting your soul and the body, you're uniting it for the action that is useful for the welfare of the society. If you are doing the action only for your personal use, then it is not karma yoga, you know, it is only karma. So karma is an action, but the Karma yoga is something when you're uniting your soul and body for the betterment of the society. Right. So every time if. And betterment of the society itself means solving a pain point, basically. Right. Yeah, that's, that's how I'll, I'll try to put it. In fact, I had some other concept in my mind as well. But uh, I kind of.

Speaker D: No, but that makes, that uh. Does answer my question. It makes a lot of sense and just shows my limit understanding of this.

Speaker C: Oh no, no. Uh, yeah, that's the reason I tried to uh, put it into words for a very long time. I had all these concepts in my mind. In fact for good five years, uh, I was just making notes about what I want to um, uh, what I want to publish. And then finally in the last one year I compiled it to a level that I could make sense of it. In fact, in 2021 when I decided to travel to Rishikesh at that time, I had in my mind that I want to write a book where I can bring both of these concepts together. But I had no idea that this is how they will be eventually sinking in, you know. But more I researched and more I read and uh, that's how you see basically. Yeah, it's, it's more of when you. There's a, there's a, there's a saying in um, Urdu, but I will not say it in Urdu. I'm trying to translate it, but it says that if you try something very hard, the universe will conspire to bring it to you. Right. And that's what Alchemist book also talks about. The universe conspired to bring this book together and compiled into pages. I was just a tool. I was. This would have come regardless if not me, someone would have written it. And that's the concept we always, as a product manager, we should be having as well, you know, that we are just a tool of this planet to come up with a product that was supposed to come into existence as such, you know. But if we take the ownership of it to a level that I am the one who because of me everything happened, then we are feeding the ego, you know, Then we are not feeding the buddhi, the Buddha into us. Right. Buddha says keep the ego aside, just work with intelligence. Mhm.

Speaker B: If you want something bad enough, you can make anything possible.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: Because it already exists. It already exists in the universe. Yeah.

Speaker C: Universe is going to conspire to make it happen. All you got to do is just work towards it.

Speaker D: So I wonder if the universe is conspired to work towards a solution that will come together or also different type of products that don't solve anything. And because we know that most products are like that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Well, you know, the only destiny you are destined to is to write your own destiny, you know, so you universe will conspire to make you knowledgeable enough to take the right decisions that you come up with a solution. The universe will not conspire for the solution.

Speaker D: Really interesting. Really interesting. Uh, lots of, lots to think about for sure.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: And I'm sure this is a lifelong, uh, learning and, and um, I appreciate that, you know, you, you put that book together because that really make it accessible to, to us, you know, from that uh, ancient wisdom through you. I don't think I have any other questions. What about you, Matt?

Speaker B: One on one, I like to ask a lot is, you know, if there's one, one takeaway that you could take into work tomorrow. If you're listening to this episode, like what's one takeaway? Like I'm thinking about the next meeting you're in, the next call you're in. Just going with a clear mind, going with a clear, clear slate, no perceived assumptions. Just go in and listen and observe. You know, act accordingly. But you know, I'd love to hear like what's one thing you could really work on tomorrow if you hear this episode?

Speaker C: Yeah. Act. Act as a student of life and everything is you know, act as dumb as you can when you ask questions, but act as smart as possible when you're acting.

Speaker B: I like that a lot.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Lots of good quotes.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Excellent.

Speaker D: Where can people reach out to you if they want to, um, get in touch with you?

Speaker C: Oh, I can share my website and I already have my. LinkedIn is my most active, I would say. Uh, but I can share uh, my website and my details. So my website is pretty much my first name, last name Ca.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker C: So yeah, yeah, you can purchase my book from there. It's available on Amazon as well.

Speaker D: We will share uh, this in the uh, um, episodes notes so people can reach out to you. And um, you know, I, I didn't mention in the beginning, but you did mention you're from British Columbia in Canada, right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I live in Chilliwack. Uh, it's a beautiful little town, uh, off the Fraser Valley.

Speaker D: Amazing.

Speaker B: Another one of our Canadian friends.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker C: You guys are located in East, I believe, right?

Speaker D: Uh, we're in Eastern.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker D: But uh, Matt is American, I'm Canadian, so it's all about like, you know, who are we going to bring next to that?

Speaker C: Yes, I did, uh, I did spend five years in Toronto and one year in New York. And um, yeah, when I, when I drove to west, I, I tell people that I was like a dog looking outside the window. The Rocky Mountains are so beautiful. And I, I felt like I did my time in five years in east, you know, it was so cold. The minute I got the opportunity, I just hop on my car and I started driving west. Up until I crossed Saskatchewan, I did not even know where I'm staying in west, you know, like, let me just start driving first, you know.

Speaker B: Well, this has been great, Babish. Thank you so much for coming on. This has been really eye opening. Uh, I love the message of your book and I love how you connect the dots and connect it up with the product management. It's really, really quite inspiring. So there's a lot to take away here, so really hope all the listeners enjoy it. Moshe, thank you as always. It's a pleasure. Thank you to all the listeners and we'll talk to everybody next time.

Speaker D: Thank you.

Speaker C: Thanks a lot for inviting me. I really appreciate it.

Speaker D: Our um, pleasure.

Speaker B: Thank you to all the listeners. We really appreciate the feedback and support. Please leave us a review to help others find the show on Apple or Spotify or anywhere else you're listening to the show.

Speaker D: It.