Finding the Right Boss: Why Your Next Boss Might Matter More Than Your Next Product

Speaker A: M. Welcome to Practical Product Management. It's a podcast all about how product management is done in context. Theory is great, but it doesn't get it all done. So what are we going to talk about today, Marilyn?

Speaker B: So, Leah, today I would really like to explore podcast voices with you.

Speaker A: I think that's a great idea, Marilyn. Let's talk about podcast voices.

Speaker B: So I've been listening to a lot of podcasts, and I've noticed that people put on this really sort of soothing voice to make themselves sound smarter and more intelligent. And I'm just wondering if we should try that for this episode.

Speaker A: We could certainly try. The problem is my voice is neither soothing nor opponent. Makes me sound more intelligent.

Speaker B: Uh, I had to do it. I had to do it. I have been listening to podcasts lately. Um, I've been getting really into, like, educating myself, and there's like, I'm just hearing all of these people with these annoyingly soothing voices, and I just want to punch somebody.

Speaker A: You're like, uh, is that your real voice? It's not.

Speaker B: I want to hear you at the supermarket being like, are these eggs really $7? But in your podcast voice, I would

Speaker A: like to buy eggs. But what's important is what is the quality of the eggs and how much do they cost?

Speaker B: Are they local? Did this chicken have a good life? Did he have friends? Did this chicken have friends?

Speaker A: It's like the, you know, the early, early 2000s, when I, you know, how I felt about vocal fry.

Speaker B: Vocal fry. Everybody sounded like they were on the Kardashians.

Speaker A: We, ah, had someone on the team where we were working together who was like, today we're gonna talk about strategy. And I was always like, oh, please don't talk about strategy.

Speaker B: The worst part is, is after you sit in a meeting with someone like that, you almost find yourself doing the same thing. And then you're like, oh, like, oh, my God. I think one of my favorite things about this conversation with you, Leah, is that, um, we're not. We're not that.

Speaker A: No, we're.

Speaker B: We're talking about work that we've done in our real voices, with our real scars and with our real bruises. And it's not perfection or polished or, you know, sanded down or lacquered. Uh, this is reality in a really sort of earthy, like. Like, humble way.

Speaker A: Yeah. No. Where you can. You can catch us in any episode laughing, giggling, maybe crying or being like, oh, my God, that's so frustrating. Things that we remember and talk about.

Speaker B: Okay, no podcast voices.

Speaker A: No podcast voices. Okay. So what we really want to talk about today is. I think. So let me back up. I think it's uh, obviously the beginning of the year is when lots of people are out looking for jobs. And in this market, lots of people are looking. And when product managers go out to look, I think one of the most important things they can do is find their next boss.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What do you think?

Speaker B: The I 100% agree. I think that the two most important, like human factors in your success at a company is your boss and your boss's boss. If those two things line up for you, then, um, it's pretty much yours to win or lose.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. So let's talk about like when you are looking for a great next boss. What are the. Some of the things that you need to consider? What comes to your mind first?

Speaker B: So we're going to set to the side like challenge and company and all of those things. Right. We're going to assume those are separate conversations.

Speaker A: I think a lot of product managers think about like the title and the product and the industry and how well it's doing and funding and all of that.

Speaker B: Cool.

Speaker A: But this is the boss. How do you pick the boss?

Speaker B: Yeah, so this is, I mean, I think there's some critical choices here. Um, first and foremost, uh, uh, when I find, when I, when I'm looking for someone, um, I want to find someone that I can learn from. And that means two things. Do they have skills or do don't. Do they know things that I do not?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And are they willing to share those with me? Not in a like color. Inside the lines. 1, 2, 3, 4.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: But explain the why and the how behind so that I can adapt that to my own working style.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100 agree with that. I think there's such an important, there's a real importance there around, um, you know, is a person actually willing to let you in, show you what they, what they know, um, and not be threatened in any way. Um, and be excited about how you'll do it. Whatever they, they teach you something and then go now make it yours? Right. And, and can they, can they let you do that? Right? Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. That, ah, that lack of ego. Right. So can you find a leader that's actually, that actually has knowledge, that is brilliant, but also has a. Like they're humble m enough to understand that their, their way of doing things is not the only way. Like goes back to our whole uh, thesis of this podcast is that like, you know, the, the thing that's published online, the one chart, the one way of doing things that aren't the only way of doing things. It's a way so can they impart their wisdom on you so, so that you can adapt that to your own way.

Speaker A: Uh, and I think that's an interesting thing. As you, as your career goes on, if you stay in product long enough, you'll, you know, as you move up into other roles, you'll find yourself going, okay, what is it I want to learn next and who am I going to learn from? Because I know a lot about product. Right. Well, so what you then get to do is go, what don't I know a lot about? Like, do I, do I want to work for this CEO or this VP who's worked closer to marketing or finance, or they have really kick ass EQ or they're really, really good at whatever public speaking or whatever it is that you need some, some, you know, space on. Um, so it doesn't, it doesn't even as you grow your career, it doesn't mean like, I'm only learning product basics. Yeah, it's really like what do I need to learn?

Speaker B: You know, a hundred percent. And I actually, I mean I, I think that's, that's a really good call out because, um, finding that again, the organization, not just the direct leader, but the, the boss and the boss's boss, that will let you explore knowledge. Um, you know, is it strategy or is it, is it finance? All of those things are really critical to, to like being a great product leader. You cannot just look at product and be like, I know, I know everything about this one tiny little thing, but I know nothing about how finance works or acquisition or um. Yeah, so do, do we cross train?

Speaker A: Yeah. I worked for a founder at a startup in Berlin who was a marketing guy. He had sold his first startup to Airbn. He was my boss. He was 10, maybe more. 10 years younger than me, at least. Probably more actually. Um, now that I'm saying that he's probably like 12 years younger than me. Um, but I learned so much about marketing from him, right? Because I knew the basics. I'd taken marketing and in undergrad and when I got my MBA and I knew the basics of marketing, but we really started to piece together what is growth product management and where does marketing, the line of marketing end and where does product pick up? We really started to really talk about that and wrestle with it and I learned a ton about, you know, conversion funnels and you know, how these, how does all this data work and what are the metrics? You, you know, I Just hadn't done that before. And so it was super fun for me. And I mean, it was a case where I was actually learning from someone significantly younger than me with less, like, of the kind of experience I have, but different experience than me. And so, yeah, he didn't teach me product. Right. But he taught me about the business a lot. You know, So I think there are, there are really, if you look for them, there are really good opportunities there.

