Episode 19: Daniel's HR Origin Story

Speaker A: Foreign. Today I'm super pumped for the first episode of the second season of Overall hr. And today's guest is Daniel Howell. I actually didn't know your last name. This is the second, um, shoot that I had to do because I just know you as Daniel Life in corporate. Is that right from TikTok? So I will, rather than me tell our listeners who you are, I'll first let you tell us a little bit about you, um, and how you're crazy enough to get into this HR profession.

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. So my name is Daniel Howell and I have, I don't know, 15, 16 years of HR experience, really since I started my career. Um, I'm right outside of Greenville, South Carolina, if you know the area. I work remotely. Um, I have for quite a while now. I do a fair amount of travel, um, here and there. And, um, yeah, that's me. I have a little goldendoodle that's five and years old and we just went for a mile and a half walks. I'm all of a sudden exhausted.

Speaker A: You're doing better than I am today. That's good. That's probably why. So for our listeners, if you hear dogs barking, it's one of my dogs and not Daniel's dog because he's, he's worn her out on the mile and a half walk. I love that. Um, well, again for our listeners, we're sort of changing up pace a little bit or the theme. And we're having conversation this season with HR professionals for their origin story, how they entered into the human resources profession, what they believe about the profession, because that differs in everyone's HR philosophy, HR ideology. Um, I'm calling it the fracture points. That moment that everyone hits, I feel like in the HR world of I'm so over this, maybe I should have been a CPA or went into something different. Um, and then just what some parting wisdom for folks. So I'm super pumped for our conversation today and I know that those of you that are choosing to listen to this conversation will get some good takeaways. Um, so Daniel, first, uh, first question for you is, how did you end up in the function of hr? Was it a choice or an accident?

Speaker B: An accident. Total, ah, accident. I graduated college in the best year ever, 2008, right when the whole economy was plummeting and there were no jobs out there or anything. And, um, what was kind of pumping, if you may remember, was contingent labor. So if you happen to be in, ah, HR space, you know, companies were not hiring. They were hiring contingent workers, like across the board. Whether it was blue collar, hourly or salary rolls, and they were not hiring and they're doing a lot of firing and layoffs and all that good stuff. So I ended up landing with a, um, contingent labor company that staffed in about seven different states. And I ended up getting placed on site at a pharmaceutical company. And I had no clue about what I was doing either. I was just out of college. This is not what I was planning to do. Um, but this was after like 300 applications and no interviews. Right. And you were just able to have

Speaker A: a job at this point.

Speaker B: Do you learn it? Yeah. And I got in and basically what I was, my goal was to make money. Right. So whatever they needed, I would go say we could do that. Right. And um, whether it was janitorial work or a maintenance employee, or working the line or working accounting or just working the front desk, uh, security, like whatever that was, they hired us to do that for their plant. So. Because they weren't hiring. Right. And so when I got into that, I realized very quickly that I was very good at matching people to, and their skills to a job. And so I kind of more started like that talent space, I guess you would say. Um, and so a lot of, about a half of my career was really ended up being more on the contingent labor side. And um, and how we would do that. So yeah, that's how I got into it and then never looked back.

Speaker A: I love that. I love that. So, um, next question. I'm skipping around a little bit, but tell us what role are you in now and how different is that current role from the contingent labor space?

Speaker B: Yes. So now. Well, I've always worked for Fortune 500 companies except for that first kind of five years of my career. So I've always been in a very large organization. So everything, uh, today I guess I talk about from my perspective is going to be, you know, working for a very large machine basically. Um, but today I am in um, HR operations or people operations. And I lead services for three big pillars of our company. One is global pre boarding, um, so for. So I manage pre boarding and onboarding for 50 countries. The second one is talent and culture. So I'll lead the services of all of our performance systems. Then the last one is learning. So I just lead the services side of all of our learning systems. Like you know, you go in and take the classes and all that stuff. Yeah, we do all of the, we build a lot, we don't make the content. We build a lot of the courses and assign and audiences and all that. Okay. So very different from um, my original role. I've done front facing hr. All of that. This people operations, HR side of it is a little bit newer for me. Um, but it's been a really fun challenge. So I love that.

Speaker A: Yeah, the learning piece, I feel like that is every employee loves getting that message. So this is due or it's that

Speaker B: time of year again, right? Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: Sort of. The next section of this is your philosophy, um, which tends to be a really hot topic, um, particularly in the TikTok lands, uh, where you and I first became acquainted. So I'm curious, Daniel, what do you believe that HR is actually responsible for? For beyond compliance and policy enforcement.

