Episode 23: HR, Finance & the Leadership Gap: Why Business Acumen Still Matters

Chase: M. All right, thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Overall hr. And today I'm super excited for our conversation. We have Bill Martin, who is just up the road for me. Usually I have conversations on Zoom and I meet people that's all over the US but this is cool because we could meet for coffee. Bill. We're, um, right up the road, so I could introduce Bill. Um, but who better to introduce Bill than Bill himself?

Bill Martin: Great. Well, um, thank you, Chase, and thanks for having me, uh, today. So, hi, everybody. I'm Bill Martin. Uh, I run a, uh, leadership coaching consulting business called, uh, Leading with Bill, uh, where I focus on helping people grow and develop and reach their full potential. I, uh, am a, uh, HR professional. Been, um, in the business for over, uh, 25 years in various HR and leadership roles and really, uh, happy to be here today.

Chase: Perfect. I love that. Well, um, being in HR and in various leadership roles, that makes you a perfect candidate, uh, for this show. So for those of you that are maybe a first time listener at Overall hr, it's a name with three meanings. We're Overall hr, where we talk about just general HR practices, and we're Overall HR because a lot of the folks that we speak to are solo HR practitioners. They're operating a function in, uh, that traditional HR generalist role. And then the last piece, which I think every HR professional kind of faces this crossroads per se, where you're just Overall hr. Just forget it all. I want to walk away. Um, so with that, um, the first portion of the show is your origin story, just that overall HR standpoint. So, Bill, how did you originally end up in hr? Was it a choice, a calling, or was it an accident?

Bill Martin: Um, can you say all three? Um, uh, so I started out my career, uh, actually, as in accounting. Um, I had my education, bachelor's degrees in accounting, uh, just right up the road here in Georgetown College from us. But, um, really spent the first eight years of my career in various accounting and finance roles. Uh, but I had an opportunity to participate in career fairs and be part of the recruiting team that would go around to different colleges, universities. And I really enjoyed the recruiting aspect, uh, meeting potential candidates, especially folks that were, uh, coming out of college and looking at career opportunities. Uh, and from that, I also had a VP of finance at the company I was at at the time, which is Lexmark. Uh, she made a transition from finance to being the VP of hr, uh, at Lexmark, and I had several conversations with her, was piquing my interest around some of the career Fair and recruiting work that, uh, was participating in. And also just felt like I didn't want to be a CFO one day. And so with that, she encouraged me to shift into human resources. And so my first role was in recruiting and, uh, got to actually then recruit full time for the roles in finance, um, that I had been a part of.

Chase: I love that. Well, I'm going to put you on the spot and kind of go off script here, um, and I will be transparent with you. I'm critical of HR roles being under accounting and I talk about this a lot on my TikTok. So I'm curious to hear your take and I'm not trying to gaslight you or prime a certain answer. What would you say to the HR professional like myself that is critical of HR roles that are wrapped under accounting or dual HR accounting roles? Is it possible to be effective?

Bill Martin: Well, I think it's best for HR to be separate from finance. I think the HR function, the leadership, um, should report directly into the, whether it's the CEO or the owner of an organization and not be under the umbrella of finance.

Chase: Okay.

Bill Martin: Um, it's, uh, I think there's an opportunity for HR to have more of a strategic voice when it comes to the, uh, leadership of the company and that type of a structure. Um, with that, I will say the benefit that I feel like that I gained in being in finance prior to coming into hr, um, is having that business acumen. So I do think that there's some benefit that would be the other side of the argument. But I think from a best practice standpoint, HR should be a standalone function reporting directly into CEO or owner.

Chase: I love that you say that because I think that. And I'm curious to hear your take on this because you've been on both sides and there really shouldn't be sides. But for the sake of our conversation today, um, it's almost like HR professionals lose credibility because they don't have that business acumen or even the terminology. Um, and financial or finance professionals within the business almost have credibility quicker with top decision makers. I'm curious if you agree or disagree or want to, you know, give your take on that.

