Episode 20: The Culture Disruptor- Keisha Toussaint on Practicing HR Without the "Corporate Muzzle"

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: So, thanks so much for tuning in to the second episode of season two of Overall hr, and I'm super pumped for today's conversation. We have Keisha Toussaint, and we met on LinkedIn, and all I had to hear from her was that she is a culture disruptor, and that is my kind of HR gal. So I could introduce her, but who better to introduce her than her herself? So, Kesha, tell our listeners about you and, um, how you've landed up. Landed in hr, which we'll get more into in a second.

Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, my God. Thank you so much, Chase, for the introduction. Um, well, hello, everyone. My name is Kesha Toussaint. I'm. I am the founder and CEO of BCCHR. Um, I have been in HR for over 10 plus years, and it was something that I knew I was destined for. Um, more. So I'm a people person. Um, it's crazy because I wanted to become a lawyer, specifically in employment law, but I was like, that's a little bit, like, black and white. I need a little bit more color. So, um, I'm really excited to share about my journey within HR and spill all the nice, juicy tea on the podcast. Um, so, yeah, I'm really excited to be here to talk a little bit more about HR from my pov, um, and how I will say I am the culture disruptor, um, within this space.

Speaker B: I love that. Well, and I have to tell you, Kesha, so my husband, he's an attorney.

Speaker A: Look at that.

Speaker B: Well, he doesn't do employment law, but he tells me all the time. He tells me all the time that he thinks that I should have. That I would have made a good attorney. But I love.

Speaker A: I'm gonna kill that.

Speaker B: I need a little more color. I love that.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: So tell us, Keisha, first question. How did you originally end up in hr? Was it a choice? A calling or an accident?

Speaker A: Oh, it actually was a choice. So when I went to school, uh, in Providence, Rhode Island, Johnson and University, I went to school. My bachelor's was in business administration with a concentration in psychology. And I'm like, okay, what in business do I want to do in? It's not marketing. It ain't finance. Like, what is it? So I had a class about human resources, and I was like, ooh. Like, this is giving me, like, fight the power. Advocacy. Like, okay, let me go into it. So I had that class. It was great. And then I was like, you know what? I want to do my master's. And I ended up graduating my senior year with my I graduated my junior year with my bachelor's and my senior year with my Master's. Um, I was in an accelerated program and I got my master's in Human Resources Resource Management. And from there it was like I knew that HR was like my thing.

Speaker B: I love that. I love that. Um, so I'm sure that you can relate to this and I guess this is sort of like a yes, no question before I segue into a second one which is much more open ended.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I imagine that the educational preparation HR in the academic setting was not the same as the practical HR in the workplace setting.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, so with that, what version of hr, let's go back to Kesha. That grad with your bachelor's and masters, stepping out into the, you know, real world. What version of HR did you think you were stepping into?

Speaker A: Oh, that's a great question. I definitely will say that I thought that HR had, was like more of like authority and influence. Um, I didn't realize how often HR is asked to like, translate the harm into like, like policy language. It was like book by book and I'm like, oh, I don't like this. Like, this feels ick.

Speaker B: This feels icky.

Speaker A: I thought like, hr, ah, was going to be like that moral compass, but it really turns out that what we're being asked by leaders is just to move the needle and make it look like it's straight when it's like all curved and squiggled around and all the things like, it's just it, it don't hit. It was a big, it was a big slap in the face, I'll be honest.

Speaker B: So, um, of course you share as much or as little as you want. I know sometimes HR professionals, you get it. What was that first moment for you when you realized that, man, this is much more complex and a lot heavier than I thought than I signed up for.

Speaker A: Um, I'mma be real honest. I think it was like the idea of carrying secrets. Like, you know that there's this thing that people say like, HR is not your friend, they're not there to protect you. And, and, and granted, I see and I understand that. But one thing that I've noticed is that HR people really hold a lot of weight because employees have HR who they can go to with issues, but HR has nobody to go to. Like, we're not going to go to the CEO because they don't get it. Like C Suite, they're not going to understand. So who is HR for hr? That's something that I always talk about with My friends, um, you know, my professional, um, network. It's like, who's HR for hr? Right. And I think one of the biggest things is, like, having to carry those secrets. So, for example, knowing about layoffs, having to do investigations and the harm before other people. So literally I could be, I could, I have really great relationships with employees that I've worked with in the past, and having to sit across from them, knowing what's about to come, that is the most, like, gut wrenching feeling ever.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and it's tough. It's really, really tough. Like, I think as HR professionals, we hold a lot, A lot, a lot. And I think sometimes it impacts our mental health.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. Um, so tell us a little bit. What role are you in now and how different is that from when you, when you first started?