Speaker B: Yes. So like I said, my experience is more from this big, you know, Fortune 500 company side of things. So probably like what I think is probably more there than if I were like a smaller company maybe. Um, but I think, I think ultimately HR is responsible for helping to drive the priorities of the company. Right. And whatever those are. Right. So for example, if the company wants to grow 15% next year, what is my responsibility in that, uh, as an HR partner and how do I support that or what within that do I do I support. Right. To get there. And I think there's a lot of avenues with that, like how do we get there and how do we support the business and team to uh, get there? Basically, of course.

Speaker A: Um, so my next question, um, and this is one of those buzzwords or buzz phrases rather, but when you hear, or you hear leadership say, or even you know, folks that are non affiliated with any company that you've worked with, when you hear HR is here to protect the company, how do you interpret that? As an HR professional?

Speaker B: I totally disagree with that. And I'll tell. This is just, this is again my perspective what I've seen before. COVID HR was very aligned to L and E legal and employment. Right. Sometimes even reporting into L and E. Mhm. And I think that a lot of that's where that comes from. Right. It's because it was, I want to fire someone up, uh, hr. I'm going to go to legal and work with them on that. Legal says this, legal said that. Right. Um, and so any type of policy, anything like that was all just legal, legal, legal. Then Covid comes and all of a sudden HR has to totally shift from being legal to being compassionate and taking care of our employees and teaching our people leaders how to be empathetic. Right. How m to work, how to help people navigate working from home. Right. There's a lot of like emotional and psychological needs that come from that uh, on all sides of it. And now we're on this back end of it where companies are trying, like it's particularly at my company, we're trying to figure out how we can now push these, transact all this transaction work that we used to do away and be more front facing and be there for the employees and know uh, their children's names and where their spouses work and what we can do with them and how they feel and mhm. Working on performance and getting to know them. And I think it's like a struggle there, right. Of trying to figure out that balance. I think that was the COVID happened and that was a big shift that companies were not prepared for. Right. And so now particularly big companies are trying to find what that new balance needs to look like.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And you know, Daniel, you say something there that is insightful and one that I think that I have thought of but not considered to that, to that degree and that is the compliance perspective shift from hr, um, and particularly the emotional aspect of it. Um, and I am I guess appreciative and respectful of the fact that your company recognizes what is the new normal. But it seems like there are a lot of companies and that's very general of me to say, but I'm thinking of AT&T like back in the fall or summer where. And I do think that the political, the current administration doesn't help, but folks think that, okay, Covid was just something that happened and now let's go back. But I just disagree with that. Um, this is. Covid was a new chapter and you can't go back to part one. We're now on part three. And how do we find out how to have world of work that's new because we've demonstrated through Covid, okay, people are capable of doing this remotely. We don't have to have them here. Um, leaders can do it when they are incentivized via um, um, not, I don't want to say policy but you know, regulation. With COVID uh, protocol, they can do it, but now they don't have to. So what's the balance? Because they can do it, they don't have to now.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, yeah, for sure. I think Covid showed a huge gap. Right. And I think companies reacted in different ways. Either they just were like, hey, there's a gap, but we're going to ignore it and go forward or there is a gap, you know, we need to fill or plan for down the road. I think it's just whatever that company's philosophy is, Right?

Speaker A: Absolutely. And I do see the collaborative

Speaker B: benefit,

Speaker A: um, of having people in the office. And I think that's where we automatically go to, um, is, you know, getting back to work. But it's also so much more than that. It's the management practices that you just touched to. It's getting to know people as people and not line items on a roster. Because you had to, you had to interact with them in a way that, with the. Why am I blanking? It was the family, um, you know, the federally mandated sick leave, the COVID leave.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um, you had to interact even for, you know, big companies have that naturally just because you have such large headcounts. But even small companies had to learn how to engage in interactive process because they had to.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So let me ask this. Um, a lot of folks believe that HR has more decision making autonomy or power then from my seat. Um, HR actually does. But where do you think HR has the most power even if HR practitioners don't always use that power?