Bill Martin: I mean, ultimately, businesses are generally in business for profit. I mean, again, when you even, even nonprofit organizations or those that don't always focus on profit still need to operate in a healthy financial way. And so there is always this element of, uh, focus on financials and how do we make the best decisions that are impacting our financial results so that we can continue as a business so there is that aspect there. Um, but I even think it's even broader than just financial. It's even just the market that we're in, uh, that the business operates in. You know, what are some of the internal factors that impact, you know, because of external market factors? Uh, so I think from an HR practitioner standpoint, understanding financials, because that is a language that's spoken internally so frequently, but also understanding the market that the company is in. So what are, you know, go back to some of the old terminology around the SWOT analysis. You know, the strengths and weaknesses, opportunities and threats and those external factors that really are impacting the business. If HR is able to speak to those, you have a greater opportunity of influencing, ah, at the leadership level.

Chase: Mhm, absolutely. Um, I agree with that wholeheartedly. Um, so my next question for you, kind of transitioning away from that, um, what was the first moment that you realized HR was more complex or heavier than you expected?

Bill Martin: Yeah, so I mentioned, you know, my first role was as a recruiter. And, and that was great because there's always this conversation of people, you know, engaging into a new role and there's excitement in that. Uh, but shortly after I stepped into recruiting, I actually transferred in to a different role as an HR generalist. And um, again at that time, that's kind of the current language of hr, business partner type of role. And I supported, uh, two different business groups, uh, finance and supply chain organization. And there were two very distinct moments that made me go, well, this is different because I really didn't know what HR was, but this kind of allowed me to, uh, open my eyes. But the first was I met with the, uh, business leader who was over supply chain organization. And she was explaining, you know, one on one, she was explaining all of what supply chain organization, you know, did, and you know, what the business operations were. And she took about five minutes to quickly go through that. And then she turned around to me and said, now repeat back what I just said to you just to, you know, ensure that I was grasping, I was listening that, you know, what did I hear her say? And so it was a moment of like, I really need to understand what this business is that I'm supporting now and stepping into. So that was the first. The second was a conversation really, um, a meeting that I was in with a manager and an employee as they were going through a performance conversation. And it was one where the performance performance wasn't meeting expectations. And I had worked, met with the manager, coached the manager on kind of the process, but I Sat in on the meeting and the manager literally just fell apart in the meeting, was shaking uncontrollably, could not continue the meeting and communicate. So I stepped in and had that conversation then with the employee while the manager was collecting himself. And it was really, at that moment just the appreciation of. These are some very difficult conversations that we're in as hr.

Chase: Mhm.

Bill Martin: And we have to recognize that these are real people. We have to be respectful. We have to be able to deliver communication that's not always the easiest.

Chase: Mhm.

Bill Martin: Or we have to enable managers or leaders to have that conversation. And so those two moments were to me, you know, kind of the business aspect, the reality of the business needs and also the people aspect, uh, in that role.

Chase: Absolutely. Um, I'm asking you tough questions today, Bill, but you are, you're your person that can handle it. And I feel like I need to tell our listeners, if you guys hear my dogs barking in the background, um, no one is being harmed. We just, I have dogs that are in the other room that are there playing. Um, but back to, back to Bill, um, so I'm curious to hear your take on this because I find myself being critical, um, of managers that are either unwilling or unable to have those conversations with people because I think people deserve feedback. Um, so what is your take on the management capability of a manager that shuts down, like physically shuts down in those conversations? Um, just curious to your take.