Speaker A: Yeah. So now I'm a CEO and founder of my own independent hr, um, practice, um, which feels so liberating. It feels like that corporate muzzle is like, taken off of my mouth and I could, I could say whatever the hell I want to say. I could say what I want because I don't have any, I don't report to any company. Like, I, I have clients, like on the B2B side. Um, but I don't have any filter. I can say what I want, um, and keep it real. Right. Um, but prior to that, I was a director of HR at a media company. And it was very different, like, going from internal HR to like, an independent advocate, from making, like, executive decisions to questioning them. Like, I could be, like, publicly question it and say, actually no. And what's also special about this is that when I created bccdhr, I deliberately say on my website to clients, we need to figure out if it's a fit. Because if it doesn't fit and you don't, you know, tag along to, like, my ideologies and the things that I think are righteous, inequitable, then you're just not the company for me. And a company could send me a check for 300k, and as much as I'm like, oh, I take that if it's going against my, my, my, my values for my business and my values for me personally, we're just not aligned, then I will walk right away from it. And that's like, the freedom of it. That's what makes it feel so good.

Speaker B: I love that. I love that for you. And that's important, that's important for anybody to have. Um, and, you know, I'm positive there'll be some questions that tap into your HR Origin, we'll call it. Um, but now I'm curious for our listeners to hear. You've really piqued my interest, um, with what your HR philosophy is. Um, and so when you're talking to those clients, this is what Kesha, this is that ideology. So with that, what do you believe that HR is actually responsible for beyond compliance and beyond policy?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that HR shapes who's believed, who's protected and who's promoted. I love that, I really do. I think that culture happens through decisions and not through like, oh, we're championing the values and we're, you know, like, we're making people happy, let's throw a pizza party. Like, HR is so beyond that. And I think it's really about like how we shape the culture to be and for leaders to actually listen to us. Right. So it's not just about HR doesn't just manage risk. Like, yes, it's a part of it, but we decide we whose risk is acceptable.

Speaker B: I love that.

Speaker A: I think that's the part that's missing. We decide whose risk is acceptable.

Speaker B: Mhm. Absolutely. And I love that you say that because it's so spot on because there always will be risk. And I've never heard of it.

Speaker A: Mhm. Always.

Speaker B: I've never heard it that way. So. So speaking of risk and protection, when leadership says, or even just average everyday people, HR is here to protect the company. How do you from your ideology interpret that?

Speaker A: Yeah, and you know what's crazy? I say this to my clients. I say, yes, HR's role is to protect the organization. I get that. But I reframe that angle and I say, yes, we do protect the company. But protecting the company should mean protecting the people. Because long term risk doesn't. It doesn't equal to short term liability. Like I think leaders need to really understand that if you have a workforce where employees don't feel protected, they don't feel like they're being advocated for. And so, and what? Just so what happens if the employee said, you know what? F this, I'm gonna walk out. The CEO is looking around like, well, who's gonna run the business now? It'll be a, it'll be such a humbling experience. So if HR only protected the company from people and not people from harm, that's not strategy, that's just organizations just being cowards.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Being cowards. Like you got to protect the people who's running the business to generate more income. If you have happy employees, revenue would skyrocket because employees would not have Any problem left? You know what? My company treats me good. I'm gonna go an ah, extra mile if I need to. I'm, um, I'll have no problem staying late to submit this because I know that there's a return on investment, that I have time for myself, that they appreciate the work that I'm doing. But if it's the other way around and it's just about the company to come to protect the company, then it's not going to be a sustainable workplace.