Speaker B: I love that. Um, and I love, I think that also leads into like, uh, communication in general, but not just like, can they write a great press release or are they in the news, but, like, can you communicate with them? Can the barriers come down to the point where you can have a real conversation about hard things? Because you are going to disagree. Yeah, potentially. Because you don't have the same point of view. And can you unpack that to the point where you can unlock new ideas and that, that intersect between marketing, especially like growth and acquisition, marketing and product, um, are. They're so intertwined. When you think about, like, um, you know, uh, shoot, I was, I was, I was reading this thing about virality and like, great, your thing went viral. But is it really good for your product? In a lot of cases it's not.

Speaker A: Right. Right.

Speaker B: Um, and if you separate these sort of practices, then, you know, the viral marketers, like, well, I got you 10 million new, like, subscribers. Like, I get a bonus. But they, they like, pound your surveys and like, decay your customer base and no one cares. Um, and then you start chasing these weird spikes. But, but can you communicate with someone in a way where there's the lack of defensiveness, um, and that natural curiosity?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, and to your point, like, just because there's a seniority difference in that moment at a company, can you set that aside and have a really good conversation?

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, because sometimes there's going to be moments where you have to know that the person you're working for has, like, their ego is in the right spot. Right. They can handle the challenge that you may bring. And believe me, I always bring one. Right. It's my personality. I know they can handle the challenge you bring, but they can also handle when the team likes you more than them.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Because sometimes you come in and are the, you know, the product guru, and everybody on the team's like, I like that person. Right. And the CEO takes a little bit of a, like, adoration hit. And if they have their ego in the right spot, they handle it and they're just like, she makes me look better.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Same thing for me when I'm hiring somebody I don't like. Listen, I'm going to have people on my team who people are going to like more than me because sometimes I'm the bad guy.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And I, uh. But I love that as, uh, when I find somebody who can let me be myself and is not. They're not. There's no threat.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually think that's a really nuanced one. Um, because the. The person that you want to work for, the next boss you want to find, actually wants to elevate you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, as. As the expert, as the human. Um, not because, you know, they want to, like, put you on a pedestal and make you the, like, mascot of the company or anything, but because you have skills that are making the company better. Yes. Um, and you want to look for people that do that for their employees rather than them having to be the one that knows everything or is like, I did all of these things, or taking credit for other people's work because they're the boss.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, there's a learning mindset in there. Right. So someone who's always a learner. I want to work for someone who's also got something to learn. Right. And so that is always like, oh, I read this. Did you see this? Has. What's. You know, what do you think about that? You know, this learning mindset can be a really huge part of the person I work for. Um, because I'm always going to be doing that. So I want someone who's doing the same. Because if they're not in that learning mindset, they're likely more fixed.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And if they have very fixed mindset, you're probably going to argue and wrestle about the same things over and over again and have a hard time moving. Right.

Speaker B: Making.

Speaker A: Making progress.

Speaker B: Yeah. I actually think that's a real. That's a really good point. And that becomes a little more difficult as you move up because, um, founders and C Suite people have to know. They feel like they have to know. They clearly haven't done enough Brene Brown. And they feel like they have to know, and they feel like they have to be right and they have to feel like their ways the highway. And that's not saying, hey, listen, we're on it. We're on a journey to that destination over there. Um, I don't know how many left turns we're going to take or how many right turns we're going to take. And as a collective, we're better and we don't have to know the whole way today. We just need to keep our eye on the North Star. Um, as you get, as your boss gets more senior, um, those, those attributes tend to, like, fade away sometimes. And these, these very fancy people feel like they have to, like, stand up on stage at a conference and know everything and know all the things. Yeah. They can never seem to be taking other people's perspective.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, or wrestling with multiple perspectives to come out with a collectively better answer. Uh, I think that's a really good, like, attribute to look for in your next boss is like, can you value perspective?

Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. And I think one of the ways that I, I, uh, thinking as you were talking, I was thinking, like, how did I. How do I find that out? Right. Like, when I'm looking for it, how do. But one of the ways I think I have found that over the years, I think maybe since Amazon forward, I think most of that comes out in a, uh, if you go to a meal with the person who's hiring you.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And you ask and you start, you start having a little bit more personal conversation, not just like, what is the job you're going to do and what am I, what do expect and what's a win look like? And all the standard questions you might have already had in an, uh, interview. But I remember going to lunch with Dennis. Right. Or going to. I went to dinner with my boss at Klarna and a few other people, and I got to say things like, what do you guys do in your free time? And I got to hear like, well, I've started swimming, you know, doing these 100 mile swims. And I'm learning how my body does X and Y. And I'm like, okay, this is a person who's always trying to be better and try to figure things out, you know, And I got to learn, like, what they like to learn. And. But, uh, I think that happens a little more naturally over dinner than does in an interview where you're like, what do you do in your free time, sir? Right.

Speaker B: Well, then people perceive those as like, throwaway questions. And then like, you're not serious or. Because you're just like, hey, what do you do? I like, I garden.

Speaker A: Yeah, okay. Right. But, yeah, but I think there's. I think I've learned a lot by grabbing a cup of coffee or, you know, going to dinner or having a lunch and just getting to sort of poke at, like, tell me about your family and what do you do for fun and, and you learn who this person is. Outside, if they are still very stiff and don't show anything and can't give anything away, you know, they're a human at home somewhere. Right. But if they won't give you anything sometimes, probably, uh, you know, they're, they're gonna be like that all the time.

Speaker B: Yeah. There's a, there's a few people.