Speaker B: Yeah, Um, I think where HR has the most power is influence on a lot of. Where a lot of compensation and benefit sides, a lot of influence on where people go and where they can go next.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, as far as like movements, lateral movements. Right. Gaps on the team, all of that. But I don't think that HR always steps in to use that power in a positive way for the company because I don't know that a lot of HR partners feel comfortable influencing in that way, if that makes sense. Um, and I think it goes back to, um, well, we're policy driven, we're writing policies, we're going to legal, we're doing this, we're doing that. But I think as an HR partner, you have a very holistic view. Right. Of like people's performance and the work that they're doing. And I think if you're observant, you can easily be part of a team where you see a lot of gaps. Right. You can influence those gaps. But I think it's like a choice. Right. Or it's just like how much capacity you have. Right. To be able to do that as well.

Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. Um, sort of the next. This is more reflective questions about you, um, and what you feel comfortable sharing. Of course. Um, what has been the hardest moment to date of your HR career? To carry. I don't want to say quietly, uh, but to carry.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, I think my hardest moments really are those, um, where I just disagree with the direction of the company. Right. And that happens a lot. Um, I have been part of, um, where we've impacted entire teams because we've made a change or a pivot. I used to work for a really big global transportation company, like a huge global. And they only really worked a quarter out really. Because transportation is so volatile. Right. It's like very telling of like the economy and what's going to happen. Really. Mhm. And so we were really, we were really like whatever happened to us would come what happened us more across, broadly, more like you know, six months later, if that makes sense. Yeah. And we were always higher, higher, higher, fire, fire, fire. Higher, higher, higher. It was just back and forth and back and forth and the money that we spent and the angst that we had. Um, you know, I really disagreed with, right. Of like how it was handled. It was like. And I felt like half of my role there was severance agreements nonstop. But then it was, then it got to a point where it just really impacted the employees there. Right. Like they didn't want to work. They could care less. We only planned a quarter out. So they never saw really big improvements or projects. Right. So I really disagreed with that method. But my job was to support the business. Right. And our priorities. Right. And so, um, that was a challenge for sure.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, I bet. Well, and it's one of those things where, to your point, if you don't see if, and this is a fundamental of life, if you don't have something to look forward to, then what are you working for? What are you working towards today? And if a business can't forecast out three months, what sort of motivation does that give you for what you're working towards?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: But on top of that, if the business has demonstrated people are in fact disposable and you see that, hear it and you feel it.

Speaker B: And you feel like that too. Yeah.

Speaker A: Oh yeah. I commend you because that had to have been tough.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, yeah. It's a piece of that job I don't miss.

Speaker A: I bet I couldn't. Um, you know, I have only had to do when in a traditional in house HR role. Um, my only exposure to severance agreements where I owned it like I was the facilitator, um, was when Covid hit. But the management company we had, they kept everyone. So we're. I'm, I'm located in central Kentucky and horse industry is huge. Um, and we were hosting the Breeders cup the November of 2020. And if you'll remember, um, it's not a fun time to revisit, but if you can recall, in that time frame, we had, um, everything was shut down because we were just figuring out what Covid was like from March to probably June, May, June. And then things like businesses were hurting. And I think our elected officials realized this is not, we can't continue in this manner. So they, each state individually came up with what they felt like was a good return to work game plan. Um, and once we hit into November, the Breeders cup was being hosted in Lexington and they decided to keep it because it was a big, it was just a big. For the city, uh, you know, financially, it brought in a lot of outside folks and it was good for the hotel. Um, but after Breeders cup, we could see the numbers just tank Again, not in the same way, but we had held on to all of our management staff. And the corporate, corporate had told me prior to that Breeders cup they were cutting 6 of 24, um, director level positions. And that was really difficult because it was a catch 22, you know, when there was nothing, they still kept people. They didn't furlough any salaried exempt directors, they didn't even cut pay. They kept them the same. And so I think a lot of these people thought they had survived it. And then after the hype and the, um, excitement of what felt like old times settled, it hit again. And that impacted people pretty drastically. And the feelings were a lot stronger because people didn't understand it. Um, so that was tough. Um, and I can't imagine doing it consistently every quarter. Knowing had to be a level of whiplash for you.

Speaker B: For sure. Yeah, for sure. Um, it's insane. Oh, I bet.