Speaker B: And it seems, and I don't know if you resonate with this because you are spot on. And what you say there, it seems so just intrinsic, like, uh, my mouth is dry, I need water. The company's protected if people are happy. Yeah, but I don't understand, and I genuinely don't understand why there's so much pushback because it seems like. And you're shaking your head, so I'm curious to hear your response to this. It seems like when HR professionals pull that card, revenue will go up. If people are happy, the automatic response from executives is, well, what's the business case? We need numbers, we need quantitative. What's the metric?

Speaker A: Oh my gosh. I think honestly, anytime I get asked that question, I'm like, everything doesn't deserve a business case. How about, let's try, like, try it. If you want a business case, let's just test the theory actually speaking to your employees and, uh, doing what you say. Practice what you preach. If you say you care about employees, you care about dei, uh, you care about all this stuff, actually do the work. I think what, what needs to happen is that C suite needs to come off the high horses, come off the, the top of the bench and come down with the individual contributors. Come down to the battlefield where everybod else and see how things are actually flowing. Right. I think there's a, There was a show. I can't remember the name of it, but it was like the CEO, like, um, it was like a disguise. Like they were an employee to see how like managers interact with others. And they were just like a normal being. Like they are normal beings, but just like a normal 9 to 5 working employee. Like, like Undercover Boss. Yes. I think that's the name of yes. And it's the. I think CEOs need to do that a little bit more because they may assume that people are happy. They may assume, you know, like, oh, we're doing great because our numbers are xyz. Little do they know, maybe it's a crappy market, which we are in one now, um, maybe, you know, people are just like, it's hard to find. Looking for a job is a full time job to look for a job. Like, it's a lot. So people probably are just like passing by. I think they need to actually get in to see like how people are feeling. Because if they say, oh, what's the business case? You do an employee survey and sometimes people are like, um, I'm not sure if I want to answer this unless it's coming from like a third party vendor that comes into the business to, um, do that for them, but nine times out of 10, employees are not going to be honest in company issued surveys. And even if they are, what are they going to do about it? It's going to be the same thing over and over and over again and it's not going to be actionable. So, like, what, what's the point? Like, I'm not going to a business case because even if I show the business case with the employee surveys, etc. It's like, well, here's the business case. What you gonna change? Everything has been tied to numbers, you know?

Speaker B: I know. And it's, I'm laughing because it's, it's a shared resonance the two of us have. You know, we didn't. This is, this is our first conversation.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, and I, we have different backgrounds, but I'm chuckling because it's just, there's something to. Because it's two separate individuals with lived realities.

Speaker A: Yup. Absolutely.

Speaker B: And guess what, Keisha, there's not a metric for that. No, but there is some validity to it. To two testimonies.

Speaker A: Exactly. And what's also, what's also interesting is that if we put 10 CEOs in front of, in front of 50 HR professionals coming from different backgrounds, we don't know each other from a hole in the wall. Different walks of life, different parts of the universe, and we sit and we share these things. They'll be like, oh, uh, so how does this, how does this work? It's just, it's just like a, uh, it's like a double edged sword. And it's, and it's nothing that feels more rewarding than knowing that your fellow HR professionals are going through or have seen the same thing through their tenure, through their, you know, their time in hr. I think that's the more rewarding feeling because I know I'm not going crazy. I'm not just speaking out on my ass. I'm like, oh, like, yeah, like I'm just gonna say this because I'm emotionally like, no, it's a real thing. It's a real thing.

Speaker B: Spot on.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so here we're kind of getting into what I think is the heart of the show. Um, and you've touched on a little bit of this, so I'm intrigued even more. Um, what has been the hardest moment of your HR career to carry quietly? Oh.

Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. I would say that, like, moral injury to employees. And I get so emotional about this because working in it, like, I'm a. I'm a people person, and I am, like, I connect with people on a level like, uh, m. Most employees that I've worked with, they would say, keisha, like, you are one of the realest HR people that I've ever encountered with, and you make HR so good. Like, you make me feel like I can trust HR again. People have said that to me, and there's nothing more rewarding than hearing that, because I know how tough this job could be. I know that, you know, even though HR doesn't make the decisions, we're just the. The. The. The messenger, right?