Bill Martin: Yeah, um, I'm going to go, uh, back and kind of reference, um, a book. It was published a few years ago. It was from, um, a Gallup poll research. It's called, it's the Manager. And in that research it talks about, um, that 70% of engagement with an employee is driven by that relationship with their manager. So basically, like almost the full amount of work and capacity is impacted through what the manager does or does not do or what they communicate or not communicate. And so from that work, um, and I think there's been some adjustments to that as I've seen culture become a big impact and importance to employees. Um, but that manager relationship is so critical. And so there's been so much focus, which is the work that I do today, uh, but that I've done over my career, the importance of enabling managers to be able to step into those conversations, whether they're difficult around, you know, constructive feedback for employees, or even if they're on the positive side of recognition. I mean, even managers sometimes will shy away from, from some of those even more positive conversations.

Chase: Absolutely.

Bill Martin: And, ah, so the focus is around how do we as hr, ah, enable managers more because they have the biggest opportunity to make a positive impact on our employees.

Chase: You're absolutely right.

Bill Martin: And so enabling them is to me probably one of the top one or two biggest um, needs that we have in organizations.

Chase: I agree, I agree. Um, just for our listeners, I think I know by context, but I'm curious, you're using the term enable. How would you, in this context, how would you define enabling a manager? What does that look like?

Bill Martin: Yeah, enabling is one I think pointing. What's the best practice for uh, a manager? And I think that's our role in hr is to determine what are best practices, uh, within whatever area that we're training, instructing, helping uh, someone to grow and develop. But it's also providing tools and resources, um, because managers I think have the capability to learn, to gain the knowledge. But if they're given specific steps, maybe there's an acronym, an easy acronym to follow that they can take those steps through. And then helping a manager by engaging in what I'll call a dry run of walking through the process

Chase: that um,

Bill Martin: to me is enabling a manager so that they not only have the understanding of the content but they also have the ability then to apply it because they've either practiced it or it's starting to become part of just their language of how they operate.

Chase: Absolutely, absolutely. Well. And you touched on, you gave a little teaser there where you said this is the work that you do today. So that segues perfect into this Next question is what role are you in now and how different is that from when you first started in hr, transitioning from finance to recruiting?

Bill Martin: Yeah, um, yeah, so today I'm a leadership coach. And um, the reason I'm in that today is over, you know, the past, I'll say 15 plus years, uh, of the work that I've done, I've just seen a leadership gap. And that leadership gap is specifically between that first line manager up through middle management. Because so much of leadership development focuses on the executive level. Uh, it focuses on those that maybe are looking to just even get into management. But it's that middle tier that, that seems to, to have the gap and I want to step in and just address the needs of those that are aspiring leaders. Uh, and that's either through you know, one on one coaching is through group coaching. It uh, could be through uh, development, you know, training. Uh, so that's the work that I do today because of the specific need, uh, that, that I've seen there. And I also just have a Passion, uh, that's an area that I really enjoy and thrive in and helping people grow and develop.

Chase: I love that. Well, and this, you know, in my mind. And you also touched on this with the statistic. You said 70%, um, engaged with the manager, 70% of just their job satisfaction. We'll say. But it's interesting to me how many organizations will give even training stipends you see for executives. But in all reality your first line managers are the ones that impact on the job performance and job satisfaction more than those that have a title starting with Chief.

Bill Martin: Yeah, uh, it's true. When we look at the first line managers or middle managers, there's generally not a stipend. It's, it's those that group of, of of management, they're left to either find training, uh, development on like a self directed type of path or left to just go off and find it, you know, either through their own means and financing. Um, which is unfortunate because that to me is where the biggest impact can be made, uh, for employees.

Chase: Absolutely, absolutely. So the next part of our show is where we talk about overall HR philosophy. So I am curious, um, Bill, what do you believe that HR is actually responsible for beyond compliance and beyond policy?

Bill Martin: Yeah, I'll probably give what sounds like a textbook answer here, but it is truly what I believe. But I do think it's HR's role beyond that to um, align our people, uh, culture, uh, systems and processes so that we're able to meet the needs of the business but also at the same time make sure that we're having a great employee experience, uh, for our teams.