Speaker A: You're a low threat, low risk situation. Why would they not lose, drop their guard a bit? Right.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, no, I love that. Um, I, I, I've run across a few people in my, in my life. Um, and I, you know, I know it's like, listen, let's just be super honest. Most of us in tech are on some sort of spectrum somewhere. We're all a little like tweaked in the head. I have run across people that are so focused.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, to the point where they're, they're not human very much anymore and they've micro optimized their life to such a point that they don't understand why you're not there too. Right. Um, so I love that learn, like, I love that learning aspect. But, um, but I, I would. Now I don't even know. Now I'm going to ask you a question because this is something that I want to know. Like, how do I understand that, um, that, that they are inclusive and they respect everybody where they are on their learning journey. And just because you haven't hacked your body so that you know exactly what 2 grams of carbohydrate. Ah. Does to your blood sugar, um, at 2:00am um, that, that you're, you're still valuable or you still have.

Speaker A: It's a really good question. One of the questions my favorite interview question now is, and I've asked this for the last several companies I've been to, what's gonna, what's it gonna look like when we have a fight?

Speaker B: Oh, uh, what kind of answers do you get to that?

Speaker A: What is, what is interesting is the person who's like, I mean, I had a guy that was like, why would we fight? And I was like, oh God.

Speaker B: Because we're gonna disagree.

Speaker A: I was like, what? Uh, okay, maybe I should tell you more about me first. Right. Like, you know, uh, okay, let lose the word fight if that's the uncomfortable. What's it gonna like when we just disagree?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, and then I listen for, you know, and so sometimes if they can't get there, I'll say, well, when. Who's the last person you disagreed with about something at work?

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker A: Usually that's something their Little hamster runs. And then their eyes go, oh, yeah. And you're like, tell me, come on. Right. And they usually then begin to try to unpack what it's going to look like and who, how they make decisions. What does the racy in their brain look like? Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Where will a decision stop with me or escalate to them? Right. And I. I've had answers I liked and I've had answers I didn't like. Right. I, um, met with co founders once and asked the question, and one of the guys was like, why would we fight? And then I said, okay, scratch that. What happens when the two of you fight? And that was a totally different reaction.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker A: Um, well. Right. I was like, yeah, I want to know. Yeah, I want to know what happens. I said, because I'm going to be wrong and so are you. We're going to fight and we're going to agree. There's going to be wins and losses. We're going to fail together. We're going to succeed together. So we. I want to know now if it's going to be safe or if I can expect it to be really, really prickly and painful.

Speaker B: Yeah. I guess that gives you really good insight into whether they're open to. To learning, uh, a different perspective or whether it's just their way or the highway.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Which I think would be a really, um. Even if you were fully aligned, you don't want to work for someone like that.

Speaker A: No, exactly. Exactly. And so I think it's always interesting because there I've had answers where the person really didn't know what to say. And then I've had people walk me through their conflict management style. Like, yeah, sometimes I, you know, I. I have lost my temper a few times, but mostly I like to sit down and rationalize what, you know, what's your logical thing? What's my logical thing? Where do we agree? Where do we disagree? You know, and so they'll walk through how they process that. Wrestling. Right. And usually I'm like, cool. Because I can work with almost anything.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Except we're never going to argue.

Speaker B: Yeah. Except for if it comes down to it, it's my way. And. And, uh, you. You can balance. Yeah. You're only heading for the same conclusion.

Speaker A: Yeah. I told the CEO that I work for now yesterday. Remember when I told you that sometimes I was going to lose my temper? He was like. I was like, that's what that was like. And it's not that big a deal. It's not. I'm not rude I'm not. I don't scream. But I got frustrated and I said I was frustrated. Right. And he's like, yeah, I get that. He's like, now I've seen it. And I was like, yeah, that's about. That's the worst of it, you know, but we had already had that conversation.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And so that's the other thing I'll say is that often I answer that question like, what's one of your. What's one of your worst characteristics? I tell the truth when I. When that question is asked of me because I want them to choose to hire me or not based on what I say.

Speaker B: Well, I think you want people that want to look out for you and that. That will bring me to, like, sort of the next thing I look for as a bus is, is like, we all have strength and weaknesses. Like, for example, I might be a little impatient.

Speaker A: What?

Speaker B: Um, and I, I think it's great to let people know, like, hey, I'm. I am not very patient. Like, I'm very future oriented. I like things to happen fast. I'm so super impatient. And sometimes I'm going to get frustrated because I don't feel like we're moving fast enough. And I either want people to say, cool when I see it, I'm going to help you move things along.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, um. Or I got your back. And when you're pushing too hard, I'm. I'm going to. In private. Right. Not in public.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Have a conversation with you about how this could be impacting others. Not that you're wrong.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Not that you're wrong. Never tell me my innate attributes are wrong, because that's like. That's just like.

Speaker A: Those are fighting words. Right.

Speaker B: You're not going to change me into someone else?

Speaker A: No, not, uh, certainly not.

Speaker B: But you can help me understand how some of my, um, attributes may be impacting things on people in a way that doesn't get me what I want. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, I like.

Speaker A: True. I love that.

Speaker B: Coach in private.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Praise in public. Coach in private.

Speaker A: Yeah. We. I had a boss that I, um, was a. He loved to coach, loved to coach. And sometimes he would coach me in moments that were not coachable. I am not coachable. I mean, you know this person. So I would. I literally would say, this is not a coachable moment. I want an answer.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And he would be like, okay. And I would. And he would say, could I, uh, coach you on this later? Yep. Put it on your list.

Speaker B: Or no.

Speaker A: Right. But not right now.

Speaker B: I don't Think that coaching all the time is helpful?

Speaker A: No. No.

Speaker B: I don't think constant coaching.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Is helpful. It just kills people's, uh, egos and, and drive and makes them feel wrong and.

Speaker A: Well, and that it goes back to a conversation we had a long time ago, last season about leadership styles. And the coaching leadership style should not be used all the time. You use it on certain employees at certain maturities who can handle it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Everyone else needs you to be in it with them and be more transformative or more communicative or whatever other style. Right. But coaching as a leadership style is annoying as hell if you're. If what you need is pace.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Don't ask me another damn question. Give me an answer. Um, so as a coach, I know that as a leader, I cannot coach everybody.

Speaker B: Yes. How do they want it?

Speaker A: Answers. I will give answers. Right. Or feedback or whatever.

Speaker B: Is understanding your own leadership style and then asking questions about your new boss's leadership style. That seems like it would be super helpful for finding another leader.