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: And one of the things that bothers me the most, specifically being a black HR professional, is watching that harm get repeated over and over. Knowing systems protect patterns, so it doesn't protect the people. It protects the pattern of, like, the toxic behavior, etc. And the hardest part wasn't just enforcing those decisions. It was watching the same people pay the price. And in my case, I've seen a lot of, like, people of color, but more so specifically, black people get terminated when they speak up. Um, it's like a form of retaliation. But organized organizations do it in such a sneaky way of like, oh, you know, like, it's a restructure or the role is changing, so it's not a good fit anymore. And I've seen. I've had to lay off people that I was, like, really good friends with. Um, some stop speaking to me because, again, like. And I get it, because it's like, dang, Keisha, we were friends, but I'm like, listen, I got a job to do. This is not. This is not Keisha's decision. This is HR director decision. Right? The company's decision. Right? And I think that that where that disconnect comes into place of, like, this is not a personal decision. This is a business decision. So I'm speaking on behalf of the business. Um, and I. It's. It's the fact of, like, knowing that me delivering news can literally alter someone's life. Having to sit with, knowing that we're about to do a massive layoff, for example. And I'm interacting and I'm talking to these people like, oh, my God, my son just had a great birthday. Or my best friend's getting married and we're traveling and I'm sitting and I'm like, oh, my goodness. Like, I legit need to have a conversation with them on Friday morning, letting them know they don't have a job, that you're about to lose your job, and I can't do anything about it. That is the most, like, gut wrenching. Like, that is like the hard. One of the hardest moments would be having to deliver the. The bad news, like, and having to sit with it. It's like, I know it's a part of my job, but it's like you could feel like someone's like, choking you and, like, my throat would get dry. It's like the worst. And one of the. One of the hardest things that I had to do was lay someone off after they came back from maternity leave. Because I had just come back from maternity leave and I'm a mom of two and in my head I was like, with, uh, the employee that I was working with at the time, I was like, this, this should happen before. Let's. Let's do this beforehand. So. And pay this individual their time, but give them the heads up. They got months to plan. I know they're taking care of a baby, but it hits less than doing it after they're coming back from M. Bonding with their child. Like, that was one of the hardest ones that I've ever had to do because it resonated with me personally, being a mom and just coming from maternity leave.

Speaker B: Yeah, that is tough. Yeah, that is. That's.

Speaker A: That was a tough one. And I cried. Like, I had to be like, good thing I had my little dark glasses, because the tears were flowing. Chase, when I tell you the tears were flowing. And I was like, who? I gotta hold it together. But quite honestly, I didn't even care. I was like, f this, I'm a human first. And if the tears are gonna flow, that's just my body reacting to something that's natural. I'm not gonna stick to the script and read xyz. No, I'm not. I'm not going to do it.

Speaker B: And good for you. There's an element of that, you know, Um, I don't know if you're on TikTok M, but, um, you know, I had made a TikTok. Um, that was. And that was the story. Is that telling someone? And it was like a lyric overlay to the Justin Timberlake Mirror song and manager, like, trying to get them to hold back their tears. But for me, in instances like that, people that don't understand nuance will never understand hr.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And when you're terminating someone for a performance based reason, I had one manager that I worked with that would cry every single time. And you can't convince me, Keisha, that it was a show to absolve themselves of the responsibility of a performance based termination.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: That's not the same as what you're talking about.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And, um, so, you know, it's. It's not. It's not apples and apples. But to your point, in those circumstances where it's a company decision that is not tied to a person's worth as a professional, and the timing is just unfortunate and unfair. Unfair. Yeah. I, um, think it is entirely appropriate for the person to see you as a person and not a person. To your point. That's reading from a script.

Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. Yep.

Speaker B: So, um, uh, what. What do people outside of HR most misunderstand about the role from. From your.

Speaker A: Your perspective, I would say. And I'm laughing because this is something that I'm sure you would probably. You have probably heard this before. Um, HR is only there to hire and fire you. Uh, HR is the principal's office. So if someone said, like, oh, you're going to, uh, hr, I wanted to chat with you, they're like, ooh, you're going to the principal's office. Like, you're in trouble. Lo and behold, we might have some good news. Like, hey, we want to promote you. X, Y, Z. It's. It's like, I think HR gets misunderstood so much. Um, and again, I feel like the people who don't do HR for people make. Make the people who are in it for the good reasons look so bad. Because I've seen really great hr and I've seen some shady HR and shady hr, I'm not afraid to call out. I'm like, yeah, no, you, not you playing games.