Speaker A: Have you ever been asked to enforce something that conflicted with your values or your judgment? Um, and this sounds like a very deep question, um, and it is. But as HR professionals, it reaches a point where because of the nature of the type of work you're engaging in, you have to make decisions. Um, and so with that, have you ever had a time in your experience where you couldn't agree and you didn't want, you didn't support it? How did you handle that? And what advice do you have for other HR practitioners that are listening?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think this happens all the time. Right. I think there's a lot of bias right out there with people, leaders. And, um, I think where I have the biggest conflict is on the hiring side. Right. Because my part in like the interview process and all is, you know, making sure that, um, you know, it's not necessarily the skill set because I think that's the people, leaders, responsibility but mine is, you know, that they are who they say they are. Um, you know, really digging in, that they're good and sound character. Um, you know, that, uh, they're going to be good for the team. Right. And I think that almost every time this happens all the time where I go back with my recommendation is totally different from the people leader. And a lot of times it is due to bias, um, within whatever that might be, whether it's age, race, um, you know, what they were wearing, you know, how they spoke, where they came from. M. People. Leaders like to hire people that are just like them. Right. And so that is my biggest, you know, value issue. And I can turn blue in the face sometimes. It's ultimately, it's not my decision. Right. But I can make it very hard for them to go forward. And I do. But it, um, Ultimately, you know, I don't. Very rarely do I win that campaign. Right. And so I think that's the hardest for me is that, um, I know that we didn't hire the right person because of some type of bias that I can't control that are totally opposite of my value. So for sure.

Speaker A: And that's always been the toughest for me. Um, and you know, I won't necessarily go into that very, um, deeply. Um, but I will say it's difficult when you're in an HR role and you have a leader who conceptually they're not wrong. Like, they're not wrong, but contextually they are wrong. And if I can put it into an analogy, it's the equivalent of saying, well, I really need an umbrella whenever it's raining, but the forecast is sunny for the next 30 days.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And so you're arguing, arguing with someone about a concept that has basis, but in this context it doesn't. It makes zero sense. And to your point, you can argue, and I don't like advocate I think is the better word until you're blue in the face. But at the end of the day, it's a losing battle.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: So what do people outside of hr, from your perspective, most misunderstand about the role of hr?

Speaker B: Um, let's see. I think. Well, I think it's very company specific and it depends. Right. I think US companies don't. Us companies. HR is a lot more limited than it used to be. Right. So like, we know that, you know, you have one HR partner to 300 people. Right. Which is crazy. But so I think we've this. The industry itself, right. As weave this. Um, I think that for employees, HR is where you go for all your grievances. Right. Um, and it's where they go to talk about all the things that they're mad at. Right. Um, and whether. Whatever that might be because they don't know where a lot of the things they should be doing maybe they should go. Their people leader. Um, and I think that, um, that's not really what our full function is like. I always tell people the best mentor you could possibly have is an HR person.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, because we touch so many parts of the organization that no one ever thinks to have a mentor that's an HR person unless you're in hr. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. And so there's just so many other places I can help you so much with getting you training, getting you into a mentorship program, getting you outside training, skill building you. Right. Talking to other people about you. Um, talking to other leaders about you, talking to other teams. Right. And really advocate for you. But people only want to come, you know, particularly when I was in front facing, um, with what they were mad at. And a lot of times those things that they were mad at weren't even things that I could control. Right. Um, so I think that's, it's the, um. Let me just tell you all the things I hate about this place and then you have to fix it. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: It's like, okay, I cannot help the fact that you don't love the fact the logo. You're a Louisville fan and you like red, but we're blue, so sorry.

Speaker B: Yeah, right. Or you don't like the snacks in the vending machine. You know, um, or even just some people leader things. You don't. I think you don't like the work that you do. Okay, well, let's have an honest conversation. This is the job you applied for. Right. And so that's the work that you have to do. Um, some of that stuff. Uh. Oh yeah, I think, you know, people don't. There's not. I know there's not a menu of what HR is available for all the time, but there's definitely, there's definitely more to it than just going to file your complaint, so.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Or when something goes wrong.

Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. Spot on. Spot on. Um, next, like I'm realizing the flow of these questions, it kind of flows like a drinking game. Like we should have. I should have had you fix you a cocktail and maybe done this in the evening, afternoon happy hour. Um, because we're kind of getting to the more, um, edgy questions. Um, have you ever seriously considered leaving hr?