Speaker A: I mean, it's something really important to me. So there are, there are different varying schools, but there are 12 leadership styles, right? 12 kind of documented leadership styles. And I would say that on average most of us have three that we use all the time that we just go to. There are. Go to leadership styles. And I think if we know which ones are ours and we ask, you know, say these are one, these are ones that are mine, what are yours? And the person can give you. And uh, even if they don't know them, they can tell you their leadership style and you can usually fit it in somewhere. You're gonna know if someone's like, I like to say things and have them done well. Okay, you're not a crat. And that's not gonna go well.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And. Or whatever. Right. Or I like to coach or I like. It's like, okay, well, these are the three things I like to do. And we're a little off center, but maybe we could get around this one together.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I, I have, I have cheated on these. Um, and both when I've had like done these things, you know, where like you do the thing and you get the assessment. You get the 12 page PDF. Um, I have taken mine and my bosses and put them in chat GPT and just said, what are the problems these people are going to have together and how should they approach them? And I've also just done like describing briefly like, um, and I. It's come up with some really interesting watches.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, but I love this notion of being, uh, very, uh, uh, like knowing who you are and then what are the styles that you're going to work well with or not 100%.

Speaker A: I think the same thing can be said for values. Like what, what are your values, what are the company's values and what are that person's values? Because they're not always the same. We all have the same set of values. It would be weird. Right. But if I have the value of curiosity and the company always wants to be. Right.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Like, okay. Like that's fine. Or this person doesn't have that, you know, they have a different set of values. I think it can be interesting to have that conversation as well. Like I really value connection and that means I'm willing to go in hard to figure things out together so we can stay connected. Uh, okay. I don't. What does that look like?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And so. And you can. The thing is, you're looking for. These are not going to be things when you ask a question that you're going to get some direct answer. Yes. I like that value. It's also one of mine. It's. You're looking for data.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What feels right, what feels like, ooh, that makes me feel itchy. What could I live with? What can I not live with?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So I think when you're looking, that's part of. Part of what you're looking for.

Speaker B: It's funny, the, um, I've run across a couple of companies that will do personality assessments as part of the application. Um, which is great because they're trying to see if you're going to fit on some sort of like, intrinsic level. But what they don't ever do is feed it back to you as the applicant and then tell you where you fit in the team. Like that's all super secret. Um, but I actually think those are tools you kind of need as someone entering an organization or starting to work for someone else.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, to just kind of say like exactly like what you're saying. Like, how do you deal with these things? Uh, you know, who are you when you're on your best day?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And who are you? How do you show up when you're on your worst day?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, because I think people just kind of show up as their worst selves sometimes and you're just like, that person's a.

Speaker A: Right now.

Speaker B: You don't ever think like, oh, there must be under stress and they've got these other conditions in it. Let me, let me figure out how like you're. You react out of fear. Uh, or you just think they're a dick.

Speaker A: Right. Exactly. And they might be or they might not be. Right. And you just be getting them there on their Maryland's being impatient day. Yeah. Right.

Speaker B: I mean, like, listen, I was super honest with you. There have been times you were in the room for one of them where I've thrown a whiteboard marker across the room into a garbage can because I was so mad. Um, and there have been times when I've had to, like, step out of it. Pretty decently sized meeting with my team and just say, I cannot be in this room with you guys for a moment longer. I'm gonna go take a walk. I'll be back.

Speaker A: Back. Yep. Yep. M. Same. Yeah. No, I've done the same. And I, you know, and that I. And I think that's, uh, that's. It's okay. It's part of who you are. Can you find a leader that will work with that and be like, cool, we'll figure it out and I'll. I'll help you. I'll champion you and I'll challenge you on it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And also, I'm not going to tell you you're wrong or toxic or horrible. I'm just going to say I understand this is how you show up as a human.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because that person also has their bat. Their worst day.

Speaker A: Right. No. 100. And I think, you know, I. I always describe it as. I sort of have a steam valve. Right. And it builds and builds and builds and it's really builds for a long time. I'm pretty chill. And then eventually it's like, you have to release the steam valve so I can go. And I'm like, okay. I'm okay again. Right. That, uh, steam building up, there's so much pressure in there that eventually when I blow the steam off, it comes out sometimes a little like, listen, it's not like, hey, everybody, let me use my podcast voice again. It's here.

Speaker B: We're here to talk about stress and pressure.

Speaker A: I don't ever sound like that.

Speaker B: I also think it would be nice to have a boss that understood who you were to the point where they could, like, catch you or not catch. I don't like, listen, nobody needs to be coddled like a baby. Um, no, they can help you take a break or. Right. They can. They can give you enough air cover so that you don't have to get to the steam release.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. 100.

Speaker B: Um. But every company. There's not one company that I've ever worked for. That's like, take as much time as you want this out. We have all the money. There's no pressure. We don't care about revenue. Listen, every role has a significant amount of pressure. We are investing corporate capital to get an outcome. And sometimes it's not enough to keep this like the trajectory or if you're a small company, make payroll. There is pressure there. Um, and, and so you cannot pretend that it's not going to build up.

Speaker A: Yeah. 100%. 100%. No, I totally agree with that. Um, Hunter. Yeah. I think that, and somebody that can do that in a way that allows you to still be yourself. Yes. Right. Like, um, and that they, they actually, like, I want somebody who I have respect for, that I can have fun with, that I can admire, who feels the same way about me.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Like, because this is who I am. And I'm going to give you, I mean, when I give you my best, you're getting bang up work just like when I, I know what people get when they get you. Right. I know. And so I, I. And so if you get that from me, like, be kind to me, like, you know, and spend some time understanding how I work. So I want somebody who understands that investment that they're. You're gonna get your money's worth, I promise. Empathy.

Speaker B: Right? Empathy. I. And, and like, let's, let's use a, ah, let's use the, like, the like. No, no word. Uh, like that builds inclusive teams. I want someone that, that acknowledges each human as an individual, appreciates them for their differences as well as their strengths, and fosters that inclusivity in a way that, like, that, that allows like you and I, as peers and teammates to make connections with each other. And I think there's too many bosses, um, that, uh, develop relationships with their people, but not the relationships between the team members themselves. And that just creates people that like, go cry to daddy.