Chase: Of course, of course. So um, I'm curious to hear your answer to this. So leadership and even people, there's a lot of people that are critical of HR because contrary to popular belief, um, HR is not very well liked by people within the business. It has quite the stereotype. M. But when you hear leadership and people say that HR is here to protect the company, I'm curious how you interpret that.

Bill Martin: Well, that's not the first time I've heard that. I've actually heard that um, several times almost in every business that um, uh, I've been a part of. And I understand that to some degree and generally my response to that is that you actually need both people and the business being looked at together, um, in order to ensure that the company's protected. Um, so when we look at people, you know, it's ensuring that we're being respectful, um, that we're uh, adhering to all of the uh, requirements that the laws require us too, um, because that's important from a compliance standpoint. But it's also the policies that we have and ensuring that uh, we're applying those uh, equitably and fairly, um, across the board. Um, and then we're looking at best practices. What, what do we need to look at to help us improve, do better and help our people grow? Uh, and in doing that that helps the bottom line and helps protect the company. Um, so it's really, we need to have both.

Chase: I agree, I agree completely. Um, this is an interesting question. Again I'm curious to your take, particularly from the context of the work you're doing now, because I imagine there's an aspect of your role where you um, I'm not going to say encourage, but can communicate the value HR can be to first line managers and middle managers. But where do you think that HR practitioners within a business have the most power? Even if that power and influence is a better word. Um, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say here and I'll quit rambling and just re ask the question. Where do you think HR has the most power even if it's not always used?

Bill Martin: Yeah, um, this is a great question and I think this is one of the, I would say behind, you know, leadership development and enablement is probably one of the second biggest opportunities for hr. Um, but we have a wealth of data that's available to us in HR and most of the time we focus on data that is specific to attrition rates or time to fill or other metrics. And I agree that those are important and we should track those. But I think that it's the next step of translating that information into what does this mean to the business? How does this impact, mhm, business outcomes or team dynamics or how teams are effectively working together or not? Um, and that's the translation I think that we're missing in that. And I'll share a quick example with you because this one to me was one that um, I was able to be involved in and uh, it did have I think an important impact

Chase: company

Bill Martin: uh, that I worked at, we had an international team, um, that was paid in a US dollar currency that was different from their home currency. But there was over about a four year period a significant change in the currency rate. Because of that, employees in that country were being negatively impacted in what was really their take home pay. They had no control over that, they had no uh, ability to influence that. Um, but they were sharing uh, with me and other leaders that there was an impact. So I took that information, did some benchmark analysis both in that country as well as us based on um, did a financial, you know, review of that, partnered with my financial business partner to make sure the information was correct and then went back to the business leaders and basically shared a business case. And in that business case it was we have employees negatively impacted. Here are some options we could look at to either, you know, either true it up or one time, you know, view of that. To me that's taking data information that we have in HR and really presenting it in a way that's providing a benefit to the business. And um, also then addressing in that particular example employees um, that were being negatively impacted.

Chase: And you say there is so important. And it's interesting that you went into the example which I appreciate you for sharing. Um, because I was thinking as you were talking, we have these, and you're right, we have these metrics that are almost kind of buzzwords in the HR professional like attrition, turnover rate. But I don't know that many managers know what that actually means. And to be fair, of course they know what turnover conceptually is. But what does it mean whenever I say that our turnover rate is 40%, what does that mean? And um, how do we impact it? What are the inputs that actually have a direct correlation to influencing those numbers? Um, so that's right. What is one HR best practice that you quietly disagree with?

Bill Martin: It's a big one. Um, it's really looking at performance differentiation and applying um, the stack ranking model and how to differentiate whether it's um, you know, merit allocation or compensation related decisions or even kind of worst case, even employment related decisions such as, you know, we need to do a downsizing or layoffs. Um, primarily I just, I think that process is ripe with so much subjectivity in uh, a stack ranking. Um, possibly not within one individual team if the people within that team are doing similar roles, but when you roll that up within a larger group and organization roles are so different it's hard to really compare. Level of expertise is so different. Stack ranking in my opinion really falls apart um, in the larger organization and applying that.