Speaker B: No, I haven't because I have no clue what I would do. Um, I really, I have no interest in running the business, really. Um, I just don't find that that great. I feel like it's very day to day the same, you know, Um, I don't. I'm not good with numbers. I could never do finance or accounting. I think, if anything, I mean, I think that's kind of why I got on TikTok, because it's a. For me. I love the creativity of it. I have no clue what I'm doing on there. I literally, I don't either completely change my style, like, every week because I'm still trying to figure out, like, the groove is for me. Um, and, you know, but I like to create the content. Like, I think it's fun. I think it's fun to edit. Like, that's a creative outlet for me.

Speaker A: Uh-huh.

Speaker B: So I think, you know, I'll see where it goes. Um, but I know there's no, like, you know, outcome, really. Like, I don't know what. What'll happen. You know, it's just fun. I mean, I'm here doing a podcast, right. So that's fun. Like the opportunities of TikTok, right. Um, maybe own some type of a small business or something here in town. But then I'm like, I don't want to own a restaurant, I wouldn't want to own a clothing store. You know, like, what else would I do? Um, I think I don't have a lot. A lot. I mean, I have some outside hobbies. I'm not really good at a lot of stuff, but I am really good at my job, if that makes sense. And so, you know, to be able to pivot from that, um, probably a little scary right now, but ask me which.

Speaker A: And that's not, you know, that. That's not a negative. Um, and in my mind, I would think that if I am an employee inside an organization, knowing that my HR leader sees this profession as a top of his really. Ah. An extension of his own identity. That's what you want. Um, from my take, you want HR leaders that see this as a calling as opposed to just something that is a 9 to 5, because it's not. HR can never be a 9 to 5. I don't think my mind will ever change on that unless you do payroll. But that's not hr, in my opinion. But that's a conversation for another day.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but here's kind of like a fun question, and it's a little bit. It kind of puts you In a weird spot. It's contrary on the tail end of how you answered the last question. Let's say if you ever did leave hr, um, what do you think it would be that you were trying to escape? If you said, okay, I'm going to cut hr, I'm going to have a lifestyle travel influencing blog. That's it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, I would probably be escaping the, uh, pressure of it a little bit. Um, there's so many, there's so many things that can go wrong in the company and a lot of it falls back on HR. Ah, to solve. Right. If you have 401k issues, payroll issues, um, benefits issues, a death in your family, you know, anything that happens to you outside of like you putting that part together, HR has some role in. Even if HR doesn't directly handle that piece. Right. I might be the one that submits that ticket or has to go to that expert on behalf of you. I think, like, just the stress of that probably sometimes is a lot. Right. And that's probably what I would be escaping.

Speaker A: Okay. And that makes sense. And, uh, I love that you answered it that way because I think that we'll find in this season that that's a unique answer. Um, because most folks will go to the fatigue of the conflict and the burnout. You know, you, you, you, you get it and hurt it.

Speaker B: Yes, yes. I think if I were front facing, I would have went that direction because I really burnt, got, you know, burned out of front facing, you know, generalist type work. I'm not in that as much anymore. Now I'm more behind a ticket that an employee submits. But they don't see me, they don't know me, they don't know my team. We're responding. Right, Right. But it's like, I can take my time on it. I just want my, my expectation for the team is they have a really good experience and it's resolved first time. Um, and the response. But it's not necessarily like, how fluffy do we make this? Or how, you know, whatever, a lot of it is templated out. But in my front facing, I got totally burned out. So I'm there. And so particularly after Covid in my, you know, for my last company, I just kind of pivoted a little bit. But, um, yeah, for sure.

Speaker A: Um, so what do you know now that you wished you had known in your first. Let's go back in time in that first HR role in 2008 era, what do you know now that you'd wish you'd known then?

Speaker B: Um, so I was basically put into a people leader role then and I'd never led people before or a team. And I think back now, like, I think back now of, uh. Like I even posted a TikTok yesterday about. Because it was reflecting of me like it was just the words on the screen about how you just graduated school, you're early in your career, but no one taught you how to lead. Right. And now you have all these expectations and you have, you know, all these things you have to do, but nobody shows you how to do them. Right. And so what do you do? Right. So the purpose of it was to draw people to my TikTok, because I can help you with that. Right. Yeah. Um, or listen to this podcast and we'll talk about it. Right. But, um, I think that. I think. So it's a really good question and I think the biggest is just leading people. I, um, think back on just so many things that I did wrong or could have done better or situations that I could have handled better or got walked over so many times. And, um, people were taking advantage of my knowledge and newness to the workforce, basically. Right. Um, but it made me stronger. Right. It made me, uh. I learned. Made a lot of mistakes, but I think just the leading the people, you know, setting expectations right. For people, setting priorities for your team, you know, what are, what are their actual requirements and then what are those consequences if they don't meet those? Right. Um, if people don't have clear expectations of what it is that you want them to do, um, you're not going to have a good outcome in the end. And I think it took me a very long time to realize that.