Speaker B: You and I could be really good friends. Because I'm the same.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm like, you should not be in this line of work if you want to not be there for, like, it's in our name. Resources for humans. Like, what are you doing? Like, why are you like, yes, CEOs are humans too, but the population of employees, like, it's your job as HR to say, okay, this isn't right. And this is where Wrong. Like it's like it's a double edged sword because sometimes there are employees that do crap, right? And then there's sometimes that they do things that they're like leaders. I'm like, managers are very, sometimes some managers are green. And you're like, why would you make this decision? Like this doesn't make any sense. And you coach them through that. Of like, no, this is uh, not what you're going to do. And I've done that so many times in my careers and a lot of managers didn't like me because they're like, no, we need to get them terminated now. And I'm like, actually no, I'm not doing that and I have to sign off on it. So I'm not doing that. Yeah, best of luck, try again. But the part of it where I'm like, dang, I wish I could tell this person this, but I can't tell them. So now, now I could tell everybody what I want because I work for myself and I'm independent hr. So that's the beauty of it.

Speaker B: That's. I, uh, feel that. Yeah. And I'm curious to hear your take on this, Keisha. And I don't know, I don't know your transition story. And we're going to get into some questions. Yeah, that's going to tap into that a little bit. But in my opinion, and you're free to disagree here, um, good. HR is the willingness to speak up, but also the acceptance and willingness to walk away.

Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. I agree to that 100%.

Speaker B: Mhm. And an HR professional that will contribute. I'm not going to say cause, but enable harm. All under this excuse of. That's just my m job. You're worse. You're worse because you're enabling. You are pouring, you're fanning that flame of harm that is within the systems you're talking about.

Speaker A: Exactly. And I think that there, that's where the lack of accountability comes into place. I'm like, oh, that's beyond my scope. That's not a part of my job. Listen, if HR professionals are not afraid to speak up, I think that the importance here is, is really understanding, like, is this right or is this wrong? Like you have the ability to speak up. And regardless of what level you are in hr, if you are a coordinator, of course, sometimes it might be a little bit uncomfortable. But like calling it out of like, um, I don't think this is equitable. I think that this can give the company some backlash or tap into your network if you're not really sure. But enabling the behavior makes you worse than the person who's doing the bad trade. It makes it so much worse. It's like, then what are you here for? Like, you might as well just like just be the EA for the C suite or working alongside with the manager. Like you shouldn't be in hr. What's the point?

Speaker B: Well, because it's one of those things and I will just go on record and say, um, and I really don't care anymore. I could not work in internal HR in today's political climate.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Um, because I can't tolerate it. I just can't tolerate it.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: And I think a lot, um, of our administration and the same people that would say we would question morals and now you're standing side by side when you're aligned with this person that you know is doing wrong, you've been on record that it's doing harm. And I'm, I'm correlating this to an HR professional. You're worse because you're enabling it. And you're also telling the entire world you have no morals, zero self respect. And how are you going to explain yourself when you're no longer inter. Inter correlated.

Speaker A: Exactly. And exactly.

Speaker B: I just can't deal with it.

Speaker A: It's disgusting. I'm just like, oh, like bombastic side eye to you because I just, I will look at them like, what are you doing? Like this is like, how do you feel? Like, how do you feel about this decision? You feel good about it? Like you have a conscience?

Speaker B: There's no way they do. There's no way they do. They lie to themselves every single day. And HR professionals do this as well. And so that's why when I get a lot of the hate.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: I pause because I get it. If I worked in that environment for an HR professional, I would have the same outlook too. It's a live reality. That's honestly more common than having an HR professional like Keisha as your HR rep. Yeah. It's more common to have one that enables the harm.