Chase: Okay, for our listeners. Bill, do you care to explain how do you define stack ranking? What does that look like?

Bill Martin: Um, so in simple terms, let's just say you have a team of 10 people, um, and you basically have to decide based on performance, uh, a stack ranking of 1 through 10, 1 being who's your highest performer and 10 who is your lowest performer. When in fact all 10 individuals may be meeting expectations or even exceeding expectations. But a stack ranking means that someone has to fall in places one through 10. No ties are allowed. Um, so you have to have discussions as to what's the difference between somebody that's placed in a 7 ranking versus the 10 ranking. And again it becomes very subjective.

Chase: Well, I will tell you, um, that is the only time I've ever used something that is similar to that. Maybe it was stack ranking. And I'm curious to hear your take on this. Which we had a metric by which we stacked individuals. Um, and it was not. No one was laid off per se in the most traditional sense. Because a lot of times you hear furlough and layoff and really it's termination with eligibility for rehire. That's a really big pet peeve of mine. Um, and when those terms are used with no intention of bringing a person back, but was um, working in hospitality and we had to furlough individuals with the intent of bringing everybody back. But whenever the um government was slowly allowing public spaces to reopen, if you remember, it was staggered. And um, we had restaurants which was a lot of our staff. Um, you know, housekeeping was impacted by occupancy rates. So we could forecast labor needs there along with um, laundry, uh, attendance. But when it came to banquets, banquet cooks, um, it was just. There wasn't any. There was no work. But um. We had put together a system that stacked. I guess choose your term stack stacked, ranked M recall ability. And we had um. We. We assigned a number but. And I do not remember. I know. Um, our criteria was tenure with the company. Um, no performance write ups, no disciplinary. Um we had four. I don't know the third one. Um, I think it was um. Like whether it was a supervisor like prep cook can only is limited in their competency. They're not very transferable because they don't know how to operate the fry. Um, you know, you get it. But. So we use that. But it was. And using that formula, it ranked them based off of their recall, um, timing. And we would call people and say, you know, we gave them I think a week's notice, which I thought was pretty generous. And if they were not able to return, they went to the bottom of the list. And then if we called them a second time and they still said no, then it was an administrative termination with um. Rehirability.

Bill Martin: Yeah. So I think that that is a good example of where there's an objective metric. And in that um. Again a decision can be made based upon that objective metric. You know, the other one you had mentioned earlier was around tenure. And again, I think again, as hard as these decisions can be, if we're having to make that type of decision then I think at least a very objective data, uh, point such as tenure, most recent hire. That type of um, metric is better than trying to assess performance, um, and then stack ranking it based on again,

Chase: I guess for me I'm blown away that there are people that just. So it's like you're telling me and I'm naive in this way that you've been in rooms or you've heard of situations where leaders get into a room and say here's a roster and we're just gonna, we're just gonna arbitrarily rank them based off of their name.

Bill Martin: Well, what happens in situations is we come up with uh, a rubric that tries to assess performance. And that rubric then would apply to you know, this person and their communication skills is a, ah, one through three. And so you have to kind of place it then.

Chase: Gotcha.

Bill Martin: Whatever the rubric of skills are, then you assess again back to that example with the 10 people based on that. And if there are ties there still has to be some differentiator, um, that separates again based on performance.

Chase: That's interesting to me. Okay, um, so this is the next section of. This is what I think is the heart of the show. Um, so where we get some really interesting um, good conversation and good pieces for people to resonate with. Um, have you Bill, ever been asked to enforce something and maybe it was stack ranking, I don't know. But have you ever been asked to enforce something that conflicted with your judgment or your values and how did you handle it?