Speaker A: Yeah, right? Yeah. Okay. You're gonna tell on me.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Right. Instead of just having a, instead of sitting next to me and being like, wow, you were a. You threw that pen in the Z. You're gonna go tell daddy. Like a baby.

Speaker A: Should have seen what Marilyn did in that meeting.

Speaker B: Yeah, she's a cow. That girl can't do anything right.

Speaker A: No, none of, I don't think any of us told on you. We were all like, no, but I

Speaker B: have worked in organizations before where that, like that toxicity, like you can't have a real conversation in a room. And then, and then the company will be like, well, we, we love Real conversations. And it's like, you don't.

Speaker A: You do not.

Speaker B: Because you don't want anybody to fight.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, which creates this whole backstabby back channel. Everybody wants to be daddy's favorite. Like, it's gross. No one wants that.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I, you know, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. I remember being in rooms where I just knew that some. If somebody started in on me, my boss was absolutely, um, not going to get my back. Yeah. Leave me hanging to take whatever hit I was gonna get from a couple people. Right. And then I. But I. He also knew that the room favored me and that everybody else might come to my rescue. So sometimes he would sort of try to step in, um, because he knew we were all gonna band together. So it's like, dude, your team isn't working. You might be the problem.

Speaker B: Well, it's because they don't, like, like, don't have those conversations. I, uh, like, I truly think it's so toxic when a boss will allow team members to bitch to them about each other.

Speaker A: Yes. Without saying, have you had this conversation? You know, I can help facilitate it, but I'm not going to have it for you. Right. So, but if you, you need to have this conversation. And it's, it's so, uh, but. And I think it goes back to the magic word of success at Amazon that I tell anybody who ever asks me, how do you succeed at Amazon, you need a champion or an advocate.

Speaker B: Yep. Again, your boss and your boss's boss are the two most important people in your career progression.

Speaker A: 100%. So the last thing I would say on this from my perspective is, you know, and I wonder what you think, because it does depend on the job. Um, I think for me, for instance, working in startups, it has mattered what the person thinks about product management, even if they don't have the skill of product management. Um, so I'll just say that, like, what do they think the job is? What do they expect of it? What do they think, what magic can I deliver? What do they think strategy is and where does it sit? Um, these kind of component pieces for your boss and boss's boss. Like, what do they think of that? And like, for me, sometimes I'm going to work for the CEO, so it matters what the board thinks.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, the board think my job is, am I here to run this team or am I here to build strategy? Like, what is. Is it both? Like, what is the job? Right. So I think that's something I would also say as A product manager under. When you're taking a product job, working for the VP of product or a cpo, understand what they think product management is. Yeah. Because product management is done in context.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And people have varying degrees of actual product management skill.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Depending on the company. And so not everyone you walk in to work for has gonna have done the job necessarily or have done it the same way you have. So I think there's an. I think there's an important thing there. What do you think of that?

Speaker B: I love it. And I think it sort of comes back to like. But not like, can you communicate better the, the vision of this role from, uh, from an. Like, from an outcome perspective. But then from a. Like. Like, what does it look like in practice and what is it not?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because I can tell you what I think it is and where the boundaries are. Um, and if you don't have those same ideas and. Or practices. Um, that's where the, that's where the frustration comes in. I will go back to an IC level just for a second. Um, imagine that, you know, you're squeaky clean. You just got out of whatever. It's your second job. The first job you had was like, under some leader that thought, like, you got to talk to customers and you got to move fast and you got to experiment and you're going to test and learn and you're doing all of these rapid experiments to test psychology. And then you interview for a job where the product managers don't talk to customers and you build a feature because someone else asked you to, but you don't understand the output or the outcome and you don't know what business metric you're. You're. You're changing at the end of it. And you're going to walk into this building with all of these great skills and all of these great ideas and you are going to piss everybody off because your fundamental understanding of the job is different.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And so what does the role look like? Like, where are the boundaries? What if my understanding is X, Y and Z? Uh, what happens when I piss off? Marketing.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or how does. In. What does engineering think my job is?

Speaker B: Yes. Just writing user stories and shutting them

Speaker A: and give them their work. Answer their questions. Am I part of the team?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, I love that. And I think, I think when you're interviewing someone for a product job, that's something you should sort of poke at. Like, what do you think? What do you think product management is? But the person interviewing for the job, the candidate should also be Asking this, like, this is a question they should be asking, like, what do you, what do you, how do you do the job here? And I think one of the simplest ways to get there is if I take this job, what will I own?

Speaker B: Yes. What are, what, uh, do I, what can I decide?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And where do I have co decision rights? Right. Like, yeah, again, what if I don't want to build that feature? What if I think it's wrong?

Speaker A: Yeah. What happens? Yeah, yeah, I think that's huge. Um, I'll share this and then see if you have anything else you want to share. I one time had two jobs. I tell this story a lot when I talk about, um, regrets or failure, but really regrets. I had two jobs that were identical on paper offers. Identical in terms of roughly identical. Right. Like two high end, well known companies. Um, the offers were very, very similar. The stock would have been around the same. Um, the roles were roughly the same. One was a role where I was going to get a title bump and have a. And I thought like, learn something new. But it was very ambiguous. Like, but. Or like the job wasn't ambiguous, but like who, how the person I was working for, I didn't know very well and some of, some of the structure and how they did the product and how they did that was ambiguous. The other job, the job itself was really ambiguous. I had no idea what I would be doing day to day, but the boss was, uh, awesome and I would have learned a ton from that person. In the end, I took the job where I understood what the job was going to be, even though I didn't know as much about the boss and had a couple friends working there and it just felt like, oh, I'll do that. And I have always looked at that and been like, I wonder what it would have been like if I had said yes to working for that guy.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because we absolutely hit it off. But the job was so. There was so much ambiguity. And I wish that I had leaned into my dealing with ambiguity skills and said, you know what, I want to learn from that guy. And, and I mean life goes on and it works out. Right. But when I look at that, that decision, I went with what felt safe instead of what felt good.

Speaker B: Yeah. Geez, this is such a tough one, Leah, because I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you, you that I see both sides of this coin and I think it depends on, um, I think it depends on who you are and what your context are. What it depends.