Speaker A: Oh for sure. Absolutely. They get uncomfortable when you have the HR that speaks up and that, that actually advocates for the employee of like, hey, here's the risk. And I'm going on record to say blase blah, because I've done it where there's leaders that I've worked with in the past that like, kind of like, oh, like this is our final decision. Okay, no problem, sweetheart. Here's a documented email following up of the decision that you wanted. And I'm going to Put in writing what my suggest was. So if something was to happen, I got it on record that you went against my advice and my suggestions. And if any repercussions come from that, I don't want to hear it. That is a you problem, not a Keisha problem.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I uh, um, I will tell you this story um, because you know, we have a little bit of time and I'm curious to hear, hear your feedback of it. Yeah. So in my last experience, um, where I realized this is internal is not for me right now, internal hr, that is, um, we had directors. It was um, an executive team. And if you are a director, you actually got a vehicle, a take home vehicle that was yours to drive. And we were kind of, we were enmeshed in this system that was highly centralized and because of the central nature of decision making, primarily in support functions like it, HR and finance, the centralization was causing an impact to customer service, uh, because of the bureaucratic chain. That's natural.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: With that. So we were pushing for a long time for um, hiring a director of IT at this location. And I reported directly to um, the top decision maker, which was good. But that top decision maker, um, it's central Kentucky. You can probably think through what that top decision maker. Um. Yeah, I'll just leave it at that. I know what you mean. Um, the demographic of um workforce was predominantly white male. It really was. And I want to be very careful and you can go to my LinkedIn and see and it'll click. It'll click.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Predominantly white male. So our pool of candidates, um, but was that. Mhm. But they were so rigid in that we could not hire a diverse person. Um, because a lot of our functions, those non support functions, you did have to have that relevant experience like 95% approximate the workforce is white male. Mhm. But it is not that way. You do not have to have that specialized. And so I had said I'm really gonna go in hard here to find someone that doesn't check these traditional boxes. Because at this workplace we had two individuals that were non watch. M. We had maybe we'll say 10 that were. Well no, no, there's 30 women but.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: None. Only two in a director level position. They were all administrative assistants. M. So the culture there was very, very, very. Whatever adjective you want to put in. Yep. When I had finally the, the. The decision maker agreed that it was fine that he said, you know, as long as they're qualified. Which just makes me want to fight somebody because of course they're going to be qualified.

Speaker A: Absolutely right.

Speaker B: You're just casting a wider net.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: With the same pre qualifications.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Mm. And then he says, we're gonna hire them in as a manager. M. They're not gonna have the director title, which, as you can imagine, has an impact to pay band, but they're gonna be on the executive team. And the excuse was, I'm not ready for them to have a vehicle yet.

Speaker A: Hmm.

Speaker B: So I go through this entire explanation of disparate impact, which in my mind, it's disparate treatment.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, and he's justifying it with a probationary period, earning their keep.

Speaker A: Has anybody else gone through a probationary period? I would have challenged that to a no.

Speaker B: Well, that was the beginning of my end, um, at this experience. Um, it was so bad, Keisha, that someone wrote an anonymous letter usps and mailed it about me to the workplace.

Speaker A: Wow. Interesting. That is interesting. I'm calling CAP because I feel like it was someone internal that did that to try to paint you.

Speaker B: I know exactly who it was. Yeah.

Speaker A: To paint you to be a bad person. Because they didn't like the decision that you challenged to call them out. Oh, it happens all the time.

Speaker B: I know exactly, um. I know exactly who it was. But the intent here is to share in that with you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because you and I share in the same ideology, but to paint the picture to listeners that it's not easy. You may end up like Chase and Keisha and say, screw this. I'm starting my own thing.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: But don't stop talking about it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: No talking about it.

Speaker A: No, you don't stop talking about it. Because I think that it starts to raise a level of awareness for people, you know, or other HR professionals, where they're like, oh, like, people are actually talking about this in public. Like, I can do the same thing, too. Absolutely. Why not? Sometimes your peace of mind and your. Your dignity is more than what the company will allow you. Uh, and I say that because at the end of the day, when you walk out of those four walls, you close that laptop. Who are you as an individual?

Speaker B: Uh-huh.