Bill Martin: Yeah, this is one that uh, I don't look back very fondly on. But uh, the example was I was at an organization and um, they had not gone through and done an engagement survey before. So it was a first time approach. I worked with the senior leadership team and in building out the survey, what the questions would be, how we would handle the responses, what just the overall process to put in place. Um, went through, did um, an anonymous survey with employees, got feedback, and when I initially went through the results there were several indicators that pointed towards the leadership team as having some challenges around micromanagement, not communicating as effectively, you know, kind of a whole host of things there, which is not uncommon to hear that from survey feedback. Um, so as I shared that with the senior leadership team, um, one of the senior leaders came to me and said uh, why are you manipulating the data? And um, honestly, I was taken back by the comment, um, because I, you know, showed this is the data that came in. And you know, we all agreed to the format and the process. And um, after some push back and forth, um, the leader decided that that was not an area they wanted to address. And for, for me, um, you know, one, I think just the initial comment that came back that felt like I was, um, you know, manipulating the data in some way to make the leadership not look in the greatest light. And then secondly, not really taking to heart employee feedback and doing the right thing, the next step with it. Um, that didn't resonate with my personal values. Um, that was not an example of, um, being empathetic, listening, caring, um, being authentic in their communication. And it wasn't long after that that I made the decision that this probably wasn't the best place for me and explored my next step in career opportunity. So that was probably one of the more challenging goals.

Chase: And good for you for making that decision. Um, you know, I'm curious to hear your take. Why do you think so many leaders reject feedback, especially if it's constructive criticism?

Bill Martin: You know, in this particular case, and I think in some other areas, I mean, leaders have a certain approach in how they want to either run their company or communicate with their teams. So there's a variety of approaches that are out there. Um, you know, you could say there's the direct, uh, leadership style or the commanding control type approach. And you know, I mean, it's very effective in a military type of setting. I don't know that many companies where that operates exceptionally well, but some still use that. There's more of a, I'll call it a servant leadership approach, which is very listening. How do we listen to our employees and adapt and um, you know, be more creative in how we uh, approach resolving problems there. So I think there are just certain leaders that are just dug in on those styles and when there are challenges to, to that approach, it's a little bit of a challenge into the way they've measured their own success for a long period of time. And they're not receptive to that because they feel like they've been. They've been successful in their business, uh, and operate in a certain style, and that's the style that they feel comfortable with. So I think that's most likely why those leaders aren't receptive to the feedback. Um, because they're just not willing to adapt and change.

Chase: I love that. And that's a very interesting take and I, I agree with it. Um, I agree wholeheartedly. Um, what do people outside of the HR profession, um, what do you think that they misunderstand the most about the role of hr?

Bill Martin: Uh, well, funny story here. I used to one of my roles, I used to travel a lot and travel uh, internationally on a few occasions. And my family for the longest and I couldn't talk about anything that I did. So my family for the longest time thought I worked for the CIA. I love that they just thought, I don't think he's really working for that company. And it's, that's just a front. But no, um, so there's either that extreme or a lot of times I'll get, oh, so you're responsible for all the hiring and firing. That's, that's what you do. And um, you know, again that's a, that's a big mess. Um, in what it is. Uh, I think the other big misconception is, is people even within a company, you know, that's externally to what we do. But I think even within a company, you know, managers, leaders, employees don't get a full understanding of what HR does. And so when there's this request for information, when there's a need, when there's anything that comes up, I think there's this expectation that HR is going to respond immediately or that they should be at the call to respond in the next 12 hours, um, or whatever that looks like. And so there's this gap of knowledge of what it is that we do. And so people fill that in that well, they must not be doing anything so they can respond to my need practically immediately.

Chase: Absolutely. And it's interesting because it's, you know, people, I think that there is this understanding that HR's only job is to service them. And to your point, well, if you're supposed to be, you know, servicing me, then why are you not responding to my message about you know, X, Y or Z? So I, I understand it but I uh, love the fact that you cover it that way because I think you're so right.