Speaker A: But I,

Speaker B: I may have made the same decision for the title and the bigger job and the end. Because it does. There's a part of it that you're like, okay, well, it's career progression. Um, with the benefit of hindsight and with the benefit of having teams, um, and people that I just truly believe in, um, I think the right answer for me in this moment, at this time is to work for the person that you want to work for and not really worry about the job as long as they understand who you are and what your goals are and what you want to do in the future. Go with. Go with the person.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, because I've had to, like, bring people in or put people on projects that weren't great.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Just get this thing out the door.

Speaker A: I promise we'll find you.

Speaker B: Exactly right. I know who you are. I understand what you want out of your career. I got you. We're going to make this work. Um, and those relationships for me with, again, with the benefit of having been a manager, which we should also probably talk about, um, that, like, getting your people, like, your people that, you know, are amazing, that can stretch, even if they kind of sometimes don't want to. Like, I've had lots of people that are like, I don't really want to be a manager, and I'm like, I know, but you're going to be awesome. So trust me.

Speaker A: Go ahead.

Speaker B: You're going to be a great manager. You're going to do it. Um, those relationships are the ones that have really always opened the doors, uh, for me and made me a better, better. A better person, a better. A better employee and a better manager.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, when I watch this guy and what he's done with his career, I'm always like, damn, I could have been with him on that. Right? Because I think we would have. It could have been really interesting, you know, And I'm always like, so. So I, you know, so I. But, but, you know, like I said, you. You live and learn. You're at different times and you're in different moments of. Of, you know, what am I going to lean into?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And my feelings. What do I need more freedom or safety? What do I need more fun or, you know, commitment? Like, what do I, you know, you have the different. Different moments. So I don't, like when I say I regret it, whatever it is, where I've ended up. Where I've ended up.

Speaker B: But, yeah, I love that, that description you just gave, like, where are you in your career? And it's. It's funny because I also will tell that anybody that knows me or has worked for me. Will. Will. Will have heard this before. Um, the only person that can make these decisions. And I actually think I stole it from you, my friend. Um, you are the CEO of whateveryourname is dot com.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: The only people that sit at your board table are your family and the people you love. 100 company you work for does not sit at this table. And you need to make the right decision for you and your family in that moment in your given context. Yeah.

Speaker A: 100%. One.

Speaker B: Uh.

Speaker A: Hundred percent. Like the board. The board seat. The seats at the board of my director table do not belong to companies because no matter what people tell you, they are not actual people.

Speaker B: And honestly, they've got their own agenda.

Speaker A: They got a huge agenda. Whereas my family and my friends might have some agenda, but I know it well.

Speaker B: In the center is probably more. More aligned to you as the person.

Speaker A: Yeah. 100. 100. That I learned that. I remember realizing that I had given Amazon a seat at the table and that their opinion of me mattered as much as yours or my mom's or.

Speaker B: And I was like, that's when you start killing yourself. That's when your values start to skew. Is when. When. When a company or someone who may not understand who you are all the way to your core and love you if it's a good day or a bad day.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, if their opinion starts to impact your mental health or influence your decisions. Like, absolutely not.

Speaker A: Because on my worst day, you would say, oh, Leah, you're enough.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: But on my word, on my best day at a company, they're like, not quite enough. A little more please.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And that's okay. That's their job.

Speaker B: That's their job.

Speaker A: But that's why they don't get a seat.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because the review never says, hey, you know, this was a really tough year. But you know what? You. You're enough. Like, we're really glad you're here. Yeah. They tell you like, you screwed up. Even, like, even if you're exceeds or like the best, you still have a, uh, you know, reasons not to promote or you screwed up or. And oh, by the way, we're not going to give you 100 of your bonus because, you know, because you mouthed

Speaker A: off at the wrong moment and had a bad day. That's never happened to me today.

Speaker B: Today.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So let's flip this just a little bit because both you and I have managed people. Um, and. And uh, so how do you make sure that you are a good boss?

Speaker A: So that's A good question. I think for me, there are a couple things I lean pretty heavily on. I. I try to be really clear about what winning looks like on my team and in the organization. Like, what, what. And when I say winning, I don't mean, like, we're beating all these people, but, like, who are we competing with? What are we competing at? What will a win look like? Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, who are we solving problems for? So that's a big one. And then I really. And I've said this actually to team members many times. I don't want people to work for me in an environment where they feel like I want them to be a different person than they are. I want them to be who they are. And I want us to figure out how we can make you shine. Like, how can I help you? Take all of you and be the best you hear?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Does that make sense?

Speaker B: I freaking love that. And I think it sort of, like, speaks to the things in my heart.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I think there's a couple of aspects to this. I, um, think. I think sometimes, um, and I think potentially more m. For females than. Than males or others. Um, only because that's my lived experience.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, is we feel like we have to compete against everybody. Our peers, everybody. We have to win that seat. Like, that. That top box or like, whatever. That was my official monster voice. That creates a competition that does not necessarily lead to team success and team success, to company success.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, and I. I think that building a space where. Where your team supports each other, um, and cares about each other, like, let's just put it in really human, like, terms. I want the people that work for me, regardless of how large my team is, to really give a. About the people that they work with.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And they can annoy the crap out of each other at times, but when the chips are down, they will turn around and have each other's backs.

Speaker A: Yes. 100%.

Speaker B: A thousand percent.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, I don't love toxicity. I hate the backbiting. I won't tolerate it. Um, and if I can create a space where people can bring their authentic self to work, because I'm going to do the same thing. Like, I'm going to. I'm going to say bad words sometimes, and the people that don't are going to get offended, and we're going to have to have a conversation about it. Um, but they're also going to bring their whole selves to work, and we're going to find a way to. To bring our collective goodness together to solve a problem. That's bigger than all of us.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um.

Speaker A: Yeah. So good.

Speaker B: No, no, go ahead.