Speaker A: Because I look at it like this. We can work at an organization, but once you leave that company and you go home for the rest of the day, you. On the weekend, you could bump into this person. What interaction would you want? Like, what. What interaction would you want? You like, oh, my God. Hey, this is great. Or would you want to be the person where someone's like, don't talk to them. They are so shady, like. Or just. Yeah, I don't want to be that person. And again, I know I'm not going to be. I'm not going to make everybody happy with my decisions. Um, some people may like me, some people may not. To hell who doesn't like me, whatever. But I know that I could go to sleep. I have a peaceful restful night outside of my kids running the mockery, but I could go to sleep peaceful at night, knowing that I made righteous decisions.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: That that makes me feel good as a person and that I know that would benefit other people. And maybe the benefit wouldn't come from leaders. Maybe the benefit will come from the individual contributors who bust their behinds and. And sacrifice all of their time when they could be elsewhere, traveling, spending time with family. But they're honed in because they have a job to do. They have to do xyz and they're not even being treated fairly. Absolutely not. I'd rather be on the side where the people aren't being treated fairly and helping them navigate through those toxic situations and for them to come up with strategies that will benefit them. That's the side that I want to be on.

Speaker B: Me too.

Speaker A: And I love it.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker A: We're doing the Lord's work.

Speaker B: There you go. Yeah. Um, so a couple more questions for you. I really appreciated our conversation today.

Speaker A: I'm loving it. Yeah.

Speaker B: Have you, Kesha, ever seriously considered leaving hr? And if so, what pushed you there?

Speaker A: Have I considered leaving hr? Honestly, I would say yes, but in a meaningful way. I think connecting. Like connecting what? Burnout. Burnout wasn't just about work. It was really about what was. What was the compromise. Right. So, no, I didn't want to leave hr. I wanted to leave, like, the silence. I think that's what it was. I wanted to leave the silence. Because, of course, in HR there are certain things you got to keep confidential. You can't speak about this blase, blah, blah. I wanted to leave that part of hr.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: That was the part of hr. Ah. That I wanted to leave. It was the silence for sure.

Speaker B: Okay. Do you think I am curious and this is an off script question, because I've heard you say silence a lot. Um, and you seem like a person that values fact and truth. Do you think there's ever a world where there is no silence in the workplace or can silence be meaningful?

Speaker A: Oh, my God. I think silence can be meaningful when it's done right. So, for example, looking at. From an employee perspective, right, let's say someone is being mistreated silence can just be them documenting every single thing and not even saying anything. Right. That documentation itself is powerful.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: So strategic. So powerful. Because the moment you speak up, it becomes an issue they're trying to plot against you. But sometimes it's good to sit back and just like, okay, I'm just gonna. I'm. I'm observing everything. It's kind of like, you know how, like, in those movies where, um, like the. The FBI's might be getting all the gangsters and there might be a big drug bust, and they just watching and just every single move, they're just watching, and when that moment hits, it's like, boom. They wouldn't see it coming. That's the power in silence that I think is so beneficial in the workplace.

Speaker B: I love that. Um, do you believe that HR can. Can be practiced in a way that is sustainable long term? And what I mean by that question is through. Because there's varying ways that you can perceive that question. But I'm talking about. I think that you and I. Well, let me ask it this way. When you were in inside hr, did you have burnout? Um, in a way where now you don't have that burnout?

Speaker A: Yes, I would say when I was in internal hr, there was so much burnout. Like, my. My. My mental health was, like, severely impacted. Like, I was disconnected from my family, my kids. Like, the work volume was just like, we got to do this, we got to hire this. We have to think this. We have to.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: And I'm like, what is going on? Like, this place is, like, crumbling to pieces. Um, and nobody's seeing it. Like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then. And the thing too, like, for me, when I have conversations with employees and just to check in, see how they're feeling, how they're doing? Um, I would. I would. They would be like, keisha, like, I know I probably can't say this to you, but I'm feeling like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, I get it. Like, I'm an employee too. And I feel it. Uh-huh. To a T. 100%. Uh-huh. 100%. I feel it too. And it's like, what's the. What's the point here?

Speaker B: Like, yeah, I hear you.

Speaker A: I hear you have to, like, take it there.