Bill Martin: I think just really quick there, if I could add to Chase, I think as companies roll out like employee self service type of programs, I think even if there's that just perception of hr, it's difficult for an adoption standpoint on those self service because the thought is, well, I want to talk to a real person I need to communicate with. So I don't want to go um, you know, to some self service, ah, menu option to get my answer. I need to talk to a live person.

Chase: Yeah, you know, I'll never forget I worked. You know, I talk about this experience a lot, but it was the best experience of my life when I worked for a franchise, Marriott. And it was just, it was just fun. You know, a lot of HR professionals, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but HR professionals don't want the headache of having to deal with people in certain sectors. Um, and one of those is, and I'm not saying that hot people working in hospitality are any less important or any more important or more fun than any other sector, but hospitality has a lot of turnover and that causes headache because individuals, um, naturally they're just not as bought in because it's not a lot of it is not a long term job for them. It's still an important job, but turnover is high and it puts a lot of wear and tear on HR professionals. But I loved it because I enjoyed meeting people, I enjoyed engaging with people. And we had one lady, her name was Latrice. And Latrice, if you're listening, I'm telling the story about you. Um, she still messages me today. Latrice. Um, Marriott, because we were a franchise, we had our own ess, uh, employee self service login for like adp, but we also had, um, Marriott uses mgs and every single employee has their own login and I was a department of one. And even just managing ADP login was enough. But having the MGS for every employee was a lot as well. But why this was important was because, um, all employees get discounts to stay at other Marriott hotels. And it's a really good discount. Um, I miss it personally. My husband and I were just talking about that. Um, but she wanted to go stay, um, at another hotel, which I encouraged folks to do, but she needed to log in and she kept trying to tell me she couldn't operate it, she didn't know how to do it, which was fair. But she followed me on social media the night before and I chimed back at her and I said, latrice, if you have the technological aptitude to follow me on Instagram, you have the same skill set to reset your password on mgs. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. Um, so, but you know, that aspect, you know, it's just, you're right because I think that for, for employees and I get it, you know, they feel isolated in trying to log in and reset and all this, that and the other, and they just want someone else to, even if it's just holding their hand through it.

Bill Martin: That's right. That's right. Well, there. Even. There's terms that pop up that are still, you know, they're not common. Fmla. You know, ada. All those terms that, you know, you typically. Somebody naturally wants somebody in HR to help walk them through that.

Chase: Absolutely, absolutely. Um, okay, so we're nearing sort of the last part of our show where we talk about why are you crazy enough to stay in this profession? Um, so my first question for you to kind of kick this off is have you ever seriously considered leaving HR or maybe going back to accounting? Um, what did that look like for you?

Bill Martin: Yeah, so then in my experience at Lexmark, and I was there for 14 years, it was the early part of my career, and that's where I transitioned from accounting into hr. But at the tail end of my career there we were going through so many downsizings, um, about. The business had started to really kind of decline, and one of the particular divisions was losing a lot of money. And so we were doing downsizings every three to six months. And I was part of that process, which was really challenging. And at some point I just kind of got to the point I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. This is hard, and it's hard on people. Um, it's hard for me to have those conversations. And so I'm just ready to step away. And so I ended up resigning myself, uh, from Lexmark, and I m. Actually took the next six months off. And I just took some time, had, uh, the very good fortune to be able to do that. I know everybody doesn't have an opportunity to take that much time off, but I really just explored what it is that I wanted to do next. And I tried a few different avenues. Uh, um, I didn't go back into accounting, um, but I did end up back into an HR role. But it was primarily doing payroll, which is a different aspect of hr. Has some accounting components to it. Uh, um, but that was a point where I thought I would be done with it.

Chase: Okay, and you touched on this, but I'm curious. Um, so you took a little. We'll call it sabbatical, uh, from hr. What was it that you were trying to escape? What was it specifically that you needed a break from?