Speaker A: Uh-huh. I would say that you're in the majority there, um, when it comes to leading people, because it's a balance in, you know, I've lately have been, um. I wouldn't say it's quite an obsession, but a concept that has been kind of floating in my mind is this idea of that you have a business that in a way is its own organism. And you can argue, well, a business isn't. Doesn't have any life to it. That's true, but it does. It's a shell for life. But we don't talk about how those inter. Relational dynamics should be. Um, because when you go into a workplace, the, the moral code is always going to exist. You can't smack a person, you shouldn't insult them. Um, but the ethical code of a business is not normal in the context of normal, you know, just interpersonal relationships. And we don't talk about that enough. Because young leaders come in and it's either one end of the extreme. They understand that this is not personal relationships, but they don't view it as a hybrid. And so they're just rigid and they're, they're robotic, we'll say.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And then you have the other end where they view it as a best friendship and it turns into something where lines are blurred and that's not healthy for anybody. Uh, so it's, it can be tough. And I appreciate that response because you got down to something that is so true. Um, so true. Um, the last question today, uh, what kind of HR practitioner do you think this next generation, or we'll say the next decade actually needs. Yeah, actually needs.

Speaker B: So I think like right now we're in a really weird job market. Um, for sure. Like, um, I've been telling people like this is not the time to find your dream job. Right. And I can tell you that, I mean I work, you know, the company that I work for now or this is one of the most valuable companies in the world. And we're not hiring people. We're only hiring people that are highly skilled in the role that they're applying to, if that makes sense. Um, we're not hiring people that are like 50% skilled or 80% skilled. Like, we're looking for highly skilled people in whatever it is that we're looking for. And we're getting 10 times the applicants per requisition. Right. And so it's very easy for us to find tenured employees. Right. To fill jobs. So I think you're new, early career, new the workforce or you're looking for that dream job. It's going to take you a while, um, to get there. So I think. And I don't know if that'll improve right away. So I think over kind of the next 10 years, the HR, um, person that we need is definitely aligned to what good talent looks like and helping to push that and helping to be part of that. And I think and pivot with that. It is your internal talent. Right. I think being more in tune to what the bring in talent is or the new joiners are and then being more attuned to your current workforce. Right. Like who, um, knowing where people want to go next. Right. What is the succession planning looking like for your team? Um, really moving away from these transactions, um, and more to in tune with that front face. And I think our employees are going to expect that more. I think it's like such a turning point of that people just don't like hr. Um, like, there's just a point where it's going to balloon and explode. And so, like, what is next? Right? And I think the companies that, um, are best at taking care of their employees, because their HR teams are trained to do that, will take the best talent and will be the strongest companies. Right. I think that all comes from COVID There's just a complete flip to how, you know, HR interacts, treats, and works with their employment, employees in their workforce. Uh, it's a long answer, but I think that's kind of like. It's like that bringing in your talent and then taking care of your talent kind of comes in to play.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. No. Then that was well, well answered. And, you know, you said something there. The mentality of not liking hr, it's eventually going. It's a balloon that's going to explode. And I think there's a lot of legitimacy to this idea that it's really easy to dislike something you don't understand.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And we don't do a good job of a lot of things in society. And, you know, both of us are on TikTok. And it seems hypocritical or contradictory to say that the algorithm ruins things, because the algorithm helps us. Um, but the polarization of information is not one that is a mirror or challenges folks. It reinforces ideas that are just. That they're not, uh, they're just ideas. They're not actual reality. And I think that makes it even more interesting for HR professionals because I don't know if it's fact, but it feels a lot of time you enter into not just the workplace, but conversations already having to defend yourself. And that's a hard. It's hard to find any common ground there.

Speaker B: Yep, exactly. Very true.

Speaker A: Well, my friend, I appreciate your time today.

Speaker B: Uh, thank you for having me.

Speaker A: And for those of you that, yeah, it has been fun and it's been nice to actually see, you know, the person as opposed to just watching on a. On a TikTok. And for those of you that, uh, have tuned in, hope you enjoyed, and please hit subscribe and tune into next week's episode. Sam.