Speaker B: Yeah. So with that, um, having that context, do you believe that in that internal HR setting where you are isolated in a false reality.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Do you think that it can be practiced in a way that's sustainable long term? And if it can be, what are the conditions that must be met for a person to have longevity in an internal HR role?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think what, what it comes down to is being intentional about the leaders that you're supporting. Right. I think when you're coming into a space, I think what's important is everyone is going to have to go through an interview process. And when you're going into an organization, setting that groundwork and that foundation of like, this is how I move as an HR professional, these are the things I'm going to hold you accountable. I'm going to xyz. If it's about holding leaders accountable and that bar is set from the very beginning and those boundaries are made and shared, there's no surprises. Because if you go into an organization, the leaders are meeting you, right? They're like, oh, this is how we operate, this is how we're doing things. But you as an HR professional who's coming in there, you need to be strategic to say, what are your philosophies about your workplace? Like, um, how do you interact with your employee population? These are important questions I think that HR professionals need to have. Because yes, I get it, a job is a job. But if a job is going to cost you, your mental health is going to burn you out, is it actually worth it? I don't think so. So I think that there's always an opportunity to create that. Mhm. In the very beginning, or even if you haven't, if you've been at the organization for five years and you're like, okay, this thing really needs to change, you have, as HR professionals, we have the ability to speak up. I mean, we know the laws and everything. So if somebody tried to be shady, you should know how to protect yourself by all costs, you know.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: And not being afraid to speak up, I think is going to be a game changer. I think HR professionals need to learn and to feel confident that it is okay to speak up. Because if we're speaking up to employees and to managers, why not speak up to leaders? Uh, it's like a trickle down effect. If leaders are on board, then the workplace will be much better. But if leaders are making decisions or they're accepting or enabling bad behavior, it's going to be a trickle down effect. Absolutely, it's going to be a trickle down effect. Not the managers, it's the leaders.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you answered, I want to ask this last question and you answered it partially previously, but I still, I want our listeners to, to hear, hear what you have to say here, because I know it's going good. What kind of HR perfection per. Well, if I can ask the question right, what kind of HR practitioner do you think that this next decade, especially in the United States, actually needs?

Speaker A: I would say in.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker A: And it's interesting because Gen Z is like taking the workforce and then what is it? Gen Alpha? I don't know. It's a whole bunch of gens.

Speaker B: Admittedly, I have no idea. I don't know.

Speaker A: I have no idea. But what I do know is that the generation. I'm a millennial, so the generation that's coming after us, they are, um, they're very impactful. I think that the Gen Z, the Gen Alphas, like, they are very unfiltered and they don't tolerate bullshit.

Speaker B: I love it.

Speaker A: Yeah, they don't tolerate it. So I think having that, like, individuals like you, me. Um, there's some other, um, HR professionals that I think are amazing. Um, I think her name's Jess Winder. Um, and hiba. They are very, like. I'm gonna call it out. Like, it is like. I'm not sugarcoating it. I'm call. I think that having leaders like us too, that's not afraid to speak up and share what's. What's not. Right. Oh, man. Corporate America, watch out.

Speaker B: Inverted.

Speaker A: It'll be in. Exactly. It'll be inverted. There's going to be a lot more advocacy for people. All behaviors are hopefully going to fade out, but at least there's going to be a lot more people to speak out against the nonsense that's happening in these workplaces, um, and holding people more accountable and speaking out more about it.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, Keisha, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. M. And for our listeners who, um. Because I do believe, and I don't say this very often, HR professionals need more people like you, um, and that have your ideology. So what is the best way for them to connect with you after listening to today's show?

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. So you all can follow me all on myself on social platforms. So BCCHR, so BCCD, HR, um, and then also on LinkedIn. Keisha Tucson. I'm. I'm always having a conversation. I'm open and I'm available to connect with everybody. So, um, yeah, I'm just really excited to continue the conversation, to continue advocating for employees and speaking up against, you know, the old way of doing HR and how it's, you know, a much better place to just be a disruptor. It's fun. I love it.

Speaker B: Yes. I love it. I love it. Well, uh, for those of you that listen, uh, to today's show, thank you so much. Please hit subscribe and tune in for more from overall hr. Sam.