Bill Martin: Uh, honestly, I think it was just all the negativity in that aspect of the work that I was doing. The majority of the conversations that I had been in were around planning people's exit and what that process looked like and what's the conversation need to be and how to train managers in that and, and what is HR's role in those exits? And again, that's just a difficult process and season to be in. And just in kind of reflection of that, I think I just missed the opportunities where there were positive aspects in the role, which is caring for employees, being respectful in that process, and helping people navigate through probably one of the more difficult, you know, times in their lives. And um, I think I took it on more personally than I should have. Um, and so I think that's, that's why.

Chase: Well, and I get that and almost feel like, um, it's, it's almost easier. It's, it's both hard, don't get me wrong here. But it's easier to find peace whenever it's a for cause termination, um, because it's something that someone, I don't want to say deserve, but you get, you're nodding your head so you know what I'm saying. But it's harder to reconcil, find peace whenever you have someone that you know, their family, you know that they didn't deserve it, but it was just circumstances that resulted in their departure. And you're, you're the one, you feel responsible for blindsiding them, um, with that. Um, so next question. What has kept you in the function? What, what has kept you in HR so far?

Bill Martin: It, it really is about seeing people grow, um, and, and really live into kind of their, their full potential. Um, and, and I, again when I step back and I, I see many people that I've had an opportunity to either influence or just be a part of their journey. That's what's exciting. And having those conversations with, uh, whether it's a manager or an employee and either they've, you know, they gone, went off and, and applied their development plan that they put together, they took the course and now they're stepping into kind of the, in their season. Those are exciting to be a part of. And for, for me that's, that's the rewarding part of hr. It's what keeps me there, it's what keeps me excited about it. Um, and it's what keeps me wanting to, you know, invest in other people and be a part of, part of their journey.

Chase: I love that. I love that. Well, the last question that I have for you today, Bill, is wisdom for HR practitioners that may be listening is what kind of HR practitioner do you believe that this next decade actually needs?

Bill Martin: Yeah, I think there's some carryover from things that we've been Focusing on um, one in particular is around business acumen. Again, it's not only just business internally, but it's business in the market. But um, I think that need, uh, for HR practitioners to continue to grow, uh, in business acumen and be a greater impact and force for the company is still a growing need. I think there's absolute need there. Second I would say is lead in efforts with AI. Um, we didn't spend a lot of time talking about that, but there's a huge topic around AI, lots of different opportunities. And I think as it relates to how that you know, people have concerns about how's that going to impact my job and all of that, I think HR can lead in those efforts. Um, so I think HR is uh, a huge uh, component to be able to do that. Um, I also think just being ah, a bridge in again leadership enablement. That continues to be I think another huge opportunity as we move forward. And whether that's through you know, AI adoption or the impacts that that has helping, helping managers even navigate that. Um, and then just in generally how things are changing, we. I think the speed of change has moved so much more rapidly that we have an opportunity in HR to, to help um, leaders, employees manage through those process because it's not as crisp and clear on change management like we started. We stopped. Now we're picking up something new change and stop. It's more of a we change. Well now, now we got a new change. Now we got another new change. Uh, and so just helping the evolution of more what I would refer to as just change agility.

Chase: M. And I think that there's going to be a responsibility for HR professionals to um, sort of be that emotional anchor for lack of better terms for people.

Bill Martin: Yeah, that's great. That's well put there.

Chase: All right, Bill. Well, I appreciate you and I appreciate our conversation today. I know that there are lots of. And that's why I love the show is there's differing perspectives each week for HR practitioners to listen in, learn from and to develop their own HR ideology as they are practicing the function. So I appreciate you and your time today.

Bill Martin: Yeah, thank you Chase. It was a pleasure being here.

Chase: Thank you. And for our listeners, uh, please, I hope you enjoyed one. I hope you enjoyed today's show, but if you have not yet, please hit subscribe and stay tuned for next week's episode.