Speaker A: I was gonna say it's. I mean, the print. It's the principle of if they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And when I'm on a team, we don't do things with each other that we. That, you know, I don't want anybody to assume that if I'm talking shit about you, if I'm talking about you to them, they can count on the fact that I'm probably going to do the same thing the other way.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: And so it's very important to me as a leader to demonstrate I don't put up with that. I won't do it. I don't want you to do it. It's unacceptable. I one time told my team, we had a team that was so gossipy, it was like working with a bunch of little old ladies in the library. Like, it was. The men on the team, they were the worst. They all gossiped all the time. And so one time I had in all hands, and I was like, we're done with gossip. The very next piece of gossip that touches my desk, I'm going to approach the person it's about and ask them if they said it, and we are going to deal with it, and I'm going to tell them who I heard it from. So we're all done with gossip, and if I hear it, we will deal with it. And everybody was like, you know, it was like, super. But, I mean, we did not. If we had gossip, it never got to me.

Speaker B: No one wanted to give it to you because.

Speaker A: So even if they were still gossiping, I. My job was much easier. But actually, I think the, the, the fact was they sort of stopped doing it because it wasn't getting them anywhere.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so we started having these really open conversations when we were in conflict. And the other thing, I would tell them, that same team, we do not compete in here. Yeah, we are competing with those people. Uh, they want our customers, they want our money, they want to take our investors. That's who we're competing with. This, we're not doing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I remember my teams being like, oh, we didn't. Oh, we thought we were competing.

Speaker B: I'm like, no, this is not Microsoft. Oh, I didn't say that out loud. I, um, I love that I have, I have encountered. Uh, one time, uh, when I was working in San Francisco, there is a. There's an app called Blind. And Blind is an app that allows you to, um, bitch about your employer in an anonymous way. And, um, the employees at this company, uh, were awful. Toxic on blind. Like, toxic on blind. Um, and it was just really hard to combat because you could have open conversations, but you still had this underpinning of. Of trash toxicity. Um, and we never really figured out how to make it work. There was just a bunch of really unhappy people across the company. And, like, it was bigger than my space. And, um, I don't think the studio. Yeah. So you can. You can manage it within your space. Um, I do think I try to do that by being very upfront. Like, I'll tell you, like, I will have an open. Ask me anything. Yeah. M. Somebody has to ask the question. You can ask it on behalf of someone else if you want to be anonymous.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But you cannot be fully anonymous. Uh, and I will give you an honest answer.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, I have. I have had feedback from people later on that I'm scary. Um, and, you know, I. Like, there was one meeting in particular. This. This. This lady that used to work for me, it loves to tell me about. And, um, everybody was kind of like. And I was like, who owns the. Who owns the decision? There has to be a person that owns a decision. Like, y' all can have an opinion, and you all have. You know, you all have a voice in this process, but there has to be one person that owns it. Who am I going to fire if this goes wrong? I said that in a meeting, and that's exactly what happened. Like, she was like, I was terrified.

Speaker A: Right. We're getting fired.

Speaker B: But I mean, like, uh, okay, on the other hand, right. Who am I going to promote if it goes right? But, like, one person. This is not. This is not, uh, like, you know, someone's going to make a decision, and they're going to be right or wrong, and it's going to be a weighty decision. I'm going to help them.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: But this, like, collective nagging and bitching doesn't work.

Speaker A: We're making decisions here.

Speaker B: Yeah. So sometimes I think I can be a little, um. I can be a little upfront with people that don't. That aren't familiar with how I operate. And it's not. It's not because I'm trying to scare everybody. It's because I'm trying to cut to the right. The heart of the conversation.

Speaker A: Same, I think. I mean, I've certainly. You know, I think you and I have talked about. I have been. I. If I get a review, somewhere in my review, it says, I'm either bossy or aggressive or abrasive or any of the words I've been called. Right. And I finally said, okay. But, yeah, I'm those things. And I had a conversation one time, uh, when I worked in Seattle with the health tech startup was having, and the lady. A lady pulled me aside, and she was like, I think you're aggressive.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And I said, yeah. And she was, like, really surprised that I wasn't offended. I think she thought she was going to make me mad. She was. I was like, what, are you looking to make me feel aggressive? Um. And I said, um. Was I. I said, I have two questions. And she's like, okay. I said, was I unkind at any point in the exchange? And she said, no. And I said, was I unprofessional? And she said, no. And I said, because if I was unkind or unprofessional, I will march my happy ass over and make an apology, because I never intend to be unkind or unprofessional.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I know that I can be. And so if I was, I will apologize. But if all you're coming to complain about is that I'm aggressive, that's what I do. I'm here to move the needle.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I push. That's my job. And if I can't push, I will pull.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Like, one way or the other, we're doing the thing. And so call me all the things. Oh, you're bitchy. Yep. Um, sure, you can call me all the things. But I try really hard not to be unkind. And I try really hard not to be unprofessional.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I don't scream at people. I don't swear at people. I don't call people out of their names. Like, these are my rules.

Speaker B: Sometimes I swear. But I don't swear at people.

Speaker A: I swear. I swear. But I don't swear at you.

Speaker B: That's a punctuation. I swear.

Speaker A: Yes. Yes. I'm not ever gonna. Yeah, it's about. It's that. And I think you can call me all the other things, because I know who I am, and so as a boss, I know who I am.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think you just said something really important. Um, is that, you know, you're gonna push. You're gonna push to. To get the team where you need to get the team. But I've also seen you. You. Um. And thank you for bringing this to my mind. I've also seen you push for individuals.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Especially when they're not in the room. Yeah. Oh, I've Seen you stand up for your team. Yeah. Um, I've seen you advocate, uh, for them. You're never passive. And let it. Like, let's, let's put this in the, in the context of, uh, employee calibration. Um, you're never passive. You don't, you don't, you don't lie. Um, and you don't sandbag.

Speaker A: I'm never going to sandbag.

Speaker B: But you always, you always will stand up and have a conversation about the value, the relative value of a person and, you know, their importance and their skills and, and what they bring to the team in a really, uh, in a really thoughtful, prepared way. Are prepared to defend, um, the space that your team inhabits.

Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. And I, I mean, I, I've seen you do the same. And I think the part of the reason why we get the respect we get when we do that is because if somebody's an underperformer, we'll also be like, yeah, I'm having those conversations. Yeah. You don't have to tell me at calibration to have a conversation with them. I'm already doing it. The calibration document usually says, we've had these conversations. This is where we're at.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. And so as long as, uh, Because I follow the principle of Bernee Brown, that clear. Is kind and unclear. Is unkind.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And the kindest thing I can do for people is tell them the goddamn truth.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Good or bad.

Speaker B: And sometimes this isn't the spot. Um, like you're gonna put yourself through hell.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You're gonna feel bad about yourself. You're gonna work super hard, but this job's not the right job for you. And so you're going to continue to expend an excessive amount of energy in a place that's not going to make you feel good about yourself. Because we're not utilizing your superpowers. Your superpowers are.

Speaker A: These other things are amazing at.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Let's find that. You need to find something where you can do that. If it's not here, it's somewhere, Right? Yeah. But it's not here.

Speaker B: I've also seen you use your network.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: To help people find a spot that's better for them.

Speaker A: Yeah. That's important to me. So one of the things I always say about leadership is that I lead the whole person.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Not just the person I'm getting what I want from. They are a whole person with a family and a life and interests outside of what I need from them. What might. What fits my agenda. Of course I have an agenda for someone on my team. Right. That whole person. And so I want them to bring their whole person and I want us to sort out. Is this right? Is this right for you now? Is this. Has the season passed? Were we great together for the first year, and now you need to do something else and go work for someone else or, you know, whatever. I think you and I both have people who have a really hard time leaving us.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And I'm like, you gotta go. Right.

Speaker B: I will absolutely tell people like this, this is not forever.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: This is a moment in time for both of us. Like, we, we get the privilege of working together for now. What do you want to learn? What do you want to do? What do I need done? How do we match those two things up?

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: And then there will become a time when you're not going to get what you want from me. Uh, this role's not going to give you what you want to progress, or I'm going to need something different from you and we're going to have a different conversation and you and I will help figure it out.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. Because life is long and there will be other opportunities to work together.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, yeah. 100. 100. And I think, I think that that's an important thing as a leader, to recognize the influence and power you can have over someone when you really tell them the truth. Sit with them and help them be better. Challenge them, give them some space, you know, like really dig in there. You can really. I have had people really life changing, um, managers in my life. And I think I have tried to be that for some people in their life.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I've, I can clearly point to just the, you know, the few managers that have really exhibited those attributes and made a massive difference. They go from boss to mentor, to sponsor, to like lifelong friends.

Speaker A: Yeah. 100. 100. I was telling, telling you before that I have, I have three people that were my boss early in my career. Um, one was a woman when I was still an accountant. And, um, she is like a extra mother to me now. Right. Like, she's the second. Rely on her that way. And two were men who, one was a CEO and one was the chief product officer that I worked for early in my career when I was still like, trying to get my shoes under me and figure things out. Right. And both of them, now, if I say, if I call them and like, hey, I'm trying to make this decisions, can I talk it through with you? Both of these men are like, listen, you've Far done things that I have not done. Why are you asking me? And I'm like, because I want your opinion. And I, what I told one of them recently was because, you know, the girl I was, ah, uh, and she, and she still shows up sometimes, right? And they're like, okay, let me talk, talk, talk to me. That it, right? Because he knows I'm. I still somewhere in me have that girl who's like, I gotta run faster because they're gonna catch me. Yes. None of that changes anything, right?

Speaker B: So none of that changes. What a, uh, what a good moment. So for everybody out there that's thinking about a new job or evaluating your job, um, like, I hope this has been a moment for you to reflect on who you are and what are your strengths and, and you know, who do you want to work for? Do you want to work for someone that, like, values that and, and amplifies it, or, or do you want to try to suppress yourself into a space that's really uncomfortable? I would say do the former, not the latter. That's my personal advice.

Speaker A: Right. We'll learn a lot from the second.

Speaker B: It hurts, though. It hurts. Trust me. We've both done it.

Speaker A: We've both been there. Yeah. Yeah. No, it is. And if you are someone who's leading people or hiring people, especially if your first time at it, if you are just learning how to lead people, lean into the people who led you well and ask questions. Don't try to be superstar first time manager, you're gonna screw it up. Right? I know I did it.

Speaker B: I tell everybody that, uh, that like the first time you're a Met, like the first time you're a manager, you are going to screw it up.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: You're gonna mess it up and your people are gonna hate you. But we can work through this together.

Speaker A: I sometimes think about the first time I was a manager and it makes me feel sick. Like, because I had an employee who used to slink by my office because he was afraid of me, because I used to take his work away from him.

Speaker B: The way you were gonna do it.

Speaker A: I'll just do it. I'll do it myself.

Speaker B: I remember a time when, when I let two of my teammates just not get along. I assumed it was a them problem, not a me problem. Um, I mean, there were just some strong personalities and it was mine to manage and I did not. And you know, I, I don't feel good about it. Um, I recognize my mistake now.

Speaker A: And yeah, uh, when I think about it, I'm always like, at Least I know that current day me would be like, no, we're not doing that.

Speaker B: So if time travel were real, or we're going to be real in the future, uh, my butt would go back and tell old Marilyn not to. Not like, you know what, you own this.

Speaker A: Get in the, get in there. Get your hands dirty on this one.

Speaker B: Clearly it's not freely accessible to all people when I get old. Because I would have fixed that.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. But yeah, so, no, this was good. I'm glad we did this because I do think that we have some, some you and I have some real life examples of good and bad. Um, and we didn't unpack anybody's dirty laundry here. We, we hinted, but we didn't, we didn't unpack anything. Um, but I do think like I hope that some folks that are in the, in the thick of it right now trying to pick their next boss or be a new boss or you're a long time boss and you just need some rethinking. Got, um, a little, got some tips here if you would like to uh, tell us what you, what, what are your best experiences? What are you looking for in a boss? Um, or you know, tell us, tell us anything about that. Like the, the looking and the, the striving and what your mistakes as a first time manager would be a great one too.

Speaker B: So that would be fun. We should have a panel discussion on that. Yes. Sign up for that, my friends.

Speaker A: Yeah, sign up for mistakes I made as a first time manager. Awesome, Marilyn. This was fun.

Speaker B: Thanks, Leah.

Speaker A: Talk to you